Simon causally throwing exactly any speed he wants is one of the most impressive athletic feats I have ever seen...also this video is answering so many questions I have had.
There once was a golfer from Bremen Who measured his throws 'gainst a layman Same speed on their arm One went like a charm But still sixty feet shorter than Simon.
@@JimJohnMarks I think that's an extreme exaggeration. Commentators for ball golf don't even do that. Baseball commentators don't do that for pitchers. & football commentators don't do that for football. In fact, I can't think of one sport that's been "ruined" in the way you described. The #1 rule for players, especially young players in any sport is to have fun. Stats are just interesting. Stop being a negative Nancy.
@@JimJohnMarks "spout nothing but statistics." Like I said, that's an extreme exaggeration. You're the only person I've ever heard say that. I played baseball, basketball, football & golf through my senior year in high school & never was taught how to play by looking at stats. But it's your opinion to have. Never heard of someone who hates stats. Much less someone who thinks stats somehow ruin a sport.
@@JimJohnMarks Your point is easy to grasp. A child could understand what you're saying without you having to type 3 paragraphs to explain it. You're just exaggerating & being negative. Stats are cool. I like to hear about them. It highlights how athletic & amazing professional players are. Thus, why we have professional competition. You fail to understand that.
The ability to throw such consistent shots and also just stand still and throw a driver 400+ feet is mind boggling. Goes to show what practicing every day and focusing on the right things can do. Simon is a huge inspiration
It’s mind blowing to me how you can accurately judge your speed throwing. 🤯 “My discs just fly differently.” That’s the biggest understatement of the century. You’re in a crazy different world class than the rest of us mortals, Simon. Epic.
Hey Simon, Danny Lindahl has a good (quite recent iirc) video on nose-angle, and how the added air resistance from a nose-up shot slows a driver down proportionally a lot more, than a nose-up putter would. Basically even a slight nose-up angle on a driver easily doubles the frontal area of a slim disc, where as a thicker putter with a similar nose-up angle wouldn't "grow" as much. I think that's why you guys saw such a big difference with drivers, while putters being more equal. And as you already deducted, spin obviously stabilises the flight, and fights against both an aggressive turn and fade. Straighter further, spin good. We can't of course figure out all specific factors in these specific shots from this video, so there's always thousands of small things and not one simple fix. I do however believe that nose-angle is the simplest, biggest factor in these situations. At least, that's what I've observed and learned over the years. Good thought-provoking video, thanks Simon. I hope more people get interested in the actual physics of what's going on. For most of us normies there is a lot of non-power related potential to be unlocked.
I really dont mean anything badly by this, but the gap between 'understanding' physics and fundamentals and the actual perfoming of said physics and fundamentals for someone like Danny seems so great that its EXTREMELY difficult to take him seriously as anything but an intro to disc golf, or just flat out someone who wanted a youtube channel and refused to let their lack of skill be the 'no' answer for him. I truly, truly do not mean anything bad by saying that. If any restoration/construction/carpentry company came to my house and talked me up for hours and seemed to know what they were doing and I follow through with hiring them for the job, and then they do a decent job on half and a definitely not so decent job on the other half....Im going to lose sleep wondering what the hell just happened. Was I decieved? Did they not put in the effort they usually do? Did their wife just divorce them and take the kids? The math just doesnt math.
@@wireycoyote3544 yes because coaching and playing have no differences, and all of the greatest coaches in sports ever were great players. Oh wait… that’s not true at all.
@@Falcon888 I mean, youre not wrong...But that doesnt magically make him credible. Even people who like his channel probably wont try to refute the gap between his 'knowledge' and average level of performance/execution. Seems like a real nice dude, probably a nice card mate to have...But again, the math doesnt math. Thats literally all Im saying. I wouldnt not root for the guy....Just saying someone of simons level saying 'I wonder why ____ happens' as opposed to someone of dannys level saying 'this is why ______ happens' really doesnt seem right. And last I checked, coaches dont win the games...the players do. A good coach can help a lot, but cant lead a par team or par player to a championship. Unless you want to tell me Paige Shue had a coach for her worlds win. Then maybe youd be onto something
8:55 To answer your questions Simon, He threw with nose up while Simon threw with good form. Also, Simon is getter more rpm which is grip and how it releases. First was distance driver where nose angle has a lot of effect. Second shot was putters where nose angle does not have as much effect.
I’m 67 years old and have been playing casually for a couple of years. I play from short tees because I don’t get much distance. I finally measured one of my throws the other day and it was 238 throwing as hard as I can. I wish I knew how to get more distance, however I am throwing about 40 feet farther than I was when I started.
When you both threw the putter he threw an "s" while you threw more hyzer. The spin, form, release angle and nose angle all affect the flight of a disc not just arm speed. Thank you for doing this video! These are very insightful for the am to study and find the flaw in our games. The process of elimination is good when you know what to areas to work on.
The putter is less prone to nose angle as well with it's blunt edge. You can throw a putter a little nose up and it won't change the distance much. Also I'm not sure if Simon power gripped his putter shot compared to the other guy (sorry I forgot his name). That will effect the amount of spin on a shot, compared to a fan grip. Spin and nose angle are the biggest factors. For instance a FH shot is nearly always going to be lower spin then a BH shot. So it will fade sooner and drop out of the air quicker. Discs can also have wobble or Off Axis Torque. If one disc is wobbling even slightly more then another it will not be as aerodynamic through the air. With a putter or Mid this will also be a less of a factor since they are not as sensitive to the aerodynamics. Then of course spin is going to stabilize the disc as well even if it's slightly wobbling, so higher spin is another benefit so the disc flies more aerodynamically optimal.
12:44 Simon: "I'm usually not a numbers guy." If this video get 100k views, Simon should change his mind about numbers. Simon + numbers = entertaining and informative 👍 Next Simon experiment should use 3+ throws to get an average. Try throwing nose up or less spin (if possible) while keeping everything else consistent to see the effect.
how little effort you used on the 61mph throw that went 414 feet was absolutely remarkable as 400 feet is that distance so many people are hoping to one day reach.. obviously not THAT far but for so many its completely out of their reach so it's really stunning to see how "easy" it can be with good form
As a noob with a noobish backhand, the slow speed explains why the 3 discs in my starter set all flew the same distance the first couple of weeks.. I'm just now starting to throw my mid and fairway driver farther than my putter.. Great video, Simon!
Spin resists change in disc orientation relative to the trajectory. The angle the disc is thrown 5-10 degrees above horizon is the key for optimal distance. I'm sure each disc has a specific optimal angle. Angle of attack changes the air resistance presented to the disc. Also each disc presents a different frontal area when traveling up than when traveling back to earth. For the high speed portion the disc has a tiny silhouette presented to the air stream but as it starts to fall to earth it presents a bigger silhouette to the air acting like a parachute I guess. Try filming perpendicular to the disc trajectory to see the affect the trajectory has on each disc.
👍You're talking drag coefficient. That's why my Prius on the highway (not using regenerative breaking) gets 50mpg and a similar sized, but less aerodynamic car only gets 40 mpg)
The more concentrated the weight is towards the outer edge of the disc, the more it will act like a flywheel with high rotational inertia, resisting forces that try to push it off of its initial plane. Putters and midranges are, thus, more resistant to their pitch and roll changing due to turn and fade, the precessional forces due to the upward forces at the nose of the disc and towards the tail. The effect of these forces is felt on the left and right sides of the disc rather than the back and front due to the spin of the disc and how the acceleration adds velocity to the spinning system. Wider-rimmed discs will have greater fade due, generally, to the redirectional shape of the nose of the disc as well as their lower rotational inertia. However, having lower resistance to changing the plane of the disc also means that drivers precess more due to the downward airflow at the tail of the disc, or turn, and their ability to maintain faster airspeed for longer contributes to this airflow and a longer turning line. Overall, discs with wider rims will tend to fly with less neutrality, turning more at the highest speeds and fading more at the lower ones. This is evident in the fact that putters and midranges finish, at low speeds, much straighter than drivers. This can also be seen in the video around 11:15 where he throws the P2 quite flat, and it shows a very straight path with little flip and fade, whereas the DD3 clearly flips up from hyzer at a lower release speed and fades hard. The difference in distance really is due to the difference in cross-sectional area. Putters displace the most air, which means they can glide at the slowest speeds, but it also means they lose much more energy to drag at higher speeds. This is also why popped up versions of discs are more glidey: they displace slightly more air than flat-top discs, which allows them to generate more downward lifting force after that air flows off the tail of the disc, but also increases their drag at all speeds. That greater drag slows the disc down faster, and slow-moving drivers fade, so this is why poppy discs generally feel more overstable.
@@MaxLBogue HI max I liked most of what you said. But for wide rim disc the neutrality depends on rim shape not just rim length. Extreme overstable discs like the Tilt have a flatter tops with a high parting line. This results in the lift being forward of center which wants to "Tilt" the disc nose up. But the disc is spinning so the disc Tilts to the left (BH) Understable discs have a low parting line and are often domey. This results in the lift backward of center which wants to "Tilt" the disc nose down but the disc it spinning so the disc Tilts to the right (BH) Neutral discs have a center of lift at the center of gravity so there is no tilt. However as discs slow down the angle of attack changes which move the center on lift forward. Which is why they fly more overstable with a noodle arm or at the end of flight and fade. Discs like the Nova and most slow discs have more consistent netrality over a range of angle of attacks so you don't see much fade and the end of flight. Decreasing spin near the end of flight also adds to the increased fade.
@@snikwahjets Yes, rim shape is important. Overstable discs with high parting lines will push far more air down at the front, causing an upward force on the nose and early fade at high speeds due to the precession of that force 90 degrees towards the direction of spin. Similarly, understable discs with low parting lines will cause more air to flow downwards at the tail of the disc due to the no-slip condition, causing a greater lifting force on the tail which precesses towards the direction of spin causing turn. Neutral discs have a balance of these two forces, and slower discs can be more neutral as I mentioned due to their greater gyroscopic stability. Spin decrease is negligible; the biggest reason for fade at the end of the flight is that the disc has begun to move downwards, pushing the bottom of the leading rim onto the air with an equal and opposite force pushing back up, with the precession of said upwards force causing fade. Overstable discs are designed to take advantage of this effect throughout the whole flight with their rims that direct most of the air downwards, but you'll notice discs of all stability levels will have rims directing airflow in different ways to balance out their lifting forces. Again, putters and midranges have less fade even when dropping at the end of their flight partially due to the decreased lifting area of the front of the rim on such discs, but mostly due to their increased gyroscopic stability. Catch discs like the Discraft Ultrastar take this to an extreme, given that they have an unbeveled edge; there is barely any lifting surface on the front rim to cause fade, so they are normally very true to their angle on the descent.
Simon ,This is a fantastic video. I am almost 80 years old but for the last few years I nave been playing disc golf. Several weeks ago Alex Ginnelly from Spinners disc golf here at Shelly Sharp in Scottsdale Az. has been showing me how important spin is in throwing discs. I am sure that spin is the most important factor in the proper disc throw. Simon keep up these great educational videos. Hope you play the Memorial tourney.
The best analytic video of disc-golf throwing I have seen so far. My takeaway is: one does not necessarily need to reach higher speeds to extend driver flights, one can instead focus on improving form so that drivers fly farther than lower speed discs.
