I Used Frederick The Great's Tactics To Dominate The Battlefield!
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- Опубліковано 30 лип 2024
- In 371 B.C. Epaminondas employed the Oblique Order to win the battle of Leuctra. Over 1000 years later, Frederick the Great (King IN Prussia) used this tactic to win many great battles! But can the Oblique order be used in modern video games to win a battle? Mount and Blade 2 Bannerlord is the perfect game to try it out!
0:00 - Intro
0:23 - The Setup for this test
0:38 - 1st Attempt (lost badly)
1:07 - 2nd Battle (Better initial contact, still bad loss)
1:39 - 3rd Battle (Strengthen the center, Pyrrhic victory)
2:08 - 4th Battle (Strong flank, but weak center, slight victory)
2:38 - 5th Battle (Shield wall, strong flank, decent victory)
3:21 - 6th Battle (BEST result of 40+ attempts)
4:11 - F1 + F3 (Sun Tzu's Tactics - Baseline for comparison)
Mods used for this battle:
RTS Camera
RBM
De Re Militari
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POV:
You're a soldier in Friedrich's army but they forgot to give you your Musket and you're just stuck with your Bayonet.
Lol don't show up to a gun fight with sticks I guess :D thanks for watching!
Theban and alexand2er used before the prussians😊
Ah the "ol reach around" technique
Lol Frederick would approve of this I think :D
I wonder why they didnt do that
😂😂
Legendary
In ancient Greek hoplite battles, the right side was usually where they positioned the best troops, and they would focus on attacking the enemy's left side. Greek battles would often see the lines rotate anti-clockwise as the right side of each army pushed against the weaker left sides. The reason for this I think is, they placed the weaker units on the left side because it was more protected, shields being carried in the left hand, but also the right side would have shield cover as they attempted to outflank, where as to outflank on the left you are exposing yourself to missiles.
I was under the impression it was the opposite, such as Alexander the Great putting his elite silver units on the left. For exactly why you said shields are held in the left hand so two phalanxes facing eachother would drift to the right in order to keep their right flanks being attacked, so keeping the left flank from collapsing was absolutely essential
@@BrightWendigo Alexander wasn't using an old fashioned hoplite army, his tactics employed heavy use of cavalry, which took the place of the elite right wing in traditional greek armies and Alexander personally led from the right. He also had his elite Hypaspist infantry with him on the right, they would be tasked with assaulting the open flank after the cavalry pushed through to attack the rear of the enemy.
Additionally, the army was mostly pikemen, which were even more susceptible to flanking than hoplites, meaning the left wing was also a place of honour by this time. The army would employ hoplites, peltasts and cavalry to protect the pike blocks from the left side, and the same oblique order was intended, with the refused left side. By the time of Friedrick the Great, doctrine would stress the importance of elite units on both flanks, as this is where the heaviest fighting usually occurred.
Well they would often just sacifice the left flank, the stro g right would be save from flanking for the longesz
@@Harrier_DuBois yes the left flank was a place of honor which is why the best soldiers, Alexander’s silver shields included. We’re always placed on the left. To hold the flank, while the bulk of the army was sent on the right to flank their enemy. This is why formations tended to “drift right” before they even met. As I said.
@@BrightWendigo no traditionaly it was the right flank
The oblique order was created in Ancient Greece. Not old Fred’s creation. I think it was epimodias of Thebes that created it and was the reason Thebes was eventually able to beat the Spartans
That and the sacred Band. Also they placed their strongest on the left to defeat the best Spartan units on the right of the other line. Those fellas are some of the most legendary soldiers in the ancient world and they fell to other epic soldiers (Alexander his pops and their soldiers).
Well, unless he edited it in later, the description does say that.
