Uncle Tony you are right when you say forged steel is springy. I play golf and the cheap irons they use to make in the eighties were cast. I broke a couple irons with pure hits at the hosel.They make forged irons and I have never had one break at the hosel. Forged steel has rebound or springy properties and is far better whether in your crank or golf club.
And Tony demonstrates why "this is their lightest cast crank by about 20 lbs" and "the object is to see how much power we can get from a normally aspirated slant 6" isn't a combo for the feint of heart, lol
I have never really concerned myself with cast vs. forged crank because most of the time a cast crank is just fine. But this definitely opens my eyes to the difference. I'd say any extreme use hipo engine should always have a forged crank.
There s a reason Chevy small block car engines before '67 all had forged cranks (no matter how lo-perf) and the small block truck engines all had cast ones. The surface of a "white" forged shaft is MUCH softer and will wear out from dirty oil (or even cold weather starting) 10X faster. The green nitriding that GM did to really hi-perf small and big block forged shafts helped a lot and they would stand abrasion about 1/3rd as well as cast. But In all the years of having an automotive machine shop and selling new GM engine parts I NEVER SAW A TRULY STRAIGHT GREEN CRANK. Some were almost straight but most were out by a thousandth if supported front and rear mains then indicating on the middle (#3) one. Old big-journal Pontiac cast shafts had their faults - but they look to me to be designed beefy to be made out of cast iron. Little known is a lot of GM trucks came with Pontiac not Chevy engines. (You can still find lots of cast iron Pontiac distributors with tachometer drives for that reason.) I have instrumented the oil filter bypass valves in Chevy and Pontiac engines and even with nice hot 10w-40 oil by the time the engine was turning 4500 rpm it was already beginning to bypass dirty oil around the oil filter because of it's restriction. Then we ran into some el cheapo oil filters that amazingly claimed 2 micron filtration and the things flowed with very little restriction ! Even at 6500 rpm with a sump full of straight SAE 30 wt. the block's filter bypass valve didn't open ! So we cut one of the dogs apart. The oil filtration element was paper of course - but the element was held on to the flange by a wimpy coil spring that let the element come up off a rubber washer and bypass internally. So much for "full flow" oil filtration. Smoky Yunick (R.I.P.) always said to remote-mount four giant HYDRAULIC system oil filters on a manifold in parallel and then plug the block-mounted bypass. It was the only way to get full filtration with cold SAE 50 wt. at 7500 rpm. I am starting to think those cleanable oil filters with metal screens similar to aircraft engines might just be the thing for high performance. The oil isn't ever super finely filtered - but they might just "catch the big stuff" at all times, all rpms. I will let you figure out how the old toilet paper roll filters behaved . . .
@@timothybayliss6680 oil pressure on this engine ran at least 40 psi...at idle I mean. One fella told me there was something wrong with my gauge. Do you think these may have more pressure due to the smaller diameter journal? I was 16 when I had this, in a 56 Chev 210. Had a nice lope to it. : - ) Turbo 400 tranny.
@@robjones8733 the smaller journal means less oil seepage but its pretty minimal. Mains are 2.3 instead of 2.45 and rods are 2 instead of 2.1. Thats only like 5% smaller bearings. 40psi hot idle is lots but if it was 40psi at 2500rpm as well i wouldnt have worried about it. If the gauge was showing 100psi at 2500rpm i would assume the gauge was bad.
You are my favorite automotive channel anywhere always have been since day one when you taught us all that nothing is lighter than a hole. Keep up the good work I love your content.
In Australia we have the inline 6 Ford "Barra" which was released in both NA and turbocharged form. A 4V OHC with hydraulic tappets for those of us who hate adjusting valve clearances. It's a good smooth inline 6 with 360HP in stock form while mildly tuned versions with an aftermarket exhaust and upgraded valve springs easily see the mid 400HP levels at the rear wheels. With an upgraded turbo 600 to 750HP is easily achieved but there are some over 2,000HP at the rear wheels but that costs real money. Theres a Shelby 350 on UA-cam using the Barra 6 and he gets over 900 at the wheels.
He didn't break down. This is called sorting through a new combination...a very unorthodox one at that. If you had any actual experience yourself you would recognize the level of professionalism shown in examples like this one. The difference between UT and most other guys is that he shows and explains what most others ignore, gloss over and try to tide
Please. Ring it with a hammer, like you were saying in previous videos. I want to hear what you were going on about. Good luck with the audio. You could use directional mics. And an audio processor. But hell, I’m jus a radio station engineer when I’m not rippin rubber on my cheap Dodge.
I have never see someone trash so many motors at such low power levels in such a short amount of time. Every motor you've built has shit itself in some kinda way
Oil pressure dropping to zero is good cause for a time out. This vid isn't so much about the crank [an unfortunate statistic], but what to do so the oil pump will never lose prime. Solve the oil pan/pickup/baffle issue, and he could get away with sticking with a cast crank. An extra 2 qts capacity is a good starting point I think.
I have heard that so many times. My friend had a crank literally detonate is his sb Ford. He said and I quote "the car pulled harder than it ever had, the blew up".
I love uncle Tony. In his experience he's forgot more most people will ever know. He definitely knows his stuff. His episode about cast versus forged cranks was really enlightening. And yes.. always follow your gut. Lol
Tony, I'm a big fan and have never commented on any of your videos before. I'm doing so now because I think I can further define the difference between a cast crank and a forging. Imagine you could grow the branch of a tree in the shape of a crankshaft. Imagine the grain of the wood running continuously from one end of the crank to the other. Of course, single grains do not run the entire length of the crank but the elongated grains are kind of a "bundle" and offer more resistance to failure. That is a forging. Now, imagine poring a bunch of glue coated BB's into a crank case shaped mold. The strength of the resultant crank is dependent upon the strength of the glue. There is no long grain or cross grain as in wood, or as in a forging. That is a casting. By the way, I think the crack developed due to localized overheating when the bearing spun. A small area actually got red hot and then cooled fast enough to actually quench and produce an untempered structure that is very brittle. Thanks for what you do.
