I'm sure I'll be one of many that join, with some of the subscription going to charity everyone is a winner! Thanks again Alan for all the time and hard work inc honesty that goes into your videos. Did you do your training with Derek of Tomkat gas training? Can't remember if it was you or another well known plumbering / gas engineer youtuber.
@@waynenixon729 I will add you posts in the community section going forward. We can all work as a team to do video that people want. Thanks again. ua-cam.com/users/AllenHart1community
thanks .... needed to self install a large cylinder (on a boat) and first time ever come across secondary return. thankyou, nice and clear explanation , got it straight away. Unfortunately not practicable in this particular situation due to lack of access to add further pipework, instead fed a 15mm feed (10 metres long) down the inside of the existing 22mm run to reduce the water wastage (more important than flow rate here)
Allen, you do some cracking work for communities and help out gas engineers to. All round good egg. Happy to chuck a few coffee's over. Keep on going pal.
I have fitted secondary pumps on systems using electronic body detectors in bathrooms. The pump is only on when someone walks in. This saves a wedge in heating bills as secondary circulation on a timer is continually dragging heat out of the cylinder. A great idea for just the far reaches of a H&C water installation. Great for domestic houses. As it is not continuous circulation (it is on demand) plastic barrier pipe can be used.
@@elwittinio2865 Legionella predominately lives in the cool stored water in the cylinder. When heated over 60C it goes away. So you heat up the cylinder, as per normal.
After wasting so much of my (long) life waiting for hot water to appear, and learning about this system as a child (and also that most of Scandinavia have always done it like this), I've always wondered why it's not done more often. Just the extra cost, I guess... but so much better than all that water going to waste while you wait for the hot. Great video!
Great video Allen! Couple of questions. What is the purpose of the check valve and where would it need to go? Inbetween the pump and cylinder or before the pump? Are gate values enough to isolate the pump if it needed to be serviced or replaced or would an additional isolated valve be required? Final question you mentioned perhaps needing a largeer expansion vessel what determines whether a larger one is required or not?
I work in the commercial sector Allen and I’m seeing more returns being added to the cold water supply. This is due to new buildings being so airtight and heat efficient that it is warming up the cold water in the pipes, even when insulated.
Hi Alan, I have just installed a secondary circuit on my gravity system but when i start the pump on the lowest setting it blows water into the header tank which is only about 2 feet above the cylinder because of a low roof, is there anything i could do to prevent this as i can't leave the new circuit connected, Thanks
I have a hot water return on my unvented cylinder, annoyingly the people who fitted it put it from a t-section of the regular return and it just had the regular pump running constantly for a 80cm piece of pipework! Obvs knackered the pump.
My hot water tank is in the garage and they have installed one of these. My question is should this be on continuously? What is the best speed , mine is a archergas system with 3 settings. Would i cause any problems by having it on continuously? Many thanks
Many old houses in the UK, probably millions, have water pipes running through and/or buried in walls and in concrete slabs. When you draw hot water you lose a lot of heat into the slab, and with recirculation you lose even more heat even when you are not using the bath/shower/whatever. Maybe an idea to have a thorough inspection carried out before installing recirculation.
Hi Allen excellent video…quick question would pipe up that secondary return along any part of the hot feed in the house and send it back to the cylinder ?
Hi. What household brands recirculate into the top of the water tank like in your video as opposed to the ones like Rinnai that recirculate into the cold water inlet which doesn’t make sense to me if you want max or constatent hot water temps?
Informative video. Q: can two loops be made on a single secondary pump? I ask because we need to feed two ends of a long building, otherwise it would result in a single loop of approx 65m. All new install, all new pipework.
Hi Allen, thanks for the content, I've found many of your videos very helpful! I am wondering with secondary return and the pump working, If megaflow is on ground floor and supply various bathrooms, will there be any pressure and flow drop when open tap in loft ensuite? As I believe circulation pump is working all the time, or it shuts when the outlet is open?
