Thank You once again! I really appreciate your thorough yet concise approach to these videos. Especially always making sure to show Multiple ways of achieving a task. If I would suggest anything, it'd be maybe discussing the pros and cons of one approach over the other. What you gain what you lose, to think it through.
Let me also say that, I found you years ago when I was thinking of getting another Soundcraft Ghost. I got one, and I've modded it to be a pretty amazing desk. But I also have an Audient ASP2802, and you're now also an Audient whisperer. Pretty ironic or serendipitous I thinks. Now, to most this will seem convoluted as hell, but I think you'll totally appreciate what I'm trying to do. And I'll try to keep this as concise as possible. I'm currently finishing the building part of my new studio, but my (mix) plan is to have two Quantum 4848s feeding 64-Channels into the 32-channel Ghost Line-Ins, and Tape-Ins, then that feeding into the 2802 as essentially my Master Section. So the Ghost is 32x8x2, but it's inline so 64x8x2 (plus 8 returns of course). However, by not using it to "Mix" but rather for Channel Strips and Routing, I have effectively 22-mono Bus paths I can route out to: Groups (8), LR Mix-A (2), LR Mix-B (2), Mono Auxs (6), Stereo Auxs (4) I can't see a way to use the Mix-B And the Auxs discretely (though I could see parallel processing with it), so that leaves 20-Mono, Or 10-Stereo Busses (Stems). I also don't think I'll use Mix-A as a Group bus like I originally thought, and leave it as intended for an additional 2-bus option. I'll likely use as normalled, 8 Stereo Busses labeled Bus-A,B,C,D,E,F,G,H. The "Channel" path can reach 7/8 Busses (nine total): Auxs 1/2 (A), 3/4 (B), 5/6 (C), St-Aux 7 (X), Groups 1/2 (E), 3/4 (F), 5/6 (G), 7/8 (H), LR Mix-A (X). The "Tape" path can reach 3/8 Busses (four total): Auxs 3/4 (B), 5/6 (C), St-Aux 8 (D), Mix-B (X). Now, the 2802 is named for it's 28-Inputs that Sum down to the 2-Bus. (No Groups, but I'm using the whole thing as groups). There are 8 Channel Strips, each Inline (to the Cue Bus) so 16 Inputs. There's an 8-Channel (DB25) Sum-to-Stereo Input, now 24. And there's 2 Stereo Returns, that's 28 Inputs that can all Mix to the Master 2-Bus. Obviously there are many ways to skin this cat, but I'm thinking: Ghost Auxs 1/2 (A) 3/4 (B), 5/6 (C), St-Aux 8 (D) would go to 2802 Inputs 1-8. Those 8 (VCA) Faders would control the balance of A,B,C,D. Ghost Group outs 1-8 (E,F,G,H), to the 8-Channel Summing input on the 2802. Then those 8 Ghost Group Faders would control the balance of E,F,G,H. (With 1-stereo SUM Level and Cut on the 2802, set to unity) With all of that, think of it as One Console. 64-Channels into 8-Stereo Busses into a Master Bus. All of the I/O is running through Patchbays, Normalled, and Calibrated to Unity so that primarily all of the level controls and automation will happen In-the-Box. However, the killer app of the Audient ASP 2802, is that it's bottom half is the same DLC that's available for their flagship large format studio console, the 8024 (unfortunately not for the 4816). Meaning it has 8-Channels of VCA flying faders and Analog Automation. This is key for automating post-analog dynamic processing, ie compression. If you automate in the DAW, before the dynamics, whatever automation you set is pushing into whatever threshold you set in the compressor. The 2802 also uses MIDI from your DAW session, rather than a standalone automation system, meaning that the recall live in your session, and work pretty much like your other automation lanes. Plus its a DAW controller, so you write all the automation with the Faders in the first place. I think that once it's setup, the level of control should rival the big boy Studios I've always dreamed of owning but couldn't afford. Have I lost my mind? Am I missing anything right in front of my nose? Please share Any thoughts! Thanks Again, ...and in Advance. G.
