7 Tuskegee Airmen Facts Everybody Gets Totally Wrong! | Popular "Red Tail" Myths Busted
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- Опубліковано 12 лип 2024
- I've been in awe of the Tuskegee airmen since first watching the 1995 movie about them. These pioneers are great heroes, but sometimes astounding false claims are made about them.
In this video, I go through seven misconceptions, myths, and outright lies about the famous 332nd Fighter group, known as the Red Tails.
Have you fallen into the trap of thinking these myths were real, or do you get a perfect 7 out of 7 score? Let me know in the comments.
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Welcome to my channel where I share my love of history and aviation. I first fell in love with military aviation when reading Biggles books as a boy, then I studied history at university. I like finding interesting stories and sharing them with others.
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⏱️ Timestamp:
0:00 intro
1:05 Tuskegee Airmen - Myth 1
5:01 Tuskegee Airmen - Myth 2
8:35 Tuskegee Airmen - Myth 3
11:14 Tuskegee Airmen - Myth 4
15:11 Tuskegee Airmen - Myth 5
18:08 Tuskegee Airmen - Myth 6
24:33 Tuskegee Airmen - Myth 7
Images: other than where stated, images used in the video have been found on commons.wikimedia.org/
#aviationhistory#history
A simple challenge, watch this video before blindly rejecting it as an attack on these great men. The Tuskegee men should rightly be revered for representing their nation in the face of such opposition, but let's do so for the right reasons. Unfortunately some of the claims made on their behalf at not historically correct. Hollywood movie and the media, in general, is very much to blame on this account. Based on the research of Daniel Haulman, I have tried to explore some of the biggest myths surrounding this interesting part of history. Please enjoy it for these reasons.
start what - listening? watching? what? & where? how do I get there?
It's amazing how films are taken as documentaries. Even these have inaccurate library pictures. Such as Hellcats in a Midway documentaries. I suppose they are entertainment primarily. Such as Memphis Belle movie. Strangely there is a contemporary video of the last flight of the Memphis Belle relatively uneventful.
Of course institutional racism was rampant in United States in 1940s . There's much evidence of this in all of the services. Though I think you have got a good balance in your video.
I think you should be commended for tackling the subject. Not too many are willing to stare down the barrel of popular opinion.
I agree v much with your premise.the boastful nature of America is never a shock to me.sadly since they have lost every war after results are a better guilde than there boasts.
I knew a man Bill Tomlinson who was a tail gunner in a B25 that flew in Italy. Mr. Tomlinson did not like African Americans, he was a very prejudiced man till the day he died, so when I asked him about the Red Tails I was rather shocked at his reply that he thought they were great, he said the reason they were great was that they would engage enemy aircraft but not pursue them for great distances, they would always stay with the bombers. I believe that the reason they stayed with the bombers was that they were not going to disobey orders (no fighters were supposed to tear off after enemy fighters, but most all did). I think if they had not been afraid of persecution for disobeying orders that they would have been more aggressive pilots, and would have had numbers like other units (including higher bomber losses). Be well.
I think that's a very interesting perspective. Were they more diligent to the their duty for fear of harsher reprimands? It's more than possible. Thanks.
@@johnbrewer8954 you hit the nail directly on the head.
A lot of their success was due to their tactics not necessarily orders…truth be told the over all goal of US fighters WAS to shoot down as many German fighters as possible …the 8th airforce primary mission was to destroy the Luftwaffe and render it combat ineffective…it’s one of the reasons the European invasion didn’t happen sooner …until the Allies had complete air superiority the invasion would be on hold …even the bombing missions were targeting aircraft manufacturers and their part suppliers …truth is by the time the Red Tails were in the theatre the Luftwaffe was already lacking in skilled pilots …you can see equivalent numbers from soviet pilots around the same time…hell even in the pacific theater you saw similar performances from US and British pilots because the axis skilled pilots were all dead say but a select few
Or they were just damn smart and didn’t care about their personal accolades..nah..that makes no sense.
Did he know they were black?
I met a Tuskegee Airmen over twenty years ago. My wife laughed at me because I was as excited as a school boy meeting his hero! I was a helicopter mechanic in the U.S. Army. I got to talk to him every year at a Christmas party. My son Charles was 16 when he met him. He was as excited as I had been. It is sad how many people know so little about these heroic American Airmen. I was surprised how many black people know so little. The Tuskegee Airmen are a part of American, Civil Rights and Aviation history. Rest in peace Mr. Carter.
I have been an aviation writer and journalist for more than 30 years. In that time I've been privileged to interview everyone from Paul Tibbets (pilot of the Enola Gay; he said he'd never had any regrets), to Chuck Yeager (incredibly arrogant), to Neil Armstrong (a very tough "get." He only agreed to sit down after I convinced him I only wanted to talk about his experiences in the X-15. A quiet, humble man, very nice.)
But my favorite of the bunch was a fighter pilot from the Red Tails. He talked about the casual racism on the bases in Italy that they shared with white units. He told of how they had to build their own officers' and enlisted men's clubs after being refused entry to the "white" clubs. He also described in detail what it was like shooting down a Me-109G. He further spoke of how their kills, no matter how many witnesses, were mysteriously disallowed.
However, he described all these outrages without a hint of bitterness. Indeed, he was a better man than me.
One thing this gentleman confirmed was then-Col. Benjamin Davis' order that no fighter leave the bomber formation to pursue enemy fighters. Breaking this rule could result in a pilot being sent back to the States. Obviously Davis' order cut into the Red Tails' kill numbers.
NOTE: I found this to be an outstanding little doc. Factual, no romanticizing, accurate in the details as well as the "big picture."
I read an interview of Chuck Yeagar, in 'Scale Modeler', a model builder magazine. Everyone commented how shocking his behavior was. As if he was speaking to people not worthy of his time. Things he claimed were countered by eye witness. But what I really don't like about Yeagar was how he allowed /misinformed , the makers of 'The Right Stuff' movie to call him the "Ace of Aces". A title he was not even close to achieving. No simple excuse for that one, in my opinion.
Yep I in college I roomed with the son of a Tuskegee airman. Everything you said is spot on
I met a few of these men before they passed, oddly enough in a little rib shack in San Bernardino, CA. They were humble, honest, and were rightfully proud of what they achieved.
Thank you for this. My father was a B-24 pilot with the 15th, did thirty missions late in the war. Tuskegee pilots flew cover. Dad said they were excellent pilots primarily, he believed, because of the additional training hours they experienced. This is certainly not to knock anyone's patriotism and or desire to excel. The brass vacillated in deploying Black pilots to combat, thus, they continued to train before being set loose. They banked more training hours. I'm glad the 'no bombers lost' myth has finally been dispelled. The only time I ever saw Dad completely lose it was while watching a docu on the Tuskegee pilots. When the narrator proclaimed they never suffered a bomber loss, Dad jumped up. His dinner went everywhere. He yelled, "That's a fuckin' lie, we lost three the first day out!" My mother and I sat there in amazement, as Dad was a most low key individual. Keep in mind he respected the hell out of these men but facts are facts. When rotated back to the States, ferrying planes, he encountered a Tuskegee pilot who had flown cover for my Dad's squadron. Dad tried to have a drink with him at a bar (they were traveling by bus thru the South) but no go. Dad protested and was thrown out, too. Sorry to go on, struck a nerve.
Thanks for sharing your recollections of your father. Sounds like a very brave man, in all senses of the word!
The stats I read showed that, mission-for-mission, the Red Tails lost about *half* as many bombers as the other units that flew as escorts. I heard the Tuskegee Airmen actually took offense to the USAAFs story that they *never* lost a bomber to enemy fighters. They felt like the propaganda cheapened their real achievements.
