Wizards of the Coast Just Ended It
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- Опубліковано 12 жов 2023
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So, by self-distributing, Hasbro can pass down the higher prices to the consumer, making physical books less affordable. Then, the digital media is offered at a more attractive price, and when players stop buying books they can phase out physical altogether, eliminating the middleman completely!
Hasbro, you were a beacon of fun when I was a kid... What have you become?!?
It's called ESG.
@@FMD-FullMetalDragon Environmental, Social, and Governance?
ESG creates a strange dichotomy. They either choose to have investor money, or they have profit and good brand. It is hilarious.😂
Hasbro was never good, they always engaged in scammy behavior, their kids toys are of terrible quality and ride on pre-existing brands as a way to sell.
They just got far worse.
@@aquarius5719 Please tell me more about ESG because searching for it only brought up "Environmental, Social, and Governance" results.
And this is why Greed is the downfall of so many. They let the money control their actions, now they pay for it. Shame, because OG wizards was actually a decent company until Hasbro sunk its greedy hands into the company
Publicly traded companies are a cancer. At least privately owned companies are capable of making decisions that aren't strictly driven by drive for constantly increasing profits.
On the plus side, they can never remove already existing scanned or redistributed pdf copies. I think it's going to be an uphill battle for them the whole way.
Truth.
"A capitalist will sell you the rope to hang them with" - Lenin
@@AndrewJHayford I agree, and I also disagree, respectfully. I would say there are definitely SOME public companies that aren't absolute bastards. HOWEVER, by and large the largest ones, like Hasbro, Sony (at times), Disney, etc... THOSE companies are always getting involved in one scandal after the next, all for the sake of profit and greed. Disney alone screwed up the entire copyright system and fucked over creativity in terms of media all for the sake of their own media empire. Hasbro is ruining WoTC, or what used to be WoTC, and basically destroying their own brand in the process. OG Wizards Before Has to bought it was so much better, because the owners sort of understood what their clients wanted and what their customers wanted. Hasbro destroyed that from day one with their "how can we squeeze the most money out of everyone and still jerk them around like our puppets to buy our crap?" Mentality. Now I will not say that every privately owned company is good, in fact several of them are not. But in the TTRPG and TCG circle of gaming, most of them have been amazing at giving us the kind of the content we've been desiring for years that WoTC and Hasbro have continually screwed us out of
A. Stop buying wotc books.
B. Start getting Kobold PRESS, AAW Games, etc books.
C. Stop covering that trash company
D. Start covering companies that pay attention to their customers.
I agree with all of it, minus the coverage.
The plane is smoking and spiraling, but until we see the wreckage, we can't confirm the kill 😤
I backed the Tales of the Valiant kickstarter, and Kobold Press keep sending me free stuff I wasnt even aware was in the kickstarter. The latest was an adventure Trouble at Mossbeard Mill. Same with the Deep Magic kickstarter. Its nice to work with publishers and game devs who like to make you feel like you are getting value.
So yes, Kobold Press gets a big thumbs up from me.
@@finrothsmith7995 I backed ToV also. I'm excited to get it next year.
My players have been warned that when it comes out, that I will no longer use wotc books.
One person has already pre-ordered ToV.
I agree with you if B was "Start getting OSR products". I recommend any system or books by RPGpundit, the final boss in internet shitlords.
@@finrothsmith7995I thought I heard Kobold is just as woke as WotC? Or am I confused?
Losing their distributing deal with Random House was the final nail in the coffin for TSR back in the 90's, and the thing that allowed WotC to buy them out in the first place. The more things change...
@@mal2kscYeah, but do you really expect the company that still doesn't sell pdfs of the current edition books to be that smart?
@@mal2ksc Not really a profitable option when the PDFs are all up for free online.
I remember that.
It would be karma if it happened again.
Always said WoC/MTG killed TSR in sales and popularity.
MTG was a real rage about the time TSR began to have trouble. Can't buy books if all your money went to buy decks of cards.
Welcome to watching a corporation trying it's damndest to make ridiculously priced virtual merchandise you don't own actually look like a deal compared to having a physical copy of things to do what you wish.
Absolute shame Pathfinder 2e is *super* accessible to players for free (/s). It's marginally less free for dungeon masters, but hey - that's a price I'm happy to pay.
I, despite being a 40+ year RPGer, care not if WotC goes belly up. I still have my collection of 3.x DnD that won't be going anywhere. We still have the OGL and the Creative Commons elements to draw from to make any content that follows those guidelines. D&D may die but long live RGP!
I discovered Dragonlance during my O Level exams in 1988 & started playing in 1990 so i have a lot of AD&D books. I didn't buy 3/3.5 because my best mate bought them all & i got into Pathfinder when that became a thing. My current campaign (playng The Red Hand of Doom) is a mix of 3.5 & Pathfinder as the 2 systems mesh perfectly & we can use the bits we like from both games. Wizards main problem is that all they are going to do is lose new customers. Most of us older players still play their favourite systems which for my group for the most part is 3/3.5 or AD&D or Pathfinder. So we don't really care how much they try to sell us new books for because we're still going to be playing with books we've already had for 10+ years that have been long since discontinued & have no interest in buying overpriced books to keep up with what's new. We do have some 5e but we only use it as an intro to D&D & once newbies get experienced enough they graduate to the older systems for additional campaigns.
This is the way. None of us ever really needed new editions anyway. When your imagination is your canvas the possibilities are endless and beholden to no one.
this tactic doesn't help bring new people, new generations into the game though
I am with you on those points even the age bit . At the end of the day we have our books ,our imagination and hopefully our players so who cares what happens to WotC . I will not be buying One and they can keep on line subscriptions
@@justindegagne Cheap prices on used books, even cheaper ebook reprints, & a never-ending flow of awesome 3rd-party content written for the OGL, help bring new people into the game.
Micro-transactions for powerups, & revisions to existing content that demonstrate an _incredible_ lack of playtested refinement, & lackluster new content that _only works with the badly revised content,_ all drive away more gamers than they attract.
