Subs vs. Dubs: Puella Magi Madoka Magica
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- Опубліковано 30 вер 2024
- Puella Magi Madoka Magica is one of the most influential anime series of the modern day. But how does a viewer's experience with this inventive masterpiece change depending on whether they're watching the sub or the dub? Find out here!
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![Sayaka's Motives in Rebellion [Puella Magi Madoka Magica - REBELLION]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/FFjCVobHrcA/mqdefault.jpg)
It's nice when you can see the Subs vs. Dubs argument not as 'which is better' but as 'how are we seeing the story from a different perspective during one or the other'! Thanks for this video, especially pushing through some of the rough headspace while making it!
I have to wonder if these thematic differences substantially effects how the English and Japanese fanbases later responded to Rebellion. It is far easier to understand in the Japanese why Homura decided that Madoka wouldn't have made the choices that she did if she wasn't forced into it. That makes her slightly less of a villain. But in English it feels very much like Homura has defied Madoka's agency.
@@1buszybudy13 She does ask what Madoka wants. At the end of the series. Madoka tells her that she would be fine with her fate. By rebellion we learn that she doesn't know if Madoka lied to her at the end of the series because Madoka is supposed to be put in a fate worse than death as to how the rules of magic are supposed to work. After Madoka tells her her fate would suck in the flower scene in Rebellion Homura decides to save her from her fate worse than death.
@@1buszybudy13 Rewrote this comment for errors that make it more clear.
Homura asks about Madoka's fate and whether she is okay with it one time. At the end of the series. She leaves the series correctly doubting the authenticity of Madoka's statements since that isnt supposed to be how magic works but completely respects her wishes and doesn't ask again until Madoka reveals she would fucking hate that fate unprompted beyond the fact she learns Homura wouldn't take that fate very well... You know the implied reason she lied to Homura in the first place.
The flower scene doesn't have Homu ask about Madoka's fate but have Homura express her concerns about how she has had to deal with Madoka's fate because she thinks her previous memories were wrong in some way. And it would be appropriate for Homura to double check anyway because she reasonably believes her acceptance was coerced. Even though Homura is heavily implied to think Madoka lied to her she never asks Madoka in the flower scene because of an array of contrivances from being in the witches barrier and cause she doubts her memories. She isn't even sure the previous timelines ever existed so she just talks about how she dealt with her memories.
Madoka revealed that she would think her fate would suck in response to Homura mentioning it passing. The only questions Homura asks Madoka are follow-up ones when Madoka says she wouldn't take that fate because it would suck confirming she lied to her.
I choose to believe no one actually watches the dub, so that can't be it.
Nah, I watched it in Japanese and still felt Homura was a villain defying Madoka's free will. Translation aside, it was pretty obviously framed that way with Homura's crazy eyes at the end as Madoka seems to becoming aware that there is somewhere else she should be.
I watched it in English, and it made perfect sense to me. Between the conversation in the flower field convincing her that Madoka was unhappy with how things had ended up and the fact that Kyubey outright admitted that he was never going to stop setting traps for Madoka, it makes sense for Homura to do something that solved both problems, even if it was something she was going to hate herself for afterward.
Seeing this difference in Madoka's freedom was interesting. I've never watched the dub version only the sub one many times and this opened my eyes as it was said " the connotation in the sublime is that Madoka is more of a vessel of change than a real agent"
Madoka didn't have completely freedom of choice, she never had and that's what she pleads to Homura to change ! For her to stop her before doing that stupid decision, and in the end of the series becoming a God was not her CHOICE it was a CONSEQUENCE. Homura cries that she is going to be forgotten and dissapear and Madoka only accepts this to " I'm fine I'm okay with this"
I never truly understood Homura's action in rebellion, to me she only wanted to keep Kyuubey away from Madoka and that was the only choice but after watching this. IT'S WAY MORE DEEPER, in the better ending, when she becomes God, Homura still failed for not giving Madoka freedom, that's what she only wants she doesn't care that everybody may die, if everything was gone but Madoka was free that would be perfect for her. Keeping Madoka oblivious to her God state and letting her live her past life was giving her a " False" freedom because she still failed nontheless and deep down she knows it
The anime ( sub one) is pretty much Homura dealing with the consequences over and over again while trying her best to not have Madoka deal with it, and that's what she wants in the sub version. That was what her plead to Homura intended : For her to stop her first choice to become a magical girl
I'm confused, you're framing Homura taking away her choice as a good thing...?