@@livewire2759 those guys are fun. I have watched them before. I just watched the crankshaft video. Pretty crazy amount of work they put in. They were doomed to fail counting on glue. I agree a 1 piece would work for awhile. Thanks for the suggestion
This was an excellent episode!!! Yes, forged parts are definitely able to take more abuse than cast parts... Crankshaft are extremely high stressed items in ANY reciprocating engine... At the expense of maybe another 15-to 20 pounds of weight, the forged cranks will be worth their weight in GOLD, because they often avert catastrophic engine failures when being used hard... That can be VERY expensive & time consuming to repair... There is a reason that Chrysler equipped many of their p/u trucks, motor home engines, muscle cars , with Forged Cranks... Much tougher, because of the continuous / elongated grain structure of the steel that was slammed into shape with the use of a drop hammer when it was red hot... Castings have short, random grains of metal internally, that took shape when it was poured into a mold. Cactings are very cost effective from a manufacturing standpoint, but they have nowhere close to the toughness, and resilience of forgings... I'll have mine forged, please!!!
Substandard parts resulting in substandard results. If young guys follow your path they will get discouraged is my belief. Put in good parts will lead to success. 59 year old Mopar guy
Had a 70s pontiac 400 that still ran fine with a cracked main journal for a few weeks, I had a loud ticking that I thought was an exhaust leak, I was going to stick a rebuilt motor in the car anyway and when I checked out the old engine the crank came out in 2 pieces, split was horizontal in 2 overlapping halves I still cant believe it still ran and never spun the bearing.
That's amazing I dont see it happening but I suppose its. Possible so it turned the whole thing and was to the point Of almost not doing that but when you removed it then it finally broke in half is that what your saying happened again amazing I've run cast cranks in pontiacs stock bottom ends abused them to death amd never had any major issues other than one time doing donuts in a wet parking lot half shitfaced w girls in the back seat well let's just say the oil all splashed to the side of the pan like Tony's situation and starved the bearings furthest from the pump of oil and yep spun no 1 amd 2 rod bearings amd the front mains did not look very happy either so live amd learn I went amd got another 400 out of the boneyard for the usual 200 bucks back then gave it the usual krylon rebuild and good hei w good wires coil and advance setup and fast for cheap was my favorite saying lots and lots of camaors and rustangs were left scratching their heads going wtf that Old beater four door Ventura just made my 2000 dollar sbc I just had built look like it was an old tired six cylinder wtf well it's all torque and gears 373 :1 limited slip 12 bolt I forgot to mention always went from beater to beater as long as it had leaf springs and of course back then slapper or traction bars were what we had and they worked well I can't remember any of them after the bars were on having an issue w axle wrap or wheel hop another good trick that Gm used later on in the v6 s10 stick was a third shock in the back when they are good and not worn out they work great too and who's to say it has to be a shock why not solid that would never let it wrap at all
@@glennmanchester5335 I have seen the same thing on many type 1 volkswagens and one small block Chevrolet. The culprit is almost always dieseling after turning off the ignition.
UT what if you tap the crank with a hammer to hear it .. just to hear the sound it makes as a plumber I use to tap a case iron pipe after cutting it to hear if it has a crack in it..
Fords 352, 390, 406 and early 427 Nascar engines all ran cast cranks and they went 500 miles flat out.......Bob Glidden , Don Nickelson and Gaap and Roush used cast cranks in pro stock 351's at very high rpm and they survived. Cast cranks work.....
Yes sir. I think Tony is meaning that if something goes south…. A forged crank would hold up better. I have always used cast no problems knock on wood.
My first car was a $100.00 61 MG Midget. The guy said if you want a forgiving car, buy a chev or ford. He was right, I spent more time under it than in it. I was 25 miles from home when I heard a bad knocking while on the gas. Drove it home and took the engine apart the next day and the crankshaft came out in two pieces. But I only my self to blame, I never drove it under 80MPH on the hiway.
my brother had a 1974 gold duster with a slant six nothing but problems would stall out making a turn and always had to carry ballast resisters in the glove box
I realy think a forged crank is appropriate over a cast replacment, im betting plan z runs Way stronger than planed for and you kinda leave no room for say...Nitrous , blower ect..
He would have to start from scratch the rod bearings and main bearings are much bigger in a forged crank /6. I'm sure eventually he will switch it tho. I'm vary curious to see how far he will push this.
This is the one thing I would not gamble on. It's forged 100% of the time. Yeah its 20lbs. heavier but, it's way more durable. A true race car has a forged crank.
Uncle Tony's Garage: Eh Uncle T, can you do a video on explaining the difference between a cast and a forged crankshaft? The whole process of making crankshafts. I think some of your viewers would enjoy it. Cheers, :-)
When he says "cast", he means cast IRON, which is the main ingredient in STEEL, but not the only one. In a cast crank, there is a mold, shaped like a crank. Molten iron is poured into it and allowed to cool. In a forged crank, there are upper and lower dies, and a hot steel bar is HAMMERED into shape between the dies. Steel is stronger and more flexible than cast iron, so it can withstand some twisting and bending. It has small amounts of other metals in it, like chromium, nickel, molybdenum, boron, etc. Different mixtures make different kinds of steel. The aftermarket also offers cast STEEL cranks, which slot between cast iron and forged steel, in both strength and cost.
There are good explanations of cast VS forged cranks on the "driving 4 answers" channel. He has good stuff on pistons and rods as well. The guy also goes into the balance of various engine configurations in a detailed way which is very informative.
Improving the sump and pickup is important. Adding an accumulator ("Accusump") is good insurance - my opinion is that it would have probably saved the bearings from spinning.
@Mark Morland, That is interesting... I have heard of oil sumps designed for intense use, moving oil pickups that follow where the oil flows, 'dry' sump oil systems, but until now-I have never heard of storing oil under pressure using an accumulator... That would be a very good way to insure a temporary source of engine oil to the galleys, in case the pump inlet gets clogged or the oil is not near the pickup...