Spoke with a Red Tails pilot at an air show and he affirmed your comments. When I related my father's story he didn't take umbrage, just the opposite. Fine fellow.
You just a negative bigot why not talking about your coward grandfather
I had the honor of meeting two Tuskegee Airmen back in 1996 or 97. It was only a brief handshake but to have met these men was a wonderful experience. I've always been fascinated by history and aviation, particularly WW 2 aviation history so it was truly an honor!
Facts may not be the best place to do it, but overcompensation is an absolutely valid way to compensate for both past and current oppression, though doing so with money and land and perhaps oil deposits is a better way than with facts.
If you get to FL between Tampa & Orlando. Fantasy of Flight . They have a redtail plane restored to historic flying condition. Where the original Pilot was present for its first return to the air. (Sadly he could not fly it). They have a video of this, some of his story…. They did a very good job. Deserve the respect they should have gotten on day #1.
@@alan6832 keep holding that hand out
@@coachfezz1137 you too ahole!
@Renegade Urban Media Source I got to live with one of them. My father was a Red Tail.
Great research and presentation. Thanks for that. One thing that irked me about the Red Tails movie was the pilots were presented as characters who may have just walked out of a pool hall, not guys who had to study navigation and engine performance and all the other stuff pilots needed to understand. The Tuskegee Airmen movie, on the other hand, made a point of showing how they were smart, educated guys.
Take your grievances to George Lucas. This film was HIS baby.
@@disruptor109 It was his baby in the beginning. By the time it was finished it was heavily compromised and he knew it, and tried to avoid being associated with it.
My grandfather was a p-51 ace in WWII and he had a lot of respect for the Tuskegee airmen. Like the video, he said a lot of things were embellished but they did do well.
26:00: And just to add a bit more confusion, the airborne forward air controllers in Vietnam and Laos were fighter pilots.They flew daily, often multiple sorties (3, 4, 5) in unarmed unarmored spotter aircraft, and quickly stacked up a respectable sortie count. If you ever find a thousand sortie pilot, it will probably be from among this cohort.
That's an interesting point, thanks George.
Once in awhile they would strap bazookas to them.
But that's more of an exception proving the rule thing.
@@jtjames79 Or they would drop grenades, sometimes keeping them with the pins pulled in glass peanut butter jars, which would hold down the arming levers. When the jars broke or upon hitting the ground, when the grenades bounced out of the jars, the arming levers would fly off and "BOOM" would go the grenade--or so I was told. Very dangerous, but "What, haven't you ever seen a light bomber before??"
I heard of an artillery spotter mounting bazookas to a Piper Cub in WW2. In the Vietnam War, some of those spotter planes carried rockets to mark targets for the bombers. I don't know how common white phosphorus was for these rockets, but it seems like it should make a great visual marker in any lighting condition: You'd see smoke in daylight, or a white glow in low light.
Woe to the guy who gave away his position firing on the wrong spotter, because there was more than one time a forward observer had WP rockets and decided "#*% you, now you die in a fire".
One of my uncles was a B-24 pilot who started at the very beginning of the 8th air force. Something like 5% of the air crews who started then survived the war. The overall survival rate for the entire was was much higher than that because later in the war after we had P-51s the survival rate was much. much higher.
He was not at all impressed by the Red Tails he saw. But he was certainly impressed by the effectiveness of the Luftwaffe in killing our planes early in the war. Flew several missions with higher than 20% losses, survived by sheer luck. The only mission he missed was the first Ploesti. Lost an engine on take off, had to turn back. If you had to miss one mission, that was the one to miss.
Also had a friend who flew P-51s. Very intelligent guy who never talked about the war.
I was in Army 65-69 and there's not much to say about that either except that it was NOT fun.
I had a relative who was a B-25 gunner and flew missions escorted by the Tuskegee flyers and white flyers. He preferred the Red Tails. They kept him and his mates safe. So if you want to debunk the notion that they weren't anything special, the crew of the bombers they protected bought the "myth" that they were very good.
I personally met, and had several wonderful conversations with, former Tuskegee Airmen. The men I met were with out question Gentlemen's Gentlemen. Although all the surviving airmen of WWII were in their own class the African American flyers were, as far as I could tell, high class individuals. All one had to do was ask Gregory Bonington to autograph his book and the difference was apparent. If the training of pilots is similar and the aircraft they fly the same how much different an out come would anyone expect? These were men not gods, but they did a dam good job. I love my English heritage but as a US citizen I feel that the Tuskegee had to overcome obstacles that were un-fair. Perhaps your video does not capture the essence of this hardship, for in light of it, these men did Shine. I love you videos... please don't take this as criticism, this is just my opinion.
The Red Tails were at a disadvantage do to discrimination. The fact that they were "as good"....pretty much means they were in fact better under stress. I want to thank you for your fairness and in-depth research.
"they were discriminated against therefore they were better" LMFAO lolwut
By the end of the war they were credited with shooting down 3 German jets. They were getting that credit from white officers that looked at their mission reports with skepticism, because they were looking for excuses to *can* them. Where some other units exaggerated their kill counts (e.g. assuming a plane went down when it actually escaped and landed) the Red Tails could not.
No, they weren't "as good." In fact, they actually kinda' sucked.
9:45 one of the German pilots (specifically the one shot down by Lt. Earl Lane, Alfred Ambs) is a member of my family. I never got to meet him personally sadly, but yea, he definitely did get shot down XD. I always loved the story of the Tuskegee airmen so you can imagine my surprise when I found out Earl Lane was the pilot to shoot down someone in my family. Love the video, keep it up
Huh ? Wie kannst du so etwas sagen? Spinnst du ?
@@VagoniusThicket he didnt die when he was shot down, he lived for a good 70 years after.... I dont understand whats so crazy of me to say?
@@VagoniusThicket Say something like what? He just said he was surprised
On the whole issue of black aces - the conflict and Air Force to look at is that of Ethiopia and in particular the Ogaden conflict. There were some pretty high scoring fighter aces Lagessa Teferra flying the F-5E was involved in at least 7 kills, where he was awarded anywhere from 1/3 to 1 full kill.
If you think about it, it made sense of the commander's citation being true.
If like what you said that the "Red Tails" escorted 132 missions for the bomber squadrons and they only lost 27 bombers, that's not bad considering that when you're in a bombing mission, there isn't just one or two bombers but mostly consists of 1 or 2 squadrons combined and that could go up to 50 planes in one sortie. Even if you say it's 30 planes per sortie, that's 30x7 days and in total, that's 210 planes across the week and for the week alone, 27 bombers destroyed means that the bomber formations only lost 3 planes per engagement to fighters and for that ratio, it's actually minimal casualty. Not bad for a pretty fresh fighter squadron tbh.
Not every bomber formation was intercepted by fighters. some of the escort fighters were a lot higher and further out to intercept the enemy fighters before they got close to the bombers. so the fighters close to the bombers were not needed very often.
So as the red tails were mixed in close to the bombers very few fighters go to the formation they were escorting. hence why they didnt lose very many.
Problem with being in so close ur resirtited on firing at enemy planes as a very big chance u would hit 1 of ur own bombers and u cant manouver as well and lose the speed and height advantage.
So what most lilkely happend was red tails were considered bad pilots so were told to stick to the bombers while the more experianced pilots flew further away to intercept enemy planes before they got close to the bombers.
Same happened in the UK with Polish pilots who were in the RAF. they were held back a lot cause they were considerd bad pilots as they lost in Poland and lost again when they joined the French airforce. before leaving France to join the RAF after France fell.