@@theMoporter because that was what Madoka asked her to do " Stop her from making her wish/ to not let her become a magical girl" and her becoming a magical girl was a choice she made and that she regretted so she was asking homura to take her choice away. And that is THE choice of the whole anime, which makes Madoka do basically nothing until the end
Then everything became so complicated that by Madokas final wish to save everyone took away her freedom
@@theMoporter I mean, it kinda is? While still stuck in Homura's labyrinth, Madoka herself told Homura that she wouldn't want to be far away from the people she love and she wouldn't have the strength to do it, which gives Homura confirmation that what she's doing is just because Madoka never wanted to be a God
THIS I’m so mad about how the English speaking fandom seems to misunderstand Homura’s choice when the entire show is about how Magical Girls are manipulated into their destinies!!! Like, have they never heard of coerced consent before?!! So yeah, I just love the complexity of Homura’s choice, of wondering if Madoka was truly okay with becoming God or just groomed into the role, and I can’t wait for the movie to wrap this up!! The way you’ve described it’s like the Great Gatsby, with Gatsby trying to reach back into the past, the green light. And then on top of that, the entire original show is Homura preventing Madoka from making a choice forcibly with time travel until she inevitably makes one, and in Rebellion, it’s Homura taking away that choice, so there’s that added layer of Homura’s also coercing Madoka’s choice. But those things don’t make Homura completely a villain 😡😡😡! It just makes her choices more complex, the devil imagery is more about her mental state and symmetry, it’s not meant to portray her as randomly switching to evil!! It’s like how Evangelion uses Christian imagery-inaccurately but for aesthetic/thematic reasons.
Anyways, I hope they get a happy ending 😭😭😭 but knowing this show it’ll be bittersweet
Describing magical girl anime prior to Madoka Magica as “bubbly and brightly colored vehicles for selling toys to kids” is a bit dismissive of shows like Revolutionary Girl Utena and Princess Tutu (or even magical girl anime in general), but also it was probably a joke and your description of magical girl anime post Madoka Magica was pretty apt. I love ur work btw, I haven’t finished the video yet but it’s thorough and entertaining!
Right smh. Magical Girl animes have always been dark and existential- honestly I WISH all magical girl animes prior to MM was just made to sell toys, do you know how hard it is to find toys of RGU and PTT that aren't thousand of dollars? Or at ALL?
I'd kill for an Utena and Anthy doll or action figure.
Even sailor moon had some dark moments in it.
@@apoc9ify - Especially if you read the original manga... Takeuchi really liked to draw nightmarish faces haha
@@apoc9ify Sailor Moon had a lot of dark moments in it. The Senshi die twice, and are batten, bruised and bloody more times than I can count.
It sounds like me like exaggeration for comedic effect. They did not literally go from toy commercial to I want to die all the time, but they did get noticeably darker
I think it certainly seems like it says something on English's, especially American preference for individual freedom vs the Japanese's deference to social expectations.
I like this series. It's cool to see how small things change the entire meaning of a work. That's partially why I used to try and watch both the subs and the dubs. Especially for older shows, they tell two completely different stories
The differences go from little details to ghost stories.
I love madokas voice in Japanese, it’s so…normal. Indecisive and passive, rather than an average “cutesy anime protagonist”
It's interesting how these differences seem to reflect the change in intended audience. (considering how, if I'm remembering correctly, PMMM was dubbed by an American company)
It's also worth noting the grammatical usage of the passive voice is different in English and Japanese. I remember having it drilled into my head in English classes that using passive voice is poor writing. In Japanese, however, using the passive voice (or, really, form of verbs) is completely normal and grammatically necessary.
I think this is the result of different language structures; using active voice in English often involves moving the verb to earlier in the sentence, while in Japanese the verb always comes at the end. It could also have something to due with how Japanese sentences don't require including the subject while an English sentence is incomprehensible without a subject. I don't know, this is all just speculation but I think it's interesting.
And to add a finer point as I think it's also the difference between American culture and Japanese culture. Cause in American culture we usually tend to focus more on individuality while in Japanese culture it's more about what you can do for the metaphorical village,I think. I watch a lot of shows that talk about this on UA-cam so I'm hoping I'm not completely talking out my butt.
Passive voice doesnt necessarily change the order of subject-verb-object, as much as it defines the agent of change/action clear, and usually also earlier in the sentence because of extra modifier words (A ' is being' verbed 'by' B).
It isnt poor writing to utilize passive voice. Passive voice is the best way to emphasize particular things such as an actor having power, control, influence, or otherwise some type of priority over your typical subject. Public school writing tends to be unclear and vague, so cutting passive voice is the easiest short-term fix, and something that isn't really addressed until grad school or when authoring works. Most of the classics that have stuck around rely on passive voice quite a lot.
@@Jack-ni2qs Yeah, it really bothered me in writing class when the teacher said things like "don't use passive voice" or "always write in the present tense". Language has all this beautiful variety and we're supposed to purposefully avoid it? Fuck that.
@@kindredspirit9703Year old comment, but Ima reply anyway lol
Yeah, whenever people boil things down to "never do this," and "always do that," its dumb, reductive, and harms creative expression. I think active voice versus passive voice should be decided with intention, and can be used with great effect to convey/enhance ideas and themes, as with anything else in writing. The better one understands how their given language functions, the better they can utilize it to tell their story.
16:53 I would appreciate a video on Sayaka's sub vs dub differences, she's had some of the most substantial growth in the series and her role in Rebellion is an interesting talking point given her potential influence in the next movie, as well as whatever is going on in the Wraith arc manga. Loved the video
I feel like the cultures of the West vs. Japan may also play into this. Western cultures, ESPECIALLY America, are pretty individualistic. It's Our Life, Our Dreams, What We Want, and that's what matters and what is pushed as important. Japan, meanwhile, is far more collectivist. You do things for the good of the community; you sacrifice what you want and need in the short term to make sure that everyone else is okay in the long term, because everyone else will make sure you're okay when you need help. The sense of duty in the sub vs the localization changes made in the dub to Madoka's agency and decisions really feel like that subconsciously reared its head.