Do you know about any hot water recirculation solution for UK without dedicated hot water return pipe. Danfoss does a solution but it seems to be dedicated for US market. Not sure if that could be used in the uk
Can you do a video for multiple say 10+ out let’s on different floor levels all more than 6 meters apart, by my thinking you would then install tees as close to each outlet would a non return valve be needed on each primary where the tee comes off ? As essentially your going to having multiple small loops coming back into the secondary return main line back to the cylinder ?
I have one of the recirculators that uses the cold line. I want to use it and run it's own circulation line. I don't think my hot water heater has that inlet recirculating line like your drawing. How would I do it to work?
the closed(sealed)system sounds like its on the heating, would not have a expansion tank on a unvented hot water cylinder, hope i guessed right what you was asking
Hello, I’m seeking a piece of advice. We’ve 12 years old Conventional gas boiler at home we recently moved. There is no thermostat so we’ve to switch on/ switch off the boiler for heating. For hot water, there is a separate electric water heating system too. Is it advisable to get the thermostat for the heating system which is costing 250-300£ with installation? Many thanks
Was useful thanks. But this system needs top-quality insulation to help reduce wastage all ready found with unvented systems compared to combi systems. Will be nice to see a video highlighting the best insulation, both from a heat and sound perspective, available in the market.
Hi Allen - thanks for the video. What if there are two bathrooms and a kitchen all at different ends of the house? Can the three secondary returns all be gathered into a single connection to the bronze pump and then into the return boss to the HW cylinder?
You can, but you also then need valves to balance them, otherwise one circuit might rob all the heat. I'm not sure if it's in the video, but it must be copper pipe too
Nice video. Is it essential to have a cylinder with a connection for a hot water return? Or can this be achieved on a cylinder with only two connections (cold in at the bottom, hot out at the top)?
Hi Alan, hope all is well, Please can you provide a video on how to connect heatmiser u8 wiring centre to, ufh and its actuators, as well as 2 wireless thermostats one for the ufh and the other to standard radiators, I have 2 wireless thermostats with switches any help will be great Thanks.
Worked on a barn conversation with another contractor, wouldn't agree to lag the secondary return or the fact that you can't run it in poly pipe, has to be in copper. Walked off the job
I have this type of system with 300 litre tank, being oil fired with solar assist, however when the recirculating pump runs the volume of cold water in the return quickly cools down what at the top of the cylinder, so one only receives warm not hot water, any suggestions appreciated Thanks Doug
I had a secondary return system installed, however, the plumber failed to insulate the pipes and the system loses heat within 20-30 mins of running, meaning huge bills keeping the water hot. I've had to turn it off. The plumber says insulation wouldn't have made any difference. That's not what I'm reading.
See this all the time being in the commercial sector only ever seen it twice in houses and one of them actually fitted a towel rail on the hot water system 😄
You can install towel rails on the secondary return if they are suitable, I have come across this myself. I believe they have to be made from brass and very expensive
Alan if i want to put a connection for return circulation on my unvented tank what fitting do You use after cutting hole in tank ive used one years ago but what is new version I think last one had slot and pulled it with a wire from inside then put nut on ???
I have the cylinder on the loft and the furthest tap is the kitchen tap which is approximately 20/25m away from the cylinder . My question is :Will this system need a secondary return ?
I destratify all my cylinder installs. Tee of the secondary return to the drain off with another tee and link the two. I used to fit a pump but have found it is very good to create its own convection currents and destratification is achieved naturally. Been doing this for 16 years and always works. If there is not a secondary return I tee off the hot outlet to the cold feed and it does the jod too👍👍👍
I've done a lot of reading in to this - in short, the majority of plastic in the UK does not allow continuous circulating under British Standard testing; if a pipe happens to burst your insurance not pay out. Some argue that plastic degrades quickly through oxidation, reducing lifespan by a third, others say that's rubbish. I only know as my builder did mine in plastic, and now I'm trying to get money back!
I was nagging my primary contractual employer (an entertainment business) for permission to replace a 2ndary dhw pump for three months. Yer see, all specific purchases over £50 have to approved by the management. Those pumps are not cheap!! Then the external water safe guys attended to check and issue a certificate of conformity and bollocked ME, as the dead leg return was, well, dead! I got a stern telling off by the manager. Then I showed him copies of my requests placed on his desk, to purchase the pump going back over 2 months. When I got home, the missus bollocked me for forgetting to put the bin out. Can't do reyt fer doin' wrong! The pipes have to be really, really well insulated too.
