The Essence/Energy Distinction Enables the Conception of Theosis | Nathan Jacobs & Jonathan Pageau
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- Опубліковано 20 лют 2022
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Theology for Those Who Don’t Fit | with Dr. Nathan Jacobs: • Theology for Those Who...
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Pray for me. I want to get to an Orthodox Church
Thank God our souls don’t depend on understanding these nuances.
For many years I studied faith with profound intent, and then God showed me faith was in the little acts of love I had been neglecting.
Could our souls depend on a false faith by putting faithful's trust in a creation through the teaching of created grace?Such a false teaching of created grace dictates that man could only get created forms or stamps of divine grace. Such a doctrime denies any participation in the Uncreated Divine Energy and Life of God. In such a teaching, the gap between a supposed created grace and the Essence of God is infinite. This leads to abstention from any real experience of God.
@@dimitrispeiraias You misrepresent created grace. God is not absent from his creation because he is the cause of it. The love of God can be manifested in created things (like the body of Christ). I am not sure why you give such a negative image to creation. Is it because Palamism is rooted in neo-platonism which despises the creation? For me you need to introduce EE distinction because you started with the wrong metaphysical assumptions about creation.
Also, how is uncreated energy supposed to work? How creatures living in space and time are supposed to interact directly with uncreated energies? Why is that less a problem of interacting directly with uncreated energies than to interact directly with God's essence? When you see uncreated light with your eyes, you don't see photons? Or you see uncreated photons?
@@nono-bt8gy It isn't that you can't see the solution. It is that you can't see the problem. The philosophical contradictions of Aquinas should have already rung a bell.
Just think how Aquinas contradicts himself when he asserts that God knows all creation solely as an eternal reflection of uncreated creation within himself.
If the creation is known to God only by His reflecting on Himself in eternity outside of the creation, then how is the incarnation even possible?
The Christian Theology isn't about philosophising. The Christian Theology is about living the mystery of God Who is beyond all understanding.
The mystery of God is the mystery of the Uncreated Eternal Life Who is Ecstatic Love!
Christianity isn't meant to be about a distant transaction between us and God! It is a transformational fullness of Life!
It is about experiencing the fullness of Christ's mystery! Such an experience is really crucial in order to truly Know the Uncreated God!
Only the Uncreated is Immortal and the cause of life and immortality!
It follows that isolating anything created from its Creator causes the process of its erosion! That process is reversible which means redeemable only by communing with God's Uncreated Energies!
It's about Theosis in the Orthodox Theology! It's about a transcendental transformation by experiencing God's Uncreated Life.
The protestant and roman catholic theology denies that the created may commune with the Uncreated God by denying God's Uncreated energies!
However, our life cries out for fullness! We won't experience Life that is Life to the full, unless we experience the Eternal!
Experiencing the Eternal is not about daydreaming! Experiencing the Eternal is about living for real by experiencing God Who is Life to the full!
You may experience God's Power and be wrapped in awe! You may be filled with God's Love and be profoundly affected! You may be enlightened by God's Light and emerge from any darkness! You may partake of God's Life and live for real!
You may experience the Eternity of the Uncreatedness by God's Will, through His Son's Grace, in His Spirit's Communion.
Of course, we could never commune with God's essence but we may commune with God's Uncreated energies by experiencing the Divine and human person of Christ!
By participating in Christ's Mystical Supper, we may partake of His Life and live for real! His Life becomes our Life! Thus we partake of His Uncreated Divine Energy that is of His Father and of His Spirit!
You are always welcomed to experience the mystery of God's Love in the Orthodox Church!
May God's Love be your Life, so that you may experience Life that is Life to the full!
God bless you and Live for real!
@@dimitrispeiraias So uncreated grace existed before God freely created us? But in that case, if God decided not to create us, what was the purpose of uncreated grace exactly? What does that mean for God to be out of his essence?
BTW, you did not answer my question about how thenu created is supposed to directly interact with the created?
Anyway, I think EE is a fix to a broken view of the creation, which introduces lots of superfluous difficulties. If you understand that there is no need for a middle layer between creation and the essence of God because the creation is good and already manifests God's love, you don't need EE distinction. Christians did not wait for Palamas to experience God.
@@nono-bt8gy The Uncreated Grace is God's Uncreated Energies (such as Love, Peace, Light, Justice, Life...). The Uncreated Energies are eternally manifested as common attributes in the inner Trinitarian Life.
Eternally, God the Father manifests His Love through His Son in His Holy Spirit!
Eternally, God the Son manifests His Love from His Father in His Holy Spirit!
Eternally, God the Holy Spirit manifests Its Love from the Father through His Son!
Eternally, God the Father manifests His Life through His Son in His Holy Spirit!
Eternally, God the Son manifests His Life from His Father in His Holy Spirit!
Eternally, God the Holy Spirit manifests Its Life from the Father through His Son!
Eternally, God the Father manifests His Light through His Son in His Holy Spirit!
Eternally, God the Son manifests His Light from His Father in His Holy Spirit!
