The guide results for 3nm F/6.8 at 18:23 looks like the camera could’ve been rotated after guider calibration. If that happens, you see corrections in one axis appear in the other until you have a runaway effect.
Oh, shoot. I think you are right! I wonder if my paranoia about not wanting adapter getting stuck meant that the camera rotated on filter change and then I forgot to re-calibrate. It was the last filter of the night so I wouldn’t be surprised that I made that mistake. Good spotting!
Awesome video. Every through and detailed. I wish I had thought to compare the guiding data like you did. Look like the vignette on that 55 must be really sharp. And thank you for the mention too.
Duo also makes sense for a portable small travel set. Less to take and carry along, less weight, less cables that could snack or be forgotten on that trip ;-). With smaller harmonic drive mounts coming up and Rπ-based plate solving and full system control, soon all you need is a small backpack for a full imaging set-up. We are all getting so spoiled.
Nice review Nico -very informative. That image with the Ha at f/4 loks good. I used to shoot Ha the astronomik clip-in and with my Canon T3i/600d mod years ago. Nobody seems to use Ha alone with OSC cameras anymore. I also noticed that you had an Askar OAG, I did not know they made one. - Cheers Kurt
SBIG did this with their CCD cameras back in early 2000's (ST-10, ST-2000, STL-11000), which worked fine with LRGB filters. Narrowband filters were challenging for the guide sensor.
Thanks for testing on such a diversity of scopes and lenses! Looking forward to the review of the new Askar 103 APO. I just got my FF130, which is an amazing scope. Let’s see how the 103mm APO will live up to the PHQs.
not surprised at the f/6.8 3nm results but pleasantly surprised at the 7nm. thanks for this review. i now know to avoid this camaera fro my rig. but, it looks like this is a fair option for those with fast set ups.
I'm borrowing the ZWO asi294mc pro. The other day, we took our 14 inch telescope off the stand, and it fell and crushed the camera. We caught it in time so that the telescope was ok. The camera works, although I can't use the cooler because when the cooler is running, it crashes the camera
Since you tried canon 18-55mm, it would be interesting to see how a canon 50mm f1.8 do as it is a full frame lens. Hope you make that happen in a future video.
Great review - you’re the only one who tells the truth about this camera not working with 3nm narrowband. The other reviews make it sound like it work. My experience is the same as yours. I just got one and it does NOT work at F8 at 2000mm narrowband (3nm). The FL is also important because it zooms in so less chance of bright stars
Yes, I didn't have anything to test at that focal length, but that makes total sense to me. It might have actually worked at 700mm, f/6.8 I was using (see pinned comment - I likely messed up by forgetting to re-calibrate the guider), but at 2000mm focal length, f/8, 3nm, I wouldn't expect it to work. Hopefully I made that clear in the video. Sounds like I did. Thanks for letting us know!
Very nice review Nico! Very happy to hear this (seen Ben's review too)! I have an FF80+reducer (f4.8)+ 2600 duo and AM3 on early order (since May) for a new grab 'n go. I thought I did my homework but every time I watch a review I have to check, and I'm reminded of how lucky my choices were! Sounds like I'm still on a winner though! I'm looking forward to 'going wide' after two great years using a 533mc at f/5.6 on an Orion EON130 APO. Can't wait to get Andromeda, Rosette, Heart and Soul etc. in frame! The race is now on to see which part of the order comes in first... and gathers dust the longest! I'm advised that the AM3 starts shipping at end August '23. Guess you haven't got any news about the 2600 duo shipping date?
@@shorty1474 Aaaargh. Too late! They already shipped mine to somebody else who shouted harder! I have to wait a coupla weeks for new stock to come in. Doh.
With the 55-mm Canon lens, note that you are still guiding to about 1 pixel (guide camera pixel) accuracy; that just happens to be a lot of arc-seconds because the focal length is so short.
Thanks for the review. Your testing convincingly confirms that the “works-in-drawer” is not good. Moral of the story is to spend the extra $400 bucks. You save me from a huge mistake my friend.
Excellent test, thank you! I look forward to your test of the new 103 Askar, particularly how well it illuminates a full-frame sensor at f/4. They claim it has a 44mm image circle with the fast reducer but the amount of vignetting with the 2600’s APS sensor suggests not! Plus what’s the color correction like on such a low-cost 103mm scope? Clear skies!
Everything old becomes new again. (I sure hope that applies to us old people too...) I have an old sbig st-2000xcm with a guide chip and water cooling! I wonder if liquid cooling will make its way back too.
Nikkko, I have been waiting for this video. An acquaintance of mine at ZWO did a review. Yours was excellent showing the applications that this would work with, but not all scopes would work with this dual sensor camera. I have just finished my roll off roof observatory, and I am wondering if the duo would be a good fit for an Edge HD 800?
I may be wrong but going by the slither of tolerance my Celestron OAG's genereous prism requires for asi1600 (much smaller sensor) to get enough stars with C8+F6.3 FR, you'd be struggling. That's without NB.
Really hope you get to the above-mentioned Askar 103APO review soon. Its affordable for my budget, but just barely. I'm on the wait list here in Canada and its due to arrive in about 3 weeks.
I would be very interested in a mono version of this if the guide sensor was sensitive enough for 3nm filters. Seems like it would be given your results!
Hello, I wanted to buy a ZWO ASI2600MC Duo camera, but from what I saw on a website for sale of this type of video camera, it cannot be used for the Moon and planets, while the ZWO 2600 MC Pro-Color can be used. can you tell me the reason why?? Thank you.!!!!
What website? I can't imagine why they would say that. As stated in the video, it acts just like two cameras on the computer: an ASI2600MC and and an ASI220MM Mini. Anything you can do with the ASI2600MC Pro you can also do with the ASI2600MC Duo.