COULD THIS BE FITTED TO MY EXISTING 15 YEAR OLD MEGAFLO UNVENTED CYLINDER AS THE HOT WATER TAKES AGES TO COME OUT OF THE SHOWER IN THE MORNING??? CAN IT BE FITTED IF THERE IS NO SECONDARY RETURN INLET ON THE MEGAFLO CYLINDER???
No. on the old copper cylinders it was possible to fit a boss outlet but a megaflow is a stainless steel one and if unvented would not be someting could do one self
I have seen one fitted with the DHW return pumped into a Surrey flange in the draw-off tapping on the top of a cylinder. That means the DHW return cools the very top of the cylinder slightly.
If your unvented cylinder does not have a secondary return boss already, it is acceptable as long as it is also in accordance with the manufacturers instructions to tee the return into the cold water supply pipe just before it enters the cylinder. However you also need to bear in mind that Hot water pipework on a system with a secondary return has to be copper/steel because plastic is not designed for permanent high temperatures and it has to be highly insulated because you are effectively increasing the surface area from which heat can be lost. Also any work on an unvented cylinder has to be completed by a plumber with the G3 certification
I'm a new member... worth the £2.99 a month. Great advice and informative content.
Thank you very much.
I'm sure I'll be one of many that join, with some of the subscription going to charity everyone is a winner! Thanks again Alan for all the time and hard work inc honesty that goes into your videos. Did you do your training with Derek of Tomkat gas training? Can't remember if it was you or another well known plumbering / gas engineer youtuber.
@@waynenixon729 I will add you posts in the community section going forward. We can all work as a team to do video that people want. Thanks again. ua-cam.com/users/AllenHart1community
Please specify that you can't use poly pipe, only copper on secondary return systems.
@@garydulson9018 You would need to speak to the manufacturer. Normally we use copper or MLCP that's approved. Thanks.
thanks .... needed to self install a large cylinder (on a boat) and first time ever come across secondary return. thankyou, nice and clear explanation , got it straight away. Unfortunately not practicable in this particular situation due to lack of access to add further pipework, instead fed a 15mm feed (10 metres long) down the inside of the existing 22mm run to reduce the water wastage (more important than flow rate here)
Thank You
Allen, you do some cracking work for communities and help out gas engineers to. All round good egg. Happy to chuck a few coffee's over. Keep on going pal.
Thank you very much.
I have fitted secondary pumps on systems using electronic body detectors in bathrooms. The pump is only on when someone walks in. This saves a wedge in heating bills as secondary circulation on a timer is continually dragging heat out of the cylinder. A great idea for just the far reaches of a H&C water installation. Great for domestic houses.
As it is not continuous circulation (it is on demand) plastic barrier pipe can be used.
Loving that idea, awsome
Hi John. Interesting approach of controlling the pump. What detectors do you use ?
@@goheat
see post above.
How do you overcome the legionella aspect if it’s not used for a while. Like usually they are on a timer, just asking 👍
@@elwittinio2865
Legionella predominately lives in the cool stored water in the cylinder. When heated over 60C it goes away. So you heat up the cylinder, as per normal.
After wasting so much of my (long) life waiting for hot water to appear, and learning about this system as a child (and also that most of Scandinavia have always done it like this), I've always wondered why it's not done more often. Just the extra cost, I guess... but so much better than all that water going to waste while you wait for the hot. Great video!
Thanks very much for your comment, please consider subscribing to support the channel 🙂
Great video Allen! Couple of questions. What is the purpose of the check valve and where would it need to go? Inbetween the pump and cylinder or before the pump? Are gate values enough to isolate the pump if it needed to be serviced or replaced or would an additional isolated valve be required? Final question you mentioned perhaps needing a largeer expansion vessel what determines whether a larger one is required or not?
Stops heat going out of the cylinder.
Just became a memeber. Thanks for putting out these videos. Enjoy the coffee!
Awesome! Thank you!
