I think this is an amazing method. He has a jig that matches the case. The case is (should be) square with the crank. This is a very accurate way to ensure a concentric bore. I knew a machinist who used this method and attested that he has seen runout from a factory cylinder greater than 15 thou. You can even hear the runout just melting away lol. Kudos.
I notice you aren't using torque plates when boring. Just wondering if you ever see blowby or other ring sealing issues with this method? I know H-D says to use them in the manual but I haven't seen much of a difference in measurements between a cylinder with or without the torque plates.
That boring bar would do serious damage for sure but it looks out of place . Did you come up with it diy ? Wonder how much torque it can handle with larger diameters ? Or do you get a lot of spring regardless due to the length ? Interrupted cutting a problem ?
@bsatom The base of the cylinder is chucked and perfect, it's the zoom focusing in and out. This isn't his first camping trip. Ignore the pulsing noise, that's a false positive assessment.
When the cylinders are honed I put them in my torque plates. I leave about 0,25mm (.010") for finish honing. This is easier then with my KwikWay boring bar, it's too large and cumbersom to bore these cylinders, at the end of the day we both get the same results.
John, Did I hear that correctly as leaving .015" dia (.0075" per wall) for hone finish? Just wondering how much time the honing operation takes, assuming coarse stones ......
I have a question: I have an ancient Triumph and I want to bore it out just a little (.20'' pistons are available) to clean it out due to some minor rust damage. Is boring it out lightly perfectly safe for a bone stock engine? It has 1000 original miles and the "guts" still had plenty of oil when I found it - but there is some surface rust in the sleeve. I freed up the pistons and now it turns over by hand. I'm guessing that the rod bearings can be left alone too?
hey, nice vid, i'm having trouble here, i just bought a buell xb 12, harley engine, last owner had a crash and header cracked, the stud bolts on the valve head aparently broke off and were eyeball redrilled, now the holes are angled, that is why the header was installed with bolts instead of studs because they don't line up. taking close inspection there is still stud left in the holes, i was thinking on mill it with an long endmill but the heat sink vanes are to close to one hole...
i did use a victoria milling machine with a vertical head, this was good for 4 bores, ie car engines. but also for single bores. i held the thing down with a ring i made. much safer than holding on what u have. also, with a back plate with a hole to allow the block to sit on and 4 bolts pulling it on. oh, i also made pistons as well. easy when u know how
John, I would like to know more about that boring bar. What is the diameter and how is it attached to your QC tool post? You must have made it yourself... looks like it works real well. Doug
I would have thought that the cylinder would have to be bored in a "as installed" situation. That is being held by torque plates as the cylinder would distort when it is installed.
I don't know about HD but work as a design engineer for another well-known motorcycle brand. Maybe there are engine designs that are more sensitive but none of our production is machined under pre-load. All things in industry are produced with tolerances on form, nothing will ever be perfect and it doesn't need to be for function. It's actually quite likely they get a better cylindricity than what we accept for production. People like to geek out about all sorts of things (maybe to sound more important?) but theories are irrelevant - If these guys are confident in their service and customers are happy with it there's no need for nagging.
@D4L33tz0r same, the bearings are all shot on our schools. There is so much play in them that the tool vibrates while cutting leaving a horrible finish
when doing that, do you torque them down to engine spec on the jig? and im assuming this isnt your first time, but i noticed you didnt put the other 2 jug bolts in, does it make any real difference? Just curious thanks
what kind of tooling do you use(and boring bar)? it looks like 1/4" carbide tip tools in the bar(that can't be right can it?), but i can't tell via video.
Hy, thanks for the reply I am not a novice. I know for every new boring you need the right oversize piston with his rings. I just was arguing about the original outer layer of a cylinder is hardened by the factory and once you bore too much you get on the softer (untreated) material. I don't know what HD says about the max bore... Anyway what are the results? do you feel it has more torque?
You have get an oversize piston from an authorized or after-market supplier. Only worked on 70/80's Japanese bikes (no offense intended, a bike is a bike is a bike) but the principle is the same. Pistons 0.25, 0.50, 0.75 & 1.0 mm over-sized were available. This guy's going up over 3 mm (3.75 to 3.875 in. huge).
