United Methodists are Breaking Up...It's Not Pretty
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- Опубліковано 29 чер 2024
- What's been going on in the United Methodist Church? Why are they splitting and what does the situation look like today?
Here's my video earlier this year on the topic if you need more context: • The United Methodist C...
closing down a small church for not paying its kickback is certainly what Christ would do im sure.
He said something about that in one of his letters to the churches in Revelation 2.
I don't remember where but it is definitely there.
...
Oh here it is
‘I know your works, your toil and your patient endurance, and how you cannot bear with those who are evil,
This church is patiently enduring a greedy church that won't pay its share.
As Paul wrote
'I robbed other churches by accepting support from them in order to serve you.'
(2 cor 11:8)
That's what happens when you leave one single group of rich oligarchs to run and own all of the group's property. The UMC legally owns it and they can do with it as they please. It's stupid in the first place to align with these giant groups because there will inevitably be things like this that happen.
Also speaking from my experience in a Southern state with family members in UMC affiliated churches, if people weren't so bigoted and weren't obsessed with how others live their peaceful lives, we wouldn't be in this position to begin with. People became absolutely obsessed with the hypothetical "Well, what if the pastor is gay?" and crusaded to disaffiliate for that reason alone. People were/are willing to take on giant bills, sometimes upwards of $500,000 just to prevent a hypothetical gay bishop from attending the church.
In 10 years time, the groups that remain from the splintering will schism again into even smaller groups and that will continue until they are reabsorbed into bigger groups repeating the cycle.
Chris Hedges calls these people heretics. I prefer the term pseudo Christians. In either case, it’s not lost on God what they worship; nor on any of us. As it is written: “Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.” Matthew 7:20 (KJV)
@@Swagtildawn
A pastor shouldn't be living in sin, to say the least. They're supposed to be leading by example.
@@menudobucket9837 Why do you prefer that term over heretics?
Is it an over used term?
One of our pastors was denied pension since our church left the UMC in the fall and it was a few months shy of his time required to collect pension (or something similar, im not 100% on how it works). Thankfully, a nearby UMC church heard what happened and offered to “hire” him so he could meet all requirements for his pension. It went from him losing his entire retirement to him being able to retire a couple months early while still receiving pay.
That was a moment of beauty in an otherwise difficult split.
UMC pastors are assigned by the bishop. Unless your pastor voluntarily left the denomination to stay with your church, the bishop should have reassigned him to another church remaining in the conference. Churches leaving are required to continue to pay into the retirement fund for some time (a year?). What is the point of that if the pastor of a disaffiliating congregation is going to be denied a pension?
Praise God for His provision for that man!
Top UMC leaders appear to be corrupt...not the type Church I want to belong.
@@mcconn746 running a church like a business is always a mistake
@@benjaminwatt2436 I don't think the Georgia district leaders are running it like a business. Good businesses honor legal contracts without a lawsuit. IMHO, our local UMC leaders are running our Georgia district of the UMC like a crime syndicate. According to the court, pausing it was illegal. They made them resume the disaffiliation process. If the UMC appeals and win, I will feel differently. If not, they tried to cheat us.
As far as I know, most districts honorably did what they were suppose to do. Most Churches followed the guidelines, took the vote and were approved to disaffiliate.
There is a question about the pension fund. Let me say up front that I don't know the whole story so don't judge them until we know for sure.
Right after telling us how much we would owe to disaffiliate, the UMC leaders took $24 million out of the pension fund and increased how much they said we owe. That sounds corrupt but I am not sure.
I also resent that we had to pay legal fees to get them to do what they promised they would do. If they are not corrupt, they will pay our legal fees...just my opinion.
Some Churches did not join the lawsuit. Some just could not afford it. My understanding the UMC will block them from disaffiliating. If true, that is not right.
The above is my understanding. Let me know if I am wrong. Actually, I hope I am wrong on some of it. My contempt for some of our UMC leaders is awful.
I did not leave the United Methodist Church. It left me !!
Exactly
I knew this was gonna happen when they changed the laws on marriage!I'm sorry,god defines marriage and its man and woman,no other way!I' hate to say this but the catholics are trying to unite all denominations and its actually leading to the antichrist, so sad!
I was raised as a Methodist, as an adult, I've been a Baptist for 32 years, and I do believe congregational ownership is the proper way to go, not a corporate ownership.
Congregations should hold their property, but episcopal polity (what Methodists have used basically since our inception) should be our form of church governance.
Orthodox is the way to go.
@nomenclature9607 I would tend to agree with that. I believe strongly in independent churches and while I attend a congregational church (all members have a deciding vote) I think that a model wherein the elders/deacons within that congregation have the decisive authority is more inline with the biblical model.
@nomenclature9607 To be fair, Paul wasn't talking about churches with the kind of large-scale property ownership that many 21st century churches have.
Virgin Congregational, Corporate, Hierarchical
CHAD PRESBYTERIAN
I'm in Iowa, this week 83 churches voted to leave the denomination, including Marion Methodist near Cedar Rapids, which is a pretty large church by Iowa standards. It will be interesting to see what happens from here. 83 is 11% of UMC churches in the state.
I heard that some churches are literally suing the main organization because they aren't legally/financially recognizing them as independent entities & won't let them leave
I guarantee that if 83 left , then another 150 at least want to but either don’t have the money , were heavily discouraged to stay put or both .It’s like sexual abuse- only a fraction of it is actually reported . 😊
@@dylanrobinson3832I haven't heard that but it wouldn't shock me. It's a confusing mess.
@@TestifyApologetics The UMC sucks from what I hear. Apparently in some cases, they've let the church become its own church, but then turn right around & sue them for using the land by claiming it's still theirs
Don’t look at the number of church bodies leaving, but at the head count. Those leaving tend to be the large churches, probably at least 4-5 times larger than the average remaining church. By headcount, that could easily be 35% of congregants leaving, and likely more.
I grew up in an EUB church which became United Methodist. We had to pay hundreds of thousands of $$ to keep the property & buildings that we built and paid for. I feel bad for the smaller churches that cannot afford the exit fees.
Most of those smaller Churches are now those ones with less than 100 members, mostly in rural areas, struggling to just pay their current bills, supporting a part time Pastor, or living out of a conscious and charitable retired one. Traditional worship style that doesn't attract the youth anymore (things are what they are!) which doesn't help either... And the prevalence of those ageing "Parish gurus" which are slowly but consistently losing their cognitive abilities is those Parishes last nail on their coffin... They wont survive for more than 10 years, and those divides will only led to their faster closure. I feel sad for those in said Parishes, once most of them are very far away from those ugly divides over something that is so irrelevant in the grand scheme!... Lord have mercy...
makes you wonder to whom they are loyal? the "god of the world" or our Lord and Savior, God the Son, Jesus Christ?
@@nunagoras Denonminationalism sucks!
As always, follow the money. The denomination is struggling to meet its retirement overhead. There is some limited value in the real estate to the denomination (but after demolition costs, not much). It is cheaper to close down congregations that cannot make their contribution to the pension shortfall than to keep them open, especially if the pastor is assigned full time to that church and is adding to the pension load in the future. So, follow the money and there is your answer to the motives of the central authorities.
I feel bad for people going to drag and homosexual churches but they have to be social don't they to keep spreading their corruption.
As a 15 year old United Methodist back in 1979, I knew the church had doctrinal problems.
Me, too.
This seems to be becoming a pattern in "mainline" denominations. The global denomination has already become overwhelmingly Third World in strength, but the national churches maintain autonomy; so, when the First World denominations split, it is the traditionalists who must leave the global denomination, thereby splitting from a global denomination that they have much more in common with than those who have remained affiliated! This is a peculiar situation on its face and I wonder how long it will last? Perhaps it will differ from denomination to denomination. Perhaps, for example, it would be nonsensical or even impossible for the Anglican Communion to expel the actual Anglicans (along of course with the Episcopalians, Canadian Anglicans, etc.); and the entire denomination is just too bound up in political/structural tradition to ever consider splitting off from them and starting a new communion.
I left UMC in '75 as a 16 year old, because of that.
