Not just that, but a full-featured RPG is a crossover of a ton of different little mechanics. It's the final boss for aspiring game devs. In the gamedev circle I come from, it's recommended that you take each piece of your dream RPG and make a small game around one piece at a time. Only once you've mastered all the elements are you recommended to put them together and make your dream RPG. Cutscenes are totally right though, it's a bunch of work for something that gets used a single time. Although, it also cuts down on bugtesting, since the cutscene isn't going to have much variance in the contexts it'll play.
I was very surprised to hear him say that cutscenes were the hard part. Not the data storage, not the item typing, not the character sheet, not any of the rpg mechanics, but the story? It's like saying the hardest thing you'll ever make is a visual novel, because you'll only ever experience one path once and everything else is thrown away if the player chooses a different path. Same could be said for puzzle games. Every level of a puzzle game is specifically made. If you want to add more levels you have to spend time developing those levels instead of just slapping terrain and enemies together.
@ferinzz I'd have to agree with those takes. I've tried a couple of genres of games, but visual novels and puzzle games are my weakness, because implementations don't get very far at aaaaaall. It's a constant struggle to squeeze creativity out of the ol' noggin! You only have to make the item storage system once, and it is, itself, a puzzle. I love solving a puzzle. But making puzzles myself? That's just homework!!!
For me my assumption was going to be the combat. making sure everything is balanced enough so that it's all doable, with plenty of different builds, but never truly impossible and never too eas y(unless you grind like no hell) just the thought of trying to balance something like an rpg makes me want to curl up and hide
@@fairystail1 and after all your effort some guy figures out a combo you never considered that trivialises everything so you gotta go rebalance it all again! i dont envy those poor dev teams
Uh I didn't have any idea what to do so I just started my game dev journey WITH an rpg game.... (I have been working on the rpg game for about an year now with only 2 minutes of content) Yeah no the save mechanics were the hardest part
@@HenSt-gz7qj oof. btw I'm trying to make a game that has at least 20 endings, but all the paths are cross-linked so there's a few thousand different ways to reach each general ending. since the game state is also affected by the specific path taken its practically impossible to get all the endings.
@@0071slipknot this reminded me of the other day when I was watching a vod of Smallant's first playthrough of Shadow of the Erdtree, and I was a bit let down when he skipped over text and didn't pay attention to the story, only focusing on getting to bosses, not even fighting any regular enemies. Like he'd ask if an enemy was a boss, and when it wasn't, then he'd just skip it and move on to the next thing. I know the boss fights are the main thing that draws people to Fromsoft games, but to me their lore, worldbuilding, and characters are the highlights of their games. I guess the gameplay of Fromsoft games is more exciting action than, say, a turn-based RPG, but the games are still very character and lore driven. Therefore, when people don't pay attention to all the work the devs put into the lore and story aspects, it's kinda disappointing. It's like if you only watched the combat scenes in the Lord of the Rings trilogy and skipped every story development.
I agree! A lot of memorable moments in RPGs only repeat once just to be remembered. Other genres tend to overuse and have ideas and characters overstay their welcome
Well, more like 20 hours of content, of which 10 hours is required to reach the end of the game and the other 10 hours is optional (which is the case for most good RPG's, rarely does an RPG that requires 100% consumption of content equal good). Where the other is making 4 hour of content, but have previously played content that can be replayed simultaneously.
League of legends where they've been reusing more or less the same core map every season with minimal tweaks for years with users playing well over 20,000 half hour matches...
The storyline director for Alpha Protocol had this happen, they had to arrange over 30 hours of cutscenes with alternating dialogue, branches, decisions, consequences that player would only see maybe 12 minutes of. Also the game was just mid and had very little replay value.
Bethesda using computer generated landscapes, reversed dungeons, 8 voice actors for 400 characters, 6 death animations, and the same 3 puzzels for 32 dungeons. 👀
Viarmo, Belethor, and Nick Valentine still haunt me to this day, I can't pay attention when they all sound the same (and that's not even getting into unnamed characters yet...)
Starfeild's greatest fault is they built way too much game, a focused approach would be better than everything and the kitchen sink. Any new writing, 3D model, system or voice line, reused or not, is unique content. Bethesda also has a relatively small team for the scale they work at.
Making an RPG is more like writing a novel than making most genres of game. And if you're trying to make an open world RPG with lots of arrive content and freedom of choice, it's more like writing an entire franchise worth of shared universe TV shows for a single project.
You hit the Nail on the head with my current personal projects problem and what makes it even worse is that I'm not just writing a game but I've got at least 1-2 movie series and 2 book series in mind due to the story having multiple Protagonists (6 total active protagonists which are each interwoven characters with their own goals and motivations each brought together by 1 thing their Shared trauma at the hands of the order of the rose) (In an earlier draft of the full story the main games protagonist, Iris Blackrose was going to be a serial killer but my best friend convinced me to cut that trait out and To be Entirely honest I've been Stuck in Rewriting Hell for almost a year because that singular change Domino's so much that it risks Completely Changing the Story (and I can't just hand wave it away because even to me it screams plot hole) so I've had to add a new Character to be the serial killer that pushes Crimson (one of the two the planned movie protagonists the other focusing on Akane the Red) to directly meet Iris using his eye powers to see she's connected to the case, whilst Lucius (Books protagonists a pure Private Investigator) gets involved with Akane (an Escaped Test Subject and part of the 2nd generation of experiments that iris, Crimson, Lucius and ash were made for but ended in catastrophic failure so they wipped their memories and them under the captivity of 4 people within the same neighbourhood and drugged those 4 to give them 1 goal Make sure they Never Exit The properties Bounds but don't kill them(it took almost 15 years from this initial imprisonment and that influence poisoned the will of the 4 captors transforming them into horrific abusers (iris's backstory has overt Hints to Child(because she's been here in this house her Entire life as far back as she remembers) $exual abuse as a subject matter based on the dialogue of the "farther" and the player is actually in control of this backstory In a telltale style so must make reactive choices (she points out that she hid a screwdriver underneath the stairs to the basement so plans to kick her "Farther" full force and then run grab the screwdriver and if the back doors locked Pry It open with the Screwdriver as her "farther friends" are waiting for her towards the front door in the living room (soon to be dead room if you miss the Screwdriver (because that unlocks the option to Grab the knife 🔪), And in the present which is 10 years after iris's escape she is still dealing with Frequent Flashbacks along with anxiety and C-PTSD (which in the current rewrite she handles through having 1 close friend but is frequently liable to breakdown, and I plan to reintegrate the original serial Killer Plotline via a specific chain of events in the backstory that lead to iris not having a full support network
it's beyond just the cutscenes, though; in an FPS you build the gun, the bullets, the enemies, and their interaction. In an RPG you build a quest and that quest is never used again - at best its framework will be. RPGs in general are just more consistent development needs than something like an FPS or platformer.
@@c.f.bellairs1055 This is why I am 100% OK with game frameworks that rely on text narrative to present the quest. It's a lot easier/cheaper/faster to hire a good scriptwriter/new novelist (and some staff/ghost writer assistants) to pump out a lot of fairly unique individual quests/events. Next step up as allowed by budget, hire a couple of artists to do sketches/illustrations to accompany the text. Just some images to highlight key NPCs or key moments in the narrative action, to convey the game world's vibe or emotions of the moment. Same for voice acting and voiced narration. It seems like more people respond positively to voice-acting (well, good voice acting) Though I think illustrations can get more bang for the buck, budget-wise. Consistently good voice acting seems pretty expensive. I'm not a super imaginative guy, but this format in some games has been enough to keep me engaged and fondly remembering some stories long after I finish the game. Fully rendered, voice, animated in-engine cutscenes just seem to take so much more in resources and time, thus budget. I remember I was constantly in awe at how many one-time use in-game voice lines and cut scenes were made for GTA V. The GTA Online missions got repetive recycled framework, assets and animations like crazy, but even they had a ton of unique character model rigging, mocap, etc done when considered in aggregate. Lots of Shark card revenue and lots of players over a decade. :P
@@c.f.bellairs1055 in an fps you build a level and then never use it again, what even is this argument? And the level that is build for the fps game is usually a million times more complicated because of highly complex combat systems and enemy ai (think of doom for example) than a quest in an rpg where you just have to go to some place you already been to 10 times and then the characters uses recycled animations to talk to you. How replayable and open something is is HIGHLY dependant on the type of game and it could be either an fps or an rpg. Besides, a lot of fps games have many rpg features nowadays. The lines are blurry.
@@Crowbar You're correct. I don't disagree. lmao Also, plenty of FPS games nowadays reuse assets and levels *gladly*. And we're also talking about what we find more personally impressive which is entirely opinion - I'm more impressed by RPG worlds and storylines, you're more impressed by complex FPS maps and levels. Both are valid. I am however sticking to my original claim. It's significantly more challenging to create a convincing RPG world with a myriad of quests and grinds than it is to create an FPS with a myriad of setpieces in which you shoot enemies.
@@Crowbar The combat system isnt recreated for each level/map, you need to build one time and create a self "dependancy" of the level-gameplay making both compatible. Then, with all respect, they can simply mesh stuff intuitively with how you know things behave, and do gameplay test on it if it breaks. Rpgs on the other hand, can get more manual. Positioning objectives and how(IF) they interact with your character/party/choice/wather. Creating an engaging main story decent side quests, with a fun combat system so it doesnt become a burden too fast. A lot of rpg games resort to some tricks to artificially increase its game lenght and reuse assets, being it fetch quest, backtracking, high encounter rates, grind systems... it is hard to manage all that, avoid all of these without creating a "corridor visual novel" where combat is almost a check list. In FPS and other genres if you nail your gameplay you have over 60% done, I have games I wish had more levels just to get different situations to experience that gameplay and keep pushing it.
