Rob Allen | Max Spear Velocity | Part 2 | 2023
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- Опубліковано 15 лют 2023
- In this specific video, Rob introduces Dylan to speak further on the Maximum Spear Velocity,. He will explain the testing process and the results we have achieved in more detail.
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Very explanative video . Thank you !
You are welcome 👍
Thku for your awesome guns. Appreciate that u never stop trying to make them even beter .and educating us .
Thank you for the kind words👍
I'm so glad to see someone actually approaching this subject from a technical standpoint, amazing video. I would love to see a similar test done with an inverted roller.
One day 😜
It's great to see you leading the way with tests like this and publishing it to the public. It helps us shop guys to understand more and put customers onto the perfect gun for their needs.
If I remember correctly, it's been stated that a roller 130 is equivalent to that of a Twin 16 130, and that the closer to the 130 length, the less the roller actually improves anything. I'd be interested to see/know how a shorter length compares to these longer ones if this is correct.
Thank you for the positive feedback, we are going to publish more results with the shorter-length guns in the future.😎👍
Thanks for a comparison that uses real data and an actual analysis as opposed to pure opinion.
👍👍
Thanks for this series of videos you guys at Rob Allen have been producing.
They are very instructional and help clarify certain myths about the gear we use.
Thank you Rob! It would be interesting to see a comparative difference with different thickness spears like shooting a 7, 7.5, 8 mm out of the same set-up. Obviously, you dont recommend certain diameter spears for those guns, but the data might be interesting. Also as you push a set-up towards the max of performance, does the data change for the roller and standard set-up. As in- does the gap get further? It took me a long time to jump on the roller train, but for spearfishing here in Hawaii I absolutely love them. Thanks for all this hard work.
We aim to do many more high speed camera videos when time allows so yes, we will be doing the spear diameter variation. The logic tells us, if you can get all those spear diameters up to max speed, the lighter spear will slow down sooner than the heavier. Simply put, heavier, more momentum. The rollers feel way better because they take longer to get up to max speed, therefore less recoil. The less the recoil the better the accuracy.
As always thank you RA and team n
Thanks for that. 👍
Questo video ha riscontri ingegneristici. Mi piace
Exelent explanation!!
This is really good stuff, the kind of information I've been wanting for ages! Thanks team Rob Allen!
Many thanks 👍
Love seen facts vs feelings. So much buddy-science out there. These videos speaks a very clear language - thans RA team!
At the end it probably will be a matter of personal preference. I use mainly a 90 and a 120 RA roller carbon roller.
Compared to the same size of standard guns I mainly love the little recoil.
There was a good question from @whateva648:
"...if you pull the trigger at the same time on both guns, which shaft reaches the target first?"
The answer could include same target distances (3,4,5 meters...) for both test guns.
A figure that is interesting, too, is the reaction time of (a certain) fish.
We see test of guns that can shoot great distances but then fish has more time to react.
And for long shots have time to evade the spear.
Keep it going RA team! Thanks for sharing all this wealth of knowledge.
Cheers from Panama >
Thanks for the kind comments. I agree, some fish are very fast and you need to take into account their direction of movement before taking the shot.
Thankyou Rob, that was great information and data that is hard to find. I would love to see the data on the smaller rollerguns compared to a 1300 conventional gun:)
Very interesting.. exactly the oppisite of what i always believed....well done RA team
😜
Love my RA 90 Roller. Everything I could ever want in a gun. Thanks for the excellent vids!
Finally, some quality data. Well done. It would be interesting to see these relationships tested for various shaft diameters and band thicknesses and preload.
All in the pipe line 😜
So good Rob
Great video. Can you do a test with a standard gun and shorter spear, where the barb barely clears the muzzle?
For example tuna 1200 with a 150cm 7.5 mm spear.
Also same setup but with 14mm rubbers would be interesting.
Theory is that the longer the spear, the more it will wobble when fired and the overhang is not needed.
Good idea, we'll do one when we get a chance.
loves these videos very informative. cant wait for more.
Many thanks 👍
Absolutely excellent video!!!