Hasbro isn't attracting more people to the game; they're trying to kill the game in favor of a monetized game that no one asked for, without even making their monetized game any _good._
Hasbro's worst nightmare is the day when players realize that they don't need to buy these products, because D&D is essentially playing make-believe, and that's not something that you can really control. DMs can use whatever version of the game they want. They can buy thirty year old AD&D textbooks for pennies and run a game from that. The only limit is the imagination of the DM and their players.
For now. Regaining exclusive control over selling their content will be next, so sites like drivethrurpg (who's owners also own roll20) are gonna be next on the chopping block. Hasbro/WotC will certainly want to digitally distribute their old D&D games exclusively.
That's why UA-cam videos of people teaching it are made, that's how I learned to run custom campaigns, and as long as 1 person can explain the rules of a previous version, it is still possible for that table to run on thier own
@@orokusaki1243 Possibly, but that won't stop people from selling physical materials second hand or just making pdfs and distributing amongst their gaming table.
@@orokusaki1243except they can't because the OGL and the creative commons exist
@@armorclasshero2103 OGL applies to 3rd edition and later eh? So in reference to the OP mentioning all the ancient D&D stuff: they could very well bring those all back under their own exclusive distribution.
Wizards/Hasbro is steering away from the tabletop hobby, and tabletop hobbyists, whom they view as troublesome and not very profitable. They don't care if they alienate us, because there are relatively few of us, we aren't particularly brand loyal, and they face a growing amount of direct 5e-compatible competition in a shrinking marketplace. They see the future of D&D as virtual, with millions of new customers pouring into D&D fandom through the D&D movie (whoops!) and Baldur's Gate (over 5 million copies sold thru Steam by mid-October). These new, younger customers are used to paying monthly subscriptions and microtransactions, and have no experience playing around a table, so they won't miss the experience. As Wizards/Hasbro sees it, D&D has a bright future, it just doesn't involve groups of friends gathering around tables and rolling physical dice. Basically, they are steering the ship of D&D away from us, and we need to stop caring that it's happening. We're better off with the better quality games and supplements provided by more responsive third-party and indie publishers. The future of the tabletop hobby is also bright, it just doesn't involve Wizards of the Coast.
I mean the whole point is to have fun. Think people are forgetting that part.
@@wanderinghedge I totally agree--playing around the tabletop is by far the superior experience, compared to a VTT. But it's much less profitable for a major corporation like Hasbro. In fact, I think it's pretty clear that Hasbro considers the meatspace-tabletop segment of the hobby too small and unprofitable to be worth any of their attention. They aren't being deliberately mean to us, they just don't care about us either way. We provide them with very little revenue, and their motivation is to maximize profits.
The problem with your stance is that while your right that's what Hasbro and Wizzards want that's not what's going to happen because watching a movie and playing a videogame dosent make someone want to try an entier new form of entertainment they might consume more media from Dungens and Dragons but they won't start wanting to play Dungens and Dragons if you don't belive me ask Marvel how the comic books are doing even after the MCU became the biggest thing on the planet
@@addex1236 This isn't "my stance"--it's Hasbro/WotC's clear intention, based on their actions and public statements, especially to stockholders, over the past year and a half. They may well be wrong; I'm inclined to think they probably are. But they are clearly chasing what they imagine to be a much larger audience of online players that they believe are much more amenable to game subscriptions and repeated microtransactions than most current tabletop hobbyists are. But even if things go perfectly for them, and work out exactly as they hope, they are going to be steering away from us unprofitable tabletop hobbyists, and pursuing a more lucrative online business model.
This is not a problem for tabletop hobbyists in general--we have plenty of excellent material from other publishers, both 5e-compatible and otherwise, to keep us busy for the rest of our lives. The only people who may feel some stress are WotC loyalists among tabletop hobbyists, who are *only* interested in playing "official" WotC D&D products. Those people are going to *have* to migrate online, or wean themselves off of a pure Wizards D&D diet (which, btw, would be good for them!).
This entire scheme is to make more introverts. Technology has pushed people apart so far that they are literally afraid to talk to each other face to face. They need medication for their anxiety for things that most everybody used to do daily.
Introverts invest in buying things, extroverts invest in time with people.
Is just corporate/government greed and its gross.
There are no ice cream trucks in Ireland, that was clearly the sound of one of their similar, but obviously different, whiskey trucks.
We need those in the States!
O.O I want a whiskey truck!
Irish frozen whiskey, a classic dessert.
The Irish were on to something. The Gaelic form of the word whiskey is "uisge beatha" which means "water of life".
Lol!😂❤
It is up to US! YOU and ME to STOP supporting the corporate GREED by not giving them your $$$. It is the only way they will learn. They don't respect their customers, why should their customers respect them? I pay enough monthly bills a month without adding Hasbro/Wizards.
For them you are a walking wallet.
I haven't paid them a dime in about 8 years.
Tbf they don't know their customers. They have ideas about them but only how the customer interacts with the company. You buy from them = you like what they did. You don't buy = try something different.
As a customer you aren't a person, you are a statistic.
Buy 3rd party only
Good luck with drawing a pension that isn't invested in a company seeking profits.
Of course you don't need a pension when your retired and not working. Post alternative suggestions on how to pay for things while retired.
❤
To be honest I'm surprised that this hasn't happened sooner. There's been a rope around the necks of MTG and D&D for years. The damage done the last three years seems to have really started to kick the chair out from under both companies. Then factor in the Hasbro greed machine in an inflated economy was a losing battle on borrowed time.
I've been playing D&D over 35 years, through all the bankruptcies and licensing issues and company switches and mess. One of the biggest reasons I didn't immediately jump on board when 4th edition, then 5th released, was pure buyer fatigue. My older books were still perfectly fine, and when they started releasing multiple issues of a PHB or DMG (all at $35+ each) it stopped being about the hobby and more of a cash grab.
I wish I could say I was surprised by this move, especially given Hasbro's track record, but I'm not. And the surest way for us as consumers to protest is to refuse to play along. There are other options.
Dude... 4th edition is like Bruno from Encanto. We don't talk about it. And 3rd edition? God what a nightmare that was. At nights... I can still smell the bodies in the streets...
