How powerful was the Balrog?
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- Опубліковано 23 вер 2024
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I always loved the way Ian McKellen practically spits out the line "...and smote his ruin upon the mountainside"
In the book it's:
"I threw down my enemy, and he fell from the high place and broke the mountain-side where he smote it in his ruin."
I'd pay good money for a LOTR audiobook with Robert narrating. That exerpt in this video was great!
Robert has an audiobook podcast (all platforms) called The Well Told Tale. He’s excellent. It isn’t LOTR, but it’s still Robert reading some of the best fantasy and science fiction stories ever written.
Yes❤
No hate to Robert, but it's hard to beat Andy Serkis...
When I was younger and read this scene for the first time, I had never had a feeling of fear so intense as this. And when Gandalf died, I was distraught for days.
Your essay here does really capture that awe and fear I experienced, that I STILL remember decades later. Thanks!
Thinking back, this was when I realised that this book was *serious.* If Gandalf could be killed, who knows what else could happen? I was overwhelmed.
Then I picked the book back up and absolutely devoured the rest in record time, because I was dying to know what happened next, as well as loving every word of Tolkien's beautiful prose. I wish I could read LOTR for the first time again! Suppose I'll have to do the next best thing and reread it.
I’m envious of how you experienced that. I had the paperback editions that showed Gandalf on the cover of Return of the King, so I knew he wasn’t really gone. It really undercut the drama of that moment for me.
@@thing_under_the_stairs Yes. come to think of it up to that point in my reading history, the only book I remember which dealt with a character death was Old Yeller. So I probably shared that sense of gravity.
@@WestOfEarth I don't think I'd read anything where a major character dies, particularly not early on in the story either, (apart from Agatha Christie mysteries) the first time I read LOTR, and it was a good 15 yrs or so before the movies, so I was not prepared for Gandalf to actually fall. And I give Sir Ian McKellan full credit for bringing that moment of shock and horror back to me when I saw FoTR on the big screen, even though I knew he'd be back in the next film. That was perfect casting, and beautiful acting!
I read LotRs for the first time when I was 10 and I cried so much when Gandalf fell. I put the book down for about a month after that because I was so upset.
“This foe is beyond any of you. RUN!” I absolutely love that line.
I thought he said "any sword" because I remember finding it funny when he pulled out his on the way to the lake under the mountain or whatever
Just a word of gratitude to the channels creator. Very captivating. Beautifully written.
A Balrog is so powerful that the absolute best outcome you can hope for is to die along side it. Any time someone killed a Balrog they died as well
Isn't this in the canon? That you must die to kill it, but is resurrected as a gift from god? I may be misremembering.
@paulogodinho3275 well considering the 3 who managed to kill Balrogs were 2 elves who can revive by nature and Gandalf who cant actually die i guess that is technically true
But Glorfindel--having died in killing a balrog-- was resurrected. And Gandalf--having died in killing a balrog--is resurrected. Those are all the data we have. But the pattern is clear.
@kenbair All elves are resurrected. Its just few if any besides Glorfindel ever return to Middle Earth and to stay in Valinor. Glorfindel was just given a power boost due to his deeds.
Yea but two of the three that we know that have killed one were just mortals, yes elves are mortals, they can still die, and THAT is a massive statement of their abilities if you ask me, imagine for a moment a mere human killed lets say zeus or odin? But died in the process, that would speak volumes of the person who pulled it off no?
"You cannot pass."
It was not a threat. It was not bravado. It was not a declaration that the beast would go no further. It was an order, woven into the very fabric of the world, a magic beyond mere spells that enforced new immutable laws into the very raw substance of reality itself. And we see, indeed, that the Balrog was unable to pass. Had it been a creature not so blinded by malice, a thing whose reason could overpower its wrath, it would have turned and fled back into the dark at that very moment, perceiving the power before it. But evil cannot be restrained by its reason. Its ambition is aimed, but unseeing. And once again we come to the great ironic truth that has woven itself through stories across all times and all cultures: evil unmakes itself.
I love that scene in the Jackson film. As Gandalfs casts down his staff if you watch closely the Balrog snorts arrogantly as if to say "Ha! You're pathetic tricks cannot stop my immense power". Well, that's what I take from it anyway.
Very well put
I sure hope that it does in the real world as well.
"Evil will always triumph, because good is dumb." - Dark Helmet
Perfect
A meeting between Durin's Bane and Smaug in conflict would have been amazing conflict.
What are you thinking the outcome will look like, I think if the balrog basically nullifies smaugs fire and they are forced to fight close then it’ll probably win against smaug
@@squidmanfedsfeds5301 Durins Bane is more durable than Smaug and is magical melee fight goes to him
@@squidmanfedsfeds5301 I think it's Durin's Bane, hands down. Dragons are powerful, but with only a few exceptions, they are not talked about as being on the same order as the Balrogs and other Maiar and Smaug is by no means the most powerful dragon in the Legendarium. Smaug would put up a hell of a fight, though. Definitely an exciting fight to see. If you were to take a hypothetical match-up between any two LotR/Hobbit characters and turn it into a big-budget action sequence, I think you'd be hard pressed to find a better pair.