But once they were released for action they became the best 2 squadrons in the RAF and most of them became aces within a few sorties.
Only reason why they failed in Poland and France was cause the planes they had were junk.
The Tuskegee Airmen have been heroes of mine since I was a kid, but we do these great men a disservice by exaggerating the truth. Why does Hollywood always feel the need to exaggerate when the true story is far better than anything they could make up? Anyway thanks for setting the record straight. PS - I already knew 7 outta 7 LoL
Brave men without a doubt.
@@CalibanRising Heroes! By any definition.
This is why you go to historians for history not to Hollywood for history
Hollywood history is often a sore point over here in the UK. For example there's a film about a US submarine capturing a German U boat and it's enigma machine. If you believe the film it's the first enigma machine captured. Except the British had captured Enigma before the US even joined the war. All told the Brits captured 13, the Canadians 1 and the Americans finally captured 1 in May 1944.
@@alanclague2333 and don't forget it was too polish mathematicians who were smart enough to lay the foundations of breaking the code
Four black pilots flew for the RFC,
French and Ottoman Empire. The best known is Eugene Bullard who’s life story is fascinating.
Pacific theater pilot’s literally cut several Japanese destroyer class and merchant ships IN HALF if not detonating fuel or cargo with .50 alone. B25 gunships could bring even more nose and dorsal turret guns to bear.
I served on USCG cutters. If you could see HOW thin and subject to rust and fatigue hulls are a fifty punching through multiple bulkheads and hull is one big can opener
One question not addressed is: How many WWII fighter had NO (none) aerial victories? Answer: MOST OF THEM. Most pilots never even saw an enemy aircraft let alone shoot one down. I think this became even more true as time went on. I would be VERY surprised to learn of an Ace on active duty today. Not ability or courage, opportunity.
I very greatly appreciate this "mini-documentary." Clarifying or dispelling the myths is extraordinarily important to the legacy of these fine gentlemen. They were ground-breaking for their time, which should not have been necessary. Nonetheless they absolutely proved themselves. Were they courageous with a fine record? Absolutely! However... when modern media casts too much glitter on the Tuskegee Airmen, and over-exaggerates their success, it allows the naysayers to claim that their record is only window dressing and thus bring their overall combat record into question and minimize their achievements. By sticking to the facts and the actual combat record we see that they were the equal (and in some cases a bit better) of any white fighter squadron that served in the European Theater. It may be argued that their scoreboard would have been enhanced by better mission opportunities; and that is a valid consideration. But ultimately, these men had something to prove and they did it the best way possible, they were the equal of any other squadron. The American people and history should remember them well for their accomplishments. As a footnote: A Tuskegee pilot was shot down, captured, and sent to a POW camp. Later the senior POW officer stated of the gentleman (whose name I do not recall at the moment) that he was a very fine officer. So, even in distress and duress they comported themselves well.
You should do a deep dive on the "Aztec Eagles" Mexico's 201st expeditionary squadron .it was the country's only offensive force in its history and WWII. Their roles were mostly escort and air to ground support so no aces claimed, but many sorties their collective contributions in the Pacific were hard to ignore. Flying P-47s their signature move supposedly was to hit hard and barrel roll away quickly. Not much is known to fully verify their abilities and exploits, or whether professional or brash pilots as both images are thrown around.
Great suggestion. It's actually already on my list after hearing about on the WW2 podcast. Just need to find a moment to read the book about them. Thanks!
The Aztec Eagles were underappreciated and are largely forgotten which is a travesty.
I had a book on the subject....The men who flew were typical fighter jocks, in a great fighter bomber....Very interesting.
Barrel roll “away” quickly? A barrel roll ends with the plane on the exact same line it started, heading in the exact same direction it started, without ever changing the heading it is travelling in. So if you “barrel roll away” from another plane you’ll just end up on the other side of it…. If you came down behind another plane and did a barrel roll to escape after shooting at them, you’d just end up in front of them. This makes zero sense.
Sounds like a real group of amazing aviators who totally knew what they were doing and didn’t just end up barrel rolling into the enemies guns and making up stories about themselves. Because it sounds like they don’t even know what they’re claiming to have done.
Press X to Doubt.
A very interesting and enlightening portrayal of the “Red Tails” and does not diminish my respect for their service and the appalling disrespect they had to endure! God bless them 🏴🇬🇧
Thanks for watching Paul.
Too bad god didn't help stop the white hatred
Tuskegee airmen had to be better than the American counterpart at everything
Interesting facts, I had a feeling that the Red Tails achievements had been exaggerated. But regarding the "lies" of Lee Archer, he certainly wouldn't have been the first fighter pilot to tell one.
Pierre Clostermann, the French ace who was responsible for me getting interested in airplanes 45 years ago, when I read his book "The Big Show", also told other pilots stories as his in that book.
I guess some fighter pilots just have a huge ego.
I once caught a fish that was this big. 🐮💩
black people dont have huge egos
@@NeuKrofta That's just not true.
I saw both movies, and I liked learning more about these heroic flyers in WW II. During my 30 year career with the VBA, I had the honor of meeting and shaking hands with a Tuskegee Airman. I think he was a retired USAF colonel. Shaking his hand and saluting him had sweat running down my neck and back ! How 🤔 often do you get to shake hands with a legend?
I have never met a RedTail pilot that I know of. But I did meet 2 D-Day survivors (Omaha Beach) and a Battle Of Britain pilot. I consider them also legends. God rest all these legends souls and may they RIP.
It’s interesting to see how “myths” grow after its all over, dispelling these “myths” in no way denigrates the achievements of these pilots who overcame obstacles to prove themselves the equals of other pilots. With regards to the Me-262 shoot down myth, the first recorded destruction of an Me-262 by allied fighters occurred in August 1944 and it wasn’t really a “shoot down” as such, two P-47 pilots of the U.S.A.A.F. managed to force an Me-262 to crash, apparently no shots were actually exchanged during this engagement, the first recorded shooting down of an Me-262 is credited to Spitfire pilots of 401 Squadron R.C.A.F. in October of 1944.
I think the point is that their record in combat was very good.
They were expected to be absolutely useless and in reality they were just as good as everyone else. They were ‘equal.’ (To me that is no surprise.) not worse, not better, just equal.
If anyone believes they are better they have to DO better.
Equal performace is extremely unlikely, just as races are hardly ever perfect ties. the difference can be random chance, but they almost always exist.
There is much better pilots. Look up the black sheep. Every other pilot was a Ace.
@@Surefire346 Black sheep had far easier pickings.
@alan6832 Thats not true. The Germans at that time of the war lost all of there experienced pilots and aces. They had young guy with a much lower amount of training and no experience.
I know they were under pressure to be the most shining examples they could be to inspire our people, especially our young by civil rights activists of the times and beyond. I appreciate your efforts to put this in perspective and have subscribed.
I met there cook and nurse on the way to Lee Archers funeral. The stories she told me were just inspiring.
I heard they had the Inaugural inter-service Fighter Pilots contest in 1949 and these Tuskegee Airmen were resounding victors - That Trophy has been conviently 'lost' to time. That 'Contest' became the 'Top Gun' Trophy and started similarly named Fighter Weapons school..
Absolutely fascinating. I love this kind of content. Very well done & thank you. 👍
Thanks Jim!
@@CalibanRising I figured the destroyer killer had to be in a P-39, with the cannon. My guess was pretty close as it was not in the Mustangs as in the movie, and not quite sunk, but no, not with cannon armed P-39 either, though I learned here they did fly them.
Thanks for setting the record straight mr. Rising. These heroes do not need to have their achievements embellished.
