So This Is Why Marvel Is Failing
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- Опубліковано 30 чер 2024
- This Video Essay covers why the Marvel Cinematic Universe hasn't been the same since Avengers: Endgame... #marvel #mcu #marvelstudios #superheroes #avengers #endgame #infinitywar #videoessay #deadpool3 #ironman #captainamerica #thor #spiderman
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Why Marvel is failing
The problem with the MCU
Why did Marvel fall off
Why Marvel hasn't been the same since Avengers: Endgame - Фільми й анімація
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What brand is the lapel mic your using?
Marvel never had great movies. They may have been entertaining, but they were never very good.
Call this a hot take but imo the fall of MCU started with Endgame outside of Iron Man’s sacrifice the little fight scenes they have and use of mad nostalgia the movie was literally mid and unnecessarily 3 Hours.
I know a lot of people love Endgame but man that movie was mid. Marvel both peeked and died with that snap at Infinity War, outside of Spider-Man No Way Home majority of the Films and shows have been mid, bad or ok a best.
@@zolod.uchiha5102 I never cared for Avenger's: Infinity War either. I knew that all of the characters who had perished after the snap were going to come back, especially Spider-man. because Marvel had not finished milking his character yet with more sequels. So, any cathartic tension that moment may have provided was fleeting at best.
And Spider-man No Way Home was an awful, and plotless movie.
You forgot to mention that Hawkeye appeared in Thor 1
The pandemic was a perfect time for them to sit down and plan out for the future. They blew it tbh.
I have a feeling that the pandemic is gonna be the excuse for alot of crap we have to deal with for some time to come.
They should have actually waited till 2023 to release the next movie so we could feel that Endgame time skip.
I disagree with is videos viee that it is the quantity that's causing the death of the mcu.
it's not quantity it is WOKE DECONSTRUCTION .
everything Hollywood is producing at the minute is deconstruction, look at the last Indiana Jones movie....
look at Star Wars the Acolyte.
look at phase 4 of the mcu....
Every character has been deconstructed Hulk, Thor, Hawkeye, The Loki deconstruction is horrendous.
And what are they put in their places?
cartoon cut out non-realistic girl boss females token characters that don't represent any of the qualities of a woman.
often the worst qualities in men betrayed as heroic.
if you look at Captain Marvel as a character, she's ACTUALLY the VILLAIN.
this is what killed:
the MCU.
Star Trek
Star Wars
Doctor Who
and anything else western entertainment has got to offer.
wokeisms "THE MESSAGE" destroyed popular culture.
I would say the pandemic made them panic. At the time NO ONE knew what the future of cinema was gonna be or how long it would be until we could all go back. So they pushed the shows 2 fold to account for the loss in movies. It makes sense because there seemed to be a alot of shows lined up compared to movies, as they didn't seem to know which characters would be introduced in movies vs shows. I feel like they threw whatever they could to see what stuck and tried to make guesses on what might work. Like Ms Marvel, She Hulk, Echo, Secret Invasion, they must have thought they'd be all hits. Clearly not. Moonknight was the only new character which seems to work.
plandemic*
It's not the quantity, it's the quality that matters.
Glad they're slowed down a little this year, hopefully they push some 2025 projects back.
Ye soo true
One reason the quality has dropped is because the quantity is too high.
You nailed that!
Exactly. People keep making that goofy claim about quantity being the problem; meanwhile, TV shows like Supernatural had 15 seasons and people out here STILL asking for more.
Yes, Marvel movies always required homework… but I used to enjoy doing that homework. Now it feels like a chore
Its not that....its that the movies SUCK and they are WOKE.
@@willw3736 then you're just confirming what he's saying. The homework is watching movies to understand new ones. Like you said, the movies now suck so it feels like a chore now. Being woke has definetly been a distraction from making and actual good movie.
I also think it sucks because this homework is paid. Yes sure, before you had to buy dvds or something but now you are constantly linked to Disney+. I don't want to pay for that. I watched Loki, WandaVision, Whatif (first) and then Hawkeye and Loki 2. But its too much trouble to have an ongoing disney subscription to "stay updated"
@Follow God:God loves you repent it will be worth it God bless you all💕💜♥️❤❤
It’s that if I wanna watch a newer project that I’m interested in I have to do some homework, and most of the homework just stinks and there’s so much of it, so I’m never going to do it and hence I’m never going to see any newer projects
"How many MCU montages do you require for this video"
Yes
lol
@Follow God:God loves you repent it will be worth it God bless you all💕💜♥️❤❤
Kinda annoying imho
Basically, Marvel is failing because they put all of their energy into the Infinity Saga and didn't envision any plans for after, so now they're just winging it.
They could have taken the time to plan out their next major set of moves. To set out to adapt some major arc from the comics yet unmined for content. People would have waited, wanting more and then when they were ready, could have gotten the hype train rolling anew. They did not.
Losing Black Panther was a big blow, T'challa could've been the next central figure that Disney can dump their politics at and have the side characters deal with the gender politics.
@@GenJuhrurumor has that they were trying to replace Chadwick Boseman with the actress after black panther 2
nah. they went politics over story. thats the reason.
In an alternative universe, it did happen.
Hawkeye was also in the first Thor. People seem to forget that. It was more than a cameo, but didn't leave much of an impression.
Beat me to it 😂
They arent good thats the problem. black widow was too late and kind of lame
The problem with that first cameo is he was simply called Barton. But yeah, 5 appearances, not just 4 through Endgame.
It’s understandable that he would be missed in the list as only nerds like you and I picked up on his character when we saw Thor (I’m assuming you saw Thor before Avengers in the theaters like I did). We knew Barton was Hawkeye’s last name, the casual moviegoer (like my date) didn’t.
I was going to say that
"I'm starting to root for this guy..."
I’d say nerfing Black Widow in her own movie was the start.
I don't mind a black widow movie but it should have been earlier in Phase 1 or 2. And a Hawkeye movie as well. But these should have been more grounded and less fantastical. Black Widow would have been a great movie if it was grounded on Natasha's upbringing in Russian espionage. Sure maybe they would have had to recast a younger Natasha. Same with Hawkeye.
Then maybe we could later get a movie of Hawkeye turning Black Widow to the good side in Budapest
@Follow God:God loves you repent it will be worth it God bless you all💕💜♥️❤❤
Screwing Johansson with the streaming release wasn't the start of the problem, but it was a strong symptom of the problem that already existed: Disney's money over every other consideration, including whether or not the films would attract an audience and earn Disney that all-important money.