Do a comparison on a good crank and a cracked crank by tapping on it to make it ring. I call it ringing the bell but people say they tap on it to make it ring. The cracked crank will not ring.
Love your open and frank discussion of problems but am surprised at a veteran guy making basic shortcomings like this, I have read so many articles on drag oil pans in mags for decades and decades and be surprised if you haven't done or contributed to some in the past, so what gives, from these articles I have designed and built many including on circle track motors because of lack of funds over the years and even I know not having a deep baffled pan is recipe for disaster, where was the instinct to have an adequate oil pan ?
On average, with all else being equal, a cast crank of 80-90% nodularity without extreme forces will live as long as a forged one to about 6500 r.p.m. repeatedly. But why take a chance if you have the option.
Litteraly every motor iv seen built on this channel over like 2 years never stays together....then we see lengthy videos on o its the cam manufacturer....then just like this he posted videos checking cranks with a hammer and if it rang like a bell it was good ....now it's got a crack ....MUST HAVE BEEN THE BEARING MANUFACTURER!!!!!
i had a slant 6 years ago that broke the snout off the crank right past the front main bearing,and another one that i had to shim one side of the rear main seal to get it to stop leaking,after 2 or 3 new seals i pulled engine and shimmed one side of rear main seal with some copper wire.after 2 1600 mile trips still not leaking,sold after that
My dad bought a brand new Valiant in 1968. It leaked oil from day 1. Numerous trips to the dealer and it still leaked oil. He gave up and just drive the thing
Thank You UT,for illustrating the "real world" situations where (and why) a cast crank would fail where a forged might not. I had a cast crank 318 in a ratrod with a homemade bellcrank type throttle & three dueces. I momentarily blipped the throttle while in Park just to clear it out,the bellcrank turned wrong side out,forcing all three carbs WOT. The tach revved to 9000 before i could shut it off but it seemed ok except all three fan belts were turned on their back. Disconnected linkage & restarted it but had vibration so i cut it off. Upon teardown i found crank snout completely severed from the remainder but otherwise looked completely normal !
Very strange place... and propagation direction "across" the journal for that crack ? A Torsional failure would present along the root of the undercut radius Filet on a Mopar Crank of that vintage.... NOT "across" as seen, indicating that crack is strictly Heat/Expansion related and probably confined to the surface material ? But I will digress to more personal / better visual inspection... Nonetheless, That Bearing spun from inadequate vertical bearing clearance....it got HOT @ rpm and spun..... remember, Bearings only cool by new fresh Oil coming IN.... meaning the Oil already there needs to be able to get OUT first to allow the new/cooler Oil IN !!! With 'P' eccentricity Bearings..... especially as you move further undercut with repeated regrinding.... make damn sure they grind the Journals to the LOWSIDE of the spec this time out !!! Put the bearing Vertical Bearing Oil clearance on the CRANK by grinding it to lowside/small side of spec !.... so you can maintain Good Bearing "Crush" when ReSizing the Rod Big End also closer to lowside of spec, and still have adequate vertical Oil Clearance on the bearing. Cast Versus Forged Crank in this failure scenario (machining in-experience for HP engines)..... would have made NO difference ! You are NOT an engine builder Tony.... you are an engine ASSEMBLER, but NOT versed nor competent with the "machining" aspects of Performance Engines. "Stock".... or within "Spec" when it comes to machining is a recipe for continued disaster ..... re-read what I posted above, it's free.
For home-built, think it should be Forged and Iron/Iron all day long. 20LBs, hell I have seen a 40 Lb disparity in drivers. The old adage: over-built might be strong enough, applies! Sure you have already covered this, but containing the slosh w/ a more rearward sump may help jolting off the Line?
Its not supposed to work, im going to make it work, well damn it didnt work and heres why... UTG in a nutshell... Uncle Tony reliving his his experiences for everyone elses benefit. And its fun. Good judgement comes from experience, and most experience comes from bad judgement...
Tony take that boat anchor cast crankshaft and trash the whole idea,if you are going to run normally aspirated,lighten the engine drastically,trim the stock steel crank and use super lightweight rods and pistons,take the stress off the spinning weight,do this,those cast cranks are grocery getter pieces,revs should stay below 4200 to be safe for a grocery engine,the engine has probably the worst head every made,intake and exhaust same side,due to necessity of the slant for hood clearance was a designers nightmare,1.70/1.44 valves is something for a garden tractor,make it light,make it scream,eliminate the weight of the swinging pieces,what the hell its an experiment anyway,right,lets experiment,there is a reason why this engine screams with a turbo charger on it,it overcomes the design flaws,quickly,the engine was built for durability,i've built hundreds of them for yellow cab in the 70's and 80's,theyd go 330 k stock,never had lower end problems with any of them,i'd build up 10 of them and then install them,i turned the cranks myself as i didn't trust anyone to do it,for stock running i'd cut them to .00017 oil clearance on mains and rods,lighten the hell out of it,then buzz it
Oil pressure is your friend...I'd open the bearing clearance and run 20-W50 and an Accusump...tool to cut the filter apart is cheap insurance...and angle the front of that deeper sump forward at the bottom...
cracked cranks has killed some of my plans before, henceforth adding to the 30 or more engines I have apart right now. All these parts I haul around may be no good...Arrrgh, damn that magniflux guy. Thanks Uncle Tony
Wow. Thank you for this info. I’m building a 69 Cuda with a 360 that dynoed at 532hp, stock stroke and cast crank. It will be just a street car that I’ll rip on here and there. Probably won’t ever take it to the track. This helps me to be a little more at ease but also aware of the limitations of my cast crank.
I get it, as I had a 1979 Trans Am with the 403 Oldsmobile engine that has the windowed area around the main bearings. Built that engine and it just love to run hard and never failed on me. The bore and stroke worked really well for torque and rpm's. Sometimes you just got to push the limits.