We also get it drilled into our heads to avoid using passive voice in English/writing class (which is why sci majors butt heads with English teachers so often) meanwhile Japanese is all about choosing the correct flavor of passive voice outside of particularly bold statements.
Also even little linguistic details like subject-verb-object order and whether you even need to include the subject at all.
Except a lot of Japanese people are known to not help at all in certain situations to avoid standing out and being seen as the odd one out. And a lot of American people are known to help someone in need out of their own free will.
That's maybe a little simplistic a lens, here. Madoka isn't sacrificing anything because she knows it's reciprocal - it can never be reciprocated, and it's well beyond paying back society. Madoka's ascension is framed more as Buddhist, specifically, aa a Mahayama bodhisattva assisting others in their enlightenment.
@@theMoporter Admittedly, I wasn't being very complex; I just remember things I've seen regarding Persona 5's characterization and the collectivist culture came up a lot with some similar character struggles. It might not be a perfect comparison, but there's merit in looking at the sociological influences on language!
@@ToastyMozart Interesting that you mentioned "sci" majors, which I'm assuming is referring to science, having conflict with English teachers. I hadn't thought about it, but it makes some sense. English teachers naturally tend to push active voice to convey agency. Science on the other hand doesn't really concern itself with agency. Science is simply describing what is. There's no agency because nothing is "doing" something to something else, everything just happens as it shall. This also probably plays into how deterministic the laws of physics are, to the point where some scientists and philosophers question whether or not free will even exists due to the laws of physics not really having room for a free agent.
I also remember being taught to avoid "to be" and "to have" phrases, which could be related to the concept as despite being in the "active voice" they don't convey anything happening, only the current state.
I noticed that these changes generally align with the predominant attitudes of their respective cultures. JMadoka's arc focuses more on duty much like the more collectivist culture of Japan as a whole, while EMadoka's arc focuses more on self-actualization for her own sake much like the more individualist culture of North America. The changes are minor enough that you're likely going to come away with the same interpretation regardless of which you watch, but it's interesting to see the different versions push slightly more in their corresponding directions.
When I first clicked on the video, I was expecting more of a mention of the unorthodox usage of English honorifics. Yes, English has honorifics. They're usually called titles. While much of the familiar dialog uses language more in-line with standard English, a few characters, most notably Homura, continue to address others in a manner more akin to the Japanese version. "Miss Kaname" rather than the expected "Madoka." I think this was a really interesting decision because of the important scene in Episode 10 where Homura uses Madoka's first name for the first time. The scene wouldn't have nearly as much of an impact if Homura spoke like a normal English-speaker, so the localizers took the risk of maintaining her speech patterns even if it would come off as unnatural to an English-speaking audience.
There's a really really REALLY good series of videos on madoka magica by clearandsweet here on youtube for anyone who's interested on a more indeep analysis of the show. He goes over every single scene of the show analisying not only how the internal elements of the story interact with one another, but also how they relate to the history of the magical girl genre, as well as the references it has to classic literature and religion. I cannot recommend it enough. A warning though, all the videos are like 1 hour long.
Video url?
@@davidarvingumazon5024 truly iconic! ua-cam.com/play/PLrHHYqiUeuDPq5RPoyMInaBZ9idSL75SA.html
This is interesting - the sub's focus on responsibility and commitment despite reluctance versus the dub's focus on personal desire despite uncertainty makes me wonder about how interpretations of Rebellion differ as a result of what you've seen. I'd assume dub-watchers are *extra* oppositional to Homura's actions there.
As one of those dub-watchers, I agree. The undermining of Madoka's decision and negation of her sacrifice hits especially hard.
Oh I want to murder Homura for the shit she pulled BEFORE Rebellion. She legit ruined countless lives and destroyed countless worlds(she does nor revert time, she escapes to other worlds) all in the name of a single person. In fact: One of Madoka's causes of death is Oriko Mikuni, who only does what she does because of Homura's own actions. Rebellion just lets me laugh at her because she proved her worst enemy right, she *was* just some idiot who became eviler than a mass murderer for a singular person.
@@Amy-yq4lkfor me as a sub watcher, I’m the exact opposite! Watching Madoka always felt like a girl making the best choices she had to work with, like “local child works 60 hour 7 days a week to save orphans from orphan crushing machine.”
Like, it’s good that she did that, but maybe she wouldn’t have to do that if the orphan crushing machine didn’t force her hand? Obviously in the show, the orphan crushing machine is necessary to prevent entropy, but Rebellion felt like Homura snapped and was like “I’m no longer dealing with this farce. It IS NOT inspirational that we’ve forced a child to work 70 hour work weeks to save other children. It is not proof of her selfless and powerful agency. Madoka will take a break and that is FINAL, no matter how much guilt she feels at not working to save the orphans! I’ll just wipe her memory so she won’t feel bad!”
This obviously is a temporary measure that does not address entropy, nor does it address the true problem that entropy requires a system that crushes orphans, which is the reason Madoka feels forced into working 80 hour work weeks, but it at least addresses the fact that there’s no “consent” under the orphan crushing system, only a child making do with coerced choices.
