Poor Running Buick LeSabre
Вставка
- Опубліковано 22 сер 2024
- Come along with Eric O. and Ivan T. from "Pine Hollow Auto Diagnostics" as we have a look at this 2002 Buick LeSabre 3.8 Series II that was towed in from Buffalo, NY. The car is only running on two cylinders with a P0300 and we need to figure out why. We also make a phone call to a mutual friend Keith D. Owner of "New Level Auto" and we learn a lot along the way as Ivan shares some of his scope captures from a recent case study he did. Enjoy!
Ivan's Channel: / motoyam82
Keith D. From New Level: / @newlevelauto
Interested in stuff seen in the videos or the tools and toys Eric O. likes and uses? Check out the S.M.A. "A-Store" and help support the channel! : astore.amazon.c...
If an SMA Video has helped you out please consider giving using "Patreon" to help support us. The videos take real time to create and pull us away from real work that pays our bills. CLICK HERE: www.patreon.co...
THANKS A MILLION!!
--Eric O.
WANT AN "SMA" STICKER OF YOUR OWN!?!
Simply send and E-mail to SMAstickers@outlook.com including: your shipping address and e-mail address in the text, I in turn will send you a paypal invoice for $5 each USA or $6 each international. Let me know how many you want and as soon as the paypal invoice is paid I will ship them out ASAP! Thanks for your support of our channel!!
--Eric & Vanessa O.
Feel like sending some swag to SMA because you love the videos but don't know where to send it?
Just ship it here:
South Main Auto Repair
47 S. Main St
PO Box 471
Avoca, NY 14809
OTC Evolve Provided By Bosh
Disclaimer:
Due to factors beyond the control of South Main Auto Repair, it cannot guarantee against unauthorized modifications of this information, or improper use of this information. South Main Auto Repair assumes no liability for property damage or injury incurred as a result of any of the information contained in this video. South Main Auto Repair recommends safe practices when working with power tools, automotive lifts, lifting tools, jack stands, electrical equipment, blunt instruments, chemicals, lubricants, or any other tools or equipment seen or implied in this video. Due to factors beyond the control of South Main Auto Repair, no information contained in this video shall create any express or implied warranty or guarantee of any particular result. Any injury, damage or loss that may result from improper use of these tools, equipment, or the information contained in this video is the sole responsibility of the user and not South Main Auto Repair.
![[UA] Team Vitality проти NAVI | IEM Cologne 2024](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/wttO1zVRTC0/mqdefault.jpg)
I am a retired mechanic and feel the joy these guys are going through. Troubleshooting test your skills to the limit. Love it.
Just wanted to give you guys a huge thanks. My wife's buick had the very same problem, I threw a few parts at her with no luck. I came across your video by chance. The car had been sitting for a month, and I was about to give up and bring her to the stealership. I did the exact trouble shooting you guys did and replaced the ICM, and she runs like new. Also did plugs and wires keep up the good work, and again you guys rock!!!!! Thanks.
The stealership I like it!😆
That's what they have becomed after 45 years !!
It's 10 :38 on sunday night and Buick Lasabre. I went to the grocery and igotin the car to come home and the ignition wouldn't turn the key over. I had to leave over night. Do I replace the ignition or is there something I need to do?
After nearly two decades of R and D, In 2005 GM engineers perfected the 3800, capable of running 500,000+ miles if maintained properly. GMs money people put and end to that shit quick. Best damn domestic motor in quite some time.
glad my lesabre's an 05, then.
@@killer13324 ur engine is series 2 right?
@@killer13324 series 3 is the engine hes talking about but i dont think that was in the 05 lesabre. I think that was still series 2
@@confidential8738 yeah mine's series 2. main difference between 2 and 3 is the gen 5 superchargers, fuel system, intake manifolds, and electronics in the series 3.
not just domestic, the same engine powered Australia's Holden Commodores for a long time
I am not a mechanic but what I like most About these videos are that he seems very logical in his approach, & tries to actually fix problems as cheaply as possible rather than throwing parts at it. An honest mechanic is a rare find nowadays..
Yes, the labor charge should usually be higher than the parts list.
Around the same.
But how much testing will the customer authorize?
The first hour is often the law but not the policy, necessarily.
I would love to know how much per hour it cost in the States compared to U.K. ?
I have fresh coffee, the house to myself, and a new SMA video. What a good sunday this is 🤗
Eric, not sure whether or not you're going to see this, but I'll try anyway.
Measuring the DC resistance of the coil may not always tell you the entire story. The only way to really know for sure if you have a bad coil is to measure its inductance, and the only way to do that is to use an LCR meter. The inductance of the coil is determined by the size of air gap in its core, and its number of turns around the core. As coils get damaged, often times turns short to each other, or the core cracks, essentially making the air gap larger, both conditions resulting in decreased inductance. A BK precision model 879B would be suitable for measuring that. At $300 it's not cheap, but it's worth the price of admission because it'll pay for itself in unnecessarily replaced ignition coils. Shooting from the hip, a typical good coil probably measures in the order of hundreds of micro-henries on the primary side, and probably thousands of micro-henries on the secondary side. If you measure a few nano-henries, the coil is most likely no good. Hope this information helps someone if not Eric O.
True, if you can find one, the Claxon 55 is a fantastic old school diagnostic tool
Might be worth getting a chgeap T7 LCR meter from china and seeing if that works for this. They're under $30 and work well for a lot of applications
@@miscbits6399that would be good to know where to look for it, know the spelling is right, and trying one out.
Good video, showing how to properly diagnose using a multichannel scope to trace 3800 ignition woes without resorting to the shotgun replacement method. Nice to know there are some techs out here who still do it right! I worked on the 3800 series 1 equipped GM's which were new at the time, around 1986. That is when I was a young buck tech out of school working for Anderson Buick Oldsmobile Pontiac in Baltimore, fresh out of Lincoln Tech.
