Always use cam break in lube, always follow the cam maker's instructions. Every tip UT gave here is invaluable, and it doesn't matter if it's a stock replacement or a top fueler, they're all steps that need to be taken. I've been a mechanic for most of my 59 years, and the most common thing that fails on breaking in a new cam is when people shortcut the weaker springs on break in. They put the strong, running springs on the valves, and think they can just run it at 2000 on break in and it will be fine, because they don't want to go back and redo them. That is 100% the easiest way to wipe a new custom ground, weeks long waiting time to build, cam out.
I recently sold a engine I rebuilt to a guy (a idiot), it was a complete running engine on a stand with starter, radiator the works. I ran it in on the stand because I didn't trust anyone to run the cam in properly. This "guy" gets back to me 6 months after he bought the engine and says it overheats. He pulled the entire engine apart to "fix" this so called overheating problem. He took the sump off and sent me pictures of a mettalic looking paste in the bottom of the sump with the caption "it doesn't look very pretty". He had discovered the remainder of the moly cam break in lubricant mixed with oil. He thought it was worn out I'll fitting pistons. You do the right thing and you still get accused of being a shister.
@@patrickwhitehead7584 you're dead right. This was a bloody good engine ready to go straight in a car. I'd spent a ton of time on it. This dick put salty water from his local supply in it and rusted up the cooling system and tried to say I sold him a engine full of rust and then made up a whole bunch of other fictional problems to say the engine was crap. He said there was not much coolant flow to the radiator so he tried it with no thermostat and wasn't any better. What the dumb ass didn't know is if you run this engine with no thermostat the coolant will just recirculate in the block and only a small amount will go to the radiator. Exactly the opposite of what this goof thought and actually producing the thing he complained about. I should have kept the engine for myself.
@@charlesangell_bulmtl Exactly NASCAR guys run orifice or washer with smaller hole you have to have pressure difference. Even most of your home short track guys do the same.
One thing I've observed. The old Toyota 2T engine, which was a solid lifter pushrod hemi 4 cylinder, the lifters had flat faces, ran centered on the cam lobes and never rotated at all, which was apparent if you looked at the lifter bottom. You would see a center wear stripe on the lifter face, with a varnished area on each side. There may have been a key or pin in the lifter preventing rotation, not sure, never got that deep into one, the dang things usually ran until the body disappeared. but they just didn't turn. I worked on many of these over the years, and never once saw a camshaft or lifter failure.
I spun a rod bearing in a 77 2TC. It actually locked the engine. I pulled the engine and took everything to a machine shop. That crank was still good to go with standard bearings. I don't know what kind of steel was in that crank, but it was GOOD STEEL. The only odd thing about that engine was " hone to fit" cam bearings. It took 2 sets of bearings before the machine shop figured out why the cam would not go through all the bearings. Ran the crap out of that little Hemi for 5 years. All my friends called the Corolla it was in the "Silver Bullet"
Hey, you guys may get a kick outa this. I’m rebuilding the Detroit Series 60 in my semi truck and yesterday I was putting the cam bearings in the cam caps and I picked one up and notice something in the oil galley of the cam cap. A rock. A little tiny rock jammed in the oil galley. That cam came straight off a $3000 reman head. Glad I caught that.
I remember years ago when guys would change cams and not even know about breaking a cam in and just start it up,adjust timing and go.......talking about taking things for granite back in the day.
Let’s be honest here: that worked great with putting a mild cam in sixes, 2-bbl engines, or a luxo-barge 4-bbl big block with factory valve springs. I’ve done it on a 2-bbl 383 myself. It NEVER was a good idea with really big valve springs on radical lift or high lift-rate cams, and people did sometimes accidentally wipe cams that way back in the day. The difference today isn’t so much “you can’t get away with shortcuts anymore,” it is that people are wiping cams EVEN when doing everything correctly. Which says the problem is with the parts themselves.
During the 80's I was a Cadillac tech. We put thousands of cams in the HT4100 V8's. I probably did 100 of them, NEVER spent an extra minute to break in a cam. The cams did come with cam--lube, and EOS oil additive. Never had one come back on me, and never heard of the other guys having problems either.
Bang on uncle tony! No professional here but i have been rebuilding and retrofitting GM small block engines for almost 20 years. However the application i use them for is in generators and to power oilfield equipment. I DO NOT use a special oil for break-in or any dditive. Using conventional 5w-30 always after checking lifter convex. Do a run in at 2000-2500 for 15-20 minutes. Then draining oil? Swishing a magnet through oil and cutting filter apart. A few “specs” of metal is pretty normal. If the filter has half a camshaft in it something went wrong. Has happend. Thank you for the video! Great contenr
I know exactly what the people are talking about that are afraid to build an engine anymore. I got the head for my Uncle Tony's super slant six back from the machine shop yesterday. Everything is ready to go together, I'm using NOS parts everywhere I can even down to the copper head gasket. Everything should be perfect... I just sat out in my shop for two hours just looking at everything. For the first time in my life (I'm in my 70's) I am afraid to put a motor together and see it run. There's a lot of time and money out there just waiting for a cheap ass Chinese part to make scrap out of it. GOD I do miss the 60's so...
We rebuilt an n14 a few years ago with all Cummins parts. One of the main bearings had a 1/4" babbitt tit on it. We rebuilt another the next year and I found a bad part (cant remember what it was) so I started checking other parts, and the main bearing set was missing a shell and the thrust bearings.
back in 1995 i was running late model circle track car on asphalt,a dodge 360 with cast iron heads heads and roller lifters.i had t run on 7 cylinders, took off rocker arm and took out rocker arm and lifter that lost its needle bearings,i still won the main event,went to isky roller lifters with bronze bushings instead of needle bearings,i lost the lifter in a heat race,we had 2 hours till the main event.all the chevys and fords werent happy at all since i was the only mopar there
Chuck Fina! Their garbage parts put us out of business. No way to stand behind your work with garbage parts that force you to eat TONS of labor to make good on a job for a loyal customer of over 20 yrs.. Time after time after time....
I don’t trust comp’s lifters. I order a 268h kit with cam, lifters, timing set and valve springs, and 11 out of the 16 lifters were .005-.009” oversized. Quality control is nonexistent
You forgot where the cam lobe sits when installed. FabRats recently built a 454 and he admittedly cheaped out on an ebay cam. The cam destroyed itself almost instantly. When he pulled the motor apart the cam was about 1/16th of an inch shorter than it should have been which caused the lobes to sit too far in the block. Something that could have easily been caught if they had looked down the lifter bore.
I have seen quite a few flat tappet lifter bases with a faint square shadow starting to show, it's ready to go flat. The properly broken in lifter has its crown, polished with a faint bullseye pattern.. Remember a lifter too loose in its bore also will fail to rotate. The cam really only has one chance to break in properly.
OMG I hope you took them back. I ordered a new cam, received a used on with a flat lobe in the box for the new cam. The vendor made good on it though, I believe the supplier screwed him. Hope he got his money back as well.