I have for a long time been fascinated by WW2 and especially, WW2 air combat. When I learned of the Red Tails, it was the ginned up version and I bought it. That was because I was young. But as I have become old, I have come to recognize that myths make their way into many facets of life, history and culture. Myth busting doesn't necessarily make stories less potent, but rather simply true. And truth is always better than myth in my mind. Correcting the record for these black fighter pilots in NO WAY diminishes their contribution. After all, they did indeed face prejudice here in this country and in service, and fought for the USA anyway. That deserves recognition with no need to exaggerate their deeds.
Very well done vid. Thanks for posting. We need more such truth seeking in this world--more now than in our recent past, since authoritarian impulses on the Left and Right have seriously challenged it.
Excellent attitude extolling the real deeds and not the legends. Unfortunately you’re spot on about many feeling the need to elevate a minority group’s performance above the majority when in reality having equal achievement is still a large accomplishment given additional hardships they faced.
Thanks for watching Matt
Almost every historical movie does this with the protagonists and the group they represent, often with white achievements elevated and minorities downplayed, whitewashed or the actual agency of minorities are replaced with a white savior.
Overcorrections are the inevitable response to those who have seen that play out time after time--whether in movies, novels, textbooks, popular books on history, bad faith academic works or ancient aliens on the "history" channel--and assume its history repeating itself. And there are those who know it’s an overcorrection "based on a true story" but have seen so many other historical figures portrayed as more legendary than they were--often as a strategy motivated to a degree to perpetuate false group stereotypes--they feel it's justified (an unfortunate yet necessary proportional response to create some balance by fighting fire with fire). And there are those who are motived primarily to reduce false and negative stereotypes and/or provide role models to the young thus historical accuracy isn't a major concern because the public good they envision is far more important. Sometimes the benefits occur; sometimes they backfire; and will usually be a mix which will change over the decades (the 1995 movie being an illuminating example).
Yet it's constantly happening in the other direction and there's been a 300 year very strategic avalanche of lies, distortions and misinformation falling over the world that we are nowhere near digging out. The public memory of history---fed though countless mediums today--will always be messy and manipulated by those with resources and an agenda (often those ironically claiming loudly to be the standard bearer of truth, or an antiracist, or will use the ruse of holding up their liberal political credentials as if that's proof that they aren't bigoted and unethical).
Since historical sources are scattered and every minute documents are being analyzed for the first time that casts doubt or disproves a conventional historical belief there will always be myths that are spread unintentionally due to the evidence available. And since us humans only have 24 hrs in the day, have jobs, have lives to live, NFL games to watch and lack a photographic memory (i can't even remember all the Kardashian sisters) this phenomenon isn't ending any time soon.
Damn, i didn't think i'd write that much. If you read this far, the point made by Matt Williams is true, insightful and thoughtful, yet it's only part of the truth. Excellent video.
As a kid in the 1960's hoovering up anything WW2 aviation, I adored the Red Tails but knew there were flaws in the narrative. To pick a HUGE one, the key to Allied fighters breaking the Luftwaffe's back in early 1944 was Jimmy Doolittle's order to NOT closely escort the bombers, but to range out ahead and engage/break them up before they could form up and position to attack. This not in dispute, so to claim as some sort of virtue sticking close to the bombers all the way makes exactly zero sense. It would have been precisely the WRONG thing to do and is exactly what did NOT work.
Galland wrote that he fought the same argument/battle on the German side as early as the Battle of Britain. Jimmy Doolittle ran the 8th Air Force. So maybe the 15th got the memo late. But you only impress the ignorant to actually brag that you stuck hip to hip with escorted bombers. It may be reassuring to the bomber crews, but does them little good.
While your point definitely holds water it has to be added that Galland had to fulfill his part with Me 109s, planes that would just run out off steam after flying a single tight turn. The one thing the 109 was good at was flying fast in a straight line, so it needed room to do its escort work kind of effectively.
Exactly. Smart pilots flew above and behind the bombers or a few miles in front of them. The experienced bomber pilots knew this.
You are correct. Galland himself said that the death of Luftwaffe effectiveness was when the P51's were allowed to roam ahead of the bombers. Plus the P51's great loiter time over German territory allowed the Mustang to effectively neutralize Luftwaffe effectiveness. Although the P47, with two wing tanks could get deep into German territory, the P47's loiter time was way too short to be as effective as the P51 on the Luftwaffe.. The P47's time to shine was post D-Day, when the P47's were based on French airfields, negating the range problem, allowing the P47's tremendous firepower and bomb-carrying ability to utterly demolish ground targets more effectively than any other fighter aircraft. The P47's ground destruct record in Europe from June 1944 to May 1945 remains untouched up to modern times and to say it was astounding is an understatement.
@@63DW89A I would recommend Greg’s Airplanes video on the topic. The fact was that the P47 had the range and capability to escort the bombers, but due to Air Force politics, specifically the reign of the Bomber Mafia, they were denied access to the drop tanks that they could have used. Also, by the time the P51D entered service, the air war over Europe, and the destruction of the Luftwaffe to the degree necessary to establish air superiority over the English Channel for Operation Overlord had largely been done, and by P47s. I can link the video if you are interested.
@@wilsonriley1856 I've already watched it. As much as I have liked Greg's technical stuff, in this case he has erred in judgement in falling under the erroneous conclusions of THE BOMBER MAFIA (2021) Malcomb Gladwell. Gladwell was not alive during WW2, and unfortunately like many modern "historians", Gladwell suffers from "presentism" where the modern historian is looking at the past using his modern perspective, and that presentism flaw causes major distortions, misunderstandings and errors by the modern historian attempting to walk in the shoes of the past. After seeing Greg's error in judgement touting THE BOMBER MAFIA, I now question many of Greg's other "facts", and will now be forced to carefully evaluate his other videos on WW2 aircraft, which up to "THE BOMBER MAFIA error" I had thought were very accurate.
Let's look at historical facts. The P47 had been in Europe since late 1942, and up thru December 1943, had not made a dent in Luftwaffe air control over occupied Europe. The horrendous losses by 8th Air Force bomber up to December, 1943, not only caused 8th AF command to suspend daylight bombing, but clearly prove the P47 was not capable of "Air Superiority" over the Luftwaffe at all. The Luftwaffe controlled where the 8th AF went in occupied Europe, and the P47 could do very little about it, and that is why 8th AF daylight bombing was suspended after the horrific Schweinfurt losses of OCT, 1943. The P47, with drop tanks could fly to Berlin, but after the tanks are dropped, the fighter's internal fuel supply determines how much loiter time is available to inflict damage on the enemy. This was the P47's "Achilles Heel". P47 large fuel consumption, and rapid burn off of remaining internal fuel severely limited the P47's loiter time over Germany, not allowing the P47 much time to damage the Luftwaffe. The P47's time to shine would be after D-Day, when being flown from captured French airfields, negating the range problem, allowed the P47 to become the incredible ground destruction machine it really was.
The P51 not only had a larger internal fuel supply, it was also much more aerodynamic and fuel efficient than the P47, which allowed the P51 incredible loiter time over Germany to damage the Luftwaffe. While your statement is correct, about the P51D arriving after Luftwaffe effectiveness was neutralized, you neglect to mention that it was the P51B and P51C that had accomplished the neutralization of Luftwaffe effectiveness in the relatively short time from FEB-1944 to MAY-1944. The P51D would not arrive in large numbers until roughly JUL/AUG-1944.