I dont know man i can build an RPG in my machine shop garage in a few hours. Honestly the longest part would be the rocket itself but you can buy off the shelf parts for that from your local hobby store
True, though what should be kept in mind is that FNV had almost all of its technical work completed already, what with it using the FO3 framework. That saved a HUGE amount of time, that the team could use to tell stories instead of building a program around them.
I mean my friend got it on release and to hear him tell it NV was worse then 76 on release. The bugs would just demolish your game 10 minutes in. It wasn't until they went through several patches that the amazing content in the game was even playable because it was nigh impossible to not have the whole thing spontaneously combust.
@Frustratedartist2 you have to remember that there are still creators working inside that company making art. The company can command them to change certain aspects or add microtransactions, but whats actually making the art is and always will be the human beings you never see behind the dev team. It's not fair to undermine those people's achievements, even if the company itself is shit, especially when they aren't the ones "ruining games" as much as the company and its shareholders are
@@m8rs558He gave a bad example of what he's trying to say. It's not so much about cutscenes specifically, but rather about the scope of the experience. RPGs have to account for player choice, so they have a ton of tiny details in them that may only be relevant one time or a handful of times, or may not even be seen at all if the player never finds or interacts with them. Most other genres, though, such as FPSs, are much more guided experiences and so have a smaller pool of things that need to be created. And because the devs can guarantee so much of what you'll be doing, they can reuse individual details over and over again as needed.
same with R6, only like 12 maps and 30 characters and yet all the data is stored as high-res texture packs for EVERY WEAPON and CHARACTER. 4K fully fledged, or 8K high res possibility that comes at the cost of a whopping 80GB lmfao
@@shyguy85 And then you realize the hardware take 4 frame to read your input, 2 for the game engine to render the picture, 1 for VSynch, 1 for the game code, and 5 because they use a outdated online system. Meanwhile a non esport game on PC is about 36ms (or 2 frame) and a esport one is under 1ms. + 30ms of ping for online
I remember a long time ago someone told me "when you start seeing the RPGs on consoles, that's when you know you are reaching the end of the consoles life. Shooters are the easiest things to make they are simple point and click, that's why they are always the 1st games to come out and always flood the market. RPGs on the other hand take so long that by the time devs figure out how to optimize the hardware enough it's time for the next gen"
6 місяців тому
Yup, it was the end of Switch right after the announcement of Breath of the Wild. /s
Starfield's new game plus is a huge letdown imo. You go to a different universe, and... EVERYTHING IS THE SAME!!! YAY!!! There's only so many "unique" universes, but they're all gimmicks that don't mean anything to your play style or roleplay. Sarah Morgan is a plant! Yay? The Constellation members are all clones of me!! I should be able to use them as companions, right? Oh what's that? No? Oh well then what's the point?
This is so true. Back in the day when RPG Maker was all the rage, and they introduced the possibility to hand paint a map instead of using a tile set. I remember arguing with people how even using the tile-set mapping takes so much time then roughly estimated it would take weeks to just create a basic dungeon from FF6. But history proved me right, I can count the number of released RPG-Maker games that were actually any good on one hand (And one of those, One Shot, used a modified open-source version of the engine).
Amen to that. Never take a good RPG for granted, even if it's a shorter experience from 3 to 8 hours long. Because the reason what they have is good is because each memorable sequence likely has as much condensed effort poured in it as you would put in an entire stage in some other genres.
in the grand scheme of things those would probably be considered cutscenes - they are one shot "consumable" story elements - the assets and way to trigger them will be reused but the stuff being said will all be unique and cannot be re-used
@@JoelLikesPigs It takes far less work to just do dialogue than to do dialogue, voice acting, animation, camera work, music, sound effects, cinematic direction, etc.
Let's not undersell the difficulty of making FPS cutscenes either. I can only imagine how hard it was for the devs to give us the timeless cutscene that allowed us to press F to pay respects.
@@Pokemaster-wg9gxThat would be -CoD: Ghosts- Advanced Warfare. Now as for Metal Gear and what I think the commenter below yours confusing this with Gears of War. They are both mostly third person shooters like Fortnite (Which in addition to being third person shooter is also a battle Royale) Semantics are fun aren't they? :3
I think what he means for FPS the basic format is the same and you reuse alot of assets and animations. I mean unless you're making a stealth shooter there isn't much variation in the animation.
He isn’t saying that cutscenes are harder in RPG games than FPS games. The main draw of RPGs are the cutscenes and story, the gameplay is secondary to a lot of them. In an FPS game the gameplay is the primary draw, with the story being secondary. You can have an FPS game without any real story, cutscenes, or even scenarios. You can’t have an RPG without a story, scenario, or cutscenes in one way or another.
I’ve been seeing these shorts for about a week now.. I’m not a dev but you really make me think about trying to pick it up and give it a go.. you sir. Deserve all the subs.
It goes beyond just throwing it away. Because you knowingly put your passion into something you know for a fact that some people are going to skip and ignore. An RPG is a labor of love to an audience that will never find everything you make.
That's why Final Fantasy XIV is so wild. they actually allow you to relive the entire story and the game is actually designed around you building new jobs to go back and help out less experienced players. with one option checked you can actually watch all the cutscenes again with the new players and experience the story over and over again. The reusing of the story is built into veteran players helping out new players in a mmo. It's brilliant
The way SE keeps their content relevant and enjoyable more than once is extremely clever. The entire ecosystem of that game is pretty underrated, imo, and handles things rather elegantly.
RPG’s (mainly JRPGs) are some of my favorite games. It’s insane how much effort it takes to make one, and that effort shows. I’ve put over 100 hours into both Persona 5 Royal, and Octopath Traveler 2, and those games blew me away with details. Both games are amazing, and I can only imagine how long they took to make.
What Thor doesn't acknowledge here is how easy it is to build cutscenes in an RPG compared to other games. The majority of the story content of the RPG, particularly the style he's building, is writing text. Speaking as a specialist in building platforming mechanics, building the mechanics of a platformer require a crazy amount of nuance and detail if you want it to play well. I don't think Thor's being 100% realistic here. Even using his example of bullets, no, good games that don't have simple copy-paste content have unique bullet types with unique programming, and then have additional mechanics that appear slowly as you progress that interconnect with other mechanics. The time cost of writing 5 minutes of slowly read text in the RPG compared with the time cost of building 5 minutes of high quality FPS gameplay is not the same... it's waay quicker to write the RPG text.
Doesn't sound like that's so much an RPG issue, as it is a "game with a plot" issue. If I put a cutscene in an FPS, it's also going to get thrown away in the same way.
Yeah I don't get it, he may be right but the points weren't great. I've known of platformers, and honestly probably more than rpgs, that are in development hell for so long, over 3 years. I know of platformers that will take longer than deltarune to come out (assuming we follow deltarune development). It's all about the amount of detail and effort and RPGs that lack it are usually seen as very lame because of reused assets so the standard is higher, I feel, and that they just tend to be longer. Doesn't really have to do with the one time experience or reusability, imo, that's something rpgs can go for too if they want to, which makes me feel I'm missing conext about the kins of rpgs he's talking about.
The point isn't that those game genres don't have cutscenes or anything it's that they do not require it to be released as a game of that genre. Story is integral to RPGs because that is part and parcel what the genre was birthed from. RPGs are always trying to emulate a tabletop experience similar to Dungeons and Dragons or Pathfinder. A key part to those games is a Dungeon Master or Game Master leading the plot for the players meaning there is somebody who is creating the environment and reasons for your character to go through. Even in the most story devoid campaigns there is still going to be a description of the scenery and a reason for the player to be going through the game whereas something like a platformer can just drop you in a world and say go right/left and start jumping. Would it be fun and engaging? Maybe. Would it be a platformer? Yes.
in concept yes. but cutscenes/story and actual gameplay are totally different things. the meat of an RPG's gameplay is pretty much just the scenes you build. other genres can rely a lot more on their core gameplay concepts so that everything is reusable and recyclable... can't really do the same with RPGs where the moment to moment gameplay heavily requires you build totally unique scenes. even a battle system isn't enough to subside that
It is notable that you can avoid these issues by being economic with your time. In-game cutscenes are hard, but if you make a Visual Novel style framework they become easy even if they look less impressive. Prerender cutscenes from an animation program, etc. if youre worried about any individual features there may be crafty wats to achieve the same goal
"economic with your time" also known as "cutting corners" :'> at least if it is about lowering cut scene quality to save time, if you originally wanted a certain style and are now compromising for time. But even then, the games he brought up aren't exactly cinematic masterpieces, Undertale "cutscenes" are either slideshows of still images or sprites moving across the screen, it does not get more "economical". It still takes many years to make a game like that, due to the sheer amount of writing, branching paths and dialog options, insane amounts of npc-s and content variety. Versus if it was some sort of roguelike dungeon crawler with the same assets and style, where rooms were random generated, with very little dialog or story, and it is all about the bullet hell mini game. It could have been a 1 month pet project. Of course, it would probably not see the success it did, but it would have been quick to make.