Fred also invented the double envelopment 😂
@@aaronharkins4331 I would hate to fight those guys. Its like hey man we gotta fight atleast put your 🍆 away😂
Frederick II invented the Grand Battery. And yet people still claim it was a Napoleonic innovation
setting up these scenarios and trying to get the AI to cooperate must be like herding cats sometimes lol. Fun video. Hope you're still having fun with Project Zomboid.
Lol yeah I know what you mean. I try to not mess with the AI side too much in case anyone wants to try to use this in an actual campaign. I was thinking about playing both sides for a battle sometime, actually testing formations rather than F1 F3 like the AI lol
Yeah for sure, I'm finishing up KCD recording in the next week or so and then it will be back to PZ!!
Dude is literally playing total war bannerlord
soo watching this it feels like you're going about it the wrong way. I think you're focusing too much on having the elites being on the flank when honestly they should remain in the center to make sure that the line does not fall. The oblique order (from my understanding) is more about having lopsided mass, the quality matters less as the idea is to stall for time in the center as the higher mas flank gets through the enemy and starts rolling up the line.
if you make it more abstract it's the same tactic of trying to surround the enemy through positioning that so many other tactics rely on as well, the zulu bull and horns, Hannibals concave, hell even the concept of having cavalry fighting for the flanks so the victor can swoop in and support the main fight falls under the same concept.
You're right. They are doing this wrong.
Exactly. The flanking unit doesn't need to be strong, they just need to get behind the enemy. That's what makes them effective. You don't need to be strong to kill the enemy from behind.
There are other issues as well. Friedrich II often had numerical inferiority, but quality superiority - especially in regards to discipline without collapsing. That discipline is what would buy the time to overwhelm the flank. Straight 1:1 in both numbers and quality, and ignoring the effects of artillery and cavalry mean that we shouldn't expect this to work the way Friedrich II made it work
Hey, old army veteran here. Strat, I love your videos!
In the real world, every resource on a battlefield should have an intent. Example: disrupt, turn, fix, or block. (and many others) what I like about your stuff is you are starting to go beyond the straight head-to-head, touching on the art of “the subtleties” that made great commanders differentiate themselves. The talent was in the nuance and skill with which they applied their craft and the thin line they navigated between failure and success. This kind of video is enjoyable to watch. I think “Kings and Generals” used to do something like this too. In a short form. Thank you for all the time and hard work producing this.
Thanks, I'm glad you enjoy these! I do watch a lot of Kings and Generals, among 10+ other history channels lol It's really fun to try to apply them to a simulated model to see how they hold up. They definitely don't work like they would IRL because there are a lot of missing things like fear, stamina, internal politics, etc. but it's still fun to try :)
Another reason as to the success of the Oblique order that couldn't quite be replicated here in the game, is that the weaker flank would advance much slower toward the enemy than the stronger one, delaying the engagement as much as possible. This is why your delaying tactic of retreating your troops worked well, as your weaker flank would have to avoid/delay battle as best they can.
Thanks so much for these historical tactics videos, just awesome! Please keep them coming!
Btw, please try to describe the commands as much as possible, it's really helpful
Ok, the "Schiefe Schlachtordnung" used by him in battle of Leuthen. I really like your ideas and implementation in videos.
The key is, that any Prussian soldier was of high quality, regardless of battle position 😂
Thanks for watching, I'm glad you enjoy them! I know it's not a great recreation of the Oblique order lol but it's the best I could do with the game :)
These are fun videos to see real world tactics in action. Keep up the good work!
Glad you like them!
I believe a tactic like this was first used at The Battle of Leuctra in 371 BC theres a great video from BaBattles on it if ur interested.
IRL the bulk of the enemy army will be expecting an attack at the same time or shortly after the loaded flank engaged and would be more hesitant to race out of position when the centre and right don't engage, so I think you did pretty well getting this to mostly work.
