If The Neoliberal Era is Over, What Comes Next? | Downstream
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- Опубліковано 30 вер 2024
- If neoliberalism really is over then what comes after? And could this new political and economic moment, where a larger state is embraced, see a turn right rather than left? Aaron Bastani speaks to sociologist Paolo Gerbaudo about his new book, 'The Great Recoil', examining how ideas of protection, control and state intervention are replacing the previous orthodoxy of free market capitalism.
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It seems to be living on, like a zombie, at the moment.
Fascinating discussion and something that you don't always hear on mainstream media. You might not always agree with everything that Novara says, but they always make you think. We need more thought in this country.
Neoliberalism has never been stronger in the Labour party since the dark days when Blair was leader, I guess Starmer hasn't read your book!
It would take Starmer to win a GE to confirm whether the public agrees or not. Do you think that is likely?
So many things to unpack in this great talk... but for me as a Londoner married to an Irishman and living in Italy for 20 years, I found the discussion of patriotism and national identity particularly interesting. I am disgusted by the way Britain has acted throughout its imperial history, and feel no real sense of patriotism, yet however long I live here in Italy i'll never be Italian, but always British. My personal feeling is that nations as we have them now are both too small and divided to deal with the corruption and tax avoidance of global corporations, and too big to govern individual regions and communities. My preference would be to let any small nation (Scotland, Northern Ireland, Basques, Sardegna etc.) vote for independence and break away as they wish, but that we all come together in the framework of a (somewhat reformed) EU, and ultimately global agreements (UN, SDGs etc.).
The answer to that would be a resounding, no, no, no. We are not the EU we are England as for our past as a nation. I'm very proud to be British. I wont apologise for what my ancestors did neither do I agree with what they did or the pain and misery they caused. Education is a marvelous tool. NOT, interested in EU style anything at all, period .....
Very well put
No, neoliberalism is not over. People really must understand that neoliberalism doesn't mean reducing the state or keep the state from intervening the economy.
It means turning the state towards the creation and protection of markets. It means enforcing growing authoritarism to protect said markets.
You can have a state that spends trillions and it being fully neoliberal. In fact we have it.
From what I understand of it. It's the markets can solve everything and deregulation. Then you eventually get the Great Recession. It started in the late 70's.
Over? I wish someone would deliver this news to Keith
Great discussion, especially near the end. Aaron rightly asks what a Left patriotism would lead to in terms of action; Paolo rightly gives the example of going after wealthy tax evaders and the like. Instead of going after the evaders for being bourgeois pigs, go after them for bleeding and betraying their community, and forcing the rest of their countrymen to bear the extra tax burden.
Gary Lineker is far left in his views,and he's evaded 5.5 million in tax. What would you do to him,as he's actually one of your own
Next we need to abandon internationalism! Not everyone is as advanced as we are yet so we can't let foreign traitors undermine our progress.
No answer about Lineker?
@@stephenlaw9886 You listed one person and thought that broke his whole point
@@yakm5385 it does. I could list plenty more
It’s never over till the ghost of Milton Friedman sings!
_" ...the ghost of Milton Friedman *screams impotently*!"_
If I believed in ghosts, I'd enjoy his screaming...like Pinochet enjoyed the screams of the families of the disappeared and his torture victims.
And of course Chile was the first country where neoliberalism was imposed ..
Milton Friedman did say on a video that the only reason he supported Neoliberal ideology of the free market was because large wealthy companies and the wealthiest pay tax on their wealth.
@@safirahmed Well exactly. As the late great Maya Angelou warned us, "when people tell you who they are, believe them". Neoliberalism is nothing but a massive grab back of wealth and power by the richest, and boy have they grabbed back. It's a return to the ancien regime when the poor supported the rich through their taxes.
@@oldishandwoke-ish1181 guess what
Chile is south America most developed country 🤙
Givenots of its credit to the Chicago boys
Enjoyed the interview a lot. But I just want to highlight a very important point: neoliberalism didn't start in the 80s with Thatcher and Reagan but has been imposed through violence as an experiment in the South American dictatorships of the military juntas (Chile, Argentina, Uruguay etc.) at the beginning of the 70s with the School of Chicago Boys and their guru Milton Friedman. We should expand the analysis further and come out from this anglo-saxon bubble...
Great point, well made. All the best.
