as a bmw tech. the new engine is no longer honed cylinderical (its tapered). they called it form honing, which greatly reduced thermal distrotion at tdc and already reduced friction at bdc. also the top rod bearing ,they use irox coating for msa stop and go, which supply lubrication when engine is stopped . its coated red.
Steph actually mentioned the start/stop rod bearing coating before in his B58 VS 2JZ video, if I remember correctly. He said they were not thrilled with the reliability at the power levels and rotating speeds they run around the track, so he switched to a rod bearing without the coating. Pretty interesting stuff
Different requirements, it's the same difference as with the Vandervell vp2 brg. and something like Glacier tin alloy. Especially if they are running on a tuftrided or Nitrided crank. The Glacier will ultimately take more load, where as the Vandervell will take more damage and tolerate contamination to a far greater degree
Love this, Papadakis with the zero BS! Saying what doesn’t matter at all, which I agree with. So much is stories, and like he says, unless it’s proven to him, he ain’t doing it. ❤
I've been watching Formula Drift and other drift leagues for years, and Papadakis is pretty much the highest standard around the world for engine builders in drifting. Rarely do you ever hear of mechanical engine isssues with their built cars. After watching this video, it's clear why that is with how meticulous the engine building process is.
One wonders how much slop finds its way into the factory setup and how much more reliability is achieved by this kind of attention to detail. Close enough ends up being sufficient but seeing what can be achieved is really eye opening! Thank you
Another cool source of engine building info wascwhen Steve Dinan was on 'The Smoking Tire' Podcast a few years back. Talked about building the V8 for the BMW prototype cars and what it took to get the extra power while working within the rules.
A proper engine build. Love seeing Davin and Stephan nerding out. Couple of questions: In the same engine family of the B58 you have the more sports oriented S58. Why is the S58 not used for this application? Also Toyota has a very sturdy 3.5 V6 on the shelf. Why is that one not selected? Also surprising to see a manual gearbox in a drift car. Makes it a long drivetrain for a initial FWD car, makes lovely inline 6 noise though. Keep up the good work.
B58 because it's still a Toyota product (since it's used in the Supra) while S58 is not. For your second question, I'm guessing either the Toyota V6 can't make that much power reliably and/or size constraints.
@@TML34 Of course it is made by BMW, but it's put by Toyota in their car and even has a Toyota part number for every part. If they are trying to use Toyota parts, the Supra B58 is fair game, but the S58 is not.
The S58 engine is an M division sports car engine with much lower availability and significantly higher cost compared to the B58. The question isn't "why not S58", instead "why anything else other than B58". The thing is, the B58 is an engine BMW engineered to propel a significant portion of their product line-up. The B58 is used in X4, X3, M440, M140i, M240i, 340, X5, X6, X7, 540i, 740i, Supra, Z4... This engine was engineered with the purpose of receiving different pistons, compressions, turbine sizes and cams according to the application since it goes in manual Supras and also goes to hybridized powertrains focused in comfort and efficiency inside large, heavy SUVs. So, production reduces costs. The second thing is that BMW engineered this engine with alot of headroom since its supposed to endure the most varied of applications, and this is all these people need. They are going to strip alot from these engines and use their own programable ECUs, own cams, own turbochargers, intake manifolds, exhaust manifolds, injectors, pistons, con-rods, transmissions, pumps, coolers, intercoolers etc All they need is a beefy block, tough cylinder head that gives flow with little modifications, enough bearing area to keep up with the pressure and thats it, all else they will source/develop themselves. Many expensive qualities and goodies from an S58 would be striped away because they wouldn't fit such application anyways.
The break in oil question and his reaction were fantastic! Do remember he is going to have spare engines sitting ready to go. They don’t have time to break it in after rushing to put one in. Fill it full of fluids, and treat it how it’s going to be and he’s trusting it will be right and ready out of the gate. Both cars on his team are running this engine now so it’s been proven as much as it can but all of the big teams are like this.
When I started the video I thought that I didn’t have time for an 1 hour and 8 minute video but I was wrong. Once I started I couldn’t stop. I enjoyed every minute and want to thank everyone for the production. Great job.
Watching a professional who makes equipment truly survive at amazing levels is pure joy, so nice Davin is able to access people like this to share with us. And Kudos on some of the questions Davin, very interesting. Thanks!
