0:00 Start 1:39 Some background to Professor Schubert's Baroque counterpoint book 4:05 What was the reaction to your Modal Counterpoint book and what motivated to write the 1st edition of your Baroque Counterpoint book? 7:41 Why did the Baroque counterpoint book go out of print? 10:46 When did you hear about partimento? 12:13 Bernardo Pasquini example lesson 15:26 Example lesson 7.P5 28:59 Example lesson 8.P1 39:44 Example lesson 10.9b (Handel) 47:10 Example lesson 10.P1 58:35 On not having to be a genius to learning fugues 1:00:05 How would someone have learned fugal writing 20-30 years ago? 1:01:45 Talking about Bernardo Pasquini 1:03:42 Talking about Handel 1:05:04 Talking about Fenaroli 1:06:01 Talking about Marpurg 1:07:50 Talking about Kirnberger 1:08:38 Unfigured Partimenti basses vs figured basses 1:10:33 On renaissance music theory still influencing Baroque practice 1:13:21 Can an adult learn how to compose, improvise, counterpoint or is it too late? 1:15:59 Professor John Mortensen's visit to McGill 1:16:33 What kind of music do you like to listen to for pleasure? 1:17:54 Revoicing drumming patterns as a form of counterpoint 1:19:03 Wrapping Up
This was pure joy to watch this interview, a gem. Of course now I want t more know about the subject, because you playing was a great fun and engaging. Thank you very much!
Thanks so much for doing this despite the small viewership. I knew about Prof Schubert's book for a while and even looked at it in the library at McGill where he teaches. However, I didn't know there was a new edition coming out, and it's even more affordable than the older edition! On side note, you seem to use the same Vivaldi that Jordan Peterson used/uses as an intro and outtro before he signed with Daily Wire.
Is the modal counterpoint book like a pre-req for the Baroque counterpoint book, or it's fine diving into the Baroque book? Enjoyed the example lesson in this one!
P. Schubert writes in the intro to Baroque Counterpoint; “life will be a bit easier if you study modal counterpoint because you will be in the habit of seeing how lines fit together, but it’s not essential”. Personally, I see that as this later counterpoint is essentially an outgrowth of the earlier, and shares the same foundation, the renaissance and medieval music deepens ones experience of this later music. I think also that the “way it works” is often a response to the earlier “way it worked”; after all, 18th century musicians cut their teeth on counterpoint books written in the 17th and 16th centuries.
I think the question whether an adult who missed out on childhood can still learn this requires some nuance. If you want to play 'like' they did in the 17th century you are out of luck, even if you were privileged to learn this from a young age, you won't have the actual living cultural support like they had back then. But that doesn't mean you can't use it in your own way. Even if you didn't have formal music training at a young age, you must have been exposed to music to some extent. Whatever language you adopted, is there. It might be a lot different than 17th century music, but that is good, we aren't living in the 17th century. I really think the greatest modern pitfall is this ideal of music elitism, as if music is only for the select few with 'the gift'. Music is a practice, anybody can do it, the point of music is not being the best in the world, it is 'doing' music. If you want to compose just go do it, there is no magical rite of passage or secret knowledge, you just make up music and the more you do it the better you get at it. And in terms of skill, I might even cast some doubt on the idea that we couldn't possibly compete with their level of complete musical immersion. It is true we don't have that kind of practice anymore, but we do have unprecedented amount of knowledge and music available at our fingertips. You listen to some high quality podcasts about music theory and history for a couple years while you workout or commute, and I would argue that you have a vastly superior music education than nearly anybody from the past. You can find streaming playlists with music from any time period, any region, where music was recorded in some fashion. So is it possible to gain the intuitive playing style of a 17th century composer, most likely not. But you will be able to create musical ideas that were never possible just a couple of decades ago based on the incredible amount of knowledge that is available to us. A piece such as Fur Elina from Arvo Part requires almost no technical skill to play, it is all an idea, which we can all create.
Thanks for the lengthy and insightful comment. I agree with a lot of what you have written and would like to contribute a few thoughts on several things. The first being musical "elitism". I have, at this point, much experience dealing with musicians at all different levels of experience, age and ability. I feel that musical excellence should be carefully cultivated, particularly in terms of preserving the classical tradition, not with a romantic idea of worshipping "the music" itself as many people act out in practice, but more because it's a good that edifies my fellow man and is good example as the practice of art in praise of God. The pursuit of music as a zero-sum game to establish "personal greatness" where we attack beginners (it's fine to encourage people to excellence) and have constant fear of our place in history, is romantic delusion and should be attacked. So it's perfectly good to venerate great artists and composers in history or in the modern day, as long as it does not go overboard when we see that as _the end_ itself.
0:00 Start
1:39 Some background to Professor Schubert's Baroque counterpoint book
4:05 What was the reaction to your Modal Counterpoint book and what motivated to write the 1st edition of your Baroque Counterpoint book?
7:41 Why did the Baroque counterpoint book go out of print?
