What Can This Unusual 1631 Portrait Reveal?
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- Опубліковано 15 вер 2024
- Who is Magdalena Ventura and how did Jusepe de Ribera depict her? Was his depiction fair and respectful or not? Here's a quick glance into the history of bearded women to find out more about this fascinating portrait.
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4:16 "Being French, she owned a café." I love how this implies that all French people just own Cafes.
I'm glad you picked up on it! I made myself chuckle there
Reminds me of that episode of the Flight of the Conchords where they think they’re speaking French, but they’re really just picking up various pastries and breads and such and saying “Ooh la la croissant!” and “Oh haha baguette!”
Everyone knows only 3/4 own cafes. The rest make wine or cheese.
Are you suggesting they don't!?
That’s because they all do and thank god they do too you get a decent bloody meal after hard days work best French cafe in Cardiff owned by a French man bloody soups to die for
There is a condition that effects women called polycystic ovary syndrome. Without going into too much detail, one effect caused by the disorder's effect on the patient's body, is excess hair growth. It is not uncommon for women with PCOS to be able to grow a full beard. A few friends of mine suffer from this condition, but only one has allowed her beard to grow out. She is a performer and an actress who has been in a few movies and popular plays. She's very confident, and I admire her very much.
🧔♀️ 👍
Not everyone with PCOS develops hyperandrogenism. Just a PSA because it’s estimated that 5-15% of women have it and many don’t even know, in part becase it’s very diverse and hard to diagnose.
If you have unexplained irregular periods, ovarian pain, unexplained difficulty with weight loss or appetite, signs of insulin resistance, acne, oily skin and/or unexplained signs of high cortisol or inflammation look into it. It also tends to go hand in hand with many nutrient deficiencies, eating disorders, liver problems, sleep disorders, mood disorders, and cardiovascular disease. So get screened for those, too, if you think you have PCOS!
@@Updog89 agreed
I'm a patient with PCOS. My symptoms present themselves as my inability to bear children, and severe hormonal fluctuations that affect my mental health. I've suffered a total of 9 miscarriages in the past 20 years. I finally got a proper diagnosis, and stopped trying. The subject is documented to have gone through a similar lot.
Honestly, I think more women would grow a beard if they could actually grow a nice, thick one.
I think he was making fun of her. Considering the time period, I think he was implying that Magdalena was more "manly" than her husband and made him look "meek" in comparison, which would have been an insult to both of them at the time. I don't know what Magdalena actually looked like but it's interesting to me that Ribera gave her other very masculine features besides her beard.
Yes, sadly that was somewhat the impression I gained too from their relative depiction? It's upsetting to think how little some of our attitudes about gender & gender interaction have changed in hundreds of years 😵💫 But I do have some hope for the future, seeing some current strong challenges to that rigidity...?
Yes. Women with beards usually have otherwise feminine features.
Yes..somehow it's like Ribera questioning the husband's masculinity and sexual orientation ...
I thought all the same things.
I completely agree.
The only thing throwing me off about this painting is the funky anatomy - it reminds me of Madonna and child paintings from the Middle Ages when her breast would be coming out by her neck.
Some people are pointing out that it could well be that the original model was actually a man and the other stuff was added on.
@@rosesweetcharlotte Oh interesting! I'm sorry, I hadn't read too deeply into the comments when I posted my comment.
"She" also has man hands, a man skull, and is too old to have birthed that baby. Either this is not Magdalena at all, or Magdalena was a male married to a man who wore a leather bag around his/her neck to nurse their baby. In which case, where did the baby come from? This is not good
Yeah it almoast looks like they used a man and then just painted a boob that someone held up from underneath ontop of it. (and they probably tried to make the nip face towards of the baby?thats just the only thing that comes to mind. Otherwise if the boob would be pressed by the clothes,the outer side wouldnt be so round)
@@nineteenfortyeight6762 Adoption isn't new.
I feel like she was depicted as more masculine than she actually was. Because in most cases “bearded ladies” look exactly like they’re described, they are ladies with beards. But this painting clearly depicts a man with breasts, there is no indication of femininity other than the breasts. Her nose, her eyes, the hairline, the lips all look very masculine.
I feel like this was a gross exaggeration of Magdalena’s condition and since it wasn’t enough that she had a beard, he reimagined her to be a man through and through with the exception of breasts. It’s clear the painter doesn’t have any qualms about highlighting and even exaggerating certain eye catching features such as the club foot, so it’s entirely possible the painting is not an accurate depiction and is a derogatory reimagining.
Absolutely. Best comment of the page.
Nah, it's just your average Italian mother.
No, this is the typical result of male puberty on an adult female body, and the painter explicitly wrote "she went through male puberty at age 37".
She looks exactly like a modern female-to-male transexual does after taking male levels of testosterone for several years. Testosterone in the female body causes male puberty which goes way beyond facial hair and includes all the features you mention, and more. It is not the same as PCOS, which is the explanation for most " bearded ladies" extra charms.
For some reason at age 37, her body began producing male levels of testosterone and did so for long enough for her to go through male puberty, so at least a few years. I don't know what specific condition caused that, though we can be sure it was something in her body, because they didn't make exogenous Testosterone in the 17th century.
@@fan2jnrc sorry but it's not, it's just a lack of knowledge
But we don't know what she really looked like or how she presented herself, now do we?
What I find most disturbing about this painting, especially now that I know what it's about. It's the fact that this single breast is physically misplaced on the body. I always believe this to be done as a symbolic message. Knowing noww what the painting is about, I have so many questions.
The painter is implying that she is more man than her husbond. maybe even questioning his sexuality. The single breast together with her very manly look does that. I disagree strongly with "The Canvas" about the conclusion that the painter sympathy with Magdalene and that she is not made into a joke.
That disturbs me putting all things aside . I mean it prolly have a meaning but.... i won't be sleeping tonight
I was irritated by the placement of the single breast on her body as well. Display of manliness aside, I wonder whether the artist simply added the breast as an afterthought later in the painting (as the baby doesn't seem interested in the breast/not breastfeeding at the moment), or he simply had no clue where to place that one single breast on a "manly framed" person. I doubt her body's frame changed drastically with her second puberty, even if her hairgrowth and such did.
Same here, everything else is anatomically correct. So weird.
@@nambnb maybe it was just another way of calling her even more unwomanly
Firstly, I'm impressed that this lady managed to conceive and give birth at the age of 52. Especially when she possibly had hormonal and fertility difficulties.
Secondly, I'm glad her husband doesn't seem to mind her her apparent masculinity, has stood by her and us still evidently attracted to her enough to give her a baby. This was in an era when physical looks were tied up with superstition and anyone who didn't match the ideal was shunned.
Thirdly, the defiance in her gaze, her feeding of the baby - a distinctly female act that no man wpuld have been capable of - the fact that she is bathed in light, the caption informing us that she has already suffered losing three children, she seems to be triumphant and resilient to me. The artist may have originally wanted to mock her, but I'm certainly not laughing at her. I'm in awe of her strength.
This painting is very odd. The breast at which the child is suckling is too high, too round and too far towards the centre of the body and it appears to lack an opposite number.
Yes, flat on the other side as if there’s no breast on the other side. Aside from the fact that the model was clearly a man with a beard, then a breast was added, rather than a woman with a beard, this is unusual in many ways. The one breast that does show appears almost dead, hanging in a very long and grayish way.
Placing breasts that high is weirdly common in images like this. A lot of paintings of the Virgin Mary breastfeeding have them similarly positioned.
It's like a leather bag hanging on a cord around his neck.