That's funny about 3.0+.5. I still play it. Been playing since D&D was soft cover. While it certainly was a bit cumbersome at times, there was so much content you could get, so easily adapt rules to House rules. I was still playing 3.5 upto the Covid scare when our DM at the time was to scared to get together and play in person. I have since moved to a new state and have started a new group. We all enjoy 3.5 just fine.@@Sitharos
That's more or less what I said in another comment. There's no need for multiple editions, especially not now. Maybe a few kinks needed ironing out of the original 70s system, but a completely new edition dropping every few years is clearly a cash grab. What they should focus on is writing adventure modules and stop publishing hundred dollar tomes in the form of player hand books and DM guides. And now of course a lot of this will go online with proprietary software and you won't even own it if you don't know how to get around the lockdown. Ridiculous.
I never made the switch. I still collect my 3.5 and 3rd edition books. Im only missing a handful of the books (outside ebberon or forgotten realms specific books)
Easy Las. Even the Irish can get down on their luck. So get his shoes while your at it.
🤣
Yeah, knick the trainers 🤣
Here's hoping the D&D franchise will be passed on to more responsible hands.
Like Paizo?
@@jomialsipi Naw. Pathfinder's already become its own thing.
@dallasreinhart412 Just move to another game - D&D 5e is not that great anyway, it is almost as bad as 4e. And it is highly unlikely that the new edition will be any better.
There are so many RPGs that are just better - The Dark Eye, Pathfinder, GURPS just to name a few out of a very long list. It's not like the hobby is tied to D&D.
Clearly you don't know how business works.
@@armorclasshero2103 What? Because I didn't say 'Don't hold your breath?"
It didn't need to be said. I know how it works. It sucks, and I wish it would change.
Schmuck.
Creating a de facto price hike for physical media also gives Wizards more room to implement price hikes on their drm-locked digital versions.
I do believe that this is going to lead to a Golden age of piracy when it comes to D&D pdf's and people will print and bind them on their own. I can't wait to see all the hobbyists get to work :D
I wish it would lead to a golden age of rolling your own system, or using one of the hundreds of free ones instead.
I'm just waiting till I have printer to do this lmao
Sooo, 2005 all over again?
At this point, any hardcore D&D player, not just a D&D fan collecting books, but a real D&D player, would just moev over to Torrents to get all of their D&D stuff while Hasbro/WoC finally dies off.
Yep.
Sharing is caring.
I hate to admit it but I might know a guy who did that
@@seanfaherty Why the hate? Just admit it, & recommend it, & do it too. It's the logical _and_ ethical thing to do, even before Hasbro's OGL scandal.
I mean really. Just torrent the books, if anything is digital, its bound to be downloaded from somewhere for free.
hoist the black flag and torrent hasbro into oblivion!!!
Sadly, skeletons will never follow a railroad. They'll just plant themselves up at the boneyard and never leave.
damn those boney boys
A big problem for a DM, but only a minor inconvenience for a necromancer
Fact: if WotC folds, everyone’s books, dice, and character sheets will disappear like some kind of Nerd Rapture.
Quick, convert those dice to play Chaosium, Kobold Press, or other games!
It's the only way to spare them!
As to those character sheets... they will live on in our hearts.
If you don't buy their crap then you won't have to worry about buying their crap. 🏴☠
Instead of pirating switch to the OSR and not only will you not give them money you'll be buying a better product.
@@Richforce1 Both is good. :)
@@Richforce1most of the osr is garbage though
The future is grimdark indeed..
Not brought to you by grimhollow or Drakkenheim
I feel like you should say as an intro "I heard you liked discourse, so I added some discourse to your discourse" and then, of course, when you introduce your inevitable beanie/sock puppet/stuffed toy as a companion, you can say "I added some discourse to my discourse to your discourse..." and then you can say, when the stuffed toy gets a smaller stuffed toy "I added some discourse to their discourse etc,"
This could be a terrible idea, and I may very well have had too much caffeine today.
"Cocks takes care of himself!" is quite a headline. Handy indeed.
Captain, my Captain.
This is why I started work on putting the world I've played in for over a decade onto paper for others to enjoy. We win this by leaving them behind.
10:47 100%. There was a vid i watched awhile back going over the history of D&D. I dont remember what it was called, else I'd link it here. D&D has always gone through cycles where passionate devs make the game great, player count and income increases, marketing and sales folks get promoted (because they are most closely linked to that income number) and replace the devs, company starts making terrible decisions trying to chase the dollar, the sharks leave when the money is gone and the devs who cared enough about the game to stick it out get to make the decisions again. This has resulted in the new editions as the people in charge shape the game to their visions. WotC is trying to push sixth edition, so if we check the historical record, we are into the 'cash-grab' phase. Just as people still play 3e and 3.5, people will still play 5e and 7e might even be good again.
TLDR: WotC may die, but D&D will survive
True. But will there be a company ready to pick up the pieces when WotC has died? We don't know - yet. And will HASBRO let them?
As far as I am aware, WotC and Hasbro can claim IP rights over specific creations, i.e. Strahd, Faerun, Beholders, etc. However, the system itself is a bit trickier. Even if they wish to take the name and trademarks and settings to the grave, the game will remain. @@nanorider426
@@nanorider426there are no pieces to pick up. Hasbro is unlikely to ever let the IP go. They have a long history of just back-benching IPs for a few decades then blowing the dust off after everyone forgets. But there's almost nothing proprietary about D&D which is why there's so many clones on the market.
@@armorclasshero2103 Clones? Or just another fantasy RPG? There were many other fantasy RPG in the 70's and 80's - some better than D&D.
@@nanorider426 Outright clones. Often called retro-clones.
I also would like to point out that, at least here in "the States" that deal with Penguin is part of why you could always find D&D with even your smaller 'Mom and Pop' local bookstores. The same distributor that got them 90% of their books also carried the 'entry drug to TTRPGs' of D&D. (This is also true for the Big Box Book Stores, which is why Barnes and Noble has most EVERY book you could want, but when you look for TTRPGS your choices are D&D, Pathfinder, or _shut up, that's not real._ )
A great many of those stores do not _and will not_ have an arrangement with Hasbro directly for distribution. So, they will go to the secondary wholesalers like Alliance they go to when people (like this crazy guy here, it's me) ask to order specific _not D&D_ TTRPG books.