Thanks for your comment 👍
That is the best video on the subject that I have seen Yet Well done thank you. Looking forward to your next one. These videos could potentially save me a lot of money because I have bought spare guns and have been disappointed with them. My favorite so far is a carbon 120 single roller. The top band has string inside to limit stretch connected to 2 bottom bands one of which says connected. The inverted roller I tried was weak.
Thanks for the kind words 👍
Yahoooo
Brilliant. Well done. Excellent articulation of the actual physics. Would you consider doing such an analysis with what is considered an Invert Roller vs Conventional roller per same length? The double pulley on an invert vs single roller and even perhaps a conventional double roller? Again Bravo and sincere appreciation for your time effort to make this data clear. Cheers
Many thanks for your comments and yes, we will be testing all. An inverted roller test is still a long way off though.
@@RobAllenSpearfishing Thank you Sir! Looking forward to your continued efforts. Cheers.
It wouldn't differ a lot, velocity-wise and acceletation-wise. It was already tested by a Greek channel about 5 years ago, I expect mr Allen's data to be the same just like they were for the roller vs classic setup.
As coincidence will have it, I performed the same pool testing yesterday. I added a kicker band to my 900 roller and was convinced it will be a massive improvement. To my outmost surprise....zero! Could not believe my eyes. Purely on distance, the kicker by itself did nearly the same as the roller...shocked! On the conventional gun I removed one band and it nearly equaled a duel setup. The only conclusion I could make is that practicals are more important than power. I use the shortest 6.5 spear I can fit ...less chance of bending or wobble and changed the open nozzle back to closed for easy loading. On the conventional gun I use two 14mil rubbers....easy to pull and not a disaster if one snaps on a dive. I have an idea that the drag caused by the shooting line is often overlooked (flexibility and diameter)
Good to know you get the same results. Once the spear gets to max rubber contraction velocity, you are only adding recoil if you add more "kick." Yes shooting line is very important. 2mm braided polyester absorbs water so when fired, the spear has to drag that diameter plus the added water. Diffidently a lot slower through the water than 2mm mono. It could also be that braided lines are more textured, hold more water on the boundary layer? Yes surprising, 1,8mm braided Dyneema is as fast or faster than 2mm mono. Some of our customers have gone down to 1,5mm Dyneema because it is that much faster and good for long shots on Wahoo and big mackerel.
That's why i have a roller gun with a booster on the top (like a single band standard gun) AND a booster underneath (acting more like an invert roller)
Thank you for this great demo ! It may be interesting to have the same test with a 90cm or a 100cm. 👌👍
We will do this one soon.
@@RobAllenSpearfishing grat because I pretty sure that the roller will be much better on small size ;-)
@@BOYSOFDAKAR agreed.
As I look at the spear speed vs distance chart I feel like the difference in speed is overplayed in the commentary in the video. Certainly roller has greater speed, but it’s not by that much. Plus, you could also factor in how a reverse mech classic gun may have performed. Perhaps almost equal at 5 meters? The other thing I see is area under the curve, which I suppose could be loosely correlated to overall penetration power (close range and far range), and the classic setup seems like it would in fact have more area under the curve. Thx it’s a great series. Look forward to incoming vids.
Thanks for the comments. We think the big take away here is that the roller gets up to speed much later, inducing way less recoil. The big advantage with that is better accuracy.
This is very interesting, have you also done the same tests on a 1300 double roller to see what the outcome might be, thanks drew
We are still busy with many different set ups, muzzle options etc, and will put them up soon. Either way, our findings are such that no matter what set up you do, you cannot make the spear go faster than the max velocity the rubber can get to. The double roller enables the user to have easier loading on a long roller gun and works well if you get it set up accordingly.
Very interesting, thanks for sharing. Im interested in max velocity related to spears thickness and length
Getting a spear to the max velocity of the rubber is easy. No point driving a light spear with more rubber, as the spear will not go any faster by adding more rubber. As long as you match enough rubber to the spear weight.
Very Nice vídeo!! Can tou share the number results? To compair the diferente of velocity.
Sorry, the actual spear speed we would rather not share.
Amazing shot analysis thank you. I have a Rob Allen Snapper and love the short range power, it's ideal for stalking those grouper around coastal reefs. Assuming the 95cm guns will maintain the same initial velocity with 2 14mm rubbers but then lose energy quicker due to the smaller gun?
We will do a tests with shorter guns but I am also sure you are correct. The shorter spear will have less mass so in my opinion. de-accelerate quicker.
These results are similar to what Apostolos Bekas in his spearfish gr channel found. It looks like we have confirmation that the acceleration is much smoother in rollers. Finally no more "rollers/inverts have double shaft speed" myths.
Congrats on a very informative video!
We are about to test an inverted roller with the pulley system, you might get a surprise.
@@RobAllenSpearfishing New data is always welcome. If inverts show higher speed it would definitely be interesting since previous results showed a similar speed to classic guns (but with roller-like smooth acceleration).
Btw have you thought of also testing a fusion speargun (without pulleys)?
@@aegeanenjoyer668 we try to bet the best performance from the inverted pulley gun and show these results whatever they might be. Regarding other gun brands, no we do not show there results. This is not to say we don't test, we just will not show good or bad results of another brand, we don't see the point.
@@RobAllenSpearfishing Haha my bad I didn't explain it correctly. "Fusion" isn't a brand (like one would say Rob Allen speargun), it's a system like saying invert speargun or classic speargun. It has rubbers (one, two or three) on the bottom and a single rubber (with dyneema going through it in case of more than one bottom rubbers) on top uniting with dyneema going through the same slim rollers invert guns use. But unlike invert spearguns they don't have pulleys, although in the system FKD (fusion k demo) pulleys can be added. If you have a gun set up as an invert it can be set up as a fusion very easily.
When tested they showed a longer maintenance of maximum acceleration compared to rollers and inverts and I was curious if you'd find the same result.
@@aegeanenjoyer668 When I googled the name it came out as a brand 🤣 We don't want to make something too complicated, so a double or triple rubber inverted is what we will test.
Could u please explain the pros and cons of a single roller vs a double roller.
Thanks for the videos.
There are many. First off, double rollers are more expensive and need more work to set up and load. If you need to drive the same, light spear in either and, both set ups get the spear to max velocity then there is no need to go double. However, if you have problems loading a single roller up to max power to get say a 7,5mm spear to max speed, then a double roller with lighter rubbers will do the job. If you need to drive a heavier spear, say 8mm and up, the single roller will not do it, you will need a double. To drive heavier spears though, you also need way more gun mass to help with the recoil of the heavier spear.
@@RobAllenSpearfishing thak you
Hey cameraman Callum.
excellent test, people have quasi religious views about rollers. You should see the comments on my roller vs standard test.
Just read them 😜👍
Thank you for the very useful test results 🤙🏻
So considering all this, if you pull the trigger at the same time on both guns, which shaft reaches the target first?
Good question. Looking at the data, the non-roller gets up to speed sooner so will be ahead of the roller close up. But, once it reaches max speed it obviously then starts to de-accelerate and, seems to slow dawn a little faster top the possible whip or wobble induced by the recoil. So at a point the roller then overtakes the non-roller down range. At the end of the day if both are powered up suitably there is very little difference in it.
@@RobAllenSpearfishing thank you
👨🏫 📊📈🔫💯
Dear Mr Allen, I have a 100cm carbon RA rail gun and it comes with twin 16 bands and a 7.5 shaft. I feel the shaft may be a bit heavy and it drops quickly within range. I'm considering to replace to a 7mm shaft or 6.5 mm shaft, and hope to use a single band instead of twin bands to load up faster. Most of my divings are shore based divings for reef fishes, and most of the fishes are around 2kg and have never seen more than 15kg fishes. Would you please guide me a band vs shaft configuration for this please? Kind Regards, Rui
Hi Rui, You might need to shorten the 2 x 16mm to get more power if you want to continue with that spear. We sometimes make the rubbers longer (we don't recommend it) for specific markets. If you want to drive a 7mm spear, use 2 x 14mm rubbers. If you want to drive a 6,6mm, use a single 16mm.
@@RobAllenSpearfishing Thank you Mr Allen! Do we have a shaft length vs Bands matrix for us to follow? I've been watching your videos and there seems to be a threshold value for each shaft(length and diameter). For example, if the bands power exceed that threshold, it will only adds recoil and it will be under powered if bands get too long. If we only use RA bands, shaft, guns and wonder if you can guide us on this mystery? Kind Regards, Rui
@@ruitian8724 On our RA website we have the different values in the description of the different guns. roballen.co.za/
@@RobAllenSpearfishing awesome!! love you Mr Allen!!
Am I taking your comment right in that if you set up a two band gun to shoot at maximum velocity, that a third rubber would be completely useless? Wouldn’t spearos have figured this out intuitively if true? Or maybe I’m not quite understanding how the maximum velocity works, could third bands obviously help with ease of loading.
Sorry for the delay in answering, some how missed this one. Yes a 3rd band would be somewhat useless if the first 2 were achieving max velocity to the spear. There will be a difference, the 3rd band will get the spear to max velocity sooner but create much more recoil that will induce inaccuracies. This is something most spearos have found out when they over power their gun. If you had 3 thinner bands to help with loading is fine as long as the 3 combined just achieve max spear velocity.
Dr speargun
I would pay a BBQ and beers sesh for everybody here if you test an invert roller !
Soon but don't hold your breath 😁
I bought a carbon 120 inverted roller and was very disappointed. The lack of recoil and accuracy was excellentBut the velocity and range was weak and it was difficult to load.
@@RobAllenSpearfishing Seriously there is a whole market segment awaiting for Rob Allen quality in the Mediterranean. you just need to make very fast guns that can drive accurately lights shaft so we get a chance to catch those pesky Dentex or the odd sardine! ha ha. the thought of a Rob Allen invert roller gives me the bumps!
@@bobbystevens4087 We do plan to build an inverted roller just for testing purposes soon.
@@bobbystevens4087 Can you confirm the configuration? I.e. band thickness, band lenght, and shaft diameter. I have built a few carbon ones and they are remarcable if set properly.
Id be interested to know the penetration force at max flat range between the two guns. Ultimately for a 1300 your targeting bigger fish at longer distances 5-7m. Which gun can do this with best with the recall being the threshold factor when powering up the gun to its limits.
The roller 😜
@@RobAllenSpearfishing perhaps because they are both light carbon barrels, i would doubt that double roller would penetrate further at 7m+ than an Abellan abelcore, happy to be proven wrong.
@@khenrick811 I agree with you. To get the spear to have more range it needs to get to max speed, not something you can do easily with a light gun. This is why we are going to build guns, our Timberline range, with even greater mass to accommodate stronger rubbers (3 rubbers and or double rollers) for the thicker spears. For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. The recoil can only be dampened by more gun mass.
@@RobAllenSpearfishing yer thats what ive found in my testing. i would have a look at doin some handle mods to turn your palm outward and align your forearm with the barrel to handle more of the recoil. Check Majdq8 youtube for this. I tested a tripple roller 10mm shaft mid handle with a forearm brace at the but of the gun (circular sleeve) to absorb recoil, worked well.
@@khenrick811 I found that just holding the grip with it slightly rotated in my grip works fine if the gun is powered up but, way better to add mass to the gun. I have been looking at a modified grip, problem is, I'm left handed and will not just make a right handed one with out a left handed option. It also has to be a retro fit option.
You can accelerate the spear to a higher velocity than the maximum spring speed of the rubber by utilising a pulley system in combination with a roller muzzle, is that something we could see on a Rob Allen gun in the future?
We will be testing this but I doubt we would produce them judging feed back we get from most users.
@@RobAllenSpearfishingmost of the issues people have with the multiple pulley design come down to lack of knowledge of the specific principles involved as far as I can tell, compound crossbows have been utilising the same principles very successfully for many years now, the Lancehead F1 being the most applicable to a speargun.
@@texavon6168 I agree. Trouble is, many even have problems with a standard single roller. Adding more complexity to a gun and getting it dialed is is great but, for the majority of the market it's not going to sell. We tend to stick with simple, easy to use gear, where there is way more demand. We will do extensive testing but, unless something really great pops up and demand is there we will not produce one. So, it still might happen, pending testing 😜
@@RobAllenSpearfishing I 100% agree that the simpler the better, less that can go wrong, however being able snipe a big fish from 10x barrel length would be great.
@@RobAllenSpearfishingalso do you have any thoughts on a Tungsten Spear?