Triple-Ace In A Day - Why The Internet is Wrong!
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- Опубліковано 12 лип 2024
- This is the amazing story of the 5 men who are reported as having claimed 15 or more enemy aircraft in one single day of combat. I go through the numbers and discover if there is any truth in these claims.
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Horrido! Fighter Aces of the Luftwaffe - amzn.to/42C7DR5
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The Most Dangerous Enemy: A History of the Battle of Britain - amzn.to/41kD4xX
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⏱️ Timestamp:
0:00 Crazy Luftwaffe fighter ace facts
2:44 Kicking off at Kursk
7:26 Where do the numbers come from?
9:35 The problem with August Lambert
12:13 The unexpected ace
18:13 Downing Tommy in the desert
22:25 Kommando raids over Kiev
Images: other than where stated, images used in the video have been found on commons.wikimedia.org/
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Hans Joachim Marseille certainly was a very interesting pilot. Anime Anarchy did a 2 part video about him. The things this guy did just make you wish he survived the war. People would get a good laugh out of what he did in the presence of Adolph and a few other high ranking officials and guests.
Animarchy History
I am convinced that had Marseille survived the Africa Campaign he would have assumed a similar role as Galand, being judged "too precious" to fly in combat missions. Most have likely would have ended up being one of the founding members of the West German Airforce.
@@nchatz6411 possibly, but he refused a trip with Rommel to receive the Knights Cross with Diamonds to stay with his Jg, so it’s possible he would have refused to comply, who knows. By late war they may have pulled him.
I would've liked to have seen his display in his 109. Meant to have been legendary.
That absolutely mad lad
Also do you know where he got his aim bot from
I always look forward to these vids; they are always well researched and well done!.
JG26 Top guns of the Luftwaffe.
A book I read years ago is a good read. The book covers in part the battle of Britain. From records of the British and German squadrons both sides claimed more kills than the squadrons involved reported lost to their respective high commands.
Amazing research and video, thanks!
There used to be detailed web information on all claims on E and W front. Harder to access now.
Agreed. I find much of it behind a paywall now.
Such detail is much appreciated
Very interesting.
Horrido is a great book!
Two Hungarian historians analysed German victories over Hungary in 1944. They were able to confirm 70-90% claims of some pilots. In case of Hartmann, it was around 20%.
When we look at your data, what we see when talking about the Experten, in the main, is men with good training, flying in a target-rich environment, against an enemy flying often inferior aircraft with often poorly-trained crew, (I mean, Batz's big day was amazing, but Lagg-3, Il2, and P39 are not much off a match against a correctly flown 109), WITHOUT any concept of a "tour of duty".
If memory serves, "the book Horrido" contrasts the missions-flown and combats-entered to kills ratio of Hartmann and the RAFs Johnson. The combat to kill ratio for both men is statistically VERY similar. Bassically, if Johnnie Johnson had had the same opportunities as Hartmann, his 30-something kills might well have ended up as over 300. The take away from all that is that Luftwaffe and Allied kills-to-claims reality are probably the about the same.
So you did fly a 109 in combat against Lagg3 IL2 and P39 ? astonishing !! or are you just a braggart (:-)
This really makes Marseille stand out given that the guy only saw around a year of combat before his death….
@@bkjeong4302 Doesn't it though? The boy could certainly shoot!
@@michaelpielorz9283 What an intelligent and well-reasoned reply. I'm impressed by your logic. Can I suggest you go and look at the freely available date on each aircraft's performance. Things like power to weight ratio, wing loading, climb and dive rates, roll rates, engine horsepower. You know, all the stuff people use to evaluate an aircraft's strengths and weaknesses. If you can come back with data that prove me wrong, fair play. If not, do the internet a favour and keep the smartmouth and insults to yourself.
@@FelixstoweFoamForge If you do that you would find that the p39 was an incredible good fighter below 15000 feet. Get to Greg's airplane channel, he made an in depth analysis of this particular aircraft.
But your are right Hartmann had a kill ratio of 1 kill for 4 sorties flown. There were many allied and German aces which had much better ratios. Which makes Hartmann not really that effective.
The British and the Germans were quite aware of the fact that an inferior aircraft will translate in much higher losses.
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Strange how so many people are in admiration of those who were our adversaries - and sucking up every stat they claim!
Wonder if they would have felt the same way at the time?
Excellent video! When it comes to numbers, WW2 is just off the charts - no matter what we are talking about.
Another outstanding pilot was Günther Scheel, credited with 71 kills in just 70 missions - more than one per mission. He was the Erling Haaland of the skies!