@@lonewolf8667 If I recall correctly, it's sort of a method of showing a nursing mother without accusations of obscenity. It unlinks the breast/act of breastfeeding from any actual sense of anatomy. I do wonder if a male model was used to exaggerate the masculinity of the woman for shock effect, given the artist's other work, but I suspect that even if he had been using a woman as a model, the breast would be depicted the same as it is here.
I'm not Sure if I understand it right but those days 3D effect paintings were common placing it right the center brought more comments same as her Extreme Manly face ؛)
I guess the guy knew what to put!
I guess if this Boob wasn't there... we wouldn't be even here.
I do question how accurate his depiction of her is. Her facial bone structure and even her hands look very masculine to the point where it feels like de Ribera was more interested in playing up her masculine features than in creating an accurate portrait. Of course, it's possible that she did simply have a very masculine face and masculine hands but I don't know, it looks quite exaggerated to me.
the male pattern balding is also a bit of a give away. He's just painted a man.
It’s possible it was a gay couple. Catholic Church would never allow marriage between gay people, but maybe they were rich enough to pull off a sham?
@@fleetskipper1810 Seems unlikely that a gay couple trying to pass as a straight couple would have the one posing as the woman wear an enormous full beard, though, no :p?
@@neon-kitty It all depends on the facts of their particular situation. So enticing to want to know exactly what happened here. I would say that it took a lot of money to engage a portrait painter, and this couple did that, and apparently wanted the portrait painted the way it was for a reason. We just will never know that reason.
I agree with that, a back then caricature. We don't know what he thought. Maybe 'This is the picture, how I feel her getting more manly than me and she is able to nurse', or something like that. 🤷🏼🙂
My concern is more the central collarbone breast...
Same. Thinking the subject is turned, but the head is centered in frame and looking straight at viewer, so it’s off to me as well.
It's likely that the portrait doesn't depict the real Magdalena Ventura but rather a male model standing-in for her, which would explain why the breast seems painted-in later on in an odd spot.
My good sir, I was intrigued by art at a young age, but never took it seriously, due to my lack of skill. Hearing your essays makes me realize with great sadness that I have been blind to the world of art. I believe it is because art required me to listen more than I thought. Art required me to be honest, and not hide behind my musical talent. The way you describe these paintings has rocked me to my core, and I cannot thank you enough for being the reason that I might someday become an artist myself
Try making visual art to compliment your musical talent.
check out Florent Farges - arts channel and start painting.
Very best wishes with your creative journey! I think a lot of people get 'put off' trying to engage with art in many ways due to how it's often (unfortunately!) associated with classism & intellectual snobbery, or how the ability to create is often sadly discouraged in young people..?
It often takes encountering somebody who can humanise the subjects & emotionally connected us with the works & their creators to overcome those barriers...
@@annastevens1526 that’s why I recommended Waldemar Janusczak, most of his documentaries are on UA-cam. He doesn’t have a pompous bone in his body.
Skill is hard work. It's not magic - it's sweat.
It sounds like she had Poly Cystic Ovarian syndrome and developed hirsutism. I have it too and wasn’t diagnosed until 27, when I went through a second puberty too. The miscarriages also make sense because the cysts on one’s ovaries make it very hard to have a healthy full term pregnancy. This was a very well done and sensitive piece. But hairy women have not had “mixed” reactions, one trip around instagram will show you that. Bearded women are treated pretty terribly. Our ideas of gender are so rigid, that if you step outside that line even a little, you are heavily derided. But I hope that’s changing.
America (and Instagram) isn't the world.
Maybe realize that.
@@Bizarro69 if majority of the world is like that maybe it makes sense to think like that.
@@Bizarro69 European here, it ain't pretty over here either and don't get me startet on Asia, especially east Asia. Humans suck all over the world, get over it.
It’s literally a deformity. It should be mocked not to copy. It’s also a gene that shouldn’t be passed on.
Well shared. Thank you for the insight. Sounds to be a miserable situation, hope you are mostly okay! Oh and, that is how a painfully full breast looks. Rather bulbus and nowhere near the armpit. My spine is bad but I had two babies that survived, so...there's that. :) I think having a full beard would be awesome!
I feel that this painting depicts, ingeniously, an individual of moral strength and fortuitous character. There is determination and resolve in the posture and expression. The grip on the infant is steadfast but eerily aloof, almost gentile in contrast to how the other elements are depicted. This is a portrait of someone who is secure in their station within this family, a protector and provider (even if not of financial means). It seems to me that the notion that this person is a woman seems to be a fleeting thought.
I love your work so much. Passionate people talking about art has really given me a new and strong appreciation for it. Thank you❤️
The reason Magdalena looks more physiologically masculine than most bearded ladies is explained by the painter.
Most bearded ladies' extra charms are ogten due to PCOS, and those women tend to look like most women except for having more hair. In some cases PCOS might mean slightly higher testosterone than is typical for females. However it rarely means male puberty levels of testosterone.
The painter explicitly wrote ON THE PAINTING that Magdalena "went through male puberty at age 37". That means something specific, medically. Male puberty means she consistently had a male level of testosterone present for at least several yrs. A beard is the least of it. It changes musculature, skin, fat distribution, vasculature, shape of face, hands, pores, body density, causes male pattern baldness/thinning, and many other things a painting cannot capture so we don't know if she experienced (thickening of vocal chords causing deeper voice, a typical male sweat and scent, a typical male pattern of arousal, clitoromegaly, etc).
The typical result of male puberty on a female body is the person looks, smells, sounds, etc like a typical male and is virtually indistinguishable from men, unless you see the persons breasts or genitals.
This is the same result that trans men ie female-to-male-transexuals, have when they take adult male levels of testosterone consistently for several yrs. Obviously in Magdalena's case she did not choose to go through male puberty and something in her body caused this, because we didn't have exogenous hormones in the 17th century. But this is very much what a male level of testosterone does to a female body.
this is the typical result of male puberty on an adult female body, and the painter explicitly wrote "she went through male puberty at age 37".
She looks exactly like a modern female-to-male transexual does after taking male levels of testosterone for several years. Testosterone in the female body causes male puberty which goes way beyond facial hair and includes all the features you mention, and more. It is not the same as PCOS, which is the explanation for most " bearded ladies" extra charms.
For some reason at age 37, her body began producing male levels of testosterone and did so for long enough for her to go through male puberty, so at least a few years. I don't know what specific condition caused that, though we can be sure it was something in her body, because they didn't make exogenous Testosterone in the 17th century.
I love how someone realized the importance of different Intersex conditions in why she looked different than other bearded ladies! Also, thanks for the medically accurate descriptions of transitioning in Female-to-Male transgender people. It's rare to find so much good info in a UA-cam comment section.
Been following you since I've seen Stancyk. This, sir, is some quality analysis. Based af.
I think it's an insult and a lampoon. I've actually met two bearded women, I worked with one who suffered from hormonal issues, both were otherwise obviously feminine and in fact very pretty. This painting has made the subject more masculine than her husband. So masculine that the possibility of her having sufficient female hormones to ovulate seems highly unlikely. Many conditions make a woman become bearded but several of the most common adversely affect fertility. Also, at the time most women (due to diet) became infertile earlier than is usually the case today, this subject looks closer to 50 than 40. Well past child bearing age. I think this is a piece of side show fakery or else, as already stated, the painter has deliberately added more and more manly features to lampoon his subject.
Also the breast is misplaced anatomically which again bespeaks lampoon or fakery in a very deliberate almost careless fashion.