The last Marvel movie I watched was No Way Home. The last Lucasfilm movie I watched was Rogue One. It should be mindblowing that hardcore fans have elected not to go see their favourite film series in the cinema. When it has happened to more than one film in the series, it should be job-threatening to the top of the tree. But, apparently the rathaus is too big to care.
The Black Widow film should have been before Endgame and not after it, and that was really the start of the bad decisions. Her story fell so flat when we knew she was dead already in the main timeline... on top of being not good. Captain Marvel could have and should have been pushed until the next phase with maybe a cameo in Endgame.
@@paulatreides77 Maybe we disagree, but the byplay between the fake parents Rachel Weixz and David Harbour was pretty good.
Yes to everything you said. And two more things: 1) Marvel doesn't know what it believes in. They have no consistent morality, no philosophy. This became shockingly obvious at the end of WandaVision. If you don't know who you are, and what you believe, if you cannot see what is good and what is evil, you cannot create a coherent fictional universe. And 2): metaverses. Metaverses make everything contingent, they drain all jeopardy. This is a huge unforced error. You can care about Loki; you cannot care about a thousand different Lokis.
I agree. Multiverse of Madness should've been a TEAMUP between Doctor Strange and Wanda (considering how much they team up in the comics) and him possibly trying to get her away from the Darkhold. The movie has no connection to the show other than Wanda found the DH; that's it.
I'm also pretty sure that Vision will not feature in Armor Wars, despite being a Stark technology, which would at least make sense before doing VisionQuest (which will probably also ignore anything that happened in WV).
The multiverse should've just been confined to Kang; this starting phase should've been getting the West Coast Avengers together, with Kate Bishop taking over for Hawkeye (which would then set her up for Young Avengers). This puts Sam, Rhodey, Wanda, and Vision back together and trying to step into the shoes of the original Avengers.
Multiverses work best when used as a playground for static characters. It can be a great way to change external factors on our current characters. How Dr. Strange used it worked even though the story itself did not. It's when they choose to use the multiverse as a way to undo everything that it completely undermines a story and a narrative. It's not that multiverses are bad. It's that Marvel misused them.
Loki is the only thing that actually directly continues the original story of the MCU, and oddly enough the ending of loki actually sets the stage for them to sort of "start over" with a new story arch. It's the perfectly opportunity for the MCU to stop, reset, and try to fix all the damage they've done, yet sadly I don't think disney will take advantage of it and instead just keep beating the dead horse until its a pile of dust.
I hope, but I doubt it.
there is a hope and there are changes they have done externally and internally, such as dividing marvel content as animation, television etc kind of like Group A, B, C. previous marvel shows had the problem of the budget of being an extended movie cut up into a bunch of episode so doing this allows better scheduling and structure that's more appropriate to the content they are producing. The Agatha show that was teased while I don't think it will be a masterpiece and could either suck or at least be decent could either A be the last show that was filmed prior to this change in the internal structure or B is the first 'marvel television' project. another thing is all other projects besides deadpool 3 have been pushed back we know TVA are somewhat relevant to the movie so the whole "start over" can be followed up. But all in all it all goes back to 'time will tell'.
@@nightwish1453 dead pool and the TVA is almost certainly just gonna be a big meta joke making fun of the entire multiverse concept, i wouldnt even really say thats particularly relevant to loki
Hardly, season two amounted to nothing aside from long winded exposition dumps.
@@d.6786 didn't say it was amazing, but it does tie together how the multiverse functions and create a platform to build a narrative around it with actual logic and rules, rather then the nonsensical (whatever the plot needs it to do) crap that they've put out in everything else. After loki it sets the stage for there to be actual consequences and stakes since the multiverse isn't just an infinite plot hole excuse.
Imagine being Kevin feige and having Bob Iger demand that you start spreading yourself thin and make shows for Disney plus. And then you see Bob Iger be interviewed on TV smugly talking about how the TV shows diluted the brand.
What I was thinking re-seeing that interview
Feige was never a creative powerhouse anyway. Everything greenlit after endgame has been struggling, and that's because he got rid of the creative council they had.
Cot damn!! That's just nasty work!
but wasnt bob chapek the ceo at the time of the beginning of phase 4
@@BattleCatsEnthusiast yes, but the decision to produce all of the content came from iger before he left. It takes time to produce a show
Seeing part one before seeing part two isn’t homework. That’s just how people watch things in a sequence.
But being required to watch some show on Disney that is only slightly connected before seeing part 3 is homework.
This, exactly. If someone is interested in a particular character, they're more than likely going to start at the first part of that character's story and watch it through, and if they're not interested at all in another character, then they're not going to want to have to watch that character's story just to understand the main character's story. This is an inherent problem in any cross-media storytelling - 343i tried doing the same thing with their Halo games, with only part of the main story being in the actual games and forcing fans to watch their direct-to-streaming movies and read the books to get the full storyline, which many Halo fans complained about being "homework" back then too. Constant crossovers between shows and movies has the same problem - I had many MCU movies get spoiled for me by Agents of SHIELD when they would casually drop references to the most recent theatrical release before the movie was even out of theaters, which brings up another point: figuring out the order of the different story parts to avoid spoilers. How many episodes of Show 1 can I safely watch before I have to watch Movie 13 so the ending of that doesn't get spoiled? How many episodes of Show 2 should I watch before going back to Show 1, and when will either give spoilers for Movie 14?
@@Dargonhuman The movies should've stood on their own. I shouldn't be required to watch WandaVision to understand Doctor Strange into the Multiverse of Madness. Like I didn't have to watch Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. to understand any of the MCU movies.
I understand the need to introduce new characters, and the MCU has always done that, but a lot of it seemed to be focused on finding similarly powered replacements for the characters we lost. Iron Man becomes Ironheart. The Hulk becomes She-Hulk. Black Widow becomes Yelena Belova. Hawkeye becomes Kate Bishop. Black Panther becomes Shuri (though I understand that the tragic loss of Chadwick Boseman forced Marvel's hand there).
Some of the series were not bad, or pretty good. Daredevil got drawn into the MCU. WandaVision was an interesting concept. Hawkeye was entertaining. What If... was excellent. But there was a lot of mediocrity there as well. Loki wasn't great. The Falcon and the Winter Soldier had its moments but Zemo and Agent 13 were underdeveloped, not to mention Cap's replacement who just looked goofy in the helmet. Ms Marvel and She-Hulk I couldn't finish. I had stopped caring at that point. Never even started with Loki 2.
