The title is right about this being the worst advice ever given, or at least among the worst advice. But I'm not referring to what Dan himself said was the bad advice he'd given early on in his column. I'm referring to the completely compassion-less, superior bullshit he said at the end. Lumping all people who haven't come out over age 30 as chicken shits and cowards? What kind of moronic crap is that? I'm not even gay, and this wouldn't even affect me, except in the fact that I am HUMAN. What affects one human affects us all. People are people, and our lives are not carbon copies. The truth is complex. There is no one right answer that must be ruthlessly applied and pressed onto to all human beings. That kind of thinking is extremely dangerous. It has been at the root of so much suffering and war and death over human history. What incredible arrogance.
+strattubes I think it was aimed specifically at those who demonize others as a justification to not come out. If u don't want to come out then don't, but don't give the impression that ur parents or loved ones are holding u back. If its ur own choice then own it.
I've been watching a lot of Dan Savage lately. I agree with a lot of what he has to say. That said, I also think there needs to be an ethnic and cultural lenses placed on "when to come out" in addition to when it is safe from a physical standpoint. I believe people will come out when they realize that staying in the closet will cause more harm than being out of the closest. That does not mean that life will be better immediately, but the hope is for an authentic (and better) journey to come. It may take some longer before they reach that. I don't think a suggestion for an age "cut-off" such as 30 is appropriate for everyone. This is particularly true for those of certain ethnic minorities where there are additional driving factors that may be contributing to their self discovery journey. I appreciate his dialogue and push for more awareness, but compassion is required as people figure out who they are. This is coming from a man who came out in his late 20's.
Its worth repeating: 40% of homeless teenagers were thrown out of the house. Unless we are willing as a community to take financial responsibility for these teenagers, we can't just tell them to come out.
That too, it would work for some. However with religious homophobes, lack of education can be a badge of honor. They are proud of their lack of education in anything but the bible & no amount of conventional education is enough. Some take it so far as to be explicitly dismissive of their relationship with their kids vs their perceived relationship with God.
Jacob Shuch Personally, I would throw the homophobic parents into the street and have their community shun them to make them truly understand what the hell they've done.
Guy sounds right and pragmatic. Being a teenager means two things. First: You're incapacitated by the law and financially dependent on your parents. Therefore you don't really have the right and enough freedom to fully express yourself. Second: You're being forced to spend more than 6 hours, 5 days per week, amongst the most aggressive, vicious and arrogant part of the society commonly known as teenagers. You certainly do not want to appear even slightly different when around those 'people'. So the wisest solution would be to wait a little longer, to avoid bigger and unavoidable harm on your body and psyche. It's usually refered as "damage control".
The honesty that he's referring to is self-honesty, and being able to look honestly at your situation and make a judgement. If you seriously think that you're in a better position to not come out then maybe you shouldn't, but don't pretend that your situation is worse than it is as an excuse to avoid unpleasant situations.
....And what about the advice you gave to that trans*woman's wife back in 2010? The one where you called her selfish for wanting(/needing) to transition? The phrases "stupid tr**ny" and "selfish tr**ny" were used. I think that may have been some of the worst advice you've ever given. To the extent that you offended every trans* person I know who read it, myself included. That sort of bigotry is 1) unacceptable, 2) very harmful to the trans* community, and 3) not something that should be being spewed by a member of the LGBT community. Especially not you.
I didn't come out to my family until I fell in love with another guy. He was going to be a part of my life as much as my parents were from that point on. He was willing to accept my parents and I gave them the option of accepting us together. My mom was no problem, my dad tolerated us. But it was an honest relationship from that point on and we all get along better now because of it. It was the right decision. For me. My Dad actually get along with my partner very well after 15 years.
It is impossible for the ends to be irrelevant yet significant enough to the provider as to make them feel lied to. If the ends are irrelevant then there's no reason for the provider to care. If the provider doesn't care how the funds are spent (because it's irrelevant) then there's no instance of lying. It becomes simple omission, no different than not telling someone anything they don't care about. If the ends are irrelevant but the provider still cares then he/she is simply irrational.
There's a difference between being self-honest and being honest with others. What he's saying is that you need to be honest with yourself, and then make a decision as to how to deal with your situation. Of course we wish we could all be honest all the time, but sometimes being dishonest is the lesser of 2 evils. You need to think maturely about the situation, it's naive to think that honesty will always end well.
I don't see any wisdom or insight in mandating an age cut-off for coming out beyond which a person is a "coward" -- some dicey conditions for a gay person to come out persist in a family no matter how old he or she may become. If one's sexual preference itself is no one else's business, then whether one ever discloses it or not is surely not Dan Savage's business. Case by case, and every case different. A professional expert, as distinct from an edgy celebrity advice columnist, knows that.
I find Dan Savage to be extremely intelligent and entertaining. If you don't agree with his advice or his opinions, move on. I've read many of his columns and listened to many videos of him that have been posted on UA-cam and I strongly doubt that he believes that everyone thinks like him or should think like him. If you don't find him entertaining or helpful, look elsewhere. Why take the time to criticize when you could use that time to find whatever it is you're looking for?
Dan Savage is usually on point, but whenever one says something like, "I have no sympathy for those people," it reflects more poorly on her/him than it does on the group to whom she/he is referring. Even when we don't agree with others' decisions, why can't we still garner and cultivate empathy for one another??
I don't think he's specifically talking about just coming out to everyone, He's talking about coming out to your family. Which may not be important at first, when you're young, but it becomes much more important later when you're an adult and you only get to see your family for holidays and you're expected to bring home a significant other. I agree with you, people are more than who they're attracted to, but at that point in their lives, it's not about being sure or not. They know they're gay.