Banger as usual
Obviously you're the one doing this thus you already know, but this is really cool seeing the strategies come to life
I'm glad you enjoyed it! It's fun seeing the history channels cover tactics and then trying them out in an actual simulation
i am not sure that counts as an Oblique Order tactic. definitely an Echelon into a Envelopment, and it worked pretty well. it seems similar to the Battle of Leuctra, which gave rise to the Oblique Order tactic, and made Echelon into a normal thing. they really didn't cooperate as they didn't match your lines, so you had to constantly reposition and ended up with left over units that did flanking stuff, which was bad for the AI, but not really Oblique Order type stuff.
Yeah the AI was all over the place for this battle. I think taking away their archers and cavalry messed with their ability to fight lol they just F1 F3
This isn’t Fredrick’s the greats invention it’s an ancient battle order
Nowhere in the video, title or description does it state he invented it. Using/adopting a tactic doesn't mean he was the origination, those are two different things. I'm all for criticisms - we all know I make a ton of mistakes lol, but this comment seems like a lazy/cheap shot that's not remotely accurate.
This tactic worked amazingly in Roma Surrectum for the original Rome Total War, especially if you were playing as the Greeks and loaded up that left flank with all the more mobile units, with cavalry to protect the right wing
Maaan my day was boring and there you upload making it way better.
I'm glad you enjoyed it!
I bet the results would've been even more decisive with any other infantry type
Yeah I think so. I was trying to use spears only to emulate the ancient Greeks who developed this tactic
@@Strat-Guides unfortunately bannerlord spears are just trash
@@Morbak546 Would be in history too if all human beings were idiots who couldn't poke from behind the guys in front or choke up on their spears. You'd think spears could pick up some of that magic armor piercing capability the archers all seem to have!
@@TheMelnTeam yes exactly
@@Morbak546 in the Realistic battle mod he is using in this video spears are very good if not the best
Great video, as always! Though us ancient Greek sources to present the oblique order.
You need to put them in shildwall,
And drag the heavy flank into the enemy pushing them back. This way casulties will mount giving you the edge wirh Reserves or the pushback (shildwall with shilds will allow you to flank with reserves/ by charging with the superior numbers
When the engagement start push your left forward about half a line, your second unit on the left follow them they will start to engage the Centers right causing a gap in the right and center of the enemy line. As you contine your advance on the 3 unitsghe second pushes and opens the gap pushing behind the center. The third left unit will continue to support the 2nd and first. Their right should break as you envelop the center. I would probanly do it with shield infantry on the right followed by shock infantry. I perfer mameluke guards as they are slightly faster than line breakers and will push the created gap quickly.
Thats probably how I would attempt this. I would also change fhe 2nd and 3rd line to blocks because I want the guards to wedge the gap open and the 3rd would cover any gaps in the firsts line and slide through the gap and envelop once thw first has won its fight.
Looks just like what Thebes did to crush Sparta at the battle of Leuctra. They were even outnumbered
the good old fashion tradin' space for time
Try the “horns of the bull” formation used by the zulu
I have been just sticking with a heavily armed Center. Mix of melee and ranged on flanks that can either sit and whittle or rush in and envelop. I have a large cavalry unit and then a very small one that follows me personally. My personal guard will often skirmish smaller enemy cavalry formations and the larger one can meet their bigger cavalry formations or go for a devastating rear charge. The small personal guard unit of elite cavalry is really versatile and useful.
Friedrich had the benefit of low intensity vs. high intensity engagement. weapons could be fired beyond their most effective range and tactical retreats could be used to both control that distance and benefit the advance of the aggressive flank like Hannibal's center at the battle of Cannae. The most challenging and elaborate part of this strategy seems to be the delaying action
I think you'd do better with menavlions or falxman as your elite pole arm unit, as pikemen struggle against other infantry. Great video though as always!
Love it.
Ok I know the drill, like first, then watch =)
.. yeah, the drill is holding up well
Lol I appreciate that! I hope you don't feel pressured to like the video first as I need to get both positive and negative feedback in order to making good videos :) I'm all for the support, but the best support anyone can give me is honest and upfront feedback! Thank you for helping me out by the way!