Regardless, it's a contest that can never really be "won" by Smaug with any sense of permanence. Like all Maiar, the Balrogs are spiritual beings and CANNOT die. Their souls are bound to Arda until its destruction. So, unless Smaug has some way of reducing Durin's Bane so much that it can no longer influence the world around it (as was Sauron's fate after the Ring was destroyed), then Durin's Bane can simply keep coming back until it eventually wins or until Smaug, a mortal being, eventually dies of old age. Unless the Valar step in and capture the Balrog, but they were pretty staunch about not directly intervening in Middle Earth after the First Age.
@squidmanfedsfeds5301 100% the Balrog. No question. Smaug was a living, mortal entity. The Balrog is an angelic being. It's clear that at the time of the Lord of the Rings, the Balrog in Moria still retained much of its spirit undiminished. Combine its excellent physical might, concentrated strength of spirit, and spellcraft. The Balrog wins.
This dynamic might only change if an unusually titanic drake from the first age replaced Smaug. Ancalagon, for example. We're now at a class of mortal beings engineered to, when operated as a smarm, deter an assault by the Valor themselves. Not that they could beat the Valor, but that the war would be so terrible as to scar Arda itself.
You could also alter the playing field if the Balrog is active for longer, perhaps diminishing its spirit like Morgoth.
Do we think that gandalf could beat smaug in equal combat? Why go through the entire story of the hobbit?
I remember, long ago in my first reading of TLotR, my awe and sadness when Gandalf fell with the Balrog.
I had a hope that Gandalf would survive but I didn’t want false hope.
In retrospect, I was glad that Gandalf “didn’t survive”. If he had somehow simply won and was fine, it would have cheapened the exposition of the Balrog and weakened the story as a whole.
This is part of why Tolkien is The Master!
One possible explanation on the power discrepancy between the Balrogs is simply that not all Maiar are created equal. Presumably, the Istari are weaker than Sauron (even without their power limiters on) as Gandalf repeatedly states that they cannot beat Sauron by force. Meanwhile, even among the Istari there seems to be a lot of variation in power. So, it's possible that the more easily defeated Balrogs (mentioned as being the size of a large man) were the more "rank and file" of the Balrogs, while ones like Gothmog and Durin's Bane were the best of the best. The biggest, most powerful, and, consequently, most experienced fighters and magicians.
I wonder if Galdalf's ring, Narya, helped; it being 'fire'.
@@brianj.841 I think so. Gandalf must have had some advantage, because he was missing a good chunk of his power as a maia, basically until he was reborn as "the White". So Durins Bane should have won the fight handily.
Agreed. I’d even argue that Durin’s bane may still have been a lesser or middle of the pack Balrog. That Gandalf managed to beat it after already losing much of his strength earlier that day and after being trapped in human form is quite remarkable.
Ah, I never thought of this. It makes some sense that Narya might have tipped the scales just enough to keep Gandalf in the fight and even help him win
Sauron, not Durin's Bane, is still the big bad at the end of the 3rd age. Sauron is also a maia reduced in strength, partly from defeats at Numenor and Dol Guldur and more from passing is power into the one ring, which he has lost. Durin's Bane could possibly npw defeat Sauron physically, but does not; perhaps he does not want to come out of Moria and become visible to the valar. If Sauron could defeat Durin's Bane then I think he would, because he suffers no equals. Besides, Durin's Bane has stolen Sauron's orc army in Moria.
So if balrogs were capable of casting counterspells, they were more or less enormous demonic wizards.
To be fair, being able to use magic is pretty inherent to all Maiar, not just the wizards. They use it differently, but I think virtually every Maiar that is given a name or any "page time" is shown to use magic at least once. So, you are correct. They are very much demonic wizards, but not because both cast magic, as other beings are capable of casting magic. Finrod Felagund has what is basically a magical rap battle with Sauron during the First Age. Sauron's song is specifically described as a "song of wizardry" and, while Felagund's is not described in those exact words (his is referred to as a "song of staying" as in fortitude and strength against Sauron's attempt to weaken them), I think it's a safe inference to say it was of a similar nature. Most of the Elves and Dwarves are also described as having at least some rudimentary magics, even though few are even shown to have the type of command necessary to do what Sauron and Finrod do. They are demonic wizards because both wizards and the Balrog(s) are Maiar.
Enormous demonic wizard. Coolest job description of a balrog 🔥
Demonic? You are thinking far too closely to what's in the movie. They aren't anything close to that in the books
The Black Wizards as it were
@@weezact7 well said
This video was just recommended to me. Finally found a video essayist who doesn't put obnoxious, generic, unfitting and loudly mixed background music over his voiceover.
6:45 As awesome as the bestial design of Peter Jackson's balrog looks, I wish we'd gotten to see this being of pure shadow whose power is not just in being big and having huge flaming weapons, but in his ability to challenge Gandalf's magic and undo his spells, breaking him spiritually as well as physically. Much harder to depict cinematically, I know, so I don't blame Pete for the direction he chose, but if done right this more book-accurate take would have been TERRIFYING!!!
