Why US P-38 Lightnings Attacked Soviet Forces In 1944 | Unbelievable WWII Secrets
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- Опубліковано 7 сер 2024
- An aerial battle between the Soviet Union and the United States, must be Korea, or Vietnam, right? No, it's 1944, in the middle of WW2.
This is the incredible story of when American P-38 lightning attacked and killed Russian troops, and how the Soviet Union fought back.
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This episode was recounted in Martin Caidin’s book Lightening. The USAAF conducted fighter bomber missions in the area. The Soviet forces had not adequately marked their lines or Used a system unknown to the that Lightenings attacked. Too many decades have passed to recall on the number Yaks shot down vs any Lightenings destroyed if any. I do recall the Soviet Commander stating the USSR pilots involved had been executed and expected his American counterpart to execute the American pilots likewise. The USAAF officer agreed. As soon as the Russian had left his office, the American issued orders and sent the US pilots Stateside with the instructions, the incident was top secret and not to mention what had occurred.
Nice work. Thanks for bringing this obscure story into the light.
Thanks for watching Don
A little side story for you, and if I may say you did a great job on the video and research. The side story is check out the dogfight Erich Hartmann, JG52 352 air to air victories, Iron Cross with Swords and Diamonds, actually caused two dogfights between the US and Soviet air forces. On one, he dove through an American group to attack some Soviet medium bombers and attacked so fast the Soviets did not see him and thought the US Mustangs had attacked and engaged them! The second and if memory serves it was one of his last missions, Herr Hartmann spotted a Soviet fighter doing a victory roll, so he again dove down through some American fighters, attacked and promptly shot down the Soviet fighter pilot who was celebrating his victory! The Blong Knight of Germany is the biography of Erich Hartmann and I highly recommend it as good reading.
Very interesting stuff, thanks for sharing.
The second incident was the last day of the war, and believed to be the last German air victory. Soviet aircraft were apparently doing aerobatics for ground troops. Hartmann shot one down and spotted some Mustangs so he and his wing pilot got out of there. They landed and destroyed all their aircraft.
Hartmann and Rudel were not only talented and effective fighter pilots, but also celebrities of the Third Reich, mythomaniacs and liars. Historians demystify their memories and achievements.
True Edwinson had alot of flight time, but had limited combat time. He replaced a very experienced col.Ben Mason. Edwinson did not want a deputy commander. Some 82nd. Personal knew this was a mistake. When they reviewed the gun camera footage, it clearly showed red stars.on the trucks. Edwinsons first comment to Gen. Twinning was You got to admit general, it was some fine shooting. They promptly sent him home .
I remember the story of Erich Hartmann's last mission at the end of the war. He shot down a Yak that was not expecting any German fighter. In typical Hartmann manner he came in, shot a short burst and left. Nobody saw the attack or Hartmann's plane. As fate would have it there were some Mustangs flying in the immediate neighbourhood. The Russsians saw their comrade's fatal crash and thought that he had been shot down by the Americans. A heavy dogfight followed between the Mustangs and the Yaks.
Several of the Russian pilots who killed Americans in the Korean War had already done so in World War II.
Great story CR. I really enjoy your show. I never heard this before. God Bless.
Thanks Rick!
Nice video. I made one about this incident in Dec of 2021 called "The Truth about the Niš Incident" and it fills in many of the details missing in this video (although it does not have the fancy graphics as yours does). Just a few notes: the Yak-3s did not engage in the battle, the Soviet boarder was well established (that's why the USAAF were ordered to target the valley West of Nis because that was the furthest East they could go without flying over the Soviet controlled territory), and there were MANY cases where the VVS and the USAAF fought each other, another famous incident is covered in my video. Edwinson withheld information, went on recreational leave in Italy and did not report the incident. It took a call from the Soviets to the 15 AF to notify the American higher ups that the incident took place and only after that was an investigation done. Very detailed loss details are also covered with pilot names and engine serial numbers.
Sources are also provided which is a much needed addition to many YT videos covering history.
Thank you very much brother,I had no idea this situation ever happened
Other than that brief bit of disconnect at the add, a really interesting video that I really enjoyed, I actually hadn't come across this story before.
One of Murphy’s Laws of Combat: Friendly fire isn’t.