@@aki-senkinn I think from this it's pretty clear you don't have much experience programming and that's fine, I just feel like this response comes from a place of not having the requisite experience. Every single game released has made dozens if not hundreds of compromises, doesn't matter if it has 1 or 1000 developers, compromising and "cutting corners" is not inherently a bad thing. Its most important to be able to recognize where you can cut corners and what is scope-creep. Look at a cutscene in undertale and compare it to a visual novel. A visual novel is just a few systems, you have some basic input, a dialogue system (which can be quite complex), and some sort of basic animation system that can apply animations to a sprite (plus swap them out). Now compare that to undertale where you entirely rewrite character controllers, build a basic custom scripting system to script movements and animations, animate every single action scene, time dialogue and have actions progress based on that, and so on. If you want to make an RPG, the visual novel style might be more practical. it's less work, easily scales with the available art budget, and avoids a lot of complex programming problems you may run into but obviously it's just a different way of accomplishing a similar goal. It's important as a developer to be able to recognize how key this feature is to your game, the specific impacts of it, and determine if it fits into the scope of your project. People incapable of doing this are often incapable of releasing games, code complexity is exponential and scope creep is terminal.
@@christophernoneya4635 I am a programmer, and while it's not my career anymore I have some smaller released hobby projects with small to moderate success. I understand the importance of compromises to be able to actually release something in less than a human lifetime. In my experience, while scope creep is a frequent issue, sanding a project down until barely anything is left is just as bad; either out of impatience, loss of drive, deadlines, lack of resources, or plain laziness just giving up on once cool features. I used to work in an environment with strict deadlines and having to cut the project to size, and back then I used to agree to your sentiments; but then it was also where i always got burnt out from every project very fast and i was mentally checked out by the end every time; and I just couldn't take any pride in anything ever that got released. I personally just think by now, if I cannot do a project properly and to it's fullest, then I will do a smaller project, that was always designed to be smaller in scope; instead of just cutting a bigger idea down until it is a bundle of wasted potential. Cutting small corners is one thing; lots of small things can add up to save tons of time; but if I'm at the point of changing genres then it's not that, at that point it's an entirely different game. In case of Undertale, turning it into a visual novel would completely miss the core idea of it being a subversion on classical RPG combat, and giving the option to befriend monsters; it would not be the same game, and probably not worth the time to make it at all.
Hire better writers then instead of the industry standard of dogshit writers straight out of college with their fresh creative writing degree that taught them nothing.
@@cattysplatspeed runners at least have seen the content often several times. Story skippers are really weird though why buy a story driven game just to not interact with the story and if the individual has brain damage on top might even say the game has no story.
I agree with him, but the reasonings he gave was very, very odd. Like FPS games can have cutscenes too and they would function the exact same as they would in an RPG. Nothing about the framework in an RPG makes cutscenes operate in an exclusive way compared to other games
@@andrewgreeb916 I do understand to a degree where he was going since he mentioned how a lot of things had to be thrown away immediately. He just used cutscenes as an example. My point was how that’s a really bad example. It doesn’t properly illustrate the difference between an RPG and an FPS. Now additionally, I also think the main point he was trying to make is similarly a poor point. For example he says an FPS needs a framework to shoot things, and that never needs to change. Yet he says the framework for an RPG would always need to change, but I just think that’s blatantly false. Try playing FF14 and the framework stays the same for the entire game. The only thing that truly changes is the margin for error you have within that framework, but that works for damn near 1000 hours because it’s a really well laid framework
@@gypsyofthebardthat’s an on rails campaign, not an open world RPG or even on rails RPG, you can’t take stuff back with you or have any different choices
As someone who's getting into development and chose my first game as an RPG, it's most tempting to release it as an Early Access game. I damn well know it'll take 10 years to get done, and most companies do not hire off of unshipped games
He’s mostly stating things confidently. A lot of the shorts I’ve seen he makes absolute statements about some subject without much or any nuance. RPGs can definitely reuse content and ideas. You just have to be smart about how you do it. Statements like ”All of it is a one shot consumable. All of it” sound smart but it’s not true
I think he means that conversations/dialog or events can't be repeated (or at least shouldn't be, with the exception of anything time related). Arcade games as an example are mostly variations of the same idea with increasing complexity or novelty, anything with narrative woven into it will likely be lengthier to make.
But to your point, it's not absolute but a general majority. Your FPS could have every enemy be unique, but that's overkill and content reuse is acceptable in that genre. Repeating a quest? Less acceptable, it's done sometimes but when it is, it's typically critized.
I never consider those stories and cutscenes to be throwaways. Those stories, especially the good ones, they stick with me. Story is the best part of gaming that has been sidelined by big publishers. You are doing beautiful work by telling stories.
The cutscenes point is rock solid, but you are also effectively making a world, even if you make a point of keeping conversations down to a paragraph for your first rpg meant for practice, you still are generally wanting to put sooo many details to make the world feel alive.
@@trash-heap3989yep! In a shooter game you can just say it takes place during the Cold War and then boom. Decades of interesting stuff to use! But an RPG? Man, even a boring “typical” high fantasy RPG still needs all this new information to make its game world unique
Yeah its basicly like creating story, world, and so on, but other type of games tend to be creating just addictive gameplay that basicly repeats itself, and has high replay. Playing through rpg is like watching movie or reading book you are less likely to pickup those medias immediately again, but you have to create them in way the media is encaging that whole time during that experience. Basicly like his example of cutscenes in rpg everything is one time consumable even though takes longer to create like cutscenes you watch usually that one time then just dont care about seen that scene anymore
There's also the part where it was announced Prior to the entire world having to change in order to deal and handle Basically everything that has been happening since then That's also caused a huge shift in things and altered time frames
@@NoName...... To be fair, it might be for the better they're trying not to build too much hype, especially when they're trying to basically make something better than hollow knight, as No Man's Sky can attest took them Years to finally deliver on the hype and promises made
I mean Hollow knight took three years to develop even more if you consider the fact that concept started further bacm. So it's pretty much in line with it's development time so far.
This is incredibly valuable information. Here I was under the impression that an RPG would be easier than trying to learn how to code something more visually or physically complex.
Cutscenes are cool and all, but my favorite rpgs are still like golden sun and the gameboy advance final fantasies, most of those didn't have a cutscene that brought you into a entirely different scene, it just used the same sprites on the same field but with scripted more emotive animations, I'd assume golden sun style dialog/cutscenes are so much easier to do and i fkn loved them
I hear you, and was immediately reminded of Final Fantasy 7, how they had the arcade at the end that you could go to so you could replay all the minigames. THAT is a way to reuse content in an RPG. Edit : 3 words at the end.
I would venture to say that RPG's are not the most difficult thing to make, for example a fps needs all kinds of systems in place for things like hit registration, and require a 3d environment, even if it's like Doom, and platformers need physics systems. RPGs don't require any of that, just a text system, sprites and button mapping at minimum, the real programming challenge of RPGs is just how MUCH you have to make
So you're saying that Witcher 3, rdr2, bg3, and Many more open world rpg games don't need hit reg( when they slash their sword or shoot guns or arrow), 3d environment (are you saying these open world games are 2d?), and physics where u literally ride horses and get dragged when you fall due to inertia?
@@bhandos9062 You missed the point completely and ended up just strawmmaning the OP entirely. Picking RPG's that have components the OP said aren't nessecary doesn't make them nessecary for RPG's. Its nessecary for those games in particular but not for RPG's as a whole. You can make an rpg in 2d, with turn based combat using no physics at all. (Early JRPG's do this or even stuff like Fallout 1/2 do most of these). So no these are not nessecary components to make an RPG they are optional and their inclusion depends on the game.
So, as someone who regularly plays around with old-school style text-based/turn-based RPGs and modding things: You are either not knowing enough about the subject, or not being honest in your assessments. RPGs aren't 'just a text system, sprites, and button mapping'. To make that claim overlooks basically any and all interaction mechanics and the balancing thereof. Which takes a LOT of time to do, and a lot of pre-planning to have a hope of not having to go back to the drawing board on something every few weeks. You also vastly overrate how hard it is to set up a 3D environment while actively pretending sprites aren't far more dfficult/time-consuming to work with. A 3d model can, once made, be animated to do just about anything. You can get away with using a single person model for DOZENS of unique entities by slapping different heads or prefab clothes on it while re-using extant animations. Sprites on the other hand, require not only an extra level of artistic coherency, but also CAN'T really be reused in the same way 3d models can, especially in animation. You are limited to palette-swapping for that, at best. A cutscene in a 3d game might be made with pre-existing models, simply animated and framed in different ways by the camera. A cutscene for a sprite-based game that doesn't involve characters 'wiggling' at each other, involves redrawing the entire sprite from the idle pose through every frame of animation, for EACH AND EVERY new movement you want them to do. The higher you go in resolution, the more WORK involved in that, assuming you aren't 'faking' the sprites by using 3D models and some filters to create the sprites. There is, to my knowledge, no IK or procgen for sprites, with even motion tweening requiring a lot more work to make it look okay than what modern 3D requires.
I think you're all underestimating each others genre and a lot of cherry picking. Like wtf rpg game are you playing in 2024 that it's all text based and it's sprite???? Rpg maker games??? Or games dedicated to bring back old school rpgs like say octopath traveler? And even then there's a lot of effort still involve in that.
The only other genre that's as hard is fighting games, for the complete opposite reason. You have very few assets, comparatively, but each asset and its myriad possible interactions has to be utterly immaculate because that's the entire experience, and it needs to stand up to the highest possible scrutiny under fire.