Eternally, God the Holy Spirit manifests Its Light from the Father through His Son!
And so forth....
keep in mind that the Divine Essence is God as He is in Himself, unknowable not only to man but to any created intellect; the Divine Energies (such as Love, Peace, Light, Justice, Life...) are God as He manifests Himself eternally and as He gives Himself to be shared by creatures in time. Through this distinction you may defend the possibility of a real participation in the divine life without implying or endorsing pantheism.
Jonathan speech indicates he has located precisely the truth that thoughts are visual. Visual way before we hear them inside our heads as words. Which in the end are lacking.
Revelation 14:12 King James Version 12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
One way to think of the two distinct worldviews, is to consider the difference, not between a lock and a key, but between a key and an eye. I have mixed a metaphor for this purpose: the hole in which the key belongs may belong to more than one key, because the form of the key, the shape, is not the unique factor; even so, the shape of the religion may give way to many different instantiations of the same archetypal expression, the outward decorations notwithstanding. In this manner the West can be seen as a similar key, if not the same key in the basic determinations, but what separates the East from the West is the eye, and not the key, so that when the door opens, so to speak, and the participants are initiated into the room, what the two see is not the same or what the two see is not seen in the same way, because the eyes by which the fundamental ontology is represented are not biting-down on the same being, and therefore are not unlocking the same lock; even when they stand in the same room, they are not standing in the same relation to the same room. This is one of the reasons why metaphysics is practical.
Jonathan, have you ever looked into the Mandelbrot Set? I wonder if you would draw connections between it and the idea of God as the eternal and unmoved one.
I’d love to hear your thoughts through your own lens, but to save writing another comment, I’ll just leave a few thoughts here if you’re looking for a point of conversation.
The idea of “coherence” has been really helpful for me in meditating on Christ as the logos, who reveals the coherent Way. God is infinite, which results in infinite possibilities we could force our way into. But created beings need to exist within the proper pattern of coherence if we are to become light and produce good fruit. If we leave coherence by giving allegiance to a spirit that is not in the Logos/coherence, we enter incoherence.
We quickly see bad fruit growing out of this diseased body, and begin to manifest incoherence (more visible sins). If we stay in incoherence we spiral into more incoherence, and our soul enters into the infinite darkness that is God.
If this pattern carries within a few generations, unless grace occurs, the spirit that manifested our tribe or city or nation is lost to the infinite darkness of God.
Ok I don’t know if that makes any sense to you or resonates, or even if you’ll see this, but thanks for being a consistent voice of wisdom and theological reflection. Your theology videos represent the best of the internet.
Awesome explanation! As a Westerner I struggled to grasp energy/essence. I am sure it is much deeper than this but I feel like I have a solid base to work with.
Simple confuse start in the west with the translations. Scripture original language text shows the energies of God ενέργεια ενεργηματα it writes
Read the work of Kallistos ware for a deeper and more detailed understanding
Plus, reading St. Gregory Palamas and Maximus the Confessor which are the more nuanced foundation for this metaphysical conception of God.
This is the clearest explanation I've ever heard of the essence and energies distinction. I know I'm a late comer to the conversation, but could anyone clarify for me in plain language how theosis differs from hypostatic union and from spiration? I'm trying to grasp how they all fit together. Also any reading recs are appreciated.
Theosis is the union of the creature with the Divine energies, which according to Saint Gregory Palamas, are the life, glory and radiance of God, and by glory it is not meant in the same sense for that shared by the three divine persons of the Trinity, simply put, God's energies are his activities that involve the expressions of his life, glory and radiance where the creature can partake in them.
As for the Hypostatic union, it is the union that's unique only to Christ (second person of the Trinity; the Hypostasis of the Son) with the creature, in which the Son's hypostasis and his energies are united with the human Jesus.
Another union that should be understood is that of God's essence, a union shared by the three Divine Hypostasis.
@@joseephkhoury9420 did christs manhood yield to the Holy Spirit or His own divine nature?
If Jesus is the example for us, what is His relationship to the Holy Spirit and how does that compare with ours?
Did Christs humanity lean on His divine nature to obey? Or was it through the empowering Holy Spirit?
I think this has practical implications for our own lives.
@@Aaron637 As for your first question, it is the work of the Holy Trinity, when it comes to the activity and dynamic of the Trinity, all of the Hypostasis are at work, but certain hypostasis will take the lead in a specific role, for example, in the incarnation, it was the Hypostasis of the Son who took on himself to be united with our humanity (hypostatic union), nonetheless, all the Hypostasis were involved in actualization of the event of the incarnation, that's the role of the Holy Spirit is mentioned.
Same thing with redemption, the Father initiates, through the Son, in the Holy Spirit. The Son is the one incarnate because he is the one who took on himself the role of the hypostatic union.