OR
And I expect this situation more often, not having a relationship with other games wholesalers, many of those smaller stores will simply stop carrying TTRPGs _at all_ and it will lead to it being harder to get new people into the hobby in areas without the giant book retailers.
That's an interesting take. I've never shopped at a chain bookstore; I had no idea they even carried tabletop or pen-&-paper RPG books (though that makes sense). I've always found my books at used-book stores, & game stores...
_Those_ rarely carry anything but D&D\PF & Warhammer, either! In the rare instance a local merchant has any other RPG books, seems like it's only because someone there took an interest, or because a customer unloaded the unwanted portion of a relative's old collection.
One of the increasingly few PPRPG\TTRPG stores around Denver, turned into a Warhammer store, recently. _Just_ Warhammer. I never got into Warhammer because even back in the '80s it felt like a blatant pay-to-play grift: Every player I've ever met had hundreds (if not thousands) of dollars' worth of figurines, & most of them didn't even want to play with people who weren't "serious" enough to buy in... Seeing yet another local store quit the TTRPG business _except Harhammer_ felt like a real shame, but I guess it goes to show where the profit is?
Hasbro clearly hates the sell-once model that printed publishers tend to end up in; even 3rd party sellers like DriveThruRPG are sub-optimal in their eyes; they'd much rather lease content-as-a-service through their own internet-based gateways, & shift all their core materials to a continuous revision model (like textbooks), so that anyone wanting to use their new content needs to "buy" the newest core material, too.
Hence their attempt to kill the 5e OGL (& failing that, at least instill enough doubt that content creators are afraid to publish under the OG OGL): 5e OGL content works with the old books _and they don't want that._ They want everyone to need their new books, & they were hoping to yank the old OGL so that 3rd parties would be forced to publish under usurious new agreements. If they'd succeeded in deprecating the existing D&D 5e books, they would've had a captive market for their modernized pay-to-play service model.
Exactly. That deal put the game on shelves it wouldn't have been on without it. Without it, we lose a huge opportunity to get new players into the hobby.
@@prophetzarquon1922 As a 4-year-college survivor, this comparison to the scam of constantly updating textbooks to kill the used market makes too much sense not to make me angry. I felt like BG3 was going to be a great avenue to lead new people into the TTRPG hobby, too, but only the most desperate and dedicated are going to want anything to do with this new "service" model
A lot of them already have, and FLGSs are already dying and will continue to die off as the economy at-large continues to decline.
D&D is the most largest system in the ttrpg space by a _massive_ margin and the social side is the biggest barrier to entry; the total ttrpg playerbase is *tiny* by entertainment standards, and some places like the USA are extremely spread-out further limiting options. Finding other people to play the same system, at the same place/platform, at the same time, for a relatively similar engagement/experience is difficult or untenable for more of the ttrpg playerbase than not. D&D's (and to some extent, _only_ D&D's) playerbase size makes it far easier to find people who play, or at to convince people to play a game that they have at least _heard_ of.
Given that the entire industry saw an unsustainable bubble with the lockdowns that the industry took for granted, the industry and playerbase is probably going to shrink back down to levels marginally higher than what they were pre-lockdown. If D&D also goes into a decline from bad business decisions... that is a mass-scale reduction in the primary entrypoint for ttrpgs writ large.
I don't know where you live in the US, but it sounds like fifteen years in the past to me. The Big Box chain stores killed all but two of our small indie book stores well over a decade ago, and and then either collapsed entirely (Borders) or transitioned into trying to survive by filling the Toys 'R Us niche (B&N). They sure don't carry much in the way of actual books any more, not even 5e books. Plenty of family games and puzzles though. And enough graphic novels and manga to be steadily endangering the few local comic shops that survived the collapse of the speculator boom in the 90s.
"Value Pricing" has been the norm for decades. It is not about what it costs the producer, it is about how much the consumer will pay. I think the books are already selling at the upper limit of the range. Hasbro/WOTC will likely charge retailers roughly the same price, just pocket more of the margin.
To be fair, $55, while a reduction from the stock's previous value, is not a low price for public stock.
Also, I wouldn't be surprised if Hasbro intends to run WotC into the ground, reducing the brand to ignominy. They've done it before. As a Boomer, I remember when Tonka trucks were high-quality, nigh-indestructible toy construction and service trucks made of sheet steel with full working capability. You could make those trucks do everything their real-life counterparts did (within reason), which was awesome for kids. Soon after Hasbro (which had been a producer of five and dime knock-offs) merged with Tonka, the quality fell off immensely. Now Tonka trucks are injection molded garbage.
I remember my yellow steel Tonka truck.
Damm thing was indestructible and I loved it
I remember their commercial in the '70s had an elephant standing on one. But if it doesn't break, then you don't need to buy a new one.
Their corporate greed also ruined Transformers.
no, but it's still in decline. 3 weeks later it's $43, while it was $73 2 months ago. still not bad, but a massive decline. far from the $120 they were at back in 2019, or the $100 they were at last year. back at the old Pre-Critical Role prices.
Capitalism isn't about profit, it's about control.
This is great news for small-house indie publishers. The more Hasbro squeeze gamers for money, the more likely we are to seek viable and less costly alternatives.
Guess this means there is now a new PATH to FIND(er) when it comes to ttrpg
That isn't really what ever happens when companies do things like this. D&D has disrespected its players, its parent company called thugs to harass random UA-camrs, and they've even been caught with their pants down while putting AI art in a book they sold to people for money. And even STILL, D&D is the most popular TTRPG of all time. For another example, look at how badly Pokémon treats its players.
@@inferno1234561 Pathfinder is neither small nor indie though.
There are some really inspired products out there in indie publishing. Even if I weren’t disgusted by WotC, I’m not sure 5E would be keeping up, anyway.
@@damienthonk1506 well my rebuttal to this is what about games workshop, with 3D printers becoming more advanced the easier it is to get these models needed to play stuff like 40k or fantasy and combine this with the ridiculous prices and you got people moving towards 3rd party retailers or even doing it from home if they have the time and money.