You're the first UA-cam enthusiast to mention this incident that I know of! I read about this incident in a book on WW II aircraft which I acquired about 1979-1980. The friendly fire incident was caused by the Soviet miscommunication regarding their advance against German ground forces. The error in clarifying distance involved led to the Lightnings attacking and area now filled with advancing Red Army units. The Soviets over-reacted, and called in the Yaks on the Lightnings instead of trying to cancel the attack through channels. (One of the victims was allegedly a Soviet general, which might have explained things there.) The Lightning pilots, taken by surprise, shot back and things went to hell. My book claims 6 Yaks shot down against 2 Lightnings, but that may be inaccurate right now due to new information. The Red Army solved the problem in their usual fashion, by executing those responsible for the communications SNAFU and expecting the same to be done on the American side. The squadron commander IIRC was sent to the States, and from there sent to the Pacific Theater, where Lightnings were serving against Japanese air and ground forces. Very much far away from the Soviet Union! Naturally things were hushed up for the reasons given in the video, but it seems by the Seventies that during the Cold War there was no more need to worry about it, since the USSR was definitely no longer an ally.
Also, a famous Russian ace (Kojedub) had crossed to the American front during a B-17 raid.
2 P-51 Mustangs attacked him, but he managed to shoot them down. The Americans claimed "They saw a red-nose Focke-Wulf" which kind of makes sense since it was an La-5FN
Yes I read about this in Biography of Kojedub this is claims he didn't make. His commander kept it quiet
I heard about this P38 / Yak incident but nice to get more details.
Yes Kojedub was a Fighter ace, at beginning of the war he flew the P-39 Air Cobra,which Americans dislike but russians loved, here is why:
it`s maneuvarable due to center of gravity more in the middle (Engine was behind Pilot)
+ it had an effective cannon
+ the rear engine provided armor for the pilots back
+ The P-39 was also the first US Fighter with a tricycle undercarriage. With these advantages came one large disadvantage. The engine did not have a turbo supercharger, which prevented the aircraft from performing well at high altitude, above 12,000 feet. Because of this, the RAF rejected the P-39
Fascinating incident. TBH at that time of the war, and the Soviet advance into Eastern Europe it's not a huge surprise that there were Russian ground forces in Yugoslavia at the time. Perhaps the Americans should have taken more time to identify their target before attacking it. That error was compounded by their navigational error. What /is/ a surprise is that Russians attacked the fairly distinctive Lightnings.
I'm reminded of the, possibly apocryphal, saying at the time regarding aircraft identification, 'Green and brown, British, silver, American, invisible, German.' Given that both sides knew the Luftwaffe was at that time a spent force, why did /either/ side think the opposition was German?
As for the date, I doubt the average combat serviceman on /any/ side would have made any connection with the date - assuming they even knew what day it was - so I agree with Caliban that that accusation is spurious at best.
First of all there was German fighter aircraft conducting operations in the east up until the last day of the war, that joke about the color of aircraft and the invisible one's being German is from the western front not the eastern front where the Luftwaffe hadn't been wiped out like in the west.
And as far as "perhaps the Americans should have taken the time to identify their targets" what about every time the RAF shot down an American plane? What do you have to say about that?
What is it with you guys that you think American pilots are the only one's who shot down Allied planes by mistake? What's really funny is you saying that in a video about P38's, when the P38's compressability problems were identified early on Lockheed made a production change by putting dive brakes on the P38's that changed airflow over the tail and alleviated some of the problem raising their diving speed, for existing aircraft they made retrofit kits and along with tooling loaded them on a 4 engine Douglas transport that was on it's way to England when two trigger happy Spitfire pilots shot it down off the coast, perhaps they should have taken the time to identify their target, or the Typhoon pilot in an interview right here on UA-cam that talks about how he was attacked by Spitfire's and after returning to his base was told by his commander's to write his report up saying that it was USAAF P51's who'd attacked him.
You guys need to check into the actual records, you'll find the RAF shot down just as many Allied planes in friendly fire incidents as any one else did, that'll knock some of the smug out of your sails.
The Luftwaffe retained some air parity in the Balkans and Aegean region until very late in the European Theater. The Yaks were painted a shared characteristic with Luftwaffe fighters, and at high speed were quickly ID'd as non-American, and hostile since a Lightning had been shot down already! Piloting reflexes took over, and the Americans only realized they had shot down Allied aircraft after doing so. Oops. As regards the close ground-attack confusion, well, moving at 250 mph from hundreds of feet in the air, vehicles and soldiers all tend to look the same. That's why accurate fighter direction was then and still is today very important! It was an ongoing project during World War II, and it was nearly always taught in-theater. Training and communications were worked through over and over again, improved, but there were still friendly fire incidents right up to VJ Day. There were even a few such incidents in Iraq and Afghanistan not too long ago, with current day guided satellite communications, advanced sensors, and guided munitions in use.