The movies were a letdown overall. Apart from Spider-Man: No Way Home, there wasn't anything that I'd call good. Shang-Chi was largely forgettable. Black Widow was okay. The Eternals was a convoluted mess, and Doctor Strange was ruined by the Raimi-isms and complete character reversals. Thor: Love and Thunder and Ant-Man Quantumania seemed like unstructured vanity projects for the directors instead of part of the MCU. I have not yet seen The Marvels.
There's not a single MCU project I'm looking forward to anymore.
People like movies not soap operas. TV was a bad move. Not building character development was a bad move. Just using different coloured wiz bangs for showing magic was a bad move. Losing pure escapism was a bad move. Disney influence is still a bad move.
how did it lose escapism?
@@AntiKaiMatic Because of the politics we use media like the MCU to get away from reality for a minute not to have politics preached at us.
Wandavision is the only series that actually worked well since they took advantage of the medium for storytelling, it's just a shame that they threw together such a weak ending
Disagree. People love soap operas. They just don't realize it.
Star Wars
Game of Thrones
The Walking Dead.
Breaking Bad
The Sopranos
These are all soap operas. What makes them soap operas is the focus on
family ,drama, and daily life. Star Wars might not seem like a soap opera if you only watch say a new hope but it becomes more clear with the empire strikes back and return of the jedi.
The difference with daytime soap operas is that they are daily and naturally that limits the budget and what can be done. It's difficult to get into daytime soap operas
because they are often REALLY old and each episode continues the story.
we may not think of The Walking Dead as a soap opera because we think
it's zombies so survival horror but at a certain point the zombies almost become irrelevant and the real drama is between humans and their families.
We see more or less the daily life of Rick Grimes. It's just his life has zombies.
Comics are also soap operas. Sure it might be the literal end of the world
but hey that's just everyday drama when you're a superhero.
Batman is a good example. Sure the Wayne Family is dead but in a sense
Gotham is Batman's Dysfunctional Family.
I think TV wasn't automatically a bad move. I loved WandaVision, liked Falcon and Winter Soldier, and thought Loki was OK. I couldn't even get through any of the other ones. Looking back, I wasn't interested in committing many hours to characters I didn't know. Both shows I liked had two existing known characters at their heart. Having one marginal character (like Hawkeye) wasn't enough.
If the new character you're introducing isn't strong enough to carry a movie, then what makes you think they're strong enough to carry a TV show that's three times as long?
They should have taken a break with "new content" after Endgame, except for stuff that felt more like an epilogue than a new phase. WandaVision and Falcon and Winter Soldier both felt like characters dealing with what had come before - a completion of the same arc. If they had framed Black Widow as Nat's soul (post Endgame) being asked to justify herself or recount her greatest moment then it wouldn't have felt so disconnected and aimless. If the point was she discovered the importance of family when her "fake family" turned into a real family, and that lead to everything good in her life that came after then it would have had so much more meaning.
I agree. The MCU is lacking without the Avengers. And the vague assembling of the "Young Avengers" in the background of various movies and tv shows is not compelling.
FR. I've said this before and I still think to this day that they should have waited like 3-4 heck maybe even 5 years before releasing Endgame after Infinity War. Of course that doesn't fix a number of problems people have with the MCU but it sure as hell keeps audiences invested.
The thing is, the Young Avengers were always an additional team of heroes in the comics, they never replaced the real Avengers, and at this point we don't even know if that's what they are planning to do. If it is, they would be also butchering the Young Avengers though, because we would be lacking some key characters from that team. In the comics, Wiccan and Speed naturally re-incarnated after their fake selves were killed by Mephisto. But take Kate Bishop, she is already in her 20s, so chronologically, either she will not be part of the Young Avengers, or Wiccan and Speed won't.
Also it looks like Ms. Marvel will be part of the Young Avengers (?), if that's where they are going with it. But she is part of the actual Avengers in the comics. It's too confusing, and I don't think they know what they are doing anymore, to be honest.
The concept of the young Avengers is happening way too soon, imo because we never even got west coast avengers first.
However, I do think they botched up on the TV shows especially. I think the way they did the TV shows during the first 3 phases was the right way to go. Make the TV shows Canon to the movies to where you throw in casual references here and there like they did with agents of shield and the Netflix marvel shows. But, the movies have zero obligation to ever mention characters and events from the TV shows. This way, it doesn't feel like homework for your audience to keep up with the films while giving hard-core fans the illusion of everything being connected.
@@bitxhcraftdefinitely feels like the young avengers will be a team of teens plus young adults.
@@bitxhcraft It's so weird how they're shoving in the Young Avengers at this point and having it be due to bad writing. The only one that was actually done justice in these awful shows was Kate Bishop. And Hailee Steinfeld's acting sold it for me.
That is what you call Disney’s GREED. Greed came biting back
😡💢💢You're WRONG!!! That's NOT what you call Disney’s GREED. That's what you call IGER'S GREED. Disney is NOT greedy! Iger is the REAL greedy one here, NOT Disney! Disney is a VICTIM of his greed!
Like all companies?
@smudge82_ 🙄💢💢You're WRONG!!! This ISN'T what you call Disney's "greed" at all!!! This is IGER'S GREED, plain and simple!!!
Iger is the REAL greedy one here, NOT Disney! Disney is a VICTIM of Iger's incompetence and greed! Can't you see that?
@smudge82_ Disney is a VICTIM of Iger's incompetence and greed! Iger is the REAL villain here. He's the one ruining everything!
But I'm CHANGING all of that.
@@annien.1727 Hahaha. You wish Disney is a good company. Do your homework. READ ARTICLES.
Disney is just as evil as other corporate greedy companies. Hahaha. You can get angry all you want but that is not changing the fact that Disney is GREEDY
Adding time travel in Endgame and introducing the multiverse ended consequences, makes it hard to care and get attached to the new characters.
Yeah that time travel in End Game was such a bummer to me, seen time travel and multiverses way before in other super hero series and it's always a mess.