I work in the commercial sector Allen and I’m seeing more returns being added to the cold water supply. This is due to new buildings being so airtight and heat efficient that it is warming up the cold water in the pipes, even when insulated.
I have never seen it done like that. Thanks for sharing.
Haha 😂 that head popping out the bath. Thanks Allen 👍
😂😂😂😂😂
Customer was so happy he jumped in while filming lol
😂😂
Hi Alan, I have just installed a secondary circuit on my gravity system but when i start the pump on the lowest setting it blows water into the header tank which is only about 2 feet above the cylinder because of a low roof, is there anything i could do to prevent this as i can't leave the new circuit connected, Thanks
I have a hot water return on my unvented cylinder, annoyingly the people who fitted it put it from a t-section of the regular return and it just had the regular pump running constantly for a 80cm piece of pipework! Obvs knackered the pump.
My hot water tank is in the garage and they have installed one of these. My question is should this be on continuously? What is the best speed , mine is a archergas system with 3 settings. Would i cause any problems by having it on continuously? Many thanks
Thank you for informative video. Great you have contribution to charity. Thanks again
Another great video Allen !
Thanks for the content Allen 👍
My pleasure!
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Many old houses in the UK, probably millions, have water pipes running through and/or buried in walls and in concrete slabs. When you draw hot water you lose a lot of heat into the slab, and with recirculation you lose even more heat even when you are not using the bath/shower/whatever. Maybe an idea to have a thorough inspection carried out before installing recirculation.
Hi Allen, Thank you for sharing the information. 👍
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Good video, I wasn't sure how this worked.
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Excellent Allen 🌹🌹💐💐
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Another great Video Allen, thanks
Hi Allen excellent video…quick question would pipe up that secondary return along any part of the hot feed in the house and send it back to the cylinder ?
Brilliant Allen. 🔥🌟
Thanks very much for your comment, please consider subscribing to support the channel 🙂
Hi. What household brands recirculate into the top of the water tank like in your video as opposed to the ones like Rinnai that recirculate into the cold water inlet which doesn’t make sense to me if you want max or constatent hot water temps?
You can get them from most brands. Thanks.
Informative video. Q: can two loops be made on a single secondary pump? I ask because we need to feed two ends of a long building, otherwise it would result in a single loop of approx 65m. All new install, all new pipework.
yes.
Hi Allen, thanks for the content, I've found many of your videos very helpful! I am wondering with secondary return and the pump working, If megaflow is on ground floor and supply various bathrooms, will there be any pressure and flow drop when open tap in loft ensuite? As I believe circulation pump is working all the time, or it shuts when the outlet is open?
Cheers for sharing. Easy to follow videos 👍👍
Glad you like them!
Great video mate.
Just a question.
The pump will circulate into the cylinder with the check valve after the pump ?
Thank you!
Do you know about any hot water recirculation solution for UK without dedicated hot water return pipe. Danfoss does a solution but it seems to be dedicated for US market. Not sure if that could be used in the uk
not sure sorry
Can you do a video for multiple say 10+ out let’s on different floor levels all more than 6 meters apart, by my thinking you would then install tees as close to each outlet would a non return valve be needed on each primary where the tee comes off ? As essentially your going to having multiple small loops coming back into the secondary return main line back to the cylinder ?
I have one of the recirculators that uses the cold line. I want to use it and run it's own circulation line. I don't think my hot water heater has that inlet recirculating line like your drawing. How would I do it to work?
Really helped mate . Didn’t know a few things mentioned in the video 👍🏽
Thank you for taking the time to watch my video.
If an expansion tank was installed being a closed system, would that ever have to be purged occasionally or one time deal. Great videos by the way.
the closed(sealed)system sounds like its on the heating, would not have a expansion tank on a unvented hot water cylinder, hope i guessed right what you was asking
I will do a video about this soon. Thanks.
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Hello, I’m seeking a piece of advice. We’ve 12 years old Conventional gas boiler at home we recently moved. There is no thermostat so we’ve to switch on/ switch off the boiler for heating. For hot water, there is a separate electric water heating system too. Is it advisable to get the thermostat for the heating system which is costing 250-300£ with installation? Many thanks
Was useful thanks. But this system needs top-quality insulation to help reduce wastage all ready found with unvented systems compared to combi systems. Will be nice to see a video highlighting the best insulation, both from a heat and sound perspective, available in the market.