Ahhh...Good ole Pete.
9:40 I appreciate how you put Gandalf the White slightly below Sauron but slightly above Saruman (the Broken).
It's a tiny detail, but you thought about it (enough to put it in the video, even).
Please know that we, your audience, notice and appreciate all those tiny details you kindly and diligently put into your videos 🧡
Thanks for the great lord of the rings content man! Keep of the good work and don’t get discouraged, we’re all here to support you and listen to the wonderful vocals. Very relaxing.
Sir, you stand alone as the ONLY fantasy themed channel I can think of that doesn't flood my homepage with Rings of Power reaction videos. How the race of man decays around you.
Id like to expand your Quality LOTR themed Channels, by recommending you "Tolkien Untangled". Like Robert here, TU has high quality LOTR lore and no ROP reaction, so once you have completed all of Roberts Content and find yourself with some time to spare, i can recommend you check him out.
@@KFPSchnitzelkochTschango Thanks cuz! I actually am subbed to that channel. I am mostly frustrated with Nerd of the Rings, to the point where I unsubscribed. Men of the West are kind of following this dark path as well as TBS.
Check out Steven Gibbs (formerly The Red Book)
It's worth noting that the idea that particularly potent First Age elves can overcome a Balrog whereas by Lord of the Rings, only the Istari have the power to defeat it (or perhaps Elrond or Galadriel if they could focus their rings to such a purpose) does have some consistency - elves of the first age were substantially more powerful than younger elves like Legolas. Fingolfin notably proves to be a serious challenge to Morgoth himself, delivering seven wounds that never heal. If an elf can do that to a fallen Vala, it stands to reason that another might be a match for a fallen Maia (thanks to ludwigfranzpl for giving me the singulars for Valar/Maiar)
This also very much fits the sense of decay (or diminishment, perhaps) in Middle Earth. The First Age was an age of great powers. And this Balrog is a remnant of those powers. It takes someone else from that time to face it, and of the Fellowship, only Gandalf even comes close.
I remeber how i read a theory that they were more poweful because the bathed in the light of the two trees.
a Vala; a Maia
That's sounds pretty credible imo. In the books, Glorfindel is another from the first age but didn;t go with the Fellowship as they didn;t thing force of might would be the key. Maybe he could have stood with Gandalf?
@@rodnabors7364 Wouldn't have been his frist time. He alsokilled a balrog and died afterwards....the glorfindel we know in the Fellowship was reborn as elves are, then returned to the continent of Middle Earth
Gandalf and the Balrogs were both spirits of fire. One corrupted in service of Melkor the other in service of Manwe.
I feel 'greedily' is an apt description. I imagine there were signs of danger which the Dwarves willingly ignored, long before the Balrog revealed itself.
Second that, and they were digging to obtain the riches of mithril, not just to pass the time or expand their living space. Granted they didn't know the balrog was there, and maybe didn't have any reason to stop, but it's akin to us now mining resources despite the adverse environmental effects. Dwarves, like men, were never content with what they had, always seeking more.
If there were warning signs of a balrog beneath Khazad-dum, Tolkien does not mention them anywhere.
And why shouldn't the dwarves want to mine more mithril? It was the best of metals : corrosion-proof like gold; bright and gleaming like polished silver; stronger than steel when correctly wrought. It seemed it could do or be anything that was wanted.
And, as far as was known to the dwarves of Khazad-dum, it was found only in Khazad-dum. It is rumoured that Numenor had mithril, but I don't think the dwarves ever learned of this before the Downfall.
THANK YOU! Finally someone who acknowledges the difference in the Balrogs from the Silmarillion and the Balrog from LotR! They are not the same as Tolkien created them at different times with different ideas in mind!
So when I saw Fellowship in theaters I had only ever read The Hobbit, and really didn't know much about Lord of the Rings. So I didn't know that Gandalf both died and then came back. And it was a MAJOR shock and gut-punch when he was killed. So the scene definitely works
The cool thing about the Barlog when reading the books is that it's a uknown entity. He is simply known as Durin's Bane but what kind remained a mystery up to that point. Gandalf's first encounter is always special for me because it illustrates just how Moria is a scary place to be in. Balrog's reveal later is that more powerful. Gandalf's fall is more shocking because he needed to improvise on the spot and make a stand unwillingly.
In the movies, they foreshadow his encounter and make it clear that Gandalf knows what he's up against and it takes away from Gandalf's character because in that situation he is expecting that he would have to fight.
Bar log is the spell Gandalf tried to use against the Balrog xd
No he wasn't "simply known as Durin's Bane". Before they met Durin's Bane, they were speaking about balrog this balrog that shadow of the balrog, dwarves dug too deep, etc. Just balrog balrog balrog. When they meet the balrog, Legolas yells "Balrog!" Just balrog everywhere.
Keep in mind, more books written before Lord of the Rings trilogy.
So, you missed the start, middle and only know the end.