As I recall some of these GM port fuel cars will disable the coil pack(s) on the cylinders that detect the active misfire(s). This would kill both cylinders fired by that particular coil The unused waste spark fires simultaneously on the companion cylinder's exhaust stroke. In other words, both coil secondary terminals fire at the same time; the cylinder to be fired on TDC compression. The other cylinder opposing it in the firing order fires as well.
Sometimes to get the PCM to fire the coil on a misfiring cylinder with a code set for that cylinder, clearing the PCM and erase the engine codes is required. This allows the quad driver(s) in the PCM to ground that coil, enabling the PCM to control each of the 3 coils. For the 3 pairs of module terminals provided, one terminal provides 12vdc at all times, either in KOEO or KOER, the same scenario with the 12vdc fuel injectors.
Cam and crank sensors, along with MAP-Baro, MAF, ECM and IAT control timing and injector pulse. Engine cold, this runs the engine off the IAC-engine RPM, base ignition timing and injector pulse / fuel tables. Once at normal operating temperature, the PCM uses adaptive strategy which is then altered based on the sensor inputs.
A Quad Driver is a fancy name for transistors that control the ground to various 12vdc devices controlled by the PCM-ECM, whether a simple off-on state, or pulse width modulated.
Another popular stumbling point is making sure the right number cylinders are on the correct coil towers, since you can swap them among all 3 positions and mix up the numbers on top of the coil, or in the case of new coils, there are no numbers on the replacement coils. Once everything is running and codes are cleared you will also need to go in with the scan tool and set the RPM rev limiter.
Typically on these engines, unless the module was new-ish, at the dealer we would recommend replacing the coil module as well. Running bad coils, multiple misfires, or shorted ignition secondary would stress the module and cause it to fail shortly after a a coil was replaced. Better to err on the side of caution and prevent a possible come back than have the car die shortly after the customer picks it up thinking everything was good.
On the 1st generation 3800's the coils were all one. The coil brick as we called it came as a set of 3 coils in one, with 3 pairs of wired terminals that plug into the coil brick. These were even more notorious in failing for no real reason, and simply running with one plug wire accidentally disconnected could blow the coil and module.
A few notes. First thanks to South Main Auto for providing us with this video. I'll have to say that this is my favorite youtube Auto repair channel. Having said that I would not recommend pulling coils out with the engine running. This could possibly damage the ICM from a thing called kick-back reactance. I would also not recommend removing the plug wires from the coil towers to see if there is a spark across the gap. This allows excessive high-voltage that could cause an internal short to the coil. Next, I would highly recommend cleaning the mounting bracket the ICM mounts on and putting in some heatsink compound between it and the ICM. Heat is an enemy to solid-state devices and removing the heat from the ICM can increase its life. Last, what we have in this situation is one of the coil driver transistors was bad in addition to the logic circuit being bad in the ICM. This caused some very confusing and unusual test results. Thanks again for sharing this.
To save everyone the search, there is no part two. Deep in the comments below the channel mentions that the owner basically brought over coils and ICM from a junk car and that was installed and the car ran fine.
Omg!! This Ivan guy didn't repair this car?
GNX 157👍👍👍
What was the ohms for the new coils?????
oh yea..ok. well ive been searching till now! Thank Bro!
What the name of the channel that Keith has?
I am 74 yrs old been mechanic/millwright etc. Love this guy.
Ok then maybe you understand this, my dad was a mechanic at a dealership in the 70s, he used the bottom drawer of his toolbox as a pee bin....was all rusted out and smelled the cats
@@brianglade848 witf haha
Dont fault ya there hes a righteous dude
@@Trohawkk idk sure got me
10
Q
. To
I really enjoy watching a master at work. Watching this video reminds me of a sign someone placed over my work bench. It stated ‘no matter how good you are there is always someone better’. I always knew I can learn from others no matter who they are. Thanks for the education.
I'm also a retired Master mechanic as well . We call you Sherlock around here. It's like watching a detective searching for clues.. Lol!!! Been there done that it can be very frustrating ,but so rewarding when the case is solved . Love your work ethic. Keep it up !!!
Possibly the reason the coils sparked during cranking and not when the engine was running is because this ignition system is the bypass type. During cranking and at low engine speeds, the PCM does not apply 5 volts to the ignition control timing signal circuit (Pin B on the ignition module). At that time, the ICM controls the saturation time of the coil windings. Once the engine starts and the PCM starts receiving crankshaft sensor pulses, it applies 5 volts to the IC timing signal circuit and the PCM controls the dwell and spark timing. It's almost a primitive communications line between these two modules. I would figure the dwell is longer from the ICM to make sure the coils saturate well to help the engine start faster.The only reason why this engine is probably able to run on two cylinders is because of its unique firing order (1-6-5-4-3-2) and the fact that they have an internal balance shaft to help the engine run smoothly.I had the GM service manual handy, and decided to throw my two cents in. I couldn't find the primary coil resistance spec, but if I remember right, it's 0.3-0.8 ohms.I'm definitely going to subscribe to Keith's channel. I want to see the crazy stuff too!
Now that theory I like very much! Yes, the difference may be explained by whether the ICM is in bypass mode or not. Great thinking!
Joseph Wash isn't the firing order 153624?
HELL YEAH! When it's 2:00AM and I've got nothing to do, seeing this pop-up in my notifications is a blessing.
Literally what just happened to me. Nice car btw, I also have a first gen red MX-5 :D :D
Pop-up masterrace :)
Nothing to do?....stop by the Avoca Smoke Shop, we will open the door, get a tug job in a refurbished barber chair
I love how they figured out what is wrong but didn't just stop there they stayed with it to figure out exactly what is wrong! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you!!