Back in the early 2000’s when cam/lifter failures first blew up, there were several methods to help. Washing the camshaft clean then coating it with a Spray on Dry-lubricant, coating the lobes/lifters with Isky Rev-paste and using mineral base oil with higher levels of lubricants. ie zinc etc. Always pre-lube the engine. I personally switched exclusively to Crower “Cam Saver” lifters adding more oil to the lifter/lobe interface. JD
Another thing that gives the lifter spin is the lifter is offset on the lobe. The spin gives the lobe and lifter face a rolling action and not a straight push or lift.
yes good point to make to clarify it actually acts as a sotra roller that way..kinda brilliant!! . if you think about it this would reduce wear by allowing the cam lifters to spin with the movement of the lobe. i think also paying attention to cleaning the rod contact points.. i remember noticing my sunbeam alpine engine push rods moving in circles as i was checking valve lash.
Thats why you check the face on EVERY lifter , if its not convex , you are going to wipe a lobe ,and it doesn't matter what brand or where you got them either
Uncle Tony you're the greatest you've taught me so much that I did not know about cars engines I love watching your channel I hope I can share it with many people
Last flat tappet cam engine I built the cam did not come with lube, it was just a cheap RV cam. Asked my machinist what to use, he said red wheel bearing grease. So I used wheel bearing grease, cam break in went fine. I think I was lucky rather than good.
That works, just can't gob it on things. It can possibly restrict oil orfices, until the oil in the engine gets hot enough to melt it. In a pinch, I have used Vaseline with success on main and rod bearings, but I have always used break in lube for the cam, I will stop assembly until I gat it, for those.
I have seen it first hand, now. I have a 1983 Chevy Impala, 229 V6, TH200C transmission. The water pump quit last week. Well, while the car was still in town on the trailer carrying it, I stopped at AutoZone and bought a brand new Duralast heavy duty water pump. A little bit of struggle and strain, and I had it back together. Go to start it, and the person helping me says, "Whoa! You have a leak". A closer look revealed that the water pump fitting boss was split! Not a little crack, but a full-on fissure, all the way down
I removed a cam that was wearing perfectly, still looked new it was supposed to be an HO engine and I was curious to see if it had .407" valve lift. So I started checking the lift and base circles. The base circles were all over the place, and despite the normal wear, the valve lift was only .373" on all, (.250" lobe lift). SO glad I checked it. Logically it must have been a cheap re-grind; not a good idea on a Pontiac because the valve train is non-adjustable.
I normally use the lifter on glass method to check the crown. If I end up using the lifter on lifter method, I always hold the 2 lifters up to a light source the make sure that they're good.
If your lifter bores are in need of attention to get free movement or maybe glazed over. They make little dingle ball hones for lifter bores or a master cylinder hone might work. A quick hone can clean them up and put a little crosshatch in them for better oil retention. Don't want to open them up, just a surface prep. Even a little hand scotch brite job helps or small scotch buffs.
@@terrypetty9822 A funny thing about metal and countries of origin... I just bought an OTC ball joint press and it is now made in the USA. The one I've been using for the past ten years was OTC made in China. Why would it go back the other way? Perhaps quality control, maybe China's over acting lock downs. If I ran a big business China would be axed.
You could also buy a gauge block (not expensive) and if you can "wring" a lifer to it, the lifter is bad because it's too flat. Anything with a suitable crown will not wring to the block's precision edge.
My best advice on this matter is, if you have a known good OEM part. Re use it. Not everything needs replaced during a refreshing. Focus your money on the actual wear items, and buy the best quality you can find. I love using Napa to source my parts, summit gets pretty good stuff too.
I think this applies to all parts these days. not just stuff for MOPAR Ford etc. Check your stuff for Honda, Chevy Ford truck, YUGO, whatever it is. No one can afford these failures.
I hear ya on the cam break in...I just chuck 'em in and straight onto a drive to bed the rings and break in the cam at the same time...Knock on wood my luck continues..
What you can actually do after cam break in if you don't mind a mess, is paint a vertical white line on each pushrod, take the plugs out and wind the motor over on the starter. All the pushrods should rotate. If they don't you've got trouble and there's nothing you can do about it at that point but at least you know. You can do it with valve covers cut open for the purpose and actually run the engine in 5 second increments but it probably works better on Wedge engines rather than Hemis.
Paul from FabRats recently had a new cam that had the lobes machined about 1/4" offset from where they should have been. Caused the cam to eat up the lifters, chew up the lobes and you can guess where all the metal went. You can see the video on his youtube channel.
not only do the lifters, turn, but cross hatch patterns on cylinder walls cause the rings to rotate untill they get seated, and they move but its much,like may be FEW THO
Again with the Cadillacs. Every HT4100 engine I tore down had all the ring gaps lined up. Didn't seem to matter, but of course I always spaced them out again. On a modern, precisely machined engine IMO the rings will walk all over the place.
When you drop the lifter through the lifter bore, make sure too that it doesn't rock side to side. Name brand cam kit, lifters, cam, springs, keepers and retainers for a 350 SBC. Lifterswere .080" smaller than minimum diameter.
Just had my whole transmission rebuilt and had to wait a month for parts. I did get a warranty but now I'm concerned it may not last much longer than the warranty
I made the mistake of getting a white box special carb for my 1969 f100 and it wouldn’t stay running took the carb apart and they didn’t put a needle and seat in it
Anyone mess with a new out of the box Hurst competition shifter. Man......the quality today is just deplorable. So much slop in the assembly and it's supposed to be new. Better off finding one used from the 70's and just rebuild it. Bit it's not just automotive. As a guitarist, there's a reason Gibson has been back in it's heels for a while. Quality got worse and worse and worse to the point no one will lay down 3K for a new Les Paul with problems. Gibson, came to their stark realization and had to admit in a press release that they had gotten sloppy and recommitted itself to their customer. But a lot moved on.
I also work in music and electronics for the studio world and the problem exist here as well..bad or wrong parts is epidemic and corporations stop supporting older equipment before they are even old enough to be out of service life. They want you to just toss it and buy new..Expensive units too that fail in a few years or so.
@@robinarrington5498 Both him and automatic transmissions (hiram) are worth the watch. For what it's worth Gearboxvideo is run by Paul Cangialosi who came up with the Jaguar transmissions used for racing back in the 90's, he does know his shit. He has a few vids on Hurst and how to rebuild and adjust them. Edit: thought i would post the vid about the Jaguars from Paul's UA-cam channel: ua-cam.com/video/mT3NscNlmPg/v-deo.html Fun stuff.
I once read a few years ago in an nhra tech story that on a top fuel engine the cam lobes for the front cylinders and rear cylinders are ground with a slight offset to compensate for the camshaft actually twisting under full throttle. Incredible to think about the internal forces involved to cause that problem and thought involved to find a solution to it.
I remember reading that all of the Big Three manufacturers had big electric motors to hook any given engine up to, to simulate the engine at high load, to see how the metal and parts would fare. I also imagine that if they had clear valve covers and a clear intake cover (in place of the intake and carburetor assembly), that would give quite a load of insight into how the metal could distort or warp under high load, or even under normal operating condition. I thought that was interesting.
I built my first engine back in 1989. I always knew about the crown on the lifters and how they rotated and all but I had no idea about the taper on the cam lobes! I have read hot rod - car craft - super chevy etc since I was a kid and this topic was never mentioned! Thanks again for fantastic info!