There's a few methods of hardening you can try if u need that extra bit of insurance and can't go forged. Thanks for the video! I've run cast stuff in some odd builds in the past but never pushed my luck. Interesting to see what it looks like right before catastrophic failure(Windows in engine blocks)
The machine shop that is doing my unmolested 1965 383 is loving it. He told me he does a lot a ford n chevy stuff but not too much mopar. He got a mopar honing plate even. He is now flat out in love with original mopar go fast stuff. He couldn't believe the block was to be bored and honed up side down and found out why. He told me he is basically blue printing what he has done. Mainly for hopeful future reference, even the back cutting of the valves.
Tony what did the thrust area on the piston look like? Once took 3 peace crankshaft out of a 6 cylinder Perkins diesel drove it in the shop knocked an hammered like crazy! Took a welded up repair job crank out a small 4 cylinder tractor motor in 2 peaces. Life's experiences.
So what did we learn about taking out weight in places it shouldn't be taken away from. To change what they said in Pet Sematary -- "Sometimes, heavy is better".
Hi Tony love your channel, I'm having a surge problem with my chevelle when I just lighty press the pedal other than that it's fine. It has a edlebrok carb
5:01 Looks like there's a second crack starting up on that journal, about a 1/2 inch or so away from the first. How it didn't let go on the track is beyond me - sometimes, you need to be skillful, mechanically sympathetic... _and_ lucky. 🙂
Uncle Tony, Did you see Jay Leno's 1964 Dodge with the 426 Wedge in his latest episode of Jay Leno's Garage? Have you done anything with that version of engine in the past?
Clearance the new journals and bearings, run 50 grade oil (preheated), keep the oil pressure all the way down the strip, and a cast crank will live. Put it in stick shift car with slicks and you are looking at a different situation ...
Still not ready to install a forged hanging nut sack crankshaft. I still laugh when I think of a forged slant crankshaft. The picture in my mind is forever burned in.
I’m gonna push my luck with a cast crank too. It’s kinda fun to see if you can make it work. Doing same thing with the auto trans right now. I know what I should do but I’m gonna build it with what I can get locally cause I’m tired of waiting for parts!
I seen a kid bust a cast crank on a Ford 302 in an old Maverick with one of them money shifts he was trying to bang shift a little automatic C4 went from 2nd to reverse broke the crank in the rear and the thing was still idling shaking but wouldn't go we figured it out when we shut it down then tried to restart it and the front wasn't turning LOL
Uncle Tony you are right when you say forged steel is springy. I play golf and the cheap irons they use to make in the eighties were cast. I broke a couple irons with pure hits at the hosel.They make forged irons and I have never had one break at the hosel. Forged steel has rebound or springy properties and is far better whether in your crank or golf club.
And Tony demonstrates why "this is their lightest cast crank by about 20 lbs" and "the object is to see how much power we can get from a normally aspirated slant 6" isn't a combo for the feint of heart, lol
Great call Tony, it's nice when your instincts tell you something isn't right.
Was hoping you was gonna ring it like a bell,so we could see if we could tell difference in tone..
Yeah, I was waiting on it too...
He ain't Johnny B. Goode.
Not only that. But you have to rotate the cast iron crank the same direction it rotates in the engine when polishing or grinding it.
I have never really concerned myself with cast vs. forged crank because most of the time a cast crank is just fine. But this definitely opens my eyes to the difference. I'd say any extreme use hipo engine should always have a forged crank.
There s a reason Chevy small block car engines before '67 all had forged cranks (no matter how lo-perf) and the small block truck engines all had cast ones. The surface of a "white" forged shaft is MUCH softer and will wear out from dirty oil (or even cold weather starting) 10X faster. The green nitriding that GM did to really hi-perf small and big block forged shafts helped a lot and they would stand abrasion about 1/3rd as well as cast. But In all the years of having an automotive machine shop and selling new GM engine parts I NEVER SAW A TRULY STRAIGHT GREEN CRANK. Some were almost straight but most were out by a thousandth if supported front and rear mains then indicating on the middle (#3) one.
Old big-journal Pontiac cast shafts had their faults - but they look to me to be designed beefy to be made out of cast iron. Little known is a lot of GM trucks came with Pontiac not Chevy engines. (You can still find lots of cast iron Pontiac distributors with tachometer drives for that reason.)
I have instrumented the oil filter bypass valves in Chevy and Pontiac engines and even with nice hot 10w-40 oil by the time the engine was turning 4500 rpm it was already beginning to bypass dirty oil around the oil filter because of it's restriction. Then we ran into some el cheapo oil filters that amazingly claimed 2 micron filtration and the things flowed with very little restriction ! Even at 6500 rpm with a sump full of straight SAE 30 wt. the block's filter bypass valve didn't open !
So we cut one of the dogs apart. The oil filtration element was paper of course - but the element was held on to the flange by a wimpy coil spring that let the element come up off a rubber washer and bypass internally. So much for "full flow" oil filtration.
Smoky Yunick (R.I.P.) always said to remote-mount four giant HYDRAULIC system oil filters on a manifold in parallel and then plug the block-mounted bypass. It was the only way to get full filtration with cold SAE 50 wt. at 7500 rpm.
I am starting to think those cleanable oil filters with metal screens similar to aircraft engines might just be the thing for high performance. The oil isn't ever super finely filtered - but they might just "catch the big stuff" at all times, all rpms.
I will let you figure out how the old toilet paper roll filters behaved . . .
its a one in a million casting flaw. not common. my dad says hes only seen one cracked mopar crank, and it was a 318 poly FORGED CRANK.
Always wondered how that small journal crank in my 327 survived the abuse 🙂 tough little bugger.
Short stroke means more overlap between the main and rod bearings, and also less whip.
All small journal 3.25 gen1 sbc cranks are forged.
@@timothybayliss6680 oil pressure on this engine ran at least 40 psi...at idle I mean. One fella told me there was something wrong with my gauge. Do you think these may have more pressure due to the smaller diameter journal? I was 16 when I had this, in a 56 Chev 210. Had a nice lope to it. : - ) Turbo 400 tranny.
