@XwendigoX Könnte es nicht eher sein, dass dein CD-Laufwerk zwischen den Tracks ein wenig hakt? Macht meines auch. Fällt halt nur bei durchgehenden Aufnahmen auf. Spiel sie doch mal in einem normalen Player ab. Ich glaub nämlich kaum, dass bei der Aufnahme derart gepfuscht wurde.
@KristNovoselik "Vergessen" wurden sie wohl nicht, da sie nicht im Zuge des "Palästinalied-Projektes" entstanden und auf entsprechender CD gelandet sind. ;) Das Video oben beschränkt sich - soweit ich das sehe - lediglich auf diese CD - und klammert damit SaMo, Qntal und InEx aus... ;) LG
@Lebkoang2009 I bis- So it's difficult to know what is the origin of the antiphonal you told about (place of preservation, catalog reference, ...). There are a lot of french antiphonals of this period and catholic mottetum entitled "Ave Regina Coelorum".
Ja, diese seltsamen Pausen zwischen den Interpreten, sind auf meiner CD nicht zu hören. Muss am Überspielen liegen! Schade, da kommt das sonst so runde Werk ein wenig ins Wackeln.
@Lebkoang2009 I don't know whether Vogelweide was only a poet or if his song melodies were added later. This is a highly risked estimation which is impossible to prove. First, the troubadour learnt music and poetry near the religious composers. So, it isn't abnormal their songs looked like the religious antiphons. Twice, the troubadour invented the poetical song forms (Rondeau, Virelai, ...). So, it isn't strange Jauffré or Volgelweide used those forms. Where is the proof ?
@Lebkoang2009 "they had no adequate notation. Neumes, for example" I looked for the book by musicologist Mertens but i found only the book "Lierberspaare des Mittelalters" by Volker Mertens. Unfortunately this book isn't available to be consulted on Books Google. Though, in another of his book, he wrote about Hildegarde von Bingen (1098-1172). Could you explain me how today we know and can perform numerous of her works with the inadequate neumatic notation such an anonymous composer used ?
@TheFrancoGerman Yes, Palëstinalied is really a franco german song because Walter Von der Vogelweide plagiarised the melody on the french troubadour Jaufré Rudel's song "Lanquan li jorn" as he done in other of his songs (Unter der Linden / En Mai au douz tens novel)
ist mir klar dass das von walther auf neuhochdeutsch ist,aber ich finde die version von ougenweide triffts ziemlich sind zu dem original überhaupt neumen erahlten?
@blackdiamondYY III- Palästinalied is the single song of WVDV to reach modern times with lyrics and music. Other of his works had kept only their lyrics. Concerning "Unter der Linden", it is a literal translation of the french song lyrics on the same theme by an anonymous trouvère "En Mai au douz tens novel" or "Salderaladon". This analogy led modern musicologists to copy the same french tune on the WVDV lyrics.
@Lebkoang2009 You said that the main part of troubadour songs are fom unknown author because the composers didn't write their name on the score. You are absolutely wrong because at the opposite the main part of troubadour or minnesanger songs are from known composer Apparently you ignore what is a "Vida" in which troubadour themselves wrote their own biography.
@The Franco German M. van Langen hat verschiedene Projekte, rein traditionell unter dem Namen Des Teufels Lockvögel und Marcus van Langen. Unter Van Langen macht er mit Band Mittelalter-Rock.
@Lebkoang2009 You try to get the people confused with the informations about the relationship between Jauffré Rudel and Walther Von Der Vogelweide songs. You didn't succeed to demonstrate another theory than the normal one. The current german musicologist Christoph Effenberger confirmed this theory by the study of the melodies, of the lyrics structure and the historical context. Many german,interpreters as Corvus Corax agreed this assumption because the melody similarity is evident .
@Lebkoang2009 At least, the similarity isn't on the lyrics and the poetic theme but on the melody and ilt remains undoubtfully a very close similarity between Jauffré Rudel song melody "Lanquan li jorns" and Vogelweide song melody "Palastinalied". However, despite the melody some other elements seem to indicate the WVDV song could be inspired by the Jauffré one (verses number, metrical exactly adapted to the melody rythmic caesura, ...). German musicologist Rieman noticed it first.
