Thanks for watching! We should use logic and physical laws as the basis for our stroke production-not opinions, whims, or "unique" theories. If you want a written summary of the main reasons you don't want to "whip your wrist," you can find that below. It's exclusively for my newsletter subscribers (The Fast 4), but it's free to join: beforeandaftertennis.beehiiv.com/p/bad-information-is-ruining-your-forehand-don-t-use-the-wrist-ff65
Hello. I am trying to present information in a way that will allow players to change their minds (but sometimes it is difficult). In my experience, if you give logical, rational explanations and then also provide video footage to along with it, players are more likely to buy in. But it can be challenging! Anyways, thanks for the comment and the support
Thanks for the comment! Paraphrasing Braden, “dimensions of the court and physical laws should dictate stroke production. No coach’s opinion or any unique theories.” Based on what we know actually happens at contact and how the court is shaped, I think we can create efficient groundstrokes. To be fair and completely transparent, in my younger years as a teaching pro , I was really uninformed. But I was lucky enough to meet some great coaches/educators
Thanks for video! I’ll raise a point, contact being just 5ms actually doesn’t defend the idea of hitting zone, because you can actually have lots of things happen through 100ms prior and after impact, if the 5ms of contact get right action and stringbed orientation. There’s the fact that around contact racquet head is always moving circularly: tip faster than the handle, low-to-high, side-to-side… and you aim to catch decent spot for before-to-after of those 5ms of impact. This cannot be a “train going straight” zone, it just has to be precise enough with margin for error to get desired outcome. And that’s why we practice, and beginners cannot stay even within those 19.4 degrees of angle… why even perfect technique player can miss it badly if suddenly using a racquet with unfamiliar balance. It’s because it’s fast and circular all the way through, and you need to time those 5ms to fall in the right spot. That said, there’s absolutely lost of reason to not make in even worse and inconsistent with wrist flopping and poorly applied “whipping”. Need to achieve high RHS by solid motion with reasonable degree of “angularity” through impact.
Thank you for the well-thought out and polite comment. Agree with you regarding the true path of the racket head, and not sure that we disagree on much. To clarify, I don't advocate to "train going straight" through the hitting zone. If a player is adequately swinging inside-out from the body, and they're getting great extension to the target, the strings will face the target for a little longer (and be within the 19.6 degrees referenced) than if they're hitting inefficiently.
the ball will go in the direction where strings are facing at contact no matter in which direction your racket goes , there is wrist change from lag position towards contact because you cant hold that 90 degree angle from the lag especially when hitting with your arm in a almost 45degree angle from baseline vieuw. only my opinion
@@BeforeandAfterTennis the swing is a circular motion ( not a straight line , which would make it much easier if it was to keep the strings longer towards target ) so that means you have to change your swingpath during your contact ( meaning you go from circular to straight to circular and all that at high speed ) just a question
I agree with you. I think there's a distinction here between what coaches (like the famous Patrick M.) say to get the result they want, vs what you ACTUALLY do. I think prompting the student to use the wrist is an effort to get them to loosen up and not be super tight. But I agree , actually wristing the ball is just no good.
Yes, that's why teaching is an art and a science! I think there are better ways to get players to loosen up that don't rely on telling them to "whip the wrist," and "release from the wrist."
Pro forehands contact the ball with arm fully extended with the racquet shoulder in front of the body and the non-dominant shoulder behind. Slight low to high angle swing angle and the racquet face is slightly closed.
Yes, the wrist should be stable just before, during and just after contact. Topspin comes from the swing path instead of wrist action. Power comes from letting the body's core (legs, hips and shoulders) lift and rotate up and into contact. There are tons of internet coaches discussing "lag and snap" and racket tip speed. Avoid them. Your wrist should be stable or at a minimum completely passive. This is true for topspin and slice forehands and backhands. On volleys, the wrist should be fixed and not move at all.
Nice video. My question would be why we see more and more pros use western grip and semi western is the most popular grip on tour? It would make more sense to use eastern grip as palm directly facing the ball thus easier to keep racket face pushing through contact zone. Thoughts?
Hello, this would require an in-depth discussion-perhaps a video. But quickly: 1) because of how they grew up hitting the ball from a young age (because technique isn't the only important thing). That being said, some of the greatest forehands were close to eastern-delpo, fed (who has a composite).