Hi G, No, while it sounds complicated the concept is simple enough and sound, I suppose just be aware the convertors will add just as much favour as the desks will. You see plenty of people using different summing boxes for different instruments even within the mix and once you've set it up and have template in your daw to work from I think the complexity of the setup will be forgotten and it'll be easy to use!
@@ivanjackman Thanks for replying! Yes, I very much agree about the "color" of the Converters, and that it was often left out of the thinking during the Summing Box epidemic. That said, two thoughts: 1) Converters have come a LONG way since 1996 when I bought my first ProTools Project system with it's 16-bit Only 8-in/8-out Line only interface. Even the 888s, studio standard for the time, sounded pretty bad even then, everyone that could upgraded to Apogee. Today, even the cheapest USB bus powered interfaces at Guitar Center, can provide far cleaner, if sterile, and far less 'colored' conversion when compared with anything back then, for the same reason the chips in our cell phones and laptops were considered weapons grade computers back then. 2) I chose, to my surprise, the Presonus Quantum 4848s, precisely because of how clean (and Fast!) the converters are. Specked at 120dB dynamic range, 24/192 (though I'll likely run at 24/96). I have a lot of testing I wanna do before I pick up the second one, but so far this is the best interface I've ever own, and there's been dozens over the past few decades. It also happens to be, I believe the lowest dollars-per-channel ratio available. $1500 for 32-A/D and 32-D/A on DB25s. Latency wise, the dual Thunderbolt ports are reporting 0.91ms Round Trip! at 192k. Not to sound like a commercial, but this thing is fucking incredible bang for buck and otherwise. Two side notes: A) it comes with a license for Studio One Professional, which I slept on and now Love for a dozen reasons, but relevant to this discussion, "Pipeline" is their built-in Hardware Insert app. It essentially turns all of your Analog gear into drag-n-drop Plugins, with all the input/output level matching, latency compensation, even a wet/dry mix knob for parallel processing, and it'll host photos of your gear settings for recall! All of this can be done in other DAWs, but this is the most comprehensive, intuitive, elegant setup I've ever come across. It makes you wanna use your rack gear. B) the greatest surprise though, will sound weird to most, but again I think you'll appreciate. The hardware communicates with the computer using the same driver software as all Presonus products, Universal Control. The Quantums have no DSP, just straight conversion, so UC doesn't let you "do" anything. Well except change the LEDs on the face of the unit to show input levels or output levels, that's it. However, what the app let's you "See" is a complete Digital Meterbridge for every Input and Output in one global view! So with 32-Outs going to the Ghost Tape-Ins, and 32-Ghost Direct-Outs going to the Quantum Ins, what you get (full screen on my third 27-inch display) reminds me of a modern version of the VU Meterbridge on a Studer A800, except far more precise. It blows away the Meterbridge that comes with the Ghost, allowing me to remove it for space. (More on that another day) And again it's showing you 32 Ins, and Outs. At a glance. But if you simply Click on any input or output, across the bottom of your display, the whole width becomes a massive meter for just that channel, that you can see from across the street. Durroghs has nothing on this. Not impressed, well click in the top right corner on the letters RTA. Now the whole screen is a Realtime Analyzer for any single input or output, on your decades old Analog Console. (And all these meters have a million configurable settings btw, including LUFS, to get exactly the information that you desire.) Finally though, if that wasn't enough, I think because Presonus also makes their StudioLive Consoles, like on most digital consoles, you can log into it with an iPad app. And it's pretty much Exactly the same information as on the computer screen, except in your hands, and Wireless. Imagine walking all over the studio, setting up Mics, adjusting EQs in the rack, dialing in a Guitar tone or re-amping, whatever, while holding a tablet with giving you the exact, detailed level and frequency information you're about to record. Before anyone reading this regurgitates the line "Mix with your Ears", let me preemptively give my rebuttal: I mix with my Mind and my Heart, my Ears are input devices, and so too are my other four senses. Why would I mix blindfolded? Just so happens, I bought an I/O box, and it came with remote control X-ray Vision. And it sounds pretty good too. Thanks Again Ivan! As much as I appreciate this dialog, feel no need to respond quickly or at all if you don't have the time. I'm having whatever the opposite of a mid-life crisis is over here. A second wind maybe. And your channel has given me great inspiration. So Thank You, G.
