8 bit Oscilloscopes BITE! But, are they good enough? We compare to 12 bit Oscilloscope
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- Опубліковано 4 тра 2023
- In this video '8 bit Oscilliscopes BITE! But, are they good enough? We compare an 8 bit Oscilloscope to an 12 bit Oscilloscope. #OWON, #INSTEK, #GWINSTEK, #PICOSCOPE, #MICSIG
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Thanks for the tutorial Eddie. You make things so much easier to understand. I would have loved to have a teacher like you when I was still a young lad many, many years ago.
Thanks so much! I appreciate you!
Nice informative video. I learned something today. Thank you for making it.
Thanks so much!!
Hi Eddie, thank you so much for the awesome tutoring. 😁
Thanks so much!
The 8 bit pun in the title is good.
Thank you!!
I have to agree. I didn't know Eduardo had it in him.
So you're saying it's more than a bit funny? 😢
@@KissAnalog the slew rate is a nibble above and a nibble below wha. I'm gonna get you to do me a favor if you don't mind. I'll text ya this weekend. Won't take ya more than a few mins.
Haha 😂😂😂😂
I love this channel!
I have just received new scope three hours ago. 12-bit Owon XDS2102A. First impressions are good. It seems to be well built and display is great. I think 12-14-bit Owons are using Analog Devices HMCAD1520 A/D converter (500u List Price $97.00). 8-bit Owons are using HMCAD1511 (500u List Price $53.76). I also think that some Picos are using these ADCs as well.
Thank you for your feedback. Let us know how you like it. It seems like a great scope to me.
I bought my Owon about 3 years ago because it has 12 bit vertical resolution. Most of what I do is audio, and the 12 bit makes for much better resolution. If all a person does is digital, then 8 bit is fine, but for those that do analog, we want higher resolution.
How have you liked your OWON? I think it’s a great scope, but the only thing that doesn’t work as Great is the FFT
@@KissAnalog You are right about the FFT being a bit underwhelming, but everything else I love. Mine is the 100MHz version, so it is only 12 bit (still 16X the resolution of an 8 bit scope). I think yours must be the 200MHz version, which come in 14 bit. Thats a whopping 64 times the resolution of an 8 bit scope. I dont know why most manufactures still limit their scopes to 8 bit. I only paid about $550 for mine, so its not like it costs a lot to implement more vertical resolution.
@@ronshaw80 OWON XDS3202A:
Rise time (at input,Typical):
8 bits mode ≤ 1.75 ns
12 bits mode ≤ 2.33 ns
14 bits mode ≤ 17.5 ns
The Micsig scopes are used in the Australian Telco industry, cheers Eddie.
Thanks for the feedback! That’s really cool!
Depending on slew rate you could measure crossover distortion but not hear it. Jat said that so I tested it and credit to him. I took his word (personal feelings aside) because he knows his stuff but I wanted to see it. Dpi in the display has alot to do with the price. It's why you see the bigger screen because when the dpi is high then a graphical representation of the noise is more accurate.
I think that depends on how much - but any crossover distortion is easy to get rid of and should not be in your signal. JAT talks about the crossover distortion he hears from his Class A/B amps that have too much - so that’s why I say that they should not have any crossover distortion in a Class A/B design. Technically - a well designed class A/B amp has no crossover distortion.
@Kiss Analog yeah I agree. I've been going back and learning the math. I started with ttl theory first way back when because it made sense because my software degree. The theory is so God damn interesting at the circuit level it's like there's always a new rabbit hole to go down. I've never gotten bored of this hobby like I have with others. I'm still looking into that other thing. My buddy streams in 4k so I'm going to draw up a whole signal chain and give ya links to various setups. Should be this week sometime. I want to know for myself so expect a text with flow charts haha
If the 14bit scopes had a good FFT, it would be great. That would give us 72Db of dynamic range. Great fo audio analysis. Looking at the specs on the XDS3202A, the 14 bits is for bandwidth of 20MHz and below. So I imagine they are getting 14bits not directly, but by oversampling and averaging.
Those tek scopes are still fast as heck and punch way above a cheap siglent. My tektronix tds2002c is the best scope I've ever had other than my new one but I trust the tek measurements more.
I know you love your Tek, but my friend - it does not match the scopes that I showed in this video, or for that matter the Siglent;) Sorry, but I got to keep it real. Compare the specs, the Tek is only 8 bit but that ranks with many scopes today, but for a digital scope it does not have any deep memory (2.5k point record length is very old school). Also the FFT is limited in points collected (2k points compared to 1M for all these other scopes shown). The 5.7 inch screen is also small and poor resolution (probably 640 x 480 but it is hard to find as it is so bad). Had to set the record straight for those that are reading these comments. I’d take any of these scopes over these Teks, even the new ones unless they cost over $2k.
Isn't it a bit of "horses for courses" ? IIRC there are audio ADCs that sample at 24 bits or even more. But the sample rate max's out around 380ish ksa/sec. Even PC sound cards do 16 bits but at even lower sample rates.