All religion is poison
Yep. Classical Methodism is certainly the minority in the UMC, what a shame.
as a non methodist this whole thing is super confusing but your videos are always clear about what's happening! thanks for the update.
See my above reply
Is the sun hell?
KJV START in Isaiah 14:9 Hell from (beneath is Moved) did you get that (Hell from below is moved .)
For thee to meet thee at thy coming: (😎to me sound like the 2nd coming.)
It stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the Chief ones of the earth; all the kings of the nations, (😎could these be all the Kings of the nation that brought all the troubles on God children)
READ , Isaiah 14: 9-32
There is a Whole Teachings maybe Two.
We know the lake of Fire all ready exist, I searched along time. Who will be are light in Heaven( Jesus. ) There will be no need for the SUN after second coming.
I was out side and I thought to my self where would the lake of Fire if it all ready exist, and Jesus will be our Light In Heaven.
No need for the Sun.
And I Looked UP (The Sun) it has always been in front of us all along.
Now THE Sun May Be Move into a NEW DIMENSION right where it is.
HELL is THE LAKE OF FIRE.
Description of hell :
People from earth May not See the Sun From earth it my go into a different dimension after the stars fall and the Moon . If you are cast into hell because of Unbelief , you will be by your self on your own area . No one to talk to , the worms will crawl in and out , You will be given new Body’s to take the thousands of degrees of Heat but able to feel the pain forevermore eternity , no WATER to cool your Lips No Not one drop. The worst thing Jesus will not hear your Prayers , I didn’t want to go through This ! I was even going to take the chance . I don’t like Pain .
Jesus can raise anyone from the Dead 😃 he Raise Himself from the Dead .
Jesus Cares for us , he sacrificed his Life for us.
Jesus said take my Yoke upon you for it is light and easy .
Honestly I never had to work for anything , Jesus Blood was enough.
Jesus Loves You
BELIEVE ON THE LORD JESUS
You are Born in the Spirit
BORN AGAIN
See all of you on the Clouds at the WEDDING .
KJV , Jesus told Nicodemus you must be born again .
Believe as a small child
Become a believer Christ JESUS
Rapture any Second
Don’t Believe the Government Aliens There Lying To YOU.
I am a Catholic, but it’s always terrible to see a schism. It always echos 1 Corinthians 1:10 “Now I urge you, brothers and sisters, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all agree and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be made complete in the same mind and in the same judgment.” God save his church…
As a Catholic you should know that Methodism has no place in the church.
But your religion has caused great schisms & persecuted real Christians....
...heresy is a legitimate reason...in Truth the 🏳🌈heretics left the Truth
@@anarchorepublican5954 🏳🌈🔥
@@dylanrobinson3832 so are we not real Christians?
I will NEVER again belong to a church where the synod or conference owns the church property rather than the local congregation. I walked away from a Reformed church that had that very view and it was just part of the bullying that the classis and synod used against the local congregations.
just find a Born Again Church that is not a Mega church.
I was a Methodist pastor for over 25 years. The division has been long coming. I'm not sure if it could have been avoided.
However it has turned into a far more ugly mess than it should have and it's due in no small part to many bishops and other leaders are being rather unchristian in their behavior.
- Each conference is a geographic territory headed by a bishop. Some Bishops are being very decent about this so please don't label all Methodists for this.
Other Bishops are:
- Closing down churches without real reasons, discussions, vote or consent.
- Setting exorbitant "exit fees" or other costs.
- Finding ways to unjustly remove pastors who aren't cooperative.
- ignoring the wishes of the laity.
- Other unjust punitive actions are happening.
- God may be forgiving but some of our Bishops seem to forget a lot of people aren't. When the world sees clergy behaving like this it really damages churches. The hypocrisy can do more damage than the divisive issues.
It's hard enough to grow a church today. Who wants to join when the leaders are acting like a bunch of backstabbing, money grubbing, sore losers?
- I did not leave the UMC because of this but there are many things I don't miss. I am in a new church myself, and a lot happier, but I wonder if this garbage isn't going to hurt everyone, including non Methodist churches like mine.
- So regardless where you may stand on this issue, or any issue, please know we aren't all a bunch of monsters and there are plenty of decent people who will welcome you to their church. In fact we need you.
I am an atheist but agreed with my wife when she wanted to raise our children Catholic and send them to Catholic schools (which we did and they were both "lifers"). However, I in dealing closely with the Catholic Church's officials/representatives throughout this time I was struck by how often the behavior of the various leaders was certainly not in line with Christian teachings. Needless to say our children now follow in my footsteps.
You need us but we do not need you😂
I left the UMC many years ago when I finally understood why the clergy didn’t seem to really care about the members. The UMC believes that the people must love God not only above all others, but they must only love God. I finally began to understand why as children we were taught much more about John Wessley than we were taught about Jesus. To me it just seems like a money making racket.
@@gaylegeren3992 Believe me, there are pastors out there that will bend over backwards for their people. Sorry that you did not have 1 of those.
As for children I found my own experiences in Sunday School seriously lacking in religious teaching. I became a Christian largely outside church so I tried to bring faith into the church.
And it worked. One of my "kids" 20 years ago grew up to tell me she might not be a Christian if she had a different pastor; the kind who rather ignores the children.
I was not perfect, but I tried to love my flock.
I was raised Catholic by my mother, but paternal grandfather was a UMC pastor. I never once hear the name Wesley until after he died. He only spoke about his love for Christ and serving others. I started going to UMC after he died and I’ve heard the name mentioned once in the last two years. That hasn’t been my experience in TN, NC and SC.
Methodists: "oh no a schism!"
Catholics: "first time?"
Lutherans: "Again, I hate it when that happens"
It's actually not their first time. Various "Holiness movement" sects (sorry, denominations) were started by disillusioned Methodists who felt their denomination had become too compromised by worldliness.
@@michaels4255 I was baptized in a Methodist church, I can remember when the merger with the United Brethren happened. Our local congregation switched to computerized billing, we stopped going, our congregation merged with another one downtown. I wandered the world a lost soul, 20 some years later marrying a women raised Lutheran. When it finally got through my thick head I needed God I joined the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod.
Presbyterians: "Welcome to the fold"
@@fk4515 If you need God, seek his church! Don't settle for weak imitations, like the Catholic church.
I hope that those congregations that were unexpectedly forced to close, strongly appealed that decision and even sued the conference. Forcing a church to close, while not informing the congregation, is wrong in anyone's books. It's certainly not what Jesus would do!
Jesus wouldn't have started 30+ denominations who point fingers at each other, either.
@@xansolskjr8628 Jesus can do anything
I'm not sure bringing a lawsuit against those who wrong us is what Jesus would want us to do, though.
@@danieldausman3741 No, but exposing their wickedness and gathering in Jesus' name outside of organized religion ain't a bad way to end the relationship.
@@danieldausman3741 Considering the Avenue of doing it through normal talks has been closed.... It is recommended against and called shameful by the apostles but it is obvious that things aren't being done on the up and up, rather people are going behind the backs of other people and doing what they want. We know what God thinks of people trying to do something like that, considering the tale of that one couple, that sold property and reported that they were giving everything they got from that sale, while keeping some money for themselves. Their duplicity was judged by the Holy Spirit and they got punished for it.
In any case, Happy Pentecost to all!
@@fibonacho
Yes. Ugh!
Happy Birthday to the Catholic Church, Pentecost 33 AD
@@specialteams28 - You mean 324AD and Shavuot (Pentecost) had nothing to do with it.
@@RonaldLindeboom Pentecost is the Church's birthday . The word Pentecost is Greek and it means "50th day." Fifty days after Easter Sunday, we celebrate the coming of the Holy Spirit upon the Apostles and their followers, and the beginning of their Earthly ministry to make disciples of all nations.
Pentecost is also a Jewish holiday, which the Jews use to celebrate the end of Passover. Jews celebrate the gift of the law to Moses at Mt. Sinai on this day. But we, as Catholics celebrate the birth of our Church.
At Pentecost, the Apostles and their followers were gathered in a room. Jews from all over the world were gathered with Peter, the leader of the Apostles and the Eleven. At this time, a great wind blew and a flame appeared as a tongue of fire, which split itself into many individual flames above the heads of all those present. The Holy Spirit came upon these people and each began to speak in tongues. Despite the fact many had no common language, they were perfectly able to understand one another.