S G >>>> HELLO! THANK YOU FOR THINKING & LOOKING with your own eyes! This is LGBTQ agenda driven political absurdity. ===>>>> This is POLITICAL SATIRE not real portrait, but a portrayal ==> For such an atomically correct painter, why is the bulging breast incorrectly placed? Its too high & center of the chest. Something isn't making sense here & could it be a Political Satire? Not looking a lot more into this painting, though the use of Odd Folks whose heads are those of political or public persons used to portray political messages. Was this 'wife' portrayed as the real Man of the house to impart an inversion of power? 'She' has no other feminine features aside from the incorrectly placed bulbous breast feeding a child that is improbably born at 'her' age. deRibera is said a miscreant & unwelcome on the Naples art scene, having arrived fleeing from Creditors in Rome, already acting like a jew & head of a cabal whose acts against other artists alienated him. POLITICAL SATIRE seems more apropos, as Spanish overrule was not favored at all. The breast is clearly FAKERY.
Note en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jusepe_de_Ribera:
"He has been characterized as selfishly protecting his prosperity, and is reputed to have been chief of the so-called Cabal of Naples,"
The misplacement of the breast, in stark contrast to the realism of the rest of the painting is jarring. He seemed to have the skill to accurately paint a figure, but totally failed in a crucial spot, i can't help to wonder why.
Did the woman not pose for the painting? Nudes were common, so why paint the breast from imagination and do it so horridly??
She was 52 but gave birth? Extremely unlikely. This seems to me to be worse than the club foot boy. This is a skilled painter who has purposely chosen to paint a man nursing a child from a fictitious breast growing from his clavicle. This painter understands human anatomy. He likely had a man pose and just added one monstrous breast.
@@michelepaccione8806 I believe that men in all times, had wondered about women and their power of birthing, since men had power over everything else.. this is one they can’t comprehend and do it through paintings movies and other ways JS
A lot of painting from the time have breasts in very odd positions. Like you should see some of the painting people have made of the virgin Mary lol
@@ccrider7047 It's one of the reasons that drove the witch hunts in Europe, which is why midwives were often accused and murdered. The men had little to no understanding of childbirth, and it was even rumored that the midwife could transfer the pain of childbirth to the father, which not only scared the piss out of them but was also against "God's will" as it was supposed to be Eve's curse. It's theorized that we lost a lot of knowledge about women and childbirth because of these witch hunts.
@@morganalabeille5004 If you look at his other work, he knew the human form very well.
I was really confused when I saw the thumbnail for this video, but you did an amazing job of explaining this gorgeous portrait. You opened my mind. Thank you so much for pointing out her strength; it's inspiring. ❤️
Gail Fattori - unfortunately this explanation is INCORRECT, instead leading one to "believe" in this cockamamie "interpretation". This POLITICAL AGENDA BIAS by an agenda driven narrative!! This is POLITICAL SATIRE not real portrait, but a portrayal ==> For such an atomically correct painter, why is the bulging breast incorrectly placed? Its too high & center of the chest. Something isn't making sense here & could it be a Political Satire? Not looking a lot more into this painting, though the use of Odd Folks whose heads are those of political or public persons used to portray political messages. Was this 'wife' portrayed as the real Man of the house to impart an inversion of power? 'She' has no other feminine features aside from the incorrectly placed bulbous breast feeding a child that is improbably born at 'her' age. deRibera is said a miscreant & unwelcome on the Naples art scene, having arrived fleeing from Creditors in Rome, already acting like a jew & head of a cabal whose acts against other artists alienated him. POLITICAL SATIRE seems more apropos, as Spanish overrule was not favored at all. The breast is clearly FAKERY.
Note en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jusepe_de_Ribera: "He has been characterized as selfishly protecting his prosperity, and is reputed to have been chief of the so-called Cabal of Naples,"
My parents went to Madrid years ago and my mother bought me a copy of this painting in the gift shop. It was so odd, she knew that I would love it, which I do. Until now, I never knew anything about it. I’m so happy to find out something about it in this very interesting video. Thank you.
David Farmer - Keep looking! This artist was unwelcome, as was Spanish overrule in Italy. de Ribera was a nasty infiltrator along with Spanish jews who sought to control Italy. This is POLITICAL SATIRE not real portrait, but a portrayal ==> For such an atomically correct painter, why is the bulging breast incorrectly placed? Its too high & center of the chest. Something isn't making sense here & could it be a Political Satire? Not looking a lot more into this painting, though the use of Odd Folks whose heads are those of political or public persons used to portray political messages. Was this 'wife' portrayed as the real Man of the house to impart an inversion of power? 'She' has no other feminine features aside from the incorrectly placed bulbous breast feeding a child that is improbably born at 'her' age. deRibera is said a miscreant & unwelcome on the Naples art scene, having arrived fleeing from Creditors in Rome, already acting like a jew & head of a cabal whose acts against other artists alienated him. POLITICAL SATIRE seems more apropos, as Spanish overrule was not favored at all. The breast is clearly FAKERY.
Note en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jusepe_de_Ribera:
"He has been characterized as selfishly protecting his prosperity, and is reputed to have been chief of the so-called Cabal of Naples,"
Surely I can't be the only one who doesn't find the depiction of the boy dehumanising? In fact, it seems highly sympathetic and full of joy.
I agree - I think he looks like a very likeable kid. I don't get the impression that Ribera is making fun of him or of Magdalena, but in both cases just giving his patron what he wanted - provocative paintings of "unusual" people. To that end he may have played up certain aspects (I do wonder if Magdalena really looked as masculine as Ribera depicts her), but I don't feel like his intent is to mock either one of them.
having a bigger beard than your husband is a sigma female move
This portrait is done with great care and tenderness - it is quietly reverent of a miraculous fact. I'd not seen it before this, and I thank you for the care you took to present this piece so well.💐
Es un retrato muy interesante y como bien dices, el sujeto principal está descrito con gran dignidad y sin asomo de burla o de morbo. Una obra muy bella.
People in the comments saying that a woman who grows a beard would 'still look feminine' clearly have no idea how strongly hormones alone can affect one's appearance. Seriously, plenty of trans women who go on estrogen actually get shorter because they're on estrogen and plenty of trans men get big blocky hands and a more masculine frame from testosterone. If she 'went through a second puberty' she'd obviously start looking super different because of all that testosterone in her system!
lol hormones dont change your bones unless you mean under 18 transitioning
@@eehee2428 Maybe not, we haven't exactly studied how hormonal changes affect bones in adult trans people for very long, especially people for going on testosterone. But different hormones certainly can change the way cartalige and fat sits on the body, which has a massive effect on how someone is shaped.
Mulheres trans não encolhem usando estrogênio, isso nem faz sentido. E minhas mãos não cresceram o bastante pra serem consideradas masculinas.
@@diodeuso The cartilage between the bones of some trans women's spines as well as the rotation of their hips (Which is something that happens after long-term estrogen use but is rarely discussed due to lack of acknowledgement from doctors) has made quite a few trans women shrink and inch or two.
As for your hands- that's only your experience, with T. Both a friend and I have seen our fingers grow longer and palms get blockier/wider due to T. For reference, I'm in my 20s, and haven't been on t very long while my friend is in his 40s and hasn't been on it long either, but longer than me.
I have been told by a trans friend that she has actually gone down shoe sizes because apparently the hormones effect some cartilage or something in the feet that cause them to shrink somewhat.
I'm so impressed with Goya's talent...the woman's face straight up glows.