@Lebkoang2009 Unfortunately You don't speak french and I don't speak german; So english is our only possible language, (al meno que se habla espanol tambien). Champeaux's being didn't prove the existence of a musical school at Notre Dame de Paris Cathedral in this time. Effectively, Paris wasn't yet a great musical center such as Metz or Reims During this era, music was more a monastic job because only monasteries had scholarly composers and scribes to copy antiphonal.
@Lebkoang2009 II- Then, it's very difficult believing this assumption for an important reason. At this period the antiphonals were created by local composers only for a local use. They never had a wide circulation. Secondly Champeaux and Jauffré Rudel belonged at two dictinctive and very different civilizations. Occitanie was considered as culturally and politically independant from Northern France
@Lebkoang2009 "The whistling child" i don't think particularly it was just a fun but a way to discredit the melody importance and the merits of the composers. There were few examples of popular melodic borrowings and the main part of music is composer personnal inventions
@Lebkoang2009 III- However, this is an interesting hypothesis but it needs to be justified. As I said previously, some scholars assumed the "Lanquan li jorn" song melody could came from the previous song "Kalenda Maya" from an earlier troubadour of the same region Raimbaut de Vaqueiras.
@blackdiamondYY II- It proves now the Palästinalied tune derived from the troubadour Jaufré Rudel song "Lanquan li jorn" but this melody yet existed in a previous form "Kalenda Maya" composed by troubadour Rimbaut de Vaqueiras at request of his master Boniface de Montferrat around 1190. Some jongleurs of Nothern France had performed this estampida at Boniface's court in Sicily.
@Lebkoang2009 There a common factor between Jauffré Rudel and Walther Von der Vogelweide despite their geographical and cultural differences, That's the Crusades where the knights of every chritan euopean nations met together and shared their culture. It was probably here Vogeweide learnt Jauffré Rudel song. In another hand, in those times, plagiarise had no the same current meaning and was widely allowed whithout any consideration to be an offence to the copyright as it's the case today.
@Lebkoang2009 Yes That's a stupid assertion because their notation was sufficient to be read and transcribed nowadays. More, the neumes disappeared in the 10th and 11th centuries when the stave was created by Guy d'Arezzo (see Messine notation). Neumatic notation isn't legible due to the lack of linemark for the note pitch but it had yet time note values (porrectus, scandicus, torculus,...). This imperfection was fulfilled by the invention of the first linemarks of the stave from the year 1000
@Lebkoang2009 I - Despite the fact that I couldn't speak German a word, nevertheless I understood quite right what you said thank to the Google automatic translator.
@Lebkoang2009 Plagiarise isn't an insult ; Here is the definition you never consult "Plagiarise = Copy the work of someone and claim the authorship for its own". isn't it the case ? The insulting meaning is in the current sense or in your mind; I've told yet it was a normal practice in those times until the authorship rights creation. This melody borrowing didn't reduce WVDV merits. I don't know whether WVDV borrowed himself this melody or not but it remains a plagiary, a borrowing or a fake
@Lebkoang2009 Yes, you try to get the listener confused when you assert finally this is just a banal melody Jauffré Rudel could had compose from a tune whistled by a kid in the street. As everyone knows the kid of the street are fabulous composers, so Bach, Telemann, Pachebel, Beethoven ....used their help. You try constantly to discredit the Jauffré Rudel theory by inventing incerttain and unfounded hypothesis.
@Lebkoang2009 This is absolutely untrue, fanciful and anachronistic. Jaufré lifetimes were: b 1113 - d 1170; The Cathedral of Paris Notre Dame building began in 1161. The earlier composition of Notre Dame School dated from 1190 (manuscrit de Saint Etienne) long after Jaufré's death. The two leaders of musical school Notre Dame de Paris were Leonin and Perotin. Their lifetimes are placed between the mid 12th and the mid 13th centuries. It neither coincided and were later Jaufré's life
@Lebkoang2009 "What we hear today on CDS are products of our imagination" That's clear we could never play on the same way the music was performed originally. This would not mean medieval music isn't "great works of art". Indeed they are and it is an evidence but for you. There are a fundamental step of our musical history and its development. Now, I wonder why you spent a full time just to conclude medieval music isn't important for you ?
