I agree with you Rory that pickleball is much more enjoyable, intriguing, and challenging when playing opponents that understand the game better and have more variation, nuance, and unpredictability to their games. There are so many ways to win points in this great game, defeating bangers becomes less interesting (fulfilling) as you advance past the 4.5 level.
Thanks for your reply. The problem is, nowadays, it's very difficult to find games that are played like pickleball is meant to be played. I do find them occasionally.
I totally agree with your point of view. I am only 3.6 currently,, but enjoy playing against AND with 4.0 and 4.0+ . More variety of shots. You can actually get a rhythm going. When you play against or with lower levels, it's crazy town. If your partner drives everything- you cannot get to the net that easily, and at lower levels those drives have zero topspin and hit the back fence anyway. I have played numerous games and NO dinks were had. You can reset their drives and instead of dinking they make an ill advised speed up at you which ends up in the net. And if someone just wants to play that way and never advance or learn new shots, then that's fine, but they will get destroyed against better players
Ive gone in phases on my game. For a long time I wanted to play the soft game, then there was a period of time I liked the power game. Now I just realize to be a good pickleball player you have to be competent with both styles. Dont forget your resets and dont forget offensive lobs.
Another great one Rory! I follow the rule of not speeding up twice in a row. It helped my game tremendously! Coming from baseball background so I’m trying not to be a banger. My awareness has gotten so much better from that one rule.
I honestly enjoy both? Learning pretty quickly, would probably place myself around 3.75. If someone hands me a put away, it's very satisfying to do so, but outplaying someone at a soft game is great too. Especially if you're playing against someone who doesn't really have much of a soft game. Just yesterday I had someone on the other team hit a really high pop-up that barely cleared the net; I acted like I was going to smash it into powder, so they both backed up and then I just kind of barely tapped it over the net instead 😂
I love a good dink rally *as a player*, when my head's all the way into it, but frankly as a spectator I believe it can be a bit dull. My favorite in either scenario is a game that's very dink-oriented but also has some variety in the form of speedups, resets, maybe even an offensive lob or some power-ball when one side's forced off the line. Nothing excites me like a great save, and there are relatively few of those in a pure dinking game. The problem I have with bangers is not that they're wrong or even that it's not a fun way to play, but more that if you have a mix of dinkers and bangers only the bangers are having fun unless the dinkers are *significantly* better. It seems selfish, basically. When I play with folks weaker than myself, I forego the power shots. Instead, I focus on accuracy by sending back slower balls that make people stretch a bit ... and it works. Many times, other players have commented on how much fun some of those rallies are, and they don't even know why because I don't tell them that's what I'm doing. People love those long rallies, whether it's all dinking or something else.
I think this is maybe higher than 4.0. There is plenty of offense in this game. Not sure why you would consider this a finesse game. There is a bit inconsistency though with the drives. I would have liked to see less cross court dinking action. They should try to aggressively move the opponent around and get them off balance instead of hitting to the same spot. It is a fallacy to believe that the soft game rules at advanced levels. It is true one must have good soft skills at higher levels however there are many pros that prefer attacking pickleball - ALW , Gabe Tadio that come to mind. As paddle technology advances you will see people gravitate towards the power game since both grit and power has increased, it is becoming easier and easier to control topspin. In my area I know of only one advanced finesse player at the 4.5-5.0 level. Everyone else has switched to power or balanced attack/defense as the main weapon while retaining their soft skills. While dinking and dropping still exists it is a means to an end to force a ball that can be attacked. Those who insist on the slow game as king are being left behind and unable to keep up with the new wave of pickleball players. The reason is that while every soft shot is returnable not every attacking shot is. And if you are hitting your drives out that is a technique problem, not a problem with the shot itself.
@@williamroberts2734 Everyone messes up sometimes. Its just the frequency of it. Even Ben Johns will hit a bad shot from time to time. I think it was sufficiently low but everyone has their own opinion.