Others who were no so blessed, accused those speaking in tongues of being drunk, but Peter arose and addressed the crowd, explaining that it was only 9 o'clock, and that this phenomenon was not intoxication, but rather this was the work of the Holy Spirit, prophesied in the scripture.
Peter then called all those present to be baptized and about three thousand people were baptized that day.
These people were among the first Catholics, and Peter is the first pope of the Catholic Church.
The symbols of Pentecost are the flame, wind, and the dove, which represents the Holy Spirit. The color of Pentecost is red and the priest wears red vestments on this day. Parishioners are also invited to wear red on this day. Red decorations as well as celebrations are appropriate, similar to any other birthday. Special prayers are often said just for Pentecost.
Absolutely beautifully and thoroughly expressed. Thank you ✝️
Honestly, there would be a lot more churches leaving if they could afford to. Many of these smaller churches have less than 100 active members, mostly older and in a blue collar area that has been in decline.
The problem is they don’t own their own buildings, the corporation does. Churches should be able to keep their own durn buildings.
As a member of a congregation that has voted to disaffiliate, but is still going through the process, I would like to mention that for a great many, the issue of human sexuality has very little to do with the decision. It was certainly a factor in causing some to take a look at the root issues, but for us the deciding factor was to take the opportunity to chase the moneychangers from the temple, as it were - the central authorities appeared to be running a business, not living a vocation. It is very likely we will remain independent instead of donning a different leash.
Well said.
Indeed, the sensuality, is just a fraction of issue. The underlying issue of Dening diety of Christ,is , is what's behind curtain!!
Well said!! I agree completely!! I think that the corrupt UMC leadership made this a human sexuality issue to both hide their corruption and make the future GMC look bad.
“The [formerly known as ‘United’] Methodist Church”
Edit: while I joke, I do take this seriously as I know many people who are wrestling deeply with what is going on. It’s not an easy time at all, and I pray for true Christian Unity
"I pray for true Christian Unity"
Not only is that guaranteed fail, it will documented on this channel.
@@jamesparson then we are to assume Christ's prayer in John 17 will never be answered?
@@thenazarenecatholic I am an exCatholic atheists, so I suspect my answer will be ignored, but I am going to give it anyway.
The closest that the Catholic Church ever got that happening was when they opened a dialog with the Orthodox. Ready to Harvest has a great video on this called "What do Catholics and Orthodox Think of Each Other?"
The real is, if you given enough evidence of this disunity of all the various denominations of Christianity, would you accept that evidence?
I think the proper Catholic answer to that question is to not accept any evidence. In fact in Mass, when the congregation prays for unity, I think you should stay silent. To pray for unity is to imply that there isn't unity.
@@jamesparson thank you for taking the time to share that perspective - I'll be thinking on that
@@jamesparson Are you really suggesting folks should just pretend there is a universal church in spite of all the denominations within our line of sight? I'm not religious by any stretch of the imagination but it seems improper to suggest to folks who do take this stuff seriously that they ought to just impose their explicitly false assessment upon reality and hope it sticks. I mean based if you're going full divide and conquer, can't unify if everyone already thinks they're together, but that doesn't seem to be what you're going for.
As a non-religious person who is interested in culture, politics, society and religion, I very much appreciate your straightforward, informational videos. The world could use much more of this kind of approach.
Is the sun hell?
KJV START in Isaiah 14:9 Hell from (beneath is Moved) did you get that (Hell from below is moved .)
For thee to meet thee at thy coming: (😎to me sound like the 2nd coming.)
It stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the Chief ones of the earth; all the kings of the nations, (😎could these be all the Kings of the nation that brought all the troubles on God children)
READ , Isaiah 14: 9-32
There is a Whole Teachings maybe Two.
We know the lake of Fire all ready exist, I searched along time. Who will be are light in Heaven( Jesus. ) There will be no need for the SUN after second coming.
I was out side and I thought to my self where would the lake of Fire if it all ready exist, and Jesus will be our Light In Heaven.
No need for the Sun.
And I Looked UP (The Sun) it has always been in front of us all along.
Now THE Sun May Be Move into a NEW DIMENSION right where it is.
HELL is THE LAKE OF FIRE.
Description of hell :
People from earth May not See the Sun From earth it my go into a different dimension after the stars fall and the Moon . If you are cast into hell because of Unbelief , you will be by your self on your own area . No one to talk to , the worms will crawl in and out , You will be given new Body’s to take the thousands of degrees of Heat but able to feel the pain forevermore eternity , no WATER to cool your Lips No Not one drop. The worst thing Jesus will not hear your Prayers , I didn’t want to go through This ! I was even going to take the chance . I don’t like Pain .
Jesus can raise anyone from the Dead 😃 he Raise Himself from the Dead .
Jesus Cares for us , he sacrificed his Life for us.
Jesus said take my Yoke upon you for it is light and easy .
Honestly I never had to work for anything , Jesus Blood was enough.
Jesus Loves You
BELIEVE ON THE LORD JESUS
You are Born in the Spirit
BORN AGAIN
See all of you on the Clouds at the WEDDING .
KJV , Jesus told Nicodemus you must be born again .
Believe as a small child
Become a believer Christ JESUS
Rapture any Second
Don’t Believe the Government Aliens There Lying To YOU.
On a side note happy pentacost Sunday guys may the holy spirt be with you all . Hosanna in exelcis, Pax tibi .
Church splits are painful, but they’re always opportunities to seek first the Kingdom and to trust God wherever He leads you. Prayers to anyone within the UMC looking for a Biblically based church to find it and grow in the Lord!
There isn't a single "Biblically based" church anywhere, in any denomination. Have you actually READ the Bible? Stoning people. Tests of fidelity within a marriage (for the woman only, because the man can screw whatever woman he wants). Polygamy. Slavery.
Dumb
When I was still part of the UMC candidate ministry program at McMurry twenty years ago, we talked about how the schism was inevitable. I’ve long since left the faith, but have kept tabs, and to see it finally happening is wild.
Or they could've just stuck to Christian teachings/values and not have had this happen...
Snowy Hare, did you leave Faith in Christ or that denomination?
@@KillerofGods Exactly.
Did you leave Christianity or Methodism?
@@KillerofGods Remind me, what did Jesus say about homosexuality?
I went to a very liberal UMC affiliated college from 2007-2009 (now defunct) and as a Baptist, I am glad to see them splitting due to doctrinal differences. I was never comfortable at the college’s mandatory services, but am grateful for the experience.
So many small private colleges are going to close over the next 10-15 years. It is sad to see.
Out of curiosity, which college?
My daughter is currently attending a UMC college in Oklahoma. Had I known what I do now, I would have forbid her going there. They openly teach woke doctrine, and the herd mentality of the students has turned it into a den of left-wing indoctrination. It's affected the relationship with my daughter unfortunately. Would rather have had her go to a public university than what she's in now. And we paid a lot for the school.
@@MarcusBP Ah yes, much better to be fast asleep than to be awake. Keep drinking that decaff! No matter what, you do NOT want to wake up!
But seriously, the obsession with "woke" is pure nonsense. It's just a conservative buzzword standing in for everything they don't like at this point. And I'd be willing to bet that the problem with your relationship with your daughter has little to do with the school she went to and is entirely due to the fact that you absolutely can't stand that she disagrees with you on politics.
But sure, keep drinking that decaff kool-aid and pushing her away by being unreasonable and stubborn. I'm sure that will work out great for you.
@@MarcusBP Your statement conforms to me that you may not be as Christian as you think you are. You want control. Well...good luck with that because you're at a crossroads. It's either rigid and inflexible control or love and understanding and empathetic acceptance. I already know which path Jesus points us to (regardless of what church doctrine created by flawed men in the 1730's might say) ..... peace be with you and good luck.
My church will be voting on their status with the UMC in November. Sunday we were informed that the UMC had fired our pastor. For the record, he has given ZERO clues as to his preference on the vote. He rightly stated that it's the decision of the congregation and he would not sway that. Well, he was fantastic and they pretty much made my decision for me. I view this as an act of vengeance for a church that will likely vote nearly unanimously to exit the organization.