To think that my engine was rebuild with around 70% of precision shown here and it still held over 1000hp reliably for 2 years (now killed it with stone through oild radiator 😢). I run grandfather of B58 ... N54! I learnt a lot for my rebuild from first B58 engine build Papadakis did on his YT few years back - a goldmine of knowledge!
I gave this dude a thumbs up as he was roamin around formula d and this dude gave one me back I almost died. My buddy got a picture with him but still what a god among men yknow
Love how bmw is responsible for one of the best boosted inline 6 platforms around currently. As someone who boosted non turbo m5x/s5x engines in the early-mid 00s this makes me happy. Funny thing is we were the first to make 1000whp with a m52 back in like 2007 and that was like untouchable power. Nowadays thats normal.😂
Toyota had a lot of influence. The Supra's chief engineer explained how they took the B58 apart and studied every part of it and they would send parts back to Japan for further analysis. Toyota's partnership with BMW pre-dates the creation of the B58.
42:40 , fun fact, the b58 borrowed the block and crankshaft from the b57 diesel, thats why the b58 has a ton of stroke and small bore and is capable of 850hp.
Hey Davin and Hagerty, what if You do a GoDevil Engine from a Willys Overland M38 ?! To make old Hero running smoothly again 😃 Great motor builds Guys!
Kinda surprised we aren’t using lasers to get accurate measurements for clearances/ tolerance. Nothing wrong with taking measurements the old way and maybe it’s just not worth the price but at this level of performance I would think it would be somewhat more beneficial. Could also better account for wear at end of race season.
Assembly lube type, to me its simple, if your storing it for weeks or months before start up, use a thick greasy lube so its still there when needed. If you starting it soon after build then lube type dont matter, just use one
Love this so much, thank you @hagerty. Stephen P is so great at teaching, these longer well explained UA-cam videos are so refreshing compared to a lot of other “car UA-camr” crap
I like the Amsoil Assembly lube and Amsoil in general. The B58 motor is one incredible motor.. So much potential!! Cool story about Amsoil the way it began.. I would say a lot of technology came from plane Then Jet technology.
Some of the topics they talked about, especially about block taper etc, would be super interesting to get something like a bmw engineer in to, if nothing else, explain why seemingly all blocks have tapered bores.
Eliminate water pump use electric water pump also eliminating the need for a thermostat is genius, just set the engine computer to activate a relay to the performance electric water pump when it's up to temperature and turn off when it gets too cold. Mechanical matter pumps push water against a restrictive thermostat takes alot of force to push that water past a thermostat especially high rpm. Amazing setup he did very very smart
Fly wheel mass being a benefit to chain driven Cam train stability is very interesting. I guess using a heavier balancer on the crank nose of a typical cam drive configuration might be a good thing ?
The more I see papidakis talk about the b58 the more and more I want to swap one in my car, they are really good motors…especially on the Toyota side we haven’t had any come to the shop with engine issues…
In relation to if manufacturers use a break in oil i doubt it. When we do a pre delivery inspection the oil level is always on the low mark just to save money .
The break in oil is actually able to bind to the metal chemically, intermolecular forces i believe. So the wearing that is happening initially is a microscopic chemical wearing, not as much mechanical wear I believe. Probably still not that necessary 100% of the time like you said.
The shells are oil distributors and the miniscule difference in std and plus or minus increment shells is so slight. There are many engines manufactured with selective fit mains. The old way was to make accepted clearance wider to reduce scrapping loose spec parts. With size range shells you can make up for blocks with honed bearing openings and crank journals that needed more polish finish to get acceptable journal dimensional quality. The selective shells allows the oil clearance to be optimal and not throw away blocks and cranks. Most main bearing fails wreck the crank and block and the extra work selecting bearings from a more expensive bearing kit is very rare, a new engine is installed.
For a factory block, they have to pick a compromise. I don't think you can have a perfect mass produced engine. You'll have variation in production and hence you'll see some engines that put out different Dyno numbers than others. Also when a factory engine is assembled, you aren't checking every single clearance 10 times. You assemble everything and turn it. If it doesn't bind, send it. Direct injection plus port injection imho would be the best bet. Probably the tuner wants to cool the cylinder charge with fuel however this also slowly kills the engine, is less efficient and gasoline is a poor conductor of heat. Water meth injection works much better for cooling and is a fuel as well.