And all because of how great, merciful, kind, and loving religion is must we discriminant against and beat or human brothers and sisters, because nothing say love more than slavery, rape, murder, and stoning babies to death. Yay, Jesus!!
"You better fucking be yourself. If your woman or man doesn't like it, don't force them too. Sometimes quitting is the opposite of giving up. Relationships are pretty much the only time this is true." The advice I never got. I had to learn it. Thanks Earth. You're awesome.
I find the thought of death quite comforting. To know there's an end to things, like a film or book. If anything's scary at all, it is life, for -that- is the great uncertainty. Death is a known given, life could turn out to be anything: good, bad, in some cases perhaps even worse than death. The prospect of death creates a sense of order in the chaos that is life.
He was a bit harsh on that comment, but not wrong at all. At that age you should have your own life, your own relationships outside of your family. At that age you shouldn't be so dependent on the financial and emotional support of your family. Either you be completely honest with at least your immediate family (siblings and parents), or live your life as a lie with them. Or don't even come out at all. Live your life as it is in front of them, and have them ask you the questions.
I've known I was attracted to guys since I was in 1st grade. Nothing particularly tragic happened to me. I have both a father and a mother and they were both very loving and present in my life. Please, tell me what events in my life caused me to choose to be ridiculed, ostracised, and potentially physically harmed the rest of my life?
I like you Dan but Im almost 26 and I still havent come out to my family but my friends and coworkers know. I'm in my 3rd year relationship with this guy (he is 100% out) Believe me when I say that my family is homophobe. Sometimes I want to come out but my partner & friends beg me not to do it because they know my family. My point is, you can be 30 years old and still be closeted to your family. It's not about being a "chicken"
1. They aren't liars if they just choose not to tell people and let people assume that they're straight. I've never asked any of my friends if they were gay, but if they were I wouldn't feel that they'd lied to me. 2. Yes, some of them are liars. But I'd say generally it's okay to lie about your own feelings when telling the truth could get you beaten, killed, socially alienated, unable to work etc. Lying isn't a good thing, but it is sometimes the lesser of 2 evils.
*** would keep you on a leash but you manage to take the lie and work with it enough to make him not doubt you so much anymore. He gives you a gun and tells you where you should search (as unlikley as this scenario would be). He tells one of his men to follow you and make sure that you cant save that person no matter what. You search the area and end up picking somehting up in the corner of you peripherals. Its that dear person. You keep moving and report you've found nothing. Continued***
I'm glad this guy denounced the idea of telling every gay teen to come out. I debated this with somebody some time ago. You have to think about your situation as this guy said.
And that's great! As long as you are think about it and make the conscious decision that you would prefer to tell the truth. For many people it isn't as easy as that, because of where they live or their family situation or whatever. Ideally we would all be honest all the time, but unfortunately that isn't always the safest choice. All I'm saying is that you need to be honest about your own situation and be smart about the best time to tell people.
Dan Savage you are awesome, I read your column it is my favorite no fiction these days, you are really funny and insightful. Thank you for introducing Esther Perel, she is fascinating!
A family like that is no family at all. No one is obligated to keep ties with abusive people just because they're related. Leave them and find people who care to spend your time with. Start your own family even.
at least you tried to help. good intentions really do go a long way. we don't realize it because many don't appreciate the intent. sorry about all of that. keep trying, don't stop.
How would making up a fictional story soften one's fear of death? How would there be comfort in a conscious lie? People would know that that their faith would be based on nothing and that their outcome would be unknown.
Yes. I hope he was uncomfortable w/how he worded his last statement(s). I say TRUST YOURSELF, & if that's too difficult somehow, don't punish yourself. Take care.
I remember being furious at Mr. Savage early on in his column writing when he addressed hetero relationships. So glad he re-focused and ended up where he is now. What a wonderful example to young people - gay and straight. :D
I think this is a shortsighted point of view. Parents make a decision to create a child. There is a social contract when you create children that you will nurture them until they are capable of taking care of themselves wholly. However, the conditions that the parent places their child in tends to set the age that the child is capable of attaining independence. There is a societal obligation in the US until 18, however some parents are obligated by their own word until around 22.
Okay, I get what you're saying. I agree that you should be able to be completely honest and have no one attack you for it, but unfortunately, some people in this world will attack people who are different from them. It is their bad, it's not your fault, but it's what happens. The world isn't fair. And we are, over time, enacting social change, but for some people it literally is a choice between lying to others or being physically beaten or killed.
Why is it any different to a straight person 'using' their parents for education? If parents decide to break off contact with their son/daughter if they come out straight after university, then that is their fault, not the fault of the person coming out. I'm not telling my dad till afterwards, that doesn't mean I'm using him any more than my straight brother is. Saying I'm 'using' him would be assuming I'm less deserving of my education for being out.
This man is a hero to gay people. Many gay friends of mine have told me about his sense of humor making a difference. No one could ask for a better movement. Humor to understand what we should know about ourselves as people. I dig this dude. Gays are important to America as a sign of our freedom. I think he's a good contributor to our homosexual friends in the United States. He's a good man.