As a post menopausal Woman i have hair on my chin now and it is getting more.. Not too much that i can easily shave it tho... and have seen many other Women have it as well. Gr8ful She was described as a miracle of nature...❤lovely... Transgender is fo realz imho
Growing more facial hair (just as different fat-distrubution on the body) is normal post-menopause, both are homone-dependend. Old men en old women grown undistinguisable at a certain point, where they are just "very old humans".
Gender stays the same, just the way it presents changes a bit :)
THIS IS NOT A WOMAN it is a Man! ===> This is POLITICAL SATIRE not real portrait, but a portrayal ==> For such an atomically correct painter, why is the bulging breast incorrectly placed? Its too high & center of the chest. Something isn't making sense here & could it be a Political Satire? Not looking a lot more into this painting, though the use of Odd Folks whose heads are those of political or public persons used to portray political messages. Was this 'wife' portrayed as the real Man of the house to impart an inversion of power? 'She' has no other feminine features aside from the incorrectly placed bulbous breast feeding a child that is improbably born at 'her' age. deRibera is said a miscreant & unwelcome on the Naples art scene, having arrived fleeing from Creditors in Rome, already acting like a jew & head of a cabal whose acts against other artists alienated him. POLITICAL SATIRE seems more apropos, as Spanish overrule was not favored at all. The breast is clearly FAKERY.
Note en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jusepe_de_Ribera:
"He has been characterized as selfishly protecting his prosperity, and is reputed to have been chief of the so-called Cabal of Naples,"
But if she is 52 in this painting and went through a radical hormonal change that brought forward many masculine features, how did she get pregnant and how was she able to brest feed?
The odd placement of one the breast can be found in other paintings, although not so late in art history. Even if Magdalena sat for him, he probably never saw her naked, and the brest is only meant to be a symbol to underline that she was a woman. It didn't need to be anatomically correct.
I'd like to know more about the head piece. It seems to me that it doesn't look like what women used to wear. I would also like to know about the white cloth pending from her arm down her skirt. It could tell a lot about the back ground of the family.
Why would women of 50 or 51 not be able to get pregnant and bear children? As long as there is a cycle (aka "hormones-enough and eggs to be fertlized" and a male around to fertilize them).
Most of the women in my family (generations) do not start menopauze (well the serious part where the menstruation no longer occurs/or at least get seriously messed up) until age of 55- 56.
Of course they were too clever to keep having children at that advanced age, but it is not impossible...
Women with hormonal issues esp. are know to suddenly conceive when they are getting very old (for conceiving/childbearing-age) exactly because their cycles become a mess and somehow they "get lucky".
@@muurrarium9460 They are referencing that people are saying she went through an actual "second puberty" with tons of testosterone and she actually look highly masculine.
But as the above comment says it would be hard for her to produce enough testosterone that she looks like a man but also be pregnant and breastfeed.
It feels like people just want to defend the painter no matter what
@@ariannasilva4462 Exactly that: high testosterone and pregnancy are not a viable combination.
I would love it if is was just "2 guys and their baby", because: why not... If a child is loved, get raised right, and becomes another beautifull, kind and caring, human being; who cares if it was raised by a traditional male and female combo, a grand mother, a grandfather, the neighbours, some nice gay couple from across town etc.etc..
Great looking very detailed painting, with an ugly centerboob. Would not hang it on my wall *ever* ;)
Awesome Video, I love the way you have presented this information without the goal of creating a conclusion for your audience, but to rather give us the relevant information to formulate a question, allowing us to create our own inferences. I have subscribed and am looking forward to seeing more of your content!
P.S I would recommend doing a small EQ on your audio or perhaps getting a diffuser to go in front of your mic. The quality of your videos is of such a high quality and the only thing taking away from their polished, professional feel is a small amount of audio distortion which sounds like it might be due to air hitting the mic when you pronounce certain syllables.
Tolkien fans be like: FINALLY SOMEONE GOT DWARVEN WOMEN RIGHT!!!
There are no dwarf women in middle earth in the same way that Dumbledore is not (meaningfully) gay
Hahaha, what a funny comment to make on a video about the dehumanization of bearded women.
@@laureloneiros1500 Did they reproduce asexually?
@@laureloneiros1500 In middle earth everybody eats and drinks, but nobody ever needs a toiletbreak either!
Tolkien was far more interested in languages than he was in biology ;)
@@daphner7045
tbh, i am surprised how comparatively tolerant and understanding people back in the day were.
i see her as powerful and brave, she has a certain regal energy.
yes to me it looks like a serious portrait.
Thank you for this video, I've always wondered about this work and it was helpful to have it put in context. I've learned so much in the past few years about the spectrum that is gender, and this work gives me more to consider.
Gender is not a spectrum, but the way it expresses itself in humans is soo varied :)
We finally have gotten rid of the "either Barbie or Ken"- type of thinking, imposed by the filmindustry etc..
This painting is not real portrait!! Good Lord, People, this is POLITICAL SATIRE not real portrait, but a portrayal ==> For such an atomically correct painter, why is the bulging breast incorrectly placed? Its too high & center of the chest. Something isn't making sense here & could it be a Political Satire? Not looking a lot more into this painting, though the use of Odd Folks whose heads are those of political or public persons used to portray political messages. Was this 'wife' portrayed as the real Man of the house to impart an inversion of power? 'She' has no other feminine features aside from the incorrectly placed bulbous breast feeding a child that is improbably born at 'her' age. deRibera is said a miscreant & unwelcome on the Naples art scene, having arrived fleeing from Creditors in Rome, already acting like a jew & head of a cabal whose acts against other artists alienated him. POLITICAL SATIRE seems more apropos, as Spanish overrule was not favored at all. The breast is clearly FAKERY.
Note en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jusepe_de_Ribera:
"He has been characterized as selfishly protecting his prosperity, and is reputed to have been chief of the so-called Cabal of Naples,"
I suffer from PCO. I can grow a full beard. I know this because I dont shave in my holidays. Its red and thick and soft. My body is quite feminin apart from being hairy. I was told since I was sixteen that I would be able to have children. Surprisingly I had a daughter at 41.
very interesting. A stunning painting for sure. I would only hope and pray I could paint with such subtlety
How in God's name can you review this painting without pointing out what is in even more obvious than the beard. I would think you would be talking about the misplaced uni breast. What it looks like to me is too old men one of which has a single breast an extremely firm and round breast. Without your explanation I would assume that this was not to be viewed as realistic but as symbolic. The other thing is this woman with the beard had a baby at 53 years old you say???? Damn the beard is one thing but come on, a woman with a single breast that gave birth at 53!! The facial hair is secondary to importance. when you think of a woman with a beard, they still look like women. This truly was a miracle! Simply to give birth at 53 when most people's lifespan at that time was probably about 45!!
Actually, you could live well into your 50s and 60s in the 1600s. The reason that the average age is so low is because it’s skewed by the infant and maternal mortality rate.
@@queerbotanicalqueen Yeah, but by 50-60 you'd be considered (and would be) practically ancient. But also, how did she have a child following _male_ puberty? Is it even theoretically possible? To me, personally, this painting is not of a real woman at all. It looks as if it's either 2 men (the gay couple theory mentioned in the comments here is very interesting) or something symbolic (single misplaced breast: of course it could be that painter just never saw female body, I don't know, like Michelangelo, who painted his male lovers/models and then stuck boobs onto them in random places). Though I'm no art historian of course.
