Most excellent. I built a very slippery Velocity XL-5 RG. Some of my pilot friends asked how it handled aerobatics. I replied “I’ll never know because I fly it like a mini airliner. I take off, engage the autopilot, slow down to or below maneuvering speed when choppy and disengage the autopilot entering the pattern”. Kept me and her safe for the six years we were together.
Thanks for the video Scott. Since I'm a doctor I don't fly a bonanza. Interestingly, earlier today before seeing this video I was flying back to our air park In my 182 , but because of low ceilings I had to divert and shoot an instrument approach to a nearby airport. Though I was well prepared Including a thorough briefing of the approach as I turned toward the second approach fix I put myself into a slightly unusual attitude. Recovered just fine and successfully shot the approach with no drama. But from these incidents it's easy to see how quickly things can get out of control. There has to be an instantaneous and correct response it seems to me and I resisted looking up out the window and kept my eyes on the panel. I do train unusual attitudes multiple times a year. If it's bumpy I slow down to maneuvering speed and if it's a little bit more than bumpy I slow down to turbulence penetration speed. A friend of mine makes fun of me for slowing down during these circumstances but I don't need to be anywhere very fast. Additionally, there was a thunderstorm moving in that was still about 25 miles away but had that been closer I would have turned tail and gone the other way. I do my best to stay out of cb. Thanks again for your very informative and educational videos.
@@FlyWirescottperdue Thanks Scott. I realize I will never have anywhere near the experience or ability you have. So, I use meticulous planning, checklists and repetition so that I don't have to use the superior skills that I do not have. However, some day would love to take some aerobatic lessons from you. All best.
I loved the BPPP training and flight checkout when I got my F33A. Door opening, manual gear extension, all kinds of simulated emergencies. A great day of flying and it has definitely come in handy when things later happened!
An aerobatic pilot told me when test flying experimentals and flying my biplanes is pull throttle amd push some negative and roll out don't pull through. And another trick is an airplane can stall at any airspeed or attitude, unless it's at or near a zero G loading.
How many pilots are flying right now that just don’t have a clear grasp on your talking points concerning the airplane they are flying? Spot on Scott, thanks again.
My instructor and I were flying a charter passenger from El Dorado, Arkansas to Wichita, Kansas in an almost new A36 in the mid-1970's. When we leveled off after departing El Dorado, the top of the door popped open because the latch came apart. We continued the flight all the way to Wichita with the air screaming over the gap above the door. After we landed at Wichita, I borrowed a few tools, removed the door from the plane, carried it into a building (it was cold outside), turned the door upside down and shook the parts out of the door, reassembled the latch, reinstalled the door on the plane, and flew back to Texarkana. That was a fun flight..
I have had mine pop open twice. A lot of noise, lost a jacket once over Long Island returning from Mattituck Airbase. No big deal just flew it over NYC then descended to Chester County PA to land. Other then the noise there is nothing to it. I agree the Bonanza is fun to fly, delightfully light controls. It is not roll stable and will slowly go off to one side or another. The spiral roll is real. Excellent explanation of the loads that could be incurred in a pull up. The accident was tragic, took his two children with him. I feel awful for the family.
Thanks for your work. As a retired airline pilot myself, you know how much cockpit window opening on takeoff was discussed and what a distraction it could needlessly be. A while back I had the door pop open on my H35 bonanza on takeoff and my first thought was that I would continue to fly the plane for a while and just skip the planned practice instrument approaches. However I quickly realized just how much yoke and opposite rudder it took to have a coordinated airplane. I was surprised at the drag the open door made, not to mention what airflow around the right elevon might have looked like. There was a pronounced pitch down when I lowerd the gear and much more power needed to fly the pattern compared to normal. I could see how a pilot might reduce power initially to keep the speed back , which could become catastrophic quickly.
Gunny presents great insights into the G loads experienced in a steep spiral-information I’ve never seen presented in this way-and the factors that may have led to this specific tragedy. The spiraling tendency of many airplane types and Bonanzas in particular can be a factor not only in cruise but also in circling approaches and “black hole” night visual patterns as well. Knowing why and how spirals develop, how to avoid them and how to recover, is (as Scott says) a Best Practice for transition training. Well done, Gunny, another excellent edition of FlyWire.
Great video. The math for maximum g load as a product of vne and vs is something I had not seen before. The resulting G from a spiral recovery in the context of a trim stall is also something I have not thought about but certainly encountered. This was very enlightening. Thank you.
Took me 25 hours of dual to go from my 172E to the A36 with a 550. Lot of plane to learn from the 172. Transition training with my instructor and proficiency with the avionics is so crucial! Love the videos !
As an instructor I'd intentionaly pop a door to give a student that experience, and also leave the non-metal part of the seat belt hanging outside to get that banging distraction. nice post Scott
I believe the weather was a big contributor to this crash. I'm about 40 miles from the crash site and I can tell you the weather that day was extreme and his flight path was right into the storms.
I haven't flown power in 25 years or so, but I still remember transitioning from a Piper Arrow to the V35B and being amazed at how slippery the V35B was. It's one airplane you don't want to get behind
Scott, as a V35B driver of about 750 hrs, I have had a few door pops. The most important thing I have read is that when the door is “right”, a 5 yr old can easily close it-most think a harder slam is the solution. The top closure mechanism must be carefully adjusted so that a gentle turn of the handle engages the top in and snugly closes by a gentle turn of the handle.
This was very interesting. I didn’t know the calculation for the max g available. Also interesting to see some comparisons to other different aircraft. Great video! Thank you
Thank you for your synopsis Mr Perdue. I only have a few hours many years ago in a V35, the thing I most remember is doing barrel rolls , but yes watch the pitch. A student could get into trouble very quickly in a slippery aircraft like this. Greg Moore Queenstown New Zealand.
I am not sure if my grandfather went through an of this with his 1960 V-tail Bonanza. He sure loved flying it and it launched the career of my late uncle - who finished his career as a captain with UPS. My grandfather was also an over-the-road trucker for Pilot Freight Carriers in Charlotte, N.C.
Mr. Perdue, I appreciate the detailed analysis and comparison between the different airplanes. As i like to call it this is "knowledge gap" material. It initiates a very important conversation about training to use the correct control input and resulting safe outcome.