4:28 The midrange going shorter than the putter isn't surprising; I'm more surprised that you didn't get more results like that. I think it speaks to your consistency and precision that that only happened once. All of these are thrown at slightly different speeds, heights, and hyzer angles, so you're going to get a fairly wide data range. Also, you have a sample size of 1 with each combination of disc and arm speed which is going to add a TON of variance. You can cut your standard deviation down by about a third by just throwing 2 of each combination and averaging them, or about 50% by throwing 4 (standard deviation decreases proportional to the square root of sample size when you're averaging the results) which would give you more reliable results. To explain the different distance changes at different velocities, it's probably relevant that air friction is jointly proportional to the area of the face and the square of the velocity, which means that at low speeds the effect of being more aerodynamic (i.e. having a smaller area facing the wind) is relatively weak, while at higher speeds it's more pronounced. That's why you get more distance increase with a driver at higher speeds and less change with a putter, or at least it's part of the reason. I remember that shot on 18 at Waco where you crushed a putter onto the green from like 450. It still blows me away that that's even possible for a human, let alone something you'd do in a tournament. 8:20 Nose angle, spin, and flutter probably explain at least part of the difference, but there are so many variables that it's going to be impossible to say which ones are important without a ton of testing and/or theory (and probably a wind tunnel). Also, what is the radar actually measuring? "Arm speed" is pretty vague. Which part of the arm? What portion of the throw (beginning or end)? Does the angle you measure from matter? What if the thrower is rounding? There are all kinds of things that could give you measurement errors or misleading data. 12:15 Spin definitely matters but it's complicated. It will give you more gyroscopic stability if you spin the disc faster, but it will also alter how much it flips or hyzers, and probably affects the flight in other ways, too. Anyway, thanks for this nerdy/cool video, it was really interesting. Honestly the most interesting part is how accurate you are at hitting arm speeds. I've seen your old video with you throwing into a net (I think it might have been in your "favorite videos" compilation too) and that was so accurate it seemed fake, or would seem fake for someone who doesn't know who you are. If you actually want to figure out how speed affects distance you're probably best off doing some physics; you're trying to isolate a single variable with a very messy real-world situation with dozens or hundreds of variables, when what you really want is to know some theory. I bet Discmania has at least one good aero engineer who can help you out.
You bring a lot of great points! Just so you know the radar gun is measuring any velocity over 25. Thats why sometimes it said 35 before reading a higher number - it was reading his arm st the end of the throw and then catching the disc in flight. These radar guns are designed for reading baseball throws so they can read a disc speed no problem.
Great comment, though I go back and forth on whether Discmania / Innova / Discraft actually employ engineers to design their discs from an aerodynamics perspective. Certainly they have disc designers, and certainly an engineer to design the molds, and certainly they will have a manufacturing engineer (or two) go manage the production, but in reality these are probably pretty lean companies. If they were paying $140k a year to someone who was capable of actually evaluating disc flight from first principles, we'd probably have heard about it by now. I think disc design remains much more art than science, and that's probably because the industry can't afford to pay for much science.
@@moredots Could be, I certainly don't know. Aero engineers can definitely make good money at aircraft manufacturers and such, so the disc companies might not actually have them on staff. They probably have some idea of how arm speed translates into distance as well as a good jumping off point to learn more, though, even if they don't have a trained aero engineer around. I mean, they know how to design high speed drivers that are supposed to be thrown hard, and how much arm speed is needed to flip something stable, etc., so I'm sure they know something about how flight physics relates to their discs.
@@jgray2718 my guess is they're just really experienced guys who know a lot about disc golf and have access to a ton of tribal knowledge. They may not be aerodynamics geniuses like you'd find designing an F1 car or something, but they certainly know everything (and more) any UA-cam guru knows about parting line heights, and rim width, and mass distribution, and wing shapes, and... I bet you could give Ricky Wysocki an a course in 3D modeling and at the end of it he'd be able to design an overstable distance driver, just because he knows what the feel like and what they look like. Not saying it would be the next Destroyer, but he's not gonna make an understable midrange by accident. But yeah, I'd love to see see video series from one of the big companies about how they actually /engineer/ a new disc. We've seen plenty of "Here's Paul designing his new disc!" But nothing about how they define requirements, what parameters they adjust to get the desired result, etc... Some of that is secret sauce, I guess. But it's what we all want to know.
@@moredots I'm an aero engineer with a Master's in Aerodynamics. I love disc golf. I've looked into designs and messed with some CFD but ultimately the allowable design space is so limited and restricted, it kind of killed my motivation to find something via design better than the evolutionary optimization that players and manufacturers have been carrying out all these decades. I'd be super interested in a throwing machine indoors for controlled test. Also consider the work going into a projectile goes with V^2, so doubling speed is 4X the work, and you get 4X the aero drag out of your hand.
It probably has a lot to do with angle control and the spin. I have noticed that Garrett Gurthie almost always measures less MPH than if you say Eagle does, but seems to throw it almost as far. Maybe his unique form generates more spin than the others, so he can throw further with less speed. Of course he has world class distance lines, but still, seems interesting topic to make more tests.
I dont think spin equates to distance actually, more spin means more stability which would mean less distance, I think there is a perfect threshold of enough spin for the disc to fly smooth and consistent and then too much spin to where you start losing distance because of added stability. I remember when I first started playing I thought I had lots of power because I was turning over firebirds, but it's just because they were coming out with little spin, a little wobbly and the added turbulence would turn them over. Once I started throwing smoother and with more spin, less wobble, I actually lost quite a bit of distance for a bit because I was no longer getting the turn out of those stable discs
@@dustman96 true, but my overall point still stands then. The reason Garret can throw just as far without as much speed is because he has less spin which means gets more turn and overall more distance
Hey Simon! I’d suggest putting the two videos, where you guys threw the same speed, side by side. Then you can compare your release angles, hand position for spin and body position. From what I saw, he leans a bit more into his shot and you’re more upright. I don’t mean he’s bending over more, it’s more like when he plants his right foot at the end, he leans towards the front of the pad and you’re upright. Hope that makes sense. Great video guys!!
This blows my mind! I can't believe you can throw a disc so close to a pre-determined speed. I've never tried this. Very interesting. Simon you are amazing!
Dear Simon I think this should cover most of it. Acceleration+angle+spin+grip+footing+hips+loading+torque+wind conditions+ground conditions+proper release+disc choice+number of obstacles+ temperature +land altitude+footwear+stretching and warm-up+ perfect release+ practiced repetition = Distance!
Thanks a million. I figure just from watching the two of you throw I can peg my speed in the 45-55mph range. If that's the case, then nose angle and learning how to throw "properly" might get me the last of the distance I'm after ;P I was hoping someone would have a normal person throwing a disc at speed. That's really helpful.
This one example with your buddy: i think the difference was his air bounce because of nose up angle and pull through. And like i a comment down below: we need a disc throw machine like a Football Passing one. I think about that for years now to really determine flight numbers! Speeds, Nose- and Wing Angles (Hyzer->Anhyzer) and height release points. Great Video Idea. Enjoyed it! Greets from Hannover Germany 🙌🏼
The reason it is exponentially harder to throw 10mph faster at higher and higher speeds is because the relationship between velocity and kinetic energy is KE=0.5*mass*velocity^SQUARED. So every time you want to double your speed, it takes 4 times as much energy. E.g. a 75 mph throw takes 9 times the amount of effort than a 25 mph throw does. And thats before you factor in the aerodynamic drag, which is directly proportional to speed. This is why the putter and midrange lose incremental distance with extra speed. Their high drag coefficient saps all the speed very early in the flight, and so the more speed you out into a disc, the greater the rate at which air resistance sucks that speed out of the disc. But that’s all relatively simple ballistic mechanics, so far. Throw in the considerations of angular momentum and lift, as well as wind speed and wind angle relative to the discs flight angle (“angle of attack”) , and you get the complex flight mechanics (turn, fade, rise, stall, etc) of disc golf. Happy to dive deeper into the lift, turn, stall, and fade mechanics are - conservation of angular momentum - if anyone is interested. The really crazy thing is that Simon’s brain, through organic learning, is now a neural network computer that has optimized it’s internal model of all these inputs (wind, terrain, arm speed/angle, spin, etc etc) to predict - with extremely high accuracy - the exact flight path of an imagined throw. And its mostly a subconscious effort, thanks to the efficiency of the brain’s design and awareness thresholds. This is why “focus”&”flow state” is the process of quieting the conscious mind and letting the trained machine brain take over. It’s why when you play a personal best round, it often feels like an “out-of-body” experience, since the conscious mind is minimally interferring with the computer that has been trained by practicing and observing the results of thousands upon thousands of throws. SCIENCE! Thank you for coming to my disc golf TED talk. -Brent Kelly -2011 B.Sci. Mechanical/Aerospace Engineering -2011 NCAA National Championship Fencing Team Competing Member - Epee -650 rated disc golfer, probably
Spin imparts gyroscopic or centrifugal force, disc shape creates high and low pressures above and below the disc. Disc spin speed helps it fly by supplying angular momentum, keeping the disc stable. The faster the spin, the more stable it should be. It's the prolonged stability that helps generate distance. Kind of like a top... it stays upright until it starts to slow down, wobble and lose stability. So yea... I guess spin is the thing! Thanks for the video.
Spin and aerodynamics come into play at even speeds. The nose and ejection angle are much cleaner on your throw. You pull on your line the entire throw when he has more lateral flatter angles of release. The rpm is greater when you throw probably a third more than his. This maintains a tight flight all the way through the path. This was an eye opening test that will undoubtedly help people understand efficiency. Thank you Simon for the great work. Your ability is awesome 😎
@Simon Lizotte try the "slow is smooth and smooth is far" myth. Foundation did it and found a slower run up lead to faster throws. I want to see if that is true for those with "perfect" form too or if there's a good enough form that going faster matches or increases distance and throw velocity.
Its not that they were throwing faster because of the slow run up, it is that their timing was much better leading to better results. That is why pros can add up to 20 mph on a 360 throw. Their timing is that much better that they can actually increase the speed of their run ups and gain speed/distance.
In that video they also had a speed gun, and the distance and speed were totally correlated. They were generating more arm speed with slower run ups, as well as more distance (and probably also way more accuracy). The saying should be something like "slow is smooth, and smooth is fast, and fast is far". "Smooth" basically meaning "well-timed" + "loose" (not overstrained). Every musician talks about how "if you wanna play fast, you first have to learn to play slow". You learn the correct technique (which almost always involves loose wrists, shoulders, etc) at very slow tempos (as slow as you need to do it correctly), then speed up gradually. If you try to overs-tension your muscles to squeeze out faster notes, you will hit a wall quickly and likely also learn a bunch of terrible habits that you eventually have to un-learn if you wanna get better. Disc golf is the same. If you're trying to change your technique, you have to start slowly. That said, if you wanna learn do huge fast run-ups or 360s, you also have to practice those, but they are very unlikely to help you throw farther if you don't already have solid technique with standstills and slow run-ups.
Spin plays a huge role. This is why we have the HSS stat on discs and why typically the -1 on HSS is most popular. Depending on your nose angle, spin may allow your disc to stay in the air longer, but with too much spin or wrong nose angle, it can lead to a turn and burn. Much like any projectile launch angle plays a role, but this will change with nose/wing angle. Also, just because the launch speed is near the same, does not mean the discs have the same momentum or acceleration. Someone whose arm speed maxes out at 50 and someone whose arm speed maxes out at 70, the person who maxes at 70 may throw further at 50 due to initial acceleration, momentum shift, and follow through. This of course all culminates in player form. Thank you Simon for putting out top quality videos that people may be able to use to level up.
The consistency of his armspeed is spectacular, I don't care if there are jump cuts but he's also proving a point with the armspeed demonstration. It's technique, spin, and not me throwing. Impressive all around, just as entertaining as trick shots. 👏
great video simon! I think definitely form/spin makes a difference. It's so impressive that pros can throw a putter that far and have it glide while if I try to throw a putter far it'll just turnover and die out of the air and I'm certainly not "overthrowing it" if you can put 70+ mph on the putter and it still flies
This is a key point. Those guys that review discs and say it instantly burns over are just telling us how bad their form is. I couldn't throw a Warden straight until a couple months ago, it would just burn over when I powered up; well, until I focused on really getting a lot of spin in the disc and a clean release. Now I can get them out to 300ft sometimes.
@@prattacaster Spin comes from the "snap" of the disc. Better snap comes from a better brace - which is improved by timing. Look up "how to get snap" and there are some good videos. There is actual a REALLY GOOD ONE that focuses on the footwork (not referring to the X step) to properly get a good brace. If I can find it I'll post it. Another option is look up the sling shot technique and the spin and throw technique. Both are kind of a paradigm shift on how to teach someone to throw far and accurate, but both have some very valid supporting slow motion videos and some really good drills.