I agree with every recommendation in this video. When it comes to proper inspection & break-in for camshafts - UTG is 100% on point! This is where I turn into one of those know-it-all nerds in the comment section, but I think this is important, especially if anyone runs into cam problems that are difficult to figure out. The camshaft is retained or “pushed” back into the block by the force exerted from the 45 degree angle on the oil pump drive gear on the camshaft. The more oil pressure there is, the more resistance there is, which in turn tends to push the camshaft towards the rear of the engine. The cam sprocket of has a machined surface which holds the cam in place & prevents the cam from “walking” back too far into the block. It’s quite possible that there are directional forces pushing the camshaft (front or back) which are exerted by the valve springs through the lifters as UTG described, but I think the forces exerted through the oil pump drive are greater & easily measurable…
Tony Tony Tony...... Please buy/build some shelving... For goodness sake. ... Bits all over the floor and , build some workbenches with steel tops... It will make your life so much easier. Great programs, great knowledge. Keep it up
“I don’t want to talk about zinc in the oil, I want to talk about the mechanical stuff…”. BRAVO! It’s so easy to blame the oil, but IMO that isn’t the problem. 1) if you’re smart, you can still buy oils with more than enough ZDDP. Nobody says you have to use supermarket Castrol, Pennzoil, Valvoline, etc. intended for new cars. People still see failures with high zinc oils. 2) ZDDP wasn’t even a thing until the 60s. A lot of people don’t seem to know that even into the 70s, joe blow on the street could (and did!) still buy and use oil without ZDDP. Lifter failures weren’t rampant. Therefore: It. Is. Not. The. Oil!
I've had numerous times that my buddies call me after they wiped out a new cam. It doesn't take but a few minutes that they had no idea what they should have done. I hate it for them. Now take the engine apart and clean it! Yep, that new cam lobe(s) are spread throughout the oil passages. Tom, I hope the younger generation is paying attention, we're a dying breed.
Back in 2011 bought a custom ground Nitrided cam. I installed it in 2013 and one of the journals was .0015 over size. I was so upset because I bought it a few years before installing it. I called Gab at Comp, he had me ship it back and they corrected it very quickly. I used comp solid EDM lifters, Comp assembly lube & Comp break in oil additive. It is a weekend warrior and still going strong.
Just done a successful Cam run in yesterday, with a good second hand used cam, and near new used lifters that were taken out of two other Engines. I will do a video of how i check the cam and lifters.
5.2 Durango; roller cams are great. Used the old lifters over again on new cam. Didn't even use brake in lube, just ran the starter with the coil off for 2 minutes to lube it. Ran it at 2000 RPM for like 2 minutes and I was done. Drove it 500 miles the following week. Everything is just fine.
As always thank you so much for posting this video. I'm definitely one of the people whose apprehensive about building this engine. I have everything I need except the cam and lifters. And apprehension is the big reason. Have an awesome weekend UncleTony and Uncle Kathy
Hey Tony , I know a guy that that has the Harley engine that you are looking for . it is actually still on a bike , or at least the last time I seen it , it was a project he was going to build . but I believe he ever had gotten back to it . But it is a kick only , and I think it is 1974 with the right side Shifter. .. Soon as see him I ask about for you . Tim from Wisconsin
Always clean prep and check. You can never go wrong there. I know guys that just swap out cams and think they can just go out and rip 7-8 rpm. A 5.0 mustang just got laid down because of negligence and supposed built engine. It made it through one good street block burnout and that was it. And they are blaming It on cam company when this person bought the wrong cam. Around here in ky it's hard to help some people. They really honestly believe they know it all!! And have no uttet clue. Live and live learn I tried to help but some just don't listen
Great video! Loads of information but simple and concise, please make more videos like this one. You truly are performing a valuable public service by sharing your knowledge. Thank you, and keep up the good work!
Tony that is a great idea for a video. How to get your distributor “dead nuts spot on “ before firing for the first time ! I have always got it close enough to start right up but then tweak it with the timing light up above 2000 rpm when running a new cam.. Regards Gary..
I love the vibe of these videos, add a pull or five from a pint bottle of mccormicks and you'd remind me of the guys at my neighbor's workshop who would talk me through automotive shit as a kid/teen.
I did Cam swap some old small block Chevys when I was younger just didn't know any better shoving stick in there. Everything back together go Rev the snot out of it no break-in no nothing never had a problem until the last 5 years even doing everything right hi zinc oil and everything at 3 go flat not all the same manufacturer right off the bat motors coming out
I’d love to put big mutha thumpr cam in my bb Ford. Previous owner removed it for a small lift one but I’m not sure he marked the lifters correctly and to buy a new set seems dangerous. So here I sit starring at the box wondering what it would be like. It sucks
I worked at an engine exchange company for a few years and was never taught this older engines w out roller lifters wow I’m just mind fucked right now great information please don’t stop with the knowledge I really enjoy the videos I learn something every time 👍
My question uncle Tony is, but what if, now this is according to the previous owner, the motor was professionally built ran and properly broken in, but then sat and the last time it ran was 15 years ago. I turned it over by hand and got oil to come up to the rockers. Buuuut 2 valves were sticking 'exhaust' tapped them a bit and they started moving. Did a couple of crank overs with the starter, but haven't fired it up yet. I'm just thinking rust on lifters and valves, I can actually see some push rods spinning but not all. Chevy 350
I still feel like I got lucky with our 230 rebuild, white box rock auto cam and lifters. Good thing the lifters come in sets of fours because I noticed on the base of the lifter some pitting, like when you weld something then grind it smooth and it has some small pinholes, thats what it looked like! I lightly sanded the bottom edge of each lifter because it felt like a sharp edge to me, honestly it should be a radius, dont know why they are made to a sharp edge, I feel like a radius would really help. but anyway I sanded them and then put them in the bock without thinking. My friend was helping me and he did the same process on his 84 302 and had no problems. but then we had to bring it back to the machine shop, (I measured my clearances wrong, all was good) but they said the lifter bores would need to be honed, they are too tight from the rust build up from sitting in my garage over winter. I fixed it myself with some sand paper wrapped around a socket. When I was finished the lifter moved easily in the bore with almost no resistance. I think that was key, and using the high zinc break in oil, and not just an additive. Because who knows how well it will mix, especially when you have to run the engine at 2k RPM right off the bat. I also rotated the engine over by hand A LOT while setting valves, because I got confused, the shop pressed the cam gear on 180deg. off but it didn't make a difference once I figured that out. Please check out my videos and see what you thing as to how I got so lucky with my white box parts, or if people are just doing things wrong, and not noticing bad parts. Car has maybe 1000 miles on now with no issues. The scarry part is I did not check for lifter crown or for lobe taper. Yikes.
Ever since reading some o Smokey Yunicks books about engine building ive made a habit of honing the lifter bores with a small brake hone or scotchbrite pad on a split rod in a drill to polish the surface in the bores. I would make sure to only do when you are going to clean the whole block but so far it has worked well but I normally use a roller setup for anything with spring pressures and rpms higher than stock . The way i see it is a little extra oil on the lobes with more clearance in the bores shouldnt amount to much hp loss from windage. Thanks UT
I bought a brand new roller master chain, right out of the box it had more slop then the previous 25 year old 200,000 mile roller master chain it was replacing.
I built a small set of rollers that can adjust themselves for rotating shafts,to measure straightness. Works for cams too. Found the idea on Keith Fenner's Turnwrite millworks channel I think it's called. You can buy his sets or make your own. They even work with tapered shafts. Very happy with his design. If your into that kinda stuff.
When I rebuilt an old 327, I had with 0 budget and installed a brand new cam, on special $50.00 back in 1970 with used lifters from a newer Z28 and no problems and it ran great! lucky me.