I'm curious how you would route a mix through a sub. I've tried using subgroups but that doesn't behave how I expect - I don't understand why I need to remove the channels I'm routing (say 1 & 2) from the main mix, and press the LF switch you mention for it to actually send to a subgroup. It also overloads our sub very easily despite the sub being set to its lowest output level, which suggests doing this runs the signal through multiple gain stages. It's really stumping me and the (in my opinion) poor design of the front panel of the console doesn't help. Instead I just send things to the sub via the aux outputs but that's less convenient than having everything controllable through the master volume.
Thank you for that video. That was very helpful. I have the same console and iam currently facing a problem i can't solve. Channel 13-16 don't seem to work as they should be. If I am sending a signal into those channels I see it gets recognised on the input meter. However the signal doesn't seem to get any further. It doesn't reach the busses or the mixbus. I don't have a clue what's wrong. On all other channels it works just fine. Only on channel 13-16 (with exactly the same settings like the other channels) it doesn't work. Do you have an idea what the problem could be?
You may need to contact Audient! Just recently channel 13 started making noise on our console, I sent a video of the problem to Audient and they diagnosed the problem as a faulty opamp, they are sending out replacement parts this week. They have been very helpful with any problems the desk has had over last few years.
@@ivanjackmanThank you. It's great that they are so supportive. I hope i can do a replacement myself. My biggest fear is to have it being send back to the uk
Hi, congrats on the new desk! having a company wire up your patchbays can be very expensive! the TT patchbay I'm using in this desk has Dsub outputs meaning no wiring at all, just purchase Dsub to xlr looms and plug them in.
Hi, Ivan I'm not sure if you'll have an answer to this question. Where I work we have an Audient ASP 8024 and since I've started here it hasnt been used so I'm getting it all worked out and up and running again so we can get the recording studio reopened. But the only thing we're having trouble with on the desk is the comms mic. I have no trouble getting signal into the desk and routing wherever I need to, but the comms mic signal doesn't appear to go anywhere. I can't quite tell where its is supposed to be routed through, as the buttons don't send the comms mic through the hearback nor live room monitors when selected. I just wondered if you have any ideas to troubleshoot this issue?
Is there an analogue console with midi functionalities (analogue/digital) that has the capability to offer analogue signal and midi controller capabilities at once? It probably exists, I'm just starting to look into this. Analogue is cool, but makes recalling sessions much harder, so a hybrid console would be perfect to move cubase/protools faders from the analogue faders. ANyone can suggest console names?
Thanks for the video, it was super helpful! How would you recommend doing an analog mix down from the DAW? Are you able to route the main mix inc the onboard bus comp back into a DAW? Whilst I love mixing in the box, I really would love to get back into an analog flow again :)
Thanks, glad it was helpful! Yes the desk has the main mix output duplicated 3 times which can be routed where ever, so if I patch one output back to pro tools on a stereo channel, I can rout that channel out to patchbay and patch it to the ext 2 track monitor, so I'm listening to the output of the device I'm recording the mix to instead of listening to the mix live, helpful for catching any audible overloads. Mixing on the desk is great fun, so long as the band etc is into it, otherwise its a nightmare, people expect recallls these days!
@@ivanjackman so the downside to mixing on an analog mixer is it’s lack of recall ? I’ve been on the fence regarding an analog mixer to create a hybrid system, but in reality it benefits the front end and monitoring. Going back to make changes on the analog board (regarding a master mix) it would require extensive documentation of all the settings. Am I correct ??
@@neltom50 yes and even the smallest mix tweak will require every piece of equipment used in the mix to be set back to the settings used during the mix.
I love you for this. Nobody ever does these old school tutorials anymore. Really helpful man, thanks a bunch!
Thank You once again!
I really appreciate your thorough yet concise approach to these videos.
Especially always making sure to show Multiple ways of achieving a task.
If I would suggest anything, it'd be maybe discussing the pros and cons of one approach over the other. What you gain what you lose, to think it through.
Let me also say that, I found you years ago when I was thinking of getting another Soundcraft Ghost.