The historical facts show that in the critically important months before D-Day, it was the P51B and P51C that effectively neutralized Luftwaffe effectiveness, allowing D-Day to occur in June 1944. General Eisenhower had informed new 8th AF commanding General Jimmy Doolittle in JAN,1944 that the Luftwaffe had to be neutralized before the D-Day landings could occur. Gen Doolittle then informed 8th AF Fighter Command that Fighter Command's primary mission was the destruction of the Luftwaffe, even above the mission of bomber protection. Fighter Command then began allowing P51B/C's to range far in front of the bombers, to hit Luftwaffe fighters early, ahead of bomber contact. Luftwaffe General Adolph Galland, always asserted (repeatedly) that when the 8th AF took the P51B/C's off close bomber protection, and allowed the P51B/C's to range far ahead to hit the Luftwaffe ahead of bomber contact, that that was the beginning of the death of the Luftwaffe.
From roughly DEC-1942 to MAY-1945 (29 Months), P47's shot down 3570+ Luftwaffe aircraft in air-to-air combat. From JAN-1944 to May-1945 (17 Months) P51B/C/D/K's shot down 4950+ Luftwaffe aircraft in air-to-air combat. The P51 kill record over 17 months pretty well speaks for itself as to why the P51 took control of the skies from the Luftwaffe in the first half of 1944.
Im a flight instructor for 29 years. Tuskegee men were a USA national selection of the most intelligent and also great athletic college-attending blacks selection. Way above-average men were selected, of course. Roosevelt wanted them to succeed, not to waste money and time on them during a war era.
And yet they still werent all that impressive. How sad.
Wow, these videos always have so much data to research and analyse! Really interesting. 👍
Cheers for watching John.
The Tuskegee airmen or top pilots selected by them also claim two have won the first top gun competition.Perhaps you can research this claim also.I believe they did win and would like to see a video made on the subject. Love your work ,keep it up..
I have an uncle who's a former pilot and AC-130 mechanic and lemme tell ya, fly boys always tell tall tales, most of which just get told to get laughs out of people but others were told not so much as to lie but more so due to the stress of battles
Superb, balanced, detailed ,meticulous historical analysis and research. Thanks. For this, you earned my respect and me hitting the Subscribe button. Well done.
Much appreciated!
Have enjoyed The Tuskegee Airmen many times over the years. I was excited when Red Tails came out but found it disappointing. Particularly the flying scenes seemed to be ridiculous cgi, video game stuff with only a loose relationship with physics.
Have often been skeptical of the zero bombers lost claim, just didn't seem probable. They did a great job, that should be enough for anybody.
I once saw a Red Tail member at my VA in Gainesville, Fl. All respect to ANY of them. If their record had been just plain average they deserve a BIG ACCOLADE for what they had done.
I’m very proud of the Red Tails. Thank you for pointing out that our current society seems to overcompensate for the past injustices incurred. Minorities are somehow put on a pedestal which pushes the narrative that we are not equal as men. Stop pointing out differences and talk about we are all equal in the eyes of our Creator. Stop racist quotas, race only groups, ignore politics that separates us for votes, get rid of so called affirmative action and stop putting people into groups by race at all. Get rid of it and stop talking about it. I think the people are ready to exist as equals if racist groups stop telling us we are different. It’s time.
Even if they lost 27 bombers, that’s still a commendable ratio. It would be interesting to know what the overall bomber loss/fighter sortie was…
Col. Moyner was a first class bigot, you forgot that he didn't give the 99th a heads up for a mission briefing which made them late, and used this as an example of their inexperience. But he was called on this.
Ah yes, I remember that being shown in the earlier movie.
PS one of the pilots faced court martialed over a pay dispute and faced the firing squad from a corrupt Mexican general.
He stole the Curtis, flew to El Paso and sold the plane
PS even earlier, two Americans flew for each side in the Mexican revolution as reconnaissance in Curtis pushers. They were aware of each other, but never met until WWI
In the same allied squadron.
I think one thing that always has to be kept in mind is every story and "fact" we hear from events like ww2 can get very skewed. For instance the term jerikos trumpet to be used to describe the stukas siren was never widely used until post war. And the notion that only the p51 had the range to escort bomber was wrong. The p47 with external tanks had plenty of rang for escorting and did so.
Facts still matter. And when it comes to history, we all have an obligation to the truth, not to the maintenance of images. Telling the truth about the Red Tails does not in any way take away from their incredible accomplishments. They served honorably, and were quite good at what they did. Thank you for this.
Thanks for watching James, I totally agree with you!
Very good research and delivery.
Thank you. The only thing worse than feel good stories is....lies.
Also, read the book "Red Tail Captured, Red Tail Free: Memoirs of a Tuskegee Airman and POW". The author Alexander Jefferson, personally tells the opposite of the "conventional mythology" about them.
In his book, he extolled the performance of the Bell P-39's they had before being given their P-51's. He had high praise for them.
Also, in his book, he tells the OPPOSITE of the theme of the Bruce Willis movie, "Hart's War", where in fact he explains how he was treated as a VIP by his fellow white prisoners, in a German POW camp, instead of being "discriminated against", he was given the "red carpet" treatment by his fellow white prisoners, because they knew as a black man, he could not be a Nazi "mole".
To differ from this author's suggestion that "black pilots would not be given the opportunity" to become an "ace", I have discussed this with professional young, black men, and I was told by them that they had no desire to try for any opportunities.
The fact is getting to be an "ace" is not something that the average pilot is give a chance at anyway. Their normal duties usually preclude running off score a single hit against a single aircraft on a given flight mission, ignoring the purpose of the mission. Usually such situations occur due to "time and chance", i.e., being in the "right place at the right time", THEN AFTER demonstrating such skills to their senior officers, they are "allowed" to seek the chance to add to their scores when the opportunity presents itself.
And of course, the MAIN REASON that the public never heard about them for such a long time after the war was that a group of them were sour about having served so long without being sent back to the U.S. literally MUNITINIED and DELIBERATELY VIOLATED written orders at an air base as the war in Europe was winding down, and got the entire lot of them OUT OF ACTIVE SERVICE, arrested and sent back to the states, which kept them from being sent to serve in the Pacific like so many white pilots did after V.E. day on May 8,1945.
The other issue about "acedom" is that only a few bros, like 10% or less will EVER become aces. Even in a target rich environment like late war Germany or Japan. Air/Air is TEAMWORK-period.
Thanks for the detailed information.
met the remaining members in Tombstone a few years back. Outstanding group of hero's
Pruitt and Archer were know as the Gruesome Twosome. Pruitt was Archer's wingman. Pruitt was later shot down and killed though Archer survived and died several years ago.
First time I have seen an analysis of a fighter group like this, should scrutinize every unit the same way!
I agree. I see what this is all about. Funny I don't see this type of scrutiny on anyone else's records or missions.
@@haroldborders3749 I, too, am watching this with a high degree of skepticism. Let's see a similar analysis on other units.
lotts have been...well known that fighters over stated kills in the pacific...im sure it was not all on purpose and both sides did it...the thing with the 99th is that its far more popular then most squadrons...pappy boyington was popular and he has been scrutinized ALOT lol
@@haroldborders3749 no....look at boyington..
The "Haven't lost a bomber" myth may have came about as a miss-understanding that they never "left" their bombers on any mission. "Left" was likely mistaken for "Lost" at some point along the line while reality became myth. The 'hungry for kills' fighter pilots of the other squadrons would be seen consistently 'abandoning' their bombers to chase down enemy fighters, while the Red-tails stubbornly stayed near their charges.
No, that myth was USAAF propaganda. ...And it actually offended *some* of the Tuskegee Airmen. They felt that it cheapened their real accomplishments.
@@danielcamacho1913 as it should...