How is it vengeance if he never communicated a preference?
@@kenbaker8855 he wasn’t allowed to. He was told by the bishop to not return
@@kenbaker8855, vengeance against the UMC, not the pastor. The UMC has declared it to act of hostility to simply enter "discernment" (which is the process by which the church deliberates and votes on if they want to leave or remain). To be clear, regardless of the feelings of the pastor, if a church even ENTERTAINS voting to leave, it will be viewed with scorn by the UMC (which is likely the main component in why this particular pastor was relieved of duty).
@@flyingphoenix113 My church is in one of the largest conferences in the connection and what you are describing has not been our experience during the disaffiliation process. It should be noted that some congregations are attempting to exploit the provision that establishes the predicate upon their potential leaving is based.
Against the CHURCH@@kenbaker8855
Yesterday, I saw a "For Sale" sign had gone up outside the little United Methodist church in my neighborhood. I used to try to time my runs so I would be close by to hear the hourly church bell ring. It always makes me sad to see one of God's houses close. I pray all the congregants find a new home where they can continue to grow in their faith! 🙏
Divorce is hard and painful and messy almost always. I heart bleeds for those hurt by what’s going on. I am hopeful that both communities, liberal and conservative, will come out stronger and more healthy in the end. I also hope both old and new denominations will work together in common areas such as community service.
Not possible.... one accepts facts and science, the other thinks the earth is flat as the bible tells us.
Very nice ad hominem fallacy. Great logic and argument skills there .
Amen, and that is our plan, not sure about the UMC. And MR Friedel, you are so wrong it is scary.
Yes, we believe as the Bible tells us, and it does not say the world is flat, it says we are all sinners and one side denies that. Do you? My church is politically liberal, but religiously conservative. Not hard, to do and the two really should have nothing to do with each other. Mix politics and religion, religion loses. Some folks think religion is about telling others how to live and allowing folks outside the church to tell the Church how it is to be, we don't buy into that lie. Religion is how YOU live and how YOU interact with God and others, not the other way around. That is how you win folks over to Christ, not telling them that the bible is not truth, and that Jesus was just another person and not fully God as well, the miracles are jsut legends and didn't really happen and so on. That is the what is going on in the UMC leadership, not the seats. None of us are any better or worse than the other, but if you don't live as God tells us you should, if you took vows and simply decide not to follow them, you should not be on the Pulpit. Period. You should start your own faith, as many have done and see what happens, not destroy another that you never intended to follow.
@@jonathanfriedel Except the Bible doesn’t say the Earth is flat. And doesn’t say the Earth is a few thousand years old.
@@fighterofthenightman1057 You can see all four corners of the earth... that would make it flat.
Odd how they want YOU to follow the "rules" when it comes to disassociation even though those rules are unclear, and seem to be arbitrarily enforced, but they don't feel obligated to follow the rules stated in the discipline pertaining to homosexuality.
I have personally disassociated with the UM church after a lifelong membership. I refuse to be a part of their apostasy.
Why wouldn’t any local church within the connection wish to remain in integrity by basing its decision to disassociate on the negotiated provision that requires opposition to the full inclusion of LGBTQ Christians into the life and governance of the UMC? Even the casual observer knew this day would come when the clumsily phrased “homosexuality incompatible with Christian teaching” was added to the Discipline decades ago
Heartbreaking. I don’t know what’s to come of our historic church home.
What is interesting that a large number of the big churches are going. Churches less than 100 stay but they lack the money to leave. That makes the split seem more decisive
I have been a UMC member since 99 and married in a UMC church in 2000. I travel for work extensively and attend whatever UMC church is close to where I am working; wow things have changed in the last year. I am never sure what to expect when I get there. It's very sad that we can't even unite un der Christ any longer. God Bless and God speed to all.
Bigots are cruel
@guyarrol582 no, stupidity by progressives must be destroyed before they destroy America.
It is interesting that you only pointed out the people who want to stay but their church votes to leave..."our church has left us"...yet you failed to point out that there are probably a lot of people who want their church to leave, but the vote is to stay. My guess is those people also feel their church has left them.
Yes, my church voted 61-59 to stay, but lots of families departed.
@@charlestonscnative9083 I think many of the bishops and district superintendents would be perversely happy with this outcome. Now the church, though much smaller, would be solidly in the liberal column. The bishop can now count on that church's vote at annual conference.
@@charlestonscnative9083 I'm going to nitpick a bit.
Did you mean that, of 120 voting parishioners, 61 voted nay, and 59 yeah, to leaving?
Or should that 59 be a 39, or that 61 be a 41?
Because those two numbers don't sum to 100.
Churches are dying. Every year attendance is down. The older generation dies and the younger gen are not filling the void. I attended a Methodist Church while growing up. In Bible school, the teacher said if you didn't except Christ, you would go to Hell. I asked what about the babies that died before they could accept Christ and she said they would go to Hell. I never went back.
I did some work for a church who is leaving the UMC. Part of the issue is that the conferences share legal title to real estate with the congregations, and they have to get that straightened out before they can leave.
This goes a lot deeper than churches leaving the UMC. A lot of individual UMC members and families have left and are leaving over this issue, including my own. It's really sad.
Pastors too.
Only the apostasy is sad. Defending the faith is not, and sometimes that can only be done by separation.
@@michaels4255 Yes. someone asked the question why not stay and fight. I say, Get thee behind me Satan, regroup and start over.
Two things: doctrine, and the UMC corporation being run like a crime syndicate.
I attend Christ Church in Southwestern Illinois near St. Louis, MO. We used to be Christ United Methodist Church and we were one of the largest UMC churches in the Illinois Great Rivers Conference. We decided to leave in early 2020. It was presented as we wanted to have more control over where our money goes but I think the LGBT issue was also a big part of it.
Has the church done well since then? I'm curious if leaving helped or hurt in the short-term?
@@shanefrederick7731 Some people did leave the church after we left the denomination, but from my perspective, I believe that we are doing as well as before we left.
@@TheFirestarter1992 Praise God 👏 🙌 🙏
We are glad you are gone.
@@divingchicago They chose not to go down with the sinking ship
That is one of the reasons why I'm an Independent Baptist. No convention controls the local churches, the local churches do.
Then, who holds the Independent Baptists to approved theology? There has to be some structure. Otherwise you’ll have “gay”-affirming Independent Baptist Churches on your midst.
@@keithwilson6060 God holds Independent Baptists to their view of theology. Also, not to brag but Independent Baptists are some of the most conservative Christian denominations, so I don't think gay-affirming churches will be a problem.
But to answer your question, most Independent Baptists have very similar if not identical theology, and if different it is very minor. But if said situation did happen, the majority of other Independent Baptists would not fellowship with the church that supports that theology.
However, most of the time instead of having different theology under the same name, they would probably completely change everything about the church. Take out the name Baptist in their church name, restructure it to have a more contemporary feel, etc.
So, instead of staying in the denomination, they would completely leave.
I hope this answers your question.
@@swordsforthetruthBaptists get into schisms over whether to allow translations newer than KJV.
@@jimdake6632 Kind of. Most Independent Baptists already use KJV, myself included. But the spectrum of Baptists is much, much more than the Independent Baptists. (There are like 500 different denominations within the Baptist denominations. It's really confusing)
But in my initial comment, I was referring to Independent Baptists, and why I like them because no higher convention or association controls them. Also, Independent Baptists technically can't get in schisms because they don't have a convention to have a schism in, lol.
I hope this helped answer your questions and don't hesitate to ask if you have any more questions.
@@swordsforthetruth The best church I ever attended was an Independent Baptist church. I'm very non-denominational, and I've attended many denominations as a church musician. Grew up Pentecostal, went to an Episcopal church for a scholarship during undergrad, then went to a well known Baptist church in Atlanta. But that independent Baptist church I attended offered solid teaching, structure leadership, and absolute transparency of their finances. I attended it during the COVID years. Only reason I left was my current church, ironically a UMC, offered me a position in their music ministry. I was already familiar with my current church and that community, as I teach at the affiliated private Christian School across the street. So my full-time job and church/church gig are at the same location. My church has voted to leave. I still plan on going to a non-denominational or independent Baptist church in the future.