Thank you Mal. Great analysis of the forehand and wrist. From 1 to 10, with one being the lightest grip tension, how tightly should I grip the racquet at contact on the forehand?
Hey Mark, thanks for the comment and kind words. Re your question: how long is a piece of string? Jokes, aside, I encourage recreational players to have a stable hand at contact. For most players, if 10 is hanging on for dear life, then you want to be around a 5-7. But I'l give you a caveat: It's so hard to answer this question because everyone's grip strength is a little different in terms of how hard they can squeeze the grip.
I agree a long hitting zone is important. In that regard isn’t the tip to hit out in front a little tricky? Because more out in front you’re sort of running out of room to have a long hitting zone.
You're right that if you try to hit *way* out in front, then it's difficult to have a long hitting zone. Best would be to try to contact where Alcaraz and Nadal are-slightly in front of the hips (depending on what stance you are using). Thanks for the comment!
I argue this with another pro at my club. He will continue to tell people to "roll" their forehand 🙃. I teach to swing out. Racquet head goes from below the ball to over the ball.
"Roll your forehand" or "Roll your hand" doesn't work for me. Again, 1) because of how long the ball is actually in contact with the strings and 2) how narrow the tennis court! Thanks for your comment 👊🏾
In my experience, if you explain to players (and even other coaches), these two facts-that contact is only ~0.005 milliseconds, and that the court is only 19.6 degrees wide-they are usually open to changing their minds and their approach@@1988Allnatural
another interesting video...knowing about the 5ms issue, whats your opinion about the concept that is taught frequently, which is "brushing up on the ball, thus having the ball on the strings longer". Im now believing that this concept is bs. Getting "good" (for lack of a better word) topspin is more about racquet angle and the racquet head speed at time of contact --- or maybe I'm full of bs 🙂
I like it. Topspin is created by a racket head that moves from below the height of the ball and traveling upwards at the contact. String orientation and speed of racket head matters, too. But, some cues work to ingrain efficient technique, even though, in the strictest sense, they might not actually be true. That's why coaching is an art and a science!
@@BeforeandAfterTennis Thanks for the reply..perhaps for me I've taken the "Brush up" too literal, and have found trying to do that "just right" has caused me to cut the ball too thin and end up with shots with lots of top spin, but are weak and fall short.
You need to think about it through the lens of "compression" and "friction." These are terms I first heard from @jefflewistennis@@AB-xp8im . If you're getting too much friction, then the shot will be weak and too spinny... so you need more compression.
Western grips create a shorter hitting zone than easterns because there is less connection between the palm and the racket face. But, Swiatek is the best in the world! So technique is part of the puzzle but it's not the only part that counts. That's why we say there's no right or wrong way to hit, but from a technical perspective we talk purely about efficiency.
Hi, I've gotten a few of these questions about pulling and pushing. Can you please give me more details about what you mean? Are you talking about the feeling that you're getting... or?
I'm not here to knock your video or verify the validity of it. To put simply, all these words are overcomplicating a simple concept. Whether you are saying the right thing or not, you can't teach or upskill anyone with the information you have provided. It would simply cause someone to stick their hand out and keep the racquet facing where you want to go. The wrist concept is simply to let people know, the loose feeling so all power is transferred to the racquet.
Hello, thanks for the comment. It is nice to engage with someone who is not confrontational! Yes-agree! If you're doing a session with a player, you don't want to fill their head with all this information in one go because they will most likely be super confused with what they are trying to do. Where I disagree;: as a teacher, we should be able to explain difficult concepts in a way that young players/new players to the game will understand easily. Also, in my experience, if you layer in this information over many sessions, players respond well to it and appreciate that you are willing to share information with them and start to apply it. This is just a theoretical video where I'm discussing what happens at contact, how the court is shaped, and what players at a high-level are actually doing with their hands and wrists at before, during, and after contact.
@@BeforeandAfterTennis I can understand where you are coming from. However, I do not believe 99% of the audience would recall that throughout the growth and transformation. But if you have been fortunate enough to find that 1%. I applaud you, I have students where if you give numbers, would give them a headache😂
Why are you stating as if a fact? These are opinions. Its obvi many pros use wrist/forearm tremendously. Are you better than them? R u even ranked? It annoys me how everyone thinks they know more. Everyone wants to be a teacher. No one wants to be a humble student.