*** You can choose one of three options: 1: Tell the complete truth and have him kill you (because he probably would do that anyway) 2: Tell a complete lie, and have him attempt to keep you alive because he cant find you friend and needs your knowledge (torturing and the like) 3: Or Lie to him about your relations with the person, telling him he/she means nothing to you and you would like to help him track the person down. He doesnt completely trust you, and would... Continued***
That is absolutely NOT my argument. How is there fraud being committed in any way, shape, or form? As stated previously, the stipulation (verbal contract) is that if the student goes to and/or graduates college, then the parent will pay. This is the end. There is no homosexuality clause; ergo, no fraud. Do I need to tell them if I drink on the weekends, have promiscuous sex, or do other things that are not only NOT immoral but irrelevant? The answer of course is no. No fraud.
Why can't we take financial responsibility for those kids? I think it's about time that the advocate and PFLAG and every other org work together to provide shelters for these kids.
In this 3rd scenario, you've lied twice so far and you do this all for the safety of that person. Then when you get outside you leave the area altogether. That person's safe for the time being as long as you don't go looking for him/her. Eventually you confront him about the fact you've been lying to him, and that the person was where he found you, and is more than likely still there. He becomes furious and orders his men to kill you. Continued***
My father was so understanding when he found out that I was gay...but I'm not gay and he realized that when I started bringing cute girls over to stay the night. My dad is pretty great
Doing a specific thing doesn't mean it's necessarily natural. Some people have sex with animals and others disfigure their bodies. Neither is natural--nor is murder. We're not meant to kill other humans; but some people choose to do so.
So he spends about 30 seconds explaining some bad advice he gave years ago, then goes on & on for three minutes about why he's right about a million other things. This guy is the worst kind of douchebag there is; the self-righteous kind.
I didn't really mean not sure about your sexuality, i meant not sure whether you wanna tell them. and i agree that you may need to tell family later on, but still if i suspected they would not be positive about the news i wouldn't put myself through that.
I think that parents should support their children, and open communication is healthy. The video speaker spoke of lies and deception, as I stated initially. If you've got a problem with that, address him, not me. I'm not responsible for your misunderstanding or your lack of comprehension.
And, you can't blame people for needing that comfort if you look at how many events had to happen for life to exist and, if even one of those events had happened even slightly different life might not exist and, as someone who does believe in an afterlife I do acknowledge the possibility that I might be wrong. So yes I do keep my beliefs as a comfort because there is just so much shit about the workings of the universe that is still a mystery
a person is more then their orientation. maybe if your concerned about not knowing whether your friends are gay, the problem is with your fear of the unknown.
Yes I'm glad it was good for you too, but it was hard for me at times to come up with "clever" responses because I couldn't have made a valid argument if I tried, I don't know much about most of what we were talking about there.
For those of us who choose to stay " in the closet" we dont need your sympathy. Im 53 and never had a relationship...whatever...my parents dont need to know my business. I thought gays understood that we are not all the same.
Ever talk to a retired psychiatrist who used to work in the old asylums? Lobotomies, electro-shock, insulin shock treatments and a list of narco that would make half of holly-weird weep. I still stand by the previous statement, because dip savage is a troll. His mind is so closed, other opinions literally cause him physical pain.
The way I feel about the whole thing is maybe it wouldn't be such a big thing if we didn't make it into one. What people do in their private lives are their concerns. Why feel the need to tell? why do you need to be proud to be gay? why girl on girl is glorified? People in general need to stop putting everything into categories and worry more about fulfilling their own lives. Not to mention people's wants and desires change so what happens when you do "come out" but no longer feel like a nut?
Bad advice that is still given in belief that it is good advice: "Just be yourself." If someone is asking for advice on dating, don't tell them to "just be yourself". Their self is why they have remained single up to this point.
where is the line? or is there a line? What specifically should be permitted? and what should not? As far as opposing views. I still contest love is the answer. What bothers me is that hate is birthed from both sides. It is not a new story. Everything from politics, religion and sport teams causes violence, and that is wrong. Tolerance is not acceptance is allowing others to grow.
You're free to do as you please. I'm arguing more than semantics. You're arguing a moral issue that denies its own justification. You're arguing a principle that lacks reason. You're arguing an opinion.
Since when is science not being taught in the class room? What are you referring to, specifically? Science isn't omnipotent; it is full of assumptions that we accept as truths.
I was raised by 2 straight parents in a Mormon community, so the culture I was raised in certainly didn't tell me it is natural. Again, homosexuality is 100% natural for me - and that has nothing to do with you or how you feel.
What if you have a family that in 30 years has never once asked about or in any way shown the slightest interest in knowing anything about ones love life? Obviously your sex life is your own business and nobody elses but if your family doesn't seem to have any desire to know even the most basic aspects of your romantic life (like that you have one) then why bother dumping information in their laps that isn't sought. My family not knowing in no way impacts my ability to be out everywhere else.
it doesn't actually harm them in any way shape or form though it's equally as harmless as heterosexuality don't matter if it's neurosis if it doesn't cause any problems what soever
Consideration = "I'll pay for your college." Performance = "I'll graduate college." How is this not a valid verbal contract? You'll cite case law from the monopolistic, statist courts? How is that relevant to true morality?
Just because it feels natural to you, that doesn't mean it is natural. You've been raised in a culture that tells you homosexuality is natural, so I'm sure that has influenced the way you feel.
To all people who complain that his advice is bad.... He gives advice to as many people as possible, and he is speaking from his own experiences and knowledge. Whoever took this advice as personalized advice and acted to it without adapting it to their own situation, are DUMB ! You cannot expect one way to work for everyone, so try to learn usefull things from this guy and use those in your life. OR DONT, and adapt them to your life. He gives advice. You can use it well, or wrong.