This relies on the assumption that every RPG requires cutscenes. Every traditional RL completely defecates on the idea that nothing is reusable. Sure, if FNAF Security Breach is an RPG and Daggerfall isn't, then this works. My man, you've been in games long enough to know that RPG is the worst "genre" to generalise because three's pretty much no other term that means more different things depending on who you ask.
I believe he is talking about just a completely different mindset of what kind of game you are making. Most RPGs are designed story first and gameplay second, with most stories being completely linear experiences with no replay value, so you have to be happy that cutscenes will features lots of hard work that will never be used in gameplay. Indie genres like roguelikes function more like arcade games, where almost everything will be seen and used more than once intentionally, often using it as much as possible to avoid having to add more assets and work to the project.
@@cattysplat Nah, this is untrue. Designing a game story first, gameplay second just doesn't work. In practice, you're constantly making concessions to the systems for the game to not just be fun, but even **playable**. Most RPGs are designed *with narrative systems* in mind, this is true, but the story itself, aside from maybe a high-concept outline, is usually a pretty late addition. Heck, even the high-concept outline often gets chucked in the trash. Being a videogame writer is a super tough job because of this -- they're usually brought in too late, with too few tools, and expected to work miracles in the first draft. There's a game called "The Writer Will Do Something" that is very famous within gamedev circles that I recommend playing. Every games writer I know swears by it.
Adventure games (or action-adventures) tend to have a lot of cutscenes, too. And FPS tend to be a lot like action-adventures these days Cutscenes aren't usually the primary gameplay loop of RPGs, it's mostly still combat and dialogues - the video isn't being entirely honest. One could argue that dialogues are effectively like cutscenes in presentation in triple-A RPGs nowadays, but modern games have automated solutions for non-major conversations. No one hand-crafts a conversation with generic NPC#874
A player experiencing something once is also what makes it beautiful. Once in a moon that one shot consumable is so good we consume it 20 times over the next decade.
I loved RPGs in Starcraft 1, and I made a few myself. None of them became popular, but SC1 editor was so easy to use it gave me an outlet to write 'cutscenes' with triggers and text. Man I miss that...
not just cutscenes, but every dialogue in game, every quest, everything, imagine adding every instance of dialogue for everything the character has done for every quest NPC
In my game design document, i have PVP as a midevil version of COD Warzone. Lol. Just quick melee matches over and over where we can warclub, cast spells, and teabag. The game is still a pipe dream at this point, as I'm just now getting into game dev.. but this channel really helps me stay out of the doom and gloom. It's hard doing everything 100% solo!
I love Thor's sentiments in every way. For anyone that thinks digital media is too much or not as easy to get into, MAKE TABLETOP GAMES!!! RPGs are some my favorite gaming experiences, and almost every tabletop is inherently an RPG since you're generating a character in a world! D&D is more than an avenue for video game literacy, you can expand your repertoire massively in both directions! Love you Thor!!!
Another part he didn't mention are dialog trees. Not only do you have to make unique lines when talking to a character, but pretty much every option you make, you need like 3 more for that single option, then 3 more, then 3 more, and on and on. Then you'll have to make sure all the lines match with the story and don't conflict each other, then for larger games like Fallout, you'll need to voice each and every one of those lines. And I'm fairly sure there's some RPGs where you can change your character's voice with like 8 different options, so you'll need 7 more va's to do them. Sticking to Fallout, FNV cut down a lot of the va work by not voicing any of the Courier's lines, but Fo4 had 2 possible characters that actually spoke, and the way they dealt with that is by dramatically reducing the amount of branches you could take in dialogue.
It may take a long time, but the people who play it will remember those one-time consumables for years to come~ It's like a fine steak vs a cheap steak.
gives me a different perspective to rpgs. Makes me appreciate when RPGs do creative things like in persona when they have the cut scene of just the portrait pop up and talk for a sec cause they can reuse that portrait for other scenes.
For the vast majority of unique/high-quality cutscenes that's indeed true, however there ARE some efficient (if less creative looking) ways to go about reusing content in cinematics... like reusing looped animations (like talking idles, banks of common behavior anims, etc) or modular camera/shot setups that are reused. Look at older Bioware games, for example, which were pretty infamous for reusing body animations for characters during NPC conversations across hundreds of scenes. They're not always one-shot consumables.
eating an entire pie by yourself is tough. We are not so different
Wut
I have never struggled eating an entire pie to my self! Pick a better pie next time! Lol
Update: it's not hard
Also update: help
We are slices of the same 355/113
Lmao
Not just that, but a full-featured RPG is a crossover of a ton of different little mechanics. It's the final boss for aspiring game devs. In the gamedev circle I come from, it's recommended that you take each piece of your dream RPG and make a small game around one piece at a time. Only once you've mastered all the elements are you recommended to put them together and make your dream RPG.
Cutscenes are totally right though, it's a bunch of work for something that gets used a single time. Although, it also cuts down on bugtesting, since the cutscene isn't going to have much variance in the contexts it'll play.
I was very surprised to hear him say that cutscenes were the hard part. Not the data storage, not the item typing, not the character sheet, not any of the rpg mechanics, but the story?
It's like saying the hardest thing you'll ever make is a visual novel, because you'll only ever experience one path once and everything else is thrown away if the player chooses a different path.
Same could be said for puzzle games. Every level of a puzzle game is specifically made. If you want to add more levels you have to spend time developing those levels instead of just slapping terrain and enemies together.
@ferinzz I'd have to agree with those takes. I've tried a couple of genres of games, but visual novels and puzzle games are my weakness, because implementations don't get very far at aaaaaall. It's a constant struggle to squeeze creativity out of the ol' noggin!
You only have to make the item storage system once, and it is, itself, a puzzle. I love solving a puzzle. But making puzzles myself? That's just homework!!!
For me my assumption was going to be the combat.
making sure everything is balanced enough so that it's all doable, with plenty of different builds, but never truly impossible and never too eas y(unless you grind like no hell)
just the thought of trying to balance something like an rpg makes me want to curl up and hide
@@fairystail1 and after all your effort some guy figures out a combo you never considered that trivialises everything so you gotta go rebalance it all again! i dont envy those poor dev teams
Uh
I didn't have any idea what to do so I just started my game dev journey WITH an rpg game....
(I have been working on the rpg game for about an year now with only 2 minutes of content)
Yeah no the save mechanics were the hardest part
Not to mention all the content you create that the player might NOT see, Its actually insane
Makes you appreciate elden ring when you think about it
Or people who finish Chrono Trigger once and call it a day... When there are 11 ending routes and 1 hidden after story.
Shoutouts to RPGs on GBA for weird requirements and obscure content
@@HenSt-gz7qj oof. btw I'm trying to make a game that has at least 20 endings, but all the paths are cross-linked so there's a few thousand different ways to reach each general ending. since the game state is also affected by the specific path taken its practically impossible to get all the endings.
@@HenSt-gz7qj and the side-quests
Dev: Makes cutscene
Player: Annoyed they cant skip it
On the fifth playthrough, I don't always wanna see all the cutscenes again
@@mjb405understandable, have a nice day
@@mjb405I think it's the people that skip curscenes on their first playthrough that are the problem
@@LtCdrXander ya those pll are weird. Rpgs are story driven, why would you skip the main aspect of the game
@@0071slipknot this reminded me of the other day when I was watching a vod of Smallant's first playthrough of Shadow of the Erdtree, and I was a bit let down when he skipped over text and didn't pay attention to the story, only focusing on getting to bosses, not even fighting any regular enemies. Like he'd ask if an enemy was a boss, and when it wasn't, then he'd just skip it and move on to the next thing. I know the boss fights are the main thing that draws people to Fromsoft games, but to me their lore, worldbuilding, and characters are the highlights of their games. I guess the gameplay of Fromsoft games is more exciting action than, say, a turn-based RPG, but the games are still very character and lore driven. Therefore, when people don't pay attention to all the work the devs put into the lore and story aspects, it's kinda disappointing. It's like if you only watched the combat scenes in the Lord of the Rings trilogy and skipped every story development.
It makes me appreciate all the RPGs I play even more now
I agree! A lot of memorable moments in RPGs only repeat once just to be remembered. Other genres tend to overuse and have ideas and characters overstay their welcome
looking at fire emblem.
@@PButler199414 what do you mean by that specifically
@@juicyjuustar121 used "cutscenes" flashbacks a lot. FF also did it a lot. also the loss of a character was complete game changer.
That is... neither what he said nor the point he was making.
@@shilohmagic7173 so what does he mean by that specifically?
It's basically like making 6 hours of content or 20 min of content that can be replayed for 6 hours
Well, more like 20 hours of content, of which 10 hours is required to reach the end of the game and the other 10 hours is optional (which is the case for most good RPG's, rarely does an RPG that requires 100% consumption of content equal good). Where the other is making 4 hour of content, but have previously played content that can be replayed simultaneously.
@@Predated2no
Well said
League of legends where they've been reusing more or less the same core map every season with minimal tweaks for years with users playing well over 20,000 half hour matches...
The storyline director for Alpha Protocol had this happen, they had to arrange over 30 hours of cutscenes with alternating dialogue, branches, decisions, consequences that player would only see maybe 12 minutes of. Also the game was just mid and had very little replay value.
As an RPG developer with a background in writing - it cannot go overstated just how much this resonated with me. Hits the nail on the head.
It’s the same thing when you make a choose your own adventure type game, the paths that you make for each option only get used one time.