Dan, I wrote this comment on several prior discussions of this accident. Here is what I commented to JB. Juan, I was hoping you were going to cover this incident. Good analysis. As you know I fly a V35B and I wrote this comment on Flight Solutions comments the day they posted. Look at the pilot's background that's available. First he got his PPL in 2016, second he graduated med school in 1987, that makes him about 60-62 years old. We don't know his total hours but I would say less than a 1,000. He was flying at IFR altitudes so I would assume he had an inst. rating. (now confirmed) third, He owned the subject airplane for perhaps six months or less. It appeared to have radar (pod on wing). It had a Garmin 750 and an Aspen. I looked at for sale photos from 2023. Fourth, It also appears he used his auto pilot all the time even on short flights, i.e., less time hand flying. (similar to the C340 crash of N7022G). Fifth, old Photos also showed an IAS at 5,000' of 144 kts at about 23-24" and 2,300 rpm. And when fighting headwinds, you normally fly as fast as you can to limit the time in the headwind as he was fighting headwinds of at least 20-30 knots the whole trip. Sixth, His ground speed was about 125-130 kts for almost the whole cruise part of flight. Seventh, No probable fuel issues as his capacity was 120 gal. Eighth, And one report had convective activity in the area. Ninth, This 1966 V35TC Va is 134kts at gross weight (3,400# without the Osbornes). So he was in probably turb at an IAS 20 kts or more over Va and it's a 56 year old airplane with about 6,000 hrs. Most io-520 V-tails can indicate about 150 kts at his altitude at 65-75% (my V-tail indicates 148 kts at 11,500' at 59%). Was his radar inop? Did he get a good wx brief? gottagetthereitis? Did he not know his V speeds? SD? What a shame!!! V-tails don't kill Docs, Docs kill themselves. Bad training and not enough info and study about how an airplane flys. Required reading should include the book, Stick and Rudder. By the way I joined ABS before I bought my first V-tail 35 years ago and have and read John Eckalber's book and all four of Larry Ball's books. There are two books on the Bonanza, one covers 1947-1971 (Those Incomparable Bonanzas, you mentioned) and "They call me Mr. Bonanza" (1972 trough the date of publication). By the way, Larry Ball eventually flew twin Cessnas (320) and became president of the twin Cessna Flyers maybe 30 years ago. Reminds of the story of the lawyer standing in the chow line in heaven when he sees a Dr. dressed in schrubs cut the line and he asks an old timer in the heaven chow line, "Hey, I'm new here, but I thought there were no cuts in the chow line and that Dr. just cut the line?" The old timers says, "that's not a Dr., it's God, but God thinks he is a doctor."
@@FlyWirescottperdue I know you are Scott, I hope I didn't insult you with that. lol. As I said above, the C340 (N7022G) accident was another M.D. who always flew autopilot. This Doc. appeared to as well. Maybe they lose some of their flying skills. I have a V35B and most always hand fly the airplane. properly trimmed out its like flying a/p and you pay more attention what's outside and inside. And besides (I know you flew real airplanes in the A/F) Bonanzas (and you have a special one) are so much fun and a pleasure to fly.
@@FlyWirescottperdue One of the issues which I think needs to be emphasized is Va (134 kts @ GW, and less at lower GW). I gave a talked on this at the Utah Aeronautics conference recently. You showed the potential convective activity in the accident area and from the flightaware data he was at least 10 kts above Va. And then as you pointed out he continued to probably load up the airplane. This guy as you also pointed out wasn't well trained in the Bonanza. He was an accident waiting to happen. But Va is no guarantee of safe operation as demonstrated by AA flight 587. The over rudder zealous co-pilot made three rapid full stop rudder movements (maybe from supposed wake turb from an earlier 747 after takeoff) in the Airbus at an IAS 250-251 kts which is below the Airbus 270 kt Va and the tail still broke off. The co-pilot was known for too much rudder applications. Part of the problem with the airbus tail was its design using six hold down point, three of titanium and three composite. The composite hold downs broke first. They were later changed to all titanium. But the point is Va is no guarantee, especially in a 58 year old, 6000 hr airframe which the pilot knew no history of.
Excellent analysis as always. I was unaware of the spiral divergence of the Bonanza, until I watched your video a short while after this accident and the light bulb went off in my brain. I've pointed to your videos on spiral divergence, as explanation of this accident since. Glad to see the methodical and evidence based analysis you provided here. Wow, that max potential G load is both illuminating and at the same sobering. It can happen to even the more stable airframes if you get into doing anything dumb, dangerous or different. Also why would anyone with a sensible approach to aviation buy a new plane and not get properly checked out in it before going on a long and questionable flight into known weather?
Excellent review. Not withstanding your personal opinion of a 182s “sportiness”, your axiom of Don’t Fly in the Yellow is one I fully support and adhere to in my own flying.
I was once on a 777 flying into Manila. I was seated at the rear of the aircraft. There was a big storm, and as we landed, the pilot was aggressively using the rudder which was throwing the rear of the airplane all over the place. The stress on that rudder and vertical stabilizer must’ve been incredible and I wondered to myself how many times that could happen before the thing broke off.
Great analysis. As a former flying and aerobatic instructor, many pilots do not understand what can happen when you add high speed and g loading. A slippery aircraft like the Bonanza is fun to fly but demanding. Not much time in Bonanzas but lot's of hours in Barons. I'm with you on the fun factor. All time favourite twin for me.
The "fun factor" became a priority for me when I got my PPL back in 2009. Originally, I was shopping for a Cessna 140, then a Cessna 170, then I settled on a Citabria. After that, I bought a 180HP CS prop equipped Globe Swift, and had a ball with it. I did my BFRs in a local flight school's Cessna 172 (because no CFIs would fly in the Swift with me due to insurance requirements), and while I respect the design for its inherent stability, I hate flying them! Right now, I am trying to get current again after a hiatus from aviation, and am flying a C152. Great little plane as a trainer, but I am looking at a sporty design such as a Super D or a Van's if I buy something. As the soup Nazi might have exclaimed if he'd been a pilot: NO CESSNA FOR YOU!
i had a bonanza many years ago hated it. always in the shop with corrision problems. then the bracket in the v tail corroded out. no parts available and it was a hangered plane. i then bought my 1971 aero commander shrike which i still have, was 9 months old when i bought it. never had the corrosion problems with itl. but it also twice as expensive to operate as the bonanze and it is a lot cheaper to insure.