Especially if you’re s t u p I d 😂
And they completely undid all of the character development Steve went through just to have him screw up the timeline by staying in the past. Looks like he let Sharon on, and she has to rebound, I guess. He went through the entire saga moving on, even to the point of becoming less trusting, more secretive, and more of a potty mouth. Nope, undone just so he can break a law of time travel and live in the past. Endgame felt like it was written the same as Age of Ultron (with its forced shipping of Nat and Banner). A disappointing follow up to Infinity War and conclusion to the Infinity Saga.
@@yoavbenclaudia3073 You don't understand it then, it didn't undo anything. It showed what we already knew Steve can not let go, example, Civil War and Winter soldier where Cap risked EVERYTHING in the hope of saving his friend. The ending allowed a nice end of story for Steve without a nerf and there is a theory that the man Peggy married is actually a Steve from another universe, we don't ever see him. He got to live the life that Tony was going to have.
100% accurate comment.
The multiverse kills storylines. Nothing means anything anymore. A character dies and just exists in another universe. The MCU never had much gravitas. But what little it had, the Multiverse killed it.
Too many clips. I can't concentrate on what you're saying because it's being broken up by a random Marvel clip every 5 seconds.
i thought it would just be a quirky bit for the intro but it never stopped lmao
Just stop being a smooth brain
@@elgato9o Okay Tiktok brain
@@elgato9oit is pretty poor editing just talk stop having scenes we’ve seen before
Yeah and some aren't even that relevant, it's just like trying to find a clip that's relevant and going "yeah, that will do".
I think another problem was Covid and the Death of Chadwick, its pretty clear that there were plans for BP to be the main hero, along with DS and SM, for the saga, however, once he died, the plans for future projects were scrapped and they had to scramble to come up with something also. Furthermore, with Covid, we know that it caused the order of the films to be changed and made characters appear less, case in point, originally DS was supposed to appear in WandaVision.
Also, a Vision show is not scrapping the barrel, he was been a prominant Avengers character for years, not only in the MCU, but in the comics. He deserves his own show.
Ya it’s a shame Chadwick could’ve been a great leader going forward
why didnt they just re-cast chadwick?
i mean, he littlerly said if he dies he wants another person to play black panther so the character doesnt die
@vijaytamishra453 it could have been a rash decision, as they were all grieving a friend and loved one, and instead of making it feel as though they are replacing him, they do a beautiful send off. Also, a lot of the fans would have been comparing, sure that's likely to happen with any recasting, but they were recasting an actor who died, therefore, it may have felt that it was unjustifiable, and may have possibly turned toxic.
It was using Wanda as the msheu made her that was scraping the barrel, her comic version was done much better.
It feels weird to do a Vision show since he died twice. Wanda also died and his relationship with her was important. Tony Stark created him, yet he also died. There isn't any tie in to any characters, so the project wouldn't go anywhere.
I personally think that once Endgame was over, the general audience, aka non comic or Marvel fans, felt that was the end. The story they'd invested money and time in was over. Even as a comics fan I've only watched No Way Home since. Although I will say I was unhappy with the adaption of Civil War
Seriously? The moment I heard they were making it, I was afraid it would suck as bad as the comic. But no, CW the movie was much better. For one thing, we didn't end hating Tony Stark's guts.
@@tedmiller1376 the movie couldn't use the main reason for Cap's resistance from the comic, so it ended up being "your friend killed my daddy" "but he's still my friend"
Also the inclusion of Spider-Man was a terrible PR attempt to say it going to be like the comic to fans
@@user-xo2xd1gu5e The setup from the comics was no better. I had many problems with it. IRL legislation just never moves that fast, so it seemed like all it took was the merest disagreement for all the heroes to be at each other's throats. In this case, just the fear of what might happen did it. Marvel could have handled it in stages, or even flashed forward a year or two. As it was, the whole thing was a mess that made no sense. Probably because Marvel just wanted that year's crossover begun and finished on the same time scale as any other crossover.
The Segovia accords worked much better for me. It started with a disaster, and gave us legislation happening over a period of time as it should. And I also liked how the Panther was given a stake in the matter as well. An international incident was a great way to involve a hero from halfway around the planet.
Anyway, "your friend killed my daddy" works. That's why it's a trope that gets used. Tropes aren't automatically a bad thing. It's how they get handled that determines whether they work or not. And it was great for highlighting Bucky's unusual dual role as both victim and perpetrator.
@@tedmiller1376The awful thing about the _Civil War_ comic is that Mark Millar thought the audience should agree with Stark and Richards. Apparently banishing people to a prison in the Negative Zone without trial is acceptable to him.
This is the problem with introducing MULTI VERSE. Which plagued CW Flash as well. Once there are 15 different versions of you...audiences stops caring about the character.
Bingo!
Ngl, the constant inserts of Marvel characters commenting on what you're saying is more distracting than engaging. That's something that works in moderation.
Ya foreal
Yeah, it was cute at first, but it quickly wore out its welcome. Hes guilty of the same thing hes talking about.
It's the other way around
What do you mean?
Agreed.
5:00 "Not that bad" is not exactly a ringing endorsement. Like it doesn't make me want to go. "Oh, it's not that bad? I should go check it out then."
The only things from phases 4 and 5 that are objectively good are spider-man no way home (mainly because it was running on the nostalgia of the previous spider-man movie canons of the past) and Guardians of the Galaxy 3 was an alright way of wrapping up the story of a team of galactic misfits with Rocket and Groot being the only ones that stay to carry the new team. Other than that everything else sucks.
There has been no real plans with anything after endgame,
disney and marvel's agenda to make the MCU go hard on catering to a female audience while pushing out the established male audience that this franchise is targeted at has been stupid as hell because women were already watching the MCU well before they decided to shove captain marvel down everyone's throats convincing us she and her movie was import to understand endgame when it was just a nothing burger,
and just not taking the time to slow down with the content and make the quality actually good. Nobody likes having expectations subverted all the damn time.
I really hope Deadpool & Wolverine is worth the hype it's getting because it looks promising.
TFatWS was decent until the last few episodes. They completely lost me at " you've gotbto do better".
@@bramderacourt9499 And that part is exactly why the show loses points.
Not THAT bad. Still not good.
And I'm not going out to see "not that bad."
@@AutZentus D&W will probably be a circus of fan-service, like No Way Home. And like that movie, technically it won't be quality, but it will be entertaining. Maybe not "not that bad" but probably "not that good."
If the shows were good there wouldn’t be complaints. It’s literally a quality and consistency issue. They’re producing bad stuff.
When the comics are great, fans don’t complain about quantity as much as trying to figure out how to get everything. When the stuff is bad, no one buys the comics. Same with the films and shows.