I play mainly with senior players here in western NY, can only think of a couple who are at or near 4.0. I enjoy the game when played at a varied pace, but I am in the minority here.
i think they hit it to the lefty cuz he wasnt very aggressive about speeding the ball up. they know if they dink reasonably they wont get attacked whereas the righty was attacking and speeding the ball up more often and wining that way.
So many missed serves and returns. Guess it must be nerves? A good drill is to play a game where both teams start at 7. If you don’t win when you have game point at 10 you drop back to 7. Good for practicing closing a game.
I agree that pickleball should be played like these players. I am getting tired playing these days after a year later because most players in our club and those I meet at the park just want to play mini tennis smash game instead of taking time to learn how to do drops and court positions
Unfortunately, that could be where the game is going. Especially with the more powerful paddles. I really hope they reel the power in. Thanks for watching.
I am that person with ADD and think dinking/soft game is boring :).. And I too agree I would get destroyed by these people because of it lol Got any footage where someone was a beast at lobbing at a 4.0 level?
So pickleball has a weird dynamic in which some players want the point to last as long as possible. Every other sport you want the point to end as quickly as possible so long as you are winning the point. Because it is more efficient. Long points in pickleball happen when both sides are equally skilled and respect each others counters and neither side has a clear advantage. Close games are always more exciting. In this video the moment an opponent has an opportunity to put away the ball they try to do so. The problem in lower level games falls under 2 categories. 1. A player gives a popup or attackable shot and the point is over due to lack of skill. 2. They pass up attackable shots because either they don't have the skill to attack or dink the ball back because they believe "thats the way the game should be played" but completely miss the point of a dink or drop. I dislike the concept of how people believe the game of pickleball should be played in any specific way. Pickleball is a sport and whichever strategy wins most consistently is the "correct" way, which may depend on skill level and opponents. If you are a 3.0 or 3.5 level player most likely the best way to win points is by banging away, At higher levels you can still bang away but only at the shots that make sense. And this is what you see in this video. I will 100 percent change my play style depending on the level of my opponent and whether I respect their blocks/counters.
I understand what you're saying. I just think the slower, softer game is more fun to play. Unfortunately, finding those games to play in is becoming more and more difficult. Thanks for watching.
@@pickleballpick-apart9787 I think this is why after awhile pickleball players will break off into their own groups to play the style of game they want to play.
You don't give Jackies slice with the rediculous backsping on it any credit. More than once when the opposing team tried to return it and hit it into the net, you just said "they missed it", when in fact it was a seriously aggressive shot.
Eye protection is so important - glad you mentioned it. I was thinking they might be like 3.75 or something due to the sheer number of unforced errors, though.
Power games are great, until you meet an opponent who resets the ball into the kitchen consistently. At that point, patience, finesse, and reading the ball for the chance to speed up play become power hitter's greatest issue.
This looked a lot like some of the better games (top 2 courts) of my 3.5 - 4.0 league. Great game. I did not see a lot of dinking between the players sticking to mostly cross-court. But all good players not lobbing. --- I am always surprised when I see courts that do not have any fence or net barriers between the courts; seems really weird to spend the money to build nice courts like these and not put in something between them to keep balls from rolling through. I see a lot of that missing on this channel but essentially all the courts have them here in MN that I have seen - indoor and outdoor. Just odd to me.
No courts that I have ever played on are individually fenced off. Most do have barriers that are movable and are about three feet high. Thanks for watching.
I enjoy most of your videos, but to say a particular style is the proper way to play is just wrong. If you are out to just get some movement/exercise maybe, but the point of playing a sport is to win, regardless of "how" you play.
You can play any which way you prefer. I prefer to play a slower game. I seek them out. Maybe it's because I am better playing against players who play similar to me, whereas, I'm probably not as good playing against bangers.
@@pickleballpick-apart9787 Fair enough. I think there is a time and place for all types of play.....plus its more fun to hit it hard. I havent been playing long, maybe a year, patients and 3rd shot are not my strong points.