Danny Donnelly >>> THANK YOU for not falling for this Politically Correct divisive LGBTQ agenda driven fakery! ===>>> This is POLITICAL SATIRE not real portrait, but a portrayal ==> For such an atomically correct painter, why is the bulging breast incorrectly placed? Its too high & center of the chest. Something isn't making sense here & could it be a Political Satire? Not looking a lot more into this painting, though the use of Odd Folks whose heads are those of political or public persons used to portray political messages. Was this 'wife' portrayed as the real Man of the house to impart an inversion of power? 'She' has no other feminine features aside from the incorrectly placed bulbous breast feeding a child that is improbably born at 'her' age. deRibera is said a miscreant & unwelcome on the Naples art scene, having arrived fleeing from Creditors in Rome, already acting like a jew & head of a cabal whose acts against other artists alienated him. POLITICAL SATIRE seems more apropos, as Spanish overrule was not favored at all. The breast is clearly FAKERY.
Note en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jusepe_de_Ribera:
"He has been characterized as selfishly protecting his prosperity, and is reputed to have been chief of the so-called Cabal of Naples,"
Err…..anyone going to comment on this woman having a baby at 52 years old? So many anomalieswith age, gender identity, anatomy and cryptic attribution that I think the commentary is suspect.
I know someone that had 3 healthy daughters in her very late 40s. It's possible. Could a surge of hormones be to blame? Could the person be intersex? Still leaves the middle boob to be explained tho!
I also wonder if the couple were short on cash because I would not agree to this painting without considerable payment...
David Johnson, THANK YOU FOR THINKING & SEEING WITH YOUR OWN EYES >>>> This is POLITICAL SATIRE not real portrait, but a portrayal ==> For such an atomically correct painter, why is the bulging breast incorrectly placed? Its too high & center of the chest. Something isn't making sense here & could it be a Political Satire? Not looking a lot more into this painting, though the use of Odd Folks whose heads are those of political or public persons used to portray political messages. Was this 'wife' portrayed as the real Man of the house to impart an inversion of power? 'She' has no other feminine features aside from the incorrectly placed bulbous breast feeding a child that is improbably born at 'her' age. deRibera is said a miscreant & unwelcome on the Naples art scene, having arrived fleeing from Creditors in Rome, already acting like a jew & head of a cabal whose acts against other artists alienated him. POLITICAL SATIRE seems more apropos, as Spanish overrule was not favored at all. The breast is clearly FAKERY.
Note en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jusepe_de_Ribera:
"He has been characterized as selfishly protecting his prosperity, and is reputed to have been chief of the so-called Cabal of Naples,"
your channel is such a treat!
It is perhaps relevant that there was a trend towards "brutal reality" in Spanish painting at the time, also seen in some of Velazquez's paintings, where even ancient gods look like people from the street.
An interesting point to note is that her husband is present. He didn't abandon her when she changed.
That painting isn't of a woman. Even without the beard, that's a man's face. Not to mention women's breasts don't grow out of their collar bones near the center of their body...thank god, that would be awkward. I also don't notice modeling for the second grapfruit-shaped breast there anywhere, it's as tho this is a guy wearing a boob-shaped bag around his neck. I'm calling shenanigans on Ribera. He made it up as he went along (and needed serious help with women's anatomy). There could have been a bearded lady, and maayybe she had a kid at 52 in the 1600's (though unlikely), but no way she looked like that. I think the painter intentionally turned her into a man for the entertainment of his patron. Insulting really.
I’m just impressed that a 52 year-old woman can give birth
hell, im surprised she's 52 years old in this era!
I think this painting is also a legal document.
Even though she has a beard and all, aside from that, the position of her breast is to prove she is fully a female and lactating. Thus, the reason for the full breast - proving for legal reasons she is a female and the mother. It's not someone else's kid. Perhaps at the time and her unusual age this was important and ignorant people found it hard to believe. People may have had odd notions about her and her husband's relationship since she looked like a man. Maybe even for inheritance reasons this was significant?
She was brave to face this but a good mother would. She did this for her husband and child who could have faced difficulties if this was not proven. Like saying it's the real deal even if I have a beard and hair loss. If you cover her face and see the rest of her figure, you would probably think it was a woman holding a child because it looks very feminine.
You make a really good point. Another explanation might be that this is a wealthy gay couple who wanted children. They commissioned the portrait to show to the world that the child was their legal heir.
In my opinion, it is a beautyfull painting. In anyway. Rembrandt might have painted it. And that 'the man' is a woman and the mother of the child, does not strike me as odd. Maybe because painted so naturally, simple, loving, caring, warm. This painting is all about love.
Fantastic portrait by a renowned master of Spain's Golden Age. Truly incredible on many levels.
Krisahn Williams - This is NOT what its said to be! NO! This interpretation is LGBTQ agenda pushing >>>> This is POLITICAL SATIRE not real portrait, but a portrayal ==> For such an atomically correct painter, why is the bulging breast incorrectly placed? Its too high & center of the chest. Something isn't making sense here & could it be a Political Satire? Not looking a lot more into this painting, though the use of Odd Folks whose heads are those of political or public persons used to portray political messages. Was this 'wife' portrayed as the real Man of the house to impart an inversion of power? 'She' has no other feminine features aside from the incorrectly placed bulbous breast feeding a child that is improbably born at 'her' age. deRibera is said a miscreant & unwelcome on the Naples art scene, having arrived fleeing from Creditors in Rome, already acting like a jew & head of a cabal whose acts against other artists alienated him. POLITICAL SATIRE seems more apropos, as Spanish overrule was not favored at all. The breast is clearly FAKERY.
Note en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jusepe_de_Ribera:
"He has been characterized as selfishly protecting his prosperity, and is reputed to have been chief of the so-called Cabal of Naples,"
I think he's selling the shock value.. So the subject's qualities probably were exaggerated.. Just probably though.
Etienne Brownless - YES. YES. YES. >>>>> This is POLITICAL SATIRE not real portrait, but a portrayal ==> For such an atomically correct painter, why is the bulging breast incorrectly placed? Its too high & center of the chest. Something isn't making sense here & could it be a Political Satire? Not looking a lot more into this painting, though the use of Odd Folks whose heads are those of political or public persons used to portray political messages. Was this 'wife' portrayed as the real Man of the house to impart an inversion of power? 'She' has no other feminine features aside from the incorrectly placed bulbous breast feeding a child that is improbably born at 'her' age. deRibera is said a miscreant & unwelcome on the Naples art scene, having arrived fleeing from Creditors in Rome, already acting like a jew & head of a cabal whose acts against other artists alienated him. POLITICAL SATIRE seems more apropos, as Spanish overrule was not favored at all. The breast is clearly FAKERY.
Note en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jusepe_de_Ribera:
"He has been characterized as selfishly protecting his prosperity, and is reputed to have been chief of the so-called Cabal of Naples,"
Thank you. I've never seen this portrait, but it does appear to be a masterpiece. I've been an advocate, at least in my own mind, for the complete abolishing of gender norms. I fully believe that women and men should not be expected to behave in any gender-specific way simply because of what is between their legs. I think women should be allowed to wear a tuxedo without repercussions to the Met Gala and men should be allowed to wear an evening gown to the same affair without social repercussions. I also think the idea of "men" and "women" is ridiculous on its face. If someone is capable of doing something, they should not be ostracized and marginalized whether they've got male genitalia or female genitalia, but instead should be held up as human without the constraints of gender norms. I know many, many men who would give their left testicle to be allowed to wear a dress in public without being ridiculed and called a women. I also know many women who are very burly truck drivers and they're constantly criticized for every little thing they do wrong, even though their male counterparts perform 1/2 as well and get away with twice as many infractions.