@toxicomental I think he was generalizing. There are some of us who do not come out until we are in our thirties because it never crossed our mind that we might be gay until that age. :-)
Procreation is just a side effect of having sex? Sex is natural--having sex with multiple partners and or people we don't love, isn't. When emotionalism is taken away from sex, it becomes merely an exchange of spasms.
To their credit, I think that attitude and course is a big part of the reason gay mainstream acceptance really leaped forward in the 90's. Of course there was some fallout for doing so, but I don't think gays would be where they are now without that militancy earlier on.
Why would you compare a human to animals? Yes, we are creatures of this earth, but we are well above animal instinct, habit and passions. We are capable of logical and sound thinking and reasoning.
I listened to a few of his podcasts where he claimed bisexual men were just gay men transitioning from heterosexuality. I don't doubt some gay guys fear the loss of heterosexual-masculinity privileges, but way to contribute to bi-invisibility there.
"Of the estimated 1.6 million homeless American youth, between 20 and 40 percent identify as lesbian, gay, bisexual or transgender (LGBT)." This should be in the news every other day.
That's a reason why people believe in fairy tales and celestial santa-clauses. "Higher power" is a vague thing to say. People who believe in God with logical and driven honesty don't do so out of fear.
I must admit i don't see why people who are gay feel a need to broadcast themselves. seriously if your not sure, just don't say anything. if the question arises then just say yea i am and its not a big deal.. some people seem to suggest that gays have to Broadcast their orientation to everybody. like its the only identity that person can have. Its not like hetros go around saying, "i'm Straight". its not a whole persons identity.
The opposite perspective is also true. We cannot escape our ideologies. They will always influence our decision making. My advice would be to expect opposition. To come to a place that you are not emotionally knocked out by it. Even if equality was achieved through law. It will not be in the hearts of man
I would NEVER advise a young person who isn't financially independent to come out to anyone. One they achieve independence tell your family to go to fucking hell.
I watched the entire video, and i have to say Thanks for showing me it, it was quite the treat to comprehend (most of it anyways haha). That said. Imagine this scenario. You are trying to save somebody you love dearly, whether it be as a friend or Lover. You come across the man hunting that person down, by complete accident or just out of occurance. He asks you where you friend is and demands you tell him the truth or he will kill you. Continued***
Really because I'm an agnostic and I hold a completely different view then my brother does who is an out spoken Atheist. We differ on the idea of whether a God can exist and I say yes a God can and probably does exist but that doesn't mean religion is correct and he's doesn't see any chance of a God existing.
40% of homeless teenagers are gay teenagers who have been thrown out of their house when they came out. - Where the hell did he pull that statistic out of? I've been working with runaway youth for almost a year now and that is the biggest load of crap.
fsclips Or even better, ask them to privately test it out. Choose to be gay for three full days. No heterosexual responses to anything. Just be fully gay for three days and you don't have to tell anyone you're doing it. Anyone who claims they can do it is lying or is in fact gay or bisexual.
And i'm not saying its the Christian God (even though that's what I believe) I realize the possibality that it may be the Jewish God, or the Muslim God, or the Hindu gods, or the Greek gods, or a God or gods that nobody has ever even heard of, or any number of gods and goddesses that humans have worshiped through the ages.
You're a full grown man and you put your mother on the phone with a 15 year old boys mother. Nobody should be taking any kind of advice from a coward. That is childish behavior; running away from a dilemma and getting your parents involved.
The excessively narcissistic, flamboyant, hypersexual-addicted image gays portray and present as an "identity" is one of the major things that kept me in the closet for a while. My sexuality is part of who I am, not my identity, and there are MANY gays I wouldn't have anything to do with let alone identify with them! Perhaps addressing that more often would make contentedly concealed closet cases to show their faces. Otherwise, the closet seems like a valid and better option for some.
I'm confused as to what you're trying to say. Lets start again here: "You said we, the human race, aren't special I say, no we are, since are capable of higher order thinking, creating, reasoning etc. You insist that we as humans have instincts and aren't special. I say, no we are special and while we do have instincts, we are capable with the ability of higher order thinking to choose not to follow our animilistic instincts.
What...? How is that defrauding? Unless they told them specifically 'If you're gay we'll stop giving you money so tell us now!' that's not defrauding. Or if they even asked. If they don't I don't understand how that's their business. o.O
No, both heterosexual and homosexual individuals do nothing disgusting as long as there is mutual consent. Don't fall into his pit of ignorance. Whether something is disgusting or not is entirely a subjective assessment.
I'm not a religious person I do believe in God and heaven but I don't believe in organized religion because it is too easily corrupted which doesn't really make me welcome in most religious groups but, I understand what your saying.
Want to get Smarter, Faster?
Subscribe for DAILY videos: bigth.ink/GetSmarter
The title is right about this being the worst advice ever given, or at least among the worst advice. But I'm not referring to what Dan himself said was the bad advice he'd given early on in his column. I'm referring to the completely compassion-less, superior bullshit he said at the end. Lumping all people who haven't come out over age 30 as chicken shits and cowards? What kind of moronic crap is that? I'm not even gay, and this wouldn't even affect me, except in the fact that I am HUMAN. What affects one human affects us all. People are people, and our lives are not carbon copies. The truth is complex. There is no one right answer that must be ruthlessly applied and pressed onto to all human beings. That kind of thinking is extremely dangerous. It has been at the root of so much suffering and war and death over human history. What incredible arrogance.
+strattubes I think it was aimed specifically at those who demonize others as a justification to not come out. If u don't want to come out then don't, but don't give the impression that ur parents or loved ones are holding u back. If its ur own choice then own it.