Odds are it's more of your release angle than form/spin. Being able to judge just the right amount of hyzer that's needed to flip up to flat on a full rip is extremely hard.
The spin theory makes sense. More spin = more stability = staying aloft longer. So that poses the question, how does one generate more spin on the disc without necessarily increasing arm speed?
"Smooth is Far" you said this sometime ago and it's been stuck in my head since. Your throwing motion is just so refined that you get more D at the same speed a less refined motion will get. Thanks for the Videos Simon !
Just from my own experience, when I started letting my arm whip by keeping it and my wrist loose, the spin factor went way up and I gained significant (30% at least) distance immediately. Obviously nose angle is a huge factor. I'm wondering if in this video the speed gun measures the actual arm speed or the disc release speed? Disc release speed is way faster than arm speed if the whip happens. Interesting stuff! Also, faster spin creates more lift on the left side of the disc if it's RHBH throw, so the disc goes straighter longer for sure.
There are a couple of places in the video where the radar gun briefly shows a much slower speed before picking up the disc speed. Those could be cases where it caught the arm before the disc.
This was the most interesting video I have ever seen! As a new player I know spin is the key, I just wish I knew how to generate more spin. Amazing job Simon!
The "how to" involves all of the body mechanics in your form to line up perfectly. That's why timing of it all, is so important. Each step of the whole process has an important role to help the very next step be where it needs to be. Keep practicing and studying. Film yourself throwing and watch in slow motion to help pinpoint problem areas in the form.
Speed is absolutely a factor. You have top-tier rotation, no off-axis torque, and angle / nose control as well. I think the key to distance is building those fundamentals first, and then working on developing speed. I did it backwards, but if I were teaching somebody else, I would've wanted to learn that first. It really does go back to just trying to smoothly flat release a putter in a field for me, so much has been built off of that fundamental practice.
@@stevenk3418 I wouldn't say Eagle's 700 ft park job was on particularly flat ground though. Still probably just as hard to pull that off in regards to nose angle, height, etc.
Part of the difference in Simon’s vs Raivus throws has to do with everything that happens at the end just prior to & during the release. 1) higher rotation speed from the Snap/spin allows greater benefit from the bournoulli principal acting on the rotating disc which helps keep it “floating” in the air longer. (faster spin = longer forward flight, postponing the stall. More easily noticed when you try to throw an anhyzer putter shot a short distance. If you don’t put enough spin on the disc, it stalls out from moving forward well before it finishes the flight time in the air - hyzering out short.) 2) Smooth release technique: A smoother release helps reduce wobble which adds friction during flight, slowing the disc in flight. 3) release angle(s) - perpendicular rotation: a slight hyzer with a high speed wrist snap allows for a flip-flat flight/helix flight path. Horizontal rotation: nose up = quicker stall and fall and possible wobble depending on the release. Also swing motion can accentuate that with an air-bounce type motion from reach back to follow thru. 4) Grip: all of the above relies on the benefit of a well executed/consistent grip & release.
Simon, I think you're right about the spin, nose angle, etc. making the difference. For instance, if you throw the same speed to get a spike hyzer or a hyzer flip, the distance will be substantially different. The wind also obviously also plays a difference (as it changes your disc selection). In all, I think that there are too many factors to account for to isolate a factor such as speed. That said, especially when you were throwing the four discs, it was interesting to see how they reacted to the different speeds, since with your control and consistency, the speed was by far the biggest change of the variables. Thanks for the experiment!
Incredibly fascinating! My theory: rate of spin, nose angle, and probably most important…off-axis torque. Less of his power went into forward trajectory than yours. I would love to see larger sample sizes for this experiment! Great work, Simon!
What I need to see is how stability affects distance at different speeds. For example, if all thrown at the same speed, angle etc., what stability goes furthest at 60mph? 50mph?
Well I think the general rule is, the more overstable a disc is the shorter the flight. A more understable disc will fly longer if it gets it's full flight, that is it fades back, if it turns and burns that's another matter.
I don't think you can answer that. The faster a disc flies, any disc, the more understable it becomes. That's why pros can throw a Destroyer on a hyzer and get it to flip up to flat, or even turn, and very few ams can. Throw a stable disc on a flat release angle at 50 and it flies straight and fades at the end. Throw the same disc at 60 and it turns first, then fades, and flies farther. Throw a stable disc flat at 50 and it flies straight and fades, throw an understable disc flat at 50 and it turns. Throw it at 60 and it turns over and never comes back. All of that generically speaking, of course. To compare them you'd have to throw different release angles that would optimize their flight POTENTIAL to see which would fly farther. Throw an understable disc at just enough hyzer to get some distance, then stand up to flat, then turn, then fade back out, and that disc is in the air a long time. Throw the same disc flat and it turns immediately then fades out and isn't in the air a long. Throw it on an anhyzer and it turns over. The first one flies farther. It's not practical to compare stable too understable unless you factor in release angle.
@@docv73 I agree. I guess what I'm wanting is to learn what class of discs would best match my arm speed for max distance. If he could throw a variety of stability ratings at 50-60mph, it would help me answer that question.
@@discgolffunvideos Nice. I just bought a Westside Sword today and was instantly throwing further than I ever could with a destroyer. I'll add SS Crank to my list of discs to check out.
I think you're exactly right Simon, spin or rotations has a lot to do with the distance of a disc. There are plenty of other factors as well I think, i.e. disc speed, nose angle (like you mentioned), disc stability, and disc profile. There's the concept of drag which is an opposing force on the leading edge of the disc as it flies (the air pushes against the disc as it flies). I would say that is the main reason for the difference in distance between putters, mids and drivers. Putters have a much flatter side profile or bevel, which provides more surface area which allows the air to slow the disc at a faster rate. I would be curious to see if arm speed is actually a factor or if it is the disc speed itself. I've been thinking about whether I should do some in depth testing of my own on this stuff and this video has lit a fire under me! Credentials: I am a master's student in mechanical engineering with a concentration in aerospace engineering
I agree, and I also think a fast spinning disc cuts through the air more efficiently. That combined with small differences in nose angle probably makes a big difference.
BmacMcFluff, I agree with you here disc speed, nose angle, stability, and profile all play an important role here. I think one other factor may also play into this pretty heavily. Conservation of angular momentum. Just a thought, but when the disc has a lot of spin will it resist changes in elevation more than it would at low speeds due to conservation of momentum? I'm not sure but I'd be curious to do some testing on this. (I am also a mechanical engineering student)
@@josiahwidmayer597 I believe conservation of angular momentum would work in at least a similar way to what you described. It makes sense, the disc wants to maintain its angular momentum and the best way to do that is to keep the path it is travelling. Definitely interesting. I think there's a lot to the science of disc golf that has yet to be explored.
It’s definitely a nose angle, Raivis does a little air bounce in his drives. It explains both - the equal putter distance and a shorter driver’s distance. Because putters fly the same with any nose angle
Ideas for the difference in distance for the 2 drivers comparison. 1. For the first throw you can tell the disc instantly begins to rise meaning it was released nose up causing a good bit of loss in distance. 2. Due to the first throw going higher it didn't allow for as much of a "flex" causing it to drop sooner. 3. Saw a video a while back about how much your fingers can affect the speed of the disc. Basically if the first throw didn't release at the right moment then the fingers would have taken away some of the momentum being transferred into the disc.
As soon as a disc leaves the hand, it immediately starts losing speed. #physics I had this same question come.up in baseball. A ball doesn't gain velocity after it exits the hand. It immediately starts slowing down.
Being a data nerd, this was interesting content. I'd like to see all the variables graphed out by someone sometime. Would be a long day to gather all of the test data.
as you said it's every thing combined , form , nose angle , spin , how clean the release is . You are a machine to know exactly how fast you are throwing , really impressive !!
Two things that affect the distance from a throw: 1) initial release velocity, and 2) the initial revolutions per minute (or per second) that have been exerted on said disc. Obviously this is assuming the same disc is used, winds are the same, level ground, etc. The angle of release obviously affects the measured distance as well, but a particular angle of release for maximum distance to a specific disc will remain the same as long as it adjusts proportionally to the increase in understability throughout the discs usage. The things are all determined by the individuals form and the levers they possess and how mechanically efficient they are able to transfer the kinetic energy from their body to the disc itself. In my opinion, this is why some players experience larger distances in the beginning of their career when throwing forehand vs. backhand. It is easier to be more mechanically efficient in a forehand than a backhand, and in a forehand one generally produces greater spin (higher rpm's) on a disc contrary to the backhand throw. However when throwing backhand a player utilizes much more muscle mass in the throw, and when the muscle mass is utilized efficiently (mechanically) greater distance will be achieved when throwing backhand. This increase in distance is a result in proper utilization of muscle mass/body limbs and is a result of proper disc golf throwing form. Spin on a disc gives the disc more rotational inertia (orthogonal or perpendicular to the revolution of a disc) and greater rotational inertia is required for a disc that is more overstable. More or less, and increase in spin on the disc results in an increase in inertia which results in the disc "dumping" later in the flight. The question everyone should ask to throw farther is this: "How can I be more mechanically efficient to transfer more of my body's energy into the disc?" Simon does this exceptionally well (he has a little more experience throwing than most) and is more mechanically efficient. Better form = increase in mechanical efficiency = better transfer of energy to the disc. To be clear, better form = better timing and everything that form comprises. Please feel free to question my comment here, it is beneficial to be skeptical and create scenarios in which the information may be inaccurate (though I don't believe it is) it will help us all to better understand the physics of disc flight.
Do you think it's easier to create more spin with a forehand or was that a typo? Danny L did a video that showed forehands have significantly less rpms. I personally find it hard to add enough spin to a golf disc forehand. Even though I favour forehands in Ultimate.
Firstly, if you could please tell me the title of the video, I would love to give it a watch, I love his videos and have seen most of them. Additionally, short answer is that it is likely Danny and I would agree on this topic, and my comment was not a thorough enough of an explanation. Essentially how I view this (and am fairly confident on this however I could be mistaken) is disc golf form acts more or less like a coefficient to the players transfer of energy to the disc. I am unsure how familiar you might be with the idea of a mathematical coefficient (or physics, etc.). Let's take Simon Lizotte for instance: He is able to throw far on backhand because he has great form and a lot of practice throwing. I on the other hand lack an immense amount of his experience throwing and therefore cannot throw very far (i.e. my form still sucks but I like to think it is improving) and for reference, I am about 6'5" and have a very similar body type to Thomas Gilbert, or maybe Ricky Wysocki. The only difference between Simon Lizotte (not necessarily true but for simplicity's sake) is how mechanically efficient we are in transferring energy to the disc we happen to be throwing. If I generate 100 units of throwing energy and so does Simon, then it must be that Simon can destroy my distance because I do not have as good of form as he does and thus cannot throw as far. Let's say that Simon is about 80% mechanically efficient and I am about 45% - 50% mechanically efficient (on backhand). This means that (because we both produce 100 units of throwing energy) and Simon has 80% efficiency while I have 47.5% efficiency, we get this: 100 x 0.475 = 47.5 distance units and Simon will have 100 x 0.8 = 80 distance units. The key is that second number (0.475 and 0.8), THAT is the coefficient which is disc golf form (again on backhand in this example). HOWEVER, as stated previously, beginners or average Joes SEEM to be more mechanically efficient initially when throwing a forehand, and thus their distance might be greater when throwing than when throwing backhand. This is because it is easier to be more efficient on forehand than backhand (generally speaking), but this slowly goes away with experience and players will likely be able to throw farther after some time when throwing backhand. Basically, from what you said, I am sure Danny is right, but the secret is how efficient everyone is when throwing. A backhand will generate more spin, but ONLY if the person is EFFICIENT, and much more often than not, people cannot throw efficiently which is why they are left wanting to throw farther (and begin to work on throwing form). Hopefully that makes some level of sense to at least someone, but that is what I believe to be true. Ask away any other questions or contrary thoughts!