I am wondering if these sudden spikes are failures of subpixel guiding, where, due to atmospheric turbulence, PHD2 mistakenly thinks the star is on the wrong pixel. I'm not sure. They happen under a variety of conditions.
I don't have the funding for the duo camera, yet, but I wonder if it'd work with my 4se. It's f13, so the guider might not work so well for it. Plus it'd be kind of odd adding a camera that costs that much more than the scope lol. I'll check out Ben's video too though. 🙂
I wouldn't recommend it with that telescope. A 4se isn't designed for full frame imaging which is what you really need to illuminate the guide chip with this camera.
it is really just for anyone buy their first astro camera then you got two bird in one shot, for many of us, we already have a guide camera, an off axis guilder makes more sense, besides you can use it with narrowband filter. thanks for the review
Ideally, I adjust the gain and exposure time until PHD2 can find at least 5-6 stars for multi-star guiding. Exposure time also depends on your mount. Most traditional EQ mounts like 1-3 seconds, but the newer harmonic mounts sometimes like 0.5 seconds. In some extreme cases with these tests, I was only finding one star to guide on, so I just adjusted gain/exposure time until that one star was bright enough that PHD2 would lock on to it.
Thank you for this. Will be purchasing this beauty and combining it with Hyperstar on my C9.25xlt and will accompany my current asi533mc pro. Very excited
Is there any reason this couldn't be used on both an 8" Schmidt cassegrain with a f6.3 reduction as well as a Redcat 51? These are the 2 scopes I plan on keeping in my arsenal.
The Redcat 51, for sure. The 8” SCT with 0.63x reducer I’m a lot more hesitant on, I believe that the guide scope would not be illuminated very well with that combination. I’d suggest reaching out to the telescope manufacturer to see what they think. The telescope needs to be able to illuminate a full frame sensor for the DUO to work well.
@NebulaPhotos thanks for the reply and I apologize in advance for my ignorance! I just remembered the f6.3 isn't with a reducer. That's the designed focal ratio of my Meade 2080 LX6 8" "wide-field" scope. Does that matter for making this work or is the problem just the fact that it's a Schmidt Cassegrain?
@@OSCOCAT Unfortunately again I'm unsure, I couldn't find published specifications for the image circle of the telescope you mention. If the image circle is approx. 40mm or larger you would be fine. My guess (don't hold me to it) is that it will work with the right settings, but won't work as easily as with the Redcat 51.
You've been tremendously helpful. Thank you for taking the time to address my questions. And thank you, in particular, for taking the time to develop your channel towards this endeavor. A resource like this would've kept me in the hobby when I first dropped it 34 years ago. I'm excited to give round 2 a try!
Hi mate. Will your review of the askar 103 be out before we have to pre-order at the discount price which ends 30 sept? I am considering this with the AM5 and eagerly await your video...
Thank you for this very interesting video. I'm hesitating between buying a ASI 2600 MC and a ASI 2600 MC Duo. I have an EQ5 Pro with a SkyWatcher 80 ED (600 mm / 7.7). I also have an Optolong L-Ultimate dual-band filter (3nm Ha, 3nm OIII). Do you think the ASI 2600 MC duo will be able to guide with this configuration?
No expert here but I don't think the Duo will work well using the Dual Band filter [L-Ultimate]. I use this filter a lot so I am a bit disappointed that I would likely face frustration with guiding if purchased.
Would've loved to actually see results of dual band filters with this, something like the optolong duo 3nm, or the antlia 5nm alp-t, since you'd usually not use 3nm Ha filter with OSC, some might, but I think it's not the common use case.
Thoughts on using this with a dinosaur - like the Meade SCT - f10 with focal reducer to make it at f6.3? This would make it a 1260MM scope at f6.3. Looking at simplifying the setup after I complete the repairs on it. Similar to most of the other 8 inch SCT around.
I'm curious on this too! I was thinking of pair my 9.25.most people are using the 42mm adapter I would assume. would that that be large enough or bump up to the 48mm adapter?
Was curious what the guide settings are at. I'm shooting with a zwo 80ff the duo and a L-eNhance filter. 1s exposure @472 gain. Getting around 0.50" avg. Is there better settings? Guide screen looks all noisy, i'm in focus and have alot of stars to guide from.
Can you use this camera as a stand alone APS-C with an external guide camera and using ZWO ASIAIR? Or does the ASIAIR not give you that option? The versatility of using an external guided setup would always be available then as well as this internal guide setup. If i find that it does not work with a particular setup, then i can talk back on an external setup and use the same camera. Best of both worlds?
Problem is using this camera with 1000mm on a region with quite no stars and narrowband filter. If you live in a city its basicly not possible guide with it.
It has been a month now since you made this video. Do you still recommend this camera AND will the autoguiding work with Nexstar 8SE and this camera do you recommend? (I am actuall in the market for new camera in this price range)
Yes, I still recommend it with the caveats around narrowband filters and slow focal ratio that I present in the video. So with your f/10 scope, it should* work okay with no filter, but I wouldn't suggest narrowband filters with small bandpasses. *I say 'should' because I haven't personally tested with that scope or any f/10 SCT **Have you removed the SCT from the original Nexstar Alt-az mount and put it on an equatorial mount? I'm not sure I'd suggest an expensive autoguiding solution like this on an alt-az mount. You will be limited to short exposures anyways due to field rotation, so if still on the Nexstar mount, I don't think that upgrade path makes sense. Cheers, Nico
@@NebulaPhotos Thank you for taking time out and reply, I really appreciate that. Yes, I will be using this with Sky Watcher EQ6-R mount. I am just not sure if Image Circle of Celestron Nexstar 8SE will be ok for this or not. Also, the focal length of my telescope is 2000 and Aperture is 203mm.