@@devillockj not entirely true, cams going flat had been a pretty common thing even 30+ years ago. Alot of the time they would go bad from people not doing the break in or having too much valve spring pressure upon initial run in. Also around the very late 80s and early 90s a good majority of motor oils had the zinc removed and there was a massive amount of late 70s early 80s cars with the factory cams going flat like crazy and people found out the zinc was needed for those older engines but by the early 90s most manufacturers had switched to roller cams by that point and due to the strict epa emissions laws there are no "street legal oils" sold with zinc anymore, the only way they can sell zinc oil is to legally classify it as "racing oil" or "for classic vehicle use only". And alot of people still believe that diesel oil has enough zinc for a flat tappet engine which is absolutely not true anymore, around 2008ish when the DPF systems were being introduced into the diesel word they removed almost all the zinc from diesel oils to protect the DPF filters, some diesel oils do contain small amounts of zinc but definitely not enough to keep a flat tappet cam alive and some diesel oils have no zinc at all. My point is that even though there are alot of bad parts put there today, not everything from the past was better. The biggest issue i have personally seen these days with cam breakins gone wrong is from people using the wrong oil.
The old AC Delco lifter from the 60's and 70's had Stellite faces....Bulletproof material....Best of the best! I paid $20/lifter for a LS-6 restoration once to install OEM hardware...Last time they were listed in a GM catalogue the "585" edge orifice lifters retailed for $31 each....Whats a trashed motor from a failed cam worth when its "numbers matching" and has $3000 of parts/machine work in it (these are early 90's pricing)
@@briang4470 the petroleum quality institute of America tested ck4 shell rotella t4 and phos was 1034 and zinc was 1130! phos/zinc in 1967 was 1100-1200! sum like chevron have lower levels.
@@jakemichael8586 do you know when they did that test? If that is in the new rotella that you can buy now I would be extremely surprised, because all on road diesel engines made after 2008 come from the factory with an egr valve and a DPF system which can be damaged by certain metals and other materials such as zinc and sulfur which has been almost completely eliminated from on road diesel fuel which has caused a whole bunch of fuel injector and pump failures. And I figured by now all the common off the shelf diesel oil would have almost no zinc content just like most gasoline engine oils have practically no zinc or phosphorus. With these old classic rides I like to use valvoline VR1 or use some of the joe gibs or "driven" racing oils. In a pinch you could use non detergent conventional oil and run a bottle of zinc additive which I myself and some other people I know have done so in the past with great success.
Uncle Tony- Can you do a short video on changing a full set of Hydraulic Flat tappet lifters, measuring for custom pushrods, setting preload and best practices for breaking in the lifters on a 426 Hemi with stock adjustable rockers. Thanks
Uncle Tony I use to break my motors in with cam break in oil from comp and other manufacturers cam break in oil.. I've lost a few cams since them.. however for the last 5 years ive been breaking in my motors in with Valvoline VR1 10w30. I have yet to lose a flat tappet cam or lifter since then. I've built at least 40 motors with this in the last 4 years problem free
Don't brake in a new cam with new double or triple valve springs.. brake in with the outer spring after the cam has completed the brake in period install the extra springs.. its a pain i know but ( it will save your cam shaft )
Perfect timing on this video UT! I want to do a top end kit on my 460 this winter and now know what to look for. Thanks for sharing. Cheers from Motown.
Some where on UA-cam is a guy explaining a flat tappet cam, he honestly believes that a tappet just rides over the lobe, not understanding that the contact patch on a lifter is very, very small. It literally rides on the outside edge of the lifter causing it to spin, it might be a good idea to mic the lifters and the bores to find the correct clearance for each one. You can always lightly hone a lifter bore for the correct clearance. I always advise only outer springs and low ratio rockers for cam break-in.
I know it sucks spending the money on a roller cam but we have to face it that its been over 30 years since flat tappets were put out in new vehicles with any great quantity. Production quality is just going to keep going down on lifters.
Do you ever read your comments? I've watched every one of your videos and I have never seen a like or comment on you tube. I hope you read them because they are important. I think you are the best auto guy on you tube. Thanks I've learned a bunch from you
Tony from 1 old school mopar guy in north Georgia to one in Tn. would you explain to people the differance in a late 71 early 72 400 203 casting thick wall block I run these and have made close to 1000 hp with them and they live and out perform any stock mopar block i have ever came across I know the history of these beautys but kept it a secret for 30 years time to let the thick webbing out of the bag
Awesome tips for success! Thank you so much! I did a cam last year and everything seems ok but now I'm sitting here thinking...were the lifters lose enough? Ive always kept them on the snug side to prevent excessive oil loss through this area..in Buicks it matters..as well as keeping oil from dripping on rotating mass. Now im contemplating snatching intake and seeing what it looks like after a year. Thanks for another fact filled video buddy!
RETURN YOUR BAD PARTS
Dont just launch them across the shop or bin them. Send them back. This is how your suppliers take the hint
Yup, the only problems that a corporation considers worth solving are the ones that hurt it's profits.
Always use cam break in lube, always follow the cam maker's instructions. Every tip UT gave here is invaluable, and it doesn't matter if it's a stock replacement or a top fueler, they're all steps that need to be taken. I've been a mechanic for most of my 59 years, and the most common thing that fails on breaking in a new cam is when people shortcut the weaker springs on break in. They put the strong, running springs on the valves, and think they can just run it at 2000 on break in and it will be fine, because they don't want to go back and redo them. That is 100% the easiest way to wipe a new custom ground, weeks long waiting time to build, cam out.
I recently sold a engine I rebuilt to a guy (a idiot), it was a complete running engine on a stand with starter, radiator the works.
I ran it in on the stand because I didn't trust anyone to run the cam in properly.
This "guy" gets back to me 6 months after he bought the engine and says it overheats. He pulled the entire engine apart to "fix" this so called overheating problem.
He took the sump off and sent me pictures of a mettalic looking paste in the bottom of the sump with the caption "it doesn't look very pretty".
He had discovered the remainder of the moly cam break in lubricant mixed with oil. He thought it was worn out I'll fitting pistons.
You do the right thing and you still get accused of being a shister.
@@Hydrogenblonde THIS! This is why I don't sell anything. It isn't worth the hassle.
@@patrickwhitehead7584 you're dead right. This was a bloody good engine ready to go straight in a car. I'd spent a ton of time on it. This dick put salty water from his local supply in it and rusted up the cooling system and tried to say I sold him a engine full of rust and then made up a whole bunch of other fictional problems to say the engine was crap.
He said there was not much coolant flow to the radiator so he tried it with no thermostat and wasn't any better.
What the dumb ass didn't know is if you run this engine with no thermostat the coolant will just recirculate in the block and only a small amount will go to the radiator. Exactly the opposite of what this goof thought and actually producing the thing he complained about.
I should have kept the engine for myself.
@@Hydrogenblonde Few know how to tune flow for their specifics aka " NASCAR types"
@@charlesangell_bulmtl Exactly NASCAR guys run orifice or washer with smaller hole you have to have pressure difference. Even most of your home short track guys do the same.
One thing I've observed. The old Toyota 2T engine, which was a solid lifter pushrod hemi 4 cylinder, the lifters had flat faces, ran centered on the cam lobes and never rotated at all, which was apparent if you looked at the lifter bottom. You would see a center wear stripe on the lifter face, with a varnished area on each side. There may have been a key or pin in the lifter preventing rotation, not sure, never got that deep into one, the dang things usually ran until the body disappeared. but they just didn't turn. I worked on many of these over the years, and never once saw a camshaft or lifter failure.