I want to start this comment off by saying thank you for all of these videos. I have learned so much. to the point where I started working on people's cars as a side job.. as of today, I just got hired as a tech working on porche race cars. in a shop that will allow me to grow beyond anything I thought would have been possible. I still have so so much to learn. but your videos in particular helped me get into the position I am in today. I will be forever grateful.
Oh cool man glad to hear that
Thanks for watching!!!
3 years later, I am a crew chief on a prototype race car running in the IMSA series. I still watch all your videos. Again thank you so much for all of the content. I am living a dream.
South Main Auto Repair and Pine Hollow Auto Diagnostics are my "go to" videos to watch! What a treat to have both of you on the same video!
Don't forget Scanner Danner....All 3 of these guys, it's like holding 2 Aces and a wild card
Agreed
This Channel should be called the fixing a Buick Channel! Lol just by chance I got three recommended videos and all involved a Buick lol! Great stuff I appreciate the thoroughness👍
Staten islander here btw😎
Very impressive once again. I finally purchased an Autel ms906 scanner for my shop. Definitely opens up a new world. Thanks again.
Damn, I started watching this because of an O2 sensor and couldn’t stop watching. Great Job
This was great! Thanks guys for showing us the problem and for calling Keith.
You guys are excellent techs.!!! It is sooooo refreshing to see you guys do proper diagnostics on this 3.8L!! This is how techs are supposed to be able to do things!! I have worked in shops and seen soooo many shade tree mechanics throw parts at the car to try to diagnose the problem, then the owner of the car ends up buying several new parts that they didn't need!!! That type of tech is who causes the rest of us REAL TECHS to get bad names!! BUT, like I tell the customer, I promise them UP FRONT that I will correctly diagnose the problem from the start, and I will only have the purchase the exact part the car needs to fix it!! I always tell people, almost anybody can change car parts!! Usually if a person can figure out how to get the part off they can usually get it back on the car!! But it takes a real tech to do a correct diagnostic the first time, and be able to tell the customer what the real issue is with their car, and not replace parts until they find the problem!!! So great job guys!!! It was nice to watch your video and use your video to show people how correct diagnostics are done!! It's hard for me to personally show people correct diagnostics procedures, because I can't take people to work with me!! So thank you guys!! Great job!!!
You missed the part where techs today have to understand these systems even more than the engineers that designed them.. while being paid a small fraction of their salary.. if you want mechanics to be engineers, then the industry is going to have to start paying them as such.. the average mechanic barely makes more money than an 18 year old at Mcdonald's
Cdi module is a common fault. Often times someone's done the parts swap and left out the heatsink paste. Cool video. Thanks for being refreshingly honest and showing us the basics.
It has been a privilege and a joy to watch this video, thank you Ivan and Eric.
I just love it you two took Keith over 2,000 subscribers. I can't wait to see him do some repair videos.
Thanks for the video. Someday people are going to be looking back at these videos and say "Man, those were the best days of youtube!"
You should rename this video to " BADDEST ENGINE EVER PUT ON THE HIGHWAY - GM 3800 6cyl runs on two ! "Even without this amazing story it would still be true.
My dad kept the bottom drawer of his toolbox as his pee bin, it was totally rusted, and smelled like cats
@Robert Slackware maybe, but dumping all of that raw gas and having it find it's way into the oil is not good lubrication. you would have to unplug the injectors on the dead cylinders possibly
@Kenny Coultrap
The 3800 is one of the best engines ever built, right up there with a coyote, and K series. Don't knock it just because the damn thing absolutely refuses to give up even when you disable 3/4 of the engine.
PS: Full disclosure, YES I'm a fanboy. Own an 05 Impala 3.8 9c1. Cops beat the hell out of it, I bought the car with the title at 166k. Odometer read upper 80s. It's now at 175K and besides a crank no start two days ago (Oddly enough the ICM went) it runs like a freaking champ. But then again, considering it's my work vehicle, I maintain the ever living shit out of it. As I run it 200+ miles a day. Now, I will say, thanks to the insane mileage on it (I'm guessing with the discrepancy probably at or above the 300K true mileage) everything besides the engine and transmission has broke on it. But you know what? She keeps kicking for me, I'll keep treating her right. Hell, when the transmission goes, I'll get it rebuilt. Love this car and the only way I'll ever junk it, is if I buy another one with lower mileage.
Running on two that smoothly is amazing. However all that unburned fuel is bad for the catalytic converter. Do it long enough and you can look forward to a bunch of P0420s in the future.
As an owner of one of these cars with the Buick V6's i will say that if your a do it yourselfer its always great to have a spare coil, and module on hand just in case something catastrophic happens on the road. One thing i learned is if you are ever playing around with the radiator be sure to cover up the coil packs because they will possibly misfire if antifreeze is splashed on them.
I agree with this I went to pick and pull after finally tracking down a bad icm on my 2000 Buick lesabre....these cars need maintenance kept up or they will blow out ignition components.....I keep 2 extra icm's a crank shaft A and 2 coils on me
I carry a extra full coil pack/icm in my 04 LeSabre all the time
100% .. I carry a spare ICM and 2 spare coils in my daily driver (02’ lesabre /w 3800) .. I’ve had 3 of these motors as daily drivers in the last 6 years and all have needed new coils and ICMs .. and of course intake manifold gaskets, haha .. the lesabre I’m driving now was giving me the dreaded max line pressure transmission issue .. dropped in a shift kit from TransGO and she’s shifting smooth as ever.
My dad bolted a bucket on the side of his Matco tool box circa 1975 to take a dump in, he said the restrooms at the dealership we're worse than a truck stop in Bavaria
mine starts great (2001), but smokes...something leaking out of the front head maybe? no milky oil but seems like signs of blown head-gasket? but she'll start up and run great , 179,000. should i yank the heads and replace the head-gaskets? Did get some white smoke out of the exhaust a while back. it's just been sitting not used until i figure it out. but just started it the other day, purrs like a kitten but something's not right with the oily looking block.