Again, I just wanted to thank you for making this video. It's great and I'ma share it all over. :)
Knowing what we do of the education of these masterful painters they knew something of the esoteric studies of the masculine and feminine principles. Many of these paintings, including this one only interest the painter if they are also able to give clues to their philosophy. I can’t say for certain but just looking at it, it seems rife with symbols as well as a certain recognition of the dark edge of life. That place where light and dark meet and you can’t quite count on the rules being as you know them anywhere else. Brilliant painting and great video
If she was 52 at the time of the painting, who's baby is that? Couldn't be hers. She's painted so masculine that I wonder if she wasn't really a he - beyond the text presented, is there really any way to verify? Either way, she doesn't look particularly loving or bemused in the painting.
Why not? Elder women have been recorded to conceive (at prolly 50 or 51, babies need some incubation-time ;) )
As long as the hormones are still there, and some eggs...conceiving is not that unknown of.
Not every woman has gone throug meno-pause at that age.
(I am 52, monthly cycles still going strong, ugh so fed up with them! But all the women in my family have been regularly menstruating till 55-56 for generations...)
I agree on the "Men with an improvised boob" btw. , on the plus side: that baby is not in any danger of being dropped; good strong hands there.
T.F. Schroeder >>> YES! This is a politically biased narritive interpretation pushing LGBTQ agenda. >>>> This is POLITICAL SATIRE not real portrait, but a portrayal ==> For such an atomically correct painter, why is the bulging breast incorrectly placed? Its too high & center of the chest. Something isn't making sense here & could it be a Political Satire? Not looking a lot more into this painting, though the use of Odd Folks whose heads are those of political or public persons used to portray political messages. Was this 'wife' portrayed as the real Man of the house to impart an inversion of power? 'She' has no other feminine features aside from the incorrectly placed bulbous breast feeding a child that is improbably born at 'her' age. deRibera is said a miscreant & unwelcome on the Naples art scene, having arrived fleeing from Creditors in Rome, already acting like a jew & head of a cabal whose acts against other artists alienated him. POLITICAL SATIRE seems more apropos, as Spanish overrule was not favored at all. The breast is clearly FAKERY.
Note en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jusepe_de_Ribera:
"He has been characterized as selfishly protecting his prosperity, and is reputed to have been chief of the so-called Cabal of Naples,"
@@muurrarium9460 - OHH STOP IT! Oh Puhleeze with the LGBTQ agenda narrative! Come on! How is so many are completely ignoring the obvious? Well, the vast majority of the useful idiot ignorant masses just consented to be injected with poisons... So there ya have it! >>>> This is POLITICAL SATIRE not real portrait, but a portrayal ==> For such an atomically correct painter, why is the bulging breast incorrectly placed? Its too high & center of the chest. Something isn't making sense here & could it be a Political Satire? Not looking a lot more into this painting, though the use of Odd Folks whose heads are those of political or public persons used to portray political messages. Was this 'wife' portrayed as the real Man of the house to impart an inversion of power? 'She' has no other feminine features aside from the incorrectly placed bulbous breast feeding a child that is improbably born at 'her' age. deRibera is said a miscreant & unwelcome on the Naples art scene, having arrived fleeing from Creditors in Rome, already acting like a jew & head of a cabal whose acts against other artists alienated him. POLITICAL SATIRE seems more apropos, as Spanish overrule was not favored at all. The breast is clearly FAKERY.
Note en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jusepe_de_Ribera:
"He has been characterized as selfishly protecting his prosperity, and is reputed to have been chief of the so-called Cabal of Naples,"
I love this painting in Bangladesh when I was a kid I saw many of what you call freak shows. It shows how many ways bodies and flesh can be malformed. It most likely was one of my early inspirations to get into medical science.
Liping Rahman >>>> ITS NOT A PORTRAIT, it is >>>> POLITICAL SATIRE not real portrait, but a portrayal ==> For such an atomically correct painter, why is the bulging breast incorrectly placed? Its too high & center of the chest. Something isn't making sense here & could it be a Political Satire? Not looking a lot more into this painting, though the use of Odd Folks whose heads are those of political or public persons used to portray political messages. Was this 'wife' portrayed as the real Man of the house to impart an inversion of power? 'She' has no other feminine features aside from the incorrectly placed bulbous breast feeding a child that is improbably born at 'her' age. deRibera is said a miscreant & unwelcome on the Naples art scene, having arrived fleeing from Creditors in Rome, already acting like a jew & head of a cabal whose acts against other artists alienated him. POLITICAL SATIRE seems more apropos, as Spanish overrule was not favored at all. The breast is clearly FAKERY.
Note en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jusepe_de_Ribera:
"He has been characterized as selfishly protecting his prosperity, and is reputed to have been chief of the so-called Cabal of Naples,"
This portrait seems to me supernatural, god-like, in that it depicts both maternal nurturing and paternal protectiveness in one all-embracing figure.
Your point of her husband standing behind her and she is the focus of attention with the baby is vital. If her husband was not in the picture I think the balance would be lost and an insult would be foremost in my mind. Very interesting thank you.
Perhaps Magdalena is being portrayed as a strong figure. Kind of a breadwinner or head of the household. Since at that time, masculinity or men are more powerful than women, her features were more that of a male. It reminds me of that one true story about a woman posing as a man or cross dressing as one to be able to work, because in their culture, females should be left at home and men should be the breadwinners, the ones working.
In my perspective, the painting is implying that women can be like a man.
I used to live in Italy, its fairly common to see menopausal women with very vigorous thick mustaches. By th a t I mean as thick as any man's. Really, we need to open up to variation and stop judging people badly because they don't conform to societies preconceptions regarding gender. Variations do occur, we should be kind and not judgemental.
Many people are commenting on the position of her breast. Remember that women of this period wore stays. This was a firm bodice with a low neckline under their clothes. The breast is popped out over the top of the stays. This is why her breast is high, round and more central than expected.
Yeah they are talking about how position of breast is soo wrongg.. What is this...
No one acknowledging the art.
But this stupid point..
Awesome as usual !
'I don't know where boobs go, I'll just stick it here'
I think the more remarkable consideration is a woman gave birth to a baby at age 52? There may be more to the story than we know, but it’s certainly a thought-provoking image. There’s much I don’t like in our modern age, but I am grateful that greater sensitivity and kindness is shown to people with physical differences. True, I have read that some actually earned a good living, but probably the majority were exploited. I don’t know if it is accurate, but the movie about the Elephant Man always touches me when the doctor first sees John and sheds a tear in compassion.
Subject matter aside, I think this painting is magnificent.
I remember seeing this painting in a relatively small gallery in Toledo some 35 years ago. The figures were painted a little under life size. The painting was executed with all of Ribera's skill, with attention to form and material texture. It struck me as a picture of great dignity and humanity. Seeing it again, it does seem that the breast is strangely configured, possibly the subject's modesty, didn't permit painting her entirely from life.
Stephen Rose >>>> It has nothing to do with reality >>>> This LBGTQ agenda driven interpretation is a hoax! How can any art enthusiast who is true & serious MAKE SUCH ABSURD CLAIMS??? >>>>> This is POLITICAL SATIRE not real portrait, but a portrayal ==> For such an atomically correct painter, why is the bulging breast incorrectly placed? Its too high & center of the chest. Something isn't making sense here & could it be a Political Satire? Not looking a lot more into this painting, though the use of Odd Folks whose heads are those of political or public persons used to portray political messages. Was this 'wife' portrayed as the real Man of the house to impart an inversion of power? 'She' has no other feminine features aside from the incorrectly placed bulbous breast feeding a child that is improbably born at 'her' age. deRibera is said a miscreant & unwelcome on the Naples art scene, having arrived fleeing from Creditors in Rome, already acting like a jew & head of a cabal whose acts against other artists alienated him. POLITICAL SATIRE seems more apropos, as Spanish overrule was not favored at all. The breast is clearly FAKERY.