I've been watching a lot of Dan Savage lately. I agree with a lot of what he has to say. That said, I also think there needs to be an ethnic and cultural lenses placed on "when to come out" in addition to when it is safe from a physical standpoint. I believe people will come out when they realize that staying in the closet will cause more harm than being out of the closest. That does not mean that life will be better immediately, but the hope is for an authentic (and better) journey to come. It may take some longer before they reach that. I don't think a suggestion for an age "cut-off" such as 30 is appropriate for everyone. This is particularly true for those of certain ethnic minorities where there are additional driving factors that may be contributing to their self discovery journey. I appreciate his dialogue and push for more awareness, but compassion is required as people figure out who they are. This is coming from a man who came out in his late 20's.
Its worth repeating:
40% of homeless teenagers were thrown out of the house.
Unless we are willing as a community to take financial responsibility for these teenagers, we can't just tell them to come out.
Financial responsibility? for what? perfectly healthy persons who are in the best position of conquer the life by themselves??
Or we could educate their homophobic parents.
That too, it would work for some. However with religious homophobes, lack of education can be a badge of honor. They are proud of their lack of education in anything but the bible & no amount of conventional education is enough. Some take it so far as to be explicitly dismissive of their relationship with their kids vs their perceived relationship with God.
Sounds like we need more PFLAG moms like Dan's Mom just for this purpose.
Jacob Shuch Personally, I would throw the homophobic parents into the street and have their community shun them to make them truly understand what the hell they've done.
Guy sounds right and pragmatic. Being a teenager means two things. First: You're incapacitated by the law and financially dependent on your parents. Therefore you don't really have the right and enough freedom to fully express yourself. Second: You're being forced to spend more than 6 hours, 5 days per week, amongst the most aggressive, vicious and arrogant part of the society commonly known as teenagers. You certainly do not want to appear even slightly different when around those 'people'. So the wisest solution would be to wait a little longer, to avoid bigger and unavoidable harm on your body and psyche. It's usually refered as "damage control".
+micher337 Tweens are the real bitches, teenagers are ok
I cannot imagine throwing out my child for being gay. It is so wrong and such an evil thing to do to your flesh and blood. Cowardly and grotesque.
The honesty that he's referring to is self-honesty, and being able to look honestly at your situation and make a judgement. If you seriously think that you're in a better position to not come out then maybe you shouldn't, but don't pretend that your situation is worse than it is as an excuse to avoid unpleasant situations.
....And what about the advice you gave to that trans*woman's wife back in 2010? The one where you called her selfish for wanting(/needing) to transition? The phrases "stupid tr**ny" and "selfish tr**ny" were used. I think that may have been some of the worst advice you've ever given. To the extent that you offended every trans* person I know who read it, myself included. That sort of bigotry is 1) unacceptable, 2) very harmful to the trans* community, and 3) not something that should be being spewed by a member of the LGBT community. Especially not you.
I didn't come out to my family until I fell in love with another guy. He was going to be a part of my life as much as my parents were from that point on. He was willing to accept my parents and I gave them the option of accepting us together. My mom was no problem, my dad tolerated us. But it was an honest relationship from that point on and we all get along better now because of it. It was the right decision. For me. My Dad actually get along with my partner very well after 15 years.
"That was a c(o)untry I wasn't going to visit, so I didn't need the Baedeker."
Brilliant.
It is impossible for the ends to be irrelevant yet significant enough to the provider as to make them feel lied to. If the ends are irrelevant then there's no reason for the provider to care. If the provider doesn't care how the funds are spent (because it's irrelevant) then there's no instance of lying. It becomes simple omission, no different than not telling someone anything they don't care about. If the ends are irrelevant but the provider still cares then he/she is simply irrational.
There's a difference between being self-honest and being honest with others. What he's saying is that you need to be honest with yourself, and then make a decision as to how to deal with your situation. Of course we wish we could all be honest all the time, but sometimes being dishonest is the lesser of 2 evils. You need to think maturely about the situation, it's naive to think that honesty will always end well.
I don't see any wisdom or insight in mandating an age cut-off for coming out beyond which a person is a "coward" -- some dicey conditions for a gay person to come out persist in a family no matter how old he or she may become. If one's sexual preference itself is no one else's business, then whether one ever discloses it or not is surely not Dan Savage's business.
Case by case, and every case different. A professional expert, as distinct from an edgy celebrity advice columnist, knows that.
I find Dan Savage to be extremely intelligent and entertaining. If you don't agree with his advice or his opinions, move on. I've read many of his columns and listened to many videos of him that have been posted on UA-cam and I strongly doubt that he believes that everyone thinks like him or should think like him. If you don't find him entertaining or helpful, look elsewhere. Why take the time to criticize when you could use that time to find whatever it is you're looking for?
So asinine advice should just go unchallenged? Why are YOU taking the time to criticize his critics? You could use that time to just go fuck yourself.
Dan Savage is usually on point, but whenever one says something like, "I have no sympathy for those people," it reflects more poorly on her/him than it does on the group to whom she/he is referring. Even when we don't agree with others' decisions, why can't we still garner and cultivate empathy for one another??
I don't think he's specifically talking about just coming out to everyone, He's talking about coming out to your family. Which may not be important at first, when you're young, but it becomes much more important later when you're an adult and you only get to see your family for holidays and you're expected to bring home a significant other. I agree with you, people are more than who they're attracted to, but at that point in their lives, it's not about being sure or not. They know they're gay.
And all because of how great, merciful, kind, and loving religion is must we discriminant against and beat or human brothers and sisters, because nothing say love more than slavery, rape, murder, and stoning babies to death. Yay, Jesus!!