@@jodypowell5375 OK fair enough. If youve never thrown a frisbee but thrown baseballs as a kid you might get more spin forehand. If you try to throw like push putt you can get close to no spin. I was thinking of new ultimate players. They can quickly get some nice spin with backhand but will struggle for months trying to throw a forehand into a slight headwind.
@@rowan1043 as requested. I wish the series carried on. ua-cam.com/video/8Nsoh9XPsyE/v-deo.html BH average 24.3 RPS FH average 14.75 RPS (@60mph) During a standard backhand you naturally rotate your grip ~180° during the release. And it happens quickly just by holding on to the the disc Forehand requires more effort and flexibilty to cock the wrist back 90° plus good timing to get the snap. There also alot of videos telling you how to increase the spin on FH shots. Are there many for BH?
So impressed by your ability to hit the speed within a couple MPH like every time! Also, I'm impressed by how little effort you put into 60 mph! His hyzered out a lot faster than yours... which I believe happens when it runs out of spin... so I think it's mostly spin in this instance and maybe a bit of nose angle. His ended up a little higher.
Best video you produced so far on disc golf fundamentals. This will put A LOT of message board arguments to bed! My 2 cents is nose angle makes the largest difference between your two forms causing the difference with the higher speed discs. you can see it with the flight paths, Simon's shots air bounce less out of the hand.
I am 61 ( almost 62 ) years old, and my "average" max distance is about 240-250 feet. My max distance from a stand still position is 270 feet, have only reached that like 3 times. So looking at the results of your experiment, that really speaks to me because now I know that "form" is really the key to gaining greater distance. Either from a standstill, or from a short / long run up. I wonder if throwing sidearm would make any difference at all???
this is a fantastic video. I throw about 60-64 mph and those numbers look spot on. In calm conditions I don't really get an insane difference in distance between a 9 speed and a 12 speed. the distance drivers handle the wind more consistently which is where the advantage lies.
Simon throws his putter farther than I throw my driver. Ok that’s it. I am putting away the discs and getting out my chessboard. In all seriousness, that’s incredibly impressive and informative. I sure would love to get my hands on that Elsa and Anna disc for my 10 year old. She has a Kristin Tattar which she loves but her first love was Frozen. Thanks gents for the well thought out and thought provoking video!
Definitely a holistic approach when it comes to disc golf I think. I believe having the form, timing and consistency is what it comes down to. Awesome video as always Simon!
My brother is an aerospace engineer. For his college thesis mounted a frisbee on a motor in a wind tunnel. The spin keeps the disc in the air. Power with spin, keeps the disc flying.
I believe it is a combo of spin and off axis torque. If the disc is spinning faster it will hold flight characteristics longer which is pretty common knowledge. The off axis torque (wobble) is something I see a lot in lower rated players and this can greatly increase the relative drag on the disc. If two objects are thrown at the same forward velocity (such as arm speed) but simons is thrown in a way that experiences less drag, it will go further than the am who throws with less spin, more OAT, and thus more drag. Just my thought. Great vid!
Sick video! Thanks for all your content Simon, this is my favorite yet and the perfect example of why you have the most subscribers in disc golf. And that speed control, jfc man, so impressive!!
Revisiting this great video a few months later and I'm even more fascinated by the numbers. I'm about Simon's size and based on his distances at the different speeds, then comparing it to my max distances, my arm speed must max out around 55 mph. But I'd add that I very much doubt I'm creating that level of sweet spin on the disc like Simon, so I may be throwing a bit over 55 but my mechanics are suspect at best which makes for a less efficient flight despite the similar arm speed. His last putter throw with full power going over 410' is jaw-dropping to me.
I think your right about the spin. I remember hearing somewhere that spin keeps it in the air. As the spin slows down the disc slows down and starts fading out.
This is probably my favorite video you have put out Simon, and you have put out a lot of high quality content. It is super interesting the arm-speed vs. distance (and spin rate). Definitely explains one of the main differences (I think) between most pros and amateur disc golfers
3 parts to this: 1. spin. Spin keeps the disc drifting longer (stable) as Simon said. 2. disc shape. The shape determines how well it cuts the wind. This is why faster speed discs go further. 3. skip. Skip is under the umbrella of disc shape; the wide rim gives a large surface for skips. When a disc is spinning fast and has a wide rim, you get a skip that increases your distance by 2-5%
Thanks for another great video! I'm pretty sure the doctor who did surgery on your elbow installed hydraulic cylinder.. That's insane precision Simon! Could you show us in a new video what type of grip and where you place your hand on the disc? Is it 2- 3 o'clock, or 12? Would be awesome to compare your techniques on this detail, to see if that has anything to do with getting more spin.
great video Simon! the science of disc golf is one aspect that drew into the sport. Keep these coming!! Also great seeing you throwing at your max speed again
I'm definitely a math guy, so this might not make any sense to people, but I graphed out his distances, and the slopes increase with each kind of disc. The putter has a 5.84 ft/mph increase. Mid = 7.60 ft/mph. Fairway = 8.27 ft/mph. Driver = 11.34 ft/mph. So that is really cool and super interesting.
Fantastic content. This was such a great video. You showed the differences in wider rims between the different types of discs. Then additionally showing the effective ranges reached with good technique. Thank you.
I think you're 100% right on the spin comment. Baseball is undergoing a spin-rate revolution and what they're realizing is that a 95mph high spin rate pitch is much harder to hit than a 95mph pitch with a low spin rate.
This is a fantastic start to the scientific method. We need this to be taken up like 4 notches in order to get some accurate analyses. Throw the same discs indoors at different temperatures and humidity levels. Throw 10 of the same discs all brand new, all the same speed, then again at another speed…etc. repeat with various disc types, and with different throwers. Repeat with different release angles…etc. repeat with different grips…etc. also, record using multiple radars and cameras, at multiple viewing angles and with multiple high speed cameras to cover the throw and the disc, this would allow us to measure the disc RPMs at the beginning, middle and end of flight. I feel like you could get someone like the hack smith, or myth busters to do this. Start a go fund me, I’ll donate some cash to get this experiment done to completion, heck I’ll donate some time and help organize and coordinate the whole thing, just to help get this done in the off season! You rock Simon!
As someone that has been working my ass off to try and consistently throw a driver 300 feet, I find it amazing to watch Simon casually "slow it down" to 60 MPH and throw over 400 feet. Back to the drawing board. I would bet the difference between your throws is SPIN. I say that because I know that's the part of my BH I really need to work on next. I don't get the snap or spin on my BH throws, but I am curious how you're throwing the putter and mids that fast and not turning them over from too much spin? I'm going to focus on that next and see if that gains me some distance next. Thanks for the video Simon.
7:15 The two guys' drives at 60mph: Rivas' reachback had the disc almost at the height of his left ear. Rivas' disc at release point had the outside edge of his disc (the left edge) about an inch above horizontal. (Anhyzer angle). Rivas' disc at release point had the front edge about a 1/4 inch above horizontal (nose up relative to ground). Rivas' initial elevation angle was negative (below horizontal plane) and seemed to aim to a point on the ground about 30 feet in front of him but quickly bounced up. Rivas' disc flight crossed from anhyzer to flat at about 120' downrange. (the only instant this throw was flat; because it was an anhyzer at release). Rivas' flight climbed the visual line of trees in the background. Simon's reachback was at about the height of his left bicep. Simon's disc at release point had the outside edge of his disc (the left edge) about 3/4" below horizontal (Hyzer angle). Simon's disc at release point had the front edge about a 1/4 inch above horizontal (nose up compared to ground but NOT nose up compared to flight). Simon's initial elevation angle was about 1 foot up for every 15 feet forward ( I think this elevation angle is GREATER than the nose-above-ground angle; so his disc is moving through the air nose-down and causes high-speed turn). Simon's disc flight crossed from hyzer to flat at about 85 feet and then from anhyzer to flat at about 250 feet. Simon's disc spent more time in the air in a flat state because he crossed the flat threshold twice (thanks to high-speed turn). Simon's throw, because the release had a negative angle of attack, never climbs above the visual treeline in the background. My conclusion: Even though spin, disc type, and nose angle compared to ground could have been important, the MAIN difference is that Rivas had a positive angle of attack (air hits the bottom of the disc) while Simon had a negative angle of attack (air almost hits the front edge of the disc dead on, but with a tiny bias towards hitting the TOP side more). The resulting effect is that Simon's angle of attack has very little drag, with the added plus of turning the disc to opposite side of where it will eventually fade once air mostly hits the bottom of the disc. Conversely, Rivas's air bounce creates massive drag, and his flight never really has a bias of air hitting more on the topside. (no high-speed turn).
It’s spin and nose angle. It seems like the same principles apply here as they do in aviation: Rigidity in space which keeps the disc pushing straighter for longer (the more spin, the longer it stays stable in the air), gyroscopic procession which makes it flip, and critical angle of attack which makes the disc stall. I would love to see a detailed video from Simon on exactly how he grips a disc and keeps the nose down (he never looks like he is actively pointing the nose down). I feel like both of those play a huge role in the amount of spin he produces.
Disc manufacturers: we need a machine that can accurately throw different speeds to test our discs.
Germany: we give you Simon
On that note, do those machines exist? Been thinking about that
@@reallyjolle Simon Lizotte exists
German Engineering at its finest
Well done sir, well done.
@@reallyjolle There have been a few slinger-type machines, but nothing that will launch a disc at close to 150km/h.
Simon causally throwing exactly any speed he wants is one of the most impressive athletic feats I have ever seen...also this video is answering so many questions I have had.
Who knows how many attempts were edited out though. Not saying there were a lot, but I am sure not all of those were just first attempts.
@@Thisnameisnottakenjk Everyone knows Simon always does it first take.
@@kimano117 he's the Jay-Z of disc golf eh?
There are about 100 sports that require more athleticism than this lol.
@@ablinkontime9890 it's more athletic than cycling
There once was a golfer from Bremen
Who measured his throws 'gainst a layman
Same speed on their arm
One went like a charm
But still sixty feet shorter than Simon.
This should be sung at every tournament
Seventy* 😎
Awesome
Only 60? Hahahahaha
Please keep posting songs for every disc golf video.
Simon confirms why the PDGA needs a governing board of statistics. There is so much data that could be mined from disc golf. Great job!!
@@JimJohnMarks I think that's an extreme exaggeration. Commentators for ball golf don't even do that. Baseball commentators don't do that for pitchers. & football commentators don't do that for football. In fact, I can't think of one sport that's been "ruined" in the way you described. The #1 rule for players, especially young players in any sport is to have fun. Stats are just interesting. Stop being a negative Nancy.
@@JimJohnMarks "spout nothing but statistics." Like I said, that's an extreme exaggeration. You're the only person I've ever heard say that. I played baseball, basketball, football & golf through my senior year in high school & never was taught how to play by looking at stats. But it's your opinion to have. Never heard of someone who hates stats. Much less someone who thinks stats somehow ruin a sport.
@@JimJohnMarks Your point is easy to grasp. A child could understand what you're saying without you having to type 3 paragraphs to explain it. You're just exaggerating & being negative. Stats are cool. I like to hear about them. It highlights how athletic & amazing professional players are. Thus, why we have professional competition. You fail to understand that.
Like statcast in MLB.
@@JimJohnMarks weirdo
The ability to throw such consistent shots and also just stand still and throw a driver 400+ feet is mind boggling. Goes to show what practicing every day and focusing on the right things can do. Simon is a huge inspiration
It’s mind blowing to me how you can accurately judge your speed throwing. 🤯
“My discs just fly differently.” That’s the biggest understatement of the century. You’re in a crazy different world class than the rest of us mortals, Simon. Epic.
Hey Simon, Danny Lindahl has a good (quite recent iirc) video on nose-angle, and how the added air resistance from a nose-up shot slows a driver down proportionally a lot more, than a nose-up putter would. Basically even a slight nose-up angle on a driver easily doubles the frontal area of a slim disc, where as a thicker putter with a similar nose-up angle wouldn't "grow" as much.