That's what we call a set up🤔.. You guys really went I depth here and it was awesome as always! Real stars right there folks.
Wasn't that awesome Keith and a great part you played. I checked out your channel before I watched it and you were at 850 subs then after the vid I went back and you were at 1700! That's crazy. Get in touch we need to trade stickers! 🍻
One Auto, Absolutley will Rob , getting a P.O box tomorrow, thought I had more time 😀
OK buddy let me know 👍
I'll get my Canadian secretary to send you some Charlie stickers
Bringing Kieth in and just listening to that experience and the way he just beat you guys down made me laugh my ass off. Great video.
Thanks to both of you.. This diagnostic video helps teach a whole new dimension of automotive repair when you go over the electrical impulses of automotive engines. Seeing the electrical impulses of each cylinder coil pack as it ran or the absence of it in some cases is like watching a video on the electrical impulses of a heart.
Those 3.8 engines are tanks. My fav motor by far!!
Totally agree. I love the 3.8. Good power, decent mpg and stupid reliable.
3.5 dohc is mine hella fun to drive
@@designstudio8013 most engines use a plastic manifold now days since its cheaper to produce. My 3.5 was stable as a rock 99 intrigue had 320k before I sent her to junkyard due to the rear struts blowing out from it being a w body
@@zrafferty why not put new struts on her?
@@ezgezg8618 it was the whole tower where it mounted into ripped off
Just found this site really appreciate your time and effort in helping out with the more difficult problem
Ivan T. always smiling, happy guy I wonder why...
Cool troubleshooting, thank you. Got a similar problem, scope coming back out...
The load pro (used as a wheel chock) is actually a pretty good tool. We use it a good bit to put a "load" on a circuit to check wiring. But with all the other cool tools available I can see why that one is lonely.
Yeah I was a little taken back by that. Those are a fantastic tool, and way more convenient than doing a traditional lightbulb test. I suppose if you have a Power Probe IV or better it'll do the same thing, but no reason to trash the Loadpro.
I love working with someone who knows as much if not more than me. The going back and forth between you two was amazing to watch. Awesome video.
I have a caddy cts with a 3.6L. Have 98,000 miles on a performance timing chain I installed some years ago, no more problem. 👍
First part of the video is a good example of why mechanics (or anyone who owns or runs a business) should always treat every customer right. Customers talk to other people. If a customer had a good experience and felt like they were treated fairly, they will tell their friends, family, and so forth. More customers, more profits, and loyalty. I've been screwed over by so many mechanics. Screw me over once, I'm done with you and I will tell others if need be. I've taken some time to educate myself on diagnosing vehicle issues. I can't diagnose everything, but I can get a pretty good idea of what's wrong before I take it to someone. Right now I'm between mechanics because the last one never seemed to want to work on the vehicle and I'm a bit "gun shy". There's another mechanic I'll probably try because I've heard others talk good about him and he seems like a nice guy.
I almost expected the ending to be "Remember viewers- If we can't do it, Keith can....thanks for watching"
nick harding tue story right there
nick harding it happens sometimes, therefore we say; knowledge has no boundaries.
Sometimes u repair so many things u think it's one but it's really another and u lose urself just one them days Eric still my fav mechanic saved me lots
That was good!
This might be one of my favorite videos. Love the collaboration of all three of you. That was fun to watch. You would have eventually got there I'm sure.
👍 👍 👍💥
I would sell the customer the Icm, 3 coils, wires, plugs, and change the oil to protect the repair. you could have a coil secondary voltage leaking into the primary causing icm control and current limiting issues. Worn out plugs and wires could be stressing out the coils which over time started the issue. just my two cents.
absolutely
Exactly. The ICM and coils are most expensive, you're protecting that investment with new wires and plugs, which are least expensive.
And if plug gap to narrow you will go in auto pilot mode, until exhaust sensor gets hot, is it winter time 😱😱😱😱
You guys need to do more videos together! Wealth of knowledge! Entertaining!
Watching this for the 2nd or third time.
I went through a similar scenario with my 99 Series 2, for an engine to run that good on two cylinders, wow.
I’m always impressed with Mr. O and his troubleshooting abilities. Always careful and pragmatic makes use of his excellent diagnostic tools and teaches us in the ways of South Main Auto. Terrific video! I was following along until you started pulling coils and it was all vudu from there. 😉
Subscribed to Keith and Ivan! What a happy bunch you are. Great to see people enjoying their work :)
I understand about 20 percent of what you’re saying and I still find it interesting as hell.
At least i understand what youre saying.
Same here. I have the same problem at the repair shop, but at least if’s FREE to listen on the channel here.
I'm progressing from complete moron status to a moron with a clue but I'm always entertained with SMA
@@mikefranklin3528 lol
Alright guy had a 36 that went 200,000 Mi without needing anything it just matters if you change your oil and you hot rod around in them they're not going to hold up but my aunt went through three Impalas with the same engine because she went with GM's five thousand mile oil changes and they all went and burnt oil
🛑Eric,🛑
Here it is, 3:35am and I've watched this video two times already tonight.
This is good stuff (priceless really)!!!!
This is the kind of content that is so educational.
But the real reason that I adopted you as my number one and favorite channel is;
You know when it's time to rely 0n an old fashioned "🐆-SCAN"!
My wife said that that was proof you are a great Auto tech.
I must admit I wish I had your savvy.
I've got over $70,000 tied up and tools and scan tools, but my uncle keeps reminding me by saying;
"Sonny boy, you got to be smarter than the tools you use"
I believe there's some truth to that Eric.
YOU ARE A TRUE CREDIT TO THE AUTOMOTIVE INDUSTRY.