Bethesda using computer generated landscapes, reversed dungeons, 8 voice actors for 400 characters, 6 death animations, and the same 3 puzzels for 32 dungeons. 👀
Viarmo, Belethor, and Nick Valentine still haunt me to this day, I can't pay attention when they all sound the same (and that's not even getting into unnamed characters yet...)
Starfeild's greatest fault is they built way too much game, a focused approach would be better than everything and the kitchen sink. Any new writing, 3D model, system or voice line, reused or not, is unique content. Bethesda also has a relatively small team for the scale they work at.
@spicysalad3013 I just try to pretend that's the Skyrim accent and there is just a lot of people there that sound alike 😂
Making an RPG is more like writing a novel than making most genres of game. And if you're trying to make an open world RPG with lots of arrive content and freedom of choice, it's more like writing an entire franchise worth of shared universe TV shows for a single project.
It's like writing 2 branching novels and then writing a book of small stories
More like writing a novel and also 3d animating a movie to go with it
the point is be prepared to push your own boundaries if you want to make an open world RPG
You hit the Nail on the head with my current personal projects problem and what makes it even worse is that I'm not just writing a game but I've got at least 1-2 movie series and 2 book series in mind due to the story having multiple Protagonists (6 total active protagonists which are each interwoven characters with their own goals and motivations each brought together by 1 thing their Shared trauma at the hands of the order of the rose)
(In an earlier draft of the full story the main games protagonist, Iris Blackrose was going to be a serial killer but my best friend convinced me to cut that trait out and To be Entirely honest I've been Stuck in Rewriting Hell for almost a year because that singular change Domino's so much that it risks Completely Changing the Story (and I can't just hand wave it away because even to me it screams plot hole) so I've had to add a new Character to be the serial killer that pushes Crimson (one of the two the planned movie protagonists the other focusing on Akane the Red) to directly meet Iris using his eye powers to see she's connected to the case, whilst Lucius (Books protagonists a pure Private Investigator) gets involved with Akane (an Escaped Test Subject and part of the 2nd generation of experiments that iris, Crimson, Lucius and ash were made for but ended in catastrophic failure so they wipped their memories and them under the captivity of 4 people within the same neighbourhood and drugged those 4 to give them 1 goal Make sure they Never Exit The properties Bounds but don't kill them(it took almost 15 years from this initial imprisonment and that influence poisoned the will of the 4 captors transforming them into horrific abusers (iris's backstory has overt Hints to Child(because she's been here in this house her Entire life as far back as she remembers) $exual abuse as a subject matter based on the dialogue of the "farther" and the player is actually in control of this backstory In a telltale style so must make reactive choices (she points out that she hid a screwdriver underneath the stairs to the basement so plans to kick her "Farther" full force and then run grab the screwdriver and if the back doors locked Pry It open with the Screwdriver as her "farther friends" are waiting for her towards the front door in the living room (soon to be dead room if you miss the Screwdriver (because that unlocks the option to Grab the knife 🔪),
And in the present which is 10 years after iris's escape she is still dealing with Frequent Flashbacks along with anxiety and C-PTSD (which in the current rewrite she handles through having 1 close friend but is frequently liable to breakdown, and I plan to reintegrate the original serial Killer Plotline via a specific chain of events in the backstory that lead to iris not having a full support network
I don't know if I'm supposed to feel targeted, but nothing will stop me from making that either way. I like pain.
To be fair, thats true of all cut scenes, its just that RPGs tend to have a LOT of them
it's beyond just the cutscenes, though; in an FPS you build the gun, the bullets, the enemies, and their interaction. In an RPG you build a quest and that quest is never used again - at best its framework will be. RPGs in general are just more consistent development needs than something like an FPS or platformer.
@@c.f.bellairs1055 This is why I am 100% OK with game frameworks that rely on text narrative to present the quest. It's a lot easier/cheaper/faster to hire a good scriptwriter/new novelist (and some staff/ghost writer assistants) to pump out a lot of fairly unique individual quests/events.
Next step up as allowed by budget, hire a couple of artists to do sketches/illustrations to accompany the text. Just some images to highlight key NPCs or key moments in the narrative action, to convey the game world's vibe or emotions of the moment.
Same for voice acting and voiced narration. It seems like more people respond positively to voice-acting (well, good voice acting) Though I think illustrations can get more bang for the buck, budget-wise. Consistently good voice acting seems pretty expensive.
I'm not a super imaginative guy, but this format in some games has been enough to keep me engaged and fondly remembering some stories long after I finish the game. Fully rendered, voice, animated in-engine cutscenes just seem to take so much more in resources and time, thus budget.
I remember I was constantly in awe at how many one-time use in-game voice lines and cut scenes were made for GTA V. The GTA Online missions got repetive recycled framework, assets and animations like crazy, but even they had a ton of unique character model rigging, mocap, etc done when considered in aggregate. Lots of Shark card revenue and lots of players over a decade. :P
@@c.f.bellairs1055 in an fps you build a level and then never use it again, what even is this argument? And the level that is build for the fps game is usually a million times more complicated because of highly complex combat systems and enemy ai (think of doom for example) than a quest in an rpg where you just have to go to some place you already been to 10 times and then the characters uses recycled animations to talk to you. How replayable and open something is is HIGHLY dependant on the type of game and it could be either an fps or an rpg. Besides, a lot of fps games have many rpg features nowadays. The lines are blurry.
@@Crowbar You're correct. I don't disagree. lmao
Also, plenty of FPS games nowadays reuse assets and levels *gladly*. And we're also talking about what we find more personally impressive which is entirely opinion - I'm more impressed by RPG worlds and storylines, you're more impressed by complex FPS maps and levels. Both are valid.
I am however sticking to my original claim. It's significantly more challenging to create a convincing RPG world with a myriad of quests and grinds than it is to create an FPS with a myriad of setpieces in which you shoot enemies.
@@Crowbar The combat system isnt recreated for each level/map, you need to build one time and create a self "dependancy" of the level-gameplay making both compatible. Then, with all respect, they can simply mesh stuff intuitively with how you know things behave, and do gameplay test on it if it breaks.
Rpgs on the other hand, can get more manual. Positioning objectives and how(IF) they interact with your character/party/choice/wather. Creating an engaging main story decent side quests, with a fun combat system so it doesnt become a burden too fast. A lot of rpg games resort to some tricks to artificially increase its game lenght and reuse assets, being it fetch quest, backtracking, high encounter rates, grind systems... it is hard to manage all that, avoid all of these without creating a "corridor visual novel" where combat is almost a check list.
In FPS and other genres if you nail your gameplay you have over 60% done, I have games I wish had more levels just to get different situations to experience that gameplay and keep pushing it.
I dont know man i can build an RPG in my machine shop garage in a few hours. Honestly the longest part would be the rocket itself but you can buy off the shelf parts for that from your local hobby store
yeah but like he said, you only get one use 😂
I like this guy.
(Off-camera) _"Put him on the list"_
😂
You only get one shot, do not miss your chance to blow
I love it that we had the same idea lol, having some good mashines is key
Makes New Vegas absolutely astonishing after being made in just 18 months
True, though what should be kept in mind is that FNV had almost all of its technical work completed already, what with it using the FO3 framework. That saved a HUGE amount of time, that the team could use to tell stories instead of building a program around them.
I mean my friend got it on release and to hear him tell it NV was worse then 76 on release. The bugs would just demolish your game 10 minutes in. It wasn't until they went through several patches that the amazing content in the game was even playable because it was nigh impossible to not have the whole thing spontaneously combust.
@@jonasfree2he’s not lying, even today New Vegas is held together by love and faith lol
the man is talking about indie devs making art, not corporations milking as much of your money as possible wasting as little time as possible
@Frustratedartist2 you have to remember that there are still creators working inside that company making art. The company can command them to change certain aspects or add microtransactions, but whats actually making the art is and always will be the human beings you never see behind the dev team. It's not fair to undermine those people's achievements, even if the company itself is shit, especially when they aren't the ones "ruining games" as much as the company and its shareholders are
What’s amazing is that Final Fantasy was able to build these fantastic cutscenes and still be one of the best looking of the 90s and early 2000s.
every story-driven game is like that
depends, one way to forgo it is to just not use cutscenes and just play audio in the background.
Ikr this guy just talking out of his ass like he has som great big knowledge
I was about to say. I don't get it, tons of games have one-shot cutscenes?
Yeah, but story-driven games generally don't go on for 100 hours. Most are done within 20.
@@m8rs558He gave a bad example of what he's trying to say. It's not so much about cutscenes specifically, but rather about the scope of the experience.
RPGs have to account for player choice, so they have a ton of tiny details in them that may only be relevant one time or a handful of times, or may not even be seen at all if the player never finds or interacts with them.
Most other genres, though, such as FPSs, are much more guided experiences and so have a smaller pool of things that need to be created. And because the devs can guarantee so much of what you'll be doing, they can reuse individual details over and over again as needed.
*cod at 135GBs* “a million bullets”
same with R6, only like 12 maps and 30 characters and yet all the data is stored as high-res texture packs for EVERY WEAPON and CHARACTER. 4K fully fledged, or 8K high res possibility that comes at the cost of a whopping 80GB lmfao
@@Vifnismeanwhile elden ring with a map the size of a small country is 50gb
One thing good about the switches horrible specs is that we get to see how much better Nintendo is at optimizing their games
@@shyguy85 And then you realize the hardware take 4 frame to read your input, 2 for the game engine to render the picture, 1 for VSynch, 1 for the game code, and 5 because they use a outdated online system.