Bro why is there a fucking movie scene after every fucking line
It's hard to listen to what you say when every 5 seconds there is a footage from a marvel film
I remember when the announcement about Wanda Vision, Loki & other Disney+ shows came out that fan hype was at an ALL TIME HIGH. I was SO PUMPED. Boy, was I wrong. A few years later and I haven’t even watched like 3-4 of the latest Marvel Disney+ shows which I NEVER thought I’d say as a Marvel fanatic. I would’ve called you a liar if you told me back then that in 2022 and on, I’d be skipping most Marvel content. I’m a UA-camr too & my channel actually popped off from me posting MCU-related content. Now my channel has transformed into something else because I just don’t care anymore.
I dont like what they did to Wanda in the msheu so making a tv show based on her wasnt a good idea to begin with imo.
@@egor102 Shut up. If you still use the term “msheu” your opinion on Marvel content doesn’t matter.
@@kingvampstan That you are triggered over my use of msheu means your opinion means nothing to me.
@@kingvampstan The Echo actress accidently used the term MSheU. That's how well-known it is, you're far too late by several years to try and dismiss it.
@@kingvampstanBut it is the m-she-u now. That couldn’t be more obvious. And I say that as a black woman.
Meh, the MCU is failing because they got too far away from the source material.
TOO far away😅
Exactly they thought they were too good for the comics
They always gotten far away from the source material never the action of origin like in the comics.
Following the source material is not always necessarily the right move. The Boys tv show is going too far away from the comics, but it works because the comics are terrible
The source material is the coomics they are currently leaning towards the comics exactly what they should be doing they are not getting away from the source material
i seriously did not realize were 22 projects in since Endgame! that really explains a lot.
I actually don't think a lot of the projects in phase 4 & 5 feeling like disconnected, aimless, one off stories is entirely a problem cause from a certain perspective you could just view a lot of them as epilogue stories to Avengers: Endgame. I personally think the biggest issue was they were introducing too many brand new characters too fast, and some of them just aren't nearly as interesting, appealing or even well written.
Scarlet Witch is the only hero I liked in Multiverse of Madness. Actually she's the only hero I still like in the current MCU tbh.
Hopefully they bring her back for more
No Multiverse of Madness completely ruined her character. Michael Waldron is a terrible writer.
@@vice2versa No it didn't, she's literally one of the most beloved heroes in the current MCU
@@HarveyDent13 she was, shes not anymore. MCU is nolonger known for quality content. I used to be a major fan but marvel took its audience for granted.
She is not a hero anymore. They made her the ruthless villain of all time. Pretended hero but secretly a villain.
They created such a perfect villain storyline in Thanos, now it’s almost impossible to find a storyline better to bring people back
Since Kang crashed and burned, the only way now is to make Doctor Doom into the complex anti-villain that we deserve, since the MCU is going towards Secret Wars.
I lost it when they showed infinity stones as paper weights 😢 in Loki. All that infinity saga and end game meant nothing 🤷.
There's all that..... and they also started saying their movies weren't meant for us.
So we didn't watch them.
Hawkeye has always been my favorite. Too many people forget his first appearance was in the first *THOR* movie.
14:52 From an audience perspective the longest was 3 years.
Avengers 2012
Age of Ultron 2015
Civil War 2016
Infinity War 2018
Endgame 2019
Hawkeye first appeared in Thor. Agatha is getting her own series because she was such a fan favorite in wandavision
true. and i dont see a problem in agatha. kathryn haan plays her realy well and i am sure i am not the only one who want to see more of agatha and wanda. she is such a complex character and i like how a hero turned in to a villain becouse of greef. we all can relate to wanda but also know its wrong what she has done. also the story between wanda and agatha is not finished yet, there is still potential.
Agatha All Along is about witches; not the Agatha Harkness from FF 94 and Marvel. Not much interest here.
Who cares? She is not a relevant character, she never was, and not EVERY single female villain needs redemptions.
The actress and the MCU version were great, but more Agatha leads nowhere considering she isn't even well known.
@@MontenegroPlusthis isnt about just agatha after the release of wandavision people begged for marvel to explore more of their witchcraft side which is what they are doing and also explaining how the twins are real and bringinf wanda back
@@AntiKaiMatic Not really: Agatha is the last character in their list to know magic, usually that is centered around Dr Strange and not even around Wanda, but if the did were to listen to what people "beg" for, they wouldn't be in the frail state they ave been for quite a while now.
There is nothing to adapt about Agatha.
And the story of the twins has nothing to do with her.
So I guess, the only viable option to believe in, is that they are rebuilding staff on the go in order to make it all about her, just like with Ms Marvel for example, trying to give the Young Avengers to her.
An old quote from an almost-forgotten animated film comes to mind: "when everyone's super, no one will be." When there are so many 'big releases,' much less in such a short amount of time, at a certain threshold, it can all melt into a sea of background noise.
I don't think anyone has forgotten The Incredibles.
Literally everyone knows about the incredibles
Imo, it's because they're doing the exact opposite of what fans want, we don't need 100 movies and shows that are mid, we'd be happy with 10 movies that are peak and set a standard
And they gave their biggest storylines to writers and directors with no credits to their name and activists who actively hated what came before or had no knowledge of the source material at all.
These are cheap acquisitions(talent/creative), all these woke shit I believe is a cover for their money laundering schemes. These disney shows/films doesn't look as expensive as their declared budget.
It's like those poor countries commiting big budget to projects that lead to nowhere.
My take on why they have fallen is that they have focused too much on simply cashing the IP in. I get it’s a business and they have a streaming service, but they have been putting out so much content that seems like it’s sole purpose for existence is not to even tell a compelling story, but rather just exist for a quick buck. I get many people worked hard on these projects - but the studio has been dictating so much of this that I think it is ultimately their fault. Instead of having a massive lineup planned out for the next five years, focus more on one project at a time. Try to make that the best thing you can. Audiences will still see good Marvel movies - Guardians 3 and NWH underscore this. They need to do this consistently. They need to do stuff that is more different and fresh rather than follow the same old template. This is not only for Marvel, but the entire film industry
Exactly this is the number one reason
Shang-Chi is heavily slept on and underrated amd would consider that film to be the only "new" entry character in the mcu to date, NWH and GOTGVOL3, X-men 97, deadpool and wolverine, all are continuations that has been set up previously, Shang-Chi, on the other hand, was the only new character that had what was left of creativity from marvel imo, after that, any newcomer hasn't been really good imo
I have to say that as a casual fan, the reason we stopped watching is a combination of high volume, superhero fatigue, and the dip in quality. All of it. Infinity War just felt like a good ending point.