Thanks very much for your comment, please consider subscribing to support the channel 🙂
thanks Allen for your content
My pleasure!
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Good video,why can't you use a normal central heating pump on this system the pumps job is to pump the water around?
because normal pump body is made of cast iron and would corrode over time contaminating the water
@@grahammay1 tanx👍
Very good question. Graham is correct. Thanks.
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Has to be bronzed mate otherwise it will corrode- used to be yellow pumps but not so much with the newer versions
Ive just fitted one, what a diffrence it made , i didn't time it, i set it on a permanent temperature because its a busy household
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Hi Allen - thanks for the video. What if there are two bathrooms and a kitchen all at different ends of the house? Can the three secondary returns all be gathered into a single connection to the bronze pump and then into the return boss to the HW cylinder?
You can, but you also then need valves to balance them, otherwise one circuit might rob all the heat. I'm not sure if it's in the video, but it must be copper pipe too
Nice video. Is it essential to have a cylinder with a connection for a hot water return? Or can this be achieved on a cylinder with only two connections (cold in at the bottom, hot out at the top)?
After a bit more research I see that using an Essex flange to create an new connection on the cylinder is the way to go.
Hi Alan, hope all is well,
Please can you provide a video on how to connect heatmiser u8 wiring centre to, ufh and its actuators, as well as 2 wireless thermostats one for the ufh and the other to standard radiators,
I have 2 wireless thermostats with switches any help will be great Thanks.
If i do any i will see what i can do. Thanks.
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Worked on a barn conversation with another contractor, wouldn't agree to lag the secondary return or the fact that you can't run it in poly pipe, has to be in copper. Walked off the job
Gary Dulson You can also use some MLCP pipe. Thanks
Is the pump pushing the water back to the cylinder?
Thank you for your time
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@@AllenHart999 I have subscribed very useful for me as a gas engineer & plumber.
I have this type of system with 300 litre tank, being oil fired with solar assist, however when the recirculating pump runs the volume of cold water in the return quickly cools down what at the top of the cylinder, so one only receives warm not hot water, any suggestions appreciated Thanks Doug
But how much for the electricity, since the pump is running 24 hours.
Thank you for this explanation buddy 👊🏽
I had a secondary return system installed, however, the plumber failed to insulate the pipes and the system loses heat within 20-30 mins of running, meaning huge bills keeping the water hot. I've had to turn it off. The plumber says insulation wouldn't have made any difference. That's not what I'm reading.
Could you give me advice about my cylinder is not filling up with cold water for hot water no hot water is coming out any of the taps in the house?
Cracking video Allen thank you soo much for this informative video!
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Gotta say - nice video, well explained :-)
Hi Alan, how are you. Could you put a pressure switch inline with the pump to control the pump instead of a timer on the pump? Would this be possible?
See this all the time being in the commercial sector only ever seen it twice in houses and one of them actually fitted a towel rail on the hot water system 😄
No way that's crazy.
Just really well lag the towel rail. The heat loss is prohibitive if primary services and secondary returns are not really, really well insulated.
You can install towel rails on the secondary return if they are suitable, I have come across this myself. I believe they have to be made from brass and very expensive
Dies it matter if circulation pump is on the flow or the return? Ours is on flow just now, but getting a new cylinder fitted shortly.
The pump is normally on the return. Thanks.
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Alan if i want to put a connection for return circulation on my unvented tank what fitting do
You use after cutting hole in tank ive used one years ago but what is new version
I think last one had slot and pulled it with a wire from inside then put nut on ???
I have never done that. You would be best to give the manufacturer a call and ask them. Thanks.
What if you have multiple hot water out let’s? You you put one tee per appliance? Or just one tee on the furthest appliance?
Very good question. You have it as the loop in the video, Then you use multiple tees. Thanks.
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Im currently promoting this channel, GB Mr Hart
Many thanks. Hope you are well.