I think that's why you guys saw such a big difference with drivers, while putters being more equal. And as you already deducted, spin obviously stabilises the flight, and fights against both an aggressive turn and fade. Straighter further, spin good.
We can't of course figure out all specific factors in these specific shots from this video, so there's always thousands of small things and not one simple fix. I do however believe that nose-angle is the simplest, biggest factor in these situations.
At least, that's what I've observed and learned over the years. Good thought-provoking video, thanks Simon. I hope more people get interested in the actual physics of what's going on. For most of us normies there is a lot of non-power related potential to be unlocked.
Thanks for saying exactly what I was thinking so I didn’t have to do the work, you did it better than I would have haha.
Exactly what I was thinking... but much more well spoken
I really dont mean anything badly by this, but the gap between 'understanding' physics and fundamentals and the actual perfoming of said physics and fundamentals for someone like Danny seems so great that its EXTREMELY difficult to take him seriously as anything but an intro to disc golf, or just flat out someone who wanted a youtube channel and refused to let their lack of skill be the 'no' answer for him.
I truly, truly do not mean anything bad by saying that. If any restoration/construction/carpentry company came to my house and talked me up for hours and seemed to know what they were doing and I follow through with hiring them for the job, and then they do a decent job on half and a definitely not so decent job on the other half....Im going to lose sleep wondering what the hell just happened. Was I decieved? Did they not put in the effort they usually do? Did their wife just divorce them and take the kids?
The math just doesnt math.
@@wireycoyote3544 yes because coaching and playing have no differences, and all of the greatest coaches in sports ever were great players. Oh wait… that’s not true at all.
@@Falcon888 I mean, youre not wrong...But that doesnt magically make him credible. Even people who like his channel probably wont try to refute the gap between his 'knowledge' and average level of performance/execution. Seems like a real nice dude, probably a nice card mate to have...But again, the math doesnt math. Thats literally all Im saying. I wouldnt not root for the guy....Just saying someone of simons level saying 'I wonder why ____ happens' as opposed to someone of dannys level saying 'this is why ______ happens' really doesnt seem right. And last I checked, coaches dont win the games...the players do. A good coach can help a lot, but cant lead a par team or par player to a championship. Unless you want to tell me Paige Shue had a coach for her worlds win. Then maybe youd be onto something
8:55 To answer your questions Simon, He threw with nose up while Simon threw with good form. Also, Simon is getter more rpm which is grip and how it releases.
First was distance driver where nose angle has a lot of effect. Second shot was putters where nose angle does not have as much effect.
Totally agree with that assessment. It's mostly nose angle, but spin is also playing a role.
I’m 67 years old and have been playing casually for a couple of years. I play from short tees because I don’t get much distance. I finally measured one of my throws the other day and it was 238 throwing as hard as I can. I wish I knew how to get more distance, however I am throwing about 40 feet farther than I was when I started.
@@eazyduzzit6626 Go watch the series called "Physics of Flight". Another tip, ask a good local player to help yea.
When you both threw the putter he threw an "s" while you threw more hyzer. The spin, form, release angle and nose angle all affect the flight of a disc not just arm speed. Thank you for doing this video! These are very insightful for the am to study and find the flaw in our games. The process of elimination is good when you know what to areas to work on.
The putter is less prone to nose angle as well with it's blunt edge. You can throw a putter a little nose up and it won't change the distance much. Also I'm not sure if Simon power gripped his putter shot compared to the other guy (sorry I forgot his name). That will effect the amount of spin on a shot, compared to a fan grip.
Spin and nose angle are the biggest factors. For instance a FH shot is nearly always going to be lower spin then a BH shot. So it will fade sooner and drop out of the air quicker.
Discs can also have wobble or Off Axis Torque. If one disc is wobbling even slightly more then another it will not be as aerodynamic through the air. With a putter or Mid this will also be a less of a factor since they are not as sensitive to the aerodynamics. Then of course spin is going to stabilize the disc as well even if it's slightly wobbling, so higher spin is another benefit so the disc flies more aerodynamically optimal.
12:44
Simon: "I'm usually not a numbers guy."
If this video get 100k views, Simon should change his mind about numbers.
Simon + numbers = entertaining and informative 👍
Next Simon experiment should use 3+ throws to get an average.
Try throwing nose up or less spin (if possible) while keeping everything else consistent to see the effect.
There's literally no way this video gets 100k views
50k in 1 day!
Will the next 50 take 1 week, 1 month or 1 year?
84k views. Nice.
Wow 100k views in 3 weeks.
Not bad for video with numbers in it 😀
@@colinmcmasters5819L
how little effort you used on the 61mph throw that went 414 feet was absolutely remarkable as 400 feet is that distance so many people are hoping to one day reach.. obviously not THAT far but for so many its completely out of their reach so it's really stunning to see how "easy" it can be with good form
As a noob with a noobish backhand, the slow speed explains why the 3 discs in my starter set all flew the same distance the first couple of weeks.. I'm just now starting to throw my mid and fairway driver farther than my putter.. Great video, Simon!
Spin resists change in disc orientation relative to the trajectory. The angle the disc is thrown 5-10 degrees above horizon is the key for optimal distance. I'm sure each disc has a specific optimal angle. Angle of attack changes the air resistance presented to the disc.
Also each disc presents a different frontal area when traveling up than when traveling back to earth. For the high speed portion the disc has a tiny silhouette presented to the air stream but as it starts to fall to earth it presents a bigger silhouette to the air acting like a parachute I guess.
Try filming perpendicular to the disc trajectory to see the affect the trajectory has on each disc.
👍You're talking drag coefficient. That's why my Prius on the highway (not using regenerative breaking) gets 50mpg and a similar sized, but less aerodynamic car only gets 40 mpg)
The more concentrated the weight is towards the outer edge of the disc, the more it will act like a flywheel with high rotational inertia, resisting forces that try to push it off of its initial plane. Putters and midranges are, thus, more resistant to their pitch and roll changing due to turn and fade, the precessional forces due to the upward forces at the nose of the disc and towards the tail. The effect of these forces is felt on the left and right sides of the disc rather than the back and front due to the spin of the disc and how the acceleration adds velocity to the spinning system.
Wider-rimmed discs will have greater fade due, generally, to the redirectional shape of the nose of the disc as well as their lower rotational inertia. However, having lower resistance to changing the plane of the disc also means that drivers precess more due to the downward airflow at the tail of the disc, or turn, and their ability to maintain faster airspeed for longer contributes to this airflow and a longer turning line. Overall, discs with wider rims will tend to fly with less neutrality, turning more at the highest speeds and fading more at the lower ones. This is evident in the fact that putters and midranges finish, at low speeds, much straighter than drivers. This can also be seen in the video around 11:15 where he throws the P2 quite flat, and it shows a very straight path with little flip and fade, whereas the DD3 clearly flips up from hyzer at a lower release speed and fades hard.
The difference in distance really is due to the difference in cross-sectional area. Putters displace the most air, which means they can glide at the slowest speeds, but it also means they lose much more energy to drag at higher speeds. This is also why popped up versions of discs are more glidey: they displace slightly more air than flat-top discs, which allows them to generate more downward lifting force after that air flows off the tail of the disc, but also increases their drag at all speeds. That greater drag slows the disc down faster, and slow-moving drivers fade, so this is why poppy discs generally feel more overstable.
@@MaxLBogue HI max I liked most of what you said. But for wide rim disc the neutrality depends on rim shape not just rim length.
Extreme overstable discs like the Tilt have a flatter tops with a high parting line. This results in the lift being forward of center which wants to "Tilt" the disc nose up. But the disc is spinning so the disc Tilts to the left (BH)
Understable discs have a low parting line and are often domey.
This results in the lift backward of center which wants to "Tilt" the disc nose down but the disc it spinning so the disc Tilts to the right (BH)
Neutral discs have a center of lift at the center of gravity so there is no tilt.
However as discs slow down the angle of attack changes which move the center on lift forward.
Which is why they fly more overstable with a noodle arm or at the end of flight and fade.
Discs like the Nova and most slow discs have more consistent netrality over a range of angle of attacks so you don't see much fade and the end of flight.
Decreasing spin near the end of flight also adds to the increased fade.
@@snikwahjets Yes, rim shape is important. Overstable discs with high parting lines will push far more air down at the front, causing an upward force on the nose and early fade at high speeds due to the precession of that force 90 degrees towards the direction of spin. Similarly, understable discs with low parting lines will cause more air to flow downwards at the tail of the disc due to the no-slip condition, causing a greater lifting force on the tail which precesses towards the direction of spin causing turn. Neutral discs have a balance of these two forces, and slower discs can be more neutral as I mentioned due to their greater gyroscopic stability. Spin decrease is negligible; the biggest reason for fade at the end of the flight is that the disc has begun to move downwards, pushing the bottom of the leading rim onto the air with an equal and opposite force pushing back up, with the precession of said upwards force causing fade. Overstable discs are designed to take advantage of this effect throughout the whole flight with their rims that direct most of the air downwards, but you'll notice discs of all stability levels will have rims directing airflow in different ways to balance out their lifting forces. Again, putters and midranges have less fade even when dropping at the end of their flight partially due to the decreased lifting area of the front of the rim on such discs, but mostly due to their increased gyroscopic stability. Catch discs like the Discraft Ultrastar take this to an extreme, given that they have an unbeveled edge; there is barely any lifting surface on the front rim to cause fade, so they are normally very true to their angle on the descent.
This is the thread to read boys.
Simon ,This is a fantastic video. I am almost 80 years old but for the last few years I nave been playing disc golf. Several weeks ago Alex Ginnelly from Spinners disc golf here at Shelly Sharp in Scottsdale Az. has been showing me how important spin is in throwing discs. I am sure that spin is the most important factor in the proper disc throw. Simon keep up these great educational videos. Hope you play the Memorial tourney.
What could be cool after this episode is an interview/discussion with the staff at discmania in charge of the technical design of the discs.
The best analytic video of disc-golf throwing I have seen so far. My takeaway is: one does not necessarily need to reach higher speeds to extend driver flights, one can instead focus on improving form so that drivers fly farther than lower speed discs.
4:28 The midrange going shorter than the putter isn't surprising; I'm more surprised that you didn't get more results like that. I think it speaks to your consistency and precision that that only happened once. All of these are thrown at slightly different speeds, heights, and hyzer angles, so you're going to get a fairly wide data range. Also, you have a sample size of 1 with each combination of disc and arm speed which is going to add a TON of variance. You can cut your standard deviation down by about a third by just throwing 2 of each combination and averaging them, or about 50% by throwing 4 (standard deviation decreases proportional to the square root of sample size when you're averaging the results) which would give you more reliable results.
To explain the different distance changes at different velocities, it's probably relevant that air friction is jointly proportional to the area of the face and the square of the velocity, which means that at low speeds the effect of being more aerodynamic (i.e. having a smaller area facing the wind) is relatively weak, while at higher speeds it's more pronounced. That's why you get more distance increase with a driver at higher speeds and less change with a putter, or at least it's part of the reason. I remember that shot on 18 at Waco where you crushed a putter onto the green from like 450. It still blows me away that that's even possible for a human, let alone something you'd do in a tournament.
8:20 Nose angle, spin, and flutter probably explain at least part of the difference, but there are so many variables that it's going to be impossible to say which ones are important without a ton of testing and/or theory (and probably a wind tunnel). Also, what is the radar actually measuring? "Arm speed" is pretty vague. Which part of the arm? What portion of the throw (beginning or end)? Does the angle you measure from matter? What if the thrower is rounding? There are all kinds of things that could give you measurement errors or misleading data.
12:15 Spin definitely matters but it's complicated. It will give you more gyroscopic stability if you spin the disc faster, but it will also alter how much it flips or hyzers, and probably affects the flight in other ways, too.