Plus, the amount of people playing DnD isn't the same as the amount of people playing a video game, you don't need to buy all the baubles that WOTC makes in order to play it, you just need the rules, a way to keep track of character movements and players to play DnD, and each of them can be substituted either by being creative or finding alternative sources. With a video game you are forced to play by the company's rules, if that gun has a spawn rate of 5.9% that unless you either buy it from another person or risk your banning by cheating then you have to buy that loot box or buy that skin. But with open tabletop games you can McGyver up a solution on the spot, don't have a model for a demigorgan? Boom this potted flower is now that. Need something to symbolize a tower? use a tin can. And what if your players are from around the world? Well other TTRPG software exists both free like roll20 and more indeth but costly ones like tabletop SIM.
They don't just need to control the book, they need to control the word of mouth as well, and anything pass mass torching of the fanbase is going to stop this.
Wizards of the Coast fucked around. Now they're finding out. Seems like everything is in order here.
*Hasbro. Shit rolls downhill, WotC isn't great but it's daddy Hasbro trying to wring every last penny out of them because their other shit doesn't sell making these decisions.
The ultimate goal for Hasbro is to encourage as many people as possible to pay a subscription for access to the game digitally and to pay microtransactions for anything beyond the basics.
The books will still exist as an onboarding tool but will be expensive and predominantly for collectors.
You can spend $300 on the core books or play digitally for a mere $9 per month (+ microtransactions for anything beyond the basics)
Jokes on them, I do play subscription games.
I don't think we will see too much of a price hike, at least not to the level you are implying. You have to take into account that whilst Penguin was able to negotiate for lower prices they also added in their own profit margins when forwarding the books to the retailers. That middle man step is being removed from the process. Having worked in retail for almost 30yrs I know that removing a third party can just as often cause things to become cheaper by the time they reach the shelf. I think we need to wait and see how this plays out and drop the fear mongering.
@@wanderinghedge I am so glad to read this message. I am a YuGiOh collector myself and like you I have learned to grade my own cards. I have sold hundreds of cards over the years, all self graded, and never once has anyone come back and complained the grading was wrong. I have even sold to other professional graders who agreed with my grade. I fully appreciate that it is beautiful to see your favourite card fully encased in a sealed display from the likes of PSA but it is not necessary for the resale market.
Third party groups in any franchise is just a scam at the end of the day and this has been proven time and again in everything from sports to retail. Cut out the third party companies across the board, they are not needed and if you take the time to sit back and look at it they are always just some random un-informed idiots who charge you for a service you dont actually need.
If it were another company I might agree, but Hasbro/WotC over the past few years have repeatedly followed that pattern. Why wouldn't they now, when doing so would be directly beneficial? They'd just be driving up digital sales, which is thier direct and stated focus at the moment.
The replacing your players with skeletons/railroad joke was awesome.
It was a joke?
;)
"One moment, ice cream" is going to end up being used by an upcoming villain in a D&D session. This, I swear!
I couldn't of afford most of this stuff in 1st place & now it's going up just crazy, Remember this folks no one needs these companies all u need is a pencil & paper & ur imagination. Take hold of the universe inside you.
I don’t care how successful Hasbro can monetize D&D, it’s not a big enough hobby to sustain a large corporation indefinitely. With every one of these actions, Hasbro is showing how desperate they are to squeeze every nickel out of their customer base. At some point they will hit a wall with their excesses and drive away more customers than they attract with all of their fancy bells and whistles.
Hey don’t we still have giant piles of 5e books? Oh cool. So wizards can go away
DCC any one?
It's not that simple. People still have piles of 2nd edition books. But people also want rules that aren't shit. In 5-10 years, when what we deem normal and acceptable in gaming has changed, your 5e books are going to have little value to anyone else but you. But there's also the fact that Wizards is the 900 lbs gorilla in the room. Say there are 100 million players, and 60 million are playing D&D. If you take away D&D, that 60 millions doesn't get redistributed back into the other 40 million. You're just left with 40 million players. The market has now been cut by two-thirds because we no longer has the visibility that is continually bringing in new players. Ask anyone what D&D is and you'll get some answer. Ask anyone what Shadowrun is and you'll get strange looks. You can put D&D into a fantasy show or a sitcom or a podcast and people will kind of know what it's about. You're unlikely to see Shadowrun in those things and have it have any impact.
Old school TSR D&D rules were actually better than 5E.
Ice Cream!!!
So, just to point out as a Hasbro shareholder, the stocks haven't hit an all time low at all, or even in the past 52 weeks.
Regardless, as someone who started an LLC and has been working on a sourcebook and module for the past 7 months this is amazing news. Hearing the community, they're tired of the official content but not the game. For us GMs who have been playing this game already with our own homebrew and the OGL (if even that), the time is now to capitalize on Wizards fumbling and make our homebrew the "Product Identity" that Wizards is so concerned about preserving!
Thank you as well, Dungeons & Discourse, you've helped me and my business keep up to date with the Clowns of the Coast!
My answer, twenty five or so years ago was to run the games I knew and owned and ignore the chronic rehashes that Gygax himself had nothing to do with it after his divorce and his ex getting control. I've seen several tables who took the came course- not just with D&D itself but Shadowrun also. My late friend and long time DM gave me many great times and memories; I'm not playing actively any more, but I hold and finger my original D&D books- tired, old, frayed, well loved. Neither Hasbro or Wizards can kill D&D, not really, as long as one of us still treasures it.
3:10 Wow, actually lined up well!
nothing half-assed!
@@dungeonsanddiscourseVery Effort!
I dont know how she did the maths.
If Hasbro decides to distribute d&D themselves it doesn’t mean that the price is going to grow, it just means that they are going to get higher margins on their product.
I don’t see how this will automatically make the price go up.
Because why let facts get in the way of outrage and anger over a company wanting to save money?
She surely thinks all LGS should sell every product at cost, right?
To be fair, NORMALLY, when you cut out the middle man, you get lower prices.
Likely, the cost of books won't increase or decrease, but Hasbro will just get a bigger profit margin....I hope.
Now, where's my eyepatch and peg leg....
"We want to unlock the type of recurrent spending we see in video games"
But you have... people will get new stories and minis and other stuff every now and then and that's more than enough.