The video of Nadal and Carlos doesn’t lie. Other pros might use wrist but their forehand is nowhere near these two. There’s a slow motion of Federer on essential tennis that shows exactly same thing:no wrist or forearm rotation near and right after contact.
It is a fact, go watch videos of all the pros and watch what happens before contact, during contact, and after contact. You learn what part of your arm actually is used.
Hello, thanks for the comment. Do you mind explaining out what the opinions are? I've used sources to point out that the ball is only in contact with the strings for 0.005 seconds and the court is 19.6 degrees wide. These are verifiable facts. Then I've also shown footage of what Alcaraz and Nadal are doing before, during, and immediately after contact. While the wrist and forearm are included in the swing, this video addresses bad information on leading the stroke with the wrist and also uses a recreational player who is using related information to demonstrate what that looks like. I will leave your other as is.
This is funny becus its wrong. Interesting every time a smart and honest person get things this wrong! Let me give u a clue: If the laid back position is (almost) set in stone how come the ball hits the court when their hitting arms are basically pointing 45 degrees to the right (in relation to the net) at contact? Now work backwards and find out where u went wrong. :)
Thanks for watching! We should use logic and physical laws as the basis for our stroke production-not opinions, whims, or "unique" theories. If you want a written summary of the main reasons you don't want to "whip your wrist," you can find that below. It's exclusively for my newsletter subscribers (The Fast 4), but it's free to join: beforeandaftertennis.beehiiv.com/p/bad-information-is-ruining-your-forehand-don-t-use-the-wrist-ff65
You are correct, it’s funny how so many of the comments below think you are incorrect and aren’t realizing that they are the ones that are wrong 🤣
Hello. I am trying to present information in a way that will allow players to change their minds (but sometimes it is difficult). In my experience, if you give logical, rational explanations and then also provide video footage to along with it, players are more likely to buy in. But it can be challenging! Anyways, thanks for the comment and the support
Great video, and I totally agree. But it is crazy how much contradictory information I have got over my tennis lifetime from pros and from videos!
Thanks for the comment! Paraphrasing Braden, “dimensions of the court and physical laws should dictate stroke production. No coach’s opinion or any unique theories.” Based on what we know actually happens at contact and how the court is shaped, I think we can create efficient groundstrokes.
To be fair and completely transparent, in my younger years as a teaching pro , I was really uninformed. But I was lucky enough to meet some great coaches/educators
Degree is not a unit of if width
Hi, yes that's correct. However, the degree range I am referring to is what the racket face can do from the center of the court.@@gmnboss
Thanks for video! I’ll raise a point, contact being just 5ms actually doesn’t defend the idea of hitting zone, because you can actually have lots of things happen through 100ms prior and after impact, if the 5ms of contact get right action and stringbed orientation.
There’s the fact that around contact racquet head is always moving circularly: tip faster than the handle, low-to-high, side-to-side… and you aim to catch decent spot for before-to-after of those 5ms of impact. This cannot be a “train going straight” zone, it just has to be precise enough with margin for error to get desired outcome. And that’s why we practice, and beginners cannot stay even within those 19.4 degrees of angle… why even perfect technique player can miss it badly if suddenly using a racquet with unfamiliar balance. It’s because it’s fast and circular all the way through, and you need to time those 5ms to fall in the right spot.
That said, there’s absolutely lost of reason to not make in even worse and inconsistent with wrist flopping and poorly applied “whipping”. Need to achieve high RHS by solid motion with reasonable degree of “angularity” through impact.
Thank you for the well-thought out and polite comment.
Agree with you regarding the true path of the racket head, and not sure that we disagree on much. To clarify, I don't advocate to "train going straight" through the hitting zone. If a player is adequately swinging inside-out from the body, and they're getting great extension to the target, the strings will face the target for a little longer (and be within the 19.6 degrees referenced) than if they're hitting inefficiently.
the ball will go in the direction where strings are facing at contact no matter in which direction your racket goes , there is wrist change from lag position towards contact because you cant hold that 90 degree angle from the lag especially when hitting with your arm in a almost 45degree angle from baseline vieuw. only my opinion
Thank you for the comment. Yes, there is movement in the wrist. This video is addressing the input to lead the swing with the wrist etc.