Anyway, thanks for this nerdy/cool video, it was really interesting. Honestly the most interesting part is how accurate you are at hitting arm speeds. I've seen your old video with you throwing into a net (I think it might have been in your "favorite videos" compilation too) and that was so accurate it seemed fake, or would seem fake for someone who doesn't know who you are. If you actually want to figure out how speed affects distance you're probably best off doing some physics; you're trying to isolate a single variable with a very messy real-world situation with dozens or hundreds of variables, when what you really want is to know some theory. I bet Discmania has at least one good aero engineer who can help you out.
You bring a lot of great points! Just so you know the radar gun is measuring any velocity over 25. Thats why sometimes it said 35 before reading a higher number - it was reading his arm st the end of the throw and then catching the disc in flight. These radar guns are designed for reading baseball throws so they can read a disc speed no problem.
Great comment, though I go back and forth on whether Discmania / Innova / Discraft actually employ engineers to design their discs from an aerodynamics perspective.
Certainly they have disc designers, and certainly an engineer to design the molds, and certainly they will have a manufacturing engineer (or two) go manage the production, but in reality these are probably pretty lean companies. If they were paying $140k a year to someone who was capable of actually evaluating disc flight from first principles, we'd probably have heard about it by now.
I think disc design remains much more art than science, and that's probably because the industry can't afford to pay for much science.
@@moredots Could be, I certainly don't know. Aero engineers can definitely make good money at aircraft manufacturers and such, so the disc companies might not actually have them on staff.
They probably have some idea of how arm speed translates into distance as well as a good jumping off point to learn more, though, even if they don't have a trained aero engineer around. I mean, they know how to design high speed drivers that are supposed to be thrown hard, and how much arm speed is needed to flip something stable, etc., so I'm sure they know something about how flight physics relates to their discs.
@@jgray2718 my guess is they're just really experienced guys who know a lot about disc golf and have access to a ton of tribal knowledge. They may not be aerodynamics geniuses like you'd find designing an F1 car or something, but they certainly know everything (and more) any UA-cam guru knows about parting line heights, and rim width, and mass distribution, and wing shapes, and...
I bet you could give Ricky Wysocki an a course in 3D modeling and at the end of it he'd be able to design an overstable distance driver, just because he knows what the feel like and what they look like. Not saying it would be the next Destroyer, but he's not gonna make an understable midrange by accident.
But yeah, I'd love to see see video series from one of the big companies about how they actually /engineer/ a new disc. We've seen plenty of "Here's Paul designing his new disc!" But nothing about how they define requirements, what parameters they adjust to get the desired result, etc...
Some of that is secret sauce, I guess. But it's what we all want to know.
@@moredots I'm an aero engineer with a Master's in Aerodynamics. I love disc golf. I've looked into designs and messed with some CFD but ultimately the allowable design space is so limited and restricted, it kind of killed my motivation to find something via design better than the evolutionary optimization that players and manufacturers have been carrying out all these decades. I'd be super interested in a throwing machine indoors for controlled test. Also consider the work going into a projectile goes with V^2, so doubling speed is 4X the work, and you get 4X the aero drag out of your hand.
It probably has a lot to do with angle control and the spin. I have noticed that Garrett Gurthie almost always measures less MPH than if you say Eagle does, but seems to throw it almost as far.
Maybe his unique form generates more spin than the others, so he can throw further with less speed. Of course he has world class distance lines, but still, seems interesting topic to make more tests.
I dont think spin equates to distance actually, more spin means more stability which would mean less distance, I think there is a perfect threshold of enough spin for the disc to fly smooth and consistent and then too much spin to where you start losing distance because of added stability. I remember when I first started playing I thought I had lots of power because I was turning over firebirds, but it's just because they were coming out with little spin, a little wobbly and the added turbulence would turn them over. Once I started throwing smoother and with more spin, less wobble, I actually lost quite a bit of distance for a bit because I was no longer getting the turn out of those stable discs
@@austinrmoser Stability in disc gold is a misnomer. More spin equals more actual stability, as in resistance to change.
@@dustman96 Indeed. I was very confused when I was introduced to disc golf as the terms over and under stable make no sense in the realm of physics.
Correct. more spin means more stability but and makes a disc more understable.
@@dustman96 true, but my overall point still stands then. The reason Garret can throw just as far without as much speed is because he has less spin which means gets more turn and overall more distance
Hey Simon! I’d suggest putting the two videos, where you guys threw the same speed, side by side. Then you can compare your release angles, hand position for spin and body position. From what I saw, he leans a bit more into his shot and you’re more upright. I don’t mean he’s bending over more, it’s more like when he plants his right foot at the end, he leans towards the front of the pad and you’re upright. Hope that makes sense. Great video guys!!
This blows my mind! I can't believe you can throw a disc so close to a pre-determined speed. I've never tried this. Very interesting. Simon you are amazing!
It's so nice seeing Simon out there throwing discs again. So glad that elbow is in a good spot. Cheers to health!
Dear Simon I think this should cover most of it. Acceleration+angle+spin+grip+footing+hips+loading+torque+wind conditions+ground conditions+proper release+disc choice+number of obstacles+ temperature +land altitude+footwear+stretching and warm-up+
perfect release+ practiced repetition = Distance!
Thanks a million. I figure just from watching the two of you throw I can peg my speed in the 45-55mph range. If that's the case, then nose angle and learning how to throw "properly" might get me the last of the distance I'm after ;P I was hoping someone would have a normal person throwing a disc at speed. That's really helpful.
This one example with your buddy: i think the difference was his air bounce because of nose up angle and pull through.
And like i a comment down below: we need a disc throw machine like a Football Passing one. I think about that for years now to really determine flight numbers! Speeds, Nose- and Wing Angles (Hyzer->Anhyzer) and height release points. Great Video Idea. Enjoyed it! Greets from Hannover Germany 🙌🏼
Simon optimizes the spin with his perfectly timed and proportional lag... All of his hinges work in a correct chain.
Also look how much he rips that grass up, it looks like a pro golfer hit a handful of iron shots where his final plant foot hits
The reason it is exponentially harder to throw 10mph faster at higher and higher speeds is because the relationship between velocity and kinetic energy is KE=0.5*mass*velocity^SQUARED.
So every time you want to double your speed, it takes 4 times as much energy.
E.g. a 75 mph throw takes 9 times the amount of effort than a 25 mph throw does.
And thats before you factor in the aerodynamic drag, which is directly proportional to speed. This is why the putter and midrange lose incremental distance with extra speed. Their high drag coefficient saps all the speed very early in the flight, and so the more speed you out into a disc, the greater the rate at which air resistance sucks that speed out of the disc.
But that’s all relatively simple ballistic mechanics, so far. Throw in the considerations of angular momentum and lift, as well as wind speed and wind angle relative to the discs flight angle (“angle of attack”) , and you get the complex flight mechanics (turn, fade, rise, stall, etc) of disc golf.
Happy to dive deeper into the lift, turn, stall, and fade mechanics are - conservation of angular momentum - if anyone is interested.
The really crazy thing is that Simon’s brain, through organic learning, is now a neural network computer that has optimized it’s internal model of all these inputs (wind, terrain, arm speed/angle, spin, etc etc) to predict - with extremely high accuracy - the exact flight path of an imagined throw. And its mostly a subconscious effort, thanks to the efficiency of the brain’s design and awareness thresholds.
This is why “focus”&”flow state” is the process of quieting the conscious mind and letting the trained machine brain take over. It’s why when you play a personal best round, it often feels like an “out-of-body” experience, since the conscious mind is minimally interferring with the computer that has been trained by practicing and observing the results of thousands upon thousands of throws.
SCIENCE!
Thank you for coming to my disc golf TED talk.
-Brent Kelly
-2011 B.Sci. Mechanical/Aerospace Engineering
-2011 NCAA National Championship Fencing Team Competing Member - Epee
-650 rated disc golfer, probably
During manufacturing molding, insert electronic chips in the rim to produce the discs RPM's in a phone app. Sorry for bad grammar.
Spin imparts gyroscopic or centrifugal force, disc shape creates high and low pressures above and below the disc. Disc spin speed helps it fly by supplying angular momentum, keeping the disc stable. The faster the spin, the more stable it should be. It's the prolonged stability that helps generate distance. Kind of like a top... it stays upright until it starts to slow down, wobble and lose stability. So yea... I guess spin is the thing! Thanks for the video.
You are so In tune with your arm speed
Spin and aerodynamics come into play at even speeds. The nose and ejection angle are much cleaner on your throw. You pull on your line the entire throw when he has more lateral flatter angles of release. The rpm is greater when you throw probably a third more than his. This maintains a tight flight all the way through the path. This was an eye opening test that will undoubtedly help people understand efficiency. Thank you Simon for the great work. Your ability is awesome 😎
@Simon Lizotte try the "slow is smooth and smooth is far" myth. Foundation did it and found a slower run up lead to faster throws. I want to see if that is true for those with "perfect" form too or if there's a good enough form that going faster matches or increases distance and throw velocity.
Would be sick to have Casey on for that aswell, since he has a very "fast" run-up
Its not that they were throwing faster because of the slow run up, it is that their timing was much better leading to better results. That is why pros can add up to 20 mph on a 360 throw. Their timing is that much better that they can actually increase the speed of their run ups and gain speed/distance.
In that video they also had a speed gun, and the distance and speed were totally correlated. They were generating more arm speed with slower run ups, as well as more distance (and probably also way more accuracy).
The saying should be something like "slow is smooth, and smooth is fast, and fast is far". "Smooth" basically meaning "well-timed" + "loose" (not overstrained).
Every musician talks about how "if you wanna play fast, you first have to learn to play slow". You learn the correct technique (which almost always involves loose wrists, shoulders, etc) at very slow tempos (as slow as you need to do it correctly), then speed up gradually. If you try to overs-tension your muscles to squeeze out faster notes, you will hit a wall quickly and likely also learn a bunch of terrible habits that you eventually have to un-learn if you wanna get better.
Disc golf is the same. If you're trying to change your technique, you have to start slowly. That said, if you wanna learn do huge fast run-ups or 360s, you also have to practice those, but they are very unlikely to help you throw farther if you don't already have solid technique with standstills and slow run-ups.
Spin plays a huge role. This is why we have the HSS stat on discs and why typically the -1 on HSS is most popular. Depending on your nose angle, spin may allow your disc to stay in the air longer, but with too much spin or wrong nose angle, it can lead to a turn and burn.
Much like any projectile launch angle plays a role, but this will change with nose/wing angle.
Also, just because the launch speed is near the same, does not mean the discs have the same momentum or acceleration. Someone whose arm speed maxes out at 50 and someone whose arm speed maxes out at 70, the person who maxes at 70 may throw further at 50 due to initial acceleration, momentum shift, and follow through.
This of course all culminates in player form.
Thank you Simon for putting out top quality videos that people may be able to use to level up.
Jomezpro and a Simon video in the same morning!!! Is it Christmas? Thanks great video
Pipe down
The consistency of his armspeed is spectacular, I don't care if there are jump cuts but he's also proving a point with the armspeed demonstration. It's technique, spin, and not me throwing. Impressive all around, just as entertaining as trick shots. 👏
great video simon! I think definitely form/spin makes a difference. It's so impressive that pros can throw a putter that far and have it glide while if I try to throw a putter far it'll just turnover and die out of the air and I'm certainly not "overthrowing it" if you can put 70+ mph on the putter and it still flies
This is a key point. Those guys that review discs and say it instantly burns over are just telling us how bad their form is. I couldn't throw a Warden straight until a couple months ago, it would just burn over when I powered up; well, until I focused on really getting a lot of spin in the disc and a clean release. Now I can get them out to 300ft sometimes.
@@prattacaster Spin comes from the "snap" of the disc. Better snap comes from a better brace - which is improved by timing. Look up "how to get snap" and there are some good videos. There is actual a REALLY GOOD ONE that focuses on the footwork (not referring to the X step) to properly get a good brace. If I can find it I'll post it.
Another option is look up the sling shot technique and the spin and throw technique. Both are kind of a paradigm shift on how to teach someone to throw far and accurate, but both have some very valid supporting slow motion videos and some really good drills.