Hmmm, that's too restrictive to my taste. I'll stick to the guide scope at F4 and a 178MM that always give me my 9 stars to guide with, even with 0.5s exposure. Something I find odd about this ZWO duo concept is the fact that it is mostly targeted at beginners who will not likely buy a full frame sensor illuminating scope...
That is not the right kind of telescope for this camera IMO. I don't think you will typically find enough suitable guide stars given the specs of that telescope. For guiding that, I'd suggest either a large guide scope (80mm) or an OAG with a large guide chip (ASI174MM).
To@@NebulaPhotos Thank you for your reply and this information. I had a thought that this would be so. Even though my scope is GPS guided I thought it would be handy to just pick an object and fix on it. I am a beginner hence there is some learning to do.
@@NebulaPhotos Hi Nico - I plan to keep it because I love the sensor - this is my third of this type. I plan to install it on my TOA130 F5.3 at 700mm and remove the OAG on that scope. Thank you
For ASIair users this camera will be necessary if someone wants also use *all* ZWO extras and not overshoot on the USB-Ports: USB Port: 1) Mount 2) Camera - Duo 3) USB-Stick 4) EAF 5) Filter-Wheel 6) CAA !!!!!! (Camera Angle Ajuster)
I am not able to find guidestars most times with DUO and Edge 8 and 0.7x reducer. hardly one or two blurry instable stars, and loses quite often. not able to even calibrate at times. focus on main camera is tact sharp. tried increasing gain and exposure no luck. tried turining fine focus knob of DUO no luck. am trying on galaxies such as whirlpool, bode's and cigars. can you (or anyone else on this thread) help what am i missing please.
My guess (caveat - I don't own the EDGE 8 or reducer and none of this is actually tested): The 0.7x reducer brings the usable field of the EDGE 8 down to an APS-C sized field, meaning the guide sensor on the DUO isn't getting much light. Unfortunately that's not a good combination for the DUO. You may have better luck using the DUO with the EDGE 8 in it's native configuration because the usable field is larger.
@@NebulaPhotos ok thank you,. appreciate it. let me try with native FL. but wouldn't native FL bring lesser guide stars, as it is narrower field of view, and also slower?
@@sreeshab4093 Yes, you may have trouble well off the plane of the milky way with that (same problem with an OAG), but my guess is it still will work better than the reducer with its image circle that is too small.
3:00 very good point. I was started to be excited by this MC duo... but since the filters are gonna filter the light for the guiding sensor too.. it actually sounds like a good bad idea. In essence, this wouldn't be usable with narrowband filters, which if you are aiming for serious work, are (almost) mandatory. Having said that, it is the same issue for OAG too. Just never thought of it as I have always been using an external guider..
Check out the tests at the end. It works fine with 7nm dual narrowband even at f/6.8 which I think is a typical use case. It also worked fine with a single line 3nm narrowband at f/4. At f/6.8, I had some trouble with the 3nm, but am now thinking that was user error (see pinned comment). So due to the sensitivity of this new guide camera, I’m not sure if narrowband is going to be an issue unless you are doing something extreme (3nm at f/10).
Nice review, Nico. This ZWO arrangement, not my cup of tea. I’m inclined towards mono, 3nm narrowband filters and the flexibility of main scope and guide scope independent of each other.
3:10 is that extra camera bolted on really worth 200 though? I mean if you can buy a 1800$ camera you can buy a 2000$ camera but wouldn't someone making a choice like this already have a guide camera and scope? I think a system like this would be GREAT in the sub 1000$ range because people can just go from unguided to guided easily.
Hard to say. I'm seeing more and more people either: 1. Going straight from DSLR+Lens+Star tracker to Astrocam+small telescope+AM5 or 2. Going straight into a full setup with guiding with no prior astrophotography experience So I think it could sell well for either of those groups, because if you don't already have guiding that $200 extra is actually a nice savings over getting guiding separately. You are right that I think it would be a hard sell if you already have a guidescope and guide camera. I addressed that a bit from a slightly different angle in the video talking about the flexibility of the separate guidescope/camera if you upgrade cameras in the future.
@@NebulaPhotos I guess those paths are a bit different than what my experience has been so far. I just started AP and immediately went to a custom f5.3 refractor and a DSLR. Half the fun for me is building my own equipment.
Not sure why it was conveyed the camera and guide sensor are “paired”. If one ran into a difficult guiding situation with 3nm filters, you could add an OAG and additional guide camera to resolve those odd situations. Just select the other guide camera if needed.
Aesthetically, many of us prefer round stars. Round stars are also an indication that your tracking/guiding is working properly, which I believe was the context here.
@@NebulaPhotos If we try to discover novae in M 31 or supernovae in galaxies, we check if the new object have the same point spread as the surrounding stars. To distinguish from hot pixels. Then check with a reference image. Or in searching for asteroids or comets the star shapes are not so important.
@@NebulaPhotos Forgot to mention, if pinpoint stars is your goal the mounting is the issue, not the ZWO camera you demonstrate. I have an ST-7 and ST-10 CCD both with guide sensors, and it is always the quality of the mount and the brightness of the GuideStar which determine the point spread of the stars. If your goal is an image through a 3 nm filter, you need guiding exposures up to 10 sec. and be happy with your images. You got your target even if the stars are not points. ( Unless you are rich and have a 10 Micron GM mount )
“ZWO sent me camera for review “. Do you think they send you ordinary camera? They have checked it 100 times before sending to you. This is a reason all these reviews may not present reality. For about reviewing Teledyne camera or new Tak TOA 130 with whooping 1um star size?