"You better fucking be yourself. If your woman or man doesn't like it, don't force them too. Sometimes quitting is the opposite of giving up. Relationships are pretty much the only time this is true."
The advice I never got. I had to learn it.
Thanks Earth. You're awesome.
I find the thought of death quite comforting. To know there's an end to things, like a film or book. If anything's scary at all, it is life, for -that- is the great uncertainty. Death is a known given, life could turn out to be anything: good, bad, in some cases perhaps even worse than death. The prospect of death creates a sense of order in the chaos that is life.
He was a bit harsh on that comment, but not wrong at all. At that age you should have your own life, your own relationships outside of your family. At that age you shouldn't be so dependent on the financial and emotional support of your family. Either you be completely honest with at least your immediate family (siblings and parents), or live your life as a lie with them. Or don't even come out at all. Live your life as it is in front of them, and have them ask you the questions.
I've known I was attracted to guys since I was in 1st grade. Nothing particularly tragic happened to me. I have both a father and a mother and they were both very loving and present in my life. Please, tell me what events in my life caused me to choose to be ridiculed, ostracised, and potentially physically harmed the rest of my life?
I like you Dan but Im almost 26 and I still havent come out to my family but my friends and coworkers know. I'm in my 3rd year relationship with this guy (he is 100% out) Believe me when I say that my family is homophobe. Sometimes I want to come out but my partner & friends beg me not to do it because they know my family. My point is, you can be 30 years old and still be closeted to your family. It's not about being a "chicken"
1. They aren't liars if they just choose not to tell people and let people assume that they're straight. I've never asked any of my friends if they were gay, but if they were I wouldn't feel that they'd lied to me.
2. Yes, some of them are liars. But I'd say generally it's okay to lie about your own feelings when telling the truth could get you beaten, killed, socially alienated, unable to work etc.
Lying isn't a good thing, but it is sometimes the lesser of 2 evils.
*** would keep you on a leash but you manage to take the lie and work with it enough to make him not doubt you so much anymore. He gives you a gun and tells you where you should search (as unlikley as this scenario would be). He tells one of his men to follow you and make sure that you cant save that person no matter what. You search the area and end up picking somehting up in the corner of you peripherals. Its that dear person. You keep moving and report you've found nothing.
Continued***
I'm glad this guy denounced the idea of telling every gay teen to come out. I debated this with somebody some time ago. You have to think about your situation as this guy said.
And that's great! As long as you are think about it and make the conscious decision that you would prefer to tell the truth. For many people it isn't as easy as that, because of where they live or their family situation or whatever. Ideally we would all be honest all the time, but unfortunately that isn't always the safest choice. All I'm saying is that you need to be honest about your own situation and be smart about the best time to tell people.
Dan Savage you are awesome, I read your column it is my favorite no fiction these days, you are really funny and insightful. Thank you for introducing Esther Perel, she is fascinating!
A family like that is no family at all. No one is obligated to keep ties with abusive people just because they're related. Leave them and find people who care to spend your time with. Start your own family even.
at least you tried to help. good intentions really do go a long way. we don't realize it because many don't appreciate the intent. sorry about all of that. keep trying, don't stop.
How would making up a fictional story soften one's fear of death? How would there be comfort in a conscious lie? People would know that that their faith would be based on nothing and that their outcome would be unknown.
Yes. I hope he was uncomfortable w/how he worded his last statement(s). I say TRUST YOURSELF, & if that's too difficult somehow, don't punish yourself.
Take care.
I remember being furious at Mr. Savage early on in his column writing when he addressed hetero relationships.
So glad he re-focused and ended up where he is now.
What a wonderful example to young people - gay and straight. :D
I think this is a shortsighted point of view. Parents make a decision to create a child. There is a social contract when you create children that you will nurture them until they are capable of taking care of themselves wholly. However, the conditions that the parent places their child in tends to set the age that the child is capable of attaining independence. There is a societal obligation in the US until 18, however some parents are obligated by their own word until around 22.
Okay, I get what you're saying. I agree that you should be able to be completely honest and have no one attack you for it, but unfortunately, some people in this world will attack people who are different from them. It is their bad, it's not your fault, but it's what happens. The world isn't fair. And we are, over time, enacting social change, but for some people it literally is a choice between lying to others or being physically beaten or killed.
Why is it any different to a straight person 'using' their parents for education? If parents decide to break off contact with their son/daughter if they come out straight after university, then that is their fault, not the fault of the person coming out. I'm not telling my dad till afterwards, that doesn't mean I'm using him any more than my straight brother is. Saying I'm 'using' him would be assuming I'm less deserving of my education for being out.
This man is a hero to gay people. Many gay friends of mine have told me about his sense of humor making a difference. No one could ask for a better movement. Humor to understand what we should know about ourselves as people. I dig this dude. Gays are important to America as a sign of our freedom. I think he's a good contributor to our homosexual friends in the United States. He's a good man.
*** You can choose one of three options:
1: Tell the complete truth and have him kill you (because he probably would do that anyway)
2: Tell a complete lie, and have him attempt to keep you alive because he cant find you friend and needs your knowledge (torturing and the like)
3: Or Lie to him about your relations with the person, telling him he/she means nothing to you and you would like to help him track the person down. He doesnt completely trust you, and would...
Continued***
That is absolutely NOT my argument. How is there fraud being committed in any way, shape, or form? As stated previously, the stipulation (verbal contract) is that if the student goes to and/or graduates college, then the parent will pay. This is the end. There is no homosexuality clause; ergo, no fraud. Do I need to tell them if I drink on the weekends, have promiscuous sex, or do other things that are not only NOT immoral but irrelevant? The answer of course is no. No fraud.