@@dukecraig2402 BS Americans are known for blue on blue.
The P-38's were just getting an early start for after 1945. Patton had similar sentiments.
Prelude to Churchill’s Operation Unthinkable.
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Nice jackets, but hardly "affordable" at 700 to 1300 dollars. Maybe if I win the lottery.
They do look wonderful, and I'd love to have one. Unfortunately, I could not justify the cost. No, they are definitely NOT "affordable".
No, never.
Most of us ain't making that big UA-cam $ like you are, $600-1300 is far from "really nice prices".
There are some reports by Soviet pilots of the odd clashes between them and a few P-51s over Berlin towards the end of the war. The Soviet pilots claimed they had mistook them for new German aircraft and shot them down. To the best of my knowledge there has been no verification of these claims and there is every possibility that these are false.
Especially when the Allies Armies had to stop at the Elbe. But what bombing was still crossing Germany at the same time ?
I don't remember which book it was because I read it as a kid in the early 1990's one of many my curiosity devoured. I can atleast say it was one of the books about the air war in Europe. I think it was a collection of stories, American and British. In one of the American stories the fighter pilot telling his story had said there were several occasions American aircraft had been attacked completely by surprise and enough apparently I got the impression they were just considered enemies they couldn't shoot at.
@@Rusty_Gold85 The armies may have stopped at the Elbe, Rusty, but the bombers didn't and nor did the escorts. A British Mosquito squadron did the last Royal Air Force raid the same day as German surrendered. The raid had been scheduled for that day because at that point though they knew the war was coming to an end no one knew when. And to not carry out the raid would leave the Allies open to attack.
@@Scott11078 Many of these same Soviet pilots would fly MiG-15s against USAF F-86 Sabres in the Korean War. Remember the kill ratio was 10:1 to the Sabres.
@@Rusty_Gold85 Ever hear of the fate of Dresden? USAAF and Royal Air Force did bombing missions in advance of the Red Army fronts moving through Germany to Berlin. The targets were usually located well behind German lines to prevent accidents like the one featured in this video.
Yeah vaguely heard about this in a magazine.
You have a magazine that speaks? 🙃
During the later stages of the Normandy Campaign ground attack was banned because of blue on blue incidents!
I'm genuinely surprised that Soviet fighters could tangle with a P-38. On paper they seem pretty close at low altitude, but almost any version of the P-38 should have been able to climb away beyond the Yak's ability. I suspect egos kept both sides engaged.
it had a design flaw of needing to switch hands to shift levers to boost power. This delay allowed vital seconds for the Fighters to jump them. I think the P38's lost the most pilots
They saw their comrades being killed. ("Many trucks being destroyed...") At that time Russia was being attacked by Germany so the Russians were retaliating any way they could. Just like right now. The Russians are not going to withdraw from Ukraine until they reoccupy the five oblasts they are fighting over. Russia is preparing an intense battle with Ukraine and I hope that idiot Biden withdraws all support. And another thing: Europe and the world are feeling the effects of the supply cuts of oil coming from Russia. The Ukraine has no oil reserves so they are all freezing to death.
I was actually going to comment the opposite. I was surprised that the p-38s were able to take down almost as many yaks as they had lost p-38s. The lightning was a heavy aircraft optimized for high altitude combat, whilst the yak-9 (and especially the yak-3, if they were there) were very light, nimble low altitude aircraft. Especially considering the Russians engaged first, and the Americans were supposedly trying hard to disengage, I’m surprised there weren’t more lightnings shot down. Maybe because the Russians had just taken off, and had trouble building their speed?
The Yak-3 was at an optimal combat performance below 15,000 feet, which was recognized by a Luftwaffe directive to avoid tangling with the Yak-3 at low altitude. It's almost a forecast of Cold War engagements between American-built speed machines and slower but lighter and nimble MiGs. Lightnings had no inherent disadvantage against single-engine fighters, doing well against bough Luftwaffe and Imperial Japanese fighters. I wouldn't say there was a clash of egos involved in the dogfight. The Red Air Force pilots were hot to avenge what they considered a betrayal, and the American pilots went to reflexive air combat mode after they were jumped by hostile attackers. Things happened very quickly after that, and by the time things got sorted out both sides were bloodied.