As for your second question, that's still a mystery no one can provide, in my opinion, a definitive answer to it, but, what we can say, is such approach depends on what model of the Incarnation you subscribe to. Nonetheless, the Son was and is and will always be this one person with 2 natures that will not be separated, so in his ministry and temptations the Son in his incarnate state was the (one person with 2 natures) in every aspect of his life, and it had to be a union of the Divine with the human so that the human can prevail and defeat death and sin, since no man by himslef and his own power can live a sinless life, and since God is the only one who is sinless, Christ was indeed God-in-the-rescue type of union with humanity. It is a fact that must humble ourselves and acknowledge our limitations and weaknesses and to seek him first and above all, yet at the same time all the Hypostasis of the Trinity were at work even when the Son was in the state of incarnation, therefore, to highlight a specific Hypostasis as the doer in something, that doesn't mean the other Hypostasis were in-active and not operative, since our Creed states clearly that this union of essence is without merge, separation, division or fusion, yet they share in the same essence with distinctions in hypostatic attributes that are unique to each Hypostasis
@@joseephkhoury9420 do we have a similar hypostasis when we receive the Spirit? Ie 2 natures in us, one alien (God Himself in us) and one native (our own human nature)?
Is it therefore possible to be exactly like Jesus by His Spirit in this life?
I think thats what Romans 8 gets at when it says Christ condemned sin in the flesh by taking ok flesh that by the Spirit we can actually fulfil the righteous requirement of the law. Ie walk actually in loving union and obedience to Jesus.
Is Jesus then this perfect inverse mirror of us in this very life? Ie God became man so that man may become god. That is we don't ontologically become God, just as Christ's deity didnt become humanity. Rather He took humanity to himself. I guess the difference is we dont "take" divinity to ourself, rather God graciously gives it, that is His Holy Spirit to forever dwell in us. The divine nature permanently being in us.
Is this theologically accurate?
The incarnation seems to remove excuses for present sin in people's lives.
Thoughts?
"We are by grace what He is by nature".
Im a Protestant but am gleaning alot from orthodoxy. Im well read on the apostolic fathers. Irenaeus and athenasius are awesome.
Dr. Nathan seems to be misrepresenting the Catholic theology of created grace. It doesn't mean that God is absent in his encounter with human being, simply because He is the cause of those graces and these graces help human beings to respond to God's love. It only mean that God's Essence is incommunicable. It utterly belongs to who he is, his Divine Being.
The supposed experience of God through created grace puts our trust in a creation. In such a case, the gap between a supposed created grace and the Essence of God is infinite. This leads to abstention from any real experience of God, which is applied atheism.
@@dimitrispeiraias How are you putting trust in creation when God is the cause of that grace and when that grace helps you to respond to God's love?
@@melroycorrea7720 By believing that you may experience nothing else but creation, your goal is nothing else but creation, since you have nothing more to anticipate.
@@dimitrispeiraiasI can put it this way... you can never experience the fullness of God and live (the Holy Scriptures clearly testify to it), but you can experience the effects of His Grace and Love in you, that can put you into a real relationship with God. It is this relationship of Sonship that is true meaning of Divinization and not some 'grasping' of divine powers that makes us Divine
@@melroycorrea7720 Unfortunately the false teaching of created grace dictates that man could only get created forms or stamps of divine grace. Such a doctrime denies any participation in the Uncreated Divine Energy and Life of God, since such an Energy and Life is beyond creation.
The essence-energies distinction appears to correspond more or less to the distinction between agent and action..
Not exactly. Action, yes but "agent" corresponds more with the idea of person and you MUST not confuse Nature (Essence) with Person (Agent) or vice versa
@@panokostouros7609 why not?
@@Simon_Alexnder you can’t confuse essence with person because it is heresy condemned by all Church synods. This is basic teaching of the Church
@@Alexandru20101991 I am not a Christian. I am asking as far as why this is logically incorrect.
@@Simon_Alexnder pardon me then for presupposing. But please try find for example letter no 38 of Saint Basil of Caesarea where he explains the difference. Or the exposition of faith by St. John Damascene.
A short description would be this one: humanity is the nature while the person is a particular person who bears the human nature. For example we two are two humans but we are two person while the human nature is one in us both.
Nature is humanity while persons are Philo Judaeus or LeBron James. You and lebron are not the same person but you both are human in nature.
How does divine simplicity negate a participation metaphysics? It involves an analogy of being, which is totally a participation metaphysics.
I'm really confused by this, because the way the idea of created grace is being presented, as God being apart from creation, is simply not what you see in any catholic theology. Then you say "this is what the Orthodox believe instead" and proceed to say everything as Catholics have always taught. Created grace in my view is simply the idea that man cannot "become God" in the fullness of his essence. Now I'm sure the Orthodox don't believe theosis turns you into God either. So what exactly is going on? I feel like catholic theology is being seriously misunderstood here. In fact I seriously think we are referring to the same things with different terms.
The problem is that there no such thing as a created grace that can make a man like god. No thing created can produce the love of God in you, only His grace in you. Since He is uncreated so is His grace in you.
Created means ex nihilo, something that never was now begins to be. You can’t say that you participate in the grace of God and in the same time say that this grace is created now when it touches you. No. It is rather you who touch The uncreated God through His uncreated grace.