Great coverage. One of the reasosn a lot of congregations pulled out is because of confusion over decision deadlines. Originally, churches were given a deadline to decide on a gracious exit that allowed congregations to keep their church property. But, it looks like conferences were not honoring what was presented.
Some entire conferences had pans to exit, but plans changed during covid.
The former bishop of the N. Georgia conference denied ANY church from leaving, completely ignoring the general conference order.
@@anb7408 Yep. I think that got settled (or is about to be) settled in court.
The higher ups are corrupt and are working to save the corporation money.
Joshua again does a great job explaining the split in the UMC. I’m a member of the UMC, and I was hoping some solution could be made, but both sides are firmly entrenched in their beliefs.
Regarding the closure of the churches because of low attendance or struggling to pay bills, the procedure described in the video is troubling because there’s even a procedure for struggling churches that might be moving toward closure. And those closures wouldn’t necessarily be connected to the split that’s happening, but of course it could have some connection.
If you truly believe that your position is the biblically, correct one, why not be entrenched in that position? Or are you going to be a noodle being blown by every wind of doctrine?
@@keithwilson6060 you got me. Somewhere in my comment was actually a secret code that I must be on the Progressive side of this issue. I was simply making an observation as a Methodist. I am sad about the split and regardless of which side that I'm on, it's going to further divide Methodists. I'll be judged by whichever side I take, being called either a bigot or a heretic by fellow Methodists. Great choice, huh?
If it makes you feel better to calling me a noodle, great. Have fun. I prefer Alfredo Sauce over Marinara.
@@sjduges67
If the split was necessary, why be sad about it? That’s what I don’t get. Unless you put denominational partisanism (almost all denominations are guilty to some degree) ahead of the truth, why be married to a particular sect?
But I get it. You grow up embracing a particular tradition. It’s painful to part with. Like a dear friend departed.
This is really just covering up and distracting (or maybe a symptom?) of the crisis of declining membership (and revenues), and relevance of the (all) churches. If churches were healthy, then people would quietly migrate to churches they associate with. Now they are declining and its a game of musical chairs, and everyone want to make sure their chair is the "right" one. So every little issue in a polarized society becomes a fracture line.
The UMC leadership (meaning the bishops and district superintendents) don't want to lose their power so they are pulling out all their tricks to keep churches from leaving. It is unfortunate that it has come this anyway. Churches that adhere to the Book of Discipline, the second most important book in the governance of the church, shouldn't be the ones forced to leave. There should be a amicable split or the churches that refuse to follow the Book of Discipline should be the ones leaving and starting a new denomination. For the most part, the liberal leaning congregations are on the decline while the churches outside of the US that still strongly follow the Book of Discipline are still growing. The leadership is going to find that members will just leave Methodism altogether if the leadership continues to ignore biblical teachings. They may have to close a lot more churches for lack of members. Lots of parishioners haven't returned after the pandemic closures and the church certainly isn't giving them a reason to return. The conferences will have a hard time paying the mortgages on church facilities if a majority of the members leave. The conference may technically own the property but it is the local members who pay the bills. The church leadership made this mess and they seem determined to make it worse.
What they are doing is about as amicable as the UMC could make it, given the years of delay from the pandemic. (The "Protocol of Reconciliation & Grace Through Separation" negotiated in early 2020 was to be approved in 2020's General Conference, but the GC was cancelled when worldwide travel became impossible; there's been no GC in the 20's so far.)
@@scottk4780 Did you watch the video? The UMC is being aggressive and hostile towards traditionalist churches.
@@howtubeable Yes, I watched it and liked the video very much. There were some examples shown that one might consider "aggressive and hostile", but a few examples out of the 3000+ congregations that are already disaffiliating, well, I don't think the examples given are representative of the whole. (I grant that the situation is too opaque to be able to draw any conclusions.)
On the other hand, I think closing churches without warning is a TERRIBLE thing and as a UMC lay-person I condemn that. I'm familiar with the UMC style of things, loosely centralized and deliberative. (For crying out loud, there have been battles over the "gay part of the Book of Discipline for at least 20 years.) That's why closing a church with one day's notice is so jarring -- everything else is done slowly and gradually, including disaffiliation.
@@scottk4780 They could have tried again in 2022 or this year, but no. They could have called a virtual conference, but no, just more delays. As the video points out some conferences have tried to prevent disaffiliation votes altogether. In my conference, North Georgia, the bishop unilaterally decided there would be no disaffiliation votes until 2024, after the provisions of the 2019 conference expired. Church "leaders" are ignoring existing rules and making things up as they go along.
@@brownro214 I'm confused. They're forcing you to leave by preventing you from leaving? That doesn't follow.
Interesting. I knew that a split was going on, but had no idea that it was so contentious and done so haphazardly. It almost sounds like some conferences are treating this like an old-school company trying to break a strike.
I’m not really a denominational kind of guy, but I got saved at 17 at a UMC youth retreat, and was discipled at a UMC early in my walk with the Lord so I still have a place in my heart for it. Watching this is painful, but not quite as painful as watching them go apostate. Praying for a softening of their hearts and for repentance.
Thanks for the update and other great information.
Church has been divorced from it’s sanity these days!
Church closures: it's all about real estate money. Anthony Stine ("Return to Tradition" UA-cam channel) has recently commented on how real estate money has driven Catholic bishops to close various convents.
My 5th great grandfather and many of his son's, son-in-laws were trained by Bishop Francis Asbury . Still today there are many distant relatives in the faith. Grandfather would turn over in his Grave. My family names are Bird, Byrd and Allison
To me, the really depressing thing is that the description presented here, accurate though it was, seemed almost to be sugar coated. The reality is even uglier although I must admit that I have seen some small evidence of grace recently even, much to my surprise, by my annual conference. For the most part, however, deceit is the rule of the day from the hierarchy and refusal to "follow the rules" is the rule among the disaffected who seek to leave because the church is not "following the rules". John 11:35
It's sad (and strange) when "Christian" churches are based on only a few scriptures and a lot of opinions.
It's even sadder when a Christian denomination decides to ignore any scripture and make up their own theology based on current cultural mores.
@@morenamad9182 Very true!
@@morenamad9182then they are fakes and frauds.
@@bobzelley5100 and yet there are some large denominations which fit this description.
My parents are leaders of my Methodist church back home... this has been ongoing for a while now. Unfortunately the “leave and keep your property” thing isn’t exactly true.
The corporation is extorting money from the churches.
Went through this when I was Episcopal. Converted to Orthodoxy and never looked back.
I'm curious about orthodoxy. The only reason I haven't been one to try it is because the closest to me is over an hour away.
Same
@@danielwilliamson1577 if you ever do get an opportunity I recommend making the trek. it is sad that there aren't enough Parishes but hopefully that will change soon.
Congratulations! You converted to a religion followed mostly by godless Serbs and Russians. EO is just a s foreign as Islam.
Thank you, this was very informative. I have grown up as a United Methodist, but am currently a member of a non-denominational Christian church. I still spend my summers and many Sundays at the UMC where I grew up. I am praying for all involved...
One could look at this situation and frown, but I think we need to keep perspective and not start romanticizing Catholicism and Orthodoxy. They split in 1054 over a trifle and could not sit at the same table until 1965, how many years was that? 911 years! And there are now so many fundamental and philosophical differences between them that it is anathema for the Orthodox side to accept Roman Catholic communion!
And let's not forget: There is no serious intention at reunion any time soon. This is why I don't think Roman Catholics or Eastern Orthodox have ANY room to judge Protestants about any splits whatsoever, which they so often do.
Amen
Roman Catholics were basically the first Protestants. Orthodoxy is relatively the same as its been since the first millenia. The divide grew as Catholics kept adding more and more to the faith.