Video game with recurrent spending forced into them are why we hate the state of the video games industry and have been for a while now...
As someone who plays both video games and TTRPGs, I agree 100% with this statement if any game just randomly interrupts me to force me to give them money I’m out. I already spent enough money why are you forcing me to pay more money to play a game I already own? At this rate they may as well start blatantly asking the playerbase for their credit card info if they’re really that greedy.
Sounds like hasbro is in danger of experiencing a spike in pirating, proportionally to an increase in product pricing.
Spoiler: I have never purchased any of the D&D books or content from Wizards/Hasbro. I stopped buying D&D content back when TSR screwed me and all the SPI customers.
Here's the open secret: YOU HAVE WHAT YOU NEED. You don't need 5.5 if you have the 5e source books. Just because millionaires say you need new books don't mean you need new books. Hasbro is capitalizing on your greed and envy. You don't have to go there.
not like finding a PDF of current books is difficult. theres enough now to reflavour for whatever you need really.
People like you are wrong. DnD is not just some gameplay rules and bunch of classes. It is whole Forgotten Realms universe too. It is our beloved characters. It is Baldurs Gate's setting. Bunch of amateurs just cant create a compelling and cohesive setting and write books with characters for it. I dont want to play tabletop in DnD setting because its authors actively trying to destroy it. I want to play tabletop that is actively being developed. Where its world's story continues, and not stuck in time. Where new books, series, games getting released. For now Pathfinder and Cyberpunk RED/2077 looks to be like that, i will gladly play companies that are setup there. Wont touch dnd anymore, it is dead to me. Dont even want to ever play new video game in that setting too. Because what is the point?
@@Altmer353Saying someone is wrong to have a different opinion from you isn’t correct, either. There’s a whole community of homebrew creators out there. My group has a few that love to make their own worlds or make interesting stories in an existing setting. One made a Hunter’s House in Luyarnha, a world built in the Steinhardt’s Guide 3rd party book, but that same person is also making a survival world all her own that we’re going to play in some day, and another guy in the group made a modern/fantasy setting that everyone enjoys using, and his creations are all homebrew. I’ve created a bunch of homebrew myself and will be using it very soon. I understand wanting to stick to a world that’s being built by the creator: It allows you to have a solid foundation to build your own stories in (or maybe you use company adventures too because you just really love them), but that doesn’t make people who use the rules, classes, etc to build their own stuff inherently “Wrong,” it’s just not how you (and possibly your friends) like to play.
But... but.. I gotta consume product!
There are other worlds out there besides Forgotten Realms. There are LOTS of other campaign settings and truckloads of free adventures. And yes, a single DM can create a whole world. An incredibly detailed world. You absolutely DO NOT need to keep buying material from WotC. Most of what they produce is crap anyway. @@Altmer353
Bob Mammon is super-happy with this. Dungeons and Dragons *is* TTRPGs in the minds of, well, everyone. Effectively everyone. And that's why Hasbro Wizards is totally cool with all of this.
And that's why it needs to be wrench out of Hasbro's rotting hands.
the little checking of the progress bar was legit
It's entirely possible Hasbro could fulfill to Target et al at the same price as Penguin and do it for less than the margins they were giving up to Penguin. WOTC already has non-book distribution with all these retailers (Penguin ain't buying 10,000 copies of Monopoly)
This is what I'm not understanding about all the reactionary takes about the PRH thing. Hasbro could use this to sell books to retailers at higher prices, but they could also do so at the same or even lower prices. Even if they kept the prices the same as PRH sells at, Hasbro will have already increased margins by whatever PRH's margin was.
@@CheezMonsterCrazy Yeah, Hasbro will set the MSRP at whatever they please and that's what the customer will be stuck paying no matter how many middlemen are involved. This feels lots more like Hasbro trying to cut PRH out of the money chain so that they can use their already-existing distribution channels (which they therefore don't have to pay to establish) to charge wholesaler prices instead of distributor prices, increasing the per-book revenue for them _without_ having to raise prices to the consumer. Then they can just go and stick it to the consumer later, but those two things aren't meaningfully connected.
These reactions don't make sense to me. The free market determines the optimal price of goods, not the company. If Hasbro sees increased revenue after increasing prices, that's because there is demand. If there's no demand, then there will be no increase in price. It's not as simple as "bigger price, bigger money." No amount of corporate greed will change the principles of economics, so the outrage seems misguided.
@@dezopenguin9649 Exactly. This is just one big ass corporation hurting another big ass corporation, and frankly not even all that much. The only reason PRH even cares is that they (and the other big book houses) don't like the idea of anyone bypassing them to put books on shelves.
Yeah. In fact, if you have the distribution capacity, cutting the middleman might even lower prices (or increase the margins). And Penguin is not a charitable company, far from it. I think this video misses the point a bit. However, I do agree there's the risk of Hasbro's business model shifting from hard copy books to digital ones, decreasing the production of the later.
Irish and a mugger? That's a scary combination!
A fairly redundant one if you ask me...
*Taps shillelagh agianst open palm and whistles the tune to Whiskey in the Jar while following you down a damp and creepy side street.*
Let me take a different perspective perhaps for a moment... Hasbro has now cut out the middle man (Penguin) and are selling directly to retailers. Without knowing the price Penguin was selling their negotiated pricing from Hasbro to the retailers, removing them in this situation could actually provide cheaper prices to the retailers (and ultimately the wider public). Without more data, I'm not sure we can make the assumption that this will cause prices to rise for us - since actually there are less companies (Hasbro -> Penguin (out) -> Retailers -> Public) touching the product before it gets to us which may actually reduce the overall price.
If you believe that, I have some bottom land to sell you. Just don't ask what it's on the bottom of.
@@schroecat1 The most likely result is they will sell directly to big box and large book stores at the same rates those retailers were getting before while growing their profits with the 10-20% mark up Penguin was gaining by being the middleman. Hasbro already does this with other IP so ultimately it was inevitable.
@@verticalfracture That is true, but it absolutely *will not* result in cheaper prices. The prices will remain the same, or even potentially go up, so that Hasbro can massively expand their profits.