Very useful info thanks
Thank you so much, really enjoying your videos! you are very clear in you explanation and it is sinking in. :D
Do you only have to tie the return from the furthest fixture ? What about the rest of the fixtures ?
Normally just on the furthest. Thanks.
How far Pretty much should that sink be to use a secondary return?
Not sure what you are asking? Thanks.
I have the cylinder on the loft and the furthest tap is the kitchen tap which is approximately 20/25m away from the cylinder .
My question is :Will this system need a secondary return ?
Hi Allen, can you use mpress on a secondary return system. Thanks
Yes
Thank for the info
Very helpful thank you
Are there any combies that have this system?
many thanks
I destratify all my cylinder installs. Tee of the secondary return to the drain off with another tee and link the two. I used to fit a pump but have found it is very good to create its own convection currents and destratification is achieved naturally. Been doing this for 16 years and always works. If there is not a secondary return I tee off the hot outlet to the cold feed and it does the jod too👍👍👍
Yom man good teacher
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Allen why has the sec return to be copper and not plastic??
I've done a lot of reading in to this - in short, the majority of plastic in the UK does not allow continuous circulating under British Standard testing; if a pipe happens to burst your insurance not pay out. Some argue that plastic degrades quickly through oxidation, reducing lifespan by a third, others say that's rubbish. I only know as my builder did mine in plastic, and now I'm trying to get money back!
When my human is fully cooked do I need to add anything?
😂😂😂
I don't understand that 25% connection on the return. Can somebody explain?
Helpful
I was nagging my primary contractual employer (an entertainment business) for permission to replace a 2ndary dhw pump for three months. Yer see, all specific purchases over £50 have to approved by the management. Those pumps are not cheap!! Then the external water safe guys attended to check and issue a certificate of conformity and bollocked ME, as the dead leg return was, well, dead! I got a stern telling off by the manager. Then I showed him copies of my requests placed on his desk, to purchase the pump going back over 2 months.
When I got home, the missus bollocked me for forgetting to put the bin out.
Can't do reyt fer doin' wrong!
The pipes have to be really, really well insulated too.
Thank you for taking the time to watch my video.
pretty helpful
What is a tank lock that was mentioned at 6:03?
* time clock
Whats the solution for long runs on a combi if any
Thats a really good question, The answer is don’t install a combi. Thanks.
@@AllenHart999 lol what if your already padt that point 🤔🙈
@@Zaine22 Not much you can do then. Sorry
@@AllenHart999 thats what i thought
👍👍👍👍👍
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COULD THIS BE FITTED TO MY EXISTING 15 YEAR OLD MEGAFLO UNVENTED CYLINDER AS THE HOT WATER TAKES AGES TO COME OUT OF THE SHOWER IN THE MORNING???
CAN IT BE FITTED IF THERE IS NO SECONDARY RETURN INLET ON THE MEGAFLO CYLINDER???
No. on the old copper cylinders it was possible to fit a boss outlet but a megaflow is a stainless steel one and if unvented would not be someting could do one self
I have seen one fitted with the DHW return pumped into a Surrey flange in the draw-off tapping on the top of a cylinder. That means the DHW return cools the very top of the cylinder slightly.
If your unvented cylinder does not have a secondary return boss already, it is acceptable as long as it is also in accordance with the manufacturers instructions to tee the return into the cold water supply pipe just before it enters the cylinder. However you also need to bear in mind that Hot water pipework on a system with a secondary return has to be copper/steel because plastic is not designed for permanent high temperatures and it has to be highly insulated because you are effectively increasing the surface area from which heat can be lost. Also any work on an unvented cylinder has to be completed by a plumber with the G3 certification
Just tee it back into the cold feed just make sure you fit a non return valve
@@rickbaguley7997 would teeing into the cold feed cause the f+e tank contents to get gradually heated by convection?
👍
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👍👍👍AL ❤️U MAN
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@@AllenHart999 already subscribed have been for ages 🤜🤛👍👍👍
@@paul_my_plumbs_uk Thank you. UA-cam doesn’t show us.
Speak southern English dude
👍👍👍👍👍👍
Thank you for taking the time to watch my video.
Super video many thanks
@@steveturner7642 Thank you for taking the time to watch my video.