"Then you say "this is what the Orthodox believe instead" and proceed to say everything as Catholics have always taught."
--I agree. I don't see the distinction aside from terminology.
So, is it safe to say that the energies of God, which are God, is the Holy Spirit, who processes from the Father? If his energies are God, that would explain why the Holy Spirit is refered to as both a He and and it in scripture, as both power and person
So "Energy" is God the Holy Spirit and his relationship with creation?
No energy is the operation of God as a Trinity ,it can be used for the operation of all the person of the Trinity.
@@user-pj7sq7ce1f Thanks, that's helpful.
Does this "mechanism" of Theosis not make the Incarnation unncessary?
Jesus Christ the Son of God, by uniting man and God in His own one person, reopened the path for all people to have Union with God.
Jesus Christ the Son of God is literally alive! Christ is risen and the human race is risen! Christ is in our midst! He was and is and ever shall be.
Living the Orthodox Church is about experiencing the Divinity and humanity of Jesus Christ by joining His mystical body where He feed us on His own Flesh and we quench our thirst for life with His precious Blood!
By participating in His Mystical Supper, our bodies are literally implanted with His resurrected body! His precious Blood is literally transfused to our veins! Our souls are literally united with His soul! His Divinity is literally infused into us! This way we partake of His Uncreated Divine Energy that is of His Father and of His Spirit!
Thus we may experience the Uncreatedness of the Eternal Life by God's Will, through His Son's Grace, in His Spirit's Communion!
We experience the Eternal Love and Life Who is God the Trinity!
May God's Love be your Life, so that you may experience Life that is Life to the full!
God bless you and Live for real, my friend!
Responding to OP: It's more like that without Incarnation there is no theosis. Theosis isn't separate from participation in the sacraments, most notably Holy Communion (a communion with His Body and Blood). No Incarnation, no Eucharist, no restored union between man (and through man, all of creation) and God. You can think of theosis and the incarnation and the coming of the Holy Spirit dwelling in man as being a new-Genesis and mankind is re-created in Christ, through His Energies. In terms of "how does that work", nobody knows.
@@iliya3110 what I mean is that the notion that God permiates all of his creation with his Energies seems to make the notion of an Incarnation, as Christians would have it, somewhat redundant.
@@Simon_Alexnder I know, but what I'm saying is that the reason the Energies permeate all creation is precisely because of the Incarnation. Human beings are a microcosm of all creation. Thus, in uniting human nature to God's nature in the person of Christ, the two are not confused, but in this union the created and Uncreated are united energetically. Hence, creation participates in God (i.e. in His Energies which are God Himself) through the Incarnation. The Energies and our participation in them cannot be separated from the Incarnation. Without the Incarnation, we have no participation in God's Energies. Hope that helps (obviously one isn't going to fully understand something ineffable like this - I sure don't).
@@Simon_Alexnder that's what Sufism is. That is to say: Islamic Sufism is an example of the point you are making here.
I've been listening to Jonathan for a few years, and 96% of the time he is dead on, from our point of view. Everything lines up and is correct. But nothing can help me understand Christian theology.
To us, the energies are the the Divine Names (or Qualities or Attributes), but the "Word," which we refer to as the light of the prophet (which is the light of all the prophets, and all the saints, and all their followers, as the light descends), is not coeval with God, but part of creation--the first creation in fact, the "substance" out of which everything in creation was built up. "After" the first creation, "before" the world was made, "the word" was with God, but was never God.
Whereas for post Nicene Christians, the Word precedes even the energies in their ontology.
And we won't go there.
The Names (or energies) are like lights, that are placed in a niche. The niche is the body, the creation, the word--but the light is not the niche; and anyway, ultimately when the veils are stripped, nothing remains but Him.
Everything good.. but you guys tries to bite strawman. In catholic theology, there is no created grace in the sense you have portrayed it.
In western theology there is concept of uncreated God present in just souls, as for example Réginald Garrigou-Lagrange writes in his book: The three ages of the interior life : "Would only created grace or the created gift of wisdom dwell in the just soul? Christ's words bring us a new light and show us that it is the divine persons Themselves who come and dwell in us..." and then cites John 14:23.
There is great video by Classical Theist, who goes in more depth intothe question of grace.
At no point time any energy if God is created .even saying that there can be a form of a created energy of God is blasphemy .it is like saying the Word God can be just called created .
Theosis and gnosis is the very same, not similar, process.
No, gnosis is knowledge, Theosis is grace given by God, it is a gift, gnosis is recognition only
@@FirstnameLastname-py3bc Theosis/gnosis is a process saturated in grace, yes.
I beg to differ with you.
@@M-i-k-a-e-l Gnosis comes from the experience of Theosis .Also gnosis is a union by grace with God in his Glory
@@user-pj7sq7ce1f I believe you are right, yet I think it is valid to add it could be the other way around also.
Theosis lead to gnosis lead to theosis lead to gnosis..
"Created Grace" is the same as "Divine Energies" if you have ears to hear.