The first Messerschmitt 262 shot down was by a Spitfire Mk 18 Other aircraft to gain victory were Hawker Tempest P47 thunderbolts and Mustangs The 2012 film is so full of errors it's not worth taking seriously
When it comes to war movies, I tend to leave the textbook at home and just enjoy it for what it is.
I had the Honor of meeting and getting to know Lt Col. Theodore Wilson. Fighting 99th. He was at the VA Med center in San Francisco. He was an awesome and humble man. The nicest guy you could have ever met. He signed my A-2 jacket liner. I had the same patches that the original fighter pilots had on theirs. He was surprised to see one like his. The Lt Col. told me that when he got back home, he couldn't fit in his any longer and had cut the sleeves off of it so he could fit in it. Lt Col. Wilson said that he regretted doing that. He had laughed so hard when he told me that story! Just thought I'd share the cool memory of an awesome guy!
My great grandpa was a ball turret gunner in the b24 and was escorted by the red tails, but he said they didn't do anything, they just stayed above the bombers while the germans attacked (he was not racist, they just didn't do anything)
Other b24 bombers said other wise.. your grandfather lived so they did something... did he say they lost any bombers cause they did nothing???????
Why did no Tuskegee pilot dispute the "no losses ever" claim?
a) it adds to the fame of the unit
b) have you ever tried to argue with someone who was not with you, when something happened, but knows all the facts, so you're wrong?
I read Dan Mills' "Sniper One", and one of his comments after being besieged in Cimic House, Iraq, was the number of never-before-seen-by-him people he met who told him he couldn't know what he was talking about, because They Were There.
That's an interesting second point.
I've been featured and quoted in two newspaper articles, and was featured in one segment of an on-the-street TV news interview.
NOT ONE of them could resist a bit of editorializing plus a large dash of sensationalizing.
It seems to be the nature of the beast. Historians have one hell of a difficult job to do because they often rely upon the usual secondary sources (reporting). Even primary sources have their own lean on and accents to events.
Another reason not to dispute it might be if the military threatened to disavow you and take away your VA benefits.
...As they did to some black soldiers and sailors who served early in the war, and came back warning other black men if they joined the military they'd be cooks and busboys, and any random white guy could treat them like 💩
it's so hard because a lot of the information comes from sources that could've also been wrong or misunderstood. like knowing everything shot down and all the events only the people present could ever know and like they could lie if they were dishonest
I want this thoroughness on every group! Wow!
If I remember correctly most ME-262 were shot down during landings, and almost never like the movies showed, in duels, they were just too fast for that but those two Jumo 004 were super thirsty and it was a well thought out tactic to wait for them at airports and sneak up on them
Truth be told.
They were very sluggish taking off or landing. Often other fighters would fly top cover at those times.
The channel "Greg's airplanes and automobiles" has videos that cover this topic in excruciating detail, if anyone wants the full explanation.
The Germans soon realised that allied fighters were hanging around waiting for jets to land and set up “ flak lanes” to protect them. Risky business.
Ernst Udet a German fighter ace from WW1 was shot down whilst landing in an ME262 in the final days of WW2 by a British Free French fighter ace Pierre Closterman who was flying a Hawker Tempest
While I love a good movie where the hero/s overcome obstacles whether it be fact or fiction. The truth is always better to know. Not as glamorous as fiction, but very liberating. Thank you for this video.
"Red Tails" 2012 was not a blockbuster movie as mentioned in this video. It cost 58 million to make and only made 50 million back making it a box office bomb.
Thanks for the correction. I guess I've just being using "blockbuster" as a synonym for "sensationalized Hollywood movie". I know better now.
I recall a USN ace in the pacific sunk a destroyer with guns using an F6F. enough concentrated fire in one spot to punch through, and just happened to get extremely lucky and hit something critical inside. I need to find that story again and verify it.
If you do find the details, feel free to pass them on.
@@CalibanRising something people don't often realize about armor is that smaller weapons Can penetrate if you keep hitting the same spot over and over again enough times. This is actually the same physics used by many armor piercing tank rounds (the discarding sabot darts).
if you pour enough .50cal ammo through the same spot in very short order, and happen to get lucky enough to perhaps hit a particularly week spot such as a seam, and then also get lucky enough to actually hit something volatile behind that, you can potentially sink a ship. given the few cases of this, it is likely that few cases resulted in all such ideal conditions lining up. Yet, many submarines were sunk or damaged to the extent they couldn't dive by strafing.
But all claims need to be verified of course.
@@SoloRenegade WWII Destroyers are notorious for having little or no armor at all; they were made of steel plates and aluminum, which can be penetrated by .50cal bullets. And yes, concentrating fire on on location can penetrate even some armor, but concentration was not wholly necessary when taking on a destroyer.
Yes I've read about that; the pilot came straight down, in a vertical or near-vertical dive, and fired his .50s down the stacks.
Given the Japanese torpedoes used liquid oxygen, they tended to cause significant fires when damaged, I imagine that the fighters hit a torpedo in the launchers and that started a major fire which would have cooked off other the torpedoes, or other ammunition.
It was in 2004 I met one of the Tuskegee Airmen at an air show at Maxwell AFB. I knew they had flown P-40s and P-51s, and had a vague idea that there might have been something else in between. I asked him what he flew in the war and he listed the P-40, P-39, P-47, P-51B, P-51C and P-51D. So that was educational, right away.
I asked what was his favorite out of all those planes, and he pointed to the P-39 parked nearby and said "That one".
The P-39s performance wasn't much better than the P-40, and many pilots didn't like it, so I asked "Really?? What did you like about it?"
He answered that, because the P-39 had doors that opened like a car and windows that rolled down like a car, he could taxi with the windows rolled down, and his scarf hanging out in the prop wash and he felt *cool* 😎
Of course performance and kills are important, but never underestimate the importance of coolness to a fighter pilot. 😁
Didn't realise Ralph Parr took part in 3 conflicts. I remember having a VHS tape about fighters in which he appeared. It told a story about how he took on 16 mig 15's alone in one air battle over Korea and survived getting several kills himself
Benjamin Davis Sr and Jr have been lifelong heroes for me. Read their biographies. Sr had the patience of Job to endure long enough to play a role in their creation. I think I first learned about them when I read a historical novel titled "The Homestead Grey's" many decades ago.
I have Jr., and I didn't know Sr has one.
@@vernonrobinson1685 I may be mistaken and remember sections from the Homestead book for a biography. Have read a number of books on WWII history focused on African-American units and contributions. I read a number of them from military libraries over 50 years ago when I was a dependant with access so memory not perfect.
@johnlowell5905
Just checked, Sr does have a biography written by Marvin Fletcher
@@vernonrobinson1685 Good to know my memory was correct, I'm 70 so I have reason to wonder.
The Tuskegee unit did an amazing job. But I'm not sure they were any better, or worse than any other unit. I think one of the things that makes them so good is modern views on race. Hardly anyone is willing to say they weren't the very best for fear of being called a "racist".
There was a report of American Navy F6F Hellcats sinking a Japanese destroyer in the Pacific--the destroyer was in a harbor and the entire squadron (16 to 27 fighters--unknown number) expended "excess" machine gun ammo on a small Japanese warship and left it burning, with the decks awash.
Interesting. I'll have to try and find the story.
If they where using rockets it could have happened.
@@steveb6103 At the Battle Off Samar a Japanese destroyer exploded and sank because something touched off its torpedoes--the quickest way to destroy a warship is making its magazine go BOOM! Destroyers are called "tin cans" for a reason.
F6Fs had mounts to carry HVARS which, while designed as anti-tank rockets, could be effective against lightly armored ships.
i have heard that a black pilot in the spanish civil war became an ace with 5 kills. his name was james peck if memory serves.