Yes, reviews from people like me cannot address quality control issues for the reason you identify. I try to give my opinions about the design of the camera and who should consider buying one. The tests I think are perfectly valid since the sensors won’t change. I’ll look into telydyne cameras and see if I can find someone to supply one for review. The Tak is very unlikely. Premium stuff like that usually doesn’t need any help from UA-camrs to sell, so the companies have no incentive to send me one for review. They aren’t mass market items like sharpstar and zwo products. I can’t afford to buy a toa130 myself so the only way I could get one to review on the channel is if someone sends me one to try.
@@NebulaPhotos Ok. Your reviews are great. Always was. It is just buying mass production equipment based on review is so unpredictable and unreliable. I have got couple of lemons this way. Teledyne is scientific grade camera. I think they will behave like Tak.
I’m new to Astrophotography, but I’m going to go out on a limb here and say: If there was a camera sensor that could capture stars through a narrowband filter with half second to 2 second exposures wouldn’t that be the “go to”sensor design for snr qe and well depth? At f10 this is unusable behind a narrowband/ dual band filter, isn’t it? It doesn’t seem to solve any problems introduced in long focal length ota’s And it doesn’t seem to improve guide scopes with a guide camera. I know it’s been said that it’s been 20 years or so since this concept last was tried and sensors are Better. If that was the case they wouldn’t be using the 290mm chip, which to my knowledge can’t expose at 5 seconds behind a 0iii filter and capture any meaningful light or discern stars from noise. Am I wrong?
It’s not the 290mm chip (2.9 micron pixels), it is the newer 220mm chip (4 micron pixels with better QE). There are pros/cons to any guiding setup, but I think this one would appeal to plenty of imagers. It solves a major problem with guidescopes: differential flexure. Very long focal length at f/10 or slower with 3nm filters, you would probably still want to go OAG, especially if you can rotate the OAG. Just because the duo doesn’t replace the OAG for that particular use case, doesn’t make it a failed concept to my mind. I think most people doing narrowband with that kind of scope wouldn’t be using an OSC anyways.
I want to see how this performs against Canon lenses for example Canon EF 300mm F/2.8 with and without the teleconverter 1.4x from Canon, i believe this lens is almost in same aperture size of this scope maybe very slightly bigger not sure.
Also to add to my question, which dual narrowband filter you might prefer or suggest if using the lens at F2 up to F3-F3.5? I don't like to stop down the lenses apertures.
No, check out the many popular videos on my channel. I have lots of instruction on Astrophotography with normal photography gear you may already have. This video is for a particular audience that is interested in reviews of the latest gear in the hobby.
However, if $6000 is uncomfortable, then going for more than “DSO lite” is likely not a good choice of hobby… kinda like aviation… generally, it is just not cheap. Add in all the accessories you’ll eventually want, it goes higher.
@@donlindgren109 Just watched AstroBackyard's $1k vs. $10K rig and gee that was a HUGE difference. ua-cam.com/video/mOJ6qBK-bs0/v-deo.html $1,000 image quality, to me, was dreadful, but I must admit the $10,000 was stunning.
Next watch my video: astrophotography from $100 to $10,000 - check out what’s possible with the $2,500 kit: ua-cam.com/video/Xc1v6BjHm8U/v-deo.html most people in the comments feel there is only a marginal difference between the $2,500 and $10,000 kit
@@NebulaPhotos Thanks, I had already seen your video ( I watch them all.. out of jealousy!), serious thanks for how much you do to contribute to the field. :) I already have a bunch of DSLR's so I am trying to decide which one to have modified - the Sony a6300 or the Canon D80. Hopefully your video on the subject can answer a few questions on that topic.
The guide results for 3nm F/6.8 at 18:23 looks like the camera could’ve been rotated after guider calibration. If that happens, you see corrections in one axis appear in the other until you have a runaway effect.
Oh, shoot. I think you are right! I wonder if my paranoia about not wanting adapter getting stuck meant that the camera rotated on filter change and then I forgot to re-calibrate. It was the last filter of the night so I wouldn’t be surprised that I made that mistake. Good spotting!
Got mine in the mail. I can’t wait for the clouds to go away!
Awesome video. Every through and detailed. I wish I had thought to compare the guiding data like you did. Look like the vignette on that 55 must be really sharp. And thank you for the mention too.
Duo also makes sense for a portable small travel set. Less to take and carry along, less weight, less cables that could snack or be forgotten on that trip ;-). With smaller harmonic drive mounts coming up and Rπ-based plate solving and full system control, soon all you need is a small backpack for a full imaging set-up. We are all getting so spoiled.
Agreed, especially with OSC version.
Finally a comprehensive review. Thank you
Excellent review Nico! I have been considering the upgrade to the Duo and now I have more information to use in my decision. Clear Skies
Nice review Nico -very informative. That image with the Ha at f/4 loks good. I used to shoot Ha the astronomik clip-in and with my Canon T3i/600d mod years ago. Nobody seems to use Ha alone with OSC cameras anymore. I also noticed that you had an Askar OAG, I did not know they made one. - Cheers Kurt
I am using the Askar OAG with the Askar filter drawer, all at 54 mm threads. Excellent performance and very practical in this combination.
SBIG did this with their CCD cameras back in early 2000's (ST-10, ST-2000, STL-11000), which worked fine with LRGB filters. Narrowband filters were challenging for the guide sensor.
Good review thanks Nico… This is a good companion to Ben’s review.
Thanks for testing on such a diversity of scopes and lenses! Looking forward to the review of the new Askar 103 APO. I just got my FF130, which is an amazing scope. Let’s see how the 103mm APO will live up to the PHQs.
Thanks Nico, many questions answered : )
not surprised at the f/6.8 3nm results but pleasantly surprised at the 7nm. thanks for this review. i now know to avoid this camaera fro my rig. but, it looks like this is a fair option for those with fast set ups.