I spun a rod bearing in a 77 2TC. It actually locked the engine. I pulled the engine and took everything to a machine shop. That crank was still good to go with standard bearings. I don't know what kind of steel was in that crank, but it was GOOD STEEL. The only odd thing about that engine was " hone to fit" cam bearings. It took 2 sets of bearings before the machine shop figured out why the cam would not go through all the bearings. Ran the crap out of that little Hemi for 5 years. All my friends called the Corolla it was in the "Silver Bullet"
I was actually completely unaware cams were ground unevenly on the lobe for that purpose. You teach me things all the time, Uncle Tony!
Same here, well said!
On flat tappet cams but not roller cams
@@AndyGeesGarage Thats because cam gear driving dist gear it pushes
@@AndyGeesGarage Yes you do. Thrust plate or button both do the same
Hey, you guys may get a kick outa this. I’m rebuilding the Detroit Series 60 in my semi truck and yesterday I was putting the cam bearings in the cam caps and I picked one up and notice something in the oil galley of the cam cap. A rock. A little tiny rock jammed in the oil galley. That cam came straight off a $3000 reman head. Glad I caught that.
25 years ago changed the plug wires on wifes car. Had to put the old wires back on since car would barely run. Autozone wires were crap.
I remember years ago when guys would change cams and not even know about breaking a cam in and just start it up,adjust timing and go.......talking about taking things for granite back in the day.
Granite?
Granted taking things for granted not granite lol
Let’s be honest here: that worked great with putting a mild cam in sixes, 2-bbl engines, or a luxo-barge 4-bbl big block with factory valve springs. I’ve done it on a 2-bbl 383 myself. It NEVER was a good idea with really big valve springs on radical lift or high lift-rate cams, and people did sometimes accidentally wipe cams that way back in the day. The difference today isn’t so much “you can’t get away with shortcuts anymore,” it is that people are wiping cams EVEN when doing everything correctly. Which says the problem is with the parts themselves.
@@austindoud273 ua-cam.com/video/xP-Wd453wq4/v-deo.html
During the 80's I was a Cadillac tech. We put thousands of cams in the HT4100 V8's. I probably did 100 of them, NEVER spent an extra minute to break in a cam. The cams did come with cam--lube, and EOS oil additive. Never had one come back on me, and never heard of the other guys having problems either.
Bang on uncle tony! No professional here but i have been rebuilding and retrofitting GM small block engines for almost 20 years. However the application i use them for is in generators and to power oilfield equipment. I DO NOT use a special oil for break-in or any dditive. Using conventional 5w-30 always after checking lifter convex. Do a run in at 2000-2500 for 15-20 minutes. Then draining oil? Swishing a magnet through oil and cutting filter apart. A few “specs” of metal is pretty normal. If the filter has half a camshaft in it something went wrong. Has happend. Thank you for the video! Great contenr
I know exactly what the people are talking about that are afraid to build an engine anymore. I got the head for my Uncle Tony's super slant six back from the machine shop yesterday. Everything is ready to go together, I'm using NOS parts everywhere I can even down to the copper head gasket. Everything should be perfect... I just sat out in my shop for two hours just looking at everything. For the first time in my life (I'm in my 70's) I am afraid to put a motor together and see it run. There's a lot of time and money out there just waiting for a cheap ass Chinese part to make scrap out of it. GOD I do miss the 60's so...
We rebuilt an n14 a few years ago with all Cummins parts. One of the main bearings had a 1/4" babbitt tit on it.
We rebuilt another the next year and I found a bad part (cant remember what it was) so I started checking other parts, and the main bearing set was missing a shell and the thrust bearings.
back in 1995 i was running late model circle track car on asphalt,a dodge 360 with cast iron heads heads and roller lifters.i had t run on 7 cylinders, took off rocker arm and took out rocker arm and lifter that lost its needle bearings,i still won the main event,went to isky roller lifters with bronze bushings instead of needle bearings,i lost the lifter in a heat race,we had 2 hours till the main event.all the chevys and fords werent happy at all since i was the only mopar there
what late model CARs had a 360 in 1995? I can't think of anything. I can see trucks/vans, but I can't think of any cars.
@@evanc6110 Late model dirt cars aren't based on a manufacturer. They are fully jig built, all sheet metal bodied race cars.
@@elmerfudpucker3204 Thank you for informing me, I do not know much about circle track cars. Now I am really curious what car he had set up.
Chuck Fina! Their garbage parts put us out of business. No way to stand behind your work with garbage parts that force you to eat TONS of labor to make good on a job for a loyal customer of over 20 yrs.. Time after time after time....
I don’t trust comp’s lifters. I order a 268h kit with cam, lifters, timing set and valve springs, and 11 out of the 16 lifters were .005-.009” oversized. Quality control is nonexistent
I quit using any comp products some years back. Strictly Howards now. Made in USA.
You forgot where the cam lobe sits when installed. FabRats recently built a 454 and he admittedly cheaped out on an ebay cam. The cam destroyed itself almost instantly. When he pulled the motor apart the cam was about 1/16th of an inch shorter than it should have been which caused the lobes to sit too far in the block. Something that could have easily been caught if they had looked down the lifter bore.
I have seen quite a few flat tappet lifter bases with a faint square shadow starting to show, it's ready to go flat. The properly broken in lifter has its crown, polished with a faint bullseye pattern.. Remember a lifter too loose in its bore also will fail to rotate. The cam really only has one chance to break in properly.
What a coincidence you put this video out I literally just bought lifters the other day and I checked for the crown and they were actually concave
OMG I hope you took them back. I ordered a new cam, received a used on with a flat lobe in the box for the new cam. The vendor made good on it though, I believe the supplier screwed him. Hope he got his money back as well.
If you are going to run super stiff or multiple valve springs only install the outers or a set of mild springs for the break in period.
No doubt. Even the 1.2 ratio arms help.
why
@@Videoswithsoarin why what?
@@Videoswithsoarin cuz…
Back in the early 2000’s when cam/lifter failures first blew up, there were several methods to help.
Washing the camshaft clean then coating it with a Spray on Dry-lubricant, coating the lobes/lifters with Isky Rev-paste and using mineral base oil with higher levels of lubricants. ie zinc etc. Always pre-lube the engine.
I personally switched exclusively to Crower “Cam Saver” lifters adding more oil to the lifter/lobe interface. JD
Another thing that gives the lifter spin is the lifter is offset on the lobe.
The spin gives the lobe and lifter face a rolling action and not a straight push or lift.
yes good point to make to clarify it actually acts as a sotra roller that way..kinda brilliant!! . if you think about it this would reduce wear by allowing the cam lifters to spin with the movement of the lobe. i think also paying attention to cleaning the rod contact points.. i remember noticing my sunbeam alpine engine push rods moving in circles as i was checking valve lash.
Another reason cam button on non roller Chevy sb bb not necessary.
Thats why you check the face on EVERY lifter , if its not convex , you are going to wipe a lobe ,and it doesn't matter what brand or where you got them either
He said that like 5 times in the video
Uncle Tony you're the greatest you've taught me so much that I did not know about cars engines I love watching your channel I hope I can share it with many people
Last flat tappet cam engine I built the cam did not come with lube, it was just a cheap RV cam. Asked my machinist what to use, he said red wheel bearing grease. So I used wheel bearing grease, cam break in went fine. I think I was lucky rather than good.