I had a door pop open in my 185. Slowed it down, full flaps and just before it stalled I pushed the door open , then slammed it shut. Not a big deal, but I won't leave a door unlatched again.
Cessna 185? Yeah you can close the Cessna door in flight because the wing is below the door. On a low wing plane, the area where the door is in a low pressure zone, much harder to close, if not impossible. I heard that people have done a “Zero G” maneuver while attempting to close the door on a low wing, but seriously just land it and reclose the door.
At 12:51 you are talking about 9 G’s. Since I am not a fighter pilot, how much G’s can a body take? I understand everyone is different, so do you wear a pressure suit when doing your acrobatic moves?
Picking up an M series in Sedona next week or after. You instruct outta DFW land? I'm in SA metro area. I'll be contacting you to look into setting up some training.
My dad always loved the bonanza and I’ve flown S35s, 33As, 36s both A and G. I trust the aircraft implicitly but it has to be respected. Cross-controlled stalls are an eye opener I won’t do again, and full power stalls or power-off 180s take time with firm training limits to do safely. Dad worked at Beech since the 70’s and always attributed the bad reputation for Bos to pilots getting a face full of dirt and ripping the yoke back, leading to wing failure. Great to see the math to support it and I wish dad hadn’t flown west so I could talk to him about it. Not to say a speed cuff wasn’t needed for the tail but if you drive the wing beyond what it can handle, the speed cuff on the tail won’t do you much good. If it gets too spicy, keep it smooth and at the least go idle and chunk the gear out. It may tweak the gear doors but it’s way better than “catastrophically disassembling” the airplane. Thanks for the work you and JB do Scott!
The NTSB Preliminary Report indicates that the tail (ruddervators) failed first in that it was the first piece recovered along the flight (breakup) path.
Hello Scott from Sydney Australia. Is the planes POH the only source of performance numbers? Is there more specifically for acrobatic rated planes? 🌏🛩️
The POH for the F33C is the same as the F33A of the same year groups... with differences noted. I'm not realy sure about your question though. What performance issues are you interested in?
As a mechanic, when you say a crash was caused by "maintenance issues", I can't help but think you are implying that the crash was caused by something a mechanic did or didn't do. If the owner/ operator didn't have the aircraft maintained in an airworthy condition, they are the ones responsible. An aircraft is only airworthy when it leaves the shop, not a year later.
Great report despite the shot you took at us 210 drivers. :) How do you practice or train the spiral maneuver (other than carefully)? I have a very fast experimental and would like to work on that control and tendency area. Also like the suggestion about the door -- makes a lot of sense, will start doing that reliably.
Left out of the discussion was the proximity to wind shear and possibly microburst from being vectored near T-Storms. Also the NTSB seems to never look into pilot incapacitation or heart attacks and arbitrarily rules pilot error as the cause.
I had a door that popped open between RNT and MFR in my 172. The wind kept the door shut where I had no worries about falling out. lol My son grabbed a cam strap from the back and I tightened the door. Non Event.
AOPA tested the 'impossible turn' with a few planes, some could do it, the bonanza couldn't. Is that simply because it stalls at a high speed or does it have some bad glide characteristics? is it particularly terrible in a glide turn? does a big stol wing have an inherent advantage in the 'impossible turn'
@@FlyWirescottperdue I just checked your video on the impossible turn. you just talk potential and kinetic energy formula and you do a turn in the air with no reference to runway and you only do it in the bonanza and you don't talk about the significance of the plane model. you advocate knowing your plane, that also means knowing it in relation to other planes that might be better. AOPA tentatively concluded a bonanza was bad as returning but others could do it. maybe try other types, like a stol type like a carbon cub and maybe a motorglider. If the conclusion is that returning is very possible with the right plane, that's an important conclusion, wouldn't you say?
@@JoshuaTootell the AOPA video? ah you mean McSpadden? he wasn't PIC and they weren't doing an impossible return, more of a too slow return and fell short at the finish line because they didn't land right away when having engine problems.
What I see in the data is that he never kept up with speed. He was over tasked and task saturated. He ended up in an updraft in front of thr front coming through and blew through his assigned altitude. Pushing the nose over built up speed without him correcting it which allowed the airplane to overload itself. This is exactly why they call it the doctor killer. And you hit the point of training. Its not just training in the airplane. Its a lack of training and experience overal in this case.
Are you going to cover the Spitfire crash in the UK? I enjoy your videos. Congrats to you, Dan, Juan and the others for reducing the number of deaths in GA. Very low numbers so far in 2024.
The evidence presented makes a strong case for lack of training in this type of aircraft, but I also have to wonder about pilot incapacitation, contributing to the apparent loss of control. Dunno.
Great educational video. That's why I prefer aerobatic airplanes. They are draggy and super strong. Curtis Pitts always said, a wing can only handle so many cycles before failure. Age of the aircraft and the number of wing positive & negative cycles reduces its ultimate load capacity. It may be able to handle 9 g's new and only 6 g's when old.
I understand that many aerobatic aircraft used to have wooden spars to avoid the fatigue which can happen with aluminium. Wood is either good or broken - no in-between
@@kkiwi54 They still do have wooden wings. All biplanes use spruce spars with wood ribs. It’s natures composite material. How do you inspect a carbon fiber spar on an Extra aerobatic airplane? Carbon fiber is either good or broken. It’s typically a catastrophic failure with composite materials.
So I was just taking off one rough day in my V35B with a pilot buddy in the right seat. Within seconds of me mentioning the door popping open risk, the door pops open and sucks a paper check list right out of his hands. 😊
Very interesting video. Have heard the Bonanza labels forever ("Dr killer") but never a real explanition. Thanks. Maybe off topic, regarding the F33C, what is a good source of exactly what was done to the std Bonanza to qualify it for higher loads, i.e. aerobatics ?