Now that’s not to say that Madoka’s choice was not inspiring or hopeful. She still made the most with what she had, incremental change for the better that felt impossible, but what I liked about the original show is that it didn’t go the Shonen route of “dattebayo, believe it” you-can-do-anything energy. A lot of guys talk about Fight Club with reverence because it gave voice to this general dissatisfaction that a lot of men have, of feeling entitled to being world shakers that can do anything, only to find out they’re mediocre. But in TV shows and movies growing up, that’s all they saw-Shonen boys who can do anything if they put their mind to it.
Madoka, on the other hand, gives a much more accurate look into what it’s like growing up to be a girl. Feeling meek and passive and like you can do nothing to change things, the despair that comes with that, but the hope of trying anyway. Even when she becomes god, she’s not literally becoming all powerful, but making a small change to ease the emotional burdens of others, just on a wider scale than usual.
If people were annoyed at Madoka for being passive during the show, I do not get them at all, because I feel like she perfectly captures what it’s like to be a girl in those situations, where you’re told that you have to be meek, that you’re not strong enough to be a fighter, etc. So yeah, the idea that the hope of her sacrifice would be lessened by the fact that it’s so depressing, that she’s being coerced just makes no sense to me because that’s what I liked in the first place! She was doing it in spite of the circumstances, like all of us do in real life, especially women in a patriarchal society
@allyli1718 agreed! Couldn't have said it better
Explanation Point's critical analysis is almost as engrossing as watching the constant devolution into surrealism of his collages
HE BACK AND STRONGER THEN EVER!!
I have a point relating to Sayaka’s translation that I find interesting. Not so much the dub vs sub as it is the sub vs the (obviously awkward) literal translation. Sayaka’s last words in the sub are “I was stupid, so stupid.” Her last words in Japanese more accurately translate to “I am a fool.” While the former one sounds way better as a translated line it also completely changes the meaning of what Sayaka is saying.
Sayaka obsesses over being this idealized version of herself mostly because of her inner feelings that she is somehow underserving of her good life. The first ever time we see her monologuing to herself, and thus the first time we see her take off her mask and expose her real self, she ends the scene by saying, “I’m such a disgusting person.” because she had realized she might have selfish intentions behind healing her boy toy. She spends most of the story with that quiet view of herself, as someone lesser and undeserving. She’s obsessed with being the ideal magical girl because she is obsessed with becoming something more than what’s she sees herself as. Then it all blows up in her face, mostly due to her unwillingness to adjust her ideals because doing so would mean giving up on the version of herself she believes is worthy. Think about how fast she gave up on Kyousuke when she realized she wasn’t human anymore. She doesn’t believe she is worthy of the love she receives unless she is her idea of perfect.
So, back to those lines. She has lost everything and it is (genuinely) her fault. This is the moment she becomes a witch, which we know means a moment of profound and total despair. In the English dub she says “I *was* stupid.” which implies some ah ha moment where she has seen that she has done wrong and has learned from it. Compare that to “I am a fool.” While that line reads awkwardly what it is saying is heartbreaking. Sayaka has always looked down at the person she was and tried to be something better. That attempt failed, and in her mind, every terrible things she’s ever thought about herself was just proven correct. That version of the line is an admission, as far as Sayaka believes it, that she was a fool to ever think she could be something more, someone worth love. In that moment of complete despair, she becomes a witch.
Great new video! Another Magica video would be fun. I always appreciate the sub vs dub comparison since it shows the thematic nuances of writing in a very direct way 😁
I respect that a lot of these changes are super subtle, too. You wouldn't catch them if not for deeper analysis. Localization and translation is Hard, and then the actors have to match that with lip flaps? Good on the dub for trying to be as faithful to the sub as it could!
So basically DUB Madoka is "What's I want to do?" contrast with SUB Madoka to "What's I should do?" Truthfully, I prefer the DUB Madoka.
Me too. Same with E-Deku for that matter.
I guess us Americans just prefer our heroes to be go-getters.
I don't really see that version as being very interesting. Madoka's want is the same at the start and at the end - she wants to prevent or lessen the suffering of others. She wants to be a magical girl at the start, she wants to be a magical girl at the end. If it was all about what she wants, then the series would be about her deciding what the wish should be, rather than whether she should make a wish in the first place.
It's better to characterise the conflict as whether Madoka will stand up for what she wants, in spite of Kyubey, Homura, and others all telling her to do what will benefit them the most.
Pretty tight video. You touched on themes that went over my head when I got into the story. Thanks for the hard work.
Haven't watched PMMM since I was a teenager. I remember liking it for the edgy reasons of it being a dark version of magical girl anime.
Now I'm aware there's so many other seasons and other timelines explored in movies and other material I have no idea what happened in the series.
I mean I remember seeing some canon material where the time traveling one fights Walpurgisnacht, which is only mentioned in the anime, and other where she... fuses with it? Idk it's a sort of Dark/Witch version of Homura... Oh hey I remembered her name.
The Rebellion movie is a direct sequel and probably what you are thinking of with the fusion (not what happens though). It also has its own sequel movie in production.
There's a loosely canon manga, Wraith Arc, that takes place betwee the series and Rebellion.