Reminds me of when I read about "The Oblique Line" in an old Warhammer magazine. Cant remember if it was White Dwarf or the other one. Like this basicly
-- -- -- -- _
Ive been using it or something similar in wargames ever since. Often at both ends of the line. And rolling up the enemy flanks with fresh undamaged units. Works even better with guns rather than spearmen, especially since you are more likely to hit something when crossing the T by attacking in line into their flank.
You need to hold the weak center and right flank back from engagement as long as possible while making sure to your strong left flank marches well ahead of the rest of the line to engage the enemy first. Oblique order has a high probability of failure if the whole line engages all at once.
I have been curious for a while about whether firing lines make sense for crossbowmen, and would be curious to see it tested. Would 3 lines of crossbowmen that are positioned at increasing elevation the further back you get, and are with a 3 second interval from front to back given the "fire at will" command, perform better than one single group of crossbowmen that all fire at the same time? Not really in the perview of medival battlefield tactics (more of a red-coat volley really) but could be fun to see tested regardless.
Yo yo yo yo. The first group to use this as far as I know were the Theban Generals Pelopidas and Epominondas (spelling may be off). They literally used this to defeat SPARTANS, the only infantry to do so AFAIK. People need to stop sleeping on these legends
Yup! I cited then I'm the description. Sadly UA-cam won't promote Epaminondas so I had to go with a more common name that also used the tactic for the title
@@Strat-Guideswhy is that?!
Did he write “politically incorrect things?” Or did some modern day movement incorporate him and cause his name to be restricted or something?
Seems so odd for UA-cam to be so particularly funky about a rather obscure general in the grand scheme.
(No offense to the legend of the general.)
@@rehm402 it's because he's not mainstream. Very few people have heard of Epominondas, so it won't rank well with the UA-cam algorithm. It's a sad reality of making videos controlled by AI algorithms
Try the "Concentrated Center" tactic. I think you will love this.
Oh shit, a video uploaded two hours ago? Looks like I finally caught up with u early.
Thanks for watching!
I love this
For a hot second I was looking at the thumbnail thinking I was watching a total war by Strat.
Haha maybe in the near future? I do miss playing the TW series...
youtube really didn't want me watching this, had to go to the channel to see it
I wonder if it has to do with only posting a couple videos in the last 2 weeks? I had to spend about 30+ hours finishing up taxes and couldn't work on anything in that period :( I appreciate you taking the time to look!
The tactic used is first used in Ancient Greece, and only became relevant again due Fredricks time.
I LOVE these real military tactics video as someone who played total war their whole life. Cool to see these work in bannerlord too!
I'm glad you like these! Yeah TW is such an amazing franchise
Hello again, Magnificent Strat. Would you be so to tell me, what kind of troops are those in the intro?
Thanks for watching! I was using the mod De Re Militari, so they were from that. I don't recall the exact unit name though
i think your main problem is that with oblique order the line is split more or less 50/50 whereas the majority of your line was stretched out and weak and only a small elite force was placed on the flank. what you shouldve done is use and even number of divisions, place a quarter of them on half the frontline and 3 quarters on the other half, then advance on the heavier flank whilst standing your ground on the other, rout, roll up and win
Were those super long pikes a handicap for your troops? It seems like they wouldn't work well face to face, but behind the main line they should clean up nicely.
They still hit hard even when it's a "handle hit". If you look at the KDR stats for the high tier units, they usually outperformed the spearmen by a huge margin! Probably shouldn't be that way lol but that's how the game works I guess
Can you make a video telling the full story of your Harald viking campaign?
In the oblique order, u want ur weak side to avoid engaging for as long as possible
The voice crack lol classy touch.
It happens lol
If I'm not mistaken, Epaminondas from Thebes did used similar tactics to defeat the Spartans.