To be fair those were very much anglo-saxon projects. The US directly pushed those.
@@sblbb929 obviously, imperialism at its best. But the guinea pigs were not global north countries :-)
@@sabreta78 If you think about that they didn't even learn from the south american situation and adopted the policies regardless. Endless greed.
@@sblbb929 'they' Thatcher Raygun etc, did learn the lessons 'they' did not care about the human cost.
I'm a "socialist grandpa', Aaron, and I totally enjoyed that discussion you had with Paolo.
I'm just a tad dissappionted that you didn't discuss economists, Keynes and Friedman, and where is the next king-maker economist going to come from? Left or right?
Nevertheless, I loved the conversation, keep up the great and important work that you do.
Starmer is a loyal child of Thatcher
Tories eager for entertainment could demand a paternity test for Starmer on a celebrity Jeremy Kyle TV show.
At least Thatcher was a tory whose prime aim is to protect her class whereas Blair was susposed to be a Labour Party member who is susposed to be representing the working class. Instead he was just a red tory. He decided to stay with the status quo instead of effecting real change, a chance lost.
The crisis consists precisely in the fact that the old is dying and the new cannot be born; in this interregnum a great variety of morbid symptoms appear.
This quote has rarely been more pertinent than in this context.
"common sense" liberalism means the market is good? It presumes access to private capital is appropriate. No.
That’s the claim of neoliberalism. A lie, but a lie with big money behind it.
I actually didn't/don't know what neoliberalism was/is. Thanks.
According to Naomi Klein, it can be defined with these three major pillars of economics: 1) privatisation of public goods and services, 2) deregulation of corporations, 3) lowering of income and corporate taxes.
@@Lily-ni5po Thanks, really appreciate it.
in the case of Spanish and British patriotism... where does it leave patriotism on the part of Scots, Catalans, etc?
@@casteretpollux Agree absolutely, Saor Alba.
is UK so isolated? he /they talk of US present situation as if Bidon election catchpoints (except i'llveto any attempt at national healthcare program!) and politics : i wish, i'd like to think about putting forward a plan to consider x, are anything else than words. Bidoneconomics is to NOT have any change, especially spending in infratucture or social programs. And the warfare program/spending escalades. ?????????? the bill which they will not vote for, not even 1/4 of it, gives away the last local independant public wealth to private corporations, straight from CARES of Trump era.
Calm down & try writing that out again, this time in an intelligible fashion.
My God, Baroness Thatcher's eyes pierce you right to your soul in the picture you've chosen, it's like one of those paintings in a haunted house whose eyes move to constantly stare at you! Spine tingling!
Far left and Corbynism is dead, murdered by Johnson then Starmer came in nailed the coffin and padlocked it shut so you can never get out and rear that wretched head ever again
Neoliberal Thatcherism and strict adherence to fundamentalist free market economics is the past and socialism with a mixed economy is the future.
in her living presence Thatcher had a detached retina gave her a black spot in the vision , the brain compensates by almost filling in the missing images , its best described as having a mote in the eye, hence the intensity of her look , Steve Bells cartoon did show this caricature and been a trope ever since , what realy did make her ugly was the sheer condescending arrogant approach to the people ,not strong leader ship just sheer fucking blag , fooling the idiotic conservative , mindset this revered by the conformist ,too ignorant to think for them selves.
@@zoedaisy1499 you wish, it's more relevant now after brexit and the pandemic than ever, i don't see you setting out your alternatives for the future, you're just a conservative, in the worst way.
@@jangomoonstomp typical leftie anybody who thinks Corbyn is useless is labelled a Tory. I actually want to win elections and kick out Tories and that can only be done as Blair always says from the centre left
Totally agree the left needs to engage with and reframe patriotism. I can't shake the feeling the whole MAGA thing could have been stopped in its tracks if the American left had just been like "Hey this Trump guy doesn't think America's great already, what's up with that?"
@@patrickholt2270 Point. Might have sounded less hollow coming from someone other than Hillary
In fact, patriotism is a “left” term that dates back to the time of the French Revolution.
The truth always comes out in the end.
What is the fundamental flaw in the free market theory of neoclassical economics?
The University of Chicago worked that out in the 1930s after last time.
Banks can inflate asset prices with the money they create from bank loans.