@blackdiamondYY I- This USA hypothetic and undemonstrated theory from 1978 is now out of validity. I suggest you better to consult german modern researches published by Christoph Effenbergen from the Dresden University, in his 2004 book "Walther Von Der Vogel weide: Palästinlied" (available in Google digitalized books). From this time researches evolved.
@Lebkoang2009 Yes it's just a melody. So, every song is just a melody. What's the matter? Is it a proof, a reasoning or a foolish remark ? The most part of the french troubadour songs aren't from unknown authors and neither those of Walther Von Der Vogelweide or german minnesangers. So this statement is untrue. You show us an hideous crisis of chauvinism. The fame of the french troubadour is not based on this occasional borrowing. Culture is always an exchange phenomenon. Do you ignore it ?
![In Extremo - Palästinalied 1 & 2 [Deutsch & English lyrics]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/laEm_jvS0MM/mqdefault.jpg)
Oh super, jetzt mit Untertiteln, wer wann singt. Super!
Gibt es das Lied, in der Fassung, auch käuflich irgendwo?
Für hilfreiche Antworten DANK im Voraus.
Tolle Idee, man kann schön die Interpretationsstile erkennen. Doppeldaumen :-)
@XwendigoX Könnte es nicht eher sein, dass dein CD-Laufwerk zwischen den Tracks ein wenig hakt? Macht meines auch. Fällt halt nur bei durchgehenden Aufnahmen auf. Spiel sie doch mal in einem normalen Player ab. Ich glaub nämlich kaum, dass bei der Aufnahme derart gepfuscht wurde.
@KristNovoselik "Vergessen" wurden sie wohl nicht, da sie nicht im Zuge des "Palästinalied-Projektes" entstanden und auf entsprechender CD gelandet sind. ;) Das Video oben beschränkt sich - soweit ich das sehe - lediglich auf diese CD - und klammert damit SaMo, Qntal und InEx aus... ;)
LG
@Lebkoang2009 I bis- So it's difficult to know what is the origin of the antiphonal you told about (place of preservation, catalog reference, ...). There are a lot of french antiphonals of this period and catholic mottetum entitled "Ave Regina Coelorum".
Warum haßt du ausgerechnet InExtremo vergessen???
Ja, diese seltsamen Pausen zwischen den Interpreten, sind auf meiner CD nicht zu hören. Muss am Überspielen liegen! Schade, da kommt das sonst so runde Werk ein wenig ins Wackeln.
@Lebkoang2009 I don't know whether Vogelweide was only a poet or if his song melodies were added later. This is a highly risked estimation which is impossible to prove. First, the troubadour learnt music and poetry near the religious composers. So, it isn't abnormal their songs looked like the religious antiphons. Twice, the troubadour invented the poetical song forms (Rondeau, Virelai, ...). So, it isn't strange Jauffré or Volgelweide used those forms. Where is the proof ?
@Lebkoang2009 "they had no adequate notation. Neumes, for example"
I looked for the book by musicologist Mertens but i found only the book "Lierberspaare des Mittelalters" by Volker Mertens. Unfortunately this book isn't available to be consulted on Books Google. Though, in another of his book, he wrote about Hildegarde von Bingen (1098-1172). Could you explain me how today we know and can perform numerous of her works with the inadequate neumatic notation such an anonymous composer used ?
Das kannte ich bis jetzt noch gar nicht. Hab mir grade mal den Text durchgelesen und muss dir zustimmen. Das müsste echt mal vertont werden.