The discussion on ring position was interesting. Seemed a bit vague and hesitant. Especially given the absolute master class he gave in measuring the stretch of rod end cap bolts previously. And suggesting installation of pistons with WD40??? A penetrative substance with zero viscosity quality. Not sure I agree on that one lol
I imagine that mixing up the bearings like that would possibly cause an edge that the crank journal could get scraped on because of the height difference.
Holy cow this thing is still wet sump not even dry sump yet thats crazy. Does it use some kind of oil pressure resivior canister a backup if the oil pressure drops like a canton racing accusump or morosso oil accumulator
19:00 I wouldn't be surprised if that's true. FEA has come a VERY long way in just 20 years - OEMs can DEFINITELY account for this kind of distortion and reverse-engineer it into the CNC program quite easily nowadays, IMHO.
What are the best platforms for buying old race cars from Japan or crate motors to take apart or do you recommended to take it apart my step dad is older stelantis but he doesn’t wanna do to much like turbo ish or like anything best 500whp but he has forums and freinds and stuff
You can sense the tension of 2 master engine builders talking shop on how each personally works and gets it done. Love it.
Grabbing a beer and sitting in the hot tub for the next 1 hour and 8 minutes watching this, the Timelapse was incredible as always 👌
Beat you to it.
Good to know
damn lady!! you like this engine stuff too?
Yes, Hagerty. Much, much, MUCH more of this kind of content.
as a bmw tech. the new engine is no longer honed cylinderical (its tapered). they called it form honing, which greatly reduced thermal distrotion at tdc and already reduced friction at bdc. also the top rod bearing ,they use irox coating for msa stop and go, which supply lubrication when engine is stopped . its coated red.
Steph actually mentioned the start/stop rod bearing coating before in his B58 VS 2JZ video, if I remember correctly. He said they were not thrilled with the reliability at the power levels and rotating speeds they run around the track, so he switched to a rod bearing without the coating. Pretty interesting stuff
Different requirements, it's the same difference as with the Vandervell vp2 brg. and something like Glacier tin alloy. Especially if they are running on a tuftrided or Nitrided crank. The Glacier will ultimately take more load, where as the Vandervell will take more damage and tolerate contamination to a far greater degree
Those bearings feel almost like silicone, it feels weird.
Love this, Papadakis with the zero BS! Saying what doesn’t matter at all, which I agree with. So much is stories, and like he says, unless it’s proven to him, he ain’t doing it. ❤
13:00 brilliant discussion on torque, torque error and stretch. F=KX, K = Modulus of elasticity, X = stretch.
Yes yes yes! Two of my favorite people in one video! Much love to Papadakis.
Stephan Papadakis is an amazing engine builder. Love watching a modern build with a true expert.
Gotta agree with papa..
80’s 90’s Japanese service manuals were the BEST!
Cause they were Japanese not German!!😂
It is stuff like this that reminds me, constantly... that I made a wrong career choice. Thank you Stephan and Devin, you guys are Masters!
@@dalesmit7869 exactly the same here! I dream of this stuff… never did so of banking. Well nightmares maybe;)
I've been watching Formula Drift and other drift leagues for years, and Papadakis is pretty much the highest standard around the world for engine builders in drifting. Rarely do you ever hear of mechanical engine isssues with their built cars. After watching this video, it's clear why that is with how meticulous the engine building process is.
funny how an hour ago i was just rewatching the entire b58 engine series on Papadakis channel.
stephan is the GOAT
11/10 episode!! Knocked it out of the park with this one gents, more episodes like this please!!
An hour of video and I didn't scroll a second.Legends
Love how they took it from the engine clean room all the way to FD Long Beach. Great video guys.
Awesome collaboration. Thank you Papadakis Racing
One wonders how much slop finds its way into the factory setup and how much more reliability is achieved by this kind of attention to detail. Close enough ends up being sufficient but seeing what can be achieved is really eye opening! Thank you
Another cool source of engine building info wascwhen Steve Dinan was on 'The Smoking Tire' Podcast a few years back. Talked about building the V8 for the BMW prototype cars and what it took to get the extra power while working within the rules.