So the user needs to chiose the right tool for that job. That said, I'm all for making 10 bits the new standard for GP O-scopes. Where do I sign the petition? 😅
Thanks! As you point out ADCs have come a long way and high bit counts are being used everywhere. It's about time oscilloscopes move up from the old 8 bit to 10 bit or more;)
Nice explanation and comparison, sir. I have been working on 20MHz NMR spectrometer developing for many years and in the end I find out it's almost all about math. You can easily fit a smal portion of points and get very nice line on the screen. Another question is how about very small superimposed AC signals over very high DC values. Here more bits means a lot. A big trade-off is also that for more vertical bits you need much more computing power, so the sampling rate must be lowered or window narrowed . I'm sure there will be still 8 bit scopes on the market for many years, but maybe not for audio. About 50 years ago HP released audio network analyser 3561 with 13 bit vertical resolution. It was a real beast in that time ;). All the best!
Thanks for your feedback!
I love digitals, can't wait to save for the 12-bit Rigol. But I still have a nostalgia and still ion many ways love the Tek analog scopes!
I know what you mean - but as soon as you start using these new awesome digital scopes - you will never want to go back;) I recommend you look at my reviews of the Picoscopes - they are hands down the best for the money.
@@KissAnalog I have and use a Rigol 1054, but I still hate the lack of knobs and switches etc.!
I just saw Rigol came out with 12 bit… I have long thought about owon, but looks cheap to me. I bought GW Instek few years back on your recommendation. It has been great, but for audio, which is my use, I would love to have at least 12 bits.
Yes they did. I think all manufacturers will be doing 10 or 12 bit soon. I really like the Pico because of their software always improving and has all so many digital bus decoding that comes with as well as the ARB generator. I don't like that Rigol and Siglent charge for every feature that you want to add.
This pico has differential inputs and comes with diff probes with 12 bit vertical resolution. It has become one of my favorite scopes.
I thought about the gw as well but my budget didn't allow me to get the one I wanted so I got the rigol mso5074 and unlocked it. I made the mistake of buying their logic probes when I could've saved a fortune and got a reverse engineered set for a quarter of the price and bought another linear power supply with a high voltage output. I can't complain about my siglent spd3303x-e as far as siglent goes. I'd never buy off them again though. Do you have that blue hantek current probe with bnc Eddie? I want to get it but I haven't seen a good review of it.
Hopefully I win a keysight scope in one of their give aways. Haha
@@KissAnalog I’ll have to take a closer look at the pico
That would have only 256 steps per sample (8bit), compared to say a 10-bit ADC internal which would be multiples. 1024 steps for a 10-bit. Quite a difference for sure.
Yes - let's make all new scope 10 bit or more;)
The more bits the better. But...
From the display output my impression is the software is artificially enhancing the plot more than the additional two or four bits would.
A 10 bit output should have the same jagged display but with four times smaller steps than the 8 bit. However the trace looks interpolated in most of the shots.
The 12 and higher bits resolution are difficult to compare if the smallest scale is still 10mv/div. The higher resolution is useful but smoothing out the trace should be a user defined option
Thanks for your feedback. It is also interesting how the 8-bit scopes handle a bit differently. Like the Instek scope has that ringing between steps - which I think is strange.
When you showed the Pico scope, I saw that you're a fellow Mac user. That's reassuring. I had read that some people were unhappy with version 7 and wanted to go back to v6. Are you on an Apple Silicon Mac or Intel? Also, I've love to hear what your "go to scope" is these days. Should everybody move to the USB style PICO, or are there still big advantages in using a traditional scope? THANKS!
Great question! I am still on an i5, but would love to move up to the new silicon;) I like the version 7 and use it on the Mac. But I have used V6 on Windows using Parallels.
If you want 14 bits vertical capture, you need the Owon SDS3204A and not E (not the same price... one is around 400 $ for 8 bits, the other is around 2000 $ to 14 bits).
I like your videos, it is fine. Thank you for that
PS: i can think about a metaphoric analogy to describe what's important in a oscilloscope... you can compare to a sight binocular zoom clarity and aperture technically to be the depth details you can hope to rich, but quality of lenses is something more and all the price is there... you can not really explain the way people can understand 100% what is it clearly (words not enough), but when you let them look inside a Leica binocular and after that any other cheap one, same zoom (aven same aperture), difference is huge in clear day time, but it is absolutely killer in night or dirty weather time: in the Leica, you still can see perfectly what you want to see, but not in any other one cheap sight binoculars. That is what you also are talking about with signal quality of oscilloscope.
Thanks so much!! I do like the Owon and have done a video review on that - please see the link at the end of this reply. I agree with you - 14 bits is amazing and will spoil you;) I also like the PicoScope at a similiar price;) ua-cam.com/video/_bYCnCIAVKI/v-deo.html
Rigol DHO800 & DHO900 series looks promising
They sure do. I am following them to see how they turn out.
More than promising! :)
8 bits is fine for things like signal checks and troubleshooting most digital circuits. If you want to do Audio Analysis I recommend 12 or higher. Have you ever heard of Virtins Technology? I just found them online. They say their scopes go up to 16bit. For the price it's hard to believe. USB scopes seem the way to go. You get way more for the money since you aren't paying for the cost of a display.