Ivan seems like a high integrity guy also.
GOD bless
🛑📖🛐🛫🛬🛑
🐆🐆🐆🐆🐆🐆
OMG ive spent considerable time trying to figure out why some GM cars start so fast? Ive even posted on forums asking this question without a well explained answer. And here is the answer around 14 minutes in! I know it isnt much but youve inadvertantly made my week.
My Grand Prix I used to have only had to hit TDC on one, two cylinders max before it would fire right up. Interesting now to understand why!
I love the 3.8. Got one in my 03 Regal. 120,000 miles and still running strong
a 3.8 or 3800, whatever you want to call it is a great engine ! I had one in a 88 Oldsmobile delta 88 and one in a 97 Buick Lesabre !
167k on mine runs great
it will go an go an go .. have one in my 95 transport 200.000 miles one in my 02 grandprix ,,my boys 91 regal had 350,000 on it till he sold it still ran great rust was getting it
I love how you guys joke about that stuff because it's something we see every day and can relate to. Customer comes in with a print out from AutoZone/Advance and says they need an O2 sensor. I do my damnedest to tell them that it doesn't mean they need an O2 sensor and it's probably something else and they should pay for a diagnostic. Some do but there is always the knuckle head that will refuse and demand that you change the oxygen sensor because they are too smart to be tricked into paying for a proper diagnosis. Depending on their attitude they might get a free check to educate them and gain a customer or they might get a waiver saying that they want it changed and we didn't recommend it. Either way we usually gain a customer because they come back with their head down wanting to pay for a diagnostic. These parts stores with free code scans and uneducated shops are bad for our industry and make it even harder for us shops out there that do things the right way.
IMO the part stores that have free code scans are more and more a necessity for anyone trying to repair their own vehicle.
Some of those people who try to fix their own cars become actual mechanics. Some of those eventually specialize in vehicle diagnostics.
So before you say those free code scans are bad for the industry, think about where the new techs are coming from.
Uneducated shops ARE bad for the industry. There needs to be more and more affordable education on the complex systems modern vehicles have inside them.
Those unwilling to learn how the new stuff works will never prosper.
My dad's been in the auto repair business for about 40 years now, and he still goes to seminars and classes to stay current on new technology. He doesn't have a scope or a very modern scan tool, but he still manages to replace the right part (and only the right part) 99% of the time. No "parts cannon" here.
Meanwhile I'm here fixing lawnmowers and other outdoor power equipment. The only "scan tools" I have are my eyes, ears, and nose. I make more mistakes than my Dad does, but I still fix 100% of the things that get brought in to my bay. Lots of carburetor rebuilding in my line of work.
@@44R0Ndin true that!
Your shop maybe legit but not all shops are. There are shops not all but some out there that get over on customers any chance they get. Claiming they can get the part for you at a discounted price but the customer doesn't reap the benefit of the cheap part because the shop feels justified in raising the labor cost because the part was cheap. Its worse when a shop tells you that any part bought outside the shop voids your warranty on any repair they do which is total bs.i rarely have these issues because I know my shit and bring my car to reputable shops for diagnosis or a job I simply don't have time or the tools for.
I used to be that guy. But when I really don't Kno what's wrong, I'll always bow my head and ask for help
The problem is that the shops charge for diagnostics $120 and they don't even tell you what the problem is because they couldn't find it. I once was had a problem with my car, and I replace few parts that could be the culprit, but it didn't fix the problem. Eventually after few months of looking for the cause, I said Ok I will spend $120 for diagnostics. Guess what, they were looking, and they didn't find anything, but because of that they charged me "only" $60. Well, that put me in the sqaure one again. I eventually figured it out myself after another year of looking. But what I am trying to say is that they will not always tell you what the problem is. If I had to pay $120 every time for diagnostics, I would need to buy a bicycle instead, because my car is breaking and needs new parts every few months.
Very informative and detailed. I have an 02 Lesabre that is running rough all of a sudden. I am going to the boneyard and loading up on coils and ignition control modules for $60 bucks. I am going to start plugging and playing one after the other until it runs fine and then I am going for beer and wings. Rachet set, screwdriver and pliers is all I will use. I call it random precision. I am not a mechanic.
Tail between my legs say it ain't so. He just elaborated on what you already had instead of the dynamic duo we have the Three Musketeers. Good job. JB🤩
You guys make an AMAZING team, you should have a line of customers with your knowledge and troubleshooting skills
Double Bonus...Video on Sunday & Ivan & You diagnosing together! Well you picked a good one and I can see how it was easy for the other shop to misdiagnose by not investigating as far as you guys did but they may have been airing on the side of caution with the coils. So what was the conclusion or is there a video. Was busy today doing a radiator and CV shaft on my Mother-in-laws Aveo. Started yesterday as a simple oil & filter, then progressed from there. Keith is a great person and always has time to help. I can't wait to see him in action on his videos. Thanks again for all the videos from SMA & PHD which are always enjoyable to watch!
Great video! I am no where near the technician you are but i have lots of experience with 3800s and 3.8s. I find out my customers intention with the vehicle before working on it. If they plan to keep it i would have replaced the plugs and wires 3 coils and the ignition module with delco components. Just keeps from having comebacks and smother running car with better fuel mileage. I also check the intake for leaking and smell for bad fuel pressure regulator for a bad diaphragm. That seems to fix the biggest problems with the engine. I am learning a lot from all the videos and appreciate the time you spend. God Bless.
Nice work guys. Eric, you get the the most broken cars that still run. I don't how many times I've said to myself "how is this thing still running?” while watching your channel.