@@robjones8733 the smaller journal means less oil seepage but its pretty minimal. Mains are 2.3 instead of 2.45 and rods are 2 instead of 2.1. Thats only like 5% smaller bearings. 40psi hot idle is lots but if it was 40psi at 2500rpm as well i wouldnt have worried about it. If the gauge was showing 100psi at 2500rpm i would assume the gauge was bad.
You are my favorite automotive channel anywhere always have been since day one when you taught us all that nothing is lighter than a hole. Keep up the good work I love your content.
My thing has always been the Inline 6! Not just the leaning tower, but the 300-6, the 258 and the 4.0. I even love the Chevy variety! Just love em'
I think the 250 Pontiac ohc straight 6 is the coolest 😎
@@vicmccartin Nah 6v71 Inline 6 Detroit.
In Australia we have the inline 6 Ford "Barra" which was released in both NA and turbocharged form. A 4V OHC with hydraulic tappets for those of us who hate adjusting valve clearances. It's a good smooth inline 6 with 360HP in stock form while mildly tuned versions with an aftermarket exhaust and upgraded valve springs easily see the mid 400HP levels at the rear wheels. With an upgraded turbo 600 to 750HP is easily achieved but there are some over 2,000HP at the rear wheels but that costs real money.
Theres a Shelby 350 on UA-cam using the Barra 6 and he gets over 900 at the wheels.
Did you see the unicorn 6 on horsepower monsters channel. That little Chevy cranking 525hp and almost 600ftlbs was sure impressive!
"My instincts were right," I should have built it differently.
"If you break one of these things you have done something drastically wrong" Uncle Tony
Always keeping it Real.. UTG
5 mains doesn't help either. The slant six was also notorious for cracking rods.
Also carry a spare dist. gear (Nylon) and a spare ballast resistor.
I agree with you I'm going to listen to my instincts
I really think if you had as much experience as you claim you wouldn't be broke down.
He didn't break down. This is called sorting through a new combination...a very unorthodox one at that. If you had any actual experience yourself you would recognize the level of professionalism shown in examples like this one.
The difference between UT and most other guys is that he shows and explains what most others ignore, gloss over and try to tide
Even before you had a chance to say it, I thought that rod looked like it had a curve to it.
Just found a crack in my crankshaft on my 2.6L b2600i G6 engine. Wonder what caused it? I'm going to remove it tomorrow and inspect it closer.
Forged is strong steel the way it should be. Cast steel is barely one step above cast iron. There.
Do you think a performance based harmonic balance or a good place to invest when building a high output stock motor?
Didn't the bouncing rod cap teach you "just don't"?
Why go cast again when you know it's limitations !
Wow
Please.
Ring it with a hammer, like you were saying in previous videos.
I want to hear what you were going on about.
Good luck with the audio.
You could use directional mics. And an audio processor. But hell, I’m jus a radio station engineer when I’m not rippin rubber on my cheap Dodge.
save the crank and pour some concrete for a base and set that crank up right in the concrete and weld a bent pistion to it for a mail box post 😎🤘🏁
I have never see someone trash so many motors at such low power levels in such a short amount of time. Every motor you've built has shit itself in some kinda way
They always run the sweetest right before they break! Good thing you followed your instincts! 👍
So True man!
Oil pressure dropping to zero is good cause for a time out. This vid isn't so much about the crank [an unfortunate statistic], but what to do so the oil pump will never lose prime. Solve the oil pan/pickup/baffle issue, and he could get away with sticking with a cast crank. An extra 2 qts capacity is a good starting point I think.
I have heard that so many times. My friend had a crank literally detonate is his sb Ford. He said and I quote "the car pulled harder than it ever had, the blew up".
Would be interesting to see how that crank ‘rings’ when tapped with a hammer. Just for our general comparative info…
I love uncle Tony. In his experience he's forgot more most people will ever know. He definitely knows his stuff. His episode about cast versus forged cranks was really enlightening. And yes.. always follow your gut. Lol
Dang seems like that would have been a perfect specimen to demonstrate "ringing" the crank with a hammer
Tony, I'm a big fan and have never commented on any of your videos before. I'm doing so now because I think I can further define the difference between a cast crank and a forging. Imagine you could grow the branch of a tree in the shape of a crankshaft. Imagine the grain of the wood running continuously from one end of the crank to the other. Of course, single grains do not run the entire length of the crank but the elongated grains are kind of a "bundle" and offer more resistance to failure. That is a forging. Now, imagine poring a bunch of glue coated BB's into a crank case shaped mold. The strength of the resultant crank is dependent upon the strength of the glue. There is no long grain or cross grain as in wood, or as in a forging. That is a casting. By the way, I think the crack developed due to localized overheating when the bearing spun. A small area actually got red hot and then cooled fast enough to actually quench and produce an untempered structure that is very brittle.
Thanks for what you do.
I like the the way you explained the difference between cast vs. forged crankshafts, I’m gonna remember that next time I explain it to someone
Alan, are you saying I should make my crankshafts out of wood? Just kidding. Nice explanation
@@joew8440 LOL Garage 54... if you want to see it for real!
@@livewire2759 those guys are fun. I have watched them before. I just watched the crankshaft video. Pretty crazy amount of work they put in. They were doomed to fail counting on glue. I agree a 1 piece would work for awhile. Thanks for the suggestion
This was an excellent episode!!! Yes, forged parts are definitely able to take more abuse than cast parts... Crankshaft are extremely high stressed items in ANY reciprocating engine... At the expense of maybe another 15-to 20 pounds of weight, the forged cranks will be worth their weight in GOLD, because they often avert catastrophic engine failures when being used hard... That can be VERY expensive & time consuming to repair... There is a reason that Chrysler equipped many of their p/u trucks, motor home engines, muscle cars , with Forged Cranks... Much tougher, because of the continuous / elongated grain structure of the steel that was slammed into shape with the use of a drop hammer when it was red hot... Castings have short, random grains of metal internally, that took shape when it was poured into a mold. Cactings are very cost effective from a manufacturing standpoint, but they have nowhere close to the toughness, and resilience of forgings... I'll have mine forged, please!!!