The confrontation with the Balrog has always been one of my favourite,bits in all of the Lord of the Rings
The balrog in the movie is impressive but different in appearance from the book. I'd love to see one of the AI/CGI channels tackle the book balrog.
did you see the one where Jazza tried drawing the balrog based more on the book? I thought it was pretty good
Reading the Fellowship BEING SHOOK by the Balrog is LEGENDARY TOLKIEN writing. The THREAT is REAL!
This has easily become my favourite channel on UA-cam. Keep up the great content man
This channel is such a gift to Tolkien lovers who don’t have the time to delve deeply into the Legendarium. I like the new hex motif!
Interesting that Tolkien has the hobbits repeatedly face terrors of the ancient past: barrow wights, balrogs, Ungoliant, and of course Sauron.
Also: In Deep Geek should do an explainer on the Stone of Erech.
Ungoliant's spawn, Shelob, you mean.
Plus the Nine, orcs and wargs (made by Morgoth), trolls, stone giants, the watcher in the water, etc. "Terrors of the ancient past" abound in Middle Earth.
@@infinitytoinfinitysquaredb7836
Trolls are creations of Morgoth too. Why'd you leave them out of that side note?
Edit: And Bilbo encounters Smaug, the last of the great dragons (which are also creations of Morgoth).
I think it was his way of making up the lack of Hobbit presence in The Silmarillion, but specifically in the LotR trilogy, putting readers into a state of the unknown. When the Balrog appears, the Hobbits are completely in the dark about what they face. The other races present have history with the Balrogs from the deep past, but the hobbit effectively become the reader, walking yet again in a forgotten history. But I also like that Hobbits rise to the occasion of the old terrors: Bilbo and Smaug, Frodo against the pull of Sauron, Merry standing against the Witch-King with Eowyn and Samwise defeating the spawn of Ungoliant, Shellob. Pippin also resists Sauron when he picks up the Palantir. Nice to see that Hobbits can quite easily show the same spirit as the First Age heroes.
While it's impossible to say for certain, particularly given Tolkien's revisions over time to Balrogs, I think Durin's Bane was likely the 2nd most powerful of the Balrogs, behind only Gothmog.
Yes because Durins Bane has better feats than all other Balrogs combined including Gothmog
Oh yes. That's what they used to call me. The Balrog. That was my name.
🤣
That would be messed up!
🤣 🤣 🤣 nice!
"That was my name... I am Galrob The."
Until an arrow hit me in the knee.
Just read this section of the books where the fellowship made their way through Moria. This video really explained everything quite well! I also want to say a word of thanks to this channel for re-introducing me to Tolkien. My father read the books to me years ago but reading them as an adult along with these videos is a wonderful experience.
An entomologist in the 1970s named a newly-identified and vicious genera of wasps 'Balrogia'.
Fly you fools😂. I'd hate to run into those.
A more insect like balrog would actually be a really cool and unique take on the creature design, and doesn't really go against any descriptions of it... reminds me of a video I saw of a guy drawing a balrog from the book lines about it, and getting basically the Peter Jackson one, when there are so many other ways for it to be. It's meant to be frightening, so the description is deliberately vague, but that just makes many interpretations plausible.
@@LoLotovBalrogs don't have wings. Peter Jackson made up the wings probably to make the Balrog fit the more recognisable Christian idea of a devil for the cinema audience. In my opinion this was a mistake and just another example of the unnecessary cinematic liberties taken by Jackson.
@@Ian_Carolan Actually, as far as i know, thats still up for debate. Duriens Bane is descriped as having "wings of shadow" and the debate of what exactly that means has been going on for decades. Personally i dont think that matters. Balrogs are Maia, all maia are shapeshifters to some degree (some better, some worse (the Istari are an exeption)). So if a balrog wants to have wings, it can have them.
@@Ian_Carolan wings of shadow
4:49, I'd say its perfectly apt! Was it not the rings that came into their possession that made them delve too greedily, rather than too deep? I think Tolkien was too keen a mind to say 'greedily' and 'deep' without that distinction. Gandalf said this about them in the Hobbit. I'd love to hear a dwarf talk about it, and I wouldn't doubt it happened in canon.
I second the defense of the dwarves. It would be one thing if there were portents and omens, or warnings like 'Gee, the climate seems to get more unstable the deeper we dig'. And it's not like the elves or humans were advising them that it was foolish to dig so deep. Instead they were saying 'Mithral! More mithral! Shut up and take our gold!'.
For a second I thought title was “How beautiful was the Balrog?”
A typical Gandalf sense of Humor: "A Balrog, now I understand. And I am already weary". 😂
11:06 Most agreed!! This is the most underrated scene from both book and movie. The fellowship was truly at risk without Gandalfs presence. I would watch a whole movie dedicated to that battle alone.
How would Smaug have delt with Durins Bane?
So the balrog, being an immortal Maia, would have had a spirit that survived his physical self being killed by Gandalf. Was that spirit able to return to Valinor, or was it, like Sauron and Saruman, blown away and rejected by winds from the West?