It's the human nature. My sister had a Morgan horse that would throw anybody it could off it's back (including her). She loved and rode that horse for many years until it passed.
Hanger talk not accusatory...An accelerated stall seems to me to be a detachment of airflow required for proper aerodynamics by exceeding angle of attack. This doesn't necessarily mean an unloading of the wing. Imagine a boat rudder when the boat is moving. Turn that rudder far enough and it's no longer effective (exceeded aoa and slalled) however is now even more loaded (depending on flight vector and AOA)... take a plane at vne and accelerated stall depending on the flight vector and AOA i feel that the wing COULD be heavily loaded... would love your 2 cents
Travis, good question, but you chose a lousy example. When you stall a wing.... it is unloaded. If the wing cannot produce lift... you have little load. If you don't trust me, read Aerodynamics for Naval Aviators. The rudder on a boat is in water... not air.
If you are to survive you must know your airplane and its limitations. Use of avionics come with the understanding of how they work or don’t. Staying within the envelope can go a long way.
lack of currency kills, had to retire from skyjumping because i couldn't get into the sky enough to stay current. pretty sure flying planes is much the same...... Thanks Scott!
So, the equation works like this... Maximum G available equals (Vne/Vs) squared. This is Indicated and as I mentioned in the video for a 201. MaxG is unrelated to whether the airplane would survive it.
Don’t like the v tail Bonanza since me and the local sheriff found pieces in a peanut field in Sylvester Georgia. 4 people fell to their death after in flight break up. Late 80s.
I really don't well understand the design tradeoffs that would allow such overstress to occur. Not too hard to think about limit stops or other mechanical means....
Tldr: humans like speed and physics doesn't. Airplanes in the normal category like this one have G load limit of +3.8gs. Amd -1.6 or so. These limits are hard to reach or even impossible to reach at slow speeds but when you get fast just small movements on the controls can put you in harms way. There is a speed called maneuvering speed that should keep you from damaging the airplane in the event of high g loads. Furthermore an airplane requires larger control inputs when at slow speeds than at high speeds so we cannot just limit the controls for high speed or we may not be able to go slow. Hope this helped a little in understanding, this is all covered in the traing a pilot receives but can get lost to time if not covered in the flight reviews required every 24 months
Not all Mooney's have that 195 Vne, Use the formula to figure out your G available. Above the yellow line you'd definitely be able to over-G your airplane.
Wrong....iIts not a "massive over G".....This type of accident from a spiraling decent is caused by a "compression" of the Vg diagram due to "Rolling Gs". The envelope compresses usually due to simultaneous use of elevator and aileron or simply the use of the elevator when the aileron is not neutral. All those numbers on the white board are superfluous. The airplane disintegrated way before 3.8 Gs.
![Lp. Сердце Вселенной #60 РОЖДЕНИЕ ЛОЛОЛОШКИ [Финал] • Майнкрафт](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/YoR0pAV9FVQ/mqdefault.jpg)
Most excellent. I built a very slippery Velocity XL-5 RG. Some of my pilot friends asked how it handled aerobatics. I replied “I’ll never know because I fly it like a mini airliner. I take off, engage the autopilot, slow down to or below maneuvering speed when choppy and disengage the autopilot entering the pattern”. Kept me and her safe for the six years we were together.
You may not believe what your airplane is capable of .
Thanks for the video Scott. Since I'm a doctor I don't fly a bonanza. Interestingly, earlier today before seeing this video I was flying back to our air park In my 182 , but because of low ceilings I had to divert and shoot an instrument approach to a nearby airport. Though I was well prepared Including a thorough briefing of the approach as I turned toward the second approach fix I put myself into a slightly unusual attitude. Recovered just fine and successfully shot the approach with no drama. But from these incidents it's easy to see how quickly things can get out of control. There has to be an instantaneous and correct response it seems to me and I resisted looking up out the window and kept my eyes on the panel. I do train unusual attitudes multiple times a year. If it's bumpy I slow down to maneuvering speed and if it's a little bit more than bumpy I slow down to turbulence penetration speed. A friend of mine makes fun of me for slowing down during these circumstances but I don't need to be anywhere very fast. Additionally, there was a thunderstorm moving in that was still about 25 miles away but had that been closer I would have turned tail and gone the other way. I do my best to stay out of cb. Thanks again for your very informative and educational videos.
Great story Frank! Thanks!
It sounds like you have great personal minimums! I hope your friend who laughs doesn’t fly himself into what he laughs about.
2 life lessons:
* you have to know your limitations
* if you are in a hurry you should not go fast, you just should start early.
@@FlyWirescottperdue Thanks Scott. I realize I will never have anywhere near the experience or ability you have. So, I use meticulous planning, checklists and repetition so that I don't have to use the superior skills that I do not have. However, some day would love to take some aerobatic lessons from you. All best.
"Since I'm a doctor I don't fly a bonanza." LOL! Thanks for the chuckle!
Super technical explanation. Thank you!
Great advertisement for getting a proper aircraft checkout. Been flying nearly 50 years, but always learn something from your videos.
I loved the BPPP training and flight checkout when I got my F33A. Door opening, manual gear extension, all kinds of simulated emergencies. A great day of flying and it has definitely come in handy when things later happened!
Pushing on the yoke while rolling to wings level in a high speed dive is a key point. Many pilots don't know this.
That’s correct. Counterintuitive, but correct.
An aerobatic pilot told me when test flying experimentals and flying my biplanes is pull throttle amd push some negative and roll out don't pull through. And another trick is an airplane can stall at any airspeed or attitude, unless it's at or near a zero G loading.
How many pilots are flying right now that just don’t have a clear grasp on your talking points concerning the airplane they are flying? Spot on Scott, thanks again.
Thank you!
You mean do to an inverted loop from a dive? Can you make a video of you doing that for real. Im a student pilot of aerobatics. Soloed 14 hours ago.
My instructor and I were flying a charter passenger from El Dorado, Arkansas to Wichita, Kansas in an almost new A36 in the mid-1970's. When we leveled off after departing El Dorado, the top of the door popped open because the latch came apart. We continued the flight all the way to Wichita with the air screaming over the gap above the door. After we landed at Wichita, I borrowed a few tools, removed the door from the plane, carried it into a building (it was cold outside), turned the door upside down and shook the parts out of the door, reassembled the latch, reinstalled the door on the plane, and flew back to Texarkana. That was a fun flight..