@@brianreynolds-u5x once you get around to it the most fun (and the most audience and opponent acclaimed) shot is the soft perfectly placed one that noone can get to. or the offspeed swing and a miss. Jus' sayin' !
This style may be good but for the majority it's boring if everyone play like this. There would no point of watching different player if there's one style. I have a feeling the Asians watching this and laugh because they will take over like ping pong.
This was good play, but I think you're very stuck on "finesse" as being the "proper" way to play. The power game is just as legitimate. Maybe it's an age thing (not you in particular)... but some older players refuse to accept change. They are stuck in a one-way mindset and have zero flexibility thus, they're left behind.
I do try to incorporate some power into my game, however you are right. I am older and I prefer finesse. I do understand the game is going to more power. I feel like when I play younger players. LOL!
@pickleballpick-apart9787 What I mean is you repeatedly mention finesse as "the way pickleball ought to be played". New people may not understand that this is just your personal preference and not actually a fact. Power is not an inferior way to play its just a different style...to each their own.
@@Vanessa-pe2xs I don't think Rory is really promoting a "dink them to death 😂" strategy, but rather encouraging the "selective use of power" at the proper times. There is definitely a time and a place for powerful shots, but there are many many situations where blasting the ball is a very poor tactical decision. 4.5 to 5.0 plus players will really punish those poor decisions (they can even read when the opponent is about to make them, sometimes even before the point starts - based on previous tendencies 😅)
@elliottfletcher4830 I don't dispute that well-rounded players must understand when to be offensive, defensive, or neutral. I just disagree with Rory's assertion that the "correct" way to play is to stay soft ( 3rd shot drop, then patiently dink, dink, dink, dink) only speeding up when someone leaves an attakable ball. He equates "high level" play with long rallies and looks down on "smash ball". However, many top pros are all about the fast power game, (drives, crashing, and attacking), the points are quick and agressive with heavy top spin...people have different styles of play and its fine.
@@Vanessa-pe2xs I agree with Rory that patience is the better option and allows players to advance to higher levels of play. You just don’t see the “banging“ style in levels 5.0 and above. Discipline will always beat sheer power in the long run. It requires hours of practice and drilling, but it’s worth it.
I see a couple people saying this is 4.0+. I’d have to disagree. I’d say it’s closer to 3.75. I believe in a 4.0 tournament these guys would get crushed.
@@_johndillon A general comment, but if one doesn't know the skill definitions of the levels they shouldn't comment about player levels. These are definitely higher 4.0 based on the official definitions. These are closer to 4.5 since they're playing 4.0 gold medal and their demonstrated skills. Given the amount of sandbagging (if you want to call it that) in tournaments. It doesn't take long, if it isn't squashed very early on by the tournament officials, for 4.0 tournaments to be populated by 4.5s, 3.5 polluted with 4.0s and so on across the board.
I agree with you Rory that pickleball is much more enjoyable, intriguing, and challenging when playing opponents that understand the game better and have more variation, nuance, and unpredictability to their games. There are so many ways to win points in this great game, defeating bangers becomes less interesting (fulfilling) as you advance past the 4.5 level.
Thanks for your reply. The problem is, nowadays, it's very difficult to find games that are played like pickleball is meant to be played. I do find them occasionally.
I totally agree with your point of view. I am only 3.6 currently,, but enjoy playing against AND with 4.0 and 4.0+ . More variety of shots. You can actually get a rhythm going. When you play against or with lower levels, it's crazy town. If your partner drives everything- you cannot get to the net that easily, and at lower levels those drives have zero topspin and hit the back fence anyway. I have played numerous games and NO dinks were had. You can reset their drives and instead of dinking they make an ill advised speed up at you which ends up in the net. And if someone just wants to play that way and never advance or learn new shots, then that's fine, but they will get destroyed against better players
Unfortunately, that is very true. Glad to know you are 3.6. Keep working and I'm sure, soon, you'll be 4.0. Thanks for watching.