Substandard parts resulting in substandard results.
If young guys follow your path they will get discouraged is my belief. Put in good parts will lead to success. 59 year old Mopar guy
Had a 70s pontiac 400 that still ran fine with a cracked main journal for a few weeks, I had a loud ticking that I thought was an exhaust leak, I was going to stick a rebuilt motor in the car anyway and when I checked out the old engine the crank came out in 2 pieces, split was horizontal in 2 overlapping halves I still cant believe it still ran and never spun the bearing.
That's amazing I dont see it happening but I suppose its. Possible so it turned the whole thing and was to the point
Of almost not doing that but when you removed it then it finally broke in half is that what your saying happened again amazing I've run cast cranks in pontiacs stock bottom ends abused them to death amd never had any major issues other than one time doing donuts in a wet parking lot half shitfaced w girls in the back seat well let's just say the oil all splashed to the side of the pan like Tony's situation and starved the bearings furthest from the pump of oil and yep spun no 1 amd 2 rod bearings amd the front mains did not look very happy either so live amd learn I went amd got another 400 out of the boneyard for the usual 200 bucks back then gave it the usual krylon rebuild and good hei w good wires coil and advance setup and fast for cheap was my favorite saying lots and lots of camaors and rustangs were left scratching their heads going wtf that
Old beater four door Ventura just made my 2000 dollar sbc I just had built look like it was an old tired six cylinder wtf well it's all torque and gears 373 :1 limited slip 12 bolt I forgot to mention always went from beater to beater as long as it had leaf springs and of course back then slapper or traction bars were what we had and they worked well I can't remember any of them after the bars were on having an issue w axle wrap or wheel hop another good trick that
Gm used later on in the v6 s10 stick was a third shock in the back when they are good and not worn out they work great too and who's to say it has to be a shock why not solid that would never let it wrap at all
Those old Pontiac 400's were tough motors.....some VERY interesting design differences between those and the other GM iron....
@@ssnerd583 My wife has a nasty old 70’ lemans with 400 2bbl and 40k miles … tough as nails, smooth as glass and liquefies tires .
@@glennmanchester5335 I have seen the same thing on many type 1 volkswagens and one small block Chevrolet. The culprit is almost always dieseling after turning off the ignition.
Plan Z videos always makes my day as a Slant fan! Bout to build one slant myself soon!
UT what if you tap the crank with a hammer to hear it .. just to hear the sound it makes as a plumber I use to tap a case iron pipe after cutting it to hear if it has a crack in it..
If he’d not found the crack, when he sent it out to the machine shop, they’d have magna-fluxed it and found the crack.
Love the 'not supposed to work' theme. It makes our builds unique but with more hurdles than the off the shelf builds. Great video
That's how car building is supposed to go. Nothing is supposed to work right
Surely you're instincts should have told you, 'Don't run without oil'? Just saying.
Why would you say that? He wasn't running it "without oil". The oiling system design simply wasn't up to the task, is all.
@@1965l88 Don't get me wrong, I'm a big fan of UTG. It just seems a pretty basic error is all.
Fords 352, 390, 406 and early 427 Nascar engines all ran cast cranks and they went 500 miles flat out.......Bob Glidden , Don Nickelson and Gaap and Roush used cast cranks in pro stock 351's at very high rpm and they survived.
Cast cranks work.....
Yes sir. I think Tony is meaning that if something goes south…. A forged crank would hold up better. I have always used cast no problems knock on wood.
My first car was a $100.00 61 MG Midget. The guy said if you want a forgiving car, buy a chev or ford. He was right, I spent more time under it than in it. I was 25 miles from home when I heard a bad knocking while on the gas. Drove it home and took the engine apart the next day and the crankshaft came out in two pieces. But I only my self to blame, I never drove it under 80MPH on the hiway.
my brother had a 1974 gold duster with a slant six nothing but problems would stall out making a turn and always had to carry ballast resisters in the glove box
I realy think a forged crank is appropriate over a cast replacment, im betting plan z runs Way stronger than planed for and you kinda leave no room for say...Nitrous , blower ect..
He would have to start from scratch the rod bearings and main bearings are much bigger in a forged crank /6. I'm sure eventually he will switch it tho. I'm vary curious to see how far he will push this.
What part of lost oil pressure and caught a bearing didn't you understand?...and it's not like those cast cranks are expensive...
Will the next crank be magnafluxed? That motor may have been assembled with a cracked crank.
What are you going to do with the oil pan?
One thing I learned early on in the short time I’ve been on this earth is to always trust your intuition no matter the situation
I wonder if a crack like that would affect the sound that you get when hitting it with a piece of metal.
This is the one thing I would not gamble on. It's forged 100% of the time. Yeah its 20lbs. heavier but, it's way more durable. A true race car has a forged crank.
Uncle Tony's Garage: Eh Uncle T, can you do a video on explaining the difference between a cast and a forged crankshaft? The whole process of making crankshafts. I think some of your viewers would enjoy it. Cheers, :-)
When he says "cast", he means cast IRON, which is the main ingredient in STEEL, but not the only one. In a cast crank, there is a mold, shaped like a crank. Molten iron is poured into it and allowed to cool. In a forged crank, there are upper and lower dies, and a hot steel bar is HAMMERED into shape between the dies. Steel is stronger and more flexible than cast iron, so it can withstand some twisting and bending. It has small amounts of other metals in it, like chromium, nickel, molybdenum, boron, etc. Different mixtures make different kinds of steel. The aftermarket also offers cast STEEL cranks, which slot between cast iron and forged steel, in both strength and cost.
He pretty much just did
There are good explanations of cast VS forged cranks on the "driving 4 answers" channel. He has good stuff on pistons and rods as well. The guy also goes into the balance of various engine configurations in a detailed way which is very informative.