It's not no matter what rc might cope about it. Go back to St. Palamas' refutation of Barlaam.
@@NavelOrangeGazer §, please? I'm not going back to a place I've never been.
"Created Grace" does not designate Grace as a creature. It is the Life of the Trinity in our human souls; it is the same as a "Divine Energy". It is called created inasmuch as it is not an eternal indwelling of God, since it has a beginning (namely the Baptism of the human individual or the choice of the angelic will). It is a relationship between God and His creature, not a relationship within the Trinity.
@@john-paulgies4313 God's grace is not created. It is one of his uncreated energies.
Rome claims their "church" cant teach error yet they have tried to do a 180 on this over the last 100 years after having to deal with St. Palamas' writings again. It's so dishonest but this is the "church" of vatican II so we shouldn't be surprised.
Thomism isn't compatible with Palamism. You have to pick one.
@@john-paulgies4313 there is no such thing as created grace in God or when God operates his grace on humanity. All operations of God are allways uncreated energies of him
That means that they are actually all God himself in each energy
@@john-paulgies4313 in no way the energies of God are some created forms. Dont confuse the results that can be created with the energies themselves that are allways in all times uncreated
Hi Jonathan, a catholic from Québec here. Please consider this :
There is only one thing that is uncreated: God. God’s energies are nothing more than his essence existing in contact with the universe
Gregory Palamas essence/energy distinction is heresies. The Bible teaches a distinction between the 3 persons of the Godhead, not between God essence and his Energy. The father(with his divine essence and energy) is the cause and the source of life of the Trinity, and he is the one inaccessible that was never seen by human eyes(gospel of John 1:18 and John 6:46). The son of God(with whom the father share his divine essence) was seen and touch, before and after the incarnation, and is the perfect representation of his father(Hebrew 1:3). Since the father was never seen, The son of God(the essence and energy) is the one who was walking with Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden and the one talking face to face with Moses before the incarnation. In Jesus : "in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily"(colossien 2:9-10). So in Jesus was the essence with all the energy of God when he was walking here on earth, there is no separation between the energy and essence. The holy spirit is the mode of operation of both the son and the father. Accordingly, the holy spirit is also the essence and energy of God acting in his creation.
Especially since the hesychasm esoteric/mystical practices are paganism in disguise! The light of Mont Tabor (the beatific vision of Christ in glory that saw the apostles) was seen from the outside of themselves shining through the body of Christ, not inwardly (inside their inner self). Psychosomatic meditation, breathing techniques, mantra (the Jesus prayer), and body postures with the intention to explore the "inner self" or experience the energy of God "inwardly" to worship him or become one with him inside your belly is not Christianity at all… it is paganism in disguise with a Christian vocabulary. Be aware!
Well Paul show the energies of God as uncreated in his epistles
1cor .12:6 distinction between God and his energies in the original language text . The energy of God in paul.col 1:29 the energy of God risen Jesus Christ col 2:12
@@thefaiththatendures well all saints say energies ενέργειες in greek in distinction from the essence saint john of Damascus in his writings άλλον εστιν he says cant be more clear but Paul in his epistles distinct God _ Θεός from his ενεργηματα energies 1 cor .12:6
@@thefaiththatendures paul shows δύναμις power as synonyms with energy ενέργεια of GOD. Δύναμις is not the essence of God
@@thefaiththatendures well you have an issue , as you see the byzantine catholic eucharist as the one true eucharist of your church and you participate in it . But in that eucharist is Gregory Palamas as a saint. So how you explain that?
I don't think Aristotle ended up in the New Testament. That is an erroneous understanding of scripture. Holy Scripture was written through the apostles by Divine Revelation. The distinction between God's essence and energy is a way that St. Gregory Palamas explained to Barlam how we don't become God but that we participate in God's Nature, energia, which is the word St. Paul uses in the Greek. It is all God and to try to intellectualize it is a completely wrong thing to do because the finite mind cannot grasp the infinite nature of God. Hence we can never know God in His essence and yet we can know God by the experience of His Grace, which is His Holy Spirit who is fully God. If a person wants to know God we see His nature and attributes in Jesus Christ and if we believe in Jesus and participate in the sacramental life as well as putting to death the perversions of the carnal nature aligning ourselves with our true nature then we can experience God in His fullness. We can walk with God in this life as Adam. Because Christ being the second Adam, man, who is a life giving Spirit ascended above all heavenly places and filled all things with Himself. And we are recreated new into His image, the very image of the only begotten and we recieve His life within ourselves and we participate in His Divinity not having any life of our own because we were all dead in our sins and trespasses. This is the Grace of God that we recieve by faith in Him working out our salvation with fear and trembling all to the Glory of the Father who saw fit to call us out from among the dead as He chose us in Himself before the foundation of the world.