That works, just can't gob it on things. It can possibly restrict oil orfices, until the oil in the engine gets hot enough to melt it. In a pinch, I have used Vaseline with success on main and rod bearings, but I have always used break in lube for the cam, I will stop assembly until I gat it, for those.
I have seen it first hand, now. I have a 1983 Chevy Impala, 229 V6, TH200C transmission. The water pump quit last week. Well, while the car was still in town on the trailer carrying it, I stopped at AutoZone and bought a brand new Duralast heavy duty water pump. A little bit of struggle and strain, and I had it back together. Go to start it, and the person helping me says, "Whoa! You have a leak". A closer look revealed that the water pump fitting boss was split! Not a little crack, but a full-on fissure, all the way down
"You're an American. You should never be afraid."
Fantastic, sir.
I removed a cam that was wearing perfectly, still looked new it was supposed to be an HO engine and I was curious to see if it had .407" valve lift. So I started checking the lift and base circles. The base circles were all over the place, and despite the normal wear, the valve lift was only .373" on all, (.250" lobe lift). SO glad I checked it. Logically it must have been a cheap re-grind; not a good idea on a Pontiac because the valve train is non-adjustable.
I normally use the lifter on glass method to check the crown. If I end up using the lifter on lifter method, I always hold the 2 lifters up to a light source the make sure that they're good.
If your lifter bores are in need of attention to get free movement or maybe glazed over. They make little dingle ball hones for lifter bores or a master cylinder hone might work. A quick hone can clean them up and put a little crosshatch in them for better oil retention. Don't want to open them up, just a surface prep. Even a little hand scotch brite job helps or small scotch buffs.
Cheap brake hones are great for this. They will clean up any ridge or buildup at the top of the bore too.
I was hoping Tony would go over cleaning the bores.
Back in the day we swapped cams in engines, used used lifters anywhere and never lost a cam. They are skipping steps and trying to pass the blame.
Been there, done that.
@@terrypetty9822 A funny thing about metal and countries of origin... I just bought an OTC ball joint press and it is now made in the USA. The one I've been using for the past ten years was OTC made in China. Why would it go back the other way? Perhaps quality control, maybe China's over acting lock downs. If I ran a big business China would be axed.
You could also buy a gauge block (not expensive) and if you can "wring" a lifer to it, the lifter is bad because it's too flat. Anything with a suitable crown will not wring to the block's precision edge.
Moog balljoints is a good example , they come pre worn out in the box .
Oil pump. The magazines sold so many people on high volume and high pressure pumps that are NOT necessary for 95% of the engines out there.
Use the paste style cam lube as well. The runny red shit runs right off.
My best advice on this matter is, if you have a known good OEM part. Re use it. Not everything needs replaced during a refreshing. Focus your money on the actual wear items, and buy the best quality you can find. I love using Napa to source my parts, summit gets pretty good stuff too.
I think this applies to all parts these days. not just stuff for MOPAR Ford etc. Check your stuff for Honda, Chevy Ford truck, YUGO, whatever it is. No one can afford these failures.
if you use a stock cam and stock springs you wont have a problem, get a big cam, use lighter valve springs for break in.
You can use the side of another lifter for a straight edge
Good point, as the side is flat.
I hear ya on the cam break in...I just chuck 'em in and straight onto a drive to bed the rings and break in the cam at the same time...Knock on wood my luck continues..
What you can actually do after cam break in if you don't mind a mess, is paint a vertical white line on each pushrod, take the plugs out and wind the motor over on the starter. All the pushrods should rotate. If they don't you've got trouble and there's nothing you can do about it at that point but at least you know.
You can do it with valve covers cut open for the purpose and actually run the engine in 5 second increments but it probably works better on Wedge engines rather than Hemis.
“Price is a one time thing, quality is a lifetime thing”.
Zig Ziglar
Paul from FabRats recently had a new cam that had the lobes machined about 1/4" offset from where they should have been. Caused the cam to eat up the lifters, chew up the lobes and you can guess where all the metal went. You can see the video on his youtube channel.
not only do the lifters, turn, but cross hatch patterns on cylinder walls cause the rings to rotate untill they get seated, and they move but its much,like may be FEW THO
Again with the Cadillacs. Every HT4100 engine I tore down had all the ring gaps lined up. Didn't seem to matter, but of course I always spaced them out again. On a modern, precisely machined engine IMO the rings will walk all over the place.
When you drop the lifter through the lifter bore, make sure too that it doesn't rock side to side. Name brand cam kit, lifters, cam, springs, keepers and retainers for a 350 SBC. Lifterswere .080" smaller than minimum diameter.
So much of what you said sounds just like what Scooter Brothers told me, almost 30 years ago. Good stuff!
Yet another masterclass from the Master.
Mille Grazie!!
Just had my whole transmission rebuilt and had to wait a month for parts. I did get a warranty but now I'm concerned it may not last much longer than the warranty
I made the mistake of getting a white box special carb for my 1969 f100 and it wouldn’t stay running took the carb apart and they didn’t put a needle and seat in it
I assume it was the motorcraft clones from amazon/ebay? I say those and read the reviews which were what i expected for a "new" $75 carb.
You got the racing version. Only Runs at wide open throttle and has less parts so it weighs less.
Anyone mess with a new out of the box Hurst competition shifter. Man......the quality today is just deplorable. So much slop in the assembly and it's supposed to be new. Better off finding one used from the 70's and just rebuild it. Bit it's not just automotive. As a guitarist, there's a reason Gibson has been back in it's heels for a while. Quality got worse and worse and worse to the point no one will lay down 3K for a new Les Paul with problems. Gibson, came to their stark realization and had to admit in a press release that they had gotten sloppy and recommitted itself to their customer. But a lot moved on.
Getting ready to find out on my buds 71 Charger
It's been that way for over 10 years....Overseas JUNK! Lets go BRANDON!
I also work in music and electronics for the studio world and the problem exist here as well..bad or wrong parts is epidemic and corporations stop supporting older equipment before they are even old enough to be out of service life. They want you to just toss it and buy new..Expensive units too that fail in a few years or so.
Check out Gear Box Videos.hes in fl.tell ya anything u need to know..also sells improvement parts on his site.a very good guy and very trustworthy.
@@robinarrington5498 Both him and automatic transmissions (hiram) are worth the watch. For what it's worth Gearboxvideo is run by Paul Cangialosi who came up with the Jaguar transmissions used for racing back in the 90's, he does know his shit. He has a few vids on Hurst and how to rebuild and adjust them.
Edit: thought i would post the vid about the Jaguars from Paul's UA-cam channel: ua-cam.com/video/mT3NscNlmPg/v-deo.html
Fun stuff.
I once read a few years ago in an nhra tech story that on a top fuel engine the cam lobes for the front cylinders and rear cylinders are ground with a slight offset to compensate for the camshaft actually twisting under full throttle. Incredible to think about the internal forces involved to cause that problem and thought involved to find a solution to it.
I remember reading that all of the Big Three manufacturers had big electric motors to hook any given engine up to, to simulate the engine at high load, to see how the metal and parts would fare. I also imagine that if they had clear valve covers and a clear intake cover (in place of the intake and carburetor assembly), that would give quite a load of insight into how the metal could distort or warp under high load, or even under normal operating condition. I thought that was interesting.