@@docv73 Thanks, I watch the Overthrow stuff, amazing.
Odds are it's more of your release angle than form/spin. Being able to judge just the right amount of hyzer that's needed to flip up to flat on a full rip is extremely hard.
the consistency shown here is absolutely mind blowing
The spin theory makes sense. More spin = more stability = staying aloft longer. So that poses the question, how does one generate more spin on the disc without necessarily increasing arm speed?
Pine tar. though I can't imagine having sticky stuff on your fingers would help with putting at all.
"Smooth is Far" you said this sometime ago and it's been stuck in my head since. Your throwing motion is just so refined that you get more D at the same speed a less refined motion will get. Thanks for the Videos Simon !
Just from my own experience, when I started letting my arm whip by keeping it and my wrist loose, the spin factor went way up and I gained significant (30% at least) distance immediately. Obviously nose angle is a huge factor. I'm wondering if in this video the speed gun measures the actual arm speed or the disc release speed? Disc release speed is way faster than arm speed if the whip happens. Interesting stuff! Also, faster spin creates more lift on the left side of the disc if it's RHBH throw, so the disc goes straighter longer for sure.
There are a couple of places in the video where the radar gun briefly shows a much slower speed before picking up the disc speed. Those could be cases where it caught the arm before the disc.
Great video! Very creative idea
This was the most interesting video I have ever seen! As a new player I know spin is the key, I just wish I knew how to generate more spin. Amazing job Simon!
The "how to" involves all of the body mechanics in your form to line up perfectly. That's why timing of it all, is so important. Each step of the whole process has an important role to help the very next step be where it needs to be. Keep practicing and studying. Film yourself throwing and watch in slow motion to help pinpoint problem areas in the form.
Speed is absolutely a factor. You have top-tier rotation, no off-axis torque, and angle / nose control as well. I think the key to distance is building those fundamentals first, and then working on developing speed. I did it backwards, but if I were teaching somebody else, I would've wanted to learn that first. It really does go back to just trying to smoothly flat release a putter in a field for me, so much has been built off of that fundamental practice.
We need to get the guy from Sports Science to hook up with Simon for a video. "Why it's almost impossible to throw a disc 700 feet on flat ground."
Well Eagle threw that far last week. A handful of pros have thrown 360s that far
@@stevenk3418 I wouldn't say Eagle's 700 ft park job was on particularly flat ground though. Still probably just as hard to pull that off in regards to nose angle, height, etc.
Without gale force winds as well
@@stevenk3418 he did say 'almost'
Part of the difference in Simon’s vs Raivus throws has to do with everything that happens at the end just prior to & during the release.
1) higher rotation speed from the Snap/spin allows greater benefit from the bournoulli principal acting on the rotating disc which helps keep it “floating” in the air longer. (faster spin = longer forward flight, postponing the stall. More easily noticed when you try to throw an anhyzer putter shot a short distance. If you don’t put enough spin on the disc, it stalls out from moving forward well before it finishes the flight time in the air - hyzering out short.)
2) Smooth release technique: A smoother release helps reduce wobble which adds friction during flight, slowing the disc in flight.
3) release angle(s) - perpendicular rotation: a slight hyzer with a high speed wrist snap allows for a flip-flat flight/helix flight path.
Horizontal rotation: nose up = quicker stall and fall and possible wobble depending on the release. Also swing motion can accentuate that with an air-bounce type motion from reach back to follow thru.
4) Grip: all of the above relies on the benefit of a well executed/consistent grip & release.
Simon, I think you're right about the spin, nose angle, etc. making the difference. For instance, if you throw the same speed to get a spike hyzer or a hyzer flip, the distance will be substantially different. The wind also obviously also plays a difference (as it changes your disc selection). In all, I think that there are too many factors to account for to isolate a factor such as speed.
That said, especially when you were throwing the four discs, it was interesting to see how they reacted to the different speeds, since with your control and consistency, the speed was by far the biggest change of the variables. Thanks for the experiment!
Simon's Caddy: "Bushnell indicates 343 to the basket. Looks like you're in putting range."
If you haven't seen it, go watch Simon throw his P2 492 ft over water. It's insane.
Incredibly fascinating! My theory: rate of spin, nose angle, and probably most important…off-axis torque. Less of his power went into forward trajectory than yours.
I would love to see larger sample sizes for this experiment! Great work, Simon!
What I need to see is how stability affects distance at different speeds. For example, if all thrown at the same speed, angle etc., what stability goes furthest at 60mph? 50mph?
Well I think the general rule is, the more overstable a disc is the shorter the flight. A more understable disc will fly longer if it gets it's full flight, that is it fades back, if it turns and burns that's another matter.
I don't think you can answer that. The faster a disc flies, any disc, the more understable it becomes. That's why pros can throw a Destroyer on a hyzer and get it to flip up to flat, or even turn, and very few ams can. Throw a stable disc on a flat release angle at 50 and it flies straight and fades at the end. Throw the same disc at 60 and it turns first, then fades, and flies farther. Throw a stable disc flat at 50 and it flies straight and fades, throw an understable disc flat at 50 and it turns. Throw it at 60 and it turns over and never comes back. All of that generically speaking, of course.
To compare them you'd have to throw different release angles that would optimize their flight POTENTIAL to see which would fly farther. Throw an understable disc at just enough hyzer to get some distance, then stand up to flat, then turn, then fade back out, and that disc is in the air a long time. Throw the same disc flat and it turns immediately then fades out and isn't in the air a long. Throw it on an anhyzer and it turns over. The first one flies farther. It's not practical to compare stable too understable unless you factor in release angle.
@@docv73 I agree. I guess what I'm wanting is to learn what class of discs would best match my arm speed for max distance. If he could throw a variety of stability ratings at 50-60mph, it would help me answer that question.
@@curdit9 I was maxing 350 with wraiths and destroyers, then threw an SS crank 400 easy- its much less accurate though and useless in the wind!
@@discgolffunvideos Nice. I just bought a Westside Sword today and was instantly throwing further than I ever could with a destroyer. I'll add SS Crank to my list of discs to check out.
I think you're exactly right Simon, spin or rotations has a lot to do with the distance of a disc. There are plenty of other factors as well I think, i.e. disc speed, nose angle (like you mentioned), disc stability, and disc profile. There's the concept of drag which is an opposing force on the leading edge of the disc as it flies (the air pushes against the disc as it flies). I would say that is the main reason for the difference in distance between putters, mids and drivers. Putters have a much flatter side profile or bevel, which provides more surface area which allows the air to slow the disc at a faster rate. I would be curious to see if arm speed is actually a factor or if it is the disc speed itself. I've been thinking about whether I should do some in depth testing of my own on this stuff and this video has lit a fire under me!
Credentials: I am a master's student in mechanical engineering with a concentration in aerospace engineering
I agree, and I also think a fast spinning disc cuts through the air more efficiently. That combined with small differences in nose angle probably makes a big difference.
BmacMcFluff, I agree with you here disc speed, nose angle, stability, and profile all play an important role here. I think one other factor may also play into this pretty heavily. Conservation of angular momentum. Just a thought, but when the disc has a lot of spin will it resist changes in elevation more than it would at low speeds due to conservation of momentum? I'm not sure but I'd be curious to do some testing on this. (I am also a mechanical engineering student)
@@josiahwidmayer597 I believe conservation of angular momentum would work in at least a similar way to what you described. It makes sense, the disc wants to maintain its angular momentum and the best way to do that is to keep the path it is travelling. Definitely interesting. I think there's a lot to the science of disc golf that has yet to be explored.
I remember Simon saying spin was the factor in adding distance years ago!! I'm still amazed at how accurate he can regulate his arm speed!! Insane!!🤯🤯
Hands down, your most informative video yet. Cheers from Arizona.
It’s definitely a nose angle, Raivis does a little air bounce in his drives. It explains both - the equal putter distance and a shorter driver’s distance. Because putters fly the same with any nose angle
exactly what i had in mind. he threw it down but with nose up angle
Ideas for the difference in distance for the 2 drivers comparison.
1. For the first throw you can tell the disc instantly begins to rise meaning it was released nose up causing a good bit of loss in distance.
2. Due to the first throw going higher it didn't allow for as much of a "flex" causing it to drop sooner.
3. Saw a video a while back about how much your fingers can affect the speed of the disc. Basically if the first throw didn't release at the right moment then the fingers would have taken away some of the momentum being transferred into the disc.
I'd like to see the actual disc speed for each player at 10 or 20ft out of the hand.
As soon as a disc leaves the hand, it immediately starts losing speed. #physics
I had this same question come.up in baseball. A ball doesn't gain velocity after it exits the hand. It immediately starts slowing down.
@@Bigticket2510 But how much slower is the really interesting thing.
So smooth, no one throws like you. Awesome
Being a data nerd, this was interesting content. I'd like to see all the variables graphed out by someone sometime. Would be a long day to gather all of the test data.
as you said it's every thing combined , form , nose angle , spin , how clean the release is .
You are a machine to know exactly how fast you are throwing , really impressive !!
Two things that affect the distance from a throw: 1) initial release velocity, and 2) the initial revolutions per minute (or per second) that have been exerted on said disc.
Obviously this is assuming the same disc is used, winds are the same, level ground, etc.
The angle of release obviously affects the measured distance as well, but a particular angle of release for maximum distance to a specific disc will remain the same as long as it adjusts proportionally to the increase in understability throughout the discs usage.
The things are all determined by the individuals form and the levers they possess and how mechanically efficient they are able to transfer the kinetic energy from their body to the disc itself.
In my opinion, this is why some players experience larger distances in the beginning of their career when throwing forehand vs. backhand. It is easier to be more mechanically efficient in a forehand than a backhand, and in a forehand one generally produces greater spin (higher rpm's) on a disc contrary to the backhand throw.
However when throwing backhand a player utilizes much more muscle mass in the throw, and when the muscle mass is utilized efficiently (mechanically) greater distance will be achieved when throwing backhand. This increase in distance is a result in proper utilization of muscle mass/body limbs and is a result of proper disc golf throwing form.
Spin on a disc gives the disc more rotational inertia (orthogonal or perpendicular to the revolution of a disc) and greater rotational inertia is required for a disc that is more overstable.
More or less, and increase in spin on the disc results in an increase in inertia which results in the disc "dumping" later in the flight.
The question everyone should ask to throw farther is this: "How can I be more mechanically efficient to transfer more of my body's energy into the disc?"
Simon does this exceptionally well (he has a little more experience throwing than most) and is more mechanically efficient.
Better form = increase in mechanical efficiency = better transfer of energy to the disc.
To be clear, better form = better timing and everything that form comprises.
Please feel free to question my comment here, it is beneficial to be skeptical and create scenarios in which the information may be inaccurate (though I don't believe it is) it will help us all to better understand the physics of disc flight.
Do you think it's easier to create more spin with a forehand or was that a typo?
Danny L did a video that showed forehands have significantly less rpms.
I personally find it hard to add enough spin to a golf disc forehand. Even though I favour forehands in Ultimate.
@@snikwahjets I think he was referring to "beginners" being able to get more RPM on a forehand vs a backhand
Firstly, if you could please tell me the title of the video, I would love to give it a watch, I love his videos and have seen most of them.
Additionally, short answer is that it is likely Danny and I would agree on this topic, and my comment was not a thorough enough of an explanation.
Essentially how I view this (and am fairly confident on this however I could be mistaken) is disc golf form acts more or less like a coefficient to the players transfer of energy to the disc. I am unsure how familiar you might be with the idea of a mathematical coefficient (or physics, etc.).
Let's take Simon Lizotte for instance: He is able to throw far on backhand because he has great form and a lot of practice throwing.
I on the other hand lack an immense amount of his experience throwing and therefore cannot throw very far (i.e. my form still sucks but I like to think it is improving) and for reference, I am about 6'5" and have a very similar body type to Thomas Gilbert, or maybe Ricky Wysocki.
The only difference between Simon Lizotte (not necessarily true but for simplicity's sake) is how mechanically efficient we are in transferring energy to the disc we happen to be throwing.