Ive gone in phases on my game. For a long time I wanted to play the soft game, then there was a period of time I liked the power game. Now I just realize to be a good pickleball player you have to be competent with both styles. Dont forget your resets and dont forget offensive lobs.
I'm starting to work more lobs into my game. Thanks for watching.
Another great one Rory! I follow the rule of not speeding up twice in a row. It helped my game tremendously! Coming from baseball background so I’m trying not to be a banger. My awareness has gotten so much better from that one rule.
Awesome! Thanks for watching.
This looks higher than 4.0 just at first watch. These guys are really good. The lefties serve is sooo good.
They are! Thanks for watching.
I honestly enjoy both? Learning pretty quickly, would probably place myself around 3.75. If someone hands me a put away, it's very satisfying to do so, but outplaying someone at a soft game is great too. Especially if you're playing against someone who doesn't really have much of a soft game. Just yesterday I had someone on the other team hit a really high pop-up that barely cleared the net; I acted like I was going to smash it into powder, so they both backed up and then I just kind of barely tapped it over the net instead 😂
Like I understand that *technically* that's strategically bad and I should be keeping them back but dammit sometimes it's fun to make people run, lol
It is! Be careful though. A lot of young players can get to that ball. Thanks for watching.
I love a good dink rally *as a player*, when my head's all the way into it, but frankly as a spectator I believe it can be a bit dull. My favorite in either scenario is a game that's very dink-oriented but also has some variety in the form of speedups, resets, maybe even an offensive lob or some power-ball when one side's forced off the line. Nothing excites me like a great save, and there are relatively few of those in a pure dinking game.
The problem I have with bangers is not that they're wrong or even that it's not a fun way to play, but more that if you have a mix of dinkers and bangers only the bangers are having fun unless the dinkers are *significantly* better. It seems selfish, basically. When I play with folks weaker than myself, I forego the power shots. Instead, I focus on accuracy by sending back slower balls that make people stretch a bit ... and it works. Many times, other players have commented on how much fun some of those rallies are, and they don't even know why because I don't tell them that's what I'm doing. People love those long rallies, whether it's all dinking or something else.
Thanks for your reply. Interesting you say some players have fun and they don't know why!
I loved this game , thank you so much
You're welcome! Thanks for watching.
I think this is maybe higher than 4.0. There is plenty of offense in this game. Not sure why you would consider this a finesse game. There is a bit inconsistency though with the drives. I would have liked to see less cross court dinking action. They should try to aggressively move the opponent around and get them off balance instead of hitting to the same spot. It is a fallacy to believe that the soft game rules at advanced levels. It is true one must have good soft skills at higher levels however there are many pros that prefer attacking pickleball - ALW , Gabe Tadio that come to mind. As paddle technology advances you will see people gravitate towards the power game since both grit and power has increased, it is becoming easier and easier to control topspin. In my area I know of only one advanced finesse player at the 4.5-5.0 level. Everyone else has switched to power or balanced attack/defense as the main weapon while retaining their soft skills. While dinking and dropping still exists it is a means to an end to force a ball that can be attacked. Those who insist on the slow game as king are being left behind and unable to keep up with the new wave of pickleball players. The reason is that while every soft shot is returnable not every attacking shot is. And if you are hitting your drives out that is a technique problem, not a problem with the shot itself.
4.5 and 5 don’t give free points like that this is a 4 game
@@williamroberts2734 Everyone messes up sometimes. Its just the frequency of it. Even Ben Johns will hit a bad shot from time to time. I think it was sufficiently low but everyone has their own opinion.
I play mainly with senior players here in western NY, can only think of a couple who are at or near 4.0. I enjoy the game when played at a varied pace, but I am in the minority here.
Yes, that's pretty typical. Thanks for commenting and thanks for watching.
Exactly. Most the people I play with hit the ball as hard as they can.
That's mostly the case at lower level play. And, I think that's too bad. Thanks for watching.