Was the incarnation necessary for theosis? This is perhaps the most important question for Christians to contemplate, and in doing so, one will come to the conclusion that the incarnation was not necessary for theosis. In fact, it can’t be. Obviously this calls into question the very foundation of Christianity and is why the question isn’t and can’t be directly confronted and answered. Ultimately theosis isn’t about BECOMING that which you aren’t, but rather BEING that which you always and already are, but have quite simply forgotten. This is the fall of man - the fall into dualistic thinking and the forgetfulness of who he truly is.
Eastern Orthodox do not agree with your view. In our Creed we recite: "[Lord Jesus Christ] became man for us and for our salvation". His incarnation enabled our salvation. Our theologians argue that even w/o the Fall, God would have incarnated due to the need to reach out to His creation, namely, mankind, in order to bridge the gap and again enable mankind to become dual in nature. But to understand this, one needs to study EOC doctrine of Theosis.
@@johnnyd2383 I am well aware of the Church's teachings on theosis and that what I have said is not in concert with what the church teaches. The church believes in an infinite, ontological gap between God and man and all that is. However, look closely and you will see that the church teaches two, incoherent models of salvation - the incarnation and theosis. By the incarnation it is taught that through the person of Jesus Christ, man's "fallen" human nature is united with God's divine nature. By theosis, it is taught that through participation in God's divine energies, man is united to God and becomes by grace what God is by nature. Yet the Church also believes in a real, ontological separation between God's essence and energies. Therefore, participation in God's divine energies results not in the union of human and divine natures. So how is it then that man becomes "dual in nature"? Not to mention, there can be no real distinction between God's essence and energies. There is no separation in God.
All of these theological issues are self-inflicted results of accepting the dualistic belief that God is separate from man (and the cosmos). Drop that belief and all becomes clear.
@@Aaron-xb4rq Thank you for your comment. You have excellent knowledge on the subject matter.! There is a problem in your line of thought tho...
Formula: God's Essence = Divine Nature is incorrect. It should be: God's Essence + God's Energies = Divine Nature. Our partaking in Divine nature is in God's Energies part of the Divine Nature only, while God's Essence remains unattainable to the creation. Ontological separation between Essence and Energies thus does not result in Polytheism, as both are united back into ONE God under the auspice of ONE Divine Nature. Similar concept applies to Christ's dual natures that are through Hypostatic Union brought back to a single personae.
Hope this makes it a bit more clear. Cheers.!
i once heard a friend talk about "new age" stuff, and he said it's a misnomer, because it's very very old.
the concept of energy work and shadow work is new, yes, but as this man says, it draws on concepts that are pre christian in their nature. you can compose the ancient world from the modern, because they are related through the genetics of storytelling.
Much as I love Jonathan's work, I'm with the West on this one: there simply isn't anything eternal and uncreated which is not also the essence of God. I'm aware that not all folks in the East affirm a real distinction between essence and energies, and there is some controversy about just what Palamas thought about that issue, but those who do are just wrong.
Please, listen to our Lord addressing your assertion with His High Priestly prayer:
"And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was." (John 17:5)
What kind is the glory that our Lord had before the world was?
Certainly, that glory was not created!
That glory is Uncreated!
That Uncreated Glory is given to those who are in communion with Christ, because our Lord proclaimed that:
" And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one." (John 17:22)
For the very same reason, the Son of God also proclaims the following words:
"To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat down with my Father on his throne." (Rev. 3:21)
Of course, direct experience of the Divine Essence necessitates communing with the Essence of God. By misrepresenting the Divine Essence as communicable to creatures, polytheism or even pantheism are endorsed, since the Divine Essence is solely common to the Persons of the Trinity.
On the other hand, the supposed experience of the Divine Essence through created grace puts our trust in a creation. In such a case, the gap between a supposed created grace and the Essence of God is infinite. This leads to abstention from any real experience of God, which is applied atheism.
@@dimitrispeiraias Alas, if anything, it is positing something eternal and uncreated which is not also the essence of God which is polytheism.
Of course, messing about with an essence-existence distinction within God (the energies exist without being God's essence) calls God's existence into question. There is no reason to believe a being with such a composite nature exists.
You have made a caricature of the Essence/Energy distinction that doesn't correspond to the Orthodox Theology at all. I shall give you a simple example. God has the power to create since forever. Such a power is Uncreated and Etermal. However, such an Eternal Uncreated Energy was activated in time by creating the world.
Keep in mind that the Divine Essence is God as He is in Himself, unknowable not only to man but to any created intellect; the Divine Energies (such as Love, Peace, Light, Justice, Life...) are God as He manifests Himself eternally and as He gives Himself to be shared by creatures in time. Through this distinction you may defend the possibility of a real participation in the Divine Life without implying or endorsing pantheism.
You didn't say Kabbalah, but it sounds like Kabbalah.
What are you talking about energies of God are seen in the original language text of the New Testament
@@user-pj7sq7ce1f I just mean the way Kabbalah has God as Ein Sof (if I remember it) as the uneffiable unknowable God that manifests in a trinity and from that trinity comes the "lightening flash" (I'd say that means energy) that emanates (or creates) the realms both visible and invisible. I see parallels, not that they have the same origin or anything, just parallels. But I'm not an expert with either Eastern Orthodoxy or Kabbalah, an outsider to both.