Meanwhile a non esport game on PC is about 36ms (or 2 frame) and a esport one is under 1ms. + 30ms of ping for online
@@shyguy85 the heart of that system was released in 1999. I’m sorry but there is no good side to that
One Shot consumable, you say?
Skyrim enters the room: "Allow me to introduce myself."
Thats what I said :D
Skyrim: Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste. I've been around for a long, long years, stole arch mages soul gems.
Yeah Skyrim is just like this lol
I would think that the hardest part would be creating the story and background, dialogues and that kind of stuff.
"Oh, You are finally awake..." XD XD XD
I remember a long time ago someone told me "when you start seeing the RPGs on consoles, that's when you know you are reaching the end of the consoles life. Shooters are the easiest things to make they are simple point and click, that's why they are always the 1st games to come out and always flood the market. RPGs on the other hand take so long that by the time devs figure out how to optimize the hardware enough it's time for the next gen"
Yup, it was the end of Switch right after the announcement of Breath of the Wild. /s
Yea we generally don't count Nintendo and whatever coke sniffing pipe dreams they keep putting out. Lol
Wasnt the BOTW for the Wii U? Thats's the sheikah plate was one. It was just a switch port?
@@DevDev-dm3st o ya that's correct lol. And totk came out and now we're getting a new console, the logic holds
@@reinkdesigns xenoblade 2 and fire emblem were 2017 and 2019. No the logic doesn't hold
this is why Baldur's Gate 3 is exceptional too. The depth of detail and hard work the team put in.
BG3 is fun, but the closer you look, the more you realize it actually isn't that deep or good.
Fun yes.
E
I literally played for half an hour and uninstalled it. Turn based combat is absolute garbage
@@Wabbajock_Dugatti there's an option to switch between turn based and real time combat. You'd most likely get destroyed in real time.
@@Wabbajock_Dugatti nah, just say you're not smart enough to plan decent strategies. You're brainrotted.
"Everytime you use a cutscene you throw it away and never experience it again"
Starfield has entered the chat.
Skyrim has been lurking in the chat
THE SHADE totally deserved though
That's why bethesda doesn't use cutscenes and just have characters exposit with useless conversation responses
Starfield's new game plus is a huge letdown imo. You go to a different universe, and... EVERYTHING IS THE SAME!!! YAY!!! There's only so many "unique" universes, but they're all gimmicks that don't mean anything to your play style or roleplay. Sarah Morgan is a plant! Yay? The Constellation members are all clones of me!! I should be able to use them as companions, right? Oh what's that? No? Oh well then what's the point?
This is exactly why I look for and appreciate secrets/bonus content in games
This is so true. Back in the day when RPG Maker was all the rage, and they introduced the possibility to hand paint a map instead of using a tile set. I remember arguing with people how even using the tile-set mapping takes so much time then roughly estimated it would take weeks to just create a basic dungeon from FF6.
But history proved me right, I can count the number of released RPG-Maker games that were actually any good on one hand (And one of those, One Shot, used a modified open-source version of the engine).
Amen to that. Never take a good RPG for granted, even if it's a shorter experience from 3 to 8 hours long.
Because the reason what they have is good is because each memorable sequence likely has as much condensed effort poured in it as you would put in an entire stage in some other genres.
And the dialogue, the amount of characters, the amount gameplay content... A RPG is a mini-world.
This is why games like Disgaea and Tale of Symphonia used portraits for dialogue instead of cutscenes.
in the grand scheme of things those would probably be considered cutscenes - they are one shot "consumable" story elements - the assets and way to trigger them will be reused but the stuff being said will all be unique and cannot be re-used
@@JoelLikesPigs It takes far less work to just do dialogue than to do dialogue, voice acting, animation, camera work, music, sound effects, cinematic direction, etc.
Let's not undersell the difficulty of making FPS cutscenes either. I can only imagine how hard it was for the devs to give us the timeless cutscene that allowed us to press F to pay respects.
Pretty sure he meant stuff like Valorant by FPS not Metal Gear stuff because Metal Gear isn't *just* an FPS lel
@@Pokemaster-wg9gx metal gear??
@@Pokemaster-wg9gxThat would be -CoD: Ghosts- Advanced Warfare. Now as for Metal Gear and what I think the commenter below yours confusing this with Gears of War. They are both mostly third person shooters like Fortnite (Which in addition to being third person shooter is also a battle Royale)
Semantics are fun aren't they? :3
I think what he means for FPS the basic format is the same and you reuse alot of assets and animations. I mean unless you're making a stealth shooter there isn't much variation in the animation.
He isn’t saying that cutscenes are harder in RPG games than FPS games. The main draw of RPGs are the cutscenes and story, the gameplay is secondary to a lot of them. In an FPS game the gameplay is the primary draw, with the story being secondary. You can have an FPS game without any real story, cutscenes, or even scenarios. You can’t have an RPG without a story, scenario, or cutscenes in one way or another.
I’ve been seeing these shorts for about a week now.. I’m not a dev but you really make me think about trying to pick it up and give it a go.. you sir. Deserve all the subs.
This is why I love RPGs, you can feel the effort that went into making them and the experience is unique.
It goes beyond just throwing it away. Because you knowingly put your passion into something you know for a fact that some people are going to skip and ignore. An RPG is a labor of love to an audience that will never find everything you make.
The PS1 era FF games were great for this. Lots of mini-games and situations that appeared only once. Made them really memorable!
That's why Final Fantasy XIV is so wild. they actually allow you to relive the entire story and the game is actually designed around you building new jobs to go back and help out less experienced players. with one option checked you can actually watch all the cutscenes again with the new players and experience the story over and over again. The reusing of the story is built into veteran players helping out new players in a mmo. It's brilliant
The way SE keeps their content relevant and enjoyable more than once is extremely clever. The entire ecosystem of that game is pretty underrated, imo, and handles things rather elegantly.
This is the first I've heard about this. Wild
RPG’s (mainly JRPGs) are some of my favorite games. It’s insane how much effort it takes to make one, and that effort shows. I’ve put over 100 hours into both Persona 5 Royal, and Octopath Traveler 2, and those games blew me away with details. Both games are amazing, and I can only imagine how long they took to make.
Got to appreciate all those RPG out there. Any game with good story backbone and storytelling worth more recognition.
TIL that only RPG games are allowed to have cutscenes
nah man all you have to do in put "make rpg" into the console of the engine your working in and boom, rpg done :)
It all makes sense now.
Seems how Bethesda has been doing it for the last few games,
This is the ChatGPT future.
What Thor doesn't acknowledge here is how easy it is to build cutscenes in an RPG compared to other games.
The majority of the story content of the RPG, particularly the style he's building, is writing text.
Speaking as a specialist in building platforming mechanics, building the mechanics of a platformer require a crazy amount of nuance and detail if you want it to play well.
I don't think Thor's being 100% realistic here.
Even using his example of bullets, no, good games that don't have simple copy-paste content have unique bullet types with unique programming, and then have additional mechanics that appear slowly as you progress that interconnect with other mechanics.
The time cost of writing 5 minutes of slowly read text in the RPG compared with the time cost of building 5 minutes of high quality FPS gameplay is not the same... it's waay quicker to write the RPG text.
Doesn't sound like that's so much an RPG issue, as it is a "game with a plot" issue. If I put a cutscene in an FPS, it's also going to get thrown away in the same way.
These days "RPG" seems to stand for "game with a branching plot", smh.
Yeah I don't get it, he may be right but the points weren't great. I've known of platformers, and honestly probably more than rpgs, that are in development hell for so long, over 3 years. I know of platformers that will take longer than deltarune to come out (assuming we follow deltarune development). It's all about the amount of detail and effort and RPGs that lack it are usually seen as very lame because of reused assets so the standard is higher, I feel, and that they just tend to be longer. Doesn't really have to do with the one time experience or reusability, imo, that's something rpgs can go for too if they want to, which makes me feel I'm missing conext about the kins of rpgs he's talking about.
The point isn't that those game genres don't have cutscenes or anything it's that they do not require it to be released as a game of that genre.
Story is integral to RPGs because that is part and parcel what the genre was birthed from. RPGs are always trying to emulate a tabletop experience similar to Dungeons and Dragons or Pathfinder. A key part to those games is a Dungeon Master or Game Master leading the plot for the players meaning there is somebody who is creating the environment and reasons for your character to go through.
Even in the most story devoid campaigns there is still going to be a description of the scenery and a reason for the player to be going through the game whereas something like a platformer can just drop you in a world and say go right/left and start jumping. Would it be fun and engaging? Maybe. Would it be a platformer? Yes.
In theory sure, but you'd be hard pressed to find any genre that uses cutscenes as heavily as RPGs do.
in concept yes. but cutscenes/story and actual gameplay are totally different things.
the meat of an RPG's gameplay is pretty much just the scenes you build.
other genres can rely a lot more on their core gameplay concepts so that everything is reusable and recyclable... can't really do the same with RPGs where the moment to moment gameplay heavily requires you build totally unique scenes. even a battle system isn't enough to subside that
That's why I love and absolutely respect these kinds of content.
That’s why I respect Borderlands so hard. They do both
Witcher 3: "Hold my mead"
FromSoftware: "Hold my estus"
My dyslexia did my dirty on the name "PirateSoftware" by reading "Pirates Of War" alongside "building an RPG is easy" 💀
Just recently stumbled upon your channel. Awesome insight into the gaming world
As a terrorist I'm pissed and reported this for misinformation.