To get meaningful price signal from the markets you need to ensure bank credit is not used to fund the transfer of existing assets.
Using the money creation of bank credit to fund the transfer of existing assets inflates the price.
We relied on price signals from the markets.
We weren’t getting meaningful price signals from the markets as we had forgotten the fundamental flaw in the free market theory of neoclassical economics.
This is how the banking system and the markets become closely coupled, as they did before 1929.
This is why the collapse in asset prices in 1929 devastated the US banking system,
Today’s free market thinkers always were on a hiding to nothing.
They didn’t learn from past mistakes, and just repeated them.
It’s been a long time since I’ve agreed with someone as much as Paolo. He really did cut through the endless political commentary and terminology to what’s actually happening to ordinary folk. Very rare that an intellectual doesn’t get wrapped up and smothered in their own rhetoric and loses the actual point along the way.
Brilliant video. Very insightful. Now going to order the book. Thanks! 📚📚
Keep bringing me downstream. 👏👏👏
Paolo makes some salient points and, amongst others, I particularly liked his analysis of Blue Labourism at the end; why anti-migrant etc pandering is not just morally bankrupt but self-defeating. As he said, working class disenfranchisement is more economic than social. I think the emphasis on economic rights over identity is also a subtle caution to many on the Left who tend to alienate those who don't subscribe wholesale to all social liberalism. However, I find the justification of his brand of patriotism quite 'colour-blind' and oblivious to the experiences of say, someone like myself whose family are from former British colonies. Aaron was right to push him on it but his mention of Ash's purported Englishness doesn't square the circle. I believe concepts of patriotism/nationalism are too problematic for some of us culturally liminal citizens. Some of Paolo's points are valid; one should be invested in the place they live. Yet, I don't believe patriotism is the best concept or terminology. I think something like 'pride of place' would be better and have less historical (imperial) baggage.
Love diagrams, love sociologists, so a good broadcast. Some bits I will have to revisit - as a boomer my brain is running out - but lots to think about.
Spain was also an empire once. In fact we were the first modern empire. We are as imperialists as everyone else.
Really enjoyed this intelligent analysis. Thank you
Techno-Feudalism
anti corruption agenda !
Paolo Gerbaudo provides a very intelligent analysis of the ''neoliberal'' cycle, with a focus on its decadent slow death. 👋🏼👋🏼👋🏼
Banal slogans, no tune., one key, round the clock., bigger ,faster, louder, more., consume or die... The music of our time?
🤔 (Green Fire, UK) 🌈🦉
Not now, but soon.
If The Neoliberal Era is Over, What Comes Next? Incompetent Authoritarianism by the look of things. Incompauthority?
Please consider including special guests name in the title of your video publications. For example, "Blah
de blah with Jeremy Corbyn and Aaron Bastani". Just a suggestion.
Thanks.
Next is left-wing neo-liberalism. I personally believe we in the left and neoliberals have common goals: a fluid globalized world without borders, one common human culture and a complete erasure of traditional social structures. So really we have the same enemies. We destroy the last left overs of social structures, institutions and traditions that are in the way of multinational corporation's vision. Borders have to go first to ensure a perfect redistribution of workforce. Cheap labour can now flow into manufacturing instead of our industrialists having to set up sweatshops overseas. A key development of this new is the privatisation of everything, even your very identity should be a consumer choice. To ensure a complete dominance of brand-choice lifestyle were every decision in your life is a choice we can make money off and even your identity is commercialised we have to combat traditional identities and communities bases on religion, heritage or family. We should be able to sell people their own roots as a package, stroking their ego while destroying any form of non-commercial social structure that provides the same sense of belonging for free.
Asylum seekers have been routinely dispersed and mistreated under the British system of immigration law. Choices about location? FO
Min. 6.00 that’s acc not true, Thatcher increased spending and acc had one of the biggest spending budgets of the time, she just called it something else so the acc spending would look decreased 😊
Neoliberalism is a cult and the pattern of cult behaviour is that when reality intrudes upon a cults central ideology there are two behavioural options that predominate, firstly to bite down harder upon their ideology and secondly to act out violently . Both of which is currently happening regardless the ideology of the cult has a higher relevance than reality.