Thanks Tron! I agree with you. Digital work only requires a high/low so 8 bits is great. Audio or other analog low noise signals - 12 bit would be fantastic! I think all scopes should move to 10 bit by this day and age. Most engineers don't think about it and just accept the 8 bit.
Hello. What do you think about the Owon 3204AE vs the newer 12 bit models released by Siglent (for example the SDS824x HD)? Is it still worth considering if found for around the same price?
I think the Owon is fantastic and goes unnoticed. I will have to do that comparison very soon. Thank you!
would reducing the sample rate on the Micsig reduce the blocking? is it a case of oversampleing? Love your videos. I have learned a lot from you . Thanks
Thanks for the great question! Actually I was trying to improve the blocking by increasing the horizontal sample rate to try to make the blocks look smaller. It only gets worse if the sample rate is not high enough. This blocking matches the vertical resolution of any 8 bit scope so it is because this Micsig is as good as it is that makes it easier to see. Thanks so much for being part of our team;)
@@KissAnalog ty . keep the great videos coming. I love your style of video and appreciate how thorough you are. I got that Micsig because of your content.
10 bits for us all! I do prefer my 14 bit for RF work!
Yes let’s get 10 bits;) Which scope do you use for RF? The OWON?
I think the sine at gwinstek is sin/x interpolation. Try it in dot mode
Yes you are correct but all scopes were compared the same way.
The best
Thanks!
16:35 sin interpolation :)
LOL Thanks!
ua-cam.com/video/GKo5egHpGs0/v-deo.html On the Owon, does the Sinx/x or Linear interpolation bottom menu option make any different to the ADC steps?
Great question! I did all scopes in Sinx/x so to see the same comparison!
What about the Rigol DHO814 which is 12 bit
Great question! They said that they would send me on loan last year - but now there's on return to my emails. I think they are selling enough of them that they don't care to support my channel. Oh well - when this channel gets big - let's see how that works for them;)
on the GW its interpolating the measurements to get the "detail"
Thanks. Yes, all scopes have to interpolate between data measurements - and that is why the more data points that you take the better;)
28:55 as you increase the bit resolution, you can see the samples per second dropping rapidly. What is happening is your ADC is still 8 bits; that's what it is, but you are *supersampling* 12 bits is really each measurement sampled 16 times and then averaged to become a single 12 bit sample. In order to take 16 samples at 1 gigasample per second, the effective sample rate is thus 62.5 megasamples per second for 12 bit effective vertical resolution.
For supersampling to work, there needs to be noise in the Least Significant Bit; dithering in other words. If the input was perfectly clean and no noise exists in the scope, all 16 samples would be identical and you'd be right back to 8 bit staircasing despite supersampling. It is the presence of noise that permits, say, 4 of the 16 bit samples to be a "1" and 12 of those samples to be a "0" with the result that this sample is 1/4 of a bit.
ENOB: Effective Number Of Bits.
www.keysight.com/blogs/tech/bench/2019/06/17/oscilloscope-adc-bits-and-enob
EDIT: Having just checked data sheets, it seems some ADC's do this internally.
www.analog.com/en/products/hmcad1520.html#product-overview
Higher bit depth ADC's simply take longer to decide what exactly is the input voltage.
Thanks! Great feedback! Yes that is why I love the PicoScope 4444 which has 12 bit hardware.
@@KissAnalog I love the differential inputs on the PicoScope. That's HUGE.
yeah something didnt seem right, not sure i understood your explanation, but more bits should show more roughness right? if i zoom in on a smooth piece of plastic i see all its roughness, but here more bits seemed to have lost the detail (smoothed things out)
500 m/s at 12 bit , 100m/s at 14 bit ......... : / the bandwidth ? !!!(it' s important ) 8 bit is always good ^^ A SDS2XXX Plus at 10bit stay at 2.00GS/S & 500ps/div . Tanks for all of your videos & tutorials
Great point - thanks for bringing that up. It is still great bandwidth for Audio;) Its nice that the Pico lets you change the vertical resolution to your needs;)
Dam wish i could afford scopes like that.. price is too high here in Philippines
Sorry they are too expensive! Great to hear from our friends in the Philippines!
@@KissAnalog its okay, 😁
Btw keep posting more i love your videos
I just looked up the Tek 2430A. Is 1024-point record length correct? YIKES!
Thanks - without deep memory digitalis are not the same:)
@@KissAnalog In the 80s, my main reason for wanting a digital scope was to store single-shot events.
I think people are mistaking graticule density over word size in some cases. I thought you returned the owon? Haha
Yes I returned my OWON, but this is a newer one with better firmware. Graticule density is usually far better than the resolution of the measurement. The older scopes don’t have the great resolution of scopes of today or the last 5 years or so.
@Kiss Analog my old tektronix is great. That's an exception to the rule though I think haha
👍
QUICK-WITTED kiss Analog
Tutorial great very helpful video thank you very much for sharing your knowledge with us. Take care and have a great weekend with all your family around you
QUICK-WITTED kiss Analog
From Nick Ayivor from London England UK 🇬🇧 ⏰️ 21:54pm
Thanks so much!