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Günther_Scheel
It blows me away that pilots are able to shoot down aircraft one right after the other, literally one minute apart (but I guess in battle, one minute could be a “lifetime”!) however 16-17-18 planes in one day just appears to be an absurd amount of aircraft! How do they actually confirm all of these “kills”?
Finnish Jorma Sarvanto came to ace in three minutes. He shot down six Soviet DB-3 bombers in four minutes, in Winter war by Fokker D.XXI, which reach same max. speed than DB-3 Bomber.
Thanks Jari, I'm going to read up on him.
I recall that Hans Wind also shot down 5 Russian aircraft in 5: minutes with the obsolete Fokker.
I wonder if south park is based off him
The biggest problem with victory claims is that they are just that.. 'claims'. Unless a victory is witnessed and/or agrees with losses recorded in enemy reports in that place at that time then it cannot be a /confirmed/ victory. How many of the claimed victories are /confirmed/ by independent sources? [Edit: Others have commented on target rich environments and inexperienced pilots making victories much easier.]
The numbers given are normally credited/confirmed victories. The German confirmation process was at least as stringent as the US & UK process. In mass aerial combats there's a higher likelihood of duplication of credits. Credited air victory scores are best used for comparison as opposed to exact numbers.
@@rsacchi100 the problem, as I said, is that claims are just that. Hence Stephen Bungay researching 'The Most Dangerous Enemy' finding a discrepancy between victories claimed by the RAF and Luftwaffe not being even close to actual losses recorded by the other side.
The Germans are considerably more stringent than the Allies. They inherited this from WW1, where there really was no comparison, but also by in general fighting over their own territory.
'Fraud' is harsh: most claims were made in good faith. Two frauds I know of- who invented entire incidents- are Anabuki of the JAAF, and a USN Cirsair pilot, name not to hand, who fought over Rabaul.
@@lllordllloyd I never used the word 'fraud' - nor did Robert Sacchi - so your quote marks are false. Fraud is your word not ours. As for stringency, /yet again/ I point you to the well researched statements in Bungay's book. As for Germans fighting in general fighting over their own territory, while they may have /in general/ you forget - ignore? - the many instances where they didn't, the Battle of Britain - exclusively over the UK - many of the battles on the Eastern Front, Malta, etc. In fact logically as they supported the Wehrmacht when the army was advancing the majority of air combat would be in enemy airspace.
@@julianmhall "Fraud" is in the video graphic... two men with green ricks and one with red and the word "fraud". I am not sure who controls the graphics and I accept the temptation to click bait is enormous and this is hardly an extreme example.
The fact remains the Germans... with obvioys exceptions... controlled the Territory over which they fought, or had visual range on it, in the vast majority of cases.
Your other points and the overall quality of your video... I applaud.
Around the year 2000, since there was some skepticism regarding the high German claims, the British historian Christopher Shores went to the extreme lenghth to try to match Maseille's claims with the RAF records in North Africa.
He was able to absolutely confirm 12 of the 17 claimed by Marseille in his best day. An additional 2 could have been shot by Marseille but without certitude.
The point he wanted to make was that overclaiming was inherent to air warfare but the majority of the claims made by some famous German aces could actually be documented !
Marsaille shot down three American aces in less than half an hour.
The Germans did know that the Russians had prepared heavy defences around the Kusk salient prior to Zitadelle being launched. Some of the German generals advised against going ahead with the plan due to this, but the German leadership wouldnt listen to reason (what a surprise! 8-} )
I'd extremely wary of quoting Tolliver and Constable. They re no longer considered reliable.
Also, Kursk was not the biggest tank battle of WWII.
Hauptmann doesn't mean Leutnant !!..... Hauptmann mean's Hauptmann !!!....In English language a Hauptmann is a Captain.
There are a lot of doubts about Marseilles.
There are no doubt. The numbers are not made up out of thin air. Aircraft lost are not thin air. And the gun camera footage in order to confirm the claims are not made up out of thin air.
There are a lot of doubts about all these multiple aces.
Lets look at 1st September 1942, using Henk Weltings Database, which is very good for RAF Losses and see if we can match 17 losses for that day.
It shows 3 No P-40s lost (I think the database only shows those where pilot/air crew is killed) So we need to check for any POWs, uninjured and injured as well.
Flight Sergeant A M Rowe Tomahawk IIB AM454 1 MET Sqdn Killed
Lieutenant H E Ironside Kittyhawk ET575 2 Sqdn SAAF Killed
Lieutenant W H Brown Tomahawk IIB AK559 5 Sqdn SAAF Killed
1 of them, was in an accident Middle East Training school
A long way short of the 16 claimed P-40s where RAF pilots are killed.