@@BeforeandAfterTennis the swing is a circular motion ( not a straight line , which would make it much easier if it was to keep the strings longer towards target ) so that means you have to change your swingpath during your contact ( meaning you go from circular to straight to circular and all that at high speed ) just a question
I agree with you. I think there's a distinction here between what coaches (like the famous Patrick M.) say to get the result they want, vs what you ACTUALLY do. I think prompting the student to use the wrist is an effort to get them to loosen up and not be super tight. But I agree , actually wristing the ball is just no good.
Yes, that's why teaching is an art and a science! I think there are better ways to get players to loosen up that don't rely on telling them to "whip the wrist," and "release from the wrist."
just wanted to point out 5ms is written wrong - its not 0.005 milliseconds it would be rather 0.005s or 5ms (but not 0.005ms) - sorry catched my eye
Hey! You're absolutely correct. This is my formatting error. Thanks for picking it up (y)
Pro forehands contact the ball with arm fully extended with the racquet shoulder in front of the body and the non-dominant shoulder behind. Slight low to high angle swing angle and the racquet face is slightly closed.
false, it depends on the players for the extended arm
Hi James, there is some variety with how the arm is shaped when pro players are contacting the ball. There are very few absolutes.
Yes, the wrist should be stable just before, during and just after contact. Topspin comes from the swing path instead of wrist action. Power comes from letting the body's core (legs, hips and shoulders) lift and rotate up and into contact. There are tons of internet coaches discussing "lag and snap" and racket tip speed. Avoid them. Your wrist should be stable or at a minimum completely passive. This is true for topspin and slice forehands and backhands. On volleys, the wrist should be fixed and not move at all.
Holy moly, wish there was a way to super like a comment!
Nice video. My question would be why we see more and more pros use western grip and semi western is the most popular grip on tour? It would make more sense to use eastern grip as palm directly facing the ball thus easier to keep racket face pushing through contact zone. Thoughts?
@BeforeandAfterTennis
Hello, this would require an in-depth discussion-perhaps a video. But quickly: 1) because of how they grew up hitting the ball from a young age (because technique isn't the only important thing). That being said, some of the greatest forehands were close to eastern-delpo, fed (who has a composite).
Thank you Mal. Great analysis of the forehand and wrist. From 1 to 10, with one being the lightest grip tension, how tightly should I grip the racquet at contact on the forehand?
Hey Mark, thanks for the comment and kind words. Re your question: how long is a piece of string? Jokes, aside, I encourage recreational players to have a stable hand at contact. For most players, if 10 is hanging on for dear life, then you want to be around a 5-7. But I'l give you a caveat: It's so hard to answer this question because everyone's grip strength is a little different in terms of how hard they can squeeze the grip.
I agree a long hitting zone is important. In that regard isn’t the tip to hit out in front a little tricky? Because more out in front you’re sort of running out of room to have a long hitting zone.
You're right that if you try to hit *way* out in front, then it's difficult to have a long hitting zone. Best would be to try to contact where Alcaraz and Nadal are-slightly in front of the hips (depending on what stance you are using). Thanks for the comment!
I argue this with another pro at my club. He will continue to tell people to "roll" their forehand 🙃. I teach to swing out. Racquet head goes from below the ball to over the ball.
"Roll your forehand" or "Roll your hand" doesn't work for me. Again, 1) because of how long the ball is actually in contact with the strings and 2) how narrow the tennis court! Thanks for your comment 👊🏾
“Roll the wrist”… I’m in full agreement with your assessment of more time on the ball path.
In my experience, if you explain to players (and even other coaches), these two facts-that contact is only ~0.005 milliseconds, and that the court is only 19.6 degrees wide-they are usually open to changing their minds and their approach@@1988Allnatural
Excellent explanation
Helllo. Thank you. Glad it was helpful!
Excellent! 💯 love this lesson
Thanks for the comment and the support!
@@BeforeandAfterTennis 👍🙏
Excellent tutorial
Thank you! Cheers!
another interesting video...knowing about the 5ms issue, whats your opinion about the concept that is taught frequently, which is "brushing up on the ball, thus having the ball on the strings longer". Im now believing that this concept is bs. Getting "good" (for lack of a better word) topspin is more about racquet angle and the racquet head speed at time of contact --- or maybe I'm full of bs 🙂
I like it. Topspin is created by a racket head that moves from below the height of the ball and traveling upwards at the contact. String orientation and speed of racket head matters, too. But, some cues work to ingrain efficient technique, even though, in the strictest sense, they might not actually be true. That's why coaching is an art and a science!