Yak 3's were better.
👍👍
P-38s tried to kill a RAF pilot in a dingy in the Med’. Spitfires intervened and the P-38s fired on the Spitfires hitting one. USAAF not atypical performance.
Those flying jackets are at extortionate prices. I got mine some years ago for about 200 Euros in Germany.
Just who watching this can afford one of those jackets?
Ever heard of the Battle of ?
Barking Creek
I could write you a piece about it if you want?
"A practice round for the Korean war"
This is what happens when you fail to advise allied forces that you're going to be operating aircraft and ground forces in an area that was still occupied by hostile forces. A 60km navigation error is regrettable, but hardly unusual during the war, especially over regions that are unfamiliar in geography that is "samey" to say the least. Demanding Edwinson be shot was laughable. The Yaks were scrambled to intercept the P-38s as it was thought they were FW twin-boom recon aircraft. The Yaks attacked the P-38's deliberately and further Yaks were scrambled as backup. This isn't something you do when you're "certain" that the aircraft you're fighting are allied, as the Soviets suggested. If they were, that makes the Soviet insistence that they "very quickly" realized the P-38s were allied seem rather questionable, doesn't it? 3 US pilots and and unclear number of Soviets were lost. 7 P-38s were not shot down and that number is fanciful to say the least. The brave Soviet Ace personally demonstrating to Edwinson that he was an ally at the end is a dubious dramatic flourish. This story has been butchered by propaganda and exaggeration.
I read that, apart of all, they killed a Soviet general...
should have continued to moscow..Frank Burns was spot on!
Me as a russian i can say sometimes americans just like everyone else makes mistakes 😟 nobody is perfect guys.
Poor navigation on the part of the Americans, it happened a lot, a US General was killed in Normandy when an airstrike hit friendly forces.
Seems like both sides, knowing that something like this could happen, should've taken a page out of the German handbook and put ID flags on the tops of their vehicles.
I knew about this battle
Yakkity Yak?
Don't shoot back!
If you think jackets that cost from $800 to $1200 real affordable - you must be making big time money from UA-cam!!!
The USAAF was renowned for poor navigation and target identification. Consider the comment from the Germans at the Battle of the Bulge. When the RAF comes we duck, when the Americans come everyone ducks, when the Luftwaffe comes no one ducks.
This is a good reason not to do any airstrikes for allies that don't speak your language. The Russians should have been the one going after the Germans.
@*UncleJoe* Unfortunately there would have been no real communications between the Russians and the US. So to me the leaders of both countries where stupid to think this would work.
@*UncleJoe* And also remember this wasn't a time of GPS and I have heard of our bombing campaign hit the wrong city completely.
I was a Bonehead of the 95th FS
"The P-38 could easily"? Good grief! The P-38 was not nearly as good an aircraft as many Americans believe. Like all two-engined fighters it really was at a disadvantage against the most modern European single-engined fighters. That's why it had such a hard time here coping with Soviet pilots who, although much improved by 1944, were still on average inferior to German fighter pilots. It is likely no coincidence that both sides claimed they lost the same number of aircraft. Both sides had to save face. It seems curious that none of the Americans survived. Given what we know about the Red Army, even if someone had bailed out, he was likely shot in the back of the head. This was also hardly an isolated incident. There were a number of clashes between the Soviets and Americans. Several of the Russian pilots who killed Americans in the Korean War had already done so in World War II.
Yeah, yeah, the P-38 Lightning was so-o-o-o inferior that the top 3 USAAF aces flew it against various Zero fighters at distances that made flights over Europe look like a commute to work. Lightning squadrons post-D-Day did well against Luftwaffe fighters when they were intercepted during ground-support missions. The Lightnings didn't even have to fight Me-109K, Ta-152 and Me 262 fighters, they got to deal with knackered Me-109Gs and Focke-Wulf 190s frequently flown by pilots who could on a good day take off and land in bad weather. Yeah, the P-38s were good enough on any given day against a Luftwaffe increasingly operating past its sell-by date.
@@observationsfromthebunker9639 Yeah, yeah, and if you knew anything, you would know Japanese planes and pilots were inferior to what was encountered in Europe. You would also know that the German pilots you deride were on the average superior to what the Red Air Force fielded......so in your fantasyland, why were so many P-38s lost in this action? As I said, "it really was at a disadvantage against the most modern European single-engined fighters. " Logic is not your strong point, child. Go back to playing with your video games and coloring books.