I think you mean Endgame, but yeah ;)
Avengers are overused
We need more X-MEN and Fantastic Four
soon since disney bought fox. likely with the next deadpool movie.
We haven't gotten them is because Marvel Studios couldn't use them in the MCU before now.
I know Deadpool x Wolverine is going to be great, but I’m investing my hope in the next Captain America movie to bring back captivating, small-scope stories in the MCU (since guardians vol 3 had that going for them, but now that franchise is all wrapped up).
For me, where I started tuning out was at Captain Marvel. New Marvel movies used to retroactively make previous movies better. Captain Marvel was the first movie to retroactively make an older film (Winter Soldier, particularly Nick Fury's eye patch scene) worse.
Marvel started yearing itself apart, like Ouroborous
No, man. Captain Marvel made nearly all previous MCU movies worse. I think only Black Panther was unaffected.
Captain Lesbian
@@anonymoustroll2432 lesbian?
Also, it should be noted that as the MCU gets bigger, it's going to be harder and harder to keep up.
While up till Endgame, it did feel like homework, it didn't feel like too much homework.
You could just watch the 3 phases separately and each one would be done in less than a week without taking too much time...
But, just like the comics, once you have too much stuff, it's hard to keep track of it all.....
Bro please stop adding marvel clips after every goddamn sentence
I was going to say the same thing, good lord!
i dont like seeing his face talking.
He's out of line but he's right
I literally just commented this myself! Agree.
@@citysmall3427😂😂😂
It was also the little sprinkles of each character that they either debut or teased that made this so much interesting.
Debuting Nick Fury and teasing The Avengers in Iron Man 1.
Debuting Black Widow and teasing Thor in Iron Man 2.
Debuting Hawkeye and teasing the plot to The Avengers in Thor.
Just carefully pacing each idea until it became the saga that it is today.
Yo man when you’re famous and making revolutionary video essays can you remember me as you’re 355th sub?
Lol I’m pinning this comment so I see it every time I come back to this video
🤜🤛
@@ElvisMenezes1 ty bro u just made my day 👍
@@owentrooper3499 he ain't pinned you yet
@@user-bc2in7oe3l got unpinned sadly lol
@@user-bc2in7oe3lgot unpinned sadly
Bro Falcon and Winter Soldier was straight trash...what we wanted was an action comedy but what we got was an action political drama based on modern day politics. They couldn't even come up with something original!
Action political drama is being to generous. The main character spent the whole show running away from his responsibilities and trying to be friends with a literal domestic terrorist. The second main character spent the whole show being sad. The main villain is a moron that literally chooses terrorism over getting a job and the secondary "villain" spends the whole show literally wanting and trying to stop THE TERRORISTS!!! There literally were no politics or drama in the show 🤦🏾♂️
That was just awful.
nobody wants more comedy. I like fatws just the way it is captain america has always been a political character so it fits him the most
@@bryanmills1638 there was that whole racism arc...the cop that was like "is he bothering you sir" to Bucky...like what year are we in the 1940's? There was that whole conversation between Sam and his sister about Tony Stark and getting no money...then she said maybe Thanos was right and Sam all of a sudden had nothing to say. Then at the very end it had Sam preaching to the politicians to "do better" when he himself has nothing to contribute 🤷♂️
@@AntiKaiMatic possibly but it was just horribly written...I was expecting something like Lethal Weapon...very serious things happening with some humorous things in between...instead it was pretty boring and the Agent guy turned out to be the most interesting guy...Bucky was even defeated by a Wakandan lady with no powers...like wtf? Makes no sense.
WandaVision was a show with questionable ethics, it felt like all the evil characters were treated nicely
I think Shang-Chi is super under appreciated and underrated and needs to be given more credit and recognition imo, but I also blame marvel for not utilizing that IP outside of the 1st film, hardly any of those characters in that film ever showed up or made an cameo appearance and we are already halfway thru this "multiversal saga" (phases 4-6) and marvel has done nothing, but let it sit and Shang-Chi isn't even a bad character or IP and did really well, but because of "reasons" Shang-Chi doesn't get enough praise as it deserves and is the very last IP imo that marvel dished out amd is good.
Shang and the movie was solid, but they did nothing with him. Literally nothing. Disappeared like white Vision.
I keep waiting for more Shang-Chi, and instead, we get nonsense like MoM. I honestly had hoped that they'd let the old guys retire, and start a new team with Shang-Chi... kind of the new Tony Stark. Then introduce another in a solo movie, and another, and another, and then do a team-up. But instead...? What is this?
To me one of the biggest missteps of Marvel was just ending The Scarlet Witch’s storyline with a movie that did a whole disservice to the whole character. Like they could have made a trilogy about her descent into evil and make her one of the best villains/anti heroes of all time but no, just straight up madness.
Thing is most of the series were truly unnecessary. Like FATWS? could’ve been cut into a movie, same with Hawkeye and Loki.
The only show that actually made sense as a tv show was truly Wandavision but they barely acknowledged it in the various plots
No, Loki worked well as a TV show, as a Movie it would have been confusing and missing a lot of pieces. Also it was a really good show, and the proof is it was beloved by fans.
@@MrReset94 Loki was awful, just because a lot of fans loved it doesn't mean it was good, that is an appeal to popularity, and you can do the same for the Transformers movies.
Her turning into a tragic villain was done very well in WandaVision, then they messed it up in MoM.
@@BirdsElopeWithTheSun09 true but they should’ve spent more time before having her go totally insane
I like Wanda as a villain, but they should've had moments of her in conflict with herself.
Green Goblin had it. Doc Ock had it. Wanda was a baddie straight up. The most interesting part of her turn was unlike previous foes, she was one of the heroes. They should've done more with that.
Loki is better off as TV show. Its problem was that it kinda sucked.
I was recommended this video randomly as I haven't watched anything on the MCU in a long time...but boy have you taken the word right out of my mouth. I'm glad someone else sees it as a collective of things that have gone wrong instead of just a single thing.
DD and the Defenders related projects added to the mess didn’t help either. Shang-Chi should have been kept as a grounded hero in this uni IMO.