@@Hospody-Pomylui the word ενέργεια is used many Times from Paul it is actually when God is operating .
5:43 - I don't think that's true. At least, not within Reformed Theology. The lack of understanding towards grace is universal, even within the church body.
Everyone who reads the Bible and believes it can see what the Bible teaches. We may refer to it in different ways, according to different traditions, but in the end every follower of Christ is fixed upon the same ultimate theme:
"For God, who said, 'Let light shine out of darkness,' has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ." (2 Corinthians 4:6)
And upon this theme all of creation will meditate and sing for all of eternity, with ever increasing rapturous joy, beholding with ecstatic wonder and praise, the infinite glories of God in His grace towards us through the power and majesty of the Lord Jesus Christ. All of creation is fixed upon Him, and will be fixed upon Him, and He has fixed Himself upon us, the lowliest creatures in all of creation, to purify and make holy, and to glorify us in the Lord Jesus Christ. This is the gospel. This is grace. This is God's will. Hallelujah!
only protestants believe that anyone who reads the Bible and believes it understands everything in it, that's where the heretic Luther went so wrong and why there are thousands of protestant churches today. the Bible is not self explanatory, we need the Church for that. perhaps 'reformed' should read 'deformed'.
Paul shows the energies of God so many times ενέργεια he writes
Shouldn't the Holy Ghost be mentioned here? I've yet to hear a tradition that completely understands the mystery of the Trinity. And this strange ability to be distinct but one. Each having in common everything except a particular characteristic the other doesn't.
If you want to literally see energy, watch cats!
No, the Holy Spirit is a person, not a force. The energies of God and the Holy Spirit are not the same thing
We know that the Holy Spirit is a person by trusting Christ's words in John 15:26: "But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me." Thus, Christ clearly describes the Holy Spirit as a Person.
@@user-gh6sn3wd7v Because Christ describes the Holy Spirit with the language of personhood, and we also have the universal witness of the church in the ecumenical councils continuing to understand the Holy Spirit that way for 2,000 years
The idea that the Holy Spirit is a force and not a person is a heresy called Macedonianism that was debunked and squashed 1,700 years ago. Generally when you try and do theology on your own with no sure traditional footing you're just going to end up adopting a nonsensical heresy.
@@user-gh6sn3wd7v Yeah, it denied His divine personhood. What other source of divinity is there besides the 3 divine persons of the one divinity?
Why does a triangle have 3 angles?
Because that’s what it is.
The Essence/Energy distinction of Palamas contradicts both the Council of Nicea and the Council of Chalcedon.
On the one hand your claim is as much arbitrary as untrue. On the other hand, the Sixth Ecumenical Council shows that the distinction between the Uncreated Essence and the Uncreated Energy is a dogma of the One Holy Church, long before the great schism.
I shall quote the Sixth Ecumenical Council that makes a clear distinction between each nature and each energy of Christ:
"With regard to each nature we acknowledge a distinct energy, that is to say, the essential, natural and appropriate that proceeds indivisibly from each essence and nature in accordance to its innate natural and essential quality and together with the undivided and unconfused energy that is established in the other essence. For it is this that also creates the difference between the energies in the case of Christ, precisely as the being of natures creates the difference between the natures"
Concilia Oecumenica (ACO) Epist. et Theol. Concillium Universale Constantinopolitanum tertium (680-681)
Concillii actiones I-XVIII, Document 4, p.102
@@dimitrispeiraias "And those who say that there was once when He [the Son of God] was not, or that before He was begotten He was not, or that He was made of things that were not, or that He is of a different substance or essence [from the Father] or that He is a creature, or those who assert him to be subject to alteration or change - the Catholic and Apostolic Church anathematizes them." - Council of Nicea, 325 AD
"...those are quite mad who supposed that 'a shadow of change' is conceivable in connection with the divine nature of the Word. For he remains what He is always and has not been changed, nor can He ever be changed, nor is He capable of change.." - Letter of Cyril to John of Antioch, accepted by the Council of Chalcedon 451
"All things that exist are either created or uncreated. If, then, things are created, it follows that they are also wholly mutable... But if things are uncreated they must in all consistency be also wholly immutable... The Creator, then, being uncreated, is also wholly immutable." - St. John of Damascus, On the Orthodox Faith, Book 1 Chapter 3
"For all that has been made, both heaven and earth, has been made in time, and has its beginning in time, and none of them is without beginning... to be eternal and without beginning is most peculiar to God." - St. John Chrysostom, Homily 3 on the Gospel of John, 4th century
"This perhaps has been borrowed from the Stoics, who maintain that their God contracts and again expands with the creation, and then rests without end." - St Athanasius, Discourse IV Against the Arians, AD 356
Eastern Orthodoxy is the denomination most heavily influenced by Neoplatonism/Gnosticism. The "energies" of Palamas are just the Proclean "henads". They fulfill the same role in both theologies. It's the paganization, so to speak, of Christianity.