Yup! I put that in the description - sadly UA-cam won't promote the video if I lead with Epaminondas, so I went with a more recognizable figure that adopted the tactic
So if my memory is correct on this, I believe Friedrich had his stacked left, move forward ahead of his center and right and delayed engagement of his center and his right as long as possible, while his stacked left crushed his enemies right. I don’t know if you tried this but it should work.
I love watching your vids, just one question. How do you seperate your troops into separate divisions? I'm able to move troops around after a battle starts, but not before. Is there any way to do this Warband style?
Thanks! If you have more than 20 troops (or 25, I don't recall), you'll get the pre-battle screen where you can move troops and companions around. If you're not getting that screen, it might be because you're not the leader of the army that you're fighting in. Hope that helps!
What game is this?
@@hamdaanfarrukh2424 mount and blade 2 Bannerlord
Even though there is a lot less of them, it would of been interesting to see if placing the higher tier troops on the right to hold line while the weaker troops use their number superiority to win the left flank. I cant remember what he did in this battle, but hoplite armies of the day always had the best troops on the right side as well
Interesting idea, I didn't try that out! One thing I noticed with the AI, they mix everyone in a huge blog and a lot of their elite pikemen were stuck in the back of the line, not fighting at all. So my thought was to have 100% of my pikes engaged to have some advantage. Maybe they can be in their own formation, but placed directly in front of the spear lines (close enough so they don't get enveloped)?
@@Strat-Guides yea it always going to be hard with the AI as most of the time what it does doesnt make sense. Its hard to say as you have much more experience in the game as talking from a real life point of view wouldn't help. But if you mix the pike with the other inf in 1 formation to hold the line, they might have more chance? if not put the pike inf into a line 1 deep, right behind the other inf, the pikes can help from behind while the medium inf take the charge and then stack the rest as you did with no elite, even if they cant push you can always flank on the left
could you do the echelon formation? I think it would work better than oblique order. besides, the best results were more similar to echelon into ingulfment rather than an oblique order.
Yeah for sure! I've got pike and shot in the works for next week, but echelon is coming up soon after :)
I don't understand why your main line isn't in shield wall? You said the point was for them to delay engagement whilst you outflank, and RBM shield wall makes the AI super passive and defensive, and the compacting of the line mitigates some of the local numerical disadvantage.
I am wondering if there is a way to divide the army into more groups. At present, I am leading a party of approximately 300 soldiers. However, I am finding it challenging to divide them sufficiently to make optimal use of their the troops. As the game progresses, I find that the eight slots are not enough. I mean i could use more than 3 groups of infantry or cavalry. Furthermore, I would like to mention that while the tactics you have demonstrated are amazing, regrettably, they are not always practical to use during the campaign.
One thing I noticed with using more groups was that going up against the enemy's huge death ball (single giant formation) meant the smaller groups would get swallowed up quickly and it was really difficult to stay on top of retreating them all, which is why my best battle used only 3 groups. It's definitely possible that using more groups would give better results, but after 40+ attempts I knew it was beyond my capabilities :(
Thanks for watching!
I would enjoy if we could stab while the shields are up for reduced damage so that way we could see actual lines of combat attacking and holding ground.
That would be amazing! They would probably need to rework shields too as they cover areas outside of their physical shape (like a forcefield lol) making it possible to stab an arm, leg or head behind the shield.
@Strat Gaming But what that would do is make shields more relevant instead of seeing most soldiers dying without having hardly used their shields haha
I think Pikemen are a much better choice for holding the centre than spears. You're right in theory to use superior quality to overwhelm the flank, but you're choice of troop is what is holding the strategy back.
using rbm makes this tactic much better because i think that in vanilla bannerlord the weaker flank would be run trough in seconds
I find it is most effective when making your center your heaviest/elite troops as you usually have less of those generally, and stack your weaker more expendable troops on the side you wish to push. The elite troops should be able to last the longest and hold a line, while your numerical superiority of lighter troops should be able to flood past the enemy's side and wrap around their main battle-line. Plainly speaking, you don't want to use your strongest infantry to push, but to prevent the enemy from advancing, as elite troops often fair better in formation and meeting lines head-on. It is the cavalry, skirmishers, and light infantry who need to be actively seeking to flank. Because in terms of skill, a heavily armored knight could hold his ground against 20 poorly armed peasants attacking from the front, but even a heavily armored knight can do little against 20 peasants beating him from all angles with clubs if he can't use his shield in all directions.