@@SeriouslyAwesome To be honest and historical, neither Orthodoxy or Catholicism stayed the same. Had that been true there would never have been the Iconoclasm catastrophe which lasted for about 100 years. Also, in the fifth and sixth century Collyridianism was emerging out of Arabia and BIshops in Asia Minor were sounding the alarm about the dangers of venerating the Virgin Mary. But guess what? Look what we have today. I have a book in my library called, "Mary the Hope of the World."
We have Christians running around calling themselves "Marians." Neither church stayed the same on many consequential things. Even Orthodox and Catholics have different doctrines about the afterlife, priest celibacy, spirituality, you name it. The earliest Christians believed Jesus would return in their lifetime. Which one of the two great Christian churches is going to own up to and accept that? Let me know.
The truth is: we are all Christians, but more importantly, we are all human beings, have different ideas and we all make mistakes.
@Amazing Bible Antiquities there is a lot of context missing in your comment. Yes, there were a lot of heresies that early church father St. Ireneus of Lyon illuminated and it was also the purpose of creating ecumenical councils like in Nicea. That's why we have the bible canon. Islam is basically one of those (Nestorian) heresies.
Speaking of, the iconoclasm catastrophe was a disaster because it was a massacre of Christians largely at the hands of iconoclastic Muslims. St John of Demascus treatise on the matter defended the use, theologically and historically, soundly.
Either way, this is all preschism when the church was one. Probably all of the differences you mention are post 1054 schism innovations by the Roman Catholic church.
The anti anything Mary is all an innovation of the faith the past few hundred years. It's all gone too far. None of the great reformers would agree with modern Protestant takes and hate. Jesus loved her and Paul and the apostles held her in the highest esteem. She deserves veneration.
I can only think of St Gregory Palamas' "Essence and Energies distinction" being new (post schism) to the Orthodox church and even that is more a theological refinement. The Roman Catholics are even starting to adopt it more and more. The E.O. liturgy is still the same as 2nd or 3rd century.
Tbf, I didn't know any of this as a Protestant (I'm always learning and a recent convert). Studying church history really opened my eyes to the fullness of the faith. God bless.
They fought wars that killed millions, btw. I'm sure Jesus wept a lot.
Very useful news update! Thanks!
My family left the umc about 14 years ago. Our church was quite large and moved to a new location and started actively petitioning the other churches members to leave the church. Umc told them to knock it off and they decided to instead leave the UMC. They lost about half their membership in that move. I've kind of drifted away from church since.
You are very welcom to visit a Southern Baptist Church where the full gospel is being taught and supported !
This is a hoot. Using the courts to address liturgical choice. What an amazing Method.
It's not a "liturgical choice"...it's a substancial doctrinal difference, with the denomination trying to keep the property and money.
@mitchellsmith4690 yes the Methodist doctrine on what liturgy to preach or teach, what creed to espouse. It's still amazing to take a disagreement on church teaching to a court. In the most real sense a secular court is being asked to rule on a church decision.
@@octuple505 I don't think you know what
Liturgy means, and the court case is about money, property and retirement benefits. I point to your use of "teach" and "preach"...liturgy is the method and mode of official, public worship--not doctrine, discipline or finances.
@mitchellsmith4690 I understand what has happened. You can play these circular word games and definitia to exhaustion. What's occurred is what is being taught / preached, which is based on the liturgy or liturgical formation has changed, and and some don't like it. It then comes down to which groups claim which church property, an equitable decision cannot be reached. So go to court and ask a secular government judge to decide which side gets the property. Then that side uses those resources to spread a liturgy the others disagree with.
It's all related, and definitely a hoot.
@@octuple505 and you still don't know what liturgy means.
The denomination hasn’t been pretty for a while now, not surprised their split is going the way it is.
Listening to this reminded me of a sentence from the book The History Of Claiborne Parish, La. "He was a most zealous Methodist and seemed to think, from the way he talked, that Methodism was first and the Bible second." (by Harris & Hulse, 1886). It's certainly not just Methodism, but how often do we see that Jesus' general teachings and the spirit of Christian fellowship fall to the wayside when money or property is involved?
What about principal?
I read a quote in a story by Rober Heinlein "Religions have schisms as naturally as a cat has kittens." This "divorce" is not big deal in the long run."
Whats crazy about this split is that most of the people who are leaving got exactly what the said they wanted- tougher sanctions against gay people in ministry. They are reacting as if the UMC is inclusive,but its not!
Where does “inclusivity” meet its boundary? There is a move afoot by activists to call pedophiles “Minor Attracted Persons”. Is that okay? Embrace that, too? What about sex change operations for children? That okay? Anything goes and we just say, “be inclusive of all?”
@@Joraines it's OK to call pedophiles minor attracted persons. That's just different words. It's not ok to sexually assault anyone, especially children.
Why is it that religious leaders who claim authority on moral matters have seemingly no understanding that sexual assault of children is wrong?
@@Joraines in the US at least children are not having sex change operations. That's the whole point of puberty blockers - to delay having to make permanent decisions until adulthood.
Why should churches like the UMC continue to get their way with the government backed suppression of LGBT people when they continually demonstrate complete ignorance about LGBT people. At least walk a mile in someone's shoes before condemning them
I have to assume that even the churches that are staying have many members who are uncomfortable with the church's position on homosexuality. So the discord is even greater than the numbers would suggest.
One problem, Baltimore Washington Charge Conference is holding every deed to every church in it's charge. Every single one. We are being black mailed to stay because if we leave, they will keep our property. The property, the buildings, everything that the parisheners paid for, they have control of. They are in the catbird seat, and will do anything they want, including changing the bylaws. It is like a divorce of the christians, where the paritioners get nothing, and the charger conference gets everything. We have to pay them for our own properties. Their changing the laws to be unchristian, unbibical, and taking our property with them. If the members want to leave, they pay up millions of dollars, and loose everything. The pastor, insurance, name, and everything. We would have to start from the beginning. It js the most unholy thing to happen to the Methodist church, and I'm sure John Wesley is spinning in his grave! May God's will be done with them!
Virginia too. Corrupt as hell.
I was a high school senior when the Methodist and EUB came together. I don’t recall much about it other than my father, a UMC minister in the West Ohio conference, referring to it. My husband and I have been Methodists for most of our marriage (we were married in the Methodist church.) We returned to Ohio a few years ago because both of my parents were failing. They are both gone now and I am heartbroken at what is happening to the church. I am in my 70s and cannot bear to be a part of what is happening. We have joined another Protestant church, which we believe demonstrates the love and acceptance Jesus taught in every meeting and service it holds. This is so very sad.
I WAS a Methodist, raised a Methodist, but no longer! Shoot, I even have a cross and flame tattooed on my left leg. When people ask if I’m a Methodist, I say I WAS. Then they ask if I left the Methodist church and I respond that no, I never left the church, the church left ME!
I figure I have enough to answer for and being in a church that doesn’t preach the Bible isn’t something that I have to worry about now.
Oh, my home church, the one I grew up in, left the Methodist church too.
Any church which rejects Scripture on the basis of it being "inconvenient" or "not modern" shouldn't be calling itself Christian to begin with. The small Methodist church I'd attended for 10 years closed at the end of 2019 due to the congregation being too small, even though the particular pastor we had did follow Scripture closely. I have not joined a church since, but I am looking for a church which follows the Bible. I am contemplating a Wisconsin Synod Lutheran church near me. I had an opportunity to talk with the pastor and his wife, and they seem to follow the Bible quite closely in their church. Be reminded, however, that every individual church is different, even within one particular sect (this video certainly proves that), and that pretty much every church seems to have some level of dissonance with Scripture. Finding a church which follows Scriptural doctrine is VERY tough to find in this hedonistic age. 😞😒
Why not come back to the True Church under the Bishop of Rome, if you're looking for truth? The Cathechism is printed treasure.
@@hermiliocarvalhojr.7208 I'm waiting for RCIA to start. Last year, I was running while listening to John 6 and that chapter made me realize the presence was true.
LCMS is a great choice, another is ACNA.
Come to the one true apostolic Orthodox Church!