Wikipedia has James Peck as an ace with details of his life as you report
It is amazing how little we understand about recent history, & how much is shaped by comments decades later.
I suppose that it was typical of the time that the US demanded a segregated fighter squadron. The British on the other hand had a more relaxed view, over 500 aircrew were recruited from the Caribbean, many given commissions and some rose to social and professional prominence post-war. They were distributed through many squadrons.
A number of Indian civil pilots volunteered for the RAF at the outbreak of WW2, but the long training period for combat pilots meant that they didn't get into action until mid 1941, first in the Western Desert and later, when the Pacific War started, in the Far East attached to the Royal Indian Air Force. The most notable, Squadron Leader Mohinder Singh Puji DFC had a distinguished war service, but was forced to retire due to illness. He and his colleagues were very badly treated after the war by the Indian National Congress Party that regarded those who collaborated or fought for the Japanese as heroes and those who fought for freedom as traitors. He retired to Britain and became a notable local dignitary.
I applaud your sticking to the facts and seeking the truth, without needing to diminish their accomplishments. People overhype racism sometimes, and they don't realize that often times it was not quite as bad as claimed.
Hans Marseille and his fellow German pilots helped save Africans in WW2 for example.
Many don't know that just like the French Underground in WW2, there was a German underground. Many famous Germans were part of it, many operating from within the ranks of the military itself.
A classic example of what you're talking about is the myth that in the Vietnam War there was a disproportionate amount of black soldiers in combat compared to white troops.
100% myth, the fact is the Vietnam War happened right smack dab in the middle of the civil rights movement and the US military was very careful to keep the percentage of every race in combat in Vietnam proportional to the percentage in American society, if you do the research you'll see that each race was within 1 or 2% of what they were in society, which must have been a logistical nightmare to try to stay on top of for the people who ran personnel.
Even looking at photographs of troops in the field you can see it, what a lot of people who've tried to push the false narrative have done over the years is use pictures of guys in the rear area where people naturally have a tendency to hang out with people of their own race as an example of blacks being in the war in a disproportionate number, but if you look at pictures of them in the field on patrol you'll see that tells a different story, about 9 or 10 out of every 100 is black which would be proportional to the numbers in American society at the time.
I've caught flak over the years pointing this out in the comments of UA-cam videos by getting responses from people like "My dad/uncle was in Vietnam and he told me...", well the numbers don't lie, someone who was there may honestly believe the myth being motivated by emotion but the reality is it's a myth.
As myth plagued as WW2 is the Vietnam War probably has even more myths associated with it, like most of the guys over there being drug there by their draft boards by the hair kicking and screaming, BIG myth, the fact is ⅔rds of the troops in WW2 were drafted, ⅓rd volunteered, but in Vietnam ⅔rds volunteered and only ⅓rd was drafted, paints an entirely different picture than what you've always been led to believe doesn't it?
@@dukecraig2402 ..and the advantage of volunteering for Vietnam was it was a 12-18 mo tour (most of the war) as opposed to a 2-3 year tour anywhere else ...AND one got base-of-preference if you chose to stay in. I know several Vietnam veterans who took advantage of this to be stationed near their folks-or go to Germany or Japan.
@@grumblesa10
A standard tour of duty in Vietnam for Marine's was 13 months and I believe an even 12 months for Army, I think at one point if you volunteered they'd shave off a month, also I believe that changed over the years as the need for the amount of troops in country changed, not sure why the Marine's was 13 months but just as a guess they probably wanted 12 months in combat and 2 weeks on each end for inprocessing and outprocessing, the maximum amount of tours someone could do was 3 by volunteering for 2 additional tours, however with special operations and other "key" personnel some exceptions were made.
But volunteer or drafted no one could be forced to do more than one tour.
@@dukecraig2402 Thanks for the "eye opening" post... I did not know the relative ratios.
@@LunaticFringeHunter
Isn't that eye opening about the draft/volunteer ratios of WW2 and Vietnam?
All these years everyone's always had the image that in WW2 men patrioticlly volunteered in mass waves but during Vietnam they had to draft everyone to meet troop requirements.
The fact is those guy's that volunteered at such a high percentage were the son's and nephews of the men who'd fought in WW2 and just wanted to live up to their expectations.
Now here's the real kicker, America just got done fighting the longest war in it's history, 20 years, and not a single man or woman had to be drafted, they were all 100% volunteers.
Now tell me who America's greatest generation is, kind of makes you think doesn't it?
I can't vouch for the accuracy of most of this video but do have some insights on the 99th while it was flying with the 33rd FG. My uncle flew with this group but had transferred to a P-38 group by the time the 99th FS arrived. I did meet and talk to several surviving of the 33rd pilots and have diaries and memoirs of others. It is hard to find anything favorable about Momyer among these people. One pilot, who was Jewish, claimed that Momyer was bigoted to anyone not white and Christian so I feel that it was not just the addition of a fourth squadron to the 33rd that caused his dislike for them. As for the other pilots they all seemed amazed that the 99th was not integrated into the existing squadrons so the pilots could get the expertise and knowledge offered by the veterans. This had previously been done when another squadron had been added. There is so much misinformation about WWII pilots and planes it is hard to glean the truth. Thanks for this video.
Thanks for those insights. I had a feeling Momyer was of this mindset but had to leave it as an open question.
@@CalibanRising I had a book published and my wife was afraid that the negative comments in it towards Momyer, all made by other people, might get me into trouble. But by the time it came out all involved had passed on, including Momyer. It's always tricky.
I've met some of the remainder Veterans of the Tuskegee Airmen, at the air show in the town of Stead, Nevada. that town was built around a World War II fighter plane training base, it had large enough tarmac and Landing fields, to host an amazing Air Show, I was fortunate enough that at the Society of supporting the Tuskegee Airmen set up a fine display,I wish I could have remembered the names of the Tuskegee Heroes that were there, despite there being in their late 80s and 90s they were in excellent shape condition, find Heroes through and through.❤❤❤😊😊😊
Interesting, my father flew with the 455th BG as a bombardier 35 missions out of San Giovanni, Italy. Engaged primarily in bombardment of strategic targets such as factories, marshalling yards, oil refineries, harbors, and airdromes in Italy, France, Rumania, Germany, Poland, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Austria, and the Balkans. About 100 miles south of the Red Tails.
I was amazed he said at the time "he never heard of them".
Without doubt since they flew often right over the Red Tails field they were his escort. Color didn't matter, they no doubt were happy to see the P 51's no matter who was flying.
That BG lost more B 24's to flak than fighters.
My mother's first cousin was a B24 navigator in the 449th BG in Italy, 15th Air Force, 716th Bomb Squadron who was killed by flak on Aug 27th 1944.
Yep, flak took a heavy toll on US bombers in WW2, a much heavier toll than most people who've never done the research understand, when they see the number of bombers lost to "enemy action" they immediately assume that means they were all shot down by fighter's, not hardly the case.
The fact is the Germans not only had excellent AA guns but they used radar for targeting as well making them very effective, his plane was hit twice within 2 seconds at 23,000 ft traveling around 225 MPH or so, that pretty good shooting and that comes from someone who was an Air Defense gunner in the Army back in the 80's, the fact is for the 1940's that was about as good shooting as was possible back then.
His crews mission list reads just like the one of your fathers, railroad marshaling yards, bridges, aerodromes, oil refinery (Ploiesti Romania 3 times) with missions from Italy up into southern Germany and Austria.
Shot down on their 20th mission during a run on a railroad bridge in Ferrera Italy, 3 of the crew, the pilot and I think the two waist gunners, parachuted out and survived the shoot down but only the pilot survived the war, the other 2 died in German POW camps before the war was over.