When trying to make the oblique order accidentally makes you do Hannibal's (and later Rome's) weakened center
u know how good ur video is?? I kinda forget this is banner lord, not total war. for the sake of simplicity, banner lord needs to add the ability to manage formation. like 10 steps forward and backward, the weak line can be easily handled if this kind of command is added. and these kinds of things can be added to tactics skills, and companion tactic skills. so the better tactic skills we have, the more versatile our troop's formation
I appreciate that! Totally agree, they could simplify things and make it easier to manager larger armies. Right now, it's encouraged by the game to have 1 mass formation of similar type units and just smash formations into each other.
Hey how do I make the AI attack or bait them? Even when I'm out numbered they just stay back and shield wall and mount archers on a hill totally negating to attack shit is so annoying
How are you getting RTS camera to work im having difficulty are you on a different game version.
Man that spear is giant you could hit an eagle in the air
you should do some of these in dell'arte della guerra when it comes out
Yeah for sure, that mod looks amazing!
Great video.. can you try the inverted wedge tactic used by Hannibal?
He already did:
ua-cam.com/video/TZ4-C4xN1Aw/v-deo.html
I tried that one actually! ua-cam.com/video/TZ4-C4xN1Aw/v-deo.html&ab_channel=StratGaming
@@Strat-Guides my bad..
I've been wondering for some time, how do you change your troups formation mid-battle? Is it in the base game or with some mod?
its a standard feature of the game. Select the unit and then hold down left mouse click and drag to show how the troops will face/form. Use the F key to choose particular formation you want them to form. (this might vary depending on what key bindings you have. I use the legacy command system so the formation list is F3 but the default might be F4 or F2 can't remember)
Select the unit you want to split or combine, press F3 then F5. That brings up the pop up, select which group to move the United to, move the slider for how many to move and you're good to go!
I can see how this would work in melee, but in a shooting battle with muskets? I just can't visualize it logically.
I think the idea is to make sure only your strongest musket regiments engage first and pull back the weaker so the enemy must advance to engage. This should delay their inconvenient, giving time for the elites to run through their side and hopefully turn to help the weaker after
Wait, "Rhodok Elite Pikemen"? What mod are you using for those lads?
Bannerlord really needs a 1v1 multiplayer mode where each player controls an army. Make it so like in the Captain mode higher tier units have fewer dudes (and/or cost more to deploy) and let the players duke it out as generals.
De Re Militari! It's a good mod (True Armies of Calradia is really good as well)
I thought this was Epaminondas tactic from Thebes or however you write it. I think his was the oblique phalanx but the order is probably a modification of it.
why not set them up as far back as you possibly can during deployment phase to give more space?
Also got to keep in mind how little the AI tries to survive. That's why the line crumbles before anything got done early on there. Soldiers in real life could fight for a bit longer. The times I've been in a physical fight against just 1 person...they try REALLY hard and it takes a lot to win. Can't imagine the time it'd take to kill, especially if they're in armor and have buddies fighting just as hard to protect them and kill you.
This kinda is and isn't really Oblique order. Oblique order is about using most of your troops to overload one of your flanks, defeat the flank in detail with numerical superiority and then roll up the superior strength enemy line by creating a cascade of local superiority from the flank where your troops were victorious. Many of these examples were more of a case of pin the troops on the left and use your reserve to flank the centre. Two completely different tactics.