Regardless on how people in general might regard this neoliberal ideology it remains as a myth of long standing , long enough that humanity is at great difficulties to live life under any other imagined way of being . We might detest participating in the manufacture of this cake, even know or have a sense of its problematics in making people suffer disproportionally to the gain which is to the narrow margin of the wealthy elite but we still want that cake despite everything even that of our protestations which speaks other wise. Perfect arguments that mirror Plato’s perfect forms which upon translation quickly become something on poor construction a chair few people are willing to sit.
Entropy……
The right represents the working class? Where?
What party anywhere does this?
Patriotism only leads into it's own logics, war and competition, borders and nationalism. The only way forwards is a vision of building something better, radically cooperative, local and global but not national.
What would you call the post Neo-Liberal consensus?
Thanks very much for this discussion: very thought-provoking.
This guy is a legend. Great interview
Just got started from what I see.
why am i getting greenwashed amazon adds at the start of this video 😩
Something worse. Next question?
Techno Feudalismi s next. People/Serfs giving away all their personal data for free whilst a handful of corporations sell it for next to nothing is the reason the entire market is made up of a few trillion dollar market cap companies whilst the rest stagnates. It's the reason packages for engineers is 300-500k USD per annum in the US whilst stagnation everywhere else. The reality is people want this to happen to justify their reasons for full autocratic socialism which won't actually be any better.
And your medical data will identify you as a potential organ donor type matched and ready to be 'donated' after you have an unfortunate fatal accident or overdose ready for the next oligarch who needs a liver or heart. Of course you will be at liberty to sell any body part you have 2 of like a cornea or kidney, big med, after the NHS is history, may even send out mail shots to potential donors in October, '"Christmas is so expensive, why not treat your loved ones to the Christmas they deserve. We pay cash ams all medical expenses for the extraction of the organ or part organ ( price for organs depends on the donors age and medical history)". And with this the specter of Steve Bannon, Nigel farage, Rupert Murdoch and the likes of bozzo the clown prime international joke living for ever as frankenstine monsters stiched together from bits of dead peasants and growing more physically corupt and living in a moral sewer, while getting fat on the proceeds of tax crime.
@@therealrobertbirchall Crossed the line to utterly nuts.
@@redflag4781 do you think so remember 'Soylent Geen is people'
@@redflag4781 Or metaphorically bang on?
That will indeed be the future if neoliberalism continues.
I almost skipped this because I guess the title of the video wasn't clickbaity enough for me, lol. 😜 Boy, am I glad I watched this anyway. Will watch out for anything Paolo Gerbaudo from now on. Thanks, you guys!
Neoneoliberalism
Another book to get. Great episode
I like Novara Media though half the time I've no idea what they're talking about. Which just goes to prove, I guess, is that they're cleverer than I am.
I listen to this and am wondering just what the point is - only 10 minutes in so I’ll maybe give it a chance, but … We face huge challenges, not least climate change, and instead of over-analyzing right versus left versus the centre, we should be looking for solutions to this.
Razor sharp analysis
Popularism is simply about politics demonstrably working in the interests of the polis. Not experts guiding the deplorables to the "right" decisions. Trying force it into left or right misses the point and says more about the analyst than the phenomenon.
The political aspect of neoliberalism hasn't changed. I'm sorry but I fail to see where is that change.
Fantastic interview with a great guest! Thank you for your work Team Novara!
Tony Blair - Margaret Thatchers favourite son.
Wow this guy is brainy
@@casteretpollux it helps if you can understand the words. His English erudition is indicative of his intellect. Are you as fluent in Italian?
@@casteretpollux no, I'm saying you are. I'm sure you have your own boorish idealist nonsense that wouldn't find any credence here. Move along.
@@casteretpollux I suggest his English was better than yours, and he's not a native English speaker (assuming you are). You seem to keep harping on verbosity. Information content a bit too dense for you?
@@casteretpollux hey, you're the one harping on "verbosity" like you just learned a new word. You obviously don't have the bandwidth to appreciate the content of the interview.
What's next Nazism
Followed by collapse.
techno-feudalism
What comes next? Fascism.