A proper engine build. Love seeing Davin and Stephan nerding out. Couple of questions: In the same engine family of the B58 you have the more sports oriented S58. Why is the S58 not used for this application? Also Toyota has a very sturdy 3.5 V6 on the shelf. Why is that one not selected? Also surprising to see a manual gearbox in a drift car. Makes it a long drivetrain for a initial FWD car, makes lovely inline 6 noise though. Keep up the good work.
B58 because it's still a Toyota product (since it's used in the Supra) while S58 is not. For your second question, I'm guessing either the Toyota V6 can't make that much power reliably and/or size constraints.
@@rsjetthe B58 is 0% Toyota, other than it sits in the engine bay of a Supra, which is also a BMW. Toyota didn’t manufacture a single part of a B58.
@@TML34 Of course it is made by BMW, but it's put by Toyota in their car and even has a Toyota part number for every part. If they are trying to use Toyota parts, the Supra B58 is fair game, but the S58 is not.
I doubt Toyota would sponsor them with the S58 since its not in their engine lineup (yet?)
The S58 engine is an M division sports car engine with much lower availability and significantly higher cost compared to the B58.
The question isn't "why not S58", instead "why anything else other than B58".
The thing is, the B58 is an engine BMW engineered to propel a significant portion of their product line-up. The B58 is used in X4, X3, M440, M140i, M240i, 340, X5, X6, X7, 540i, 740i, Supra, Z4... This engine was engineered with the purpose of receiving different pistons, compressions, turbine sizes and cams according to the application since it goes in manual Supras and also goes to hybridized powertrains focused in comfort and efficiency inside large, heavy SUVs. So, production reduces costs.
The second thing is that BMW engineered this engine with alot of headroom since its supposed to endure the most varied of applications, and this is all these people need.
They are going to strip alot from these engines and use their own programable ECUs, own cams, own turbochargers, intake manifolds, exhaust manifolds, injectors, pistons, con-rods, transmissions, pumps, coolers, intercoolers etc
All they need is a beefy block, tough cylinder head that gives flow with little modifications, enough bearing area to keep up with the pressure and thats it, all else they will source/develop themselves.
Many expensive qualities and goodies from an S58 would be striped away because they wouldn't fit such application anyways.
Davin is da MAN !
Kind Regards from Germany ✌️ Love it👍
This was even better than I expected it to be. More uploads like these, please.
19:08 i wonder if thermal expansion has something to do this more than torque load.
Just incredible and informative! They are truly masters of their craft!
The break in oil question and his reaction were fantastic!
Do remember he is going to have spare engines sitting ready to go. They don’t have time to break it in after rushing to put one in. Fill it full of fluids, and treat it how it’s going to be and he’s trusting it will be right and ready out of the gate. Both cars on his team are running this engine now so it’s been proven as much as it can but all of the big teams are like this.
When I started the video I thought that I didn’t have time for an 1 hour and 8 minute video but I was wrong. Once I started I couldn’t stop. I enjoyed every minute and want to thank everyone for the production. Great job.
BMWs B58 / S58 engines are just amazing.
16:40 a Twist-Ease 0.5, a man of refined taste.
Watching a professional who makes equipment truly survive at amazing levels is pure joy, so nice Davin is able to access people like this to share with us. And Kudos on some of the questions Davin, very interesting. Thanks!
To think that my engine was rebuild with around 70% of precision shown here and it still held over 1000hp reliably for 2 years (now killed it with stone through oild radiator 😢).
I run grandfather of B58 ... N54!
I learnt a lot for my rebuild from first B58 engine build Papadakis did on his YT few years back - a goldmine of knowledge!
I gave this dude a thumbs up as he was roamin around formula d and this dude gave one me back I almost died. My buddy got a picture with him but still what a god among men yknow
Love how bmw is responsible for one of the best boosted inline 6 platforms around currently. As someone who boosted non turbo m5x/s5x engines in the early-mid 00s this makes me happy. Funny thing is we were the first to make 1000whp with a m52 back in like 2007 and that was like untouchable power. Nowadays thats normal.😂
Toyota had a lot of influence. The Supra's chief engineer explained how they took the B58 apart and studied every part of it and they would send parts back to Japan for further analysis. Toyota's partnership with BMW pre-dates the creation of the B58.