Note en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jusepe_de_Ribera:
"He has been characterized as selfishly protecting his prosperity, and is reputed to have been chief of the so-called Cabal of Naples,"
It's like that scene in smiling friends
It's not a portrait, it's an icon. And everything what is depicted on an icon is not reality but metaphor! 😀
I feel like the artist saw an opportunity; a subject worthy of renown.
Looking into their faces, I am reminded of Crumb's sketch, titled, "Face Reality!!!" of a man holding another, by the back of the head, very tightly, ordering him to "Take a good look!".
Why, if the subject was a bearded woman, is the rest of her so overtly masculine in appearance ? Women w / beards still have feminine faces (?)
well not necessarily. beard growth can be due to a higher than average level of testosterone in their bodies, which would presumably lead to a less “feminine” face. but i’m no expert and i’m sure there’s many conditions with many different side effects that include facial hair on those who may not usually have it
@@fiverfrank :: That sounds reasonable. I was just shocked at the full-male appearance of the artist's rendition ... _a man_ with a breast, breastfeeding ... looks like some _weird_ stuff at first glance.
@@cliffgaither thats fair, it is uncommon
@@cliffgaither And also she's in her fifties in a time that people won't necessarily live longer than that, plus she does not seem like the kind of carefree, house chores-exempt nobility.
@@chaook :: Good point !
4:29....She was even granted permission by the government to wear men’s clothes.
The idea that a woman wearing men’s clothing being illegal in France is astounding to me.
Her. Magdalena has some mighty strong manly hands.
I realise there are hormonal disorders, but in the current year this just hits different
I assume the painter didn’t really know how to portray her so give her male face
ieatmice :: that is exactly what i don't understand ... the painting is striking ... at first you can't comphrend what the artist is trying to convey & especially from that time period ... then we discover the person is a bearded "woman" ... OK ! but bearded women still have the faces of women ... surely the artist could have captured her real face --- w / the beard !
@@cliffgaither that’s an interesting use of punctuation
@@ieatmice751 :: in what way, exactly ?
It's likely that the portrait doesn't depict the real Magdalena Ventura but rather a male model standing-in for her. That also might explain why the breast seems painted-in later on in an odd spot.
Perhaps Jusepe de Ribera never met her or met her only once, and/or she didn't want to pose for him.
Maybe, but it’s hard to believe that an artist with this level of skill couldn’t portray a female face and add facial hair to it. The hands and arms look male as well, and she seems to be lacking the second breast. I looked at Rivera’s other works and he seems to have been very good with proportions.
Really neat seeing a representation of an intersex woman from back then.
I just stumbled across your channel. I’m seeing art I’ve never seen before. And probably will never have the opportunity to see irl. This particular painting is sadly moving. If what is described about this mother is true… I wonder if she was a hermaphrodite. Or what other genetic or condition caused her to go through puberty at 37 and have three miscarriages prior… otherwise how can you have miscarriages/pregnancones if you haven’t went through puberty? A bit confusing as I am no doctor. it’s really sad how we have been taught to treat human beings that are different than most. And it still goes on today. That’s the melancholy I feel in this painting.
Phoebe Smith - Please, do some research. This is NOT as presented === >>> This is POLITICAL SATIRE not real portrait, but a portrayal ==> For such an atomically correct painter, why is the bulging breast incorrectly placed? Its too high & center of the chest. Something isn't making sense here & could it be a Political Satire? Not looking a lot more into this painting, though the use of Odd Folks whose heads are those of political or public persons used to portray political messages. Was this 'wife' portrayed as the real Man of the house to impart an inversion of power? 'She' has no other feminine features aside from the incorrectly placed bulbous breast feeding a child that is improbably born at 'her' age. deRibera is said a miscreant & unwelcome on the Naples art scene, having arrived fleeing from Creditors in Rome, already acting like a jew & head of a cabal whose acts against other artists alienated him. POLITICAL SATIRE seems more apropos, as Spanish overrule was not favored at all. The breast is clearly FAKERY.
Note en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jusepe_de_Ribera:
"He has been characterized as selfishly protecting his prosperity, and is reputed to have been chief of the so-called Cabal of Naples,"
I love the sketch , often sketches are so much more lively than the final paintings . The breast in the painting is odd as i appears to be alone and slightly high . The child isn’t suckling which is weird as I would have thought that was the point of the pose . otherwise I can see why you are fascinated by the portrait.
I do think the portrait may be making fun of what you call her "perceived lack of femininity". It isn't just her beard on display, she's additionally been made grotesquely masculine in a number of ways, which you did make note of. I think the contrast to the husband, in conjunction with this, is not to denote merely a strong personality or a respected position, but an inversion of propriety and of what is expected and thought natural and ideal. It is that inversion which is meant to be humorous- look at this woman, she is manlier than her husband. She's the one who wears the trousers. We see jokes of this kind made even today.
Swampty >>> At least you're not so stupid as so many commentors here! >>>> This is POLITICAL SATIRE not real portrait, but a portrayal ==> For such an atomically correct painter, why is the bulging breast incorrectly placed? Its too high & center of the chest. Something isn't making sense here & could it be a Political Satire? Not looking a lot more into this painting, though the use of Odd Folks whose heads are those of political or public persons used to portray political messages. Was this 'wife' portrayed as the real Man of the house to impart an inversion of power? 'She' has no other feminine features aside from the incorrectly placed bulbous breast feeding a child that is improbably born at 'her' age. deRibera is said a miscreant & unwelcome on the Naples art scene, having arrived fleeing from Creditors in Rome, already acting like a jew & head of a cabal whose acts against other artists alienated him. POLITICAL SATIRE seems more apropos, as Spanish overrule was not favored at all. The breast is clearly FAKERY.
Note en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jusepe_de_Ribera:
"He has been characterized as selfishly protecting his prosperity, and is reputed to have been chief of the so-called Cabal of Naples,"
First of all, no, this is a painting of a man. The receeding hairline makes that clear. The French woman that "owned" her beard looked like a woman underneath the beard.
Also, what's the deal with her breast being right, smack-dab, in the middle of her chest? This isn't the full/real story.
You sir, have got it RIGHT. 👏🙌
I think it’s a rude caricature exaggerating her manliness. I definitely think it meant for her to be the but of the joke.
btw: 'What? Me Worry?' 😁😁
that artist never saw a naked woman...
This beautiful painting is an allegoric masterpiece born of celestial gen-i-us..
ITS A SPANARID in Italy when Spain's overrule was NOT WELCOME, neither was the Spaniard (& probably jew) welcome in Italy. >>>>>>> This is POLITICAL SATIRE not real portrait, but a portrayal ==> For such an atomically correct painter, why is the bulging breast incorrectly placed? Its too high & center of the chest. Something isn't making sense here & could it be a Political Satire? Not looking a lot more into this painting, though the use of Odd Folks whose heads are those of political or public persons used to portray political messages. Was this 'wife' portrayed as the real Man of the house to impart an inversion of power? 'She' has no other feminine features aside from the incorrectly placed bulbous breast feeding a child that is improbably born at 'her' age. deRibera is said a miscreant & unwelcome on the Naples art scene, having arrived fleeing from Creditors in Rome, already acting like a jew & head of a cabal whose acts against other artists alienated him. POLITICAL SATIRE seems more apropos, as Spanish overrule was not favored at all. The breast is clearly FAKERY.