I have had mine pop open twice. A lot of noise, lost a jacket once over Long Island returning from Mattituck Airbase. No big deal just flew it over NYC then descended to Chester County PA to land. Other then the noise there is nothing to it. I agree the Bonanza is fun to fly, delightfully light controls. It is not roll stable and will slowly go off to one side or another. The spiral roll is real. Excellent explanation of the loads that could be incurred in a pull up. The accident was tragic, took his two children with him. I feel awful for the family.
I don’t wanna look at that much ground!!
Perfect statement
Thanks for your work. As a retired airline pilot myself, you know how much cockpit window opening on takeoff was discussed and what a distraction it could needlessly be. A while back I had the door pop open on my H35 bonanza on takeoff and my first thought was that I would continue to fly the plane for a while and just skip the planned practice instrument approaches. However I quickly realized just how much yoke and opposite rudder it took to have a coordinated airplane. I was surprised at the drag the open door made, not to mention what airflow around the right elevon might have looked like. There was a pronounced pitch down when I lowerd the gear and much more power needed to fly the pattern compared to normal. I could see how a pilot might reduce power initially to keep the speed back , which could become catastrophic quickly.
Gunny presents great insights into the G loads experienced in a steep spiral-information I’ve never seen presented in this way-and the factors that may have led to this specific tragedy. The spiraling tendency of many airplane types and Bonanzas in particular can be a factor not only in cruise but also in circling approaches and “black hole” night visual patterns as well. Knowing why and how spirals develop, how to avoid them and how to recover, is (as Scott says) a Best Practice for transition training. Well done, Gunny, another excellent edition of FlyWire.
Excellent observation Tom, thanks!
I’ve been so keen to hear your take on this, thank you!
Great video. The math for maximum g load as a product of vne and vs is something I had not seen before. The resulting G from a spiral recovery in the context of a trim stall is also something I have not thought about but certainly encountered. This was very enlightening. Thank you.
Took me 25 hours of dual to go from my 172E to the A36 with a 550. Lot of plane to learn from the 172. Transition training with my instructor and proficiency with the avionics is so crucial! Love the videos !
Thanks!
I appreciate it Charlie!
I just found your channel. I love the knowledge you share and your style. I will be binge watching. Thank you!!!
Always appreciate your insight. I fly a V35B so it was with great interest I was following this one. Appreciate your work. Thank you sir.
As an instructor I'd intentionaly pop a door to give a student that experience, and also leave the non-metal part of the seat belt hanging outside to get that banging distraction. nice post Scott
Not a pilot, but thoroughly enjoy your clear analysis of these tragic events.
"Catastrophic disassembly." I like that expression.
"Unintended catastrophic disassembly." LOL 8) --gary
Thanks for the very clear explanation. Every bit of true knowledge helps to explain the reality of flight to non-flyers.
I believe the weather was a big contributor to this crash. I'm about 40 miles from the crash site and I can tell you the weather that day was extreme and his flight path was right into the storms.
Absolutely. Flying in turbulent weather is the classic setup for this kind of accident. I said it was a factor.
I haven't flown power in 25 years or so, but I still remember transitioning from a Piper Arrow to the V35B and being amazed at how slippery the V35B was. It's one airplane you don't want to get behind
Great job explaining.
Very well thought out explanation! Thanks for the videos!
Excellent analysis - especially on the door.
Excellent video! Thanks for the Max G = (V/Vs)^2 discussion!
Scott, as a V35B driver of about 750 hrs, I have had a few door pops. The most important thing I have read is that when the door is “right”, a 5 yr old can easily close it-most think a harder slam is the solution. The top closure mechanism must be carefully adjusted so that a gentle turn of the handle engages the top in and snugly closes by a gentle turn of the handle.
Scott, again, an excellent analysis. My new gig with Bombardier has me paying increasing attention to your subjects matter. Again, MADHATTERS!
Thanks, were you in the Silly hat squadron?
@FlyWirescottperdue Yes, yes I was. That was the most road time I've ever done, too.
This was very interesting. I didn’t know the calculation for the max g available. Also interesting to see some comparisons to other different aircraft. Great video! Thank you
Thank you for your synopsis Mr Perdue. I only have a few hours many years ago in a V35, the thing I most remember is doing barrel rolls , but yes watch the pitch. A student could get into trouble very quickly in a slippery aircraft like this.
Greg Moore Queenstown New Zealand.
Very informative...Thanks. Wish you were my intructor in 1976.😊
I am not sure if my grandfather went through an of this with his 1960 V-tail Bonanza. He sure loved flying it and it launched the career of my late uncle - who finished his career as a captain with UPS. My grandfather was also an over-the-road trucker for Pilot Freight Carriers in Charlotte, N.C.
Very informative Scott. Thank you.
Mr. Perdue, I appreciate the detailed analysis and comparison between the different airplanes. As i like to call it this is "knowledge gap" material. It initiates a very important conversation about training to use the correct control input and resulting safe outcome.
Great video! Thanks for all your great break downs.
Dan, I wrote this comment on several prior discussions of this accident. Here is what I commented to JB. Juan, I was hoping you were going to cover this incident. Good analysis. As you know I fly a V35B and I wrote this comment on Flight Solutions comments the day they posted. Look at the pilot's background that's available. First he got his PPL in 2016, second he graduated med school in 1987, that makes him about 60-62 years old. We don't know his total hours but I would say less than a 1,000. He was flying at IFR altitudes so I would assume he had an inst. rating. (now confirmed) third, He owned the subject airplane for perhaps six months or less. It appeared to have radar (pod on wing). It had a Garmin 750 and an Aspen. I looked at for sale photos from 2023. Fourth, It also appears he used his auto pilot all the time even on short flights, i.e., less time hand flying. (similar to the C340 crash of N7022G). Fifth, old Photos also showed an IAS at 5,000' of 144 kts at about 23-24" and 2,300 rpm. And when fighting headwinds, you normally fly as fast as you can to limit the time in the headwind as he was fighting headwinds of at least 20-30 knots the whole trip. Sixth, His ground speed was about 125-130 kts for almost the whole cruise part of flight. Seventh, No probable fuel issues as his capacity was 120 gal. Eighth, And one report had convective activity in the area. Ninth, This 1966 V35TC Va is 134kts at gross weight (3,400# without the Osbornes). So he was in probably turb at an IAS 20 kts or more over Va and it's a 56 year old airplane with about 6,000 hrs. Most io-520 V-tails can indicate about 150 kts at his altitude at 65-75% (my V-tail indicates 148 kts at 11,500' at 59%).