The next c8 coming out will have over 1000hp from factory on 93. It's crazy how far hp has gone since the introduction of EVs
I always use synthetic oil for my engine, break-ins and never have a problem.
The level of info in this video is incredible. I’m gonna watch this everytime I build a high level engine
42:40 , fun fact, the b58 borrowed the block and crankshaft from the b57 diesel, thats why the b58 has a ton of stroke and small bore and is capable of 850hp.
Thumbs up for *Davin* being such a gracious host.
His theroy on the bore is probabu just how the tool operates to be fast. It is within spec so its not an issue.
So kinda like a crush washer for the cylinders. Beautiful engine
The thumbnail says Papadakis but the channel says Hagerty. Couldn't click fast enough
1hour. Glorious
Oh man go beat off to the thumbnail too why will ya
Honestly id love to see papadakis do a crazy na straight 6 w his wild exhaust/intake setup
B58 is a fantastic motor, both stock and to build up on.
Hey Davin and Hagerty, what if You do a GoDevil Engine from a Willys Overland M38 ?! To make old Hero running smoothly again 😃
Great motor builds Guys!
Kinda surprised we aren’t using lasers to get accurate measurements for clearances/ tolerance.
Nothing wrong with taking measurements the old way and maybe it’s just not worth the price but at this level of performance I would think it would be somewhat more beneficial.
Could also better account for wear at end of race season.
Maybe cuz its Formula D and not Formula 1, meaning the money and the need for research is there imo
1 hour of a Papa masterclass, OK Hagerty, I'll bite.
Assembly lube type, to me its simple, if your storing it for weeks or months before start up, use a thick greasy lube so its still there when needed.
If you starting it soon after build then lube type dont matter, just use one
Wow wow wow very good inf what a monster
I downloaded this one and save it to my favorite videos
24:40 total seal is awesome
Love this so much, thank you @hagerty. Stephen P is so great at teaching, these longer well explained UA-cam videos are so refreshing compared to a lot of other “car UA-camr” crap
I like the Amsoil Assembly lube and Amsoil in general. The B58 motor is one incredible motor.. So much potential!! Cool story about Amsoil the way it began.. I would say a lot of technology came from plane Then Jet technology.
Great to see Vin Diesel’s brother doing so well
Some of the topics they talked about, especially about block taper etc, would be super interesting to get something like a bmw engineer in to, if nothing else, explain why seemingly all blocks have tapered bores.
To compensate for uneven thermal expansion.
Eliminate water pump use electric water pump also eliminating the need for a thermostat is genius, just set the engine computer to activate a relay to the performance electric water pump when it's up to temperature and turn off when it gets too cold. Mechanical matter pumps push water against a restrictive thermostat takes alot of force to push that water past a thermostat especially high rpm. Amazing setup he did very very smart
Fly wheel mass being a benefit to chain driven Cam train stability is very interesting. I guess using a heavier balancer on the crank nose of a typical cam drive configuration might be a good thing ?
The more I see papidakis talk about the b58 the more and more I want to swap one in my car, they are really good motors…especially on the Toyota side we haven’t had any come to the shop with engine issues…
Best efficient design inline cylinder layout . Only one better is odd number cylinders 5 or 7 cylinders
What a freaking incredible video absolutely loved it!!
In relation to if manufacturers use a break in oil i doubt it. When we do a pre delivery inspection the oil level is always on the low mark just to save money .
The break in oil is actually able to bind to the metal chemically, intermolecular forces i believe. So the wearing that is happening initially is a microscopic chemical wearing, not as much mechanical wear I believe.
Probably still not that necessary 100% of the time like you said.
if you mix a standard and an undersize bearing shell, wouldn't that be (ever so) slightly egg-shaped?
The shells are oil distributors and the miniscule difference in std and plus or minus increment shells is so slight. There are many engines manufactured with selective fit mains. The old way was to make accepted clearance wider to reduce scrapping loose spec parts. With size range shells you can make up for blocks with honed bearing openings and crank journals that needed more polish finish to get acceptable journal dimensional quality. The selective shells allows the oil clearance to be optimal and not throw away blocks and cranks. Most main bearing fails wreck the crank and block and the extra work selecting bearings from a more expensive bearing kit is very rare, a new engine is installed.