@@schroecat1 the price is already at the top of what the market will pay. Dropping the middle man will give them 20% in additional margin which is a massive expansion of profits.
Hasbro: "Man, we goofed up!" (Grabs shotgun and aims at other foot) "This'll fix it!"
I discovered Dragonlance during my O Level exams in 1988 & started playing in 1990 so i have a lot of AD&D books. I didn't buy 3/3.5 because my best mate bought them all & i got into Pathfinder when that became a thing. My current campaign (playng The Red Hand of Doom) is a mix of 3/3.5 & Pathfinder as the 2 systems mesh perfectly & we can use the bits we like from both games. Wizards main problem is that all they are going to do is lose new customers. Most of us older players still play their favourite systems which for my group for the most part is 3/3.5 or AD&D or Pathfinder. So we don't really care how much they try to sell us new books for because we're still going to be playing with books we've already had for 10+ years that have been long since discontinued & have no interest in buying overpriced books to keep up with what's new. We do have some 5e but we only use it as an intro to D&D & once newbies get experienced enough they graduate to the older systems for additional campaigns.
+1 for this. I'm four years ahead of you but same difference. ;)
Feck me this is tight. I thought it might be semi positive, didn't think of how it's essentially reinforcing a monopoly. 😮
In the end, the game belongs to all of us. We are all capable of playing d&d without giving them a single dime. If they make things too ridiculous, the thing that will happen is that Wizards and Hasbro will feel the pinch while the rest of us continue playing d&d without their permission because we don't need it.
Correct! The OGL is more than good enough to build a foundation of your own for which to make OGC for everyone or to develop and sell as your own "Product Identity". The fools have given us the tools to sink them, it's just a matter of third party content growing in popularity, which will always come in time so long as Wizards will keep trying to bring in new players.
The most interesting D&D content lately has been third-party anyway. I'll be ecstatic if we can ever just take the whole core framework free and public domain, but even now I can find material to better suit how I play outside WotC..
That hand gesture to check the time left on the video - priceless.
I wonder if the Washing State AG went public with charges? That would cause this type of chain of events.
Not to sound like a Dalek here, but...
ELABORATE!
@@opscontaylor8195 D&D Beyond is not ADA ( disability ) compliant, federal fines are 150K each, per violation, its a 150M dollar website, Washington can make several million dollars enforcing the state and federal law against WOTC.
Hopefully they do collapse, and no one picks up the pieces. Let DnD become public domain as it should be, let the people, the ones that actually use and care about the setting, write it as they please and let the canon be currated by personal choice and loving fans.
5e is already public domain, so it doesn't matter anyway. They can do what they want, we literally don't need them now anyway
Stick with it and keep us all updated. You are doing awesome work and I can't wait to see what you have in store next.
by cutting out Penguin house, they **could** be cutting out the middle man, increasing the margin that Penquin House would take as its cut, and sell the books to retailers directly at the same price by leveraging Hasbro's existing distribution arm and bundling it in with negotiations that those retailers make with Hasbro for toys etc. I dont see cutting out Penguin House necessarily **has** to increase price to the retailer or the consumer, though it is likely based on their track record. Still, i'm not certain I see this making a significant impact for at least several years.
I see. Well, this will murder independent stores.
With Magic, they just don't care about the game anymore, competitive or otherwise, and they're focusing instead on selling cards boutique-style, that is they're increasing the output of way too overpriced products which only reason to be so is even more artificial scarcity and special artwork, and use of third party IP's.
It's also just, the fucking BARRAGE of new cards 24/7 365. It's too exhausting to give a shit about.
I always assumed Chris Cocks' name was spelled "Cox". I was wrong, but it fits so well, I'll allow it.
Ice for the ice god! Cream for the cream throne!
I saw this coming. I also see that they will move to collectable books only. $100+ a pop. Everything else PDF online micro-transaction etc. Only problem is this is a lot like the comic industry plan which, has been a abject failure. So, yeah. Not likely to go well.
The comic book plan of which decade?
The thing is as a distributor Random/Penguin (RHP) they do negotiate the cost/unit they also have contractual discounts built into there relationship to retail stores as well that has to be built in. Yes it removes RHP taking a cut but it loses so much in logistics, distribution, sales support and ease for the stores to access product. It also allowed speciality stores to access RHP product beyond the game manuals. It’s a (shockingly) short sighted decision and will bite them in the ass unless they have a dedicated worldwide sales staff talking up their products on every sales call. This is how you restrict access and hurt every independent game and book store out there. It’s really going to come down to what the margin will end up being as if it’s too low , stores will now carry. Why waste shelf space on something I may may $10 off of and use it for product I make $20. (Simplified example-I know).
Exactly. Now add to that the stars Wizards has in its eyes to increase profits. Their costs are going to go up, and they're going to want to make even more money doing this, so they're going to raise sticker prices. Welcome to paying probably 20% more for something that's already really overpriced.
@@ScooterinABthey already raised the price last month or so, where you been?
You assume that the end goal is equitable. Wizards has dreamed about killing friendly local gaming stores for decades.
@@armorclasshero21031. I play other games.
2. That's not what I said. I'm not talking about a single price increase. I'm talking about a heavy price increase beyond what things already cost.
Cut that goose open, GET THE GOLDEN EGGS NOW!
Lol.
Price is determined by the interaction of demand and supply forces, not just supply. If the price of dnd books becomes too much then we will see increased sales in Pathfinder, Kobold Press etc. In the medium to long term this will enable a competitor of Hasbro to build their own RPG generic digital platform like DnD Beyond and we may finally see the competition we need to end the Hasbro RPG Monopoly.
This actually proves this is a good time to dump a bunch of money into Hasbro's stock because it's going to climb again after they're done shorting it 🤓
This is the way my friend. Play stocks in the markets you're already knowledgeable about. Hasbro pays dividends every 3 months, $0.70 a share is nothing to scoff at when you're looking at earnings.
The death of Wizards and D&D is the best thing that can happen to the Roleplay community. There is a ton of roleplay systems that are miles better than anything Wizards has ever come up with or ever will come up with.
sure just not ones that are set up to be easily affordable
D100 is affordable
@@deviousluxray5935 TO my knowledge, the only one less affordable than D&D5e is Pathfinder. There is a ton of systems that are objectively cheaper than anything Wizard or Paizo has brought forth. They just don't get as much advertisement.