We do not know the answer to that. If I had to guess, I'd say the Balrog would be rejected by the Valor since it chose to follow Melkor. Its Fëa left Eä (the created world) and joined Melkor and Sauron in the Void.
@@Uncle_Fred That would also explain why it didn't want to be found.
Imagine the alternate scenario where Balrog was to take posession of the One Ring.
That would be one hell of a grimdark.
I think Nerd of The Rings did a "What If" video of that exact situation. Grimdark indeed
doesnt need it. sauron may be only slightly more powerful than the balrog and so the ring would bring the balrog nothing. in the first age, sauron was the lieutenant of morgoth but wasnt in command of the balrogs.
@@kreuzrittergottes9336 Well it would add a big part of Saurons power to the Balrog, which would make it more powerfull than any other maiar at least.
Would be curious to see how many Balrogs Tolkien mostly settled on as they were able to take on Ungoliant in those ancient days to save Morgoth. Any foe of hers would be powerful to say the least! Cheers!
Right? Morgoth himself needed their immediate assistance. Morgoth, the most powerful being in the pantheon, REQUIRED their *immediate* help. And he actually didn't even do anything except get saved - he didn't actually assist them while they saved him.
Gothmog seems to have been basically on par with Sauron (who is weaker than Morgoth), and no way the rest of the Balrogs were as strong as Gothmog.
Therefore, there HAD to be several, or even many, Balrogs & NOT just a few.
I don't remember the book description, but I know it differed from Jackson's version a little. However, I feel the film version was just wonderful creature design.
So happy I found this place! I’ve been a LOTR enthusiast for the last 40 years. There’s still so much to learn and explore.
So many questions to ask but my first question is how did the balrog get into the mountain in the first place and was he there before the dwarfs
"We fought far under the living earth, where time is not counted. Ever he clutched me, and ever I hewed him, till at last he fled into dark tunnels. They were not made by Durin’s folk, Gimli son of Glóin. Far, far below the deepest delvings of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he. Now I have walked there, but I will bring no report to darken the light of day."
Basically, the dwarves accidentally opened a passage into these unknowable tunnels and passageways that the balrog had occupied.
@@Levacque Godzilla chilling in the hollow-earth when some Dwarves break into his bedroom
@@Levacque I knew about the dwarf tunnelled to deep but what I was wondering was did the belrog get in under the mountain the same way as the nameless things or find another way in
It's a bit if a plot hole created by Tolkien because the Balrogs last fought during the First Age before the Towering Lamps were knocked out and again when the Trees were destroyed so the "Nameless Things" dwell in the deepest depths but are never really shown much and don't seem to escape to the surface to cause havoc and terror as monsters would
So the Balrog is said to just be down there sleeping for ages and doing who knows what other than sleeping so when the Balrog is awoken, it goes on a rage but stays inside the mountain and then doesn't so much until the plot requires it to activate when the Fellowship of the Ring travels through that path.
Even if it probably was not the intention the way the Balrog is depicted is similar to the main cast traveling through as super dangerous area and facing the ultimate boss monster in a videogame before the party has any significant experience and needed weapons simply because the Balrog breaks Gandalf's shield spells and then almost wins if not for the frail bridge.
Makes me feel that if there was no bridge and it was all flat land before the exit that the Balrog would have basically plowed through Gandalf's spells unless Gandalf would have used stronger offensive spells and attacks against the Balrog in the confrontation which initially wasn't possible because of the lack of stable ground.
I love how the movies depicted Gandalf's fall and fight with the Balrog. If one was not already familiar with the story, you see Gandalf falling and it's a terrible and tragic thing. You think all is lost, Gandalf has fallen to his death. But not so fast. Once out of sight of the Fellowship, guy turns into badass mode, dives to his sword and goes to work on his foe! He still dies, but not in the manner we might at first, think.
Video recommendation/request: Why didn't Durin's Bane leave Moria? It certainly had enough time, and would have been easily able to terrorize the unprepared world of the Third Age. So, why didn't it?
"Gah! It's bad enough that these dwarves and orcs have invaded my home. Now, I've got some 'heroes' trespassing. What sad times these are when a Balrog can't just peacefully live his life under a mountain. I just want to enjoy the peaceful darkness, maybe work on my painting, but nooooo. Sheesh."
Didn't the Valar get involved to end the War of Wrath? Makes sense that any of Morgoth's Maia followers who made it out of his defeat would hide away, they have no idea if any of the Valar or Maiar are staying in Middle-Earth or keeping a closer watch on things.
I think he has a video that talks about this already. I seem to recall watching one around the time I found this channel. I believe the crux of it was that the Balrog never seemed to have any interest in conquering things. If it did, it wouldn't have slept the Second Age away. It also would have had to contend with Sauron and other mortal heroes. Yes, the Balrog was powerful, but it wasn't invincible. Finally it might have STILL been afraid of the Valar finding it. I believe those were the three main reasons the video discussed.