The pilot went on to have a remarkable life, after the war he went to college on the GI Bill and got a degree in aeronautical engineering and worked for NACA and eventually NASA and was not only a part of the Apollo program but before that flew as a test pilot with Neil Armstrong.
to busy trying to stay alive
Great video, knew very little about them. Had watched the red tails movie, I enjoyed it but felt it was more fiction than fact.
Glad you enjoyed it
All war movies are mostly boasting, but the hatred by white America was REAL!
At first, the fighters were supposed to stay with the bombers. Later Doolittle and the need to actually eliminate the Luftwaffe prior to D-day changed doctrine to chase down and shoot down. This may actually have saved more lives because the next day, there were fewer. After some time, there weren't many at all, and replacements were not well trained. In any case, I doubt that individual groups set their own policy.
The Tuskeegee Airmen had not lost a bomber at the point of the request.
That film fact was indeed accurate. President Roosevelt himself was hesitant to open
training for private pilots of color. Aded pressure from his wife may have been the deciding factor.
The military followed. Credit where it is due is often easily explained away... regardless of our lineage.
To go further would seem argumentative...not my desire. There are after all, people who adamantly try to
disprove the shape of the planet. Very well presented however.
You know ~ I seldom get soured on WW2 history tapes, but in this case I need some choclate.
THANK YOU!
You're welcome!
When you consider all that they went through, just to be allowed to serve, the TA have to go down as one of the best out there. Tougher selection requirements, racist officers undermining them, hand me down fighters...amazing they succeeded at all.
There are afaik unconfirmed but plausible reports that James H. Peck shot down 5 enemy planes over Madrid in late 36-mid-37, enough that many do call him the first Black fighter ace. Pretty chaotic environment, target rich, too. And for the 7ish months from when the Republic got soviet fighters to the arrival of the 109 squadrons, La Gloriosa performed pretty well.
I did have a read about Peck but was led to believe he may not even have been in Spain at the time. I didn't have time to really dig into it so decided to leave it open ended for now.
@@CalibanRising Certainly it gets less plausible the later in the war it's alleged to have happened
The RAF didn't ever have a colour bar (including mixed crews in bombers) and plenty of Americans joined via Canada before the USA was pulled in at Pearl Harbour.
Were there any black Americans who flew with the RAF in this way?
Did they provide the most effective bomber escort of the war ?
I recall a squadron of B-25's being converted into 50-caliber gunships, adding 10 guns in the nose plus 4 already fixed 50 caliber's, these readily sinking Japanese destroyers with only the bullets, presumably not newer ships, holes in the boilers doing most of the work.
A nice balanced video, I love those war within the war stories, I'm sure Hollywood embellishes all it can for amusement and awe. The first movie is best with Col.Bengamin O'Davis back in Washington, giving the speech about equality and the dreams of a people.
Yes, statistics show they provided the most effective bomber escort of the European theater. B-17s had more defensive guns than a B-25, and still needed fighter escorts. Mission-for-mission, compared to other escort units, the Red Tails lost a lot less bombers to enemy fighters.
General Davis' comments were a classic case of putting his toe on line. It was a masterful piece of not saying something but letting others fill in the blank.
The achievement of all American men (and women) from the first round fired during "The American Revolution" to the most recent shots fired in current conflicts, members of our fighting forces (all races, creeds, and colors) have serviced out "Great Nation" with Devotion, Dignity, Honor, and Courage!!!!!! Forever there love and sacrifice should be remembered in the "Greatest light 🕯️ possible!!!!! As a child, I recall watching a John Wayne movie, which expressed my feelings on the matter at hand, precisely: "When The Legend Become Fact, Print The Legend!!!" In closing, "They all gave some and some gave all."
This as always been a problem with media. They censationlied their story to get public attention and I see it all the time. Watch from Jamaica.
An ace is an ace is an ace. I do and always will appreciate these men and there deeds.
I was so disappointed by Red Tails. The German pilots were cardboard cut out bad guys, and the idea that a P-51 pilot that late in the war would take on an ME-262 with its four MK-108 thirty millimeter cannons head on was risible.
It was such a cartoonish movie, with such silly characters, people who don't know history can see that movie and not only conclude that it's propaganda, but conclude the black fighter pilots themselves were fiction.
Once I realized that, the movie was doing the real pilots even more disservice than I thought.
me2...i was hoping it would be more realistic...instead they just made a cartoon...
The TA22 (former Italian Giuseppe Missori, originally classified as destroyer) was in a quite bad shape when captured by the Kriegsmarine in September 1943. She was hopelessly outdated having been launched in 1915 (Older than any US destroyer in WWII). Although reclassified as a torpedoboat her main role seems to have been escorting coastal shipping in the Adriatic, of which the Germans did not have a lot of. With diminishing manpower, fuel, and port facilities in the Adriatic it is hardly surprising that TA22 was deemed not worthy of repairing. It is likely she would have been removed from service shortly anyway as the allies advanced up the Italian boot. More capable ex-Italian vessels than her were laid up by the Germans not long after she was. It is very likely that part of her crew were still Italians who remained loyal to Mussolini (Marina Nazionale Repubblicana). There were no actual German-built destroyers in the Mediterranean theater, just an odd assortment of vessels they captured which were on the whole inferior to and less reliable than German vessels operating in the North Sea and Baltic.
Thanks for that added information!
Surprised to hear about the P-40 being about to out turn a 109 or 190. I would've assumed they had to fight with the good old boom and zoom like they did in the Pacific.
The P-40's inability to turn and burn with the A6M2 and A6M2 Mod. 11 is a little overstated and underlined, this was also used in regards to the African, Mediterranean, and European Theaters.
I agree, that made my ears pick up too.
P-40 was garbage. The MC202 was way superior
P40 could outturn them at low speed and altitude, higher up its the other way around.
There were conditions where the P-40 could have the advantage, because the engine was optimized for lower altitude than many contemporaries, and the airframe was designed for low-speed control (if not mind-boggling maneuverability).
I can't remember where the cutoff was, but up to a certain speed the P-40 could out-accelerate a Merlin-powered P-51. The P-51 owed a lot of its speed to laminar-flow wings, because they reduce drag at high speed. But they also *increase* drag at low speed, and the P-40 wasn't making that tradeoff.
i dont consider sinking a destroyer with .50 cals to be a "tall order" as this was done in the pacific theater by an f6f pilot and his wingman. on a night raid, they made an initial low side attack, drawing the anti aircraft fire out over the water and then climbed steeply and dove vertically down on the target. per the pilot''s own report, they fired directly down the smoke stack of the destroyer and into the engine room, causing a fire that later caused an explosion that sunk the vessel. i cant say whether or not the tuskeegee airmen ever did this, but it was possible and in the case of the attack i just described, it did not take a large amount of ammo to achieve. it was more about targeting the weak spot in the destroyer's protection to hit something very vital to the ship, as opposed to using brute force to pierce its armor.
Very, very impressive and heroic fliers. The truth is important enough without needing to make up propaganda which, in a way, diminishes what these men were able to accomplish.
As the Grandson of a Tuskegee Airman, you really should examine the source, listen to the code that states both the author's and commentator's biases.... I have a proud and honorable family... I shall say... listen very closely, and you shall see...
I met these Gentlemen in this very video at the 37 second mark. I talked with them for such a long time because the HBO Special I saw in 6th grade so it had a profound affect to me bacuase I was in 6th grade. and middle school is that key time of your life
Dr Dan Haulman is a fellow historian and a good friend. His work is excellent!