I got one, and I've modded it to be a pretty amazing desk.
But I also have an Audient ASP2802, and you're now also an Audient whisperer. Pretty ironic or serendipitous I thinks.
Now, to most this will seem convoluted as hell, but I think you'll totally appreciate what I'm trying to do. And I'll try to keep this as concise as possible.
I'm currently finishing the building part of my new studio, but my (mix) plan is to have two Quantum 4848s feeding 64-Channels into the 32-channel Ghost Line-Ins, and Tape-Ins, then that feeding into the 2802 as essentially my Master Section.
So the Ghost is 32x8x2, but it's inline so 64x8x2 (plus 8 returns of course).
However, by not using it to "Mix" but rather for Channel Strips and Routing, I have effectively 22-mono Bus paths I can route out to: Groups (8), LR Mix-A (2), LR Mix-B (2), Mono Auxs (6), Stereo Auxs (4)
I can't see a way to use the Mix-B And the Auxs discretely (though I could see parallel processing with it), so that leaves 20-Mono, Or 10-Stereo Busses (Stems).
I also don't think I'll use Mix-A as a Group bus like I originally thought, and leave it as intended for an additional 2-bus option.
I'll likely use as normalled, 8 Stereo Busses labeled Bus-A,B,C,D,E,F,G,H.
The "Channel" path can reach 7/8 Busses (nine total): Auxs 1/2 (A), 3/4 (B), 5/6 (C), St-Aux 7 (X), Groups 1/2 (E), 3/4 (F), 5/6 (G), 7/8 (H), LR Mix-A (X).
The "Tape" path can reach 3/8 Busses (four total): Auxs 3/4 (B), 5/6 (C), St-Aux 8 (D), Mix-B (X).
Now, the 2802 is named for it's 28-Inputs that Sum down to the 2-Bus. (No Groups, but I'm using the whole thing as groups).
There are 8 Channel Strips, each Inline (to the Cue Bus) so 16 Inputs. There's an 8-Channel (DB25) Sum-to-Stereo Input, now 24. And there's 2 Stereo Returns, that's 28 Inputs that can all Mix to the Master 2-Bus.
Obviously there are many ways to skin this cat, but I'm thinking:
Ghost Auxs 1/2 (A) 3/4 (B), 5/6 (C), St-Aux 8 (D) would go to 2802 Inputs 1-8. Those 8 (VCA) Faders would control the balance of A,B,C,D.
Ghost Group outs 1-8 (E,F,G,H), to the 8-Channel Summing input on the 2802. Then those 8 Ghost Group Faders would control the balance of E,F,G,H. (With 1-stereo SUM Level and Cut on the 2802, set to unity)
With all of that, think of it as One Console. 64-Channels into 8-Stereo Busses into a Master Bus.
All of the I/O is running through Patchbays, Normalled, and Calibrated to Unity so that primarily all of the level controls and automation will happen In-the-Box.
However, the killer app of the Audient ASP 2802, is that it's bottom half is the same DLC that's available for their flagship large format studio console, the 8024 (unfortunately not for the 4816). Meaning it has 8-Channels of VCA flying faders and Analog Automation. This is key for automating post-analog dynamic processing, ie compression. If you automate in the DAW, before the dynamics, whatever automation you set is pushing into whatever threshold you set in the compressor.
The 2802 also uses MIDI from your DAW session, rather than a standalone automation system, meaning that the recall live in your session, and work pretty much like your other automation lanes. Plus its a DAW controller, so you write all the automation with the Faders in the first place.
I think that once it's setup, the level of control should rival the big boy Studios I've always dreamed of owning but couldn't afford.
Have I lost my mind?
Am I missing anything right in front of my nose?
Please share Any thoughts!
Thanks Again, ...and in Advance.
G.
Hi G, No, while it sounds complicated the concept is simple enough and sound, I suppose just be aware the convertors will add just as much favour as the desks will. You see plenty of people using different summing boxes for different instruments even within the mix and once you've set it up and have template in your daw to work from I think the complexity of the setup will be forgotten and it'll be easy to use!
@@ivanjackman Thanks for replying!