Great video, With these new alloy blocks with the sprayed on liners how does a normal machine shop bore and hone them?
For a factory block, they have to pick a compromise. I don't think you can have a perfect mass produced engine. You'll have variation in production and hence you'll see some engines that put out different Dyno numbers than others.
Also when a factory engine is assembled, you aren't checking every single clearance 10 times. You assemble everything and turn it. If it doesn't bind, send it.
Direct injection plus port injection imho would be the best bet. Probably the tuner wants to cool the cylinder charge with fuel however this also slowly kills the engine, is less efficient and gasoline is a poor conductor of heat. Water meth injection works much better for cooling and is a fuel as well.
They are running E85 so they get the cooling in the fuel.
Masters.
What a great video. This is historical.
What product was he dabbing on the head nuts before he torqued them down? White bottle with blue label?
Subbed and belled!
I looked it up and the bottle seems to match ARP assembly lube.
In the video, he said he uses the CP Carillo assembly lube because it has given him better results than the ARP assembly lube
Dam, pride in your work!!!!!
Dude. Yes. Thank you, Hagerty.
What a great ending.
Many thanks for making this sort of content.
I'm sure Stephan's engines cost a pretty penny - but you absolutely get what you pay for.
Huge fan of Papadakis.
Can't wait for a 7MGTE build.
I always wondered, by putting the bearing thicknesses offset one big one small aren't you offsetting the crank ?
This is petrolhead gold 🏅 Thank you guys! 🤩
PAPADAKIS lets gooo
So informative! Likes it!
i love hagerty for this one.
The discussion on ring position was interesting. Seemed a bit vague and hesitant. Especially given the absolute master class he gave in measuring the stretch of rod end cap bolts previously. And suggesting installation of pistons with WD40??? A penetrative substance with zero viscosity quality. Not sure I agree on that one lol
The rod bolt stretch thing he talked about is all described by ARP
Interesting about the torque plate and distorted cylinders
I imagine that mixing up the bearings like that would possibly cause an edge that the crank journal could get scraped on because of the height difference.
Holy cow this thing is still wet sump not even dry sump yet thats crazy. Does it use some kind of oil pressure resivior canister a backup if the oil pressure drops like a canton racing accusump or morosso oil accumulator
This is therapy for Davin after the stress-inducing Subaru rebuild many months ago. 😂
Dom Spec. Ruler!
I think we all wish we could have Papadakis build our engines.
Could the taper not be to compensate for the combustion heat. Hotter at the top of the cylinder, cooler at the bottom? Or am I not understanding.
I love how many stock parts there are on this 1200 hp engine.
Great video. Thank you!
In-line engines are sexy.
Amazing content!
VERY VERY COOL,LOVE IT 😎😎😎😎😎😎😎😎😎😎😎😎😎😎😎😎😎😎😎😎😎😎😎😎😎😎😎😎😎😎😎😎😎😎😎😎😎😎😎😎😎😎😎😎
If Steph says “good enough” is good enough, then there’s no question.
Saludo de puerto rico👍👍👍👍
Modern top notch engineering meets old school engineering.
19:00 I wouldn't be surprised if that's true. FEA has come a VERY long way in just 20 years - OEMs can DEFINITELY account for this kind of distortion and reverse-engineer it into the CNC program quite easily nowadays, IMHO.
Is there any plans to make this a solid lifter conversion for higher rpm
Finally waiting for Papa!
B58 unopened with supporting bolt on parts can make 1100+whp ( 1stock )
I love these engine build walkthroughs. I don't even build engines.
What are the best platforms for buying old race cars from Japan or crate motors to take apart or do you recommended to take it apart my step dad is older stelantis but he doesn’t wanna do to much like turbo ish or like anything best 500whp but he has forums and freinds and stuff
I just want to know what torque wrench he’s using!
an expensive one
Davin specialist V8 engine anda papadakis specialist B58 engine 🔥🔥
I hope to never have to tear into my B58, but sure enough I had to set one hour apart to watch this masterclass.
Specs are just specs, the type of oil you use is goes with the given tolerances you use