Jake Shears!? THE Jake Shears!? From the Scissor Sisters!?
Why can't we take financial responsibility for those kids? I think it's about time that the advocate and PFLAG and every other org work together to provide shelters for these kids.
This guy worries people because he shares a different point of view. God forbid someone have different views.
In this 3rd scenario, you've lied twice so far and you do this all for the safety of that person. Then when you get outside you leave the area altogether. That person's safe for the time being as long as you don't go looking for him/her.
Eventually you confront him about the fact you've been lying to him, and that the person was where he found you, and is more than likely still there. He becomes furious and orders his men to kill you.
Continued***
My father was so understanding when he found out that I was gay...but I'm not gay and he realized that when I started bringing cute girls over to stay the night. My dad is pretty great
Doing a specific thing doesn't mean it's necessarily natural. Some people have sex with animals and others disfigure their bodies. Neither is natural--nor is murder. We're not meant to kill other humans; but some people choose to do so.
So he spends about 30 seconds explaining some bad advice he gave years ago, then goes on & on for three minutes about why he's right about a million other things. This guy is the worst kind of douchebag there is; the self-righteous kind.
I didn't really mean not sure about your sexuality, i meant not sure whether you wanna tell them. and i agree that you may need to tell family later on, but still if i suspected they would not be positive about the news i wouldn't put myself through that.
I think that parents should support their children, and open communication is healthy. The video speaker spoke of lies and deception, as I stated initially. If you've got a problem with that, address him, not me. I'm not responsible for your misunderstanding or your lack of comprehension.
And, you can't blame people for needing that comfort if you look at how many events had to happen for life to exist and, if even one of those events had happened even slightly different life might not exist and, as someone who does believe in an afterlife I do acknowledge the possibility that I might be wrong. So yes I do keep my beliefs as a comfort because there is just so much shit about the workings of the universe that is still a mystery
a person is more then their orientation. maybe if your concerned about not knowing whether your friends are gay, the problem is with your fear of the unknown.
Yes I'm glad it was good for you too, but it was hard for me at times to come up with "clever" responses because I couldn't have made a valid argument if I tried, I don't know much about most of what we were talking about there.
For those of us who choose to stay " in the closet" we dont need your sympathy. Im 53 and never had a relationship...whatever...my parents dont need to know my business. I thought gays understood that we are not all the same.
Ever talk to a retired psychiatrist who used to work in the old asylums? Lobotomies, electro-shock, insulin shock treatments and a list of narco that would make half of holly-weird weep. I still stand by the previous statement, because dip savage is a troll. His mind is so closed, other opinions literally cause him physical pain.
Can't help but to laugh on this one, even though it's absolutely horrible lol. Poor guy.
The way I feel about the whole thing is maybe it wouldn't be such a big thing if we didn't make it into one. What people do in their private lives are their concerns.
Why feel the need to tell?
why do you need to be proud to be gay? why girl on girl is glorified? People in general need to stop putting everything into categories and worry more about fulfilling their own lives. Not to mention people's wants and desires change so what happens when you do "come out" but no longer feel like a nut?
Bad advice that is still given in belief that it is good advice:
"Just be yourself."
If someone is asking for advice on dating, don't tell them to "just be yourself". Their self is why they have remained single up to this point.
where is the line? or is there a line? What specifically should be permitted? and what should not? As far as opposing views. I still contest love is the answer. What bothers me is that hate is birthed from both sides. It is not a new story. Everything from politics, religion and sport teams causes violence, and that is wrong. Tolerance is not acceptance is allowing others to grow.
You're free to do as you please. I'm arguing more than semantics. You're arguing a moral issue that denies its own justification. You're arguing a principle that lacks reason. You're arguing an opinion.
Since when is science not being taught in the class room? What are you referring to, specifically? Science isn't omnipotent; it is full of assumptions that we accept as truths.
I was raised by 2 straight parents in a Mormon community, so the culture I was raised in certainly didn't tell me it is natural. Again, homosexuality is 100% natural for me - and that has nothing to do with you or how you feel.
What if you have a family that in 30 years has never once asked about or in any way shown the slightest interest in knowing anything about ones love life? Obviously your sex life is your own business and nobody elses but if your family doesn't seem to have any desire to know even the most basic aspects of your romantic life (like that you have one) then why bother dumping information in their laps that isn't sought. My family not knowing in no way impacts my ability to be out everywhere else.
it doesn't actually harm them in any way shape or form though
it's equally as harmless as heterosexuality
don't matter if it's neurosis if it doesn't cause any problems what soever
Consideration = "I'll pay for your college." Performance = "I'll graduate college." How is this not a valid verbal contract? You'll cite case law from the monopolistic, statist courts? How is that relevant to true morality?
Just because it feels natural to you, that doesn't mean it is natural. You've been raised in a culture that tells you homosexuality is natural, so I'm sure that has influenced the way you feel.
To all people who complain that his advice is bad....
He gives advice to as many people as possible, and he is speaking from his own experiences and knowledge. Whoever took this advice as personalized advice and acted to it without adapting it to their own situation, are DUMB !
You cannot expect one way to work for everyone, so try to learn usefull things from this guy and use those in your life. OR DONT, and adapt them to your life.
He gives advice. You can use it well, or wrong.
@toxicomental I think he was generalizing. There are some of us who do not come out until we are in our thirties because it never crossed our mind that we might be gay until that age. :-)
Why is it ok to be rude to people that disagree?