Yes, I very much agree about the "color" of the Converters, and that it was often left out of the thinking during the Summing Box epidemic.
That said, two thoughts:
1) Converters have come a LONG way since 1996 when I bought my first ProTools Project system with it's 16-bit Only 8-in/8-out Line only interface. Even the 888s, studio standard for the time, sounded pretty bad even then, everyone that could upgraded to Apogee. Today, even the cheapest USB bus powered interfaces at Guitar Center, can provide far cleaner, if sterile, and far less 'colored' conversion when compared with anything back then, for the same reason the chips in our cell phones and laptops were considered weapons grade computers back then.
2) I chose, to my surprise, the Presonus Quantum 4848s, precisely because of how clean (and Fast!) the converters are. Specked at 120dB dynamic range, 24/192 (though I'll likely run at 24/96). I have a lot of testing I wanna do before I pick up the second one, but so far this is the best interface I've ever own, and there's been dozens over the past few decades. It also happens to be, I believe the lowest dollars-per-channel ratio available. $1500 for 32-A/D and 32-D/A on DB25s. Latency wise, the dual Thunderbolt ports are reporting 0.91ms Round Trip! at 192k.
Not to sound like a commercial, but this thing is fucking incredible bang for buck and otherwise. Two side notes:
A) it comes with a license for Studio One Professional, which I slept on and now Love for a dozen reasons, but relevant to this discussion, "Pipeline" is their built-in Hardware Insert app. It essentially turns all of your Analog gear into drag-n-drop Plugins, with all the input/output level matching, latency compensation, even a wet/dry mix knob for parallel processing, and it'll host photos of your gear settings for recall! All of this can be done in other DAWs, but this is the most comprehensive, intuitive, elegant setup I've ever come across. It makes you wanna use your rack gear.
B) the greatest surprise though, will sound weird to most, but again I think you'll appreciate. The hardware communicates with the computer using the same driver software as all Presonus products, Universal Control. The Quantums have no DSP, just straight conversion, so UC doesn't let you "do" anything. Well except change the LEDs on the face of the unit to show input levels or output levels, that's it.
However, what the app let's you "See" is a complete Digital Meterbridge for every Input and Output in one global view!
So with 32-Outs going to the Ghost Tape-Ins, and 32-Ghost Direct-Outs going to the Quantum Ins, what you get (full screen on my third 27-inch display) reminds me of a modern version of the VU Meterbridge on a Studer A800, except far more precise. It blows away the Meterbridge that comes with the Ghost, allowing me to remove it for space. (More on that another day)
And again it's showing you 32 Ins, and Outs. At a glance.
But if you simply Click on any input or output, across the bottom of your display, the whole width becomes a massive meter for just that channel, that you can see from across the street. Durroghs has nothing on this.
Not impressed, well click in the top right corner on the letters RTA. Now the whole screen is a Realtime Analyzer for any single input or output, on your decades old Analog Console. (And all these meters have a million configurable settings btw, including LUFS, to get exactly the information that you desire.)
Finally though, if that wasn't enough, I think because Presonus also makes their StudioLive Consoles, like on most digital consoles, you can log into it with an iPad app. And it's pretty much Exactly the same information as on the computer screen, except in your hands, and Wireless. Imagine walking all over the studio, setting up Mics, adjusting EQs in the rack, dialing in a Guitar tone or re-amping, whatever, while holding a tablet with giving you the exact, detailed level and frequency information you're about to record.
Before anyone reading this regurgitates the line "Mix with your Ears", let me preemptively give my rebuttal: I mix with my Mind and my Heart, my Ears are input devices, and so too are my other four senses. Why would I mix blindfolded?
Just so happens, I bought an I/O box, and it came with remote control X-ray Vision.
And it sounds pretty good too.
Thanks Again Ivan!
As much as I appreciate this dialog, feel no need to respond quickly or at all if you don't have the time.
I'm having whatever the opposite of a mid-life crisis is over here. A second wind maybe. And your channel has given me great inspiration.
So Thank You,
G.
Great video!!
Why didn't they just add an insert button for the groups?? Ugh.