@TheFrancoGerman Yes, Palëstinalied is really a franco german song because Walter Von der Vogelweide plagiarised the melody on the french troubadour Jaufré Rudel's song "Lanquan li jorn" as he done in other of his songs (Unter der Linden / En Mai au douz tens novel)
@Ostfriesenhasi Mein Fehler! Diese Unterbrechungen sind im Original natürlich nicht vorhanden. Wird wohl, wie du sagst, am Laufwerk liegen.
ist mir klar dass das von walther auf neuhochdeutsch ist,aber ich finde die version von ougenweide triffts ziemlich
sind zu dem original überhaupt neumen erahlten?
@blackdiamondYY III- Palästinalied is the single song of WVDV to reach modern times with lyrics and music. Other of his works had kept only their lyrics. Concerning "Unter der Linden", it is a literal translation of the french song lyrics on the same theme by an anonymous trouvère "En Mai au douz tens novel" or "Salderaladon". This analogy led modern musicologists to copy the same french tune on the WVDV lyrics.
@Lebkoang2009 You said that the main part of troubadour songs are fom unknown author because the composers didn't write their name on the score. You are absolutely wrong because at the opposite the main part of troubadour or minnesanger songs are from known composer Apparently you ignore what is a "Vida" in which troubadour themselves wrote their own biography.
@The Franco German
M. van Langen hat verschiedene Projekte, rein traditionell unter dem Namen Des Teufels Lockvögel und Marcus van Langen. Unter Van Langen macht er mit Band Mittelalter-Rock.
@Lebkoang2009 You try to get the people confused with the informations about the relationship between Jauffré Rudel and Walther Von Der Vogelweide songs. You didn't succeed to demonstrate another theory than the normal one. The current german musicologist Christoph Effenberger confirmed this theory by the study of the melodies, of the lyrics structure and the historical context. Many german,interpreters as Corvus Corax agreed this assumption because the melody similarity is evident .
wunderbar
@Lebkoang2009 I bis - As you precised Guillem de Champeaux (1070-1121) was a theologist, a rhetorician and a bishop, not a musician.
@Lebkoang2009 At least, the similarity isn't on the lyrics and the poetic theme but on the melody and ilt remains undoubtfully a very close similarity between Jauffré Rudel song melody "Lanquan li jorns" and Vogelweide song melody "Palastinalied". However, despite the melody some other elements seem to indicate the WVDV song could be inspired by the Jauffré one (verses number, metrical exactly adapted to the melody rythmic caesura, ...). German musicologist Rieman noticed it first.
@Lebkoang2009 Unfortunately You don't speak french and I don't speak german; So english is our only possible language, (al meno que se habla espanol tambien). Champeaux's being didn't prove the existence of a musical school at Notre Dame de Paris Cathedral in this time. Effectively, Paris wasn't yet a great musical center such as Metz or Reims During this era, music was more a monastic job because only monasteries had scholarly composers and scribes to copy antiphonal.
so this is a mashup of different versions of this song? what are the versions this consists of?
No. Every performer sings
each stanza of the song in its own manner.
@Lebkoang2009 II- Then, it's very difficult believing this assumption for an important reason. At this period the antiphonals were created by local composers only for a local use. They never had a wide circulation. Secondly Champeaux and Jauffré Rudel belonged at two dictinctive and very different civilizations. Occitanie was considered as culturally and politically independant from Northern France
@Lebkoang2009 "The whistling child"
i don't think particularly it was just a fun but a way to discredit the melody importance and the merits of the composers. There were few examples of popular melodic borrowings and the main part of music is composer personnal inventions
@Lebkoang2009 III- However, this is an interesting hypothesis but it needs to be justified. As I said previously, some scholars assumed the "Lanquan li jorn" song melody could came from the previous song "Kalenda Maya" from an earlier troubadour of the same region Raimbaut de Vaqueiras.
@blackdiamondYY II- It proves now the Palästinalied tune derived from the troubadour Jaufré Rudel song "Lanquan li jorn" but this melody yet existed in a previous form "Kalenda Maya" composed by troubadour Rimbaut de Vaqueiras at request of his master Boniface de Montferrat around 1190. Some jongleurs of Nothern France had performed this estampida at Boniface's court in Sicily.