There's also a spinoff alt timeline anime, Magia Record, which features the original characters sometimes.
Past that everything is AU manga/games. Oriko Magica (which has two spinoffs of its own), Suzune Magica, Kazumi Magica, and Different Story for manga, MM Portable and Battle Pentagram for games plus the gacha game Magia Record is based on which is drastically different from the anime.
nice good to see a video from you. hope your stuff with your meds is going better and you're feeling a bit better..
Madoka I think has some themeing around the value of a good support system in a young girls life and how Madoka taking her time deciding whether she wants in on Kyubei's racket instead of impulsively choosing a vapid wish was a value as much. as a criticism of Madoka. Like Madoka is basically the only girl we see who's parents seem to actively take an interest in her life and offers her support and advice.
People bigged this anime up as this brutal deconstructive anime and when I watched it I thought the wholesome supportive relationship Madoka had with her mom was just nice and really wholesome because young girls are often thrown into a society with a lot of predatory people with zero guidance and Madoka even lacking confidence and being timid was able to subvert the predatory nature of Kyubei's deal.
That’s really interesting. I never noticed that
Your last paragraph is slaps, but the whole thing with Kyubey being exploitative and predatory is that a lot of magical girl series have the girls making that kind of choice/sacrifice without guidance. It's a deconstruction because it's like "hey, maybe cute mascot characters thrusting burdens onto children and asking them to keep it a secret is a pretty messed-up plot for children's TV".
Good to see you back at it!
I will say, even though I agree with the conclusion, some of the changes are small enough that it's hard for me to say there's *really* anything there.
With the ribbon for instance, that could be read as a clarification that the question was self-directed in the English, and in both cases it really *was* her trying to make a decision, even if the phrasing does carry some weight there.
Similar thing with the Kyuubey line. She is trying to become *something* but she doesn't care if it's a God. vs. She truly intends to become *something* but she doesn't care if it's a God. Intending vs. Trying is *potentially* a significant difference, but not necessarily.
Like intent *does* imply agency, not but necessarily want, whereas trying generally implies both.
If I agree to pay someone else's debt, I do *intend* to pay it, for sure, but it sounds a bit awkward to say I'm *trying* to pay it, even if that is still literally true.
Now a choice of words that would *really* make that read air tight would be something like "Are you *expecting* to become a god" or something similar. An expectation doesn't even imply agency, it just implies being present.
Explanation Point‽
It's important to note how common it is for people speaking English as a second language to slip into using odd passive voicing for things people who are native speakers would not opt to use passive voice for. I'm not really sure where that comes from, but it happens even in Romance language speakers even though they aren't particularly less individualistic than English speakers.
I remember: Madoka dubbed is an adaptation, and both Madokas work well in their own ways.
I would love you to compare the subs and dubs of Steins;Gate. Which to me is the opposite of this, completely different. The main character is a different character altogether. And yet it still works well in its own way.
I'm gonna be honest. I know sub & dub are were different, but I enjoy seeing how big those changes matter to how a story can be interpreted.
"Made the choice not to choose" is one of the most paradoxical phrases to ever exist
"If you choose not to decide you still have made a choice."
Upon re-watching this video I think the sub and dub do a good job of showing the difference between Western and Eastern views. With most Eastern countries taking a collectivist approach to society(what you do doesn't just effect you but effects others) while the west is very individualist (do what you want, regardless of what others want)
You missed the most important parts: the dub is much more lesbian than the sub. Whether it be Kyoko's death internal monologue, Sayaka telling Kyoko she came back from the dead because she missed her (Rebellion movie), or (also Rebellion) Homura just straight up admitting what she feels toward Madoka is love. Those lines are handled slightly differently in the sub, to the point it's worth mentioning. For instance, the scene I mentioned about Sayaka and Kyoko. Sub: "I came back because I did have one regret: the fact that I left you behind." vs dub "But I realized I did have one regret: You. I missed... you." (despite quotation marks, not exact quotes. Just based on my memory of the scene).
And I am only half joking about this being important enough to bring up.
Also, my Japanese is far from fluent, but from what I was taught, English sentence structure is often active while the Japanese sentence structure is generally more passive and the more passive, the more formal and polite. These changes might just be due to the sentence structure that the viewer is more comfortable with (active voice structure being casual and preferred in English but possibly rude or disrespectful in Japanese), but I can see how these can make huge differences or even become unfaithful translations. I think some of these might be inevitable no matter which anime is dubbed though.
I love how cool to see difference between subs and dubs it makes it so interesting to watch for viewing experience.
Thank you for this analysis. In a weird way, I think I understand the ending of Rebellion a little better now. Since the beginning, poor Madoka hasn't been an agent in her own life as much as I thought she was.
Still, I hope that Gentaro Urobuchi continues the story!