It started off as sort of Oblique order, but then the center kept getting crushed so fast. Even with RBM mod to slow the combat down, it was tough to get the overloaded left flank into action.
It's interesting still because both sides had the exact some unit composition, so by putting all top tier units on the left and the enemy evenly distributing theirs along the whole line, it was still possible to get local superiority on the left as long as the center and right avoided contact for some time! But yeah you're right, it's not quite Oblique order but I think it's the closest Bannerlord can get to it given how combat works and the size of the battles
@@Strat-Guides It'd def work far better if units in shield wall lasted longer. Like having the option to assign units a defensive, normal or aggressive state on top of your formations. Defensive shield wall would pretty much just be them holding their shields and defending 75% of the time. Allowing the aggressive left wing that was being overloaded to do it's work.
Whilst F1+f3 is a useful reference datum, you should also be doing Line formation (or square vs cav etc).
I still dont get how to fine tune different troops in the formation system??
To do it pre-battle you need to use filters. In this case, I used the higher tier units filter to get all the T5 separated from the T3 and into their own group. You have to know how many units there are beforehand so you know when to stop the slider for how many. Once you're in battle, you can move units around to different groups, but you can't pick which to move, so separating higher tier or shock troops much be done pre-battle.
Any thoughts on trying Shakka's Bull Horns technique?
It's on the list to try out! I'm working on like and shot for this weekend's video but I'll definitely get to that one soon
Lol the f1-f3 was definitely the best
Wouldn't it be better to use shock troops instead of the pikemen?
Hey there, Strat. Do reinforcments finally work properly now?
Lol sometimes! I had a battle last month where they spawned enemy shield troops right on top of my archer line. That's not the norm, but it definitely still happens
how to command the army like you do? I mean from above thx
so i wonder if RBM posture system mimics combat exhaustion? maybe a little bit but after a knockdown posture just regens, but it seems like just throwing full strength in a simul attack is best.
necessity for having reserve troops is often overlooked in war games. So important though - imagine continuing combat after your heart rate has been maxed out for 10 minutes trying to stay alive, - a fresh guy will always have an energy and mental advantage, even if you are "elite". bonking out in combat means certain death.
Yeah sort of - but as you stated it's not really accurate because the posture bar refills instantly after a knock down. It would be cool to see the posture system had diminishing limit to it's refill, so that each time it get's reduced it refills some percentage less than 100%. It wouldn't accurately simulate it, but I guess it would be one step closer
@@Strat-Guides yes like 80-70->60->45->30->10 or something. i will suggest something like this. i think rbm already gives higher tier troops better posture pool (or is it just from their armor i forget), so this would work well as higher troops wont tire as easily.
@@captainkielbasa5471 It scales with Athletics skill
your middle front line is too thin for proper oblic order. your right wing is supposed is supposed to engage fight later than middle which is supposed to engage later than left.
finally, it's a musket tactic, which means your right wing can still put pressure before engaging.
which mod did you use to have the spear/pikemen hold their polearms upright? RBM?
Yeah I used RBM in this one
@@Strat-Guides thanks!
F-1 F-3 tactic is the best humanity ever create so far
Yes but can this be done in Empire Total War as the Americans?
I really wish total war games emphasized unit weight and pushing more. Rarely does a unit get pushed back before it wins/loses
You're completely doing this wrong. The idea would be to shove back the left line forward and let the reserves fold on the center. Not take out the left flank then attack the center. It would then serve better to have the center fight defensively to hold. Unfortunately, bannerlord doesn't really let you push back an enemy unit so you can basically replicate that by having your center fall back a bit to allow for the reserve unit enough of a gap to flank into the center.
Yeah I know what you mean, it started out trying to follow the historical formation but quickly devolved into "something vaguely resembling the formation that doesn't get completely steamrolled" haha I appreciate the input!
@@Strat-Guides No problem. Thanks for the reply. I find your videos fun and binge them quite often while I am at work.