@Lebkoang2009 There a common factor between Jauffré Rudel and Walther Von der Vogelweide despite their geographical and cultural differences, That's the Crusades where the knights of every chritan euopean nations met together and shared their culture. It was probably here Vogeweide learnt Jauffré Rudel song. In another hand, in those times, plagiarise had no the same current meaning and was widely allowed whithout any consideration to be an offence to the copyright as it's the case today.
@Lebkoang2009 Yes That's a stupid assertion because their notation was sufficient to be read and transcribed nowadays. More, the neumes disappeared in the 10th and 11th centuries when the stave was created by Guy d'Arezzo (see Messine notation). Neumatic notation isn't legible due to the lack of linemark for the note pitch but it had yet time note values (porrectus, scandicus, torculus,...). This imperfection was fulfilled by the invention of the first linemarks of the stave from the year 1000
Grüße. Der Herr heisst "van Langen".
@Lebkoang2009 II bis- So, it's seems very difficult to believe that Jauffré Rudel could had the opportunity to know the Notre Dame Antiphonal.
@Lebkoang2009 I - Despite the fact that I couldn't speak German a word, nevertheless I understood quite right what you said thank to the Google automatic translator.
@Lebkoang2009 Plagiarise isn't an insult ; Here is the definition you never consult "Plagiarise = Copy the work of someone and claim the authorship for its own". isn't it the case ? The insulting meaning is in the current sense or in your mind; I've told yet it was a normal practice in those times until the authorship rights creation. This melody borrowing didn't reduce WVDV merits. I don't know whether WVDV borrowed himself this melody or not but it remains a plagiary, a borrowing or a fake
@Lebkoang2009 Yes, you try to get the listener confused when you assert finally this is just a banal melody Jauffré Rudel could had compose from a tune whistled by a kid in the street. As everyone knows the kid of the street are fabulous composers, so Bach, Telemann, Pachebel, Beethoven ....used their help. You try constantly to discredit the Jauffré Rudel theory by inventing incerttain and unfounded hypothesis.
@AndreR241 Würde mich jetzt auch interessieren...
@Lebkoang2009 This is absolutely untrue, fanciful and anachronistic. Jaufré lifetimes were: b 1113 - d 1170; The Cathedral of Paris Notre Dame building began in 1161. The earlier composition of Notre Dame School dated from 1190 (manuscrit de Saint Etienne) long after Jaufré's death. The two leaders of musical school Notre Dame de Paris were Leonin and Perotin. Their lifetimes are placed between the mid 12th and the mid 13th centuries. It neither coincided and were later Jaufré's life
@Lebkoang2009 signed
The lout of the german medieval music.
guck mal hier bei youtube nach der band ougenweide und dann das lied "willkommen"....das müsste es sein
@Ostfriesenhasi Ja sind sie. Ich habe die CD so hochgeladen wie sie ist.
@Lebkoang2009 "What we hear today on CDS are products of our imagination"
That's clear we could never play on the same way the music was performed originally. This would not mean medieval music isn't "great works of art". Indeed they are and it is an evidence but for you. There are a fundamental step of our musical history and its development. Now, I wonder why you spent a full time just to conclude medieval music isn't important for you ?
@blackdiamondYY I- This USA hypothetic and undemonstrated theory from 1978 is now out of validity. I suggest you better to consult german modern researches published by Christoph Effenbergen from the Dresden University, in his 2004 book "Walther Von Der Vogel weide: Palästinlied" (available in Google digitalized books). From this time researches evolved.
@Lebkoang2009 Yes it's just a melody. So, every song is just a melody. What's the matter? Is it a proof, a reasoning or a foolish remark ? The most part of the french troubadour songs aren't from unknown authors and neither those of Walther Von Der Vogelweide or german minnesangers. So this statement is untrue. You show us an hideous crisis of chauvinism. The fame of the french troubadour is not based on this occasional borrowing. Culture is always an exchange phenomenon. Do you ignore it ?
@FANinextremo Glaub nicht alles was du dir denkst! :)
Preislied? Ich habs immer als Propagandalied verstanden, was aber nichts an der Schönheit desselben ändert.