Note en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jusepe_de_Ribera:
"He has been characterized as selfishly protecting his prosperity, and is reputed to have been chief of the so-called Cabal of Naples,"
An honest portrait, direct and respectful.
I see a lot about Pocs in the column, it does in fact cause hair growth but it does not place a breast high in the middle of a chest, cause conception at 52 or cause a woman to have men's hands. Something else has to be going on here.
Magdalena has dignity in my eyes, I agree this was painted with respect for her.
Patricia Page >>>> THIS IS NOT A PORTRAIT, nor is this interpretation serious, but is an LGBTQ agenda pushing narrative >>>> If you are into Arts (& Crafts) then please do not fall for such absurd superficiality. Can ya not see, as an Artist, that the breast is planted on a man. This interpretation is to push LGBTQ agenda narrative >>>> This is POLITICAL SATIRE not real portrait, but a portrayal ==> For such an atomically correct painter, why is the bulging breast incorrectly placed? Its too high & center of the chest. Something isn't making sense here & could it be a Political Satire? Not looking a lot more into this painting, though the use of Odd Folks whose heads are those of political or public persons used to portray political messages. Was this 'wife' portrayed as the real Man of the house to impart an inversion of power? 'She' has no other feminine features aside from the incorrectly placed bulbous breast feeding a child that is improbably born at 'her' age. deRibera is said a miscreant & unwelcome on the Naples art scene, having arrived fleeing from Creditors in Rome, already acting like a jew & head of a cabal whose acts against other artists alienated him. POLITICAL SATIRE seems more apropos, as Spanish overrule was not favored at all. The breast is clearly FAKERY.
Note en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jusepe_de_Ribera:
"He has been characterized as selfishly protecting his prosperity, and is reputed to have been chief of the so-called Cabal of Naples,"
It gives mevthe impression that the portrait and message conveyed is accepting of the facts (i,e, This is the way it is)
That women had beard outside Portugal. Can't attack us with that anymore
your vids are great and unique. patience that your channel will escalate soon.
I don’t see any exploitation. It’s real life. This is what we’d see if it was a photograph. The only thing that bothers me is the placement of her breast. Maybe she only had one? This artist is a master.
I have to disagree. It feels like she was drawn exactly because she doesn't look like most women.
I think the odd breast might have been because she wasn't actually posing like this for the portrait, or at least not the whole time and he might have just been painting from memory, which is often the case as portraits like these take weeks. Or he might have intentionally put it more prominently in the center to draw attention to it.
myozbubble >>>> THIS IS JOKE both the painting & the LGBTQ agenda narrative are JOKES, whether the interpreter believes his lack of simply research or not, it is a JOKE. >>> This is POLITICAL SATIRE not real portrait, but a portrayal ==> For such an atomically correct painter, why is the bulging breast incorrectly placed? Its too high & center of the chest. Something isn't making sense here & could it be a Political Satire? Not looking a lot more into this painting, though the use of Odd Folks whose heads are those of political or public persons used to portray political messages. Was this 'wife' portrayed as the real Man of the house to impart an inversion of power? 'She' has no other feminine features aside from the incorrectly placed bulbous breast feeding a child that is improbably born at 'her' age. deRibera is said a miscreant & unwelcome on the Naples art scene, having arrived fleeing from Creditors in Rome, already acting like a jew & head of a cabal whose acts against other artists alienated him. POLITICAL SATIRE seems more apropos, as Spanish overrule was not favored at all. The breast is clearly FAKERY.
Note en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jusepe_de_Ribera:
"He has been characterized as selfishly protecting his prosperity, and is reputed to have been chief of the so-called Cabal of Naples,"
Interesting that there is no discussion concerning her(?)full breast and it’s mid placement in the painting. It appears that this “woman” has only one breast center and engorged with milk-yet
patients with the medical condition of PCO more often than not have problems in producing enough milk for their infants.
As well most PCO patients have hirsuitism rather than a full thick beard as in this photo which would have taken months to grow and would have been growing during pregnancy of this infant. PCO patients have a lot of difficulty becoming pregnant and are often infertile. A pregnant lasts 9-10 months. This woman has a very thick full beard-yet she was fertile during suffering with severe PCO. Lastly the structural features of make like hands, facial features and other bone structures are not typical of PCO. There are genetic conditions that would account for excessive hair on a persons face make or female.
On another note with the “balding man with a beard and mustache and along with male features and an engorged midline breast of a baby who looks 4-6 months perhaps there is more symbolism of the males generation and descends in this family? Notice that mothers generally hof the baby o their left side albeitthid ?man/woman only has one central breast which actually is not engorged in the typical manner of a female breast engorged with milk. The shadowing of the ‘root’ of the breast she’s it look like a balloon rather than a breast. Lastly take not of the posture and stance of the right hand holding the baby. The hand is almost in a pious position-perhaps a blessing of the Patriarchic???
I agree, only from a medical perspective - not a "gender" one. I look at this and see someone with a "disability" portrayed with honor and respect. Very rare outside of the 20th and 21th centuries.
Puts me in mind of Diane Arbus.
why ignore the accent on the name alcala, pronounced al-ca-LAH, accent on the last syllable!
This is fascinating stuff.
Wow! Thank you
The artist painted her as an older man. I don't think he painted her from life.
My personal problem is not the beard, is the face; it is a man’s face, not a woman’s face, a vigurous masculin face!
The true tolkien dwarfs.
I miss the narrator’s addressing of the breast: its position is very unnatural, too high and too far to the center of the chest to seem real. Magdalena’s face is manly, with the receeding hairline, the masculine eyes, nose and cheeks. This doesn’t look as a bearded woman as much as a man with a fake breast, which makes the painting so much more intriguing…
Before I even watched the video I thought
"oh his wife left him with the kids and for 2 20's"
No one is going to comment on how she gave birth in her 50s. Rare.
I like the PCOS theory, but I think (if it IS, indeed, a positive portrayal) it might be a representation of her - & of other women like her - being the true “patriarch” of the family. The backbone of it. The one keeping everything together. That’s possibly why the breast is placed in such an odd spot; it’s neither a realistic depiction of a literal woman with a beard, nor an anatomical accident - rather, it’s an intentional placement of some sort, possibly to show she’s just as much a nurturing mother as a strong & powerful figure. The breast feels like it’s sprouting from her heart, after all.
That said, I do unfortunately agree w/ others that it’s just as possible this is a pot shot at her husband. I would rather it not be (since it feels very deliberate & meaningful in a way the humorous painting you showed doesn’t), but I can’t deny the husband looks almost shameful beside her. Perhaps there’s a middle ground, where it’s meant as both a scathing indictment of him for being a lousy provider, & a powerful statement of respect towards her for picking up his slack (while maintaining her “job” of being a loving mother), but I don’t know if we’ll ever have an answer regardless.
However, I have to ask - are we *absolutely* sure this isn’t a trans masculine mother? I know it’s highly unlikely, but… it’d be rather sweet if it was.
Its just a smiling friends reference 😉
Good video, but his name was "José Ribera", as he was from Valencia, not Giuseppe.
“Being french she owned a café”
It's very odd. I feel like there's more to the painting. Even without the beard, the face is very masculine. The french lady had a beard, but she was obviously a woman. And the breast is on the center. Was he trying to depict Magdalena as the "man" of the relationship? As in she was the one who provided (implied by the center breast and the breast milk) and the one who was more harsh (by her facial features)
This video was a great introduction to your channel. I’m for sure subscribing.