@@lost4468ytreally
I agree, rpgs are tough to make. Especially when the government says “that’s illegal” and “how tf did u make a rocket launcher in ur basement”
This is such a beautifully simple way of describing the complexity of RPG design at any level, especially game development ❤
It is notable that you can avoid these issues by being economic with your time. In-game cutscenes are hard, but if you make a Visual Novel style framework they become easy even if they look less impressive. Prerender cutscenes from an animation program, etc. if youre worried about any individual features there may be crafty wats to achieve the same goal
"economic with your time" also known as "cutting corners" :'> at least if it is about lowering cut scene quality to save time, if you originally wanted a certain style and are now compromising for time. But even then, the games he brought up aren't exactly cinematic masterpieces, Undertale "cutscenes" are either slideshows of still images or sprites moving across the screen, it does not get more "economical". It still takes many years to make a game like that, due to the sheer amount of writing, branching paths and dialog options, insane amounts of npc-s and content variety. Versus if it was some sort of roguelike dungeon crawler with the same assets and style, where rooms were random generated, with very little dialog or story, and it is all about the bullet hell mini game. It could have been a 1 month pet project. Of course, it would probably not see the success it did, but it would have been quick to make.
@@aki-senkinn I think from this it's pretty clear you don't have much experience programming and that's fine, I just feel like this response comes from a place of not having the requisite experience.
Every single game released has made dozens if not hundreds of compromises, doesn't matter if it has 1 or 1000 developers, compromising and "cutting corners" is not inherently a bad thing. Its most important to be able to recognize where you can cut corners and what is scope-creep.
Look at a cutscene in undertale and compare it to a visual novel. A visual novel is just a few systems, you have some basic input, a dialogue system (which can be quite complex), and some sort of basic animation system that can apply animations to a sprite (plus swap them out). Now compare that to undertale where you entirely rewrite character controllers, build a basic custom scripting system to script movements and animations, animate every single action scene, time dialogue and have actions progress based on that, and so on.
If you want to make an RPG, the visual novel style might be more practical. it's less work, easily scales with the available art budget, and avoids a lot of complex programming problems you may run into but obviously it's just a different way of accomplishing a similar goal. It's important as a developer to be able to recognize how key this feature is to your game, the specific impacts of it, and determine if it fits into the scope of your project. People incapable of doing this are often incapable of releasing games, code complexity is exponential and scope creep is terminal.
@@christophernoneya4635 I am a programmer, and while it's not my career anymore I have some smaller released hobby projects with small to moderate success. I understand the importance of compromises to be able to actually release something in less than a human lifetime. In my experience, while scope creep is a frequent issue, sanding a project down until barely anything is left is just as bad; either out of impatience, loss of drive, deadlines, lack of resources, or plain laziness just giving up on once cool features.
I used to work in an environment with strict deadlines and having to cut the project to size, and back then I used to agree to your sentiments; but then it was also where i always got burnt out from every project very fast and i was mentally checked out by the end every time; and I just couldn't take any pride in anything ever that got released.
I personally just think by now, if I cannot do a project properly and to it's fullest, then I will do a smaller project, that was always designed to be smaller in scope; instead of just cutting a bigger idea down until it is a bundle of wasted potential. Cutting small corners is one thing; lots of small things can add up to save tons of time; but if I'm at the point of changing genres then it's not that, at that point it's an entirely different game. In case of Undertale, turning it into a visual novel would completely miss the core idea of it being a subversion on classical RPG combat, and giving the option to befriend monsters; it would not be the same game, and probably not worth the time to make it at all.
And then you skip the cutscene lmao, the dev be like:" nice he skipped 3 months of my work in 2sec with pressing esc"
Speedrunners and story skippers make developers scream internally.
Hire better writers then instead of the industry standard of dogshit writers straight out of college with their fresh creative writing degree that taught them nothing.
@@cattysplatspeed runners at least have seen the content often several times. Story skippers are really weird though why buy a story driven game just to not interact with the story and if the individual has brain damage on top might even say the game has no story.
Then you email the dev and say “Where’s the story???”
@@iseechords i mean i payed for a game not a movie :v
I agree with him, but the reasonings he gave was very, very odd. Like FPS games can have cutscenes too and they would function the exact same as they would in an RPG. Nothing about the framework in an RPG makes cutscenes operate in an exclusive way compared to other games
I think he was trying to get at the level of intentionality you need to make an rpg, it's like writing a book
@@andrewgreeb916 I do understand to a degree where he was going since he mentioned how a lot of things had to be thrown away immediately. He just used cutscenes as an example. My point was how that’s a really bad example. It doesn’t properly illustrate the difference between an RPG and an FPS.
Now additionally, I also think the main point he was trying to make is similarly a poor point. For example he says an FPS needs a framework to shoot things, and that never needs to change. Yet he says the framework for an RPG would always need to change, but I just think that’s blatantly false. Try playing FF14 and the framework stays the same for the entire game. The only thing that truly changes is the margin for error you have within that framework, but that works for damn near 1000 hours because it’s a really well laid framework
At that point, you're making an FPS RPG, which is still... an RPG.
@@Thienthan I’m rather positive Call of Duty is not an RPG with all its numerous cutscenes
@@gypsyofthebardthat’s an on rails campaign, not an open world RPG or even on rails RPG, you can’t take stuff back with you or have any different choices
This is also why the longer and more elaborate an RPG is, the harder it is to make player decisions matter
As someone who's getting into development and chose my first game as an RPG, it's most tempting to release it as an Early Access game.
I damn well know it'll take 10 years to get done, and most companies do not hire off of unshipped games
I genuinely thought he was talking about a rocket-propelled grenade launcher, not the game genre lmao
You are not alone
Make an rpg rpg, rocket propelled grenade role playing game
@@andrewgreeb916we had the same Idea,
My brain blanked so hard when he said that
Learning a lot from this guy
He’s mostly stating things confidently. A lot of the shorts I’ve seen he makes absolute statements about some subject without much or any nuance. RPGs can definitely reuse content and ideas. You just have to be smart about how you do it.
Statements like ”All of it is a one shot consumable. All of it” sound smart but it’s not true
I think he means that conversations/dialog or events can't be repeated (or at least shouldn't be, with the exception of anything time related).
Arcade games as an example are mostly variations of the same idea with increasing complexity or novelty, anything with narrative woven into it will likely be lengthier to make.
But to your point, it's not absolute but a general majority.
Your FPS could have every enemy be unique, but that's overkill and content reuse is acceptable in that genre.
Repeating a quest? Less acceptable, it's done sometimes but when it is, it's typically critized.
You needed this guy to tell you a game with hundereds of cutscenes and thousands of lines of dialogue takes longer time to develop than a shooter?
@@pontusoskarsson5998 Agreed. Like as soon as he said that, the word flashbacks came to mind.
I never consider those stories and cutscenes to be throwaways. Those stories, especially the good ones, they stick with me. Story is the best part of gaming that has been sidelined by big publishers. You are doing beautiful work by telling stories.
FromSoftware: Y'all be doing cutscenes?
Making an RPG looks tough, never tried to make a game before but the work that goes into RPGs seems crazy
The cutscenes point is rock solid, but you are also effectively making a world, even if you make a point of keeping conversations down to a paragraph for your first rpg meant for practice, you still are generally wanting to put sooo many details to make the world feel alive.
@@trash-heap3989yep! In a shooter game you can just say it takes place during the Cold War and then boom. Decades of interesting stuff to use! But an RPG? Man, even a boring “typical” high fantasy RPG still needs all this new information to make its game world unique
Making an rpg is easy, making a great and memorable rpg is difficult.
Even Bethesda struggles to make rpgs and that's basically their whole thing.
Yeah its basicly like creating story, world, and so on, but other type of games tend to be creating just addictive gameplay that basicly repeats itself, and has high replay. Playing through rpg is like watching movie or reading book you are less likely to pickup those medias immediately again, but you have to create them in way the media is encaging that whole time during that experience. Basicly like his example of cutscenes in rpg everything is one time consumable even though takes longer to create like cutscenes you watch usually that one time then just dont care about seen that scene anymore
thanks for helping me understand why Silksong was announced years ago, but we have no idea when it is going to come out.
Nah that's unrelated Team Cherry just hates you
There's also the part where it was announced Prior to the entire world having to change in order to deal and handle Basically everything that has been happening since then
That's also caused a huge shift in things and altered time frames
That's due to bad communication. Team Cherry has basically been radio silent since the silksong announcement
@@NoName...... To be fair, it might be for the better they're trying not to build too much hype, especially when they're trying to basically make something better than hollow knight,
as No Man's Sky can attest took them Years to finally deliver on the hype and promises made
I mean Hollow knight took three years to develop even more if you consider the fact that concept started further bacm. So it's pretty much in line with it's development time so far.
I think he's talking about story focused adventure games, not really RPGs. Or like, not what RPGs used to mean anyway.
Any game can let people role-play. Plot driven adventure games just push them more towards it. Still it's a misnomer.
@@AntiCookieMonsterNot every game can let people roleplay.
How am I supposed to feel for an 8-bit alien? Or godforbid a jet that fires lasers?
@@Geheimnis-c2eu are roleplaying as the driver of the jet
This is incredibly valuable information. Here I was under the impression that an RPG would be easier than trying to learn how to code something more visually or physically complex.