This video makes a very solid point for the importance of proper translation and localization. The differences in the dub come from an era more concerned with localization in dubbing than accurate translation. Refer to Funimation's dubs from this era for proof. In my case, I've been very interested in these differences ever since my linguistic journey with Japanese began 7 long years ago, and I've lived in and out of Japan for all of that time. When I saw the second opening to Ranking of Kings, I took an entire day to properly translate it as the official translation is far too concerned with being "accurate" to the original Japanese, not realizing that in order TO be accurate to the Japanese original, words that do not exist in that language, such as personal pronouns, have to be added so that the words actually make sense to an English viewer. To ensure accuracy in what words are added in dubbing OR subbing, whenever I am given the task I go out of my way to read the source material (in RoK's case the Japanese manga) take into account what is and what will be happening in the show, read interviews with the staff so that I can be sure none of their intent is lost in translation, and always keep in mind the philosophy of the story itself according to itself, not according to what I think it should be. In order for dubs vs subs to become a lesser argument of intent and rather become an argument of which one has better acting (because no, the Japanese acting is NOT always better and I WILL fight you on that, Haibane Renmei has horrible acting in Japanese for one example) this kind of thinking is necassary in order for anime to be better enjoyed and more accessible to everyone who wants to see it. Not accessible in terms of content, but of language. There is a difference between accurate and "word-for-word" translation between English and Japanese because they are on opposite ends of the linguistic spectrum, and because you don't speak Japanese you were able to pin point exactly what all of us in translation endlessly wonder: do the changes we make in localization actually matter? And if so, to what extent do they effect our audiences perception of what is being said? Thank you for answering that question definitively in this video, especially when discussing the difference between passive line delivery in the case of Mami's "you have been chosen by Kyubei" line. I will do everything iny power to share this with those in the industry who still foolishly believe that this is an unimportant topic, and my hope is that going forward we can make the issue of misinterpretation on the part of us translators vanish completely.
The work you put into this video was not wasted on me, and I greatly appreciate it.
Best of luck to you moving forward sir.
My favorite line in Madoka Dub: For a cake?
My least favorite line in Madoka dub: What are you talking about? 100 meters?
I suppose it's appropriate that these are both questions
So happy to see a new video!!
What's great a out the differences is that as the show is about time loops and such, you could see them as different loops almost
Missed you Dr. Point, glad to see you on UA-cam again 💛
Just found this channel & subscribed! Perfect timing!
“The effect madoka had on magical girl series that went from bubbly-“ REVOLUTIONARY GIRL 1996 came out in 1997 😭! It’s like saying code geass made mecha gritty
Heck, the BRS ova existed before Madoka, which basically has Witch Labyrinths before Madoka was announced.
This looks like the same continuity level as a 4Kids dub.
"everyday all i can think about is dyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyinggggg 🙄🙄"
as an ardent lover of translation: I don't understand your attitude at all.
such differences feel to me like a failing on the part of translators and very little more, however inevitable they may be.
Explanation point! I just found the chapter you voiced in the worm audiobook! It was great. Also loved this episode the bandit Keith bandannas still kill me
i would love a sayaka video. i felt a lot of connection towards her when i watched it almost 10 years ago, and i would love the analysis as i only watched it subbed because that’s what was abailable
WOOOO YEAAAAA BABY!!!!!!! THAT'S WHAT WE'VE BEEN WAITING FOR! THAT'S WHAT IT'S ALL ABOUT!!! WHO HOOO!!!
Hey dude can you do Sword art online abridged….
Again
I know you said you’re comparing the sub and dub, and not including the og Japanese dub, but there are a couple of notes about it for the first two examples you gave.
In JP, Madoka does say “I wonder which ribbon I should wear”, but also with a bit more of a nod to outside help in her tone than E-Madoka.
With Sayaka, she just said “Mama ga-“ with no specifications on things like her mom making her do anything.
The rest is pretty spot-on, particularly with Kyubey.
Become Meguca.
No meduka
@@duke86fan No, she was already Madooka. Then she became Magooka.
“When I took these notes, I was not in a good headspace” Mami wish she had ANY headspace 😢
Over a decade later and we’re still debating this beautiful series. God I’m hyped for the Rebellion sequel.
Praise be to the Transcendent One, and glory to the Blessed Lady.
The consistency here suggests to me that it was intentional on the translation writing team, which means one thing...
They split the timeline between the sub and the dub!
Ok, I JUST FINISHED THIS ANIME PLEASE-
Also you just saw that Disney plus JP is streaming MIA?
explanation point: *returns*
The people: *much rejoicing*
Damn. You still exist?
Can you talk about Kaitou Joker?
I love watching videos that explain media explicitly because it reminds me I am too stupid to pick up on themes by myself cause my only thought when watching the show was “I wish I was a magical girl”.
This was somehow one of the three most influential anime series for my childhood, and to this day I have only ever watched the series ONCE almost a decade ago. Been trying to figure out how to rewatch the series from the start again since.
Madoka magica is a magical girl show with a great english dub that has the vocal level of a hack dub but the dialogue of a faithful dub.
Can’t wait to come back to this once I’ve finally seen the show
Sort of unrelated but the italian dub of this series is excellent and for some odd reason it found its way on Nico nico douga (something akin to japanese youtube) and spawned a peculiar, yet short lived wave of videos, MADs and so on featuring it
0:42
OH NO, HE'S A MINECRAFT STREAMER
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yk, since mostly every single one is a . . . ****
Very interesting video. It's been a hot minute since I watched Madoka Magica, and only in sub. Always like these videos.