Military History video? - ✅
Involves the American Military? - ✅
Mentions, or is about, a Friendly Fire incident? - ✅
*Video is legit!* 👍🏼
Interesting story this one. But..... Soviet NOT RUSSIAN! Please be consistent.
Thanks for the feedback Mark.
I find it incredibly difficult and pointless to make that distinction these days. I fail to see how the RF's despicable behavior is in any significant manner different from that of the Soviet Union.
@@chuckschillingvideos Well, when you have a former Soviet man in the leadership position, it does blur a bit, right?
ПЛОХО ПОНЯЛ. ИНОСТРАННЫЕ ЯЗЫКИ В НАШЕЙ ШКОЛЕ НЕ ПРЕПОДАВАЛИ.
ВЕСНОЙ 45 ГО НАД ГЕРМАНИЕЙ АМЕРИКАНСКИЕ ЛЕТЧИКИ НА СВОИХ Р-51 СБИЛИ ПО ОШИБКЕ СОВЕТСКИЙ ИСТРЕБИТЕЛЬ. ТРИЖДЫ ГЕРОЙ СОВЕТСКОГО СОЮЗА И. КОЖЕДУБ В ОТВЕТ СБИЛ ИХ.
Forgive me for laughing , 60 miles off course that's near enough for the USAAF. They bombed Switzerland five times by mistake , once when the mission target was 175 km to the north. On 14 /2 /45 bombed Prague thinking if was Dresden , easy error .Not really as the RAF had bombed the city hours earlier during the night setting the place alight with smoke being visible over 50 miles distant. But the P-38 Americans favorite aircraft , great in the Pacific but very poor in Europe , got a real kicking in June 1944 . Target Ploesti , 66 Lightnings with half carrying bombs , the others escorts . Lost 23 of their number to the defenders .
The Yanks are experts at friendly fire incidents
True, every war the US has fought in their Pilots have killed allied forces. The most recent was the Gulf war when US A10's attacked British Army infintry units killing British troops. Nothing happened to the pilots ofcourse.
@M Fuller the first planes shot down by Spitfires were British. Every country has that happen. Even Germany.
100% Its their style.
@@sicpuppy9435 mistakes happened. Both sides are Allies but fight two different conflict
Russian "Allies".Sure they were.
Why do you say lootenant like a Yankified Brit?
Easy. It's a video about American airmen, so you should use their pronunciation of the ranks. I use the appropriate one for British ranks, and so on. Even in Russian its "lootenant".
@@CalibanRising I believe you did use lootenant in reference to Russians, I am sure you didn't say Leytenánt now did you, the correct pronunciation for that is close but would actuually be luten as in gluten and nont in the same way the French would say nant and so luten-nont.
As for should use it in reference to Americans? No, not really, I never hear American youtubers calling British ones leftenant., but I do hear most Brits use the British way of speaking, sadly I do also hear a lot more Brits these days using American words and phrases rather than their own Mother tongue like period and get go.
@@wirralnomad Honestly mate after 15 years teaching English around the world I think there are better things to worry about. As long as we understand each other. I'll speak British English to my family and American English to my American friends and those who learnt that dialect. It's not a big deal really. 😀
The Americans paid way less of a price than they should've. 30 soldiers killed by their own mistake.
Seeing as what the soviet union was and became, it wasn't near enough.
Ive seen stories of Americans bombing Switzerland . So their navigation skills are not high enough to rule out mistakes. Follow enough stories and the US are always making mistakes all over the place. Follow stories of UK and Commonwealth its hard to find them
Really now? Nice to see the channel owner giving this idiotic comment a
Typical Yanks, friendly fire as usual!
American Luftwaffe strikes again.
The real shame is that the P-38s were not more effective. Patton was correct
Mistaking the Russian truck convoy for Germans is understandable enough, but there's just no way that American pilots should have been able to confuse Russian Yaks for any sort of German fighter planes. Plane identification was something that all WWII air forces were constantly drilled on and were quite good at. My dad told me that even Americans kids were expert plane spotters during the war years. And, sure, the language barrier between the Russians and their allies was a huge problem, but most Russian planes didn't have radios anyway and had therefore worked out other ways of signaling their identity. There is something very wrong with this story that no amount of "fog of war" excuses can possibly explain.