Great video guys. Every time I have gotten to the point where I thought I had seen it all, a troubleshooting problem would come along that had an "impossible" fault. An old electronic tech that I once worked with on the DEW line, once told me " When you see the impossible, you are overlooking something". He was right. I was just delighted by your excellent troubleshooting , & running the problem down. Damned well done! My hat is off to you both. I watch Ivan's channel as well, & you guys are first class. Well Done.
Awesome video, I definitely haven't seen a failure like this before! I'm with everyone on Keith making vids soon, that man is a wealth of knowledge.
80s present GMs are known to this problem. The older OBD1 systems will make you crazy
Check all of the secondary resistances. You can draw more current if the secondaries are somewhat shorted not completely shorted but partially shorted. You can draw more current through the primary because the secondary is partially shorted.
Yeah it sounds like the "coil pack" is just a fancy name for a transformer. A high load on the secondary will cause a high load on the primary. As a result, the current limiting function could even be designed for the secondary side in the form of an integrated resistor. That could even be why the manual provides the resistances for the secondary side. The primary side is probably just wire.
I just found this video. Ivan is from my area. I didn't know you guys were friends. I think you're two of the best guys on UA-cam.
Thanks for all the videos!
These old Buicks were great. I drove a 1992 for about 15 years and I loved it. Finally traded it in because both the AC and the struts went out. The price of fixing the AC alone exceeded the value of the car, so I figured it was time.
was it R-12?
Use a Claxon 55 circa 1975, will purge the R-12 and seal at the same time
The 3800. Guys you're making me cry with this video. I miss my Grand Prix. What other engine can run on two cylinders. Bye the way my 1998 GP had ABSOLUTELY ZERO RUST. Lived it's entire life in Phoenix. I just painted the car, put a new radiator in it and it was running like a top at 235,000 when I stupidly wrecked it. BUMMER.
It ran pretty smoothly on two cylinders too. Amazing.
I had a Suzuki sidekick that due to my idiocracy... wrong firing order... ran on 2 cylinders
Pull a Fart motors, poot speaking.
Yeah theres over twenty years on those parts.
The wires and plugs resistance can be higher and the failing module and over-taxed coils have outlived themselves.
Your testing teaches alot, thanks very much.
But at this age, the baloney in the spark sandwich is not enough, the bread needs to be replaced, the mustard surfaces cleaned, and the hors d' vors plugs and high tension leads.
Somebody elses newer GM parts will work great.
It can make it the rest of the way.
Man its great having you both and you even phoned a friend and gave us another source in Keith.
Im in the shop with true greatness in diagnostics, (you must get paid for working.)
I am not worthy.
We are not worthy !
Seriously, though, i learned alot Eric O, and IVAN. Thanks.
South Main great video as always. My dad owned a 2003 Buick lesabre that he bought in 2004 with 20k and used it as a commuter car from Suffolk County to queens every day. When I junked the car for him in 2014 he had 483,000 miles on the car and on the original motor and tranny. The 3.8 motors are great if you do the common problems. Intake manifold gaskets and keeping on fluids.
You two have a great rapport working together. And an awful lot of diagnostic brainpower too!
"Test not Guess"
Done, subscribed to New Level Auto
4 years later, and New Level has 32k subs.
woke up to nice Sunday morning and fresh hot black coffee and now SMA pops up on my notification! this is pure genius of Dr Eric O and Ivan T with Keith D via phone. this is way over the top video I've ever watched. if there was multiple thumbs up. i definitely would!!! you got that from me. can't wait to see Part 2 of this classic trio working and fixing this misfire issue! kudos to ya guys!
You never stop learning. I've done what I do for almost 40 years and still learn something every day. ;)
Yeah I truly miss the 3.8 and 5.7
4.3l
@@wrasya120 which one tbi dpi or the spider injection mpfi or mfi the 4.3,,L had them all
The 4.3 in my dad's truck smokes all mustangs they're badass
In the 70s, my dad used the Claxon 55 as his go to diagnostic tool, was right next to the Sun dwell meter and pee bucket
Your videos have been very helpful. My 2000 LeSabre lost power and was running on 4 cylinders but I was able to determine a faulty ICM by swapping coils. My local Autozone wanted $185 for just the ICM but I found one on Amazon with 3 new coils for $120. After an easy install the car runs like new. Thank you! :)
You guys are GREAT! You video really helped with a misfire I have on a 3800 II LaSabre engine. Saved me a lot of aggravation and money. Thank you so much!!!
No freaking way Jose. The dynamic duo. Good job guys. Have a good weekend. JB🐴🐴🐴
You're a class act, my friend. Working overtime to get him back on the road. Happy new year! Best wishes to you and yours!
Well thats interesting!! Nice! I'm certainly no GM fan but those 3.8s sure were some great engines.....tough as nails and easy to work on.
The 3x00s were solid engines after you changed the lower intake with the Felpro gasket kit.
The 256 Essex is the exact opposite.
I’ve got a 1998 Pontiac Firebird with the 3800 3.8 V-6 series II engine, there good engines but a pain in the ass to swap out the plugs.
@@aaron5785 do you mean just the 3 in the back?
@@aaron5785 that goes for any engine in a 4th gen fbody. i have a 96 LT1 camaro. back plugs are a joke to get to
That system is just that versatile. I've seen them run on 2 before. I've also seen some really goofy signals cam vs crank when the chain stretches, but nothing that clear cut and perfect as the 1 Ivan showed. Pretty neat case study!
Damn, all the greats either present or accounted for in one video. Eric, Ivan, Paul, and Keith! Maybe one day we can add, Dwayne, Joe, Tom, and Thomas. The ultimate meetup plan. It's a good time to be a automotive diagnostics UA-cam junkie! Thanks so much all!!
Oh my, then the vortex will open and they will get sucked out of our timeline never to be heard from again...
What about Scotty? I know a lot of people consider him a hack but not everyone has the tools and knowledge for such in-depth troubleshooting. Sure he might throw a part or two at it that is not actually bad but in my experience when a car gets to a certain point everything is on its way out even if its not actually bad at the time.