We don't see KF anymore. Its like he was erased by the TVA.
A great example of the old saying- quit while you’re ahead.
I think we think that because we see it from the consumer or fan perspective.
They just care about money and they are still making millions, I believe they already calculated they could make a few really good movies/tv shows but they just make a bit (or a lot) more by pushing 20 million shows with poor quality (which actually falls into the category of bad publicity is still publicity) since everyone is talking about it because how bad they are and people keep seeing it.
It's just capitalism.
Wandavision was awesome! One of my favorite things they've done. Definitely one of the best projects post endgame. The big problem I see with the volume of production is not just the reduced quality but most specially that there was a major lack of communication between the various creators, writers and show runners. With chapeck pushing so much content the biggest factor that had maintained the quality (feige) was stretched too thin to oversee it all. Oh and the dark knight is not a very good movie. Heath Ledger was great, the rest of the movie is a total mess.
I think Moon Knight might be the best, Loki was quite good, I think Wanda Vision suffered from Agatha and trying to insert it in to the rest of the MCU and the Dr. Strange 2 seeming like a different character.
It would be much better without that, while Moon Knight seems self contained atm. and is rock solid.
You really hit the nail on the head with this one. This has been my exact frustration. No cohesion, too many new characters without keeping track of the ones we already know (including the new ones), too many loose threads in dangling strings, none of that famous MCU continuity. Very well articulated
Cap broke Wanda out of the raft, Wanda killed Peggy Carter, Cap killed Peggy Carter...
the Earth 838 version....
Phase 3 was the end of an awesome streak of movies, and they followed it up with a lot of trash writing. Its mostly the bad writing
I never understood how at that level you can get bad writing. They obviously do it but I don't get it, maybe there are many writers that throw ideas and a head writers that glues everything without having time to give it a second thought?
And they don't even have to think the whole thing, they usually have a base on a comic or a tv series or something so it's should be easier and faster to make a good script.
We can all blame the fcking mouse for this, it ruined all franchises it touches
The Avatar Re-release still pisses me off. That movie is terrible and not deserving of being the most profitable movie ever
How did you get all the dialogue edits so perfectly??😮
Thanks man, not sure how to explain it in a comment but basically just inserted a piece of dialogue that I thought would make sense with whatever point or line I just said. You should check out the channel Archer Green, he does it really well
@@ElvisMenezes1You did a brilliant job!
Since endgame, only good movies are Spider-Man no way home and guardians of the galaxy 3
No way home sucks just like the other Tom Holland Spiderman movies and its all Kevin Feige fault. Its all about Zendaya in all three movies that made Spiderman wimper like Harrison Ford.
For me, it's when MCU gets further and further away from reality. The Hulk, Thor, Ant Man are less grounded than Iron Man, Spider-man, the Cap but are at least based on Earth or the Nine Realms. Black Panther is like alternate history and Guardians of the Galaxy and Captain Marvel are intergalactic whose threat are no longer "threatening" to me.
I think you hit the nail on the head, bro. You're giving the abominations that are Phase 4 and 5 too much credit, but you're spot on about the issues.
Loved Wanda Vision. Everything after it has been awful
Wandavision is awesome
Hawkeye was alright
4:30 The Infinity Saga is Iron Man to Spiderman Far From Home
Far From Home doesn't really make sense as the final movie of phase three. Endgame's ending was just so conclusive as the end of an era, and FFH was dealing with the fallout after the Infinity Saga was over.
@@liamdell6319Homecoming, Far From Home and No Way Home all sucks and its all Zendayas fault.
@@anonymoustroll2432 I only found her irritating enough to detract from my experience in Homecoming, but make no mistake she was still irritating.
@@anonymoustroll2432 You have to lack the most basic of comprehension abilities to blame the writing and directing of a character on the actress portraying her.
Jsus do we need to edit in a movie scene quote after every sentence
2 things: Hawkeye was in Thor and I for one am super excited for Agatha All Along and VisionQuest
Didn't hawkeye first appeared in Thor one(like how black widow did in iron man 2)?
Technically, it was more of a cameo than an appearance. We don't see Clint Barton's face, but we do hear him having a humorous conversation with Phil Coulson off-camera while the character is supposed to be posted up like a sniper waiting for the order to take Thor out. It's more of a cameo by the actor (Jeremy Renner) saying his lines over the scene's radio, and he's only in that one sequence. I'm not sure if Renner is even listed in the credits. It may have been a stunt double who played Barton going into the weapons room, eschewing the sniper rifle for the collapsible bow, then taking his position. (The true fans knew at that point: Barton is his name + sarcastic commentary + bow & arrow = Hawkeye. He's not called Hawkeye until we see him in the Avengers movie.) Natasha Romanov, OTOH, was a full supporting character in Iron Man 2, and the audiences certainly got an eyeful of Scarlett Johanson in the role through multiple scenes. I wouldn't blame Elvis for forgetting that Barton/Hawkeye actually was "revealed" to the audience in Thor, IF he was one of those casual fans he talks about.
It started with Captain Marvel. It was not a issue of over saturation. It was specifically because the content quality dropped. Spreading things too thin helped with that quality drop, but a huge part of it was the very forced ideology driving them to change to a disproportionate and inorganic focus on Identity at the cost of quality. Hire a proven quality director that happens to be white? Or one has basically no film history but happens to be female or non-white? They choose the second. Cast comic book accurate actors? Or race and gender swap? They choose the second. Appeal to the existing audience, or alienate them as you chase a audience that does not put their money where their mouth is? Again... the second option.
Hard selling an unlikable character.
@@GenJuhru Yet they turned Iron Man, a character who only existed in the comics to be an unlikable bastard, into one of the most loved characters in the MCU. Same with Loki, same with Hank Pym... It just takes good writing and an understanding of character to turn an unlikable character into a marketable one, which the current crop of writers are apparently incapable of as they've turned beloved characters from the comics like She-Hulk and turned them into thoroughly despised characters.
It started with Ant-Man and the Wasp, that's the first one that didn't feel like they had a story that they wanted to tell, it was just made to set up the time travel in Endgame.
Captain Marvel was a mid-tier MCU flick, not great and not awful- it had no glaring flaws. However it was one of the most successful solo films.
@@neospock5034 Captain Marvel is a bottom-tier MCU flick, most MCU films at least have a main character that has a character. But it was definitely successful, even if it was mostly because of Endgame.