I literally love this anime so much and just seeing this video in my subscription box absolutely sent me
Like damn I feel like I summoned this because literally a day ago I was like
Man I wanna see more Madoka Magica content lol
Great analysis but I do wish you included the jp clips and eng. separately. The tone is executed differently and effects the interpretation a lot imo!
Any new Madoka Magica video gets an A+ for me. Maybe for the next topic you can compare the themes of choice and following though on those choices between Madoka and one of its main narrative inspirations, Kamen Rider Ryuki. And why Madoka succeeds where Shinji Kido utterly fails.
EXIT STAGE UP???? How dare you make me laugh at something so horrifying. How dare you surpass meduca meguca with one line. I am suffering.
This video made me realize how important active and passive roles are in this show. Making a wish is an active action; it's a decision, one that will definitely change your life forever. Madoka is understandably hesitant to make a decision because she is shown to be much less decisive than her friends/family members, especially Sayaka, who immediately, in one of her first lines in the show, loudly declares her decision that she now believes Madoka is trying to change her image, and Junko (Mamadoka), who also makes a decision that affects Madoka as one of the first things she does. But in the alternate timelines where Madoka does become a magical girl, despite these influences existing in her life making her indecisive, Madoka decides on becoming a magical girl anyway and ultimately dies because of it. I noticed that in these timelines, Madoka, despite having to work hard and risk a lot, is happy to be fighting and also quite good in it. She is happy in her active role that she chose and even satisfied dying to fulfill her role in timeline 1. She only becomes unhappy when it becomes clear in later timelines that there is no active role and the whole thing is a scheme to exploit teenage girls for energy. When Madoka asks Homura to go back and keep her from making her decision to become a magical girl, Madoka must think that her inability to make a decision in the beginning is still better than making a wrong decision, even if it goes against her playing an active role in her own life. This obviously confirms what must be Homura's thoughts in the first timeline - Madoka was tricked into everything, she didn't want to die, she must be saved. Madoka disguises her giving up choice over her life as Homura going to save all of them, but Madoka should know that it sounds like "Hey Homura, i've been tricked into this and you love me, so please drive yourself insane trying to save me okay?". Even though in the end, Madoka is able to stop Kyubey's schemes because she regains her active role, it's only because Madoka unknowingly used Homura in a way to make it possible because Madoka couldn't live with the fact that the first huge active decision she ever made - becoming a magical girl - is one that gets her and others killed. Madoka rejects the possibility of her ever making a wrong decision by asking Homura to keep her in a passive role and, in the end, becoming a god that reverses every magical girls bad decision. It's okay with Madoka, because she'd rather be forgotten than having to face making decisions ever again. It's understandable that Homura is unsatisfied with this ending. Madoka asked her to remove her agency to protect her and than reclaimes her agency, providing what she thinks is a "good life" for Homura without considering how much Homura has already done to fulfill the wish Madoka has burdened her with. Madoka hates decisions so much that she keeps inventing the wildest ways of stopping them from happening, using the sacrifices of her friends in the process. Madoka should have accepted that her choice to become a magical girl leads to her death. It's not what she agreed on/imagined when making a wish of course, but it's a consequence of her action. It's fulfilling her active role. But then she ditches her responsibility and tasks Homura with finding a solution to her friends not dying a gruesome death. The roles of Homura and Madoka become reversed, and now Homura is protecting Madoka. It's exactly how Madoka wants it - someone else makes decisions for her again, keeping her from getting hurt by these decisions. I don't think Madoka is truly acknowledging this when she makes her final wish. Poor Homura bent over backwards to save her and Madoka only sees the other people in the world who suffer because of decisions, choosing to save them rather than apologizing to Homura who made all of this possible and destroyed herself in the process.
That being said, of course it's all an evil scheme. It's completely realistic for the girls to feel like their decisions need to be reversed, because it's the truth. That's what makes it so evil. They can't even die knowing they lived a good life and saved people because they turn into witches and start killing. It's the ultimate evil cycle. It's what drives both Madoka and Homura to do this. Kyubey is such an evil little shit
I would like to see the Sayaka notes please (on a video).
omg fr i've been waiting for so long
God, I never thought I'd learn anything nee about Madoka but here you are to prove me wrong.
Stellar work.
Here's a fun one: Madoka is actually about Buddhism.
Now I want to go back and listen to the sub again to see if I can understand the subtext of the Japanese dialogue vs the subtext that got translated in the subs... It's interesting to see that even the sub vs. dub translations can convey such different messages despite being NEARLY identical.
Thank you for the analysis, its an interesting shift in dynamic between languages, and may reflect on certain nuances that different cultures may have. Since dubs are never perfect 1:1 translations due to culture and language differences, I thought these changes were made to just fill lip-flap. But I'm quite surprised by how consistent these subtle changes are throughout different scenes.
I appreciate that you treat both versions of this show with the utmost respect, and not roasting one over the other. I think getting to watch different versions of the anime just broadens the watching experience for everyone, and you can decide which you prefer.
Also please continue this series! Madoka Magica is one of my favorite series and I'm interested to hear what you have about Sayaka.
Does Rebellion continue this dichotomy? It's been years since I watched it dubbed.