Ah Wizards... Evil is Evil. Lesser, greater, middling… Makes no difference.
I really appreciate that the video bar that pops up at 3:11 was perfectly synced with my pc's UA-cam bar
Gary Gygax created D&D and thus TSR was born. TSR was struggling but managing to keep their heads above water. Wizards of the Coast acquired TSR and saved them. D&D moved forward and grew and expanded. At a certain point Wizards of the Coast needed more capital than they were generating to continue expanding. Hasbro acquired Wizards of the Coast and saved them. Hasbro has been milking Wizards of the Coast for years to boost their stock price. Now the economy has gone to s**t and no one has money to buy games and Magic cards. There’s no one to save Hasbro. Instead of whining about corporate greed, people should be thinking about what will happen to the overall tabletop gaming environment if one of the biggest tabletop gaming companies in the world takes a dive. If you think the economy will be any kinder to small independent game companies you’re deluding yourself. If anything you may see more small independent game companies being acquired by the big players
As a game store I get far better service and support from GW than any other distro or publisher.
Missing the point. WOTC is slowly going to pull out from all disty deals and sell direct 2 consumer.
@@GamerDude-no1ki they will never just sell direct, the big box stores move too much product for that. They will just cut the margins down so small that no LGS can survive selling their product. You will see every game but magic being promoted in LGS going forward.
@@mikegrant8031 Correct.
Big box
Amazon
Their site
Arena
*Proceed to compulsively scour the internet to find the last few PDF i'm missing for my collection*
As much as I've enjoyed playing D&D or MTG over the years, I can't say that I'd miss WotC if and when they go belly up... which honestly, hopefully happens soon.
Someone else will just buy the IP for both games. It's very popular still.
@@deadmanmouse2463 Fair point.
MtG is the 1 thing that keeps Hasbro afloat. WotC isn't going anywhere.
It's time to raise the black flag, It's piracy time.
Random House is the largest distribution network for books in the world. They have the clout to prevent retailers from carrying Hasbro products. Penguin is a publisher, so they were the ones printing the physical books for Hasbro.
Hasbro just shot themselves in the foot.
Look, when a friend/party member dies, you can either spend multiple thousands of gold pieces in diamonds to bring them back to die again, or spend like 50gp to _animate dead_ and now they actually *do what you tell them to do!* Looks like an easy decision to me. 💀
Once again, at the risk of sounding repetitive, the solution to all these issues is and always has been G.U.R.P.S
That's an odd way to spell HERO.
@@twincast2005 That's an odd way to spell _Savage Worlds_ ...
oh no how horrifying, we'll have to play better games :shocked:
I went to L.A. once, got to visit a Hobbit Dungeon. Best $35k I've ever spent, and as a bonus I learned what you could do with whipped cream and an unhealthy lack of boundaries.
I don't belive it I've dumped 800 dollars into magic in the last 2 years alone
Broo u a man lmfao
I could tell at first glance 😂 Jawline was a dead giveaway
I guess we’ll just have to end capitalism 🤷♀️ I won’t be buying D&D books again. Mostly after the last dumpster fire but this just reaffirms it.
I think you mean Corporatism.
@@lodunost nope. I meant capitalism. And I will always mean capitalism. ✊
@@doejersey Corporatism, not capitalism, is the root of social harm. Corporatism is an enemy of the free market. The aim of a monopolist is to eliminate competition, not embrace it.
But I would love to hear how the elimination of Capitalism will work. I would love to hear your definition as well.
Someone really should tell hasbro/wotc that the book of vile darkness was not meant as a CEO training manual.
You earned a sub for that time bar bit. Simple. Effective. Brilliant.
Playing DUNGEON CRAWL CLASSICS!!!!!!!
Great system. Good choice.
"And now for something... completely different. (cue music)"
The expectation that all corporations must constantly increase their profitability year-on-year kills otherwise successful businesses. Because that demands constant squeezing of suppliers, employees and customers, and they ultimately end up squeezing too hard and breaking something important.
So we're cutting out one of the middlemen, and the only possibility is the end price will go up? It is possible they can charge more than PHR charged them, but less then PHR charged the retailers. Middlemen always take a cut.
D&D really has horrible luck with women that have the last name Williams.
I have a whole collection of hardcover 3.5 Dungeon master and monster books on my shelf.
THESE WIZARDS WILL NEVER TAKE MY 3.5 RULES FROM MY COLD, DEAD HANDS!
Send dragons, orcs and basilisks! I will defend 3.5 rules TO THE DEATH! I will never surrender! Bring it on!
thank god i play 3.5 and have most of the books produced and haven't needed to rely on the company for material in over 2 decades....
I'd just note that D&D is already more expensive than most other TTRPGs - The MSRP of the last physical book of another game I purchased is $25. Not 'for the player's guide' either, because unlike D&D that book contains the player rules, the GM section, and a bestiary (plus actual rules for making your own creatures for the game), all within the same book. Tasha's Cauldren, meanwhile, is $30 from Amazon (so the MSRP is likely higher than that because Amazon is usually able to offer significant discounts due to having reduced operating costs compared to brick-and-mortar retailers)
They've been on a path towards the GW model of fan abuse for a long time.
But it works.
As long as you aren't a fan.
But if you are an investor ... yeah, that's the stuff!
Lol Always get a laugh out of these type of videos. "It's the End TImes!" "Game Over, Man!" Pure speculation.
The future is somebody getting 20 friends that want the book and split the cost and copy the books 😅.
That was a very informative video. It saddens me to see this happening to a game that I've always wanted to play... When the video first started I couldn't quite tell if you had an accent or not, but once I heard the Irish symphony playing in the background in parts, I got it lol. I'd never heard an Irish accent like that before. It's different than what I'm used to around the internet. Lol :) Cheers Mi Amiga!
In Germany discounts on books don’t exist. It’s called “book price binding” and is enforced by law. Only exception is, if the book is damaged. Then it can be sold at less than the original price. So I guess we won’t feel any difference here…