I'm borrowing the ZWO asi294mc pro. The other day, we took our 14 inch telescope off the stand, and it fell and crushed the camera. We caught it in time so that the telescope was ok. The camera works, although I can't use the cooler because when the cooler is running, it crashes the camera
The same happened with my MEADE LX200 16" my camera is dust
Since you tried canon 18-55mm, it would be interesting to see how a canon 50mm f1.8 do as it is a full frame lens. Hope you make that happen in a future video.
Oh... the new Askar 103... you got all the new toys LOL :)
Great review - you’re the only one who tells the truth about this camera not working with 3nm narrowband. The other reviews make it sound like it work. My experience is the same as yours. I just got one and it does NOT work at F8 at 2000mm narrowband (3nm). The FL is also important because it zooms in so less chance of bright stars
Yes, I didn't have anything to test at that focal length, but that makes total sense to me. It might have actually worked at 700mm, f/6.8 I was using (see pinned comment - I likely messed up by forgetting to re-calibrate the guider), but at 2000mm focal length, f/8, 3nm, I wouldn't expect it to work. Hopefully I made that clear in the video. Sounds like I did. Thanks for letting us know!
Thanks Nico!
Very nice review Nico! Very happy to hear this (seen Ben's review too)! I have an FF80+reducer (f4.8)+ 2600 duo and AM3 on early order (since May) for a new grab 'n go. I thought I did my homework but every time I watch a review I have to check, and I'm reminded of how lucky my choices were! Sounds like I'm still on a winner though! I'm looking forward to 'going wide' after two great years using a 533mc at f/5.6 on an Orion EON130 APO. Can't wait to get Andromeda, Rosette, Heart and Soul etc. in frame! The race is now on to see which part of the order comes in first... and gathers dust the longest! I'm advised that the AM3 starts shipping at end August '23. Guess you haven't got any news about the 2600 duo shipping date?
It’s shipping now!
@@shorty1474 Time to ask them then. Thanks!
@@shorty1474 Aaaargh. Too late! They already shipped mine to somebody else who shouted harder! I have to wait a coupla weeks for new stock to come in. Doh.
Do you have a video of your setup with the canon lens? Curious about the mounting rings and also how you are doing the control. Thanks for the videos!
With the 55-mm Canon lens, note that you are still guiding to about 1 pixel (guide camera pixel) accuracy; that just happens to be a lot of arc-seconds because the focal length is so short.
Good point!
Hi, love your channel. Can you please review the Askar 103 APO soon. I’m in the process of getting a 4" FF Astrograph and this is one I’m looking at.
Review coming very soon
Thanks for the review. Your testing convincingly confirms that the “works-in-drawer” is not good. Moral of the story is to spend the extra $400 bucks. You save me from a huge mistake my friend.
thorough and logical!
Oh sick! Interesting
Excellent test, thank you! I look forward to your test of the new 103 Askar, particularly how well it illuminates a full-frame sensor at f/4. They claim it has a 44mm image circle with the fast reducer but the amount of vignetting with the 2600’s APS sensor suggests not! Plus what’s the color correction like on such a low-cost 103mm scope? Clear skies!
Everything old becomes new again. (I sure hope that applies to us old people too...) I have an old sbig st-2000xcm with a guide chip and water cooling! I wonder if liquid cooling will make its way back too.
Nikkko, I have been waiting for this video. An acquaintance of mine at ZWO did a review. Yours was excellent showing the applications that this would work with, but not all scopes would work with this dual sensor camera.
I have just finished my roll off roof observatory, and I am wondering if the duo would be a good fit for an Edge HD 800?
I may be wrong but going by the slither of tolerance my Celestron OAG's genereous prism requires for asi1600 (much smaller sensor) to get enough stars with C8+F6.3 FR, you'd be struggling. That's without NB.
Really hope you get to the above-mentioned Askar 103APO review soon. Its affordable for my budget, but just barely. I'm on the wait list here in Canada and its due to arrive in about 3 weeks.
I have all the testing done. Should be about another week to finish the video I hope.
@@NebulaPhotos Thank you so much! That timing should work perfectly.
I would be very interested in a mono version of this if the guide sensor was sensitive enough for 3nm filters. Seems like it would be given your results!
the smaller sensor should be mono
شكرا لكم ❤
Hello, I wanted to buy a ZWO ASI2600MC Duo camera, but from what I saw on a website for sale of this type of video camera, it cannot be used for the Moon and planets, while the ZWO 2600 MC Pro-Color can be used. can you tell me the reason why?? Thank you.!!!!
What website? I can't imagine why they would say that. As stated in the video, it acts just like two cameras on the computer: an ASI2600MC and and an ASI220MM Mini. Anything you can do with the ASI2600MC Pro you can also do with the ASI2600MC Duo.
I am wondering if these sudden spikes are failures of subpixel guiding, where, due to atmospheric turbulence, PHD2 mistakenly thinks the star is on the wrong pixel. I'm not sure. They happen under a variety of conditions.
I don't have the funding for the duo camera, yet, but I wonder if it'd work with my 4se. It's f13, so the guider might not work so well for it.
Plus it'd be kind of odd adding a camera that costs that much more than the scope lol.
I'll check out Ben's video too though. 🙂
I wouldn't recommend it with that telescope. A 4se isn't designed for full frame imaging which is what you really need to illuminate the guide chip with this camera.
I prefer separate guide camera that I can use then for planetary adventures. Another benefit as you mentioned, flexibility.
Just like the duo camera, Sky-Watcher AZ-EQ6 Pro SynScan mount a good all-in-one solution, or do I need to buy individual mounts?
it is really just for anyone buy their first astro camera then you got two bird in one shot, for many of us, we already have a guide camera, an off axis guilder makes more sense, besides you can use it with narrowband filter. thanks for the review
Hi Nico,
Thank you for this video, how do you get to the optimal gain and exposure time for your guiding camera?