@@BeforeandAfterTennis Thanks for the reply..perhaps for me I've taken the "Brush up" too literal, and have found trying to do that "just right" has caused me to cut the ball too thin and end up with shots with lots of top spin, but are weak and fall short.
You need to think about it through the lens of "compression" and "friction." These are terms I first heard from @jefflewistennis@@AB-xp8im . If you're getting too much friction, then the shot will be weak and too spinny... so you need more compression.
@@BeforeandAfterTennis yep..agreed! thanks!
Good luck@@AB-xp8im
@BeforeandAfterTennis graphic says 0.005 milliseconds. I believe you mean 5 milliseconds or 0.005 seconds
Hey, yes, thank you. You are correct. That is an error that I made. Thanks for pointing it out.
What about players with western grip like Iga? Thanks
Western grips create a shorter hitting zone than easterns because there is less connection between the palm and the racket face. But, Swiatek is the best in the world! So technique is part of the puzzle but it's not the only part that counts. That's why we say there's no right or wrong way to hit, but from a technical perspective we talk purely about efficiency.
Should it feel like you’re pulling the racket head through contact?
Hi, I've gotten a few of these questions about pulling and pushing. Can you please give me more details about what you mean? Are you talking about the feeling that you're getting... or?
The racket lags because you’re pulling the handle - does that feeling continue through contact?
I'm not here to knock your video or verify the validity of it. To put simply, all these words are overcomplicating a simple concept. Whether you are saying the right thing or not, you can't teach or upskill anyone with the information you have provided. It would simply cause someone to stick their hand out and keep the racquet facing where you want to go. The wrist concept is simply to let people know, the loose feeling so all power is transferred to the racquet.
Hello, thanks for the comment. It is nice to engage with someone who is not confrontational! Yes-agree! If you're doing a session with a player, you don't want to fill their head with all this information in one go because they will most likely be super confused with what they are trying to do.
Where I disagree;: as a teacher, we should be able to explain difficult concepts in a way that young players/new players to the game will understand easily. Also, in my experience, if you layer in this information over many sessions, players respond well to it and appreciate that you are willing to share information with them and start to apply it.
This is just a theoretical video where I'm discussing what happens at contact, how the court is shaped, and what players at a high-level are actually doing with their hands and wrists at before, during, and after contact.
@@BeforeandAfterTennis I can understand where you are coming from. However, I do not believe 99% of the audience would recall that throughout the growth and transformation. But if you have been fortunate enough to find that 1%. I applaud you, I have students where if you give numbers, would give them a headache😂
Interesting. I would say it's way higher than 1%. Depends how much information you give and when you give it!@@nowjustjon
Why are you stating as if a fact? These are opinions. Its obvi many pros use wrist/forearm tremendously. Are you better than them? R u even ranked? It annoys me how everyone thinks they know more. Everyone wants to be a teacher. No one wants to be a humble student.
Exactly! See my comment.
I agree 100%.
The video of Nadal and Carlos doesn’t lie. Other pros might use wrist but their forehand is nowhere near these two. There’s a slow motion of Federer on essential tennis that shows exactly same thing:no wrist or forearm rotation near and right after contact.
It is a fact, go watch videos of all the pros and watch what happens before contact, during contact, and after contact. You learn what part of your arm actually is used.
Hello, thanks for the comment. Do you mind explaining out what the opinions are? I've used sources to point out that the ball is only in contact with the strings for 0.005 seconds and the court is 19.6 degrees wide. These are verifiable facts. Then I've also shown footage of what Alcaraz and Nadal are doing before, during, and immediately after contact. While the wrist and forearm are included in the swing, this video addresses bad information on leading the stroke with the wrist and also uses a recreational player who is using related information to demonstrate what that looks like. I will leave your other as is.
This is bad advice! …. and so wrong! I hope whoever watches this video will use their own logic and reasoning.
Hello Lord Byron, thanks for the comment. Care to explain why what I've mentioned in the video is wrong?
This is funny becus its wrong. Interesting every time a smart and honest person get things this wrong! Let me give u a clue: If the laid back position is (almost) set in stone how come the ball hits the court when their hitting arms are basically pointing 45 degrees to the right (in relation to the net) at contact? Now work backwards and find out where u went wrong. :)
8:48 you’re probably one of those players in this part of the video 😂 watch more film and maybe you’ll learn to correct your false assumptions