Cutscenes are cool and all, but my favorite rpgs are still like golden sun and the gameboy advance final fantasies, most of those didn't have a cutscene that brought you into a entirely different scene, it just used the same sprites on the same field but with scripted more emotive animations, I'd assume golden sun style dialog/cutscenes are so much easier to do and i fkn loved them
I hear you, and was immediately reminded of Final Fantasy 7, how they had the arcade at the end that you could go to so you could replay all the minigames. THAT is a way to reuse content in an RPG.
Edit : 3 words at the end.
Derp face :3
@@galaxysheep444lol
I would venture to say that RPG's are not the most difficult thing to make, for example a fps needs all kinds of systems in place for things like hit registration, and require a 3d environment, even if it's like Doom, and platformers need physics systems. RPGs don't require any of that, just a text system, sprites and button mapping at minimum, the real programming challenge of RPGs is just how MUCH you have to make
So you're saying that Witcher 3, rdr2, bg3, and Many more open world rpg games don't need hit reg( when they slash their sword or shoot guns or arrow), 3d environment (are you saying these open world games are 2d?), and physics where u literally ride horses and get dragged when you fall due to inertia?
@@bhandos9062 You missed the point completely and ended up just strawmmaning the OP entirely.
Picking RPG's that have components the OP said aren't nessecary doesn't make them nessecary for RPG's.
Its nessecary for those games in particular but not for RPG's as a whole.
You can make an rpg in 2d, with turn based combat using no physics at all. (Early JRPG's do this or even stuff like Fallout 1/2 do most of these). So no these are not nessecary components to make an RPG they are optional and their inclusion depends on the game.
So, as someone who regularly plays around with old-school style text-based/turn-based RPGs and modding things:
You are either not knowing enough about the subject, or not being honest in your assessments.
RPGs aren't 'just a text system, sprites, and button mapping'. To make that claim overlooks basically any and all interaction mechanics and the balancing thereof. Which takes a LOT of time to do, and a lot of pre-planning to have a hope of not having to go back to the drawing board on something every few weeks.
You also vastly overrate how hard it is to set up a 3D environment while actively pretending sprites aren't far more dfficult/time-consuming to work with. A 3d model can, once made, be animated to do just about anything. You can get away with using a single person model for DOZENS of unique entities by slapping different heads or prefab clothes on it while re-using extant animations. Sprites on the other hand, require not only an extra level of artistic coherency, but also CAN'T really be reused in the same way 3d models can, especially in animation. You are limited to palette-swapping for that, at best.
A cutscene in a 3d game might be made with pre-existing models, simply animated and framed in different ways by the camera. A cutscene for a sprite-based game that doesn't involve characters 'wiggling' at each other, involves redrawing the entire sprite from the idle pose through every frame of animation, for EACH AND EVERY new movement you want them to do. The higher you go in resolution, the more WORK involved in that, assuming you aren't 'faking' the sprites by using 3D models and some filters to create the sprites. There is, to my knowledge, no IK or procgen for sprites, with even motion tweening requiring a lot more work to make it look okay than what modern 3D requires.
I think you're all underestimating each others genre and a lot of cherry picking. Like wtf rpg game are you playing in 2024 that it's all text based and it's sprite???? Rpg maker games??? Or games dedicated to bring back old school rpgs like say octopath traveler? And even then there's a lot of effort still involve in that.
@@theresnothinghere1745nessecary 💀💀💀
But your game doesn't have a story tho
Wrecked lmfao
Stupid joke is stupid
The only other genre that's as hard is fighting games, for the complete opposite reason. You have very few assets, comparatively, but each asset and its myriad possible interactions has to be utterly immaculate because that's the entire experience, and it needs to stand up to the highest possible scrutiny under fire.
This relies on the assumption that every RPG requires cutscenes.
Every traditional RL completely defecates on the idea that nothing is reusable.
Sure, if FNAF Security Breach is an RPG and Daggerfall isn't, then this works.
My man, you've been in games long enough to know that RPG is the worst "genre" to generalise because three's pretty much no other term that means more different things depending on who you ask.
I believe he is talking about just a completely different mindset of what kind of game you are making. Most RPGs are designed story first and gameplay second, with most stories being completely linear experiences with no replay value, so you have to be happy that cutscenes will features lots of hard work that will never be used in gameplay. Indie genres like roguelikes function more like arcade games, where almost everything will be seen and used more than once intentionally, often using it as much as possible to avoid having to add more assets and work to the project.
@@cattysplat Nah, this is untrue. Designing a game story first, gameplay second just doesn't work. In practice, you're constantly making concessions to the systems for the game to not just be fun, but even **playable**.
Most RPGs are designed *with narrative systems* in mind, this is true, but the story itself, aside from maybe a high-concept outline, is usually a pretty late addition. Heck, even the high-concept outline often gets chucked in the trash.
Being a videogame writer is a super tough job because of this -- they're usually brought in too late, with too few tools, and expected to work miracles in the first draft.
There's a game called "The Writer Will Do Something" that is very famous within gamedev circles that I recommend playing. Every games writer I know swears by it.
Unless it's the Witcher III, in which case I will replay the game 8 times
Adventure games (or action-adventures) tend to have a lot of cutscenes, too. And FPS tend to be a lot like action-adventures these days
Cutscenes aren't usually the primary gameplay loop of RPGs, it's mostly still combat and dialogues - the video isn't being entirely honest. One could argue that dialogues are effectively like cutscenes in presentation in triple-A RPGs nowadays, but modern games have automated solutions for non-major conversations. No one hand-crafts a conversation with generic NPC#874
A player experiencing something once is also what makes it beautiful. Once in a moon that one shot consumable is so good we consume it 20 times over the next decade.
Thats why SWTOR is so good even after so many years. The possibilities and the work put into the game is amazing
Roguelikes: "ARE YOU SURE ABOUT THAT?"
I didn't know he knew how to make rocket-propelled grenades. What a smart guy.
Damn.. my wait for ES6 just became that much more meaningful.
I loved RPGs in Starcraft 1, and I made a few myself.
None of them became popular, but SC1 editor was so easy to use it gave me an outlet to write 'cutscenes' with triggers and text.
Man I miss that...
This guy is the CEO of RPGs
That's basically just every videogame that relies on cutscenes to tell the narrative of the game, not just RPG's lol.
They make those moments count though in the good RPGs, every big fromsoftware game has made some of the most memorable cutscenes i swear
not just cutscenes, but every dialogue in game, every quest, everything, imagine adding every instance of dialogue for everything the character has done for every quest NPC
Glad you posted this, adds a greater appreciation to the craft
Today I learnt Silksong isn't a metroidvania... it's an RPG
In my game design document, i have PVP as a midevil version of COD Warzone. Lol. Just quick melee matches over and over where we can warclub, cast spells, and teabag. The game is still a pipe dream at this point, as I'm just now getting into game dev.. but this channel really helps me stay out of the doom and gloom. It's hard doing everything 100% solo!
Not me thinking he was talking about a boomstick in the beginning
“Build a framework of bullets then build a million different bullets”
Enter the Gungeon in a nutshell
Oneshot makes the ENTIRE GAME a one shot piece of content.
Idk, the scene with Tyrial ripping his wings off was worthy of more than one rewatch.
When this guy finishes a game i will actually take his thoughts into account.
You may use the Switch statement a thousand times, but every Case happens only once.
That first sentence almost had me taking notes lol
RPGs famously are the only games that use cutscenes
Some games get around this by making you rewatch the cutscene every time you re-enter the map.
Time to make a timeloop RPG where you see the same cutscene four times and only your character realises it
Those cutscenes can live on forever in some cases as people constantly look back, make essays involving them and a lot more
I love it when you can replay the cutscene and appreciate it
I love Thor's sentiments in every way. For anyone that thinks digital media is too much or not as easy to get into, MAKE TABLETOP GAMES!!!
RPGs are some my favorite gaming experiences, and almost every tabletop is inherently an RPG since you're generating a character in a world! D&D is more than an avenue for video game literacy, you can expand your repertoire massively in both directions!
Love you Thor!!!
If Klonoa's scream in the first game was replayable in-game, it would lose it's desperation and sadmess
We appreciate your hard work.
_"you're never going to use that cutscene every again"_
Gonna make an rpg about time travel 😂
Another part he didn't mention are dialog trees. Not only do you have to make unique lines when talking to a character, but pretty much every option you make, you need like 3 more for that single option, then 3 more, then 3 more, and on and on. Then you'll have to make sure all the lines match with the story and don't conflict each other, then for larger games like Fallout, you'll need to voice each and every one of those lines. And I'm fairly sure there's some RPGs where you can change your character's voice with like 8 different options, so you'll need 7 more va's to do them.
Sticking to Fallout, FNV cut down a lot of the va work by not voicing any of the Courier's lines, but Fo4 had 2 possible characters that actually spoke, and the way they dealt with that is by dramatically reducing the amount of branches you could take in dialogue.
It may take a long time, but the people who play it will remember those one-time consumables for years to come~
It's like a fine steak vs a cheap steak.
And why rpgs are the true kings of escapism. Blessed is the finely curated content
gives me a different perspective to rpgs. Makes me appreciate when RPGs do creative things like in persona when they have the cut scene of just the portrait pop up and talk for a sec cause they can reuse that portrait for other scenes.
For the vast majority of unique/high-quality cutscenes that's indeed true, however there ARE some efficient (if less creative looking) ways to go about reusing content in cinematics... like reusing looped animations (like talking idles, banks of common behavior anims, etc) or modular camera/shot setups that are reused. Look at older Bioware games, for example, which were pretty infamous for reusing body animations for characters during NPC conversations across hundreds of scenes. They're not always one-shot consumables.