The Catholic Church is the very appearance of greed and perversion of the Gospel
You present this only to the UMC in the US. In Europe also several congregations leave their central conference, for instance the Czech Republic, Romania, Hungary or others - and all this due to the same topic 🤦🏻♂️
"God loves you where you're at. But He loves you too much to leave you there." ~ Rev Billy Graham, 1971
Amen
Having tried various denominations, I’ve found corrupt control by ruling hierarchy who only are interested in control and money! Disgusted with organized religion and refuse to participate in any of them. I will trust in my personal relationship with the Lord.
I have quit attending my church and will not give any more financially until there is a vote. I feel like they are hoping this all just goes away. My patience is running out. I will start looking for another church if this issue isn't resolved soon. 2 Timothy 4:3 This is further confirmation of the word of God, the predicted falling away.
Agreed. So many are falling into apostasy. We are in a "choose this day who you will serve" situation for certain.
I hate to break it to you, but the Church has been falling away from what Jesus taught since the Apostles.
Seeing this gives me a whole new apprecation for the autonomy Churches of Christ practice.
I agree and I'm a Baptist.
Yeah I grew up Church of Christ and am now a United Methodist. No thanks.
I live in Georgia. My church is voting next month , thank you for your informative videos
I'm lucky in that I have never ONCE questioned my faith in God. Despite not attending regularly, and.. admittedly not being the most pious. But, I've never questioned my faith. I have, however, questioned the intents and purposes of those who profess to lead me into His presence and grace.
I had the opposite experience. I questioned my faith from childhood, was absolutely crushed by doubt, while all around me people seemed so happy and confident in their faith. I felt so incredibly guilty and in a way worthless because of that. It contributed to long-term depression. No matter how much I prayed or how much I studied my Bible, I couldn't get over the overwhelming feelings of doubt. I really wanted to be a Christian but it just never worked for me.
If Christianity is true, one explanation is found in Ephesians 2:8-9 that says "faith is a gift from God". I would have to conclude that for some reason known only to God I was not among the chosen and was excluded from that gift-giving.
The other explanation is that none of it is true. I wrestled with this for years and finally had enough and decided I had to study this once and for all and come to a conclusion. I had never examined the arguments of atheists and was only aware of them in a very general way. Now I immersed myself in the subject, reading opposing arguments from apologists and atheists, philosophers and theologians, lay people and ministers. Within a short period of time it became clear to me that there is nothing real about it and Christianity is the same as every other religion, just "made up".
My entire family is Christian, virtually all my friends are Christian, I'm the only atheist. But I appreciate and honor them for the sincerity of their beliefs and their willingness to put their faith into action---but my personal belief is that none of it is real, any more than any other religion around the world is. I don't find the other religions at all convincing, and I'm not convinced by Christianity either.
I grew up Methodist. The church I grew up in, and going to visit my grandmother, it became a Charismatic. I have not been back in over 30 years
If only people would have a relationship with the Lord and His Word, there might be less of compromising with sin and the devil.
Amen 🙏
I think people actually are forming closer relationships with God, which is why these churches are collapsing, they are obsolete to His plan.
thats just it, most people in the UMC first accept that a bishop lies, then accepts gays, then accepts gays as pastors. and then you have a big problem. To be right with the Word, is to declares gays are sinners and have no place in leadership. well, they dont like that. cause who doesnt like having alot of power and no denouncers??
The deadly compromise was in the 60s, with changes to services and the UMC becoming a 501(c)3 corporation. Controlled by the federal government (in the USA). A business, not a church.
Are you gonna cover the upcoming SBC convention and the saddleback controversy?
I am not Methodist, but I play in one of their church orchestras. I get to hear the same sermon twice in a row, so there’s a chance to really examine what’s being said. Usually it’s a lot of words not amounting to much. Maybe it’s time for congregations to form in the same way as the early church; meeting in the homes of other believers. There were early leaders, but it looks like it was a salad bar of different interpretations on the mystery. Institutions arise and suddenly ideas become belief, then dogma. Then your interpretations are suddenly, supposedly mortal sins.
The Whole concept of Dogma and other Church Traditions was started under the belief that Bishoprics were legitimate descendants of the Apostles and were therefore ordained by God through the word of Christ to make binding decisions on subjects involving the Church (Mathew 18:18-20). The issue becomes on the interpretation of Math. 18:18-20 and whether Christ was speaking specifically and exclusively about the Apostles, and the decisions they make during their mortal lives, or if the declarations they made during their mortal lives were included; as they all established proto-bishoprics under their guidance and leadership and likewise ordained fellow members to take control of the faith after their departure, who in turn used the power vested in them through the word of the men ordained by god to lead the faith to ordain other men, thus making the first Churches. Then there is the issue of St. Peter, his disputed Primacy, and the subsequent creation of the Supreme Pontiff in Rome. So, it's up to your own interpretation of the Gospels to decide for your own faith what Christ meant when he called Peter "The Rock upon which I shall build my Church." and What Christ said in Math. 18:18-20 (Also all of what I just said is the exact reason why the Methodist Chruch and all other non-Catholic and Orthodox Churches exist in the first place, so you are not the first person burdened with this bottomless can of worms.)
@@toilet_cleaner_man I grew up Catholic, so I get it from both ends. I’m not going to claim any great insight; I think my most enlightened approach is accepting that the full truth of the matter exceeds human comprehension. I’m bothered by anyone - regardless of what camp they fall into - claiming to have a monopoly on the correctness of what they also refer to as the “mystery”. I’m no theologian, but from where I sat every Sunday it sounds like the apostles themselves had their struggles comprehending the situation and they were handpicked. Personally, btw, I would like to have more from Thomas who wanted ultimate proof of the resurrection and was subsequently offered it. (Most of the time if I heard him mentioned it was snarkily as Doubting Thomas.) If they had their struggles understand, is it so unforgivable to have variations in thought about things not explicitly spoken? In Catholic Sunday school I was told that you can disagree, but you still have to believe exactly what your told. The Catechism handbook of beliefs is as thick as my Bible, btw. Since I’m ranting like a person aimed straight for Purgatory anyway, can I also say that there is a heavy reliance on Paul, who never met Christ. This Methodist breakup being centered around homosexuality; as I understand it, Jesus isn’t mentioned as having weighed in on the subject, but that it was people who came later. People want to point to the Old Testament, fine, but Jesus came to right us, right? Judaism changed on its own with time too. For example, it was once a religion of Mr and Mrs God. If become cynical as I’ve gotten old; I want to know Christ in His way, and it appears that when established groups - with all great intentions of helping people do that - reach a certain size they lose it. Rant concluded, God bless.
Pretty much a similar course like this occurred a few years back when churches broke off from The Episcopal Church USA. Bishops more interested in keeping the property and spiting the congregation than anything else.
Thank you for your succinct explanation.
Wow, this is like drama alert for christian people. Love this channel. Always either informative or filled with the tea
I do have a very serious question about this topic. The Bible clearly has a number of passages about the sinful nature of homosexual acts. Where does it state that homosexual acts are good or acceptable? I understand that Jesus wants everyone to be a Christian and that we should help each other to be better Christians, but didn't Jesus tell a lot of people that while their sins were forgiven, they should go and sin no more?
NT says no fornication (with anyone) ... so pretty much all are fallen, not just gays.
They Bible is also very clear on polygamy and slavery.
If you go all the way then become a Shaker and have no sex at all.
Read the entire Corinthians in context and you will see what it’s intention is. They could not be celibate so he recommended that they partner with one another, and as partners burn off lust but spend the rest of their time dedicated to finding Christ.
I personally would rather see two people dedicate their lives to finding Christ, than getting hung up on this issue.
No church that ignores the Great Commandment will exist in the future, it doesn't matter which verses get quotes at God to justify disobedience of it, the result will be the same.
Only in the Old Testament. You know, the stuff scribbled down by old Jewish guys thousands of years ago...
A church that condones sin is no longer a church but merely a social club.
Most churches nowadays are social clubs and big business.
Meanwhile most of the GMC clergy wear polyester robes.
Bigot
@@owlman_ ok?
Homophobic Churches are pure evil. ua-cam.com/video/Ih2vbJDdQ08/v-deo.htmlsi=hWHMHS2Cdv_arfFh
The ELCA lost one million members over this issue. I am one of them.