Wanda Vision going with the safest possible ending was the beginning of the end for me. They had the world by the balls, but then squandered it.
The real problem with the MCU is the large number of series and the lack of quality in most of them. This spoils the whole impression and even the movies start to seem bad compared to what it used to be
Feige promised that the MCU after Endgame would be completely different, he just failed to mention that the difference would be that the MCU up to Endgame would be mostly awesome, and the era after Endgame would mostly suck. I’m hoping they will rush through the last of the movies in the Multiverse saga so we can maybe get back to making good Marvel films again.
I did not like Endgame.
13:00 You forgot Hawkeye's appearance in Thor 1
It wasn’t major, that’s why he didn’t include it
@@galaxymoonlqght3732 I see
@@galaxymoonlqght3732 but still, it was an appearance.
@@naturalhybrid he said in the video that he would exclude minor appearances in the films
Marvel really thought their fans are jobless and have bunch of free time with disposable money to spend.
1:02 i dont remember this scene being conplete in the Captain America 2, is this a deleted scene?
The pandemic Covid also contributed to the correction in cinema occupancy and this happened to all film producers, such as the DC universe too
I don’t mind seeing more Wanda the Scarlett witch the more the better she’s a baddie
I would say when they stopped caring about characters and stories, and started caring about representation and identity politics, the good faith they built with their core audience vanished.
You made some phenomenal points in this vid and absolutely nailed it with all the MCU quotes spliced in. I am almost certain that you are a pretty big fan after seeing all of those!
But even more than that, congratulations! I wanted to watch your backlog since this was such a well constructed video easy and I was surprised to see most of your vids only had a few hundred views! I really hope your channel pops off after this, you do deserve it! Hopefully this is the start of something grand!
Dial down the movie dialogues. It is unnecessary and takes the weight off of your statements/opinions.
@@corpse6754 thanks for the feedback
@@ElvisMenezes1 yeah when its done too often, it can feel really unnecessary and kinda annoying.
Underrated video for sure, I’ll be annoyed if I don’t see anymore uploads.
Appreciate you saying that, and don’t worry… more uploads are coming
Disney dropped disney plus and then quickly realized they didn't have enough content for a full streaming service. So they decided to just pump out as much content from their IPs as possible.
We grew up with the Infinity Saga characters. We were so invested in their development. We even know the dialogues of all those movies still now. But, nowadays, I even forget the plotline of the recently watched MCU movies and shows
Hot Take: Marvel doesn't need saving, it needs redirection. Everybody chill the f out
That is a hot take because it very much needs saving.
I think if they had just kept is at Loki and Wandavision on the TV side it would have been fine. Those showed were solid and went somewhere. And Falcon and the Winter Soldier made sense (though wasn’t as good). They all made sense as natural follow ups for Endgame to bridge to a next set of films. But with the random stuff like Moon Knight, Ms Marvel, Secret Invasion, Black Widow…those were just random and didn’t really bring anything forward. The energy going into those extraneous shows could have greatly improved core items to set up a new Avengers like Falcon and the Winter soldier and Multiverse of Madness.
Great Editing in this video for a such a small channel. Great Job! and Great Points made.
Black Widow... "enough!"
Shang Chi... "who are you?"
Eternals... "Ikea."
🤣🤣🤣 this got me, good bit
😂
Ayy good content bro, you should have more views
Ayy really appreciate that, hopefully you’re right
I believe it actually started in Endgame, the "woman power scene" really throw me off the movie.
We got those 3 multi-verse plots PLUS the Young Avengers plot that keeps randomly popping up but didn't tie together until The Marvels. Which no one saw because * see reasons listed in video. So that's 4 disjointed plots and one idea of how to bring them together 22 projects in. And not even a concrete idea because, again, no one watched The Marvels and the majority opinion is that the general public does not like the potential character line up (which has nothing to do with the fact that it's almost all girls, some of whom are WOC and/or canonically queer in the comics and the 2 boys are also canonically queer in the comics)
I remember when like Age of Ultron came out my sister said that she has interest in the Marvel movies, but she just can't get into them because she said there was like 8 of them at the time. If only we knew how bad things would get.
Disney Marvel is failing because they're using long term idealistic ideas with short-term characters
Not to mention all the gender politics they are putting into the movies....
😡💢💢Well, that's going to change! Once Iger gets kicked out of Disney and replaced by Elon Musk, positive changes will happen at Disney. Marvel will be given away to another movie studio with the know-how. As for me, I'm going to let my creative movie ideas to fill in the gaps and replace Marvel. Disney will NEVER fail again. Elon Musk and I are going to make sure of that. That's no joke.
@@egor102 😡DON'T even go there! That's all going to change. My friends, Elon Musk and I are going to abolish the woke agenda permanently and change Disney for the better. I'm not kidding here. The gender politics will come to an end and be replaced by life lessons, friendship, love, teamwork and the like.
@@annien.1727 You must have been smoking something really good.
I don't see Elon making a mistake like buying enough of Disney to get on the board.
Disney has tanked their value, by tanking their IP's... Marvel included... although not nearly so badly as Star Wars... and yes, they are doing the same thing with their live-action remakes.
@@nyetzdyec3391 😡Watch it! That's all going to change! Disney has NOT tanked their value for Disney will change for the better!
My friends, Elon Musk and I are going to abolish the woke agenda and restore Disney back to the way it was before!
Iger will be kicked out of Disney and Elon will take his place! As for Star Wars, it will be given away to another studio with the better know-how.
Iger will NOT be tanking anything in Disney again! That's my vow!
Dr. Strange and the MoM was very dissatisfying and disappointing. That was the film that confirmed I was done with the Marvel universe.
I dunno man... the hardcore fans are the ones who really seemed to drop off.
It's not about running out of A-tier characters. I'm not saying that the original Avengers were unpopular comic characters, but they're no Spiderman, Batman or Superman. Good story telling, consistent character arc, likable character traits and appropriate castings are what really elevated MCU and it's heroes. No one likes to see a character whose only weakness is not her own problem, or a TV show preaching about how releasing people after kidnapping, brainwashing and robbing them months of their lifetime is a great sacrifice.
good vid bro
Appreciate it
You forgot that Hawkeye also appeared in the first Thor movie. 13:00
Ya a bit earlier in the video I mentioned that I wasn’t counting minor cameos
What hurt it for me is they killed Ironman. ☹
keep in mind, all four movies in 2021 came out AFTER JUNE