@@pookysdad4884 Thanks for the info.
@@brianbrigg57 Thanks for the info.
6 throws, 4 mains huh? I don't like it. Yeah, I know they only make 69 horsepower or whatever most of their life, but still.
Improving the sump and pickup is important. Adding an accumulator ("Accusump") is good insurance - my opinion is that it would have probably saved the bearings from spinning.
@Mark Morland, That is interesting... I have heard of oil sumps designed for intense use, moving oil pickups that follow where the oil flows, 'dry' sump oil systems, but until now-I have never heard of storing oil under pressure using an accumulator... That would be a very good way to insure a temporary source of engine oil to the galleys, in case the pump inlet gets clogged or the oil is not near the pickup...
Do a comparison on a good crank and a cracked crank by tapping on it to make it ring. I call it ringing the bell but people say they tap on it to make it ring. The cracked crank will not ring.
Tony - keep that crank! Clear coat it and turn out into a lamp!
Love your open and frank discussion of problems but am surprised at a veteran guy making basic shortcomings like this, I have read so many articles on drag oil pans in mags for decades and decades and be surprised if you haven't done or contributed to some in the past, so what gives, from these articles I have designed and built many including on circle track motors because of lack of funds over the years and even I know not having a deep baffled pan is recipe for disaster, where was the instinct to have an adequate oil pan ?
Iv asked before but nobody comments it's like he disappeared after that live engine build
On average, with all else being equal, a cast crank of 80-90% nodularity without extreme forces will live as long as a forged one to about 6500 r.p.m. repeatedly. But why take a chance if you have the option.
I believe the Grubb Worm Camaro has a natural aspirated LT 1. I wonder what kind of crank it uses?
I believe in 1975 they had a feather duster that got 36mpg
Litteraly every motor iv seen built on this channel over like 2 years never stays together....then we see lengthy videos on o its the cam manufacturer....then just like this he posted videos checking cranks with a hammer and if it rang like a bell it was good ....now it's got a crack ....MUST HAVE BEEN THE BEARING MANUFACTURER!!!!!
Did he not expain in detail that it was a starvation issue due to pan shape?
Thanks Tony. It's enjoyable to watch people actually do things. Can't explain it, I just keep watching
More fond of six cylinder cranks with seven mains .
Wonder if that crack opened up with heat causing the journal to swell and seize?
i had a slant 6 years ago that broke the snout off the crank right past the front main bearing,and another one that i had to shim one side of the rear main seal to get it to stop leaking,after 2 or 3 new seals i pulled engine and shimmed one side of rear main seal with some copper wire.after 2 1600 mile trips still not leaking,sold after that
My dad bought a brand new Valiant in 1968. It leaked oil from day 1. Numerous trips to the dealer and it still leaked oil. He gave up and just drive the thing
Is that a crack or a spot that was welded up and turned down?
Personally I blame squirrels
Great name!
Metallurgical battle squirrels.
They ate my ignition wires once
they steal/move my golf balls.
@@rodney1818 my dads dog chewed the starter wires on a corvette i had in his barn
Thank You UT,for illustrating the "real world" situations where (and why) a cast crank would fail where a forged might not. I had a cast crank 318 in a ratrod with a homemade bellcrank type throttle & three dueces. I momentarily blipped the throttle while in Park just to clear it out,the bellcrank turned wrong side out,forcing all three carbs WOT. The tach revved to 9000 before i could shut it off but it seemed ok except all three fan belts were turned on their back. Disconnected linkage & restarted it but had vibration so i cut it off. Upon teardown i found crank snout completely severed from the remainder but otherwise looked completely normal !
I certainly DID get something out of the video, a lot actually .Damn well explained. Thank you Tony!
Very strange place... and propagation direction "across" the journal for that crack ? A Torsional failure would present along the root of the undercut radius Filet on a Mopar Crank of that vintage.... NOT "across" as seen, indicating that crack is strictly Heat/Expansion related and probably confined to the surface material ? But I will digress to more personal / better visual inspection...
Nonetheless,
That Bearing spun from inadequate vertical bearing clearance....it got HOT @ rpm and spun..... remember, Bearings only cool by new fresh Oil coming IN.... meaning the Oil already there needs to be able to get OUT first to allow the new/cooler Oil IN !!!
With 'P' eccentricity Bearings..... especially as you move further undercut with repeated regrinding.... make damn sure they grind the Journals to the LOWSIDE of the spec this time out !!!
Put the bearing Vertical Bearing Oil clearance on the CRANK by grinding it to lowside/small side of spec !.... so you can maintain Good Bearing "Crush" when ReSizing the Rod Big End also closer to lowside of spec, and still have adequate vertical Oil Clearance on the bearing.
Cast Versus Forged Crank in this failure scenario (machining in-experience for HP engines)..... would have made NO difference !
You are NOT an engine builder Tony.... you are an engine ASSEMBLER, but NOT versed nor competent with the "machining" aspects of Performance Engines. "Stock".... or within "Spec" when it comes to machining is a recipe for continued disaster ..... re-read what I posted above, it's free.
well.... it OBVIOUSLY! cracked because the pistons were in backwards!!!! >>>>>>>im joking, this is scarcasm
knok knok. hos there ka, ka ho, ka boom
For home-built, think it should be Forged and Iron/Iron all day long. 20LBs, hell I have seen a 40 Lb disparity in drivers. The old adage: over-built might be strong enough, applies! Sure you have already covered this, but containing the slosh w/ a more rearward sump may help jolting off the Line?
Its not supposed to work, im going to make it work, well damn it didnt work and heres why...
UTG in a nutshell... Uncle Tony reliving his his experiences for everyone elses benefit. And its fun.
Good judgement comes from experience, and most experience comes from bad judgement...
This conversation could continue into wet sump vs dry sump oil systems. Launching and oil issues with wet sump systems.