Ideally, I adjust the gain and exposure time until PHD2 can find at least 5-6 stars for multi-star guiding. Exposure time also depends on your mount. Most traditional EQ mounts like 1-3 seconds, but the newer harmonic mounts sometimes like 0.5 seconds.
In some extreme cases with these tests, I was only finding one star to guide on, so I just adjusted gain/exposure time until that one star was bright enough that PHD2 would lock on to it.
Thank you for this. Will be purchasing this beauty and combining it with Hyperstar on my C9.25xlt and will accompany my current asi533mc pro. Very excited
Is there any reason this couldn't be used on both an 8" Schmidt cassegrain with a f6.3 reduction as well as a Redcat 51? These are the 2 scopes I plan on keeping in my arsenal.
The Redcat 51, for sure. The 8” SCT with 0.63x reducer I’m a lot more hesitant on, I believe that the guide scope would not be illuminated very well with that combination. I’d suggest reaching out to the telescope manufacturer to see what they think. The telescope needs to be able to illuminate a full frame sensor for the DUO to work well.
@NebulaPhotos thanks for the reply and I apologize in advance for my ignorance! I just remembered the f6.3 isn't with a reducer. That's the designed focal ratio of my Meade 2080 LX6 8" "wide-field" scope. Does that matter for making this work or is the problem just the fact that it's a Schmidt Cassegrain?
@@OSCOCAT Unfortunately again I'm unsure, I couldn't find published specifications for the image circle of the telescope you mention. If the image circle is approx. 40mm or larger you would be fine. My guess (don't hold me to it) is that it will work with the right settings, but won't work as easily as with the Redcat 51.
You've been tremendously helpful. Thank you for taking the time to address my questions. And thank you, in particular, for taking the time to develop your channel towards this endeavor. A resource like this would've kept me in the hobby when I first dropped it 34 years ago. I'm excited to give round 2 a try!
I am used to take the shoot of Star with my Kase star light filters, make my photos look better.
Hi mate. Will your review of the askar 103 be out before we have to pre-order at the discount price which ends 30 sept? I am considering this with the AM5 and eagerly await your video...
Yes, should be out later today, or tomorrow at the latest
hi, nice video! Can you tell me if the integrated guide can be "deactivated" in favor of an external guide?
Yes, it’s always on, but you would just choose the external guider rather than the internal guider in your software package (PHD2, ASIAir, etc.)
Would you recommend this camera for the celestron edge hd 11 telescope?
Thank you for this very interesting video.
I'm hesitating between buying a ASI 2600 MC and a ASI 2600 MC Duo.
I have an EQ5 Pro with a SkyWatcher 80 ED (600 mm / 7.7). I also have an Optolong L-Ultimate dual-band filter (3nm Ha, 3nm OIII).
Do you think the ASI 2600 MC duo will be able to guide with this configuration?
No expert here but I don't think the Duo will work well using the Dual Band filter [L-Ultimate]. I use this filter a lot so I am a bit disappointed that I would likely face frustration with guiding if purchased.
Would've loved to actually see results of dual band filters with this, something like the optolong duo 3nm, or the antlia 5nm alp-t, since you'd usually not use 3nm Ha filter with OSC, some might, but I think it's not the common use case.
Thoughts on using this with a dinosaur - like the Meade SCT - f10 with focal reducer to make it at f6.3?
This would make it a 1260MM scope at f6.3.
Looking at simplifying the setup after I complete the repairs on it.
Similar to most of the other 8 inch SCT around.
I'm curious on this too! I was thinking of pair my 9.25.most people are using the 42mm adapter I would assume. would that that be large enough or bump up to the 48mm adapter?
So what if the best guide star is slightly out of shot and your limited to maybe dimmer stars in your view?
Was curious what the guide settings are at. I'm shooting with a zwo 80ff the duo and a L-eNhance filter. 1s exposure @472 gain. Getting around 0.50" avg. Is there better settings? Guide screen looks all noisy, i'm in focus and have alot of stars to guide from.
That sounds good. Can't go wrong with 0.5" RMS.
Can you use this camera as a stand alone APS-C with an external guide camera and using ZWO ASIAIR? Or does the ASIAIR not give you that option? The versatility of using an external guided setup would always be available then as well as this internal guide setup. If i find that it does not work with a particular setup, then i can talk back on an external setup and use the same camera. Best of both worlds?
i can see a lot of dust on the sensor
how do you clean that?
i might get this camera in the future so i'm curious to know
I typically take flat frames that takes care of that. It's hard to keep all dust off.
Off topic, but does this mount work well with PHD2 guiding?
Yes, it does. With 1s or 0.5” guide exposures
Problem is using this camera with 1000mm on a region with quite no stars and narrowband filter. If you live in a city its basicly not possible guide with it.
00:30 E X T R E M E L Y P R E C I C E!!!!
Quick question for you; Does the SkyWatcher 72 ED telescope has enough "opening" to iluminate the guide sensor also, or its too small for this camera?
Looks like it has an image circle of 44mm, so yes, it should work fine. (Since I haven't tested this combo myself, I can't be absolutely sure)
@@NebulaPhotos Thanks for the answer!
It has been a month now since you made this video. Do you still recommend this camera AND will the autoguiding work with Nexstar 8SE and this camera do you recommend? (I am actuall in the market for new camera in this price range)
Yes, I still recommend it with the caveats around narrowband filters and slow focal ratio that I present in the video. So with your f/10 scope, it should* work okay with no filter, but I wouldn't suggest narrowband filters with small bandpasses.
*I say 'should' because I haven't personally tested with that scope or any f/10 SCT
**Have you removed the SCT from the original Nexstar Alt-az mount and put it on an equatorial mount? I'm not sure I'd suggest an expensive autoguiding solution like this on an alt-az mount. You will be limited to short exposures anyways due to field rotation, so if still on the Nexstar mount, I don't think that upgrade path makes sense.