I built my first engine back in 1989. I always knew about the crown on the lifters and how they rotated and all but I had no idea about the taper on the cam lobes! I have read hot rod - car craft - super chevy etc since I was a kid and this topic was never mentioned! Thanks again for fantastic info!
I agree with every recommendation in this video. When it comes to proper inspection & break-in for camshafts - UTG is 100% on point!
This is where I turn into one of those know-it-all nerds in the comment section, but I think this is important, especially if anyone runs into cam problems that are difficult to figure out.
The camshaft is retained or “pushed” back into the block by the force exerted from the 45 degree angle on the oil pump drive gear on the camshaft. The more oil pressure there is, the more resistance there is, which in turn tends to push the camshaft towards the rear of the engine. The cam sprocket of has a machined surface which holds the cam in place & prevents the cam from “walking” back too far into the block. It’s quite possible that there are directional forces pushing the camshaft (front or back) which are exerted by the valve springs through the lifters as UTG described, but I think the forces exerted through the oil pump drive are greater & easily measurable…
Tony Tony Tony...... Please buy/build some shelving... For goodness sake. ... Bits all over the floor and , build some workbenches with steel tops... It will make your life so much easier. Great programs, great knowledge. Keep it up
“I don’t want to talk about zinc in the oil, I want to talk about the mechanical stuff…”. BRAVO! It’s so easy to blame the oil, but IMO that isn’t the problem. 1) if you’re smart, you can still buy oils with more than enough ZDDP. Nobody says you have to use supermarket Castrol, Pennzoil, Valvoline, etc. intended for new cars. People still see failures with high zinc oils. 2) ZDDP wasn’t even a thing until the 60s. A lot of people don’t seem to know that even into the 70s, joe blow on the street could (and did!) still buy and use oil without ZDDP. Lifter failures weren’t rampant. Therefore: It. Is. Not. The. Oil!
I've had numerous times that my buddies call me after they wiped out a new cam. It doesn't take but a few minutes that they had no idea what they should have done. I hate it for them. Now take the engine apart and clean it! Yep, that new cam lobe(s) are spread throughout the oil passages. Tom, I hope the younger generation is paying attention, we're a dying breed.
Back in 2011 bought a custom ground Nitrided cam. I installed it in 2013 and one of the journals was .0015 over size. I was so upset because I bought it a few years before installing it. I called Gab at Comp, he had me ship it back and they corrected it very quickly. I used comp solid EDM lifters, Comp assembly lube & Comp break in oil additive. It is a weekend warrior and still going strong.
Just done a successful Cam run in yesterday, with a good second hand used cam, and near new used lifters that were taken out of two other Engines. I will do a video of how i check the cam and lifters.
Finding parts for my diplomat is already an indiana jones worthy treasure hunt. Finding parts that are worth putting in it just makes it extra fun.
😂😂😂
Check your lifter bores! I use a stone type wheel cylinder hone to dress them up then I do a thorough cleaning.
thank you! you explain everything so clearly - no matter how complex the topic.
5.2 Durango; roller cams are great. Used the old lifters over again on new cam. Didn't even use brake in lube, just ran the starter with the coil off for 2 minutes to lube it. Ran it at 2000 RPM for like 2 minutes and I was done. Drove it 500 miles the following week. Everything is just fine.
Don't forget the bad points. Excellent information 99% of people did not know. I didn't know this.
As always thank you so much for posting this video. I'm definitely one of the people whose apprehensive about building this engine. I have everything I need except the cam and lifters. And apprehension is the big reason. Have an awesome weekend UncleTony and Uncle Kathy
I like to use weaker springs for the break in. Good information from this video.
Hey Tony , I know a guy that that has the Harley engine that you are looking for . it is actually still on a bike , or at least the last time I seen it , it was a project he was going to build . but I believe he ever had gotten back to it . But it is a kick only , and I think it is 1974 with the right side Shifter. .. Soon as see him I ask about for you . Tim from Wisconsin
Always clean prep and check. You can never go wrong there. I know guys that just swap out cams and think they can just go out and rip 7-8 rpm. A 5.0 mustang just got laid down because of negligence and supposed built engine. It made it through one good street block burnout and that was it. And they are blaming It on cam company when this person bought the wrong cam. Around here in ky it's hard to help some people. They really honestly believe they know it all!! And have no uttet clue. Live and live learn I tried to help but some just don't listen
I had a Lunati Voodoo flat tappet cam installed in my 383 Chevy. No problems.
Great video! Loads of information but simple and concise, please make more videos like this one. You truly are performing a valuable public service by sharing your knowledge. Thank you, and keep up the good work!
"...come around this side."
-- Jeez, Tony - I almost got out of bed!
Tony that is a great idea for a video.
How to get your distributor “dead nuts spot on “ before firing for the first time !
I have always got it close enough to start right up but then tweak it with the timing light up above 2000 rpm when running a new cam..
Regards
Gary..
I love the vibe of these videos, add a pull or five from a pint bottle of mccormicks and you'd remind me of the guys at my neighbor's workshop who would talk me through automotive shit as a kid/teen.
This couldn't have come out at a better time uncle tony ! I've learned more watching your videos than I could ever imagine in all my 42 years 🤘🤘🤘🤘🤘
If you're skairt to put in a new juice cam, change the rocker arm ratio :) Or hit the junkyard for an OEM roller lifter engine.
I did Cam swap some old small block Chevys when I was younger just didn't know any better shoving stick in there. Everything back together go Rev the snot out of it no break-in no nothing never had a problem until the last 5 years even doing everything right hi zinc oil and everything at 3 go flat not all the same manufacturer right off the bat motors coming out
I’d love to put big mutha thumpr cam in my bb Ford. Previous owner removed it for a small lift one but I’m not sure he marked the lifters correctly and to buy a new set seems dangerous. So here I sit starring at the box wondering what it would be like. It sucks
I worked at an engine exchange company for a few years and was never taught this older engines w out roller lifters wow I’m just mind fucked right now great information please don’t stop with the knowledge I really enjoy the videos I learn something every time 👍
Personally I blame Uncle Squirrel
My question uncle Tony is, but what if, now this is according to the previous owner, the motor was professionally built ran and properly broken in, but then sat and the last time it ran was 15 years ago. I turned it over by hand and got oil to come up to the rockers. Buuuut 2 valves were sticking 'exhaust' tapped them a bit and they started moving. Did a couple of crank overs with the starter, but haven't fired it up yet. I'm just thinking rust on lifters and valves, I can actually see some push rods spinning but not all. Chevy 350
that shop is looking tight and bright tony. big change from that old dark garage i seen you in not long ago
I still feel like I got lucky with our 230 rebuild, white box rock auto cam and lifters. Good thing the lifters come in sets of fours because I noticed on the base of the lifter some pitting, like when you weld something then grind it smooth and it has some small pinholes, thats what it looked like! I lightly sanded the bottom edge of each lifter because it felt like a sharp edge to me, honestly it should be a radius, dont know why they are made to a sharp edge, I feel like a radius would really help. but anyway I sanded them and then put them in the bock without thinking. My friend was helping me and he did the same process on his 84 302 and had no problems. but then we had to bring it back to the machine shop, (I measured my clearances wrong, all was good) but they said the lifter bores would need to be honed, they are too tight from the rust build up from sitting in my garage over winter. I fixed it myself with some sand paper wrapped around a socket. When I was finished the lifter moved easily in the bore with almost no resistance. I think that was key, and using the high zinc break in oil, and not just an additive. Because who knows how well it will mix, especially when you have to run the engine at 2k RPM right off the bat. I also rotated the engine over by hand A LOT while setting valves, because I got confused, the shop pressed the cam gear on 180deg. off but it didn't make a difference once I figured that out. Please check out my videos and see what you thing as to how I got so lucky with my white box parts, or if people are just doing things wrong, and not noticing bad parts. Car has maybe 1000 miles on now with no issues. The scarry part is I did not check for lifter crown or for lobe taper. Yikes.