Tony take that boat anchor cast crankshaft and trash the whole idea,if you are going to run normally aspirated,lighten the engine drastically,trim the stock steel crank and use super lightweight rods and pistons,take the stress off the spinning weight,do this,those cast cranks are grocery getter pieces,revs should stay below 4200 to be safe for a grocery engine,the engine has probably the worst head every made,intake and exhaust same side,due to necessity of the slant for hood clearance was a designers nightmare,1.70/1.44 valves is something for a garden tractor,make it light,make it scream,eliminate the weight of the swinging pieces,what the hell its an experiment anyway,right,lets experiment,there is a reason why this engine screams with a turbo charger on it,it overcomes the design flaws,quickly,the engine was built for durability,i've built hundreds of them for yellow cab in the 70's and 80's,theyd go 330 k stock,never had lower end problems with any of them,i'd build up 10 of them and then install them,i turned the cranks myself as i didn't trust anyone to do it,for stock running i'd cut them to .00017 oil clearance on mains and rods,lighten the hell out of it,then buzz it
Oil pressure is your friend...I'd open the bearing clearance and run 20-W50 and an Accusump...tool to cut the filter apart is cheap insurance...and angle the front of that deeper sump forward at the bottom...
cracked cranks has killed some of my plans before, henceforth adding to the 30 or more engines I have apart right now. All these parts I haul around may be no good...Arrrgh, damn that magniflux guy. Thanks Uncle Tony
Wow. Thank you for this info. I’m building a 69 Cuda with a 360 that dynoed at 532hp, stock stroke and cast crank. It will be just a street car that I’ll rip on here and there. Probably won’t ever take it to the track. This helps me to be a little more at ease but also aware of the limitations of my cast crank.
I get it, as I had a 1979 Trans Am with the 403 Oldsmobile engine that has the windowed area around the main bearings. Built that engine and it just love to run hard and never failed on me. The bore and stroke worked really well for torque and rpm's. Sometimes you just got to push the limits.
I will keep asking. Which were you tony? Ranger? Marine? SEAL? The flags keep talking to me
Perfect opportunity to ring the crank, UT! Show us!
There's a few methods of hardening you can try if u need that extra bit of insurance and can't go forged. Thanks for the video! I've run cast stuff in some odd builds in the past but never pushed my luck. Interesting to see what it looks like right before catastrophic failure(Windows in engine blocks)
The machine shop that is doing my unmolested 1965 383 is loving it. He told me he does a lot a ford n chevy stuff but not too much mopar. He got a mopar honing plate even. He is now flat out in love with original mopar go fast stuff. He couldn't believe the block was to be bored and honed up side down and found out why. He told me he is basically blue printing what he has done. Mainly for hopeful future reference, even the back cutting of the valves.
Uncle Tony, I'm asking because I don't know, but does that crank with the crack still "RING" ?
I hurt a trans and turned a cast 440 crank 7100 for several seconds, Still worked no problems.
But I still buy forged.
Tony what did the thrust area on the piston look like? Once took 3 peace crankshaft out of a 6 cylinder Perkins diesel drove it in the shop knocked an hammered like crazy! Took a welded up repair job crank out a small 4 cylinder tractor motor in 2 peaces. Life's experiences.
Tony, will you have the new assembly balanced? And can a cast crank be internally balanced?
Some engine designs require externally balanced rotating assemblies, being cast or forged has no bearing on the type of balancing.
Sbc fan . Mostly shortbox stepsides.
However a 68 69 satellite sure turns the cast or forged crank.
Re forged cranks,, someone told us that the 67 Dodge pickup with a 273 had a forged crank,and was desirable to find, sound correct?
So what did we learn about taking out weight in places it shouldn't be taken away from. To change what they said in Pet Sematary -- "Sometimes, heavy is better".
You missed an opportunity to drop it on its snout to see if it would split in 2 and show the grain
It's already broken so ITS STUNT CRANK TIME! throw that puppy!
Hi Tony love your channel, I'm having a surge problem with my chevelle when I just lighty press the pedal other than that it's fine. It has a edlebrok carb
That car is fairly light, i had a 72 Impala that was 4800 lbs. Of course it was a automatic with a 400 small block... still pretty heavy.
5:01 Looks like there's a second crack starting up on that journal, about a 1/2 inch or so away from the first. How it didn't let go on the track is beyond me - sometimes, you need to be skillful, mechanically sympathetic... _and_ lucky. 🙂
@@bigboreracing356 Take your meds......
Uncle Tony,
Did you see Jay Leno's 1964 Dodge with the 426 Wedge in his latest episode of Jay Leno's Garage? Have you done anything with that version of engine in the past?
Clearance the new journals and bearings, run 50 grade oil (preheated), keep the oil pressure all the way down the strip, and a cast crank will live. Put it in stick shift car with slicks and you are looking at a different situation ...
Still not ready to install a forged hanging nut sack crankshaft. I still laugh when I think of a forged slant crankshaft. The picture in my mind is forever burned in.
I’m gonna push my luck with a cast crank too. It’s kinda fun to see if you can make it work. Doing same thing with the auto trans right now. I know what I should do but I’m gonna build it with what I can get locally cause I’m tired of waiting for parts!
You seem to know all the Tricks for a Mopar. Here's an oldie that I'd like to see if you Know. A Pontiac OHC 6 Crank for the 225? Making it a stroker.
Uncle Tony, show us how to ring test a crank with that cracked one.
Edit: Im an idiot. Just seen your next video. Ignore me.
I seen a kid bust a cast crank on a Ford 302 in an old Maverick with one of them money shifts he was trying to bang shift a little automatic C4 went from 2nd to reverse broke the crank in the rear and the thing was still idling shaking but wouldn't go we figured it out when we shut it down then tried to restart it and the front wasn't turning LOL
Your right it would have gone KABOOM ,cause it would have done the same thing with the same oil pan .
Does this only apply to Slant six Dodge engines because big block Chrysler cast cranks seem to be fairly strong and last.
so i guess the 600HP shot of NO2 is out??