Was his radar inop? Did he get a good wx brief? gottagetthereitis? Did he not know his V speeds? SD? What a shame!!!
V-tails don't kill Docs, Docs kill themselves. Bad training and not enough info and study about how an airplane flys. Required reading should include the book, Stick and Rudder. By the way I joined ABS before I bought my first V-tail 35 years ago and have and read John Eckalber's book and all four of Larry Ball's books. There are two books on the Bonanza, one covers 1947-1971 (Those Incomparable Bonanzas, you mentioned) and "They call me Mr. Bonanza" (1972 trough the date of publication). By the way, Larry Ball eventually flew twin Cessnas (320) and became president of the twin Cessna Flyers maybe 30 years ago.
Reminds of the story of the lawyer standing in the chow line in heaven when he sees a Dr. dressed in schrubs cut the line and he asks an old timer in the heaven chow line, "Hey, I'm new here, but I thought there were no cuts in the chow line and that Dr. just cut the line?" The old timers says, "that's not a Dr., it's God, but God thinks he is a doctor."
I’m not Dan.
@@FlyWirescottperdue I know you are Scott, I hope I didn't insult you with that. lol. As I said above, the C340 (N7022G) accident was another M.D. who always flew autopilot. This Doc. appeared to as well. Maybe they lose some of their flying skills. I have a V35B and most always hand fly the airplane. properly trimmed out its like flying a/p and you pay more attention what's outside and inside. And besides (I know you flew real airplanes in the A/F) Bonanzas (and you have a special one) are so much fun and a pleasure to fly.
@@larryweitzman5163 Larry, no worries, I just wanted to be clear:)
@@FlyWirescottperdue One of the issues which I think needs to be emphasized is Va (134 kts @ GW, and less at lower GW). I gave a talked on this at the Utah Aeronautics conference recently. You showed the potential convective activity in the accident area and from the flightaware data he was at least 10 kts above Va. And then as you pointed out he continued to probably load up the airplane. This guy as you also pointed out wasn't well trained in the Bonanza. He was an accident waiting to happen.
But Va is no guarantee of safe operation as demonstrated by AA flight 587. The over rudder zealous co-pilot made three rapid full stop rudder movements (maybe from supposed wake turb from an earlier 747 after takeoff) in the Airbus at an IAS 250-251 kts which is below the Airbus 270 kt Va and the tail still broke off. The co-pilot was known for too much rudder applications. Part of the problem with the airbus tail was its design using six hold down point, three of titanium and three composite. The composite hold downs broke first. They were later changed to all titanium. But the point is Va is no guarantee, especially in a 58 year old, 6000 hr airframe which the pilot knew no history of.
@@larryweitzman5163 The highest ground speed was 214 knots...meaning well above Vne.
Excellent analysis
Thanks Scott!! That was really interesting!! --gary
Great analysis. Thanks.
Dang I love this sh*t. You cover it better than any of my instructors ever did.
Excellent analysis as always. I was unaware of the spiral divergence of the Bonanza, until I watched your video a short while after this accident and the light bulb went off in my brain. I've pointed to your videos on spiral divergence, as explanation of this accident since. Glad to see the methodical and evidence based analysis you provided here. Wow, that max potential G load is both illuminating and at the same sobering. It can happen to even the more stable airframes if you get into doing anything dumb, dangerous or different.
Also why would anyone with a sensible approach to aviation buy a new plane and not get properly checked out in it before going on a long and questionable flight into known weather?
Excellent review. Not withstanding your personal opinion of a 182s “sportiness”, your axiom of Don’t Fly in the Yellow is one I fully support and adhere to in my own flying.
Remember, I've owned a 182. It was a great airplane. Not perfect.
Agreed. Is there a perfect airplane?
@@welshchris45 Mission dependant, but no.
Thank you.
It's not always obvious...
I remember when an airline aircraft broke the vertical stabilser when he was too aggressive on the rudder 😢
I was once on a 777 flying into Manila. I was seated at the rear of the aircraft. There was a big storm, and as we landed, the pilot was aggressively using the rudder which was throwing the rear of the airplane all over the place. The stress on that rudder and vertical stabilizer must’ve been incredible and I wondered to myself how many times that could happen before the thing broke off.
Great analysis. As a former flying and aerobatic instructor, many pilots do not understand what can happen when you add high speed and g loading. A slippery aircraft like the Bonanza is fun to fly but demanding. Not much time in Bonanzas but lot's of hours in Barons. I'm with you on the fun factor. All time favourite twin for me.
The "fun factor" became a priority for me when I got my PPL back in 2009. Originally, I was shopping for a Cessna 140, then a Cessna 170, then I settled on a Citabria. After that, I bought a 180HP CS prop equipped Globe Swift, and had a ball with it. I did my BFRs in a local flight school's Cessna 172 (because no CFIs would fly in the Swift with me due to insurance requirements), and while I respect the design for its inherent stability, I hate flying them!
Right now, I am trying to get current again after a hiatus from aviation, and am flying a C152. Great little plane as a trainer, but I am looking at a sporty design such as a Super D or a Van's if I buy something. As the soup Nazi might have exclaimed if he'd been a pilot: NO CESSNA FOR YOU!
Excellent, I just subscribed.
Lots of info there, thanks. Never flown a Bonanza.
Thank for sharing
i had a bonanza many years ago hated it. always in the shop with corrision problems. then the bracket in the v tail corroded out. no parts available and it was a hangered plane. i then bought my 1971 aero commander shrike which i still have, was 9 months old when i bought it. never had the corrosion problems with itl. but it also twice as expensive to operate as the bonanze and it is a lot cheaper to insure.