Perhaps the Squadron Diaries can help
No 1 SAAF Sqnd Hurricanes Harry Gaynor Crash Landed, Returned to Duty, Lt Bailey Shot Down Belly Landed, Wounded Major Metelerkamp a/c is damaged, petrol tank peirced (Summarised as 2 Cat 2 & 2 Cat 1)
No 2 SAAF Sqdn P-40s notes 2 losses Lieut Morrison Killed and Lieut Moon Baled out, Lieut Stearns of 64th US Fighter Squadron Belly lands.
No 4 SAAF Landing Accident, Kills Major Smith, American A/C crashed into him while taxying.
No 5 SAAF Squadron notes 2 losses, WH Brown as above and GB Jack who went missing in Tomahawk AM390 and was taken POW.
No 7 SAAF No Losses - Flew Hurricanes
No 6 RAF No Losses - Flew Hurricanes
No 33 RAF No Losses - Flew Hurricanes
No 80 RAF No Losses - Flew Hurricanes - Minor damage BN355
No 92 RAF Spitfire BR474 P/O B Smith Baled Out
No 127 RAF No Losses - Hurricanes
No 145 RAF No Losses - Spitfires
No 208 RAF W/C JK Rogers Hurricane HL566
No 213 RAF Hurricanes - 5 Losses F/O RF Wollaston BP409 Killed, Sgt FG Potter BP499 Killed, F/O JE Avise Crash landed Uninjured, F/Sgt RD Ross Crash Landed, uninjured, Sgt A Garrood Baled Out
No 299 RAF - Can't read Squadron Ops book
No 238 RAF - Can't read Squadron Ops book
No 260 RAF No Losses P-40 Kittyhawks
No 274 RAF No Losses - Hurricanes
No 3 RAAF No Losses P-40 Kittyhawks 1 A/C slightly shot up returned to base safely Sgt TG Woods
14 Losses Total noted. 4 P-40s.
Well the Germans were always in the air and close to front in Russia. With quick turn round times high scores could be gained by great pilots.
And all of these claims are supported by the other side's loss records? If not, then they are exactly that: claims.
These are confirmed kills. I confirm kill is not awarded without detailed report, gun cameras and a Witness. They're not awarded simply on someone say so. And there are records between the services to verify losses. Nor did the Germans engage in the practice of partial kill credits.
Report from a German pilot: while flying East at altitude 12 000 feet, I encountered 12 enemy planes, of which I singlehandedly shot down 17 in just 30 seconds.
Always wondered if guys like Hartmann with their high poster boy qualities were really such Wunderkinder, or rather yet another product of the energetic Dr. Goebbels.
One of the best German aces was Joachim Marseille. He had over 150 kills against British and American pilotsl
Look this video 💀
Lang was shot down in his parachute by the amazing USAAF.
And many Americans were shot by Luftwaffe pilots. It doesn't make it right but it's hard to point fingers when you're doing the same thing.
@@oldesertguy9616 not in parachutes, chucklehead
@@oldesertguy9616 neither did the Luftwaffe conduct Terror Bombing, or Firebombing of civilian targets- Churchill used a lost Hienkel 111’s mistaken bomb run over London that was supposed to hit an aerodrome as an excuse to begin targeting civilians, and there are over a half dozen eye witness reports, from RAF Air Marshals, to US and South African diplomats, who all heard him saying he wanted to do this, and using this as an excuse.
It wasn`meant bad it was just a habit !
According to the source I've read, he was shot down at very low altitude by a pilot of the 55th Fighter Group, shortly after taking off. He would not have had a chance to use his parachute.
What is your source?
I didn't think it was possible to shoot down a PE2. 🙂
Seems to happen to me all the time 🤣
You cannot shoot down something that can't get airborne.
Please learn to pronounce Wiese (no not 'Wise', but 'Wee-se').
And every name before you use it.
Try Forvo.
The marshall skills of the Germans is up there with the best ever in the history of warfare,the Romans,the Greeks , the Scythians ,the Mongols, the Japanese Samurai worriors etc etc, they fought so well they deserved to win, but fighting 3 empires USA, USSR,British and other western democracies,France ,Holland , Belgium , Denmark , Norway etc was just to much, their combined weight eventually crushed Germany and their axis allies, the NWO Globalists had won, destroying nationalism and now incrementally wanting to introduce communism to all,but Russia is the new rebel, long live the Russian federation!!
How doese it compare to Russian loss records?
It really seems to depend on the unit and/or CO of that unit. Some were sticklers for verification throughout the war and others seem to grossly overclaim on certain fronts or under different commands.
I'd be fairly confident to say that the claims listed via post-war research are fairly accurate.
@@CalibanRising it never adds up right?