Procreation is just a side effect of having sex? Sex is natural--having sex with multiple partners and or people we don't love, isn't. When emotionalism is taken away from sex, it becomes merely an exchange of spasms.
All 4 of my parents (it's complicated) had to stay closeted when they were kids. If they hadn't, they would have been in some deep shit.
To their credit, I think that attitude and course is a big part of the reason gay mainstream acceptance really leaped forward in the 90's. Of course there was some fallout for doing so, but I don't think gays would be where they are now without that militancy earlier on.
Why would you compare a human to animals?
Yes, we are creatures of this earth, but we are well above animal instinct, habit and passions.
We are capable of logical and sound thinking and reasoning.
who would want to be in a community that treats you like that?
I'm glad that society is becoming more tolerant towards gay people and other types of minorities.
40% of homeless teens are gays who have been kicked out of their home - wow, gotta love that unconditional parental love.
I listened to a few of his podcasts where he claimed bisexual men were just gay men transitioning from heterosexuality. I don't doubt some gay guys fear the loss of heterosexual-masculinity privileges, but way to contribute to bi-invisibility there.
I think it is really awesome of him, that he now knows how to help women as well with their sexual problems :)
i was with him until the last thing he said. those people deserve sympathy.
"Of the estimated 1.6 million homeless American youth, between 20 and 40 percent identify as lesbian, gay, bisexual or transgender (LGBT)." This should be in the news every other day.
That's a reason why people believe in fairy tales and celestial santa-clauses. "Higher power" is a vague thing to say. People who believe in God with logical and driven honesty don't do so out of fear.
I must admit i don't see why people who are gay feel a need to broadcast themselves. seriously if your not sure, just don't say anything. if the question arises then just say yea i am and its not a big deal.. some people seem to suggest that gays have to Broadcast their orientation to everybody. like its the only identity that person can have. Its not like hetros go around saying, "i'm Straight". its not a whole persons identity.
I told a girl on facebook her hair would look better a certain way and she deleted me.
The opposite perspective is also true. We cannot escape our ideologies. They will always influence our decision making. My advice would be to expect opposition. To come to a place that you are not emotionally knocked out by it. Even if equality was achieved through law. It will not be in the hearts of man
I would NEVER advise a young person who isn't financially independent to come out to anyone.
One they achieve independence tell your family to go to fucking hell.
If your mentor says 'shitty', move on.
I watched the entire video, and i have to say Thanks for showing me it, it was quite the treat to comprehend (most of it anyways haha). That said. Imagine this scenario.
You are trying to save somebody you love dearly, whether it be as a friend or Lover. You come across the man hunting that person down, by complete accident or just out of occurance. He asks you where you friend is and demands you tell him the truth or he will kill you.
Continued***
Really because I'm an agnostic and I hold a completely different view then my brother does who is an out spoken Atheist. We differ on the idea of whether a God can exist and I say yes a God can and probably does exist but that doesn't mean religion is correct and he's doesn't see any chance of a God existing.
*high fives* wait... ahhhh.... *washes hands*
Ethics and Integrity is the way to go...if you can afford it. I can go with that advice.
40% of homeless teenagers are gay teenagers who have been thrown out of their house when they came out. - Where the hell did he pull that statistic out of? I've been working with runaway youth for almost a year now and that is the biggest load of crap.
Thanks for admitting that you have no argument.
What do you tell people who believe that being gay is a choice people make?
You ask them when they decided to be straight. :-)
fsclips Or even better, ask them to privately test it out. Choose to be gay for three full days. No heterosexual responses to anything. Just be fully gay for three days and you don't have to tell anyone you're doing it. Anyone who claims they can do it is lying or is in fact gay or bisexual.
And i'm not saying its the Christian God (even though that's what I believe) I realize the possibality that it may be the Jewish God, or the Muslim God, or the Hindu gods, or the Greek gods, or a God or gods that nobody has ever even heard of, or any number of gods and goddesses that humans have worshiped through the ages.
You're a full grown man and you put your mother on the phone with a 15 year old boys mother. Nobody should be taking any kind of advice from a coward. That is childish behavior; running away from a dilemma and getting your parents involved.
The excessively narcissistic, flamboyant, hypersexual-addicted image gays portray and present as an "identity" is one of the major things that kept me in the closet for a while. My sexuality is part of who I am, not my identity, and there are MANY gays I wouldn't have anything to do with let alone identify with them! Perhaps addressing that more often would make contentedly concealed closet cases to show their faces. Otherwise, the closet seems like a valid and better option for some.
I know exactly how they were treated. I stand by my previous statement.
he is right..
I'm confused as to what you're trying to say.
Lets start again here:
"You said we, the human race, aren't special
I say, no we are, since are capable of higher order thinking, creating, reasoning etc.
You insist that we as humans have instincts and aren't special.
I say, no we are special and while we do have instincts, we are capable with the ability of higher order thinking to choose not to follow our animilistic instincts.
What...? How is that defrauding? Unless they told them specifically 'If you're gay we'll stop giving you money so tell us now!' that's not defrauding. Or if they even asked. If they don't I don't understand how that's their business. o.O
No, both heterosexual and homosexual individuals do nothing disgusting as long as there is mutual consent. Don't fall into his pit of ignorance. Whether something is disgusting or not is entirely a subjective assessment.
I cannot wait until we move beyond tolerance and move into acceptance.
I'm not a religious person I do believe in God and heaven but I don't believe in organized religion because it is too easily corrupted which doesn't really make me welcome in most religious groups but, I understand what your saying.