Cheers, Nico
@@NebulaPhotos Thank you for taking time out and reply, I really appreciate that. Yes, I will be using this with Sky Watcher EQ6-R mount. I am just not sure if Image Circle of Celestron Nexstar 8SE will be ok for this or not. Also, the focal length of my telescope is 2000 and Aperture is 203mm.
Hmmm, that's too restrictive to my taste. I'll stick to the guide scope at F4 and a 178MM that always give me my 9 stars to guide with, even with 0.5s exposure. Something I find odd about this ZWO duo concept is the fact that it is mostly targeted at beginners who will not likely buy a full frame sensor illuminating scope...
I wonder how it will work with a 6” GSO RC that is f/9
Can I use this due camera with sensor to link to my mead 14" LX200 Telescope? Would anyone know this please.
That is not the right kind of telescope for this camera IMO. I don't think you will typically find enough suitable guide stars given the specs of that telescope. For guiding that, I'd suggest either a large guide scope (80mm) or an OAG with a large guide chip (ASI174MM).
To@@NebulaPhotos Thank you for your reply and this information. I had a thought that this would be so. Even though my scope is GPS guided I thought it would be handy to just pick an object and fix on it. I am a beginner hence there is some learning to do.
Well done - I just got one and it does NOT work at F8 at 2000mm narrowband (3nm)
Good to know, and I'm not surprised. Are you going to return it?
@@NebulaPhotos Hi Nico - I plan to keep it because I love the sensor - this is my third of this type. I plan to install it on my TOA130 F5.3 at 700mm and remove the OAG on that scope. Thank you
Interesting…. Lot of information that wasn’t out like the thread size difference.
For ASIair users this camera will be necessary if someone wants also use *all* ZWO extras and not overshoot on the USB-Ports:
USB Port:
1) Mount
2) Camera - Duo
3) USB-Stick
4) EAF
5) Filter-Wheel
6) CAA !!!!!! (Camera Angle Ajuster)
I am not able to find guidestars most times with DUO and Edge 8 and 0.7x reducer. hardly one or two blurry instable stars, and loses quite often. not able to even calibrate at times. focus on main camera is tact sharp. tried increasing gain and exposure no luck. tried turining fine focus knob of DUO no luck. am trying on galaxies such as whirlpool, bode's and cigars. can you (or anyone else on this thread) help what am i missing please.
My guess (caveat - I don't own the EDGE 8 or reducer and none of this is actually tested):
The 0.7x reducer brings the usable field of the EDGE 8 down to an APS-C sized field, meaning the guide sensor on the DUO isn't getting much light. Unfortunately that's not a good combination for the DUO. You may have better luck using the DUO with the EDGE 8 in it's native configuration because the usable field is larger.
@@NebulaPhotos ok thank you,. appreciate it. let me try with native FL. but wouldn't native FL bring lesser guide stars, as it is narrower field of view, and also slower?
@@sreeshab4093 Yes, you may have trouble well off the plane of the milky way with that (same problem with an OAG), but my guess is it still will work better than the reducer with its image circle that is too small.
@@NebulaPhotos ok thank you, appreciate it
Can this work with RedCat 61 WIFD ?
Yes, definitely
Does Duo come with software x 2 for guiding?
It shows up on the computer (or ASIAir) as two cameras. From there, you can guide as you normally would. Just pick the ASI220 for guiding.
@@NebulaPhotos thank you
3:00 very good point. I was started to be excited by this MC duo... but since the filters are gonna filter the light for the guiding sensor too.. it actually sounds like a good bad idea. In essence, this wouldn't be usable with narrowband filters, which if you are aiming for serious work, are (almost) mandatory. Having said that, it is the same issue for OAG too. Just never thought of it as I have always been using an external guider..
Check out the tests at the end. It works fine with 7nm dual narrowband even at f/6.8 which I think is a typical use case. It also worked fine with a single line 3nm narrowband at f/4. At f/6.8, I had some trouble with the 3nm, but am now thinking that was user error (see pinned comment). So due to the sensitivity of this new guide camera, I’m not sure if narrowband is going to be an issue unless you are doing something extreme (3nm at f/10).
Can you comment on the 103 APO please?
Review coming soon - 2-4 weeks.
Any oil?
No, I think that was mainly limited to the first run of the ASI2600 and hasn’t been a problem with recent manufacturing runs.
Are those 5 min subs?
3:04 "only" 200$ more! Me with equipment worthing 200$ total 😢
If you know of guiding, which most will or you won't be here. Skip to 9:38, saved me a packet.
Nice review, Nico. This ZWO arrangement, not my cup of tea. I’m inclined towards mono, 3nm narrowband filters and the flexibility of main scope and guide scope independent of each other.
3:10 is that extra camera bolted on really worth 200 though? I mean if you can buy a 1800$ camera you can buy a 2000$ camera but wouldn't someone making a choice like this already have a guide camera and scope? I think a system like this would be GREAT in the sub 1000$ range because people can just go from unguided to guided easily.
Hard to say. I'm seeing more and more people either:
1. Going straight from DSLR+Lens+Star tracker to Astrocam+small telescope+AM5
or
2. Going straight into a full setup with guiding with no prior astrophotography experience
So I think it could sell well for either of those groups, because if you don't already have guiding that $200 extra is actually a nice savings over getting guiding separately. You are right that I think it would be a hard sell if you already have a guidescope and guide camera. I addressed that a bit from a slightly different angle in the video talking about the flexibility of the separate guidescope/camera if you upgrade cameras in the future.