10:46 When did you hear about partimento?
12:13 Bernardo Pasquini example lesson
15:26 Example lesson 7.P5
28:59 Example lesson 8.P1
39:44 Example lesson 10.9b (Handel)
47:10 Example lesson 10.P1
58:35 On not having to be a genius to learning fugues
1:00:05 How would someone have learned fugal writing 20-30 years ago?
1:01:45 Talking about Bernardo Pasquini
1:03:42 Talking about Handel
1:05:04 Talking about Fenaroli
1:06:01 Talking about Marpurg
1:07:50 Talking about Kirnberger
1:08:38 Unfigured Partimenti basses vs figured basses
1:10:33 On renaissance music theory still influencing Baroque practice
1:13:21 Can an adult learn how to compose, improvise, counterpoint or is it too late?
1:15:59 Professor John Mortensen's visit to McGill
1:16:33 What kind of music do you like to listen to for pleasure?
1:17:54 Revoicing drumming patterns as a form of counterpoint
1:19:03 Wrapping Up
This was pure joy to watch this interview, a gem. Of course now I want t more know about the subject, because you playing was a great fun and engaging. Thank you very much!
Thank you for a great show. Looking forward to his books!
Thanks so much for doing this despite the small viewership. I knew about Prof Schubert's book for a while and even looked at it in the library at McGill where he teaches. However, I didn't know there was a new edition coming out, and it's even more affordable than the older edition!
On side note, you seem to use the same Vivaldi that Jordan Peterson used/uses as an intro and outtro before he signed with Daily Wire.
43:00 - lovely story about Nadia Boulanger ❤
thanks!
love that Peter is turned on to modern music. There's a lot of great counterpoint going on. He would love Apex twin if he doesn't already!
Currently $1700 on Amazon, but am looking forward to buying it once it is back in print.
Why is his book on Baroque counterpoint still so expensive? I just checked on Amazon and it’s over $200!
Please provide the PDF of Peter Schubert's Baroque counterpoint book.
Unfortunately, It’s out of print but they will be reprinting it soon.
Is the modal counterpoint book like a pre-req for the Baroque counterpoint book, or it's fine diving into the Baroque book? Enjoyed the example lesson in this one!
P. Schubert writes in the intro to Baroque Counterpoint; “life will be a bit easier if you study modal counterpoint because you will be in the habit of seeing how lines fit together, but it’s not essential”. Personally, I see that as this later counterpoint is essentially an outgrowth of the earlier, and shares the same foundation, the renaissance and medieval music deepens ones experience of this later music. I think also that the “way it works” is often a response to the earlier “way it worked”; after all, 18th century musicians cut their teeth on counterpoint books written in the 17th and 16th centuries.
I think the question whether an adult who missed out on childhood can still learn this requires some nuance. If you want to play 'like' they did in the 17th century you are out of luck, even if you were privileged to learn this from a young age, you won't have the actual living cultural support like they had back then.
But that doesn't mean you can't use it in your own way. Even if you didn't have formal music training at a young age, you must have been exposed to music to some extent. Whatever language you adopted, is there. It might be a lot different than 17th century music, but that is good, we aren't living in the 17th century.
I really think the greatest modern pitfall is this ideal of music elitism, as if music is only for the select few with 'the gift'. Music is a practice, anybody can do it, the point of music is not being the best in the world, it is 'doing' music. If you want to compose just go do it, there is no magical rite of passage or secret knowledge, you just make up music and the more you do it the better you get at it.
And in terms of skill, I might even cast some doubt on the idea that we couldn't possibly compete with their level of complete musical immersion. It is true we don't have that kind of practice anymore, but we do have unprecedented amount of knowledge and music available at our fingertips. You listen to some high quality podcasts about music theory and history for a couple years while you workout or commute, and I would argue that you have a vastly superior music education than nearly anybody from the past. You can find streaming playlists with music from any time period, any region, where music was recorded in some fashion.
So is it possible to gain the intuitive playing style of a 17th century composer, most likely not. But you will be able to create musical ideas that were never possible just a couple of decades ago based on the incredible amount of knowledge that is available to us. A piece such as Fur Elina from Arvo Part requires almost no technical skill to play, it is all an idea, which we can all create.
Thanks for the lengthy and insightful comment. I agree with a lot of what you have written and would like to contribute a few thoughts on several things.
The first being musical "elitism". I have, at this point, much experience dealing with musicians at all different levels of experience, age and ability. I feel that musical excellence should be carefully cultivated, particularly in terms of preserving the classical tradition, not with a romantic idea of worshipping "the music" itself as many people act out in practice, but more because it's a good that edifies my fellow man and is good example as the practice of art in praise of God.
The pursuit of music as a zero-sum game to establish "personal greatness" where we attack beginners (it's fine to encourage people to excellence) and have constant fear of our place in history, is romantic delusion and should be attacked. So it's perfectly good to venerate great artists and composers in history or in the modern day, as long as it does not go overboard when we see that as _the end_ itself.