Well, you guys have done it!! He has two thousand subs, and is posting videos!! Great job getting Keith on here!! And in one day, no less!!
Even the best get stumped sometimes Eric and Ivan.Always good to know someone like Kieth when you get into troubled waters
Get Keith to do movies from weird electrical problems what he's dealing every day!Love your videos guys!Always cool to wath Eric and Ivan shooting a video together
This video is exceptionally useful!! Thanks for staying late on a Friday, and being exceedingly detailed with the diagnostics. I learned a lot! :-)
Subscriber 1891 for keith.
Primary Winding Voltage of say 14V. You measured .35 Ohm on each. So that translates to max of about 40A without any form of limiting control. However, The control integrated circuit includes a sense resistor which receives the load current from the high current load driver integrated circuit, converts this current to a sense voltage, compares the sense voltage to a reference voltage generated within the control integrated circuit, and forces the low voltage drive signal to drop to a level which will limit the load current to a predetermined current value.
Let us know what you discover about the primary winding resistance of a new coil and with a known max amperage you can then know what the maximum input voltage to the coil should be if the current limiting circuit was working. For example, if the max current is supposed to be 8A and lets assume that your coils are good at .35 Ohms that would mean that the max input voltage to the coil is 2.8V
Great comment. You can think about it as voltage drop across the coil primary winding. At the start of the current flow, the driver will provide a full ground to increase the current flow rapidly (14V drop). Once the current reaches the desired 8A, then the ICM driver will only allow a 2.8V drop across the winding and the current will plateau.
All valid points. I also believe that the coils are fine in this case since the resistance of the primaries was identical across the board. 0.35 Ohms seems to be a good spec.
I got a kick out it when you scoffed at the AAA assessment at first. Looking back on my 63 years I realize that the only time I got in trouble was when I thought I knew it all. That being said you are about the best all around automotive guy so I can overlook you being human.
Awesome collaboration. Eric and Ivan together again. You guys have so much fun together it is easy to forget that you are actually working. Subbed to keith's channel.
I saw Keith's video first and now it all makes sense. Cool case study and I was with you until the master burst your bubble
yeahhh... he does that time to time
As good as this video was, bringing in Keith was over the top! Outstanding case study!
wyattoneable yeah he is always there to fill us in with extra details and experience!
Like you, he's called me a few times always offering to help. You all are the best.
All that was missing here- was Scotty Kilmer popping up out of the trunk.
Scotty.....cocaine's a wicked drug
Good, Clean, Family Entertainment....Educational, Intellectual, Troubleshooting and Problem solving, Just what I needed to see to help me figure out a similar problem. Looking forward to more like this. A big THANK YOU.
I use to work with a guy named Clyde at HP, another electronics engineer & he was my Keith! It's crazy how good he was. We were great friends only because I listened & learned... oh & I was more mechanical minded but only slightly. He would dissect the parts the techs sent pca's into rework for & tell them if they were bad or not.... in other words your hit rate. To get my foot in the door back in 90, I had to come in as a tech but with an engineering degree. Clyde is the one who picked up on me not being a tech & pointed out my hit rate back in the day. Everyone had their assigned electronics product line. Starting on sunrise I was told to start on either twist.. no one told me that was all I was to do. A tester kept asking me to help him figure out other products & he took away all my excuses... so I did. Clyde & I were headed back to the area after lunch one evening I came in about 7pm & he asked if I ever checked my boxes? I was clueless! Long rolling cart with 3 shelves... first=Day shift, middle=Swing & bottom=Sunrise.... each person had one 20in x6x6 esd box. Hmmmm couldn't find my name, Clyde laughed & pointed to the very top... omw I had the whole row & filled because I never checked them. I swallowed hard & asked what my hit rate was overall..... Clyde mentioned if it drops below 77% you get asked why.... well we didn't have a superior on sunrise over the techs... I kinda took on the roll. Fearing the worst... Clyde starts laughing & everyone was now watching us! Finally tells me 98% hit rate across the board, I was relieved but he didn't stop there... knowing we were all ranked against our peers... Clyde point blank asked me my schooling & them announced I was an engineer b4 coming to HP! I was instantly hated by all the slingshift techs for blowing the curve... I had no clue till C told me in his next breath. By the next day I was called in on day shift to explain. Never thought I could get in trouble for being better than they expected. In my personal file it showed my previous employer ect so I was covered but they switched my ranking & soon pay. Then I applied for a different position & made it official. Crazy how things work out, I felt smart with the techs but stupid mixed in with the engineers like Clyde & the Keith's of the world. Made me push even harder to play catchup... nothing like feeling as if you missed not reading a full chapter in school. Inspires a person to work even harder!
Very interesting about the triple band sync signal and how the 3.8 starts up so quickly. I never knew different cars worked so differently in that regard but I did notice an old Saab 1.8t that would start up always on the very first crank. Normally it seems like cars turn over twice then start, as confirmed by you saying that most use a 720 degree start.
3.8 gm was a very good engine but was replaced by 3.6 engine approx 50 Lb lighter all aluminum engine . I have a serier lll 3.8 in my 2004 grand prix gt at 408,000 still running great with oil changes at 5500 using 5 -40 synthetic oil and quality filter
You should do a video on the 3.6 Ecotec timing chains. We have them here in Aus too! Terrible engine. Love the video 🇦🇺
Yes 3.6 great replacement to the awsome 3.8.The 3.6 and 2.8 are a great improvement at 50 lb lighter lololol
The 3.6 and the smaller 2.8 added bonus is they like to use oil as well as being approx 50 lb lighter .l have 2006 cts with the smaller 2.8 it uses oil a co worker has a 2007cts 3.6 his love oil too
Back in da day , I was the third shop to try and repair one of these LeSabres . Complaint was vehicle will not go faster than 5mph . Previous shops replace the Fuel Pump and Fuel Filter , Catalytic Converter and the Fuel Pump again . Quick check of the Brake system , they were working as designed , checked the Trans Fluid , it was on full . Went for a test drive , 5 mph max with great fuel pressure and stayed in first gear . It felt like a plugged Cat Converter . Pulled #1 Oxy Sensor , checked back pressure , it was fine . Drove it without installing the Oxy sensor, still the same . Installed the Oxy sensor , tried starting the engine and No Bueno , no Start ! Ran diagnostic chart , replaced the Crank Sensor and Bingo Bingo .....everything A OK . It was the Crank Sensor .