I love bannerlords II for having almost no Cap of creative tactics
Thanks for watching!
It's capping tactics pretty hard in big battles actually. Let me put some dang pikemen in my archers, will you? Order of battle system: Nope. Old early access bannerlord, version 1.6.5 or earlier: OK! Just press the flag in party screen to assign this unit type this number!
And no, this did not limit you in using several formations with some of these units. Of course you then wouldn't put them starting in the same number formation in the old system then, you'd sacrifice one number of your formations (example, the 8) to then split the 8 off, transfer their troops into the other formations you'd like them to be in. Yes. Was possible in 1.6.5 before the battle started, for sieges at least. So yes, order of battle before actual start, could be setup even in the old system, they just didn't do it for more than one patch.
Well, the Old Fritz’ battle tactics ain’t exactly straight, are they?
Imagine being the soldier that gets put on the frontline of the weak flank.
There's an interesting line by Frederick - he wrote that it's important the troops in the weak section don't know they are in the weak section lol I guess it would ruin morale and they would flee
@@Strat-Guides “guess I’ll die lol”
@@LocalDiscordCatgirl lol perfect meme
I thought it was Epaminondas of Thebes was the founder of this tactic.
Yeah I included that in the description - Frederick the Great studied ancient warfare and tactics, then adapted it to his era of combat! Pretty interesting stuff
Oblique order was done by the ancient greeks first as far as historical records show. It wasnt by Fredrick the great.
Yup, it's in the description - I attributed it to Epaminondas. Sadly UA-cam doesn't promote lesser-known figures, so I went with Frederick who adopted the tactic for his own era
flanking 1 side is better then flanking no side, but how does this compare to the tried and true flanking both sides approach?, i would imagine against a player both sides would stretch thin and then you would end up in a F1 F3 scenario, with this against a player they would stretch there left flank wider then your right flank, and you would stretch your left wider then there left, and you would probably lose because both sides are flanking but your center is weaker.
you did it wrong tho, it was an idea for ranged infantry in a time where muskets was mainly used as a weapon and the heavier side moves continously forward when the enemy is in range towards you
My understanding is that it was developed in Greece in BC time period, but was adapted later to be used with muskets. So at one point it did work with shields and spears, but I'm just not skilled enough to get it to work clearly I think :(
@@Strat-Guides the main part of this strategy is still moving forward with the now havier side to pressure the enemie lines
how do u command an army without being on the battlefield?
RTS Camera mod
Made a video on Battle of Austerlitz tactics pls 😁
Love from india 🇮🇳
Wait a minute, didnt the Thebanss used this tactic before the Germs did ?
Yeah, but UA-cam won't promote Thebans sadly so I erred on the side of a more recognizable historical figure that also used the tactic :(
@@Strat-Guides Damn, that's rough.
But video is nice to watch.
I’m not as familiar with bannerlord (I’ve played it some not a lot) but usually sword and shield troops are better at fighting other infantry, whereas spears and pikes excel at fighting cavalry, not sure how much bannerlord considers these common fighting principles, but I wonder if that might have helped in this situation
It's interesting because they pretty much make spears useless overall. I usually use a mod called RBM for these types of videos because it makes all weapons viable and deadly. The only reason I stuck with spears and pikes was to emulate the ancient Greek battles (where this tactic originated I believe?), but I sword and shield would be performed well here too. Spears are great at keeping the enemy at distance, but once the gap is closed, sword/daggers are king :)
Great video and excellent presentation on the tactics!
The out come looks o bleak for the spearmen.
When I was doing research for this, I came across some writing by Frederick and he said when using this tactic, it's best to not let the weak section know what's going on as their willingness to fight in that situation is questionable lol the poor bastards who got stuck in the weak part of the line!
@Strat Gaming same way AlexanderIII treated Parminion
Isn't it similar to the Battle of Cannae ?