I had a door pop open in my 185. Slowed it down, full flaps and just before it stalled I pushed the door open , then slammed it shut. Not a big deal, but I won't leave a door unlatched again.
Cessna 185? Yeah you can close the Cessna door in flight because the wing is below the door. On a low wing plane, the area where the door is in a low pressure zone, much harder to close, if not impossible. I heard that people have done a “Zero G” maneuver while attempting to close the door on a low wing, but seriously just land it and reclose the door.
At 12:51 you are talking about 9 G’s. Since I am not a fighter pilot, how much G’s can a body take? I understand everyone is different, so do you wear a pressure suit when doing your acrobatic moves?
No. 9 G is what most modern fighters do. The Extras and other competition aerobatic airplanes do 10 for a very short time.
Picking up an M series in Sedona next week or after. You instruct outta DFW land? I'm in SA metro area. I'll be contacting you to look into setting up some training.
I have over 5000 hours in beech, never got a door to latch in flight
Nailed it! Just land close the door and carry on
Have you flown a laminar flow wings Piper Comanche?
It's sporty. It's not a truck.
I have I owned a Twin Comanche PA30 for 20 years.
Ahh, but still a Piper;)
Thank you Scott. Great explanation. A pilot definitely needs to know their airplane. This pilot clearly did not.
My dad always loved the bonanza and I’ve flown S35s, 33As, 36s both A and G. I trust the aircraft implicitly but it has to be respected. Cross-controlled stalls are an eye opener I won’t do again, and full power stalls or power-off 180s take time with firm training limits to do safely.
Dad worked at Beech since the 70’s and always attributed the bad reputation for Bos to pilots getting a face full of dirt and ripping the yoke back, leading to wing failure. Great to see the math to support it and I wish dad hadn’t flown west so I could talk to him about it.
Not to say a speed cuff wasn’t needed for the tail but if you drive the wing beyond what it can handle, the speed cuff on the tail won’t do you much good.
If it gets too spicy, keep it smooth and at the least go idle and chunk the gear out. It may tweak the gear doors but it’s way better than “catastrophically disassembling” the airplane.
Thanks for the work you and JB do Scott!
Usually the tail fails downward and then the wing folds upward, given the weakness of the V tail, it probably broke first
The NTSB Preliminary Report indicates that the tail (ruddervators) failed first in that it was the first piece recovered along the flight (breakup) path.
Outstanding as always. So much vital information in these videos.
Does anyone know how this would look in a Grumman Tiger? What about an aerobatic Citabria 7KCAB? I might ask my instructor about doing this...
Best line: “..others that have rushed to report on it”.
We know.
Very important stuff. Folks just don't realize they can easily overstress planes just by manipulating the controls too hard.
good work
Only listen to you and Broncolirio on these analysis. Uncle Sam spent a lot of time and money to make you guys what you are. Thanks
Hello Scott from Sydney Australia.
Is the planes POH the only source of performance numbers?
Is there more specifically for acrobatic rated planes?
🌏🛩️
The POH for the F33C is the same as the F33A of the same year groups... with differences noted. I'm not realy sure about your question though. What performance issues are you interested in?
As a mechanic, when you say a crash was caused by "maintenance issues", I can't help but think you are implying that the crash was caused by something a mechanic did or didn't do. If the owner/ operator didn't have the aircraft maintained in an airworthy condition, they are the ones responsible. An aircraft is only airworthy when it leaves the shop, not a year later.
I agree completely.
As a maintenance guy myself, when I hear "maintenance issue", I think of a lack of maintenance. Meaning the maintenance guys never got to touch it.
Great report despite the shot you took at us 210 drivers. :) How do you practice or train the spiral maneuver (other than carefully)? I have a very fast experimental and would like to work on that control and tendency area. Also like the suggestion about the door -- makes a lot of sense, will start doing that reliably.
My next video will go into detail on the training exercise for this.
Another good analysis...airplanes are like pretty gals...you do not over stress them...they will break you into pieces😢
As a PA32-260 driver, I must agree with you. It is definitely missing the “fun factor.” lol
I fly an S35 Bonanza. Funny, I use the same term, “it digs into the turn”
Left out of the discussion was the proximity to wind shear and possibly microburst from being vectored near T-Storms. Also the NTSB seems to never look into pilot incapacitation or heart attacks and arbitrarily rules pilot error as the cause.
The ADSB record shows the airplane was faster than Vne without excessive descent or climb rates. That's why I didn't mention it. Thanks for watching.
I had a door that popped open between RNT and MFR in my 172. The wind kept the door shut where I had no worries about falling out. lol My son grabbed a cam strap from the back and I tightened the door. Non Event.
.. how does the door pop open? I have trouble getting it open just enough to throw out a pop can, or a pee bottle.
Everyone check and recheck your trim actuators and entire trim assembly
Scott, what is the “G” limit of an unladen Swallow?
42
African or European?
AOPA tested the 'impossible turn' with a few planes, some could do it, the bonanza couldn't. Is that simply because it stalls at a high speed or does it have some bad glide characteristics? is it particularly terrible in a glide turn? does a big stol wing have an inherent advantage in the 'impossible turn'
Dan, this video is not about the Impossible Turn. I've done a LOT of vidoes on that subject. Please seek them out. Your questions will be answered.
@@FlyWirescottperdue I understand, you just raised the issue of bonanza's flight characteristics
@@FlyWirescottperdue I just checked your video on the impossible turn. you just talk potential and kinetic energy formula and you do a turn in the air with no reference to runway and you only do it in the bonanza and you don't talk about the significance of the plane model. you advocate knowing your plane, that also means knowing it in relation to other planes that might be better. AOPA tentatively concluded a bonanza was bad as returning but others could do it. maybe try other types, like a stol type like a carbon cub and maybe a motorglider. If the conclusion is that returning is very possible with the right plane, that's an important conclusion, wouldn't you say?
Remember that one of the guys who made that "Impossible turn" video killed himself trying it himself. Not from a lack of experience.
@@JoshuaTootell the AOPA video? ah you mean McSpadden? he wasn't PIC and they weren't doing an impossible return, more of a too slow return and fell short at the finish line because they didn't land right away when having engine problems.