I'm curious how you would route a mix through a sub. I've tried using subgroups but that doesn't behave how I expect - I don't understand why I need to remove the channels I'm routing (say 1 & 2) from the main mix, and press the LF switch you mention for it to actually send to a subgroup. It also overloads our sub very easily despite the sub being set to its lowest output level, which suggests doing this runs the signal through multiple gain stages. It's really stumping me and the (in my opinion) poor design of the front panel of the console doesn't help. Instead I just send things to the sub via the aux outputs but that's less convenient than having everything controllable through the master volume.
This is great video! It's really nice to see what you can do with this kit.
Thank you for that video. That was very helpful. I have the same console and iam currently facing a problem i can't solve. Channel 13-16 don't seem to work as they should be. If I am sending a signal into those channels I see it gets recognised on the input meter. However the signal doesn't seem to get any further. It doesn't reach the busses or the mixbus. I don't have a clue what's wrong. On all other channels it works just fine. Only on channel 13-16 (with exactly the same settings like the other channels) it doesn't work. Do you have an idea what the problem could be?
You may need to contact Audient! Just recently channel 13 started making noise on our console, I sent a video of the problem to Audient and they diagnosed the problem as a faulty opamp, they are sending out replacement parts this week. They have been very helpful with any problems the desk has had over last few years.
@@ivanjackmanThank you. It's great that they are so supportive. I hope i can do a replacement myself. My biggest fear is to have it being send back to the uk
I just bought 4816 yesterday. Did you do the tt patch bays yourself? 'Praps a company can do them up and sell ready to go.
Hi, congrats on the new desk! having a company wire up your patchbays can be very expensive! the TT patchbay I'm using in this desk has Dsub outputs meaning no wiring at all, just purchase Dsub to xlr looms and plug them in.
@@ivanjackman yes. I like those. I don’t have them yet. But it could happen. 😀.
Thx man im gonna graduate thx to you 🙏
Very useful content could you(if time allows) make a video showing how you wired all the gear?
Hi, Ivan
I'm not sure if you'll have an answer to this question. Where I work we have an Audient ASP 8024 and since I've started here it hasnt been used so I'm getting it all worked out and up and running again so we can get the recording studio reopened. But the only thing we're having trouble with on the desk is the comms mic. I have no trouble getting signal into the desk and routing wherever I need to, but the comms mic signal doesn't appear to go anywhere. I can't quite tell where its is supposed to be routed through, as the buttons don't send the comms mic through the hearback nor live room monitors when selected. I just wondered if you have any ideas to troubleshoot this issue?
Strange, when you hit the tb button it should route the signal to the foldback section, when you press Slate, it should route to the groups
Is there an analogue console with midi functionalities (analogue/digital) that has the capability to offer analogue signal and midi controller capabilities at once? It probably exists, I'm just starting to look into this. Analogue is cool, but makes recalling sessions much harder, so a hybrid console would be perfect to move cubase/protools faders from the analogue faders. ANyone can suggest console names?
Thanks for the video, it was super helpful!
How would you recommend doing an analog mix down from the DAW? Are you able to route the main mix inc the onboard bus comp back into a DAW? Whilst I love mixing in the box, I really would love to get back into an analog flow again :)
Thanks, glad it was helpful! Yes the desk has the main mix output duplicated 3 times which can be routed where ever, so if I patch one output back to pro tools on a stereo channel, I can rout that channel out to patchbay and patch it to the ext 2 track monitor, so I'm listening to the output of the device I'm recording the mix to instead of listening to the mix live, helpful for catching any audible overloads. Mixing on the desk is great fun, so long as the band etc is into it, otherwise its a nightmare, people expect recallls these days!
@@ivanjackman so the downside to mixing on an analog mixer is it’s lack of recall ? I’ve been on the fence regarding an analog mixer to create a hybrid system, but in reality it benefits the front end and monitoring. Going back to make changes on the analog board (regarding a master mix) it would require extensive documentation of all the settings. Am I correct ??
@@neltom50 yes and even the smallest mix tweak will require every piece of equipment used in the mix to be set back to the settings used during the mix.
so useful thank u
Yup
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