@@user-gh6sn3wd7v None of those quotes pertain to the EE distinction. Energies of God are uncreated, not created, it is the Catholics who believe in created grace. And they're not subject to any one of the divine persons, so you're not saying the divine persons are changing when you talk about divine energies. Divine energies are the actions of God from all three persons, the things God does. It's not some poofy spirit magic or druidic transformation or something.
And none of this is Gnostic, none of this came from some secret gospel or is secret knowledge or hates the body. Stop throwing around accusations if you're incapable of tying them concretely to EO theology. Right now you're just throwing darts and not landing.
@@user-gh6sn3wd7v Your quotations prove nothing but your ignorance of what the Essence/Energy distinction is. You have made a caricature of such a distinction that doesn't correspond to the Orthodox Theology at all. Furthermore, you haven't addressed the explicit quotation of the Sixth Ecumenical Council.
@@CHURCHISAWESUM According to Palamas, while all the energies of God are uncreated not all of them are without beginning (The Triads). This is to deny divine simplicity, immutability and eternity. Something that is brought into existence by another is not all-powerful, it's inferior and subject to something else.
Johnathan, love his stuff, the exodus series I watched over and over.
I have an issue, a BIG issue with his orthodox take on salvation when it comes to Protestant vs Orthodox.
1) he was saying the orthodox view salvation as some sort of “healing” which will lead to a Theosis, a oneness with God.
Then he goes on to say something like, well the Protestants focus on Christs sacrificial atonement for sin, going back to Adams sin.
I mean, johnathan didn’t even mention the whole concept of the New Testament writers. All they talk about , Peter Paul James , Jude, Hebrews is the deadly reality of our sin and our sin nature.
My point is this, What are we being “Saved” from?
A cold or flu of sin, we need healing. It sounded weird,
Remember, you need to be SAVED from: the F’ing WRATH of God.
That’s what you’re being saved from.
Don’t get all heady into your logismos….with the logee and the logi , but forget what your face looks like.
Johnathan kinda firgot the Big part, the wrath of God is being talked of by Peter, Paul not to mention John in Revelation.
Johnathan likes to use Calvinist’s as a representation of Protestant theology. Reformed is just as stupid. Calvinism light really. The stupid comes in because of the deterministic Soverignty part and the regeneration before faith.
But anyway, that’s not good Protestant theology.
So, read the scriptures for yourself, get some help yes from trusted instructors of the faith as best as you can, but read the words that were given to you in scripture.
Jesus mentions Hell a lot.
What did he say to the priests, the scribes, the priestly classes?
All fancy sh-Mancy with their priestly robes and jewelry and their Theosis degrees, walking around in a temple just “F’ing DRIPPING” with gold !
He said: how will ANY of you escape damnation?
So what was he talking about? This damnation?
Why not, how will any of you not miss out on your HEALING as Johnathan puts it.
Nah…..that doesn’t pass the test AT ALL. !!!!
I like certain aspects of orthodox, more manly leadership, not all feminized, cool looking art which can be used to tell the story, but not kissed and worshiped.
But some of the orthodox theology blows too.
As far as I can see, no tribe has a perfect theology.
I chose the good from each, throw out the rest. It’s mostly good Protestant theology, of the provisionist flavor.
But if I could build a church, it would look orthodox but not over the top like some. And the leadership could be Beta Male.
Have a good day
What you wrote is typical Western deduction of the Bible. Eastern Orthodox Church and, what we claim, original message of the Bible, is different. While West thinks of the question of salvation as of the court system where there is accused, his eventual justification, consequent vindication or conviction, punishment or release, East has never endorsed such a juridical view.
Our view of salvation is to become one with the God in a perfect unity and synergy. Our nature got corrupt in the Garden, and ever since we are all born in such a sick state. Our nature has inclination towards sin and we need a cure, we need spiritual treatment to heal us. That process of healing is our internal battle with passions, one that we can't do on our own, but we cry out to Lord to work in us His magic. We invite Him in our hearts and through that process our nature gets deified by His presence in us, by His Grace. We become dual in nature: one of our own - human, and second one, His divine nature, which in turn makes out of us a "copy" of New Adam - Jesus Christ. This process of Theosis has three stages, first one being Sanctification, second one Theoria and last one Sainthood.
Our failure to get deified, by acquiring divine nature by Grace in us, that inevitably heals our corrupt human nature, results in our failure to attain unity with God. Once God become "all in all", His very presence for those who are united with Him will be eternally blessed state - Heavens, while to those who are not united with Him will be the state of eternal damnation.
Escaping wrath of God.? Our God is Love. He is not wrathful and we see Him as a loving Father who offers to us Sonship, we are offered to be brothers of Christ through adoption, we are called to partake in divine nature, to be sons of God by Grace. That is why it is written in the Psalms, also quoted by our Lord - Ye are gods and sons of the Most High.!
PS: I was too lazy to insert Bible references, but assuming you have fair knowledge and will recognize in my writing those references. Christ is risen.!