Ever since reading some o Smokey Yunicks books about engine building ive made a habit of honing the lifter bores with a small brake hone or scotchbrite pad on a split rod in a drill to polish the surface in the bores. I would make sure to only do when you are going to clean the whole block but so far it has worked well but I normally use a roller setup for anything with spring pressures and rpms higher than stock . The way i see it is a little extra oil on the lobes with more clearance in the bores shouldnt amount to much hp loss from windage. Thanks UT
I bought a brand new roller master chain, right out of the box it had more slop then the previous 25 year old 200,000 mile roller master chain it was replacing.
Build a slant 6 for the motorcycle!!
A height gauge comes in hand for a LOT of measuring on engines or any other machined parts:-) Great tips Tony!
I built a small set of rollers that can adjust themselves for rotating shafts,to measure straightness. Works for cams too. Found the idea on Keith Fenner's Turnwrite millworks channel I think it's called. You can buy his sets or make your own. They even work with tapered shafts. Very happy with his design. If your into that kinda stuff.
When I rebuilt an old 327, I had with 0 budget and installed a brand new cam, on special $50.00 back in 1970 with used lifters from a newer Z28 and no problems and it ran great! lucky me.
Not luck. You had good parts back then! Who ever heard of a cam or lifters going flat before 15?years ago
@@devillockj not entirely true, cams going flat had been a pretty common thing even 30+ years ago. Alot of the time they would go bad from people not doing the break in or having too much valve spring pressure upon initial run in. Also around the very late 80s and early 90s a good majority of motor oils had the zinc removed and there was a massive amount of late 70s early 80s cars with the factory cams going flat like crazy and people found out the zinc was needed for those older engines but by the early 90s most manufacturers had switched to roller cams by that point and due to the strict epa emissions laws there are no "street legal oils" sold with zinc anymore, the only way they can sell zinc oil is to legally classify it as "racing oil" or "for classic vehicle use only". And alot of people still believe that diesel oil has enough zinc for a flat tappet engine which is absolutely not true anymore, around 2008ish when the DPF systems were being introduced into the diesel word they removed almost all the zinc from diesel oils to protect the DPF filters, some diesel oils do contain small amounts of zinc but definitely not enough to keep a flat tappet cam alive and some diesel oils have no zinc at all. My point is that even though there are alot of bad parts put there today, not everything from the past was better. The biggest issue i have personally seen these days with cam breakins gone wrong is from people using the wrong oil.
The old AC Delco lifter from the 60's and 70's had Stellite faces....Bulletproof material....Best of the best! I paid $20/lifter for a LS-6 restoration once to install OEM hardware...Last time they were listed in a GM catalogue the "585" edge orifice lifters retailed for $31 each....Whats a trashed motor from a failed cam worth when its "numbers matching" and has $3000 of parts/machine work in it (these are early 90's pricing)
@@briang4470 the petroleum quality institute of America tested ck4 shell rotella t4 and phos was 1034 and zinc was 1130! phos/zinc in 1967 was 1100-1200! sum like chevron have lower levels.
@@jakemichael8586 do you know when they did that test? If that is in the new rotella that you can buy now I would be extremely surprised, because all on road diesel engines made after 2008 come from the factory with an egr valve and a DPF system which can be damaged by certain metals and other materials such as zinc and sulfur which has been almost completely eliminated from on road diesel fuel which has caused a whole bunch of fuel injector and pump failures. And I figured by now all the common off the shelf diesel oil would have almost no zinc content just like most gasoline engine oils have practically no zinc or phosphorus. With these old classic rides I like to use valvoline VR1 or use some of the joe gibs or "driven" racing oils. In a pinch you could use non detergent conventional oil and run a bottle of zinc additive which I myself and some other people I know have done so in the past with great success.
Uncle Tony- Can you do a short video on changing a full set of Hydraulic Flat tappet lifters, measuring for custom pushrods, setting preload and best practices for breaking in the lifters on a 426 Hemi with stock adjustable rockers. Thanks
Nice hit that one right out of the park summing up the facts
Uncle Tony I use to break my motors in with cam break in oil from comp and other manufacturers cam break in oil.. I've lost a few cams since them.. however for the last 5 years ive been breaking in my motors in with Valvoline VR1 10w30. I have yet to lose a flat tappet cam or lifter since then. I've built at least 40 motors with this in the last 4 years problem free
Don't brake in a new cam with new double or triple valve springs.. brake in with the outer spring after the cam has completed the brake in period install the extra springs.. its a pain i know but ( it will save your cam shaft )
I'm so jealous of you you know everything
Perfect timing on this video UT! I want to do a top end kit on my 460 this winter and now know what to look for. Thanks for sharing. Cheers from Motown.
Some where on UA-cam is a guy explaining a flat tappet cam, he honestly believes that a tappet just rides over the lobe, not understanding that the contact patch on a lifter is very, very small. It literally rides on the outside edge of the lifter causing it to spin, it might be a good idea to mic the lifters and the bores to find the correct clearance for each one. You can always lightly hone a lifter bore for the correct clearance. I always advise only outer springs and low ratio rockers for cam break-in.
I believe most American flat tappets have a 32 inch spherical radius on the bottom .
I use a brass wire bottle brush to zip thru all lifter bores. Works great.
If I find rust I use a wheel cylinder hone, seem to work too.
I really appeachiate this video cuz i'm gonna cam swap my 95 chevy and I was not sure about some things but you put my mind at ease.
Lifter bind is bad, but if they are to loose you will have low oil pressure problems on an engine like that big block mopar.
I know it sucks spending the money on a roller cam but we have to face it that its been over 30 years since flat tappets were put out in new vehicles with any great quantity. Production quality is just going to keep going down on lifters.
People showing up for the pay check, not actually to do there job that would require a brain wave of some sort.
Another example of Tony showing us al that the devil lives in the details!
Do you ever read your comments? I've watched every one of your videos and I have never seen a like or comment on you tube. I hope you read them because they are important. I think you are the best auto guy on you tube. Thanks I've learned a bunch from you
He does occasionally show up in the comments, but he does live Q&A shows on Wednesday and Sunday nights where viewers can ask him anything.
Tony from 1 old school mopar guy in north Georgia to one in Tn.
would you explain to people the differance in a late 71 early 72 400 203 casting thick wall block
I run these and have made close to 1000 hp with them and they live and out perform any stock mopar block i have ever came across
I know the history of these beautys but kept it a secret for 30 years time to let the thick webbing out of the bag
Awesome tips for success! Thank you so much! I did a cam last year and everything seems ok but now I'm sitting here thinking...were the lifters lose enough? Ive always kept them on the snug side to prevent excessive oil loss through this area..in Buicks it matters..as well as keeping oil from dripping on rotating mass. Now im contemplating snatching intake and seeing what it looks like after a year. Thanks for another fact filled video buddy!
The 540 rat oil blog has a lot of good info on engine oil as well.