My personal theory is because it was tired. A common theme with Tolkien's Legendarium is that things fade. The Elves grow weary, the Ents and Hurons literally go to sleep, etc. And this seems to be all part of Eru's plan. The magic of the Elder Days was always meant to fade away. If the Dwarves had not woken it up, it seems likely (at least, to me) that Durin's Bane would have slept down there until the final days of Arda, or possibly faded away before then.
He was hiding from Oromë and Tulkas.
Wasn't it simply waiting for Morgoth? I'm not sure it had any other purpose. Much like Sauron waiting for Morgoth the first time around. These guys are simply more loyal.
For all we enjoy Tolkien's thoroughly constructed languages and histories he also had a gift for bits of unexplained color. A "word of command." Sauron and Finrod in a battle of songs. Telling Saruman his staff is broken (poof!) Queen Beruthiel's cats. Enticing glimpses of a further unseen world.
So Durin's Bane vs Gandalf was a fairly even battle. But this is Gandalf in his veiled "old man" form. I wonder what would have been the results if Gandalf had not been limited in his form by the Valar.
That Balrog did just about everything he could to stay away from dwarves. No wonder he was angry when they came busting into his home.
The old MST3K cast is still making fun of movies, out of character on RiffTrax. On the RiffTrax for the Fellowship of the Ring, when it gets to the Balrog scene, one of them just says, "Alright here's this movie's guitar solo," and they don't crack a single joke for the rest of the scene. These are professional comedians, watching Ian McKellen shout that he is a, "weilder of the flame of Anor," with zero explanation of what that means, and they don't try and make into into a joke because it's just that awesome.
It doesn't get much more awesome than Ian McKellan going full-on Gandalf in a magic off against a fire demon. That scene has stood the test of time.
Y
Yeah, LOTR is AWESOME. Too bad Peter Jackson let the studios get their way for _The Hobbit._
Oh, another MST3K fan! Been watching it for almost 3 decades now!
Big fan from 🇯🇵🇯🇵.
@@GymnasticsCoach83I’ve been a major fan for three decades too. Honestly, until your comment, I had no idea MST3K was popular outside of the U.S.
It's the last of the Balrogs, It had been hiding in Moria for thousands of years until discovered. It did not want to be discovered, but was because of Saurons One ring carried by frodo, it was found by Gandlaf
There's an interesting element here that I've never quite considered before: until the Fellowship passes into Moria, it is not conclusively known what has happened there. When Eregion was destroyed, the Elves basically stopped traveling there and had no direct information about what had destroyed Khazad-Dum, only horrifying rumors that the Dwarves were reluctant to repeat. Gloin only mentioned "the nameless fear," when discussing it at Rivendell. In the discussions after the failure to cross the high pass, Gandalf seems to regard Moria as a relatively safe, if abandoned place, with few remaining orcs, and hopes to make contact with Balin (this was all changed for the movie).
In that very moment at the Bridge, the whole of Arda's telescoping history collapses down and a monster from the Eldar Days leaps forth. Then, and only then, Durin's Bane, the Dwarves' nameless fear of Moria, is concretely identified as a Balrog by Legolas and Gandalf. When they recount the tale later to Celeborn, he says, "Alas! We long have feared that under Caradhras a terror slept," later adding, "I did not know that your plight was so evil."
You are actually a quite good "voice actor" when reading the book. Never really paid attention to that aspect of your videos before.
Robert has an audiobook podcast (all platforms) called The Well Told Tale. He's excellent.
Thank you so much for this powerful description of the Balrog❤
I always thought it was a shame that they cut out what Legolas says in the book when he realises what it is - when a powerful Elven prince basically shits himself when he sees what's coming, it really lends weight to the sheer terror that the presence of a Balrog would inspire.
Can you imagine what everything looked like in Tolkiens minds eye? Especially Balrog.
What if barlog got the ring?
good coverage but for power levels, It took many balrogs to drive off ungoliant and for killing them, one was slain by Glorfindel, who would later hold the fords outside rivendel against the nine.
I believe Glorfindel died, or went to the undying lands, too and came back as Glorfindel 2, where we meet him in the FofR. I'm not expert, but it seems to me I've heard that.
@@danielreynolds6173 Yes, Glorfindel was indeed killed, and it's Glorfindel 2.0 we meet in LOTR. So he was an incredibly powerful elf, but like Gandalf, he met his match in a balrog.
Yes, but as Robert says earlier in the video, Tolkien's views on balrogs seemed to evolve between LOTR and the Silmarillion.
Yet another fantastic deep dive into LOTR. What treats you deliver!
Me tryna sleep at 2:00: But HOW powerful was Balrog?
Beautiful video
Those excerpts were excellent. An audiobook with you reading LOTR or LOTR-themed books would make daily mundane tasks less oppressive
Becoming Gandalf the White from Gandalf the Grey's perspective next please? Anyone else?
In Fellowship, you have to hand it to Weta Digital, Gandalf was facing a walking blast furnace, that first roar still gives me the piss shivers. And oddly, this vid was the suggestion at the end of a very cool video of a Korean steel mill.
I would love those kind of videos to Kingkiller chronicles on this channel, but i can see how this is almost impossible with so much missing in the story yet
The Balrog is my fav part of the entire story. Jackson absolutely nailed the interpretation of it as well, imo.