If I generate 100 units of throwing energy and so does Simon, then it must be that Simon can destroy my distance because I do not have as good of form as he does and thus cannot throw as far.
Let's say that Simon is about 80% mechanically efficient and I am about 45% - 50% mechanically efficient (on backhand).
This means that (because we both produce 100 units of throwing energy) and Simon has 80% efficiency while I have 47.5% efficiency, we get this: 100 x 0.475 = 47.5 distance units and Simon will have 100 x 0.8 = 80 distance units.
The key is that second number (0.475 and 0.8), THAT is the coefficient which is disc golf form (again on backhand in this example).
HOWEVER, as stated previously, beginners or average Joes SEEM to be more mechanically efficient initially when throwing a forehand, and thus their distance might be greater when throwing than when throwing backhand.
This is because it is easier to be more efficient on forehand than backhand (generally speaking), but this slowly goes away with experience and players will likely be able to throw farther after some time when throwing backhand.
Basically, from what you said, I am sure Danny is right, but the secret is how efficient everyone is when throwing.
A backhand will generate more spin, but ONLY if the person is EFFICIENT, and much more often than not, people cannot throw efficiently which is why they are left wanting to throw farther (and begin to work on throwing form).
Hopefully that makes some level of sense to at least someone, but that is what I believe to be true. Ask away any other questions or contrary thoughts!
@@jodypowell5375 OK fair enough. If youve never thrown a frisbee but thrown baseballs as a kid you might get more spin forehand. If you try to throw like push putt you can get close to no spin.
I was thinking of new ultimate players. They can quickly get some nice spin with backhand but will struggle for months trying to throw a forehand into a slight headwind.
@@rowan1043 as requested. I wish the series carried on. ua-cam.com/video/8Nsoh9XPsyE/v-deo.html
BH average 24.3 RPS
FH average 14.75 RPS
(@60mph)
During a standard backhand you naturally rotate your grip ~180° during the release. And it happens quickly just by holding on to the the disc
Forehand requires more effort and flexibilty to cock the wrist back 90° plus good timing to get the snap.
There also alot of videos telling you how to increase the spin on FH shots. Are there many for BH?
So impressed by your ability to hit the speed within a couple MPH like every time!
Also, I'm impressed by how little effort you put into 60 mph!
His hyzered out a lot faster than yours... which I believe happens when it runs out of spin... so I think it's mostly spin in this instance and maybe a bit of nose angle. His ended up a little higher.
I always thought "speed" was actually rotation speed- not arm speed. I hope that makes you curious enough to test that!
Best video you produced so far on disc golf fundamentals. This will put A LOT of message board arguments to bed!
My 2 cents is nose angle makes the largest difference between your two forms causing the difference with the higher speed discs. you can see it with the flight paths, Simon's shots air bounce less out of the hand.
He pulled his disc high to low on his throw, which caused an air bounce to slow down the disc almost immediately out of his hand.
Air bounce and nose up.
I am 61 ( almost 62 ) years old, and my "average" max distance is about 240-250 feet. My max distance from a stand still position is 270 feet, have only reached that like 3 times. So looking at the results of your experiment, that really speaks to me because now I know that "form" is really the key to gaining greater distance. Either from a standstill, or from a short / long run up. I wonder if throwing sidearm would make any difference at all???
We need this redone with a Techdisc! That would show so much with the spin rate and nose angle!
Simon throwing exactly the speed he wants, consistently, is so impressive.
Good vid, definitely form/spin on the disc. That shot of the day was hilarious, dude looks like he actually knew it was gonna happen.
Nothing better than Simon getting mind-blown that physics is actually true :D
this is a fantastic video. I throw about 60-64 mph and those numbers look spot on. In calm conditions I don't really get an insane difference in distance between a 9 speed and a 12 speed. the distance drivers handle the wind more consistently which is where the advantage lies.
Simon throws his putter farther than I throw my driver. Ok that’s it. I am putting away the discs and getting out my chessboard. In all seriousness, that’s incredibly impressive and informative. I sure would love to get my hands on that Elsa and Anna disc for my 10 year old. She has a Kristin Tattar which she loves but her first love was Frozen. Thanks gents for the well thought out and thought provoking video!
As a numbers guy, I really appreciated this video!
This was one of the most fun and informative videos that I have watched in awhile!
This is what I love about disc golf. There is so much about how throwing discs works that we still don't know.
Definitely a holistic approach when it comes to disc golf I think. I believe having the form, timing and consistency is what it comes down to. Awesome video as always Simon!
This is absurdly impressive. I’ll never understand how he’s that accurate.
My brother is an aerospace engineer. For his college thesis mounted a frisbee on a motor in a wind tunnel. The spin keeps the disc in the air. Power with spin, keeps the disc flying.
Simon was just born to throw. No doubt he's the goat
I believe it is a combo of spin and off axis torque. If the disc is spinning faster it will hold flight characteristics longer which is pretty common knowledge. The off axis torque (wobble) is something I see a lot in lower rated players and this can greatly increase the relative drag on the disc. If two objects are thrown at the same forward velocity (such as arm speed) but simons is thrown in a way that experiences less drag, it will go further than the am who throws with less spin, more OAT, and thus more drag. Just my thought. Great vid!
It's been said already but I am blown away by how in touch you are with your throws to be able to hit the speed you want precisely.
Great to see you back at it Simon
Sick video! Thanks for all your content Simon, this is my favorite yet and the perfect example of why you have the most subscribers in disc golf. And that speed control, jfc man, so impressive!!
Revisiting this great video a few months later and I'm even more fascinated by the numbers. I'm about Simon's size and based on his distances at the different speeds, then comparing it to my max distances, my arm speed must max out around 55 mph. But I'd add that I very much doubt I'm creating that level of sweet spin on the disc like Simon, so I may be throwing a bit over 55 but my mechanics are suspect at best which makes for a less efficient flight despite the similar arm speed. His last putter throw with full power going over 410' is jaw-dropping to me.
I really appreciate this. As a newer player, your slower throws give me some realistic goals for now
It is everything. Grip, Spin, run up speed, hips engaging and transferring power. So many factors.
I think your right about the spin. I remember hearing somewhere that spin keeps it in the air. As the spin slows down the disc slows down and starts fading out.
I think spin is most definitely the biggest factor. As I have slowly been fixing my form I am getting more speed and it’s helping my distance greatly
thats insane you can calibrate your arm speed that well, true master of the craft
This is probably my favorite video you have put out Simon, and you have put out a lot of high quality content. It is super interesting the arm-speed vs. distance (and spin rate). Definitely explains one of the main differences (I think) between most pros and amateur disc golfers
This video is epic. As a new player, this really helps reinforce that form and consistency are just as important, if not more, than power. Thanks!
3 parts to this:
1. spin. Spin keeps the disc drifting longer (stable) as Simon said.
2. disc shape. The shape determines how well it cuts the wind. This is why faster speed discs go further.
3. skip. Skip is under the umbrella of disc shape; the wide rim gives a large surface for skips. When a disc is spinning fast and has a wide rim, you get a skip that increases your distance by 2-5%
Thanks for another great video!
I'm pretty sure the doctor who did surgery on your elbow installed hydraulic cylinder.. That's insane precision Simon!
Could you show us in a new video what type of grip and where you place your hand on the disc? Is it 2- 3 o'clock, or 12?
Would be awesome to compare your techniques on this detail, to see if that has anything to do with getting more spin.
great video Simon! the science of disc golf is one aspect that drew into the sport. Keep these coming!! Also great seeing you throwing at your max speed again
I'm definitely a math guy, so this might not make any sense to people, but I graphed out his distances, and the slopes increase with each kind of disc. The putter has a 5.84 ft/mph increase. Mid = 7.60 ft/mph. Fairway = 8.27 ft/mph. Driver = 11.34 ft/mph. So that is really cool and super interesting.
Really nice to have you back in action, Simon!
Fantastic content. This was such a great video. You showed the differences in wider rims between the different types of discs. Then additionally showing the effective ranges reached with good technique. Thank you.
I think you're 100% right on the spin comment. Baseball is undergoing a spin-rate revolution and what they're realizing is that a 95mph high spin rate pitch is much harder to hit than a 95mph pitch with a low spin rate.
This is a fantastic start to the scientific method. We need this to be taken up like 4 notches in order to get some accurate analyses. Throw the same discs indoors at different temperatures and humidity levels. Throw 10 of the same discs all brand new, all the same speed, then again at another speed…etc. repeat with various disc types, and with different throwers. Repeat with different release angles…etc. repeat with different grips…etc. also, record using multiple radars and cameras, at multiple viewing angles and with multiple high speed cameras to cover the throw and the disc, this would allow us to measure the disc RPMs at the beginning, middle and end of flight. I feel like you could get someone like the hack smith, or myth busters to do this. Start a go fund me, I’ll donate some cash to get this experiment done to completion, heck I’ll donate some time and help organize and coordinate the whole thing, just to help get this done in the off season! You rock Simon!
As someone that has been working my ass off to try and consistently throw a driver 300 feet, I find it amazing to watch Simon casually "slow it down" to 60 MPH and throw over 400 feet. Back to the drawing board. I would bet the difference between your throws is SPIN. I say that because I know that's the part of my BH I really need to work on next. I don't get the snap or spin on my BH throws, but I am curious how you're throwing the putter and mids that fast and not turning them over from too much spin? I'm going to focus on that next and see if that gains me some distance next. Thanks for the video Simon.
7:15 The two guys' drives at 60mph:
Rivas' reachback had the disc almost at the height of his left ear.
Rivas' disc at release point had the outside edge of his disc (the left edge) about an inch above horizontal. (Anhyzer angle).
Rivas' disc at release point had the front edge about a 1/4 inch above horizontal (nose up relative to ground).
Rivas' initial elevation angle was negative (below horizontal plane) and seemed to aim to a point on the ground about 30 feet in front of him but quickly bounced up.
Rivas' disc flight crossed from anhyzer to flat at about 120' downrange. (the only instant this throw was flat; because it was an anhyzer at release).
Rivas' flight climbed the visual line of trees in the background.
Simon's reachback was at about the height of his left bicep.
Simon's disc at release point had the outside edge of his disc (the left edge) about 3/4" below horizontal (Hyzer angle).
Simon's disc at release point had the front edge about a 1/4 inch above horizontal (nose up compared to ground but NOT nose up compared to flight).
Simon's initial elevation angle was about 1 foot up for every 15 feet forward ( I think this elevation angle is GREATER than the nose-above-ground angle; so his disc is moving through the air nose-down and causes high-speed turn).
Simon's disc flight crossed from hyzer to flat at about 85 feet and then from anhyzer to flat at about 250 feet.
Simon's disc spent more time in the air in a flat state because he crossed the flat threshold twice (thanks to high-speed turn).
Simon's throw, because the release had a negative angle of attack, never climbs above the visual treeline in the background.
My conclusion: Even though spin, disc type, and nose angle compared to ground could have been important, the MAIN difference is that Rivas had a positive angle of attack (air hits the bottom of the disc) while Simon had a negative angle of attack (air almost hits the front edge of the disc dead on, but with a tiny bias towards hitting the TOP side more). The resulting effect is that Simon's angle of attack has very little drag, with the added plus of turning the disc to opposite side of where it will eventually fade once air mostly hits the bottom of the disc. Conversely, Rivas's air bounce creates massive drag, and his flight never really has a bias of air hitting more on the topside. (no high-speed turn).
I love this video - i really like all these comparisons
It’s spin and nose angle. It seems like the same principles apply here as they do in aviation: Rigidity in space which keeps the disc pushing straighter for longer (the more spin, the longer it stays stable in the air), gyroscopic procession which makes it flip, and critical angle of attack which makes the disc stall. I would love to see a detailed video from Simon on exactly how he grips a disc and keeps the nose down (he never looks like he is actively pointing the nose down). I feel like both of those play a huge role in the amount of spin he produces.
That was a amazing video, who needs a robot when you have Simon Lizotte?!