5.2 million members when formed has become 3.4 million today!!
here's a video I've been waiting for for like 2 or 3 years
Nothing stops a congregation from just leaving and opening a separate Church building and leaving the UMC with an empty building and a list of unplayed bills.
Finances would be a big issue. They would be unable to sell their previous building to fund their downsizing/relocation.
"And they'll know we are Christians by our splits..." (a sarcastic new take on an old song)
We are known to be Christians when we split from heretical churches that abandon the truth.
I don't see the sarcasm. It is an accurate description.
It will split to infinity until people recognize that they started wrong with the first split due to the failure of human will.
@@rosieokelly Can't say I have any idea what you mean by 'failure of human will'.
@uncensoredpilgrims Men taking authority into their own hands, opposing authority, because he or she knew better. What a mess. Now religion is shaped according to man's wishes, not God's. No wonder Jesus tells us few will be saved. The fruits of human pride...God Bless
Looking into all of this mess is making me hit my brakes on rejoining any official denomination. I can tell right from wrong on my own, but I do miss the community. But too hard to find traditionalist churches where I am.
Same with me.
I understand that we all gravitate to the company of likeminded. But, in reality,
1, Love the LORD thy God with all your heart, mind and soul.
2, love thy neighbour as thyself.
Preach the gospel to all who want to hear it. And live everyday, unto the LORD.
The church can be as simple as a husband and wife. And rear our children to know GOD.
Instead of trying to find a traditionalist church, you should be trying to find the truth. Adhering to a church's traditions will do you no good if they're not based on what the Bible teaches, and it's very obvious from the schisms and theological divorces within traditional Christianity that there is no truth in it. A lot more ppl should be seeing this as a wake up call that something is inherently wrong with traditional Christianity.
if you want a traditionalist church then join the oldest church in the world the Apostolic Catholic Church. where where Peters successors reign. the pope is the Shepard of gods people. the Pope is not god but he is merely gods Shepard on earth. 2 thousand years of tradition are enshrined in church doctrine. the Holy Synod apposes Homosexuality.
@@covfefe1787
Why is this holy synod/sinod catholic church full of homosexual and pedophile priests then???
Church militant reported that as mich as 50% were homosexuals.
Two Pastors
Message for Humility 🤫😉
In my dream, Two pastors were walking down stairs and one pastor asked the other, “Do you know the story of the Apple and the Bee?” The other pastor said “NO” At that point I knew it was a story about pride. The Apple would tell the bee it would not exist without him. The bee would tell the apple it would not exist without him.
I woke up and these words rang in my mind; “Without me, you would not be.”
The proud apple would tell the bee that because of the apple flower pollen the bee gets, it exists and relies upon the apple.
The proud bee would tell the apple it exists because the apple relies upon the bee to pollinate the apple flower.
God then said again, “Without Me, you would not be.
Careful, I'm a member of the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod, we've been getting the snot beat out of us over this issue for years.
Anti-gay bigotry comes with a cost.
This area seems like one of the most complex areas of my faith.
It's the best time ever in my 53 years since becoming a Christian to be one. We are all being filtered, tested, and strengthened by the attacks against our traditions and ourselves.. We are having to find our real strength, Christ within. His life is being manifested in 'we that remain' through this season of cultural reprobation. The church, the Body of Christ' will prevail.
8:55 There always must be a threshold. 2/3 majority was set as the threshold to make it obvious that a significant majority (not just 50% + 1) want to exit.
That number was just to make it more difficult to get a favorable vote. What do you think is going to happen when a congregation votes 64% to leave but the can't under the rules? A lot of those 64% are going to leave and go to another church. Will the congregation be able to survive financially with 50% or less of their members remaining?
@@brownro214 there's always got to be a threshold. If not 2/3 or 64%, then 63% and you complain about the 62% that voted to leave.
The Louisiana Conference voted on May 27,2023 to accept the disaffiliation of 95 churches in the state. That is approximately 40% of all UMC congregations in Louisiana. That is on top of 69 other UMC churches who had already disaffiliated in the last 2 years. UMC in
Louisiana will be almost 50% smaller than it was only 5 years ago.
So the problem of not following the scritptures cuased a rift? What a concept.
This was bound to happen when the UMC website states that the Holy Spirit inspired the authors of the Bible to record truth "to the best of their knowledge". THIS should have been the cause of the split.
LGBTQ issues is the symptom, but the real issues are:
1. Who will control the institutional church (liberals or conservatives)
2. What is the interpretation of scripture (inerrant or inspired)
@@kjorlaug1 You mean inspired AND inerrant, or only "inspired to the best of their knowledge"
@@uncensoredpilgrims no. I meant what I wrote.
@@kjorlaug1 Then you created a false dichotomy.
@@uncensoredpilgrims how exactly? Let's use different words then. Literal versus allegorical
I was raised Methodist. I am sure that there are people of good will on both sides of this schism, and I am sure that there are people on both sides who did not want it to come to this. Such is the tragedy of it all.
Oh, absolutely. There are people on both sides who honestly believe they are right, the other side is wrong, possibly even promoting evil in how wrong they are, and things must change.
Congregation by congregation, this will result in broken personal relationships, as friendships are lost over this. People will quit the church, and not find a new church home, because of either the acrimony, or the feeling that they are no longer welcome, and they are now disillusioned with corporate worship.
Hopefully both, or all, of the resulting denominations come out stronger from it, but I, personally, doubt the one that is chasing secular acceptance will.
People of good will on both sides? One side wants to follow the rules outlined in the Book of Discipline. The other side wants to change the Book of Discipline. The worldwide UMC voted to keep the Book of Discipline as it currently is. The side that wanted to change the rules didn't like the result and began a campaign of intimidation against the congregations that supported the current rules such that many of the latter group asked to leave the denomination. Once enough traditionalist congregations left to swing the remaining membership to majority a change the Book of Discipline, the "leadership" set about making it harder for more churches to leave. The proposal to change the Book of Discipline will come up again in the next General Conference and will pass. The result will be the further decline of the UMC denomination in the US and most of the African conferences will leave altogether. But hey, those bishops will get to keep their cushy jobs.
@@brownro214
They are honest, and earnest, in their beliefs. That is as far as I need to go to say they are of good will. They honestly believe they are fighting the good fight. Within that context, quite a lot is "on the table" that would otherwise be unacceptable.
Now, when they get retaliatory, or exclusionary, they have gone too far. Then, they have become the very thing they accuse the other side of being.
Joshua, you mentioned early in the video that UMC is the 2nd largest besides Catholicism... What about Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox?
Are you counting each expression/ patriarchate as separate? Just curious.
According to the 2020 Orthodox Census, all Eastern Orthodox Churches in the USA combined had 675,765 Adherents. They are not even in the top ten, I doubt in the top twenty. Oriental Orthodox are fewer still.
@@ReadyToHarvest Oh thanks -- I missed 'in the US' at that particular part of the video.
A minority of the Churches will leave, but once a more traditional Methodist denomination finds its way, many of those who stayed in the less traditional churches will switch. I also think the moderation of the message will not increase membership.
I’m glad this split that is happening now within Methodism is mostly in the rear view mirror within Lutheranism. It also helps that the ELCA is a National denomination and that most of its churches who disapprove of gay marriage have already left the denomination for the NALC or LCMC
This is what's called a protestant moment.
Is there a list somewhere online that shows which churches left the UMC?
Grew up in a small Methodist Church. Bishop came and spoke a few times over the years. People swooned when the Bishop came to visit. Politicians, preachers, law enforcement, they are all human beings and when people defer and bow to them they eventually get a big head and trouble results. Some issues are hard and resolution would be helped by leaders with humility that did as much listening as speaking.
Pity and pray for old Christian people forced to leave their Methodist Church and go like Joseph and Mary to be refugees in Egypt. Shame on ambitious deaf and closed to compassion bishops, making these small congregationists new martyrs that deserve better before ending of their lives. I am a Roman Catholic incidentally where the same doctrinal fires burn to no end.
It is less about the number of churches because there are many many small country churches that will never leave because they can’t afford to hire ministers.
Thanks for this video.
What I love about this video is that it's like Actual News we used to have back in the day - I can't tell what your personal opinions are 🙂