As of right now, Keith has 10, 504 subs. Quite an outstanding network you guys are building. Great diag job too.
11:05 The most important part of using a test light... Test the test light! And yes, I did waste a bunch of time one day learning that one the hard way.
Highly Polished Turd I took my car to advance Auto the computer said I had a random cylinder miss fire and miss fire on cylinder 2 so I changed the coil it stopped skipping temporary like it did before I changed so I went back a couple days later still miss fire on cylinder 2 so I checked the plug on cylinder 2 it was missing half the ceramic insulation on the inside of the plug. What I learned in small engine work I should have checked the plug first. But I just bought the car and the person before me replace the plugs and wires. I pulled one of the plugs before I knew the miss fire was on cylinder 2 and they looked brand new as well as the wires
@@spankthemonkey3437 Been in the business since 1977. Wire gets changed with plug/boot is wise move. A carbon track which can be difficult to see will be on both pieces so you can transfer from bad plug via wire (or vise versa) to the new plug. Always advise and document why you are advising something for CYA in the event they decline. I understand not everyone has boatloads of cash to replace parts seemingly unnecessarily but don't make the judgement for them (unless you DO feel it must be done, of course)
Leo Schneggenburger turned out to be a blown head gasket causing the problem. my temp guage shot up all the way not even 5 minutes after cranking one time even felt the engine was still cool or like warm. So I opened the radiator and water just gushed out and wasn't even hot just Luke warm and the radiator smelled like gas fumes and so did the overflow tank. I stuck my finger down inside the radiator and pulled out black goo and open the oil cap it had a slight milky substance on it. The used car place sold me a broke car with head gasket stop leak in it nothing I can do about it now. Word to the wise everyone reading this stick your finger down inside or radiator to see if black goo is in there and check your overflow tank for it to.
You can see that those bolts on the coils were never broken loose. They just did the first test and said "Yup needs a coil!"
Gentlemen, unless I missed it, you didn't mention that the paring of the cylinders are picked so the coils share two cylinders that are 360 degrees apart. The two headed coils put a spark out of both hv ports at the same time. In this setup, both cylinders receive a spark at the top of the compression and the exhaust stroke. That is why there is no need to determine which is in the compression stroke. The 3x signal only triggers which coil to spark and one of the cylinders fires because it's in compression with fuel. The other cylinders just sparks at the end of the exhaust stroke. One could prove this by swapping the pairs on any coil. The engine would run the same.....
Not sure.....
Have a 2000 Buick Lesabre with some of the characteristics mentioned. The coils and icm have quite of bit of caked oil residue on them. Not terrible but not supposed to be there. Just now investigating it. Watched your entire video even though it was leaps and bounds over my abilities and on hand equipment. Still doing the out in the cold and open auto mechanics from time to time. Great video!
That actually reminds me of an experience I had once - it ended up being that the grounding of the ECM was bad.
Did it ground through the wiring harness or the engine surface. Guessing the harness but idk
You guys are exactly what i have been looking for in Buick 3800 V6 diagnostic video. Your level of demonstrational video's show me way way way more than anyone else. I have yet to SEE the level of intelligence & expertise that which you guys have .
Top notch boys .
Thanks
Well I realize that this video is 6 years old, but the amount of information is still relevant to me.
I have owned 3 - 04 Pontiac Grand Prix's.
2 are the GTP COMP G 's, and the other is a rusty parts car .
This cars are cheap to buy but as we all know everything lasts for a certain period of time as new technologies arise .
I just can't bring myself to the point of thinking of spending $40 ,000~ 60,000 K on any car or even a new $ 100,000.00 fullsize truck .
You did an excellent job showing the weirdest examples of just how quirky electronics can be.
If you ever do another video on the 3800 series lll ,hopefully it will be from a 2004 ~ 2008 Pontiac Grand Prix.
So much to learn and so little time for us baby boomers who only want dependable, affordable transportation.
Thanks so much for the lecture by the professors.
This is how GM accidentally developed cylinder deactivation.
Those poor LH6 owners
They started that with Cadillac back in the 80s, terrible system, worked poorly
@@kennethlaw5216 Ah yes, the 4-6-8 motor. It was an innovative and sound design, and GM spent millions developing it, but then cheaped out on the manufacturing (as GM is wont to do.) The friction bands that acted sort of like a clutch, "shifted" between stage I, II, and III (4 cylinder, 6 cylinders and 8 cylinders) and were tested with Tungsten steel which took a lot of stress and performed well. For some reason ($$$) that Tungsten steel was swapped to a cork material on the production models which wore out quickly, causing the motor to get stuck in gear, in one of the stages. If it got stuck mid-shift, (switching between, say, 4 active cylinders to 6 active cylinders) it caused catastrophic engine failure.
One fix was to get the engine 'stuck' in 8 cylinder mode and forget about it. The most common remedy however was to just swap it out for a 350 or 305 motor like it should have had to begin with.
BlindBat
That's funny! LOLOLOL
Incorrect!! Cylinder deactivation was developed back in the 1800's with the invention of the hit & miss engine.