Yes, at the 3-4 skill level the “blasters” have the advantage and don’t feel they need to develop a soft game to win
I see that often. Thanks for watching.
i think they hit it to the lefty cuz he wasnt very aggressive about speeding the ball up. they know if they dink reasonably they wont get attacked whereas the righty was attacking and speeding the ball up more often and wining that way.
Nice observation! Thanks for watching.
So many missed serves and returns. Guess it must be nerves? A good drill is to play a game where both teams start at 7. If you don’t win when you have game point at 10 you drop back to 7. Good for practicing closing a game.
Never thought of doing that.
Do you have videos breaking down your own gameplay so we can learn from you?
Thanks for asking. I'm playing in a tournament soon and hope to post a couple.
I agree that pickleball should be played like these players. I am getting tired playing these days after a year later because most players in our club and those I meet at the park just want to play mini tennis smash game instead of taking time to learn how to do drops and court positions
Unfortunately, that could be where the game is going. Especially with the more powerful paddles. I really hope they reel the power in. Thanks for watching.
Very good game!
Thanks! I think so. Thanks for watching.
I love this style of play. I would like to send you a video of mine and have you assess it. Would that be possible?
I'd be happy to. The only way I can do it is if you have a UA-cam channel and you send me a link to the video. Thanks.
I am that person with ADD and think dinking/soft game is boring :).. And I too agree I would get destroyed by these people because of it lol
Got any footage where someone was a beast at lobbing at a 4.0 level?
I don't. I just don't see it very often at the 4.0 level. I am, however, starting to incorporate it more into my game. Thanks for watching.
So pickleball has a weird dynamic in which some players want the point to last as long as possible. Every other sport you want the point to end as quickly as possible so long as you are winning the point. Because it is more efficient. Long points in pickleball happen when both sides are equally skilled and respect each others counters and neither side has a clear advantage. Close games are always more exciting. In this video the moment an opponent has an opportunity to put away the ball they try to do so. The problem in lower level games falls under 2 categories. 1. A player gives a popup or attackable shot and the point is over due to lack of skill. 2. They pass up attackable shots because either they don't have the skill to attack or dink the ball back because they believe "thats the way the game should be played" but completely miss the point of a dink or drop. I dislike the concept of how people believe the game of pickleball should be played in any specific way. Pickleball is a sport and whichever strategy wins most consistently is the "correct" way, which may depend on skill level and opponents. If you are a 3.0 or 3.5 level player most likely the best way to win points is by banging away, At higher levels you can still bang away but only at the shots that make sense. And this is what you see in this video. I will 100 percent change my play style depending on the level of my opponent and whether I respect their blocks/counters.
I understand what you're saying. I just think the slower, softer game is more fun to play. Unfortunately, finding those games to play in is becoming more and more difficult. Thanks for watching.
@@pickleballpick-apart9787 I think this is why after awhile pickleball players will break off into their own groups to play the style of game they want to play.
You don't give Jackies slice with the rediculous backsping on it any credit. More than once when the opposing team tried to return it and hit it into the net, you just said "they missed it", when in fact it was a seriously aggressive shot.
Well, most upper level players have no issue returning a slice serve. Thanks for pointing that out.
Eye protection is so important - glad you mentioned it. I was thinking they might be like 3.75 or something due to the sheer number of unforced errors, though.
Good point. Unforced errors usually determine the winner and loser.
Jacky, your paddle sounds kind of "poppy" compared to others. Delaminated possibly?
I could be wrong on this very easily, just wondering
John😂
Great game!
Thanks for asking. Maybe he'll answer.
Power games are great, until you meet an opponent who resets the ball into the kitchen consistently. At that point, patience, finesse, and reading the ball for the chance to speed up play become power hitter's greatest issue.
Thanks for watching.
This looked a lot like some of the better games (top 2 courts) of my 3.5 - 4.0 league. Great game. I did not see a lot of dinking between the players sticking to mostly cross-court. But all good players not lobbing.
--- I am always surprised when I see courts that do not have any fence or net barriers between the courts; seems really weird to spend the money to build nice courts like these and not put in something between them to keep balls from rolling through. I see a lot of that missing on this channel but essentially all the courts have them here in MN that I have seen - indoor and outdoor. Just odd to me.