The Mines of Moria is one of my favourite parts of the book, and also the movie. The scene where Gandalf light up the huge underground hall gives me goosebumps every time!
@@ceejay0137 yup, even after all these years. The sense of wonder and mystery, combined with the sadness of what once was, is captured in the whole sequence. Soundtrack on point as well.
maia power doesnt stack; they were created with a set level of power from the beginning. gandalf only gets more power because it was his innate power but he had the restrictions the Valar placed upon him as the Grey Wizard removed. the wizards were to use minimal magic by design.
I don’t dislike the sequence at all. It’s very well done all around.
But! I wish that Jackson’s interpretation of the Balrog was a little more personal, for lack of a better term. In the movie, it kind of comes across as this big, fiery beast that just wants to burn everything. Which works to get the point across.
But I think it’s a lot more sinister when you realize that this is an ancient being of tremendous power that has complete control of its own thoughts and agency. It’s much more like Sauron, Saruman or Gandalf than it is anything else.
@@colejames423 so you mean like hinting that It can talk or something? Gothmog definitely had a personality in the Silmarillian.
I wonder if he wouldve sided with Sauron if he left the Misty Mountains. Them having the same "rank" makes me think that he would rather challenge him. As soon as the Balrog realizes Sauron is the mightiest being in Middle Earth, he would go crazy.
Why do you think that?
@@oguzhanenescetin5702 The Balrog, same as Sauron, probably saw the other creations in Middle Earth as wrong or inferior so i think he wouldve just caused havoc all over the place.
@@91djdj He didtn do that for a 6 thousand years
@@oguzhanenescetin5702 Ha was hiding because of the Valar. Knowing there isnt anybody who intervenes or protects the people surely would have some effect.
@@91djdj And how would he learn that?
Hey man your videos are really really good. You're a very good speaker. Well done
Thanks for your sacrifice Gandalf. That's all for this time. I'll see you again soon.
Is it really a sacrifice if you come back more powerful? What exactly did he sacrifice? 🤣 Also, neither of them died, both are "immortal spirits". Also, this is all just made up BS, sooo.
Ecthelion of the Fountain says "hold my ale."
The one thing I never understood about this Balrog is that if it was such a threat to Middle Earth, what was it still doing in Moria sulking around in the dark all these years after being awakened?
It knew RoP was coming...
I’m so glad I stumbled upon this channel
If you think about it, Gandalf actually did Sauron a big favor by fighting the Balrog. Without the One Ring, Sauron wouldn’t have been able to control Durin’s Bane and would have been a huge distraction. Similar to Ungoliant when she grew too large for Melkor to control.
That’s not evident in the story at all. The Balrog was chilling under the mountains for thousands of years. By all accounts, it pretty much wanted to be left alone.
Sauron was out and about warring and losing rings, then coming back and warring again. The Balrog was never a concern or a threat or a “huge distraction.” Sauron didn’t need to control it.
Man its chilling knowing that Durins Bane was a threat to the existence of the whole of Middle Earth if it wanted to do so
I like to picture the Balrog marching across the field toward Rohan. They see it coming for miles.
@@davidseligman6445 that would be quite the sight, especially at night!
I love the idea that Gandalf - Olorin in the Uttermost west - knew the spirit that would be named Durin's Bane when they both resided in the timeless halls and helped sing the universe into creation. Water-cooler chat in the timeless halls. So he would have known best how powerful his adversary was.
I think that Gandalf was afraid of the Balrog but steeled himself to fight until death. Ironically, that is Gandalf at his most human moment - he's an immortal being faced with the possibility of his own mortality. He had to find the courage and selfless sacrifice within him and did not hesitate to put himself between his friends and mortal danger.
Gandalf is a bad-ass!
'The dwarves delved too greedily, and too In Deep, Geek. You know what they awoke in the darkness, dork"- Saruman
The Balrog is SO powerful he can get through the DMV without waiting in line!!!!
so he knows how to make an appointment
@@villekuronen6242 that is more power than some can handle!
@@351cleavland true dat
Story twist: melkor is just mumbles from happy feet. He was trying to sing, but he couldn't help his discord. 😂😂
I always thought all depictions of the Balrog are disappointing and are one of the finest descriptions in the books, almost lovecraftian and sublime.
Gandalf is one of my favourite characters.
But I liked him better when all I knew about him was what I read in The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings.
He seemed a wise and highly educated human. He was part of an order (perhaps one of many) of wizards with Saruman as its head.
I always felt that learning that he is an immortal being, diminished him.
His order consisted of just five such beings, only three of which are ever mentioned in the main story. Rather than being part of a wider class of magicians.
Question: are there other ancient and known threats left by the dawn of the Fourth Age? We know of the Watcher in the Water, and vague comments like "there are older and fouler things than orcs in the deep places of the world."
But as for more quantifiable threats:
- Smaug was the last of the dragons, if I remember correctly
- Durin's Bane is the only Balrog I know of existing in the Third Age
- Saruman's power is broken and his body is killed
- Sauron is as close to destroyed as is possible when the Ring is destroyed.