I'm about half way through and I disagree with almost everything they said about Brexit/Remain and sovereignty. It's common knowledge Aaron first favoured Leave before changing his mind at the last minute. But his characterisation of anyone on the left voting to remain as being naive still comes from that mentality, despite everything about Brexit so far being a shitshow. It was perfectly obvious that referendum was brought about for reasons of political manoeuvering and nothing else. It was also perfectly obvious the Tories were never going to take it as an opportunity to remodel economic structures for the wellbeing of its citizens and the climate. I honestly don't know how he still thinks he has the intellectual highground. And the political punchbag of sovereignty is largely rhetorical. People generally don't give a shit who runs what and from where. Newcastle United sold to Saudis and they cheer in the streets but it's my privilege as a citizen of a sovereign nation to sell arms to Saudi Arabia. NHS PFIs since Major and massively expanded by Blair - no public outry, but The Sun prints a headline about bendy bananas and LBC's phoneline hots up. The difference between actual sovereignty and the manipulative tool the likes of Farage leapt upon are totally distinct.
Where American goes the UK follows, let's rebuild the 'special relationship' by adopting bidenomics in the UK.
Cultural populism interventionalism.
Cultural populism and economic intervention; Interventionism.
Trouble with cultural populism is that the neoliberal capitalists use it to keep the population distracted. Populism is always hijacked by the right, who understand that they are waging a class war. Working people need to fight back.
@@cal7168 Because plenty of other working people keep voting Tory, especially in England. The power of the Tory Tabloid press is colossal.
Aaron's critique of the anti-state left was really essentialist and lacking. Please read some Bookchin Aaron. There exist more rational alternative models for confederal organization of society without monopolized, nationalistic power
Its always interesting to hear peoples opinions ref the conservatives move to leave the EU etc!!! As I remember it, it was never a political parties position to leave, it was the voters choice to leave. Point in fact, the majority of the british public had reached a point where they no longer saw the benefit of membership!! They voted as such!! This went against the political establishment. Its satisfying to see that the voters had the foresight to make the right choice!!! The politicians have had to play catch up, including labour!!!
Because they were lied to about the benefits of membership of the EU by extreme right wing elements in the ERG, to suggest Brexshit is not a tory project is very misleading.
@@therealrobertbirchall I think you were lied to as a child and not a lot has changed, so sad!!
@@kirkpassmore3302 lied to as child, I watched my country go down the shitter when I was a child in the 70s 3 day week, power cuts, under Ted Heath then god forbid the election of Thatcher and the ramping up of the class war against the good people of this land. The only thing that stabilised our economy after Heaths disaster was joining the common market. The only thing that protected us from Thatcher's worst excesses was the EEC then the EU social charter. I also saw regeneration of those industrial sites Thatcher devasted into parks and housing estates many funded by EU grants, that's our money coming back where it was needed not going into London and staying there. I saw with relief that I didn't get conscripted when I was young man, unlike my father, grandfather's, and uncles. All thanks to the EU keeping the French and Germans from having another go. I saw My prime minister 44 at the head of the EU commission for a 6 month stint 3 times as the rotating president of the commission. I do belive sir if you voted for Brexshit, it you who were decived.
@@therealrobertbirchall Ahhh Lady Thatcher, so much love and admiration I have for her!! Sorry, where were we......................ah yes, your confusion around the whole post WW2 social/economic divisions throughout europe!!! My time will not be wasted on correcting your misguided notions. Think and believe that which you shall.....It is of no concern to me....TTFN
British Labor Party was simply on too many sides of the Brexit battle. This evinced that they really had no policy on the most important issue of the day. They came across as very very shifty whose only agenda was coming to power. They would have adopted ANY BREXIT POSITION if it would have simply led to power. Fortunately the public saw through them.
I also believe Corbyn and Labor misread the 2017 election.
2017 was not an embrace of socialism as Novara, Aaron and Michael seem to believe. Rather it was a yearning for a live opposition as the UK approached Brexit uncertainty. By 2019 that issue had been resolved and when you add to the shiftiness noted above you get the result of 2019.
brexit marked high water mark of globalisation i.e. neoliberalism (market fundamentalism) Autarky comes next - democratic i.e. equality and decentralised or fascist i.e. hierarchy and centralised
No, it really didn't.
@@redflag4781 assertions are panto - gimmie a reasoned evidence based argument or admit total shameful defeat lol xx
@@scofflaw7309 You presented an assertion in the original post, nothing more.
The neoliberals are selling fascism hard.
Yes it did! It was a neoliberal project through and through - it made a few people richer and the majority poorer. Sorry if you were gullible enough to fall for it.
Brilliant, thank you