As someone that hates Rebellion, I'd love to see this, because I really don't want to watch it again for fun
But the most important reason to watch subs is so that you aren't constantly hearing people mispronounce "Madoka" as "Ma-dough-ka".
The ending is a wtf ending!
Excellent video! I would love to see that Sayaka Sub vs. Dub video if you're still planning on making it
This distinction makes me wonder about Homura's actions in Rebellion. I've only seen the dub so it comes off as Homura ignoring Madoka's choice for her own selfish reason. Potentially in the sub it could be Homura misinterprets Madoka's situation or desires and thus forces a happier alternative on her which she didn't ask for. Again I'm not sure I would like someone who has seen the Sub to enlighten me.
As a sub watcher, I think it's both. Homura is so used to knowing more than other people and terrible at explaining why they're misled, so she just decides everything by herself. In her mind, she knew what was best for Madoka and she refused to take her desires into account. During Rebellion, she comes to realise this is self-centred, but right at the last minute decides that being selfish and controlling is fine.
Imagine being told as a 15 year old that you wanting something so bad will DESTROY REALITY.
Holy shit you're still alive?!?!?!?! I was just watching your like 7 videos and wondering whatever happened to you
I don't like the dub. They sound dopey. And I know some people just sound like that but. That's just unfortunate for them.
One thing. Magical girl shows and shows like it have always been dark and bleak. That's all I wanted to say. Madoka just prompted a bunch of the same in a short time like isekai after SAO.
day 365.2425 of waiting for madoka magica 2
but all the sequel is that they say the same lines but add again after every sentence
This video reminded me that there still isn't an Oriko Magica anime. DAMN YOU SHAFT!
I'm a confused newb... Jay Sayaka? (6:21) I'm searching for information about one of Madoka's friends, Miki Sayaka.
The character looked like the character I've become able to recognize. And this was the first time hearing her, so that doesn't clarify.
Also, puella magi madoka magica, and, mahou shoujo madoka magica... Are they the same? Or closely related somehow?
As someone who's been learning Japanese for some time, I can confirm that passive voice is common in the language. But as one commenter said, for some reason using passive voice in English is considered poor. I see some translators change passive to active in order to avoid using it too much.
I started to watch more dubs ... Japanese dubs, because I'm getting increasingly annoyed with word choices in subs, but that is a different story.
Comparing English dub to subs without any reference to the original dub can easily lead to some misleading conclusions. There is no difference in the ribbon scene, because in the original phrase 「リボン、どっちかな」 both variants of translations are correct. This kind of question is used, when you think which option to choose. It has notion of uncertainty. It can be used as question to get opinion of someone else or as way of thinking aloud. In the second ribbon scene 「違うよ！これはママが」yet again both is true. She denies somewhat strongly the intention to change image and tries to say it was her mom's choice. She doesn't finish the sentence.
The third scene uses passive sentence, because Japanese uses that a lot. It's very natural to the language.
tbh, im happy that this shows dub was not destoryed,.. this is prob my fav english dub of all time, with a great cast in terms of voices and the themes both versions give...
but now i just picture in another timeline that MM was dubbed by 4 kids....
(Btw fun fact, morgana from p5 and kyubi are voiced by the same person..and now you cant look at morgana the same again! your welcome)
To bad the audio balancing of the English dub is completely fucked. Seriously I was planning to watch it originally and it just sounded awful. Not the voice work but everything else, it was all muted and weird where the Japanese version had such a vibrant soundscape.
In the beginning you said it was perfect but I have a disagreement. In the OP there is a frame with Madoka wearing kinky lingerie. That set off alarm bells immediately that this wouldn't be your run of the mill magical girl show and I think the whole show would be like 100 times better if it wasn't there. Maybe even 10000 times more. Thank you.
I find the interplay of culture affecting translation to be interesting here it seems. The more individualistic culture's language choices reflect the focus on the self while the more collectivistic culture's language focuses more on the duty imposed upon the self from external forces
OMG EXPLANATION POINT I MISSED YOU IDK IF YOU WERENT UPLOADING IN A WHILE OR IF I JUST MISSED YOU
tbh i like the sub VS dub debate not where people argue which is better, but which one tells which story. ngl the dub was a lot more... Dramatic to me I guess?? its probably why i preferred it (also because it had 3 of my favorite va's so im biased lol)
10:11 "Macron vs. Lepen 2022" made me laugh then cry
"gorgeous and imaginative visuals" until they do a wide shot with the characters
If nothing else, the dub gave us this glorious gem - in Episode 3, no less: ua-cam.com/video/bI9hgp32-f0/v-deo.html
Inb4 the copyright bots take down the video again
Amazing video, I would love to see one for Rebellion in the future!
Wait this this unrelated to the topic of the video but did you watch centaurworld?
I'm so glad "everydayyyy alll i can thiiiink aboout is _dyyyyyyyyyyiiiingggg_ " is back ☆
didn't leave my head the first time i heard it
We all know you only made this video so you could talk about your e-mommy.
*would hit subscribe button second and third time if he could*
UA-cam apparently refuses to give me notifications for channels that I have notifications turned on for. Ah well. Great vid!
hey! I just came from your elitism in Hero academia video! I am so so curious about your analysis of that one ouran scene!