No courts that I have ever played on are individually fenced off. Most do have barriers that are movable and are about three feet high. Thanks for watching.
test
I got it.
I enjoy most of your videos, but to say a particular style is the proper way to play is just wrong. If you are out to just get some movement/exercise maybe, but the point of playing a sport is to win, regardless of "how" you play.
You can play any which way you prefer. I prefer to play a slower game. I seek them out. Maybe it's because I am better playing against players who play similar to me, whereas, I'm probably not as good playing against bangers.
@@pickleballpick-apart9787 Fair enough. I think there is a time and place for all types of play.....plus its more fun to hit it hard. I havent been playing long, maybe a year, patients and 3rd shot are not my strong points.
@@brianreynolds-u5x once you get around to it the most fun (and the most audience and opponent acclaimed) shot is the soft perfectly placed one that noone can get to. or the offspeed swing and a miss. Jus' sayin' !
This style may be good but for the majority it's boring if everyone play like this. There would no point of watching different player if there's one style. I have a feeling the Asians watching this and laugh because they will take over like ping pong.
Maybe so
This was good play, but I think you're very stuck on "finesse" as being the "proper" way to play. The power game is just as legitimate. Maybe it's an age thing (not you in particular)... but some older players refuse to accept change. They are stuck in a one-way mindset and have zero flexibility thus, they're left behind.
I do try to incorporate some power into my game, however you are right. I am older and I prefer finesse. I do understand the game is going to more power. I feel like when I play younger players. LOL!
@pickleballpick-apart9787 What I mean is you repeatedly mention finesse as "the way pickleball ought to be played". New people may not understand that this is just your personal preference and not actually a fact. Power is not an inferior way to play its just a different style...to each their own.
@@Vanessa-pe2xs I don't think Rory is really promoting a "dink them to death 😂" strategy, but rather encouraging the "selective use of power" at the proper times. There is definitely a time and a place for powerful shots, but there are many many situations where blasting the ball is a very poor tactical decision. 4.5 to 5.0 plus players will really punish those poor decisions (they can even read when the opponent is about to make them, sometimes even before the point starts - based on previous tendencies 😅)
@elliottfletcher4830 I don't dispute that well-rounded players must understand when to be offensive, defensive, or neutral. I just disagree with Rory's assertion that the "correct" way to play is to stay soft ( 3rd shot drop, then patiently dink, dink, dink, dink) only speeding up when someone leaves an attakable ball. He equates "high level" play with long rallies and looks down on "smash ball". However, many top pros are all about the fast power game, (drives, crashing, and attacking), the points are quick and agressive with heavy top spin...people have different styles of play and its fine.
@@Vanessa-pe2xs I agree with Rory that patience is the better option and allows players to advance to higher levels of play. You just don’t see the “banging“ style in levels 5.0 and above. Discipline will always beat sheer power in the long run. It requires hours of practice and drilling, but it’s worth it.
I see a couple people saying this is 4.0+. I’d have to disagree. I’d say it’s closer to 3.75. I believe in a 4.0 tournament these guys would get crushed.
Thanks for watching and thanks for your opinion.
If you look in the top left where the scoreboard is, it says gold medal. So I’m assuming this is the finals of a tournament.
@@DYTTriggeryou’re correct. I did a little research and it is a 4.0 tournament gold medal match. I just assumed 4.0 would make less mistakes.
@@_johndillon
A general comment, but if one doesn't know the skill definitions of the levels they shouldn't comment about player levels. These are definitely higher 4.0 based on the official definitions. These are closer to 4.5 since they're playing 4.0 gold medal and their demonstrated skills. Given the amount of sandbagging (if you want to call it that) in tournaments. It doesn't take long, if it isn't squashed very early on by the tournament officials, for 4.0 tournaments to be populated by 4.5s, 3.5 polluted with 4.0s and so on across the board.