- Shelob is still alive by the end of the book, as far as I know, but she's more a scary predator in the mountains of Mordor's border than an existential threat capable of toppling empires. She's nowhere near Ungoliant.
- the Blue Istari are barely mentioned in the lore, aside from having gone further east. It's possible they were turned by Sauron and his minions, but it's just as possible they were defeated and physically killed in much the same way as Saruman was, or Gandalf would have been without Illuvitar's intervention.
Anything else like that lurking somewhere? Plenty of possibilities out there if Tolkien had ever found the time to expand into the Fourth Age beyond what's in the Appendices, but I don't know of anything surviving in terms of concretely known threats.
I'd say Radagast. Maybe the ents.
Thanks for the video :) Always appreciated
The Balrog fell because three unknown heroes looking for Boromir showed up and beat the piss out of it before Gandalf told them to go. For those who don't get the joke, the game Middle Earth The Third Age was an RPG where you had a party of three with different characters and one of the bosses you fight is the Balrog, which if you where overleveled walking into it, you would absolutely demolish this thing and watch the cutscene from the movie of Gandalf fighting it.
Wonderful insight, Robert.
It’d be wild to have read the Sillmarillion first and then Fellowship, with no foreknowledge, just an understanding of how big of a deal this was.
Superb video and voice commentary.
The benefit of using the words 'dug greedily' is it hints at the dark influence of the Dwarven Rings, who are suppressed by the Dwarven nature. Dwarves will always dig yes but, the influence inspires them to delve recklessly until they find their ruin.
When I first read Lord of the Rings - I was 15 or 16 - I was so distraught when Gandalf fell into the chasm with the balrog that I put the book aside, and it was nearly 2 weeks before I returned to it.
I have stats and powers for the Balrog in my LOTR role playing game from 1986 that lays somewhere in my storage. Now I need to check it out.
Robert, the Dwarf Apologist. That made me chuckle.
Power is so relative. Saruman was killed by Wormtongue with a knife.
Saruman had no powers in the moment
That was after Sauron's staff was broken.
Saruman of Many Colors was. Not Saruman the White with all his Istari powers.
I'm surprised this video was only made today, I would have expected a Balrog Strength video to have already been made years ago.
Is this is a repost of an old video or something?
When I first read LOTR at the age of 12, I was intrigued by the vague description of the Balrog. What exactly did it look like? What does shadow and flame look like? Obviously, the ambiguous description was intended by Tolkien to make our imaginations do the work, something that he was good at.
One correction tho. if you use no-clip to travel through the blocks, you will see that the blocks are hollow.
So really, each block is paper thin, inside :)
It also shows how powerful Saruman was. Gandolf couldn’t challenge him and was locked up in orthanc. But he could the Balrog.
Read this passage in my teens of a late evening, and hurried off to the kitchen to unburden myself partly of the devastation I felt by sharing it with my rock-solid father: Daddy, Gandalf's dead, said I, to Mummy's puzzlement (they were sharing the task of cooking). I can't remember his reply but I felt sufficiently relieved to return to the Fellowship, wondering who else was to die and how..... I remember pulling the blanket over my head as I read by torchlight of the cock's crowing being aswered by horns echoing in the sides of Mindolluin "Rohan had come at last!" (I'm not near my set of LOTR, my memory has aged as badly as my body, so I can't vouch for exactness in my quotation, except for the last sentence, engraved in my memory too deeply to be erased by the vicissitudes of the many decades past)
This is one of the most compelling of your dives into the deep, Robert. Did I hear or was I imagining a certain degree of excitement in your voice when you began?
Thank you for all your videos, and the effort that has gone into making each one!
22 Sept. Looked up thr passage and here it is: "Horns, horns, horns, in dark Mindolluin's sides they dimly echoed. Great horns of the north wildly blowing. Rohan had come at last." I don't know what Tolkien thought of Wagner's Tristan and Isolde, but the horns during the King's Hunt are remotely - remotely - evocative of the Horns of Rohan.
Here is a thought only tolkien could create. The debate over whether Balrogs had wings is similar to the debate over whether Angels in the bible had wings. Both are assumed but never said.
Durin's Bane vs. Smaug. Go.
Smaug, size advantage, unless Durin's Bane notices the missing scale.
My money is on Durin's Bane, because I don't think flame attacks would be that effective against it, tho where they are fighting I think would make a difference too, if it was out in the open Smaug might be able to wear it down from range provided flame has any effect at all, but somewhere more confined? I think DB has it every time, once he gets his paws on Smaug it's game over
Durin’s Bane was killed by Gandalf 1-on-1, while Gandalf never even considered a direct confrontation with Smaug. Smaug’s enormous, intelligent, and way WAY stronger. Durin’s Bane’s getting goomba stomped and it’s not even close (unless someone tells the balrog about a particular missing scale).
@@Highlyskeptical Durins Bane is still more durable than Smaug despite him being smaller and stronger as well. Size really doesnt matter at this context