Theres alot of guys hating in here. Saying excessive run out, why no torque plate ect. He has a centering jig in the lathe, it has a few grub screws to lock it in and he used 2 what looks to be head studs to lock it down. And he most likely used a dial indicator to make sure its true to make sure he has no run out. Why would he use a torque plate? Hes not taking enough material off in a single pass to distort the cylinder or untrue it while cutting. And with the jig he had its not going to let the cylinder shift mid cut so again why would he need a torque plate? Ive taken engine a few bore sizes over with nothing but a listle boring hone and sandpaper. Its a 4stone adjustable hone made for boring cylinders and it requires nothing but a half inch drill and some micrometers.
So many people sit here and don't even really watch closely......they just assume is wobbles....If you look closely the camera is constantly trying to focus on the rotating block......It is NOT the machine or block itself wobbling, but just the camera constantly refocusing.
@phranklyn its running in reverse based on the side the cutter is working if it were rotating counter clockwise it would be vibrating and chattering like none other also not to mention it wouldn't really be cutting
yep here is a fixture that bolts on on the cylinder head and stay on the steady rest.... altough i wold not ever do a job like tihs on lathe :) ups commenting to a 9 years old post :)
@ericg83z Yeah, if you ignore the beam, the chuck arbor... the fact that it has an end stock with a boring bar attached...it looks just like a totally different tool with a different shape and apparatus. Hmm kinda looks like a snow cone maker.
@Mrpsychotehpyro not that comes to mind, but he couldve put the other 2 jug bolts in the jug, torqued them down to engine spec and maybe wrap a large wet cloth around the cyl to help with the chatter
Hi. You remind me my job. It was nearly 8 years ago. It was exactly the same what you do. The same equipment. But, I left 0,07-0,09 mm for the honing. All this process from boring to honing takes 15-35 min. Nice job, but boring for me. To theyellow240z. All cylinders are centered before boring process.
Why is the lathe going backwards and taking the cut at the rear ? I've bored many motorcycle and stationary engine cylinders conventionally in a big Dean Smith and Grace lathe made in 1936 and never had a problem with concentricity or finish. And, judging by the comments I've read, there are few engineers out there.
+mossturn01 So you can see whats going on. When you run the lathe the other way, you can't easily see the cutter contact point. Spin in reverse and move the cutter to the other side you can keep an eye on it without leaning over the spinning machine.
I don't ride bikes, I just do machine work. I race Fiat's. The Japanese bikes are very hard to beat and they certainly have lots of innovations that American producers thumb their noses at. If I did ride, I would purchase an Import bike, nothing domestic.
.015 left in to hone? Why so much? I've bored hundreds of motorcycle cylinders and only leave .001 - .003 for honing. Generally just the piston to cylinder wall clearance is all that is honed. Honing huge amounts tends to taper the bore plus is very time consuming.
your lathe is very good, the lathes at my school are very horrible, you can't get anything perfect with them, but yea they are still good for their age (40-50 years old)
nice video. i have a machine shop with more dan 45 machines. and i do motorcycle block rebore... with that much pass in the video. i can do it in 2 or 3 cuts... the last cut is just a fast clean up cut , den hone ,,,but nice video. keep it up
Harley cylinders have to be clamped down to simulate the pressure applied when bolted down on the machine (bike) why are you doing it this way ? and don't you have a proper boring bar ? guess we do it different in England...!
Harley riders do this so they can put in a BIGGER piston to make their bikes sounds even more tough. That coupled with wearing leather and NOT wearing a helmet makes the rider feel like a BIGGER man than any other motorcycle rider on the road.
@bsatom I trust Johns work way more then your terrible opinion. I've watched almost every video he has to offer, and this man knows what he is doing........I did watch and listen closely and I can tell you you're wrong... All I can tell you to get a life and move on.
That would be a heck of a setup in a lathe to prevent any cylinder runout!
Very nice fixture you have there !
I think this is an amazing method. He has a jig that matches the case. The case is (should be) square with the crank. This is a very accurate way to ensure a concentric bore. I knew a machinist who used this method and attested that he has seen runout from a factory cylinder greater than 15 thou. You can even hear the runout just melting away lol. Kudos.