@@NebulaPhotos I guess those paths are a bit different than what my experience has been so far. I just started AP and immediately went to a custom f5.3 refractor and a DSLR. Half the fun for me is building my own equipment.
I wonder if anyone has debayered their IMX571 sensor on this to create a monochrome version
I never know astrophotography will get this deep. All i thought is just put the camera on the tripod and set the shutter to 30s
Main problem with the all in one set up is more instruments in one unit will likely have more possible faults.
Not sure why it was conveyed the camera and guide sensor are “paired”. If one ran into a difficult guiding situation with 3nm filters, you could add an OAG and additional guide camera to resolve those odd situations. Just select the other guide camera if needed.
What is wrong with not round stars ? The true nature of a star is that it is pointlike.
Aesthetically, many of us prefer round stars. Round stars are also an indication that your tracking/guiding is working properly, which I believe was the context here.
@@NebulaPhotos So nothing is wrong. Especially on comets it is natural.
@@otrondal Sorry I'm not sure what you are getting at? Are you referring to a particular part of the video?
@@NebulaPhotos If we try to discover novae in M 31 or supernovae in galaxies, we check if the new object have the same point spread as the surrounding stars. To distinguish from hot pixels. Then check with a reference image.
Or in searching for asteroids or comets the star shapes are not so important.
@@NebulaPhotos Forgot to mention, if pinpoint stars is your goal the mounting is the issue, not the ZWO camera you demonstrate. I have an ST-7 and ST-10 CCD both with guide sensors, and it is always the quality of the mount and the brightness of the GuideStar which determine the point spread of the stars.
If your goal is an image through a 3 nm filter, you need guiding exposures up to 10 sec. and be happy with your images. You got your target even if the stars are not points. ( Unless you are rich and have a 10 Micron GM mount )
“ZWO sent me camera for review “. Do you think they send you ordinary camera? They have checked it 100 times before sending to you.
This is a reason all these reviews may not present reality.
For about reviewing Teledyne camera or new Tak TOA 130 with whooping 1um star size?
Yes, reviews from people like me cannot address quality control issues for the reason you identify. I try to give my opinions about the design of the camera and who should consider buying one. The tests I think are perfectly valid since the sensors won’t change. I’ll look into telydyne cameras and see if I can find someone to supply one for review. The Tak is very unlikely. Premium stuff like that usually doesn’t need any help from UA-camrs to sell, so the companies have no incentive to send me one for review. They aren’t mass market items like sharpstar and zwo products. I can’t afford to buy a toa130 myself so the only way I could get one to review on the channel is if someone sends me one to try.
@@NebulaPhotos Ok. Your reviews are great. Always was. It is just buying mass production equipment based on review is so unpredictable and unreliable. I have got couple of lemons this way.
Teledyne is scientific grade camera. I think they will behave like Tak.
I’m new to Astrophotography, but I’m going to go out on a limb here and say:
If there was a camera sensor that could capture stars through a narrowband filter with half second to 2 second exposures wouldn’t that be the “go to”sensor design for snr qe and well depth?
At f10 this is unusable behind a narrowband/ dual band filter, isn’t it?
It doesn’t seem to solve any problems introduced in long focal length ota’s
And it doesn’t seem to improve guide scopes with a guide camera.
I know it’s been said that it’s been 20 years or so since this concept last was tried and sensors are Better. If that was the case they wouldn’t be using the 290mm chip, which to my knowledge can’t expose at 5 seconds behind a 0iii filter and capture any meaningful light or discern stars from noise.
Am I wrong?
It’s not the 290mm chip (2.9 micron pixels), it is the newer 220mm chip (4 micron pixels with better QE). There are pros/cons to any guiding setup, but I think this one would appeal to plenty of imagers. It solves a major problem with guidescopes: differential flexure. Very long focal length at f/10 or slower with 3nm filters, you would probably still want to go OAG, especially if you can rotate the OAG. Just because the duo doesn’t replace the OAG for that particular use case, doesn’t make it a failed concept to my mind. I think most people doing narrowband with that kind of scope wouldn’t be using an OSC anyways.
I want to see how this performs against Canon lenses for example Canon EF 300mm F/2.8 with and without the teleconverter 1.4x from Canon, i believe this lens is almost in same aperture size of this scope maybe very slightly bigger not sure.
Also to add to my question, which dual narrowband filter you might prefer or suggest if using the lens at F2 up to F3-F3.5? I don't like to stop down the lenses apertures.
Gear links...
ok so if I want to take decent astrophotographs.... $6,000... got it :(
No, check out the many popular videos on my channel. I have lots of instruction on Astrophotography with normal photography gear you may already have. This video is for a particular audience that is interested in reviews of the latest gear in the hobby.
However, if $6000 is uncomfortable, then going for more than “DSO lite” is likely not a good choice of hobby… kinda like aviation… generally, it is just not cheap. Add in all the accessories you’ll eventually want, it goes higher.
@@donlindgren109 Just watched AstroBackyard's $1k vs. $10K rig and gee that was a HUGE difference. ua-cam.com/video/mOJ6qBK-bs0/v-deo.html
$1,000 image quality, to me, was dreadful, but I must admit the $10,000 was stunning.
Next watch my video: astrophotography from $100 to $10,000 - check out what’s possible with the $2,500 kit: ua-cam.com/video/Xc1v6BjHm8U/v-deo.html most people in the comments feel there is only a marginal difference between the $2,500 and $10,000 kit
@@NebulaPhotos Thanks, I had already seen your video ( I watch them all.. out of jealousy!), serious thanks for how much you do to contribute to the field. :)
I already have a bunch of DSLR's so I am trying to decide which one to have modified - the Sony a6300 or the Canon D80. Hopefully your video on the subject can answer a few questions on that topic.
Does the 2600 still have a problem with oil from the thermal paste leaking out onto the sensor ?