What I see in the data is that he never kept up with speed. He was over tasked and task saturated. He ended up in an updraft in front of thr front coming through and blew through his assigned altitude. Pushing the nose over built up speed without him correcting it which allowed the airplane to overload itself. This is exactly why they call it the doctor killer. And you hit the point of training. Its not just training in the airplane. Its a lack of training and experience overal in this case.
Are you going to cover the Spitfire crash in the UK? I enjoy your videos. Congrats to you, Dan, Juan and the others for reducing the number of deaths in GA. Very low numbers so far in 2024.
The evidence presented makes a strong case for lack of training in this type of aircraft, but I also have to wonder about pilot incapacitation, contributing to the apparent loss of control. Dunno.
I can’t see a medical situation that would result in a massive over-g. Without that it would NOT have come apart like it did.
Great educational video. That's why I prefer aerobatic airplanes. They are draggy and super strong. Curtis Pitts always said, a wing can only handle so many cycles before failure. Age of the aircraft and the number of wing positive & negative cycles reduces its ultimate load capacity. It may be able to handle 9 g's new and only 6 g's when old.
Exactly why my airplane and my butt is limited to 4g. Dislocations tend to congregate.
I understand that many aerobatic aircraft used to have wooden spars to avoid the fatigue which can happen with aluminium. Wood is either good or broken - no in-between
@@kkiwi54 They still do have wooden wings. All biplanes use spruce spars with wood ribs. It’s natures composite material. How do you inspect a carbon fiber spar on an Extra aerobatic airplane? Carbon fiber is either good or broken. It’s typically a catastrophic failure with composite materials.
Maybe one of the only advantages of flying an open cockpit… no doors to pop open during flight 😂
I'm won't be doing math while pulling out of a spiral. I enjoy your videos, though.
The v is tricky. Dont be afraid just get a check out from someone who knows it well. 😊
Scott, you need to get in shape!
So I was just taking off one rough day in my V35B with a pilot buddy in the right seat. Within seconds of me mentioning the door popping open risk, the door pops open and sucks a paper check list right out of his hands. 😊
Very interesting video. Have heard the Bonanza labels forever ("Dr killer") but never a real explanition. Thanks.
Maybe off topic, regarding the F33C, what is a good source of exactly what was done to the std Bonanza to qualify it for higher loads,
i.e. aerobatics ?
Lots of little changes, but the biggest is a massive upgrade to the Spar.
"It's not the airplane's fault!" Every loyal Bonanza owner says it.
It's the human nature. My sister had a Morgan horse that would throw anybody it could off it's back (including her). She loved and rode that horse for many years until it passed.
@@dirtcurt1 LOL I also know a girl who loves her evil horse. Sometimes she kisses it on the mouth!
Hanger talk not accusatory...An accelerated stall seems to me to be a detachment of airflow required for proper aerodynamics by exceeding angle of attack. This doesn't necessarily mean an unloading of the wing. Imagine a boat rudder when the boat is moving. Turn that rudder far enough and it's no longer effective (exceeded aoa and slalled) however is now even more loaded (depending on flight vector and AOA)... take a plane at vne and accelerated stall depending on the flight vector and AOA i feel that the wing COULD be heavily loaded... would love your 2 cents
Travis, good question, but you chose a lousy example. When you stall a wing.... it is unloaded. If the wing cannot produce lift... you have little load. If you don't trust me, read Aerodynamics for Naval Aviators. The rudder on a boat is in water... not air.
If you are to survive you must know your airplane and its limitations. Use of avionics come with the understanding of how they work or don’t. Staying within the envelope can go a long way.
One other point to consider, Has this airframe ever been over stressed in the past? If so all of your figures will be reduced!
So how would you not Over-G the plane, slowly pull back?
You push on the yoke to control the pitch up rate. I've done a video on the Spiral Divergence. My next one will expand on it. Standby.
Would parachutes (Retro Fit to Ac) help?
Most GA airplanes out there do not have a structure robust enough to install an airframe parachute would be problematic.
lack of currency kills, had to retire from skyjumping because i couldn't get into the sky enough to stay current.
pretty sure flying planes is much the same...... Thanks Scott!
How many Gs before the tail falls off, prob less than those numbers
Way less.
@@FlyWirescottperdue I figured, hard to control a plane without a tail
Not sure I understand, Mooney maximum speed 175kt???
So, the equation works like this... Maximum G available equals (Vne/Vs) squared. This is Indicated and as I mentioned in the video for a 201. MaxG is unrelated to whether the airplane would survive it.
@@FlyWirescottperdue Vne on a Mooney M20J (201) is normally 198 kt, but I understand your point.
Don’t like the v tail Bonanza since me and the local sheriff found pieces in a peanut field in Sylvester Georgia. 4 people fell to their death after in flight break up. Late 80s.
Probably related to this accident. Any airplane can experience a massive over-g and come apart. Don't mishandle it.
Never saw that fer sure.
I really don't well understand the design tradeoffs that would allow such overstress to occur. Not too hard to think about limit stops or other mechanical means....
Tldr: humans like speed and physics doesn't.
Airplanes in the normal category like this one have G load limit of +3.8gs. Amd -1.6 or so. These limits are hard to reach or even impossible to reach at slow speeds but when you get fast just small movements on the controls can put you in harms way. There is a speed called maneuvering speed that should keep you from damaging the airplane in the event of high g loads. Furthermore an airplane requires larger control inputs when at slow speeds than at high speeds so we cannot just limit the controls for high speed or we may not be able to go slow. Hope this helped a little in understanding, this is all covered in the traing a pilot receives but can get lost to time if not covered in the flight reviews required every 24 months
Great video, but your Mooney number is wrong. My Vne is 195, not 175.
Not all Mooney's have that 195 Vne, Use the formula to figure out your G available. Above the yellow line you'd definitely be able to over-G your airplane.
Wrong....iIts not a "massive over G".....This type of accident from a spiraling decent is caused by a "compression" of the Vg diagram due to "Rolling Gs". The envelope compresses usually due to simultaneous use of elevator and aileron or simply the use of the elevator when the aileron is not neutral. All those numbers on the white board are superfluous. The airplane disintegrated way before 3.8 Gs.