I notice you aren't using torque plates when boring. Just wondering if you ever see blowby or other ring sealing issues with this method? I know H-D says to use them in the manual but I haven't seen much of a difference in measurements between a cylinder with or without the torque plates.
That boring bar would do serious damage for sure but it looks out of place . Did you come up with it diy ? Wonder how much torque it can handle with larger diameters ? Or do you get a lot of spring regardless due to the length ? Interrupted cutting a problem ?
@bsatom The base of the cylinder is chucked and perfect, it's the zoom focusing in and out. This isn't his first camping trip. Ignore the pulsing noise, that's a false positive assessment.
When the cylinders are honed I put them in my torque plates. I leave about 0,25mm (.010") for finish honing. This is easier then with my KwikWay boring bar, it's too large and cumbersom to bore these cylinders, at the end of the day we both get the same results.
So what do you do them with if not the Kwik Way?
Snap gauges are for external work and I haven't seen a commercially made one in years. What you need is a telescoping gauge.
i like the way you fixing the cylinder on the machine i will try it in my workshop in my country
John,
Did I hear that correctly as leaving .015" dia (.0075" per wall) for hone finish?
Just wondering how much time the honing operation takes, assuming coarse stones ......
I have a question: I have an ancient Triumph and I want to bore it out just a little (.20'' pistons are available) to clean it out due to some minor rust damage. Is boring it out lightly perfectly safe for a bone stock engine? It has 1000 original miles and the "guts" still had plenty of oil when I found it - but there is some surface rust in the sleeve. I freed up the pistons and now it turns over by hand. I'm guessing that the rod bearings can be left alone too?
Hi John .015 thou you leave for Honing?/ isnt tht a bit much or was it a error.. isnt .005 more normal for finish Hone? Thanx
hey, nice vid, i'm having trouble here, i just bought a buell xb 12, harley engine, last owner had a crash and header cracked, the stud bolts on the valve head aparently broke off and were eyeball redrilled, now the holes are angled, that is why the header was installed with bolts instead of studs because they don't line up. taking close inspection there is still stud left in the holes, i was thinking on mill it with an long endmill but the heat sink vanes are to close to one hole...
i did use a victoria milling machine with a vertical head, this was good for 4 bores, ie car engines. but also for single bores. i held the thing down with a ring i made. much safer than holding on what u have. also, with a back plate with a hole to allow the block to sit on and 4 bolts pulling it on. oh, i also made pistons as well. easy when u know how
John,
I would like to know more about that boring bar. What is the diameter and how is it attached to your QC tool post? You must have made it yourself... looks like it works real well.
Doug
I would have thought that the cylinder would have to be bored in a "as installed" situation. That is being held by torque plates as the cylinder would distort when it is installed.
I don't know about HD but work as a design engineer for another well-known motorcycle brand. Maybe there are engine designs that are more sensitive but none of our production is machined under pre-load. All things in industry are produced with tolerances on form, nothing will ever be perfect and it doesn't need to be for function. It's actually quite likely they get a better cylindricity than what we accept for production. People like to geek out about all sorts of things (maybe to sound more important?) but theories are irrelevant - If these guys are confident in their service and customers are happy with it there's no need for nagging.
@@computername
Who was nagging?
Hey is there any bad effect of bike engine boring?
@D4L33tz0r same, the bearings are all shot on our schools. There is so much play in them that the tool vibrates while cutting leaving a horrible finish
keep them comeing jon i love them
when doing that, do you torque them down to engine spec on the jig? and im assuming this isnt your first time, but i noticed you didnt put the other 2 jug bolts in, does it make any real difference? Just curious thanks
what kind of tooling do you use(and boring bar)? it looks like 1/4" carbide tip tools in the bar(that can't be right can it?), but i can't tell via video.
Hy, thanks for the reply I am not a novice. I know for every new boring you need the right oversize piston with his rings.
I just was arguing about the original outer layer of a cylinder is hardened by the factory and once you bore too much you get on the softer (untreated) material.
I don't know what HD says about the max bore...
Anyway what are the results? do you feel it has more torque?
Very good i´m from brazil, good work this is cilinder of harly motocicle?
in a cilinder, isn't it a fact that only the outer layer of the cylinder is hardened? Therefor the deeper you bore the softer it gets. Or am I wrong?
You have get an oversize piston from an authorized or after-market supplier. Only worked on 70/80's Japanese bikes (no offense intended, a bike is a bike is a bike) but the principle is the same. Pistons 0.25, 0.50, 0.75 & 1.0 mm over-sized were available. This guy's going up over 3 mm (3.75 to 3.875 in. huge).
Theres alot of guys hating in here. Saying excessive run out, why no torque plate ect.
He has a centering jig in the lathe, it has a few grub screws to lock it in and he used 2 what looks to be head studs to lock it down. And he most likely used a dial indicator to make sure its true to make sure he has no run out.
Why would he use a torque plate? Hes not taking enough material off in a single pass to distort the cylinder or untrue it while cutting. And with the jig he had its not going to let the cylinder shift mid cut so again why would he need a torque plate?
Ive taken engine a few bore sizes over with nothing but a listle boring hone and sandpaper. Its a 4stone adjustable hone made for boring cylinders and it requires nothing but a half inch drill and some micrometers.
So many people sit here and don't even really watch closely......they just assume is wobbles....If you look closely the camera is constantly trying to focus on the rotating block......It is NOT the machine or block itself wobbling, but just the camera constantly refocusing.
@phranklyn its running in reverse based on the side the cutter is working if it were rotating counter clockwise it would be vibrating and chattering like none other also not to mention it wouldn't really be cutting
yep here is a fixture that bolts on on the cylinder head and stay on the steady rest.... altough i wold not ever do a job like tihs on lathe :) ups commenting to a 9 years old post :)
@ericg83z Yeah, if you ignore the beam, the chuck arbor... the fact that it has an end stock with a boring bar attached...it looks just like a totally different tool with a different shape and apparatus. Hmm kinda looks like a snow cone maker.
nice video
@Mrpsychotehpyro not that comes to mind, but he couldve put the other 2 jug bolts in the jug, torqued them down to engine spec and maybe wrap a large wet cloth around the cyl to help with the chatter
Rest In Peace John
Hi. You remind me my job. It was nearly 8 years ago. It was exactly the same what you do. The same equipment. But, I left 0,07-0,09 mm for the honing. All this process from boring to honing takes 15-35 min. Nice job, but boring for me.
To theyellow240z. All cylinders are centered before boring process.
Why is the lathe going backwards and taking the cut at the rear ? I've bored many motorcycle and stationary engine cylinders conventionally in a big Dean Smith and Grace lathe made in 1936 and never had a problem with concentricity or finish. And, judging by the comments I've read, there are few engineers out there.
+mossturn01 So you can see whats going on. When you run the lathe the other way, you can't easily see the cutter contact point. Spin in reverse and move the cutter to the other side you can keep an eye on it without leaning over the spinning machine.
Yep' makes perfect sense though I've never done it myself.
hi
nice work but i think using a cylinder boring machine will be better than using lath .
wishing you all the best of luck.
I don't ride bikes, I just do machine work. I race Fiat's. The Japanese bikes are very hard to beat and they certainly have lots of innovations that American producers thumb their noses at. If I did ride, I would purchase an Import bike, nothing domestic.
Got a 2013hd sportster 72and was wonderig how mony or if any extra cubic inches you can cafley get buy boring and ride like normal?
A good mandrel for boring cylinders
massive cylinder.
Why is the Lathe 'back-to-front'?
@Ryknfjor - I get them within .-10" to .015" and then clamp them.
who is really good in setting up yamaha jog?
nice work !!!
do you think you may get some run out
without a support on other side of barrel ?
I hear the runout on the first pass. I'd have no faith in this method.
MrZcotty
you can hear the thing chattering . the barrell is positioned way too far out in front of the headstock .
can this be done using cnc lathe also
.015 left in to hone? Why so much? I've bored hundreds of motorcycle cylinders and only leave .001 - .003 for honing. Generally just the piston to cylinder wall clearance is all that is honed. Honing huge amounts tends to taper the bore plus is very time consuming.
@phranklyn - Its easier to see the cut on the back side...
@Mrpsychotehpyro yes they have many different contraptions to hold odd size work,
Hmmm...boring HD cyls without torque plating them. Could you explain pls.
koko3052 I was wondering the same thing.
Obviously, a major oversight. ..... shame on the customer. Should have specified torque plate be fitted prior to boring.
Man three passes @ 40 thousands each, I didn't know the cylinders had that much meat in them.
your lathe is very good, the lathes at my school are very horrible, you can't get anything perfect with them, but yea they are still good for their age (40-50 years old)
pls kindly send me how the 4stroke engine works with photos
Shouldn't you be using a deck plate and a real boring bar?
nice video. i have a machine shop with more dan 45 machines. and i do motorcycle block rebore... with that much pass in the video. i can do it in 2 or 3 cuts... the last cut is just a fast clean up cut , den hone ,,,but nice video. keep it up
What about Honing?
nice
What exactly does boring do? Can someone give me a quick rundown?
I have an 83 HD sporster 1000cc I just bought and it's bored to 1200
Oh awesome. Sorry still learning. Gotta learn somehow. Thank you for the insight
you don't have an 83 bored to 1200. whoever sold it to you lied. Ironheads cannot be bored to 1200 cc they must be stroked in order to get 1200.
SentinelFPS makes the internal diameter bigger increasing the cubic centimetres
when an engine gets ware ( lots of miles) the cylinder gets out of round. Easiest thing to do is bore it to a new round and install a bigger piston.
Why do you run the spindle backward?
+John Farr he is cutting on the back side cylinder is running toward the cutter.
+DOUGLAS ANDERSON Yes I see that, but why is he cutting on the back side?
+John Farr One reason is so that fine adjustments can be made with the compound slide.
Хм, а почему резец и вращение патрона в обратном направлении?
Harley cylinders have to be clamped down to simulate the pressure applied when bolted down on the machine (bike) why are you doing it this way ? and don't you have a proper boring bar ? guess we do it different in England...!
no torque plates, and who bores a bike cylinder on a lathe?
you had to take out an 1/8 of an inch to get the thing to clean up? that's an awful lot.
+ulisscarple It has nothing to do with cleaning up. Its going from 883cc to 1200cc.
.
Money Maker For fucks sake. Please tell me your trolling, and not that stupid.
.
.
@bsatom thats true
You dont have any clue how to bore out harley davidson cylinders. Where are the torque plates?
gimmick
He mentions he hones to size with torque plates after boring.
take another 40 , then another 40 , then another 40 , then 140, then another 40 , then into the aluminum , then another 40
Harley riders do this so they can put in a BIGGER piston to make their bikes sounds even more tough. That coupled with wearing leather and NOT wearing a helmet makes the rider feel like a BIGGER man than any other motorcycle rider on the road.
Ah, a little snowflake! Who only wishes he had a Harley. That way he can get out of his mommy's basement
you could say that this video wasnt so boring hehe...
A Hehehe ;-)
Some chatter there.....haha...put up a steady rest :-D
(Hmm has anyone ever invented a steady with some sort of collar to stabilize work like this ^^)
yeah.. like the title says - this is a bit boring...
@bsatom I trust Johns work way more then your terrible opinion. I've watched almost every video he has to offer, and this man knows what he is doing........I did watch and listen closely and I can tell you you're wrong...
All I can tell you to get a life and move on.
23 cylinders downvoted this
RIP
Nice!
Boring
BORING
Bloody screen, so real!
cylinders
Me toooooo......
No it's been long time and I no they close the shop .. do they have a new shop or new place
Cyl boring on a harley???? what for? it s still a piece of s..t of engine.
Ini hanya arsip pribadi... dan bukanlah status...
interesting
you sound like charlie sheen.... and im not sure if that's a compliment or an insult, so ill apologize now in advance :|
this video was really boring. think about that one
মামুন
И всё?!
usinage - online . com / fr
plateforme d'usinage
i m naleem
effectively..boring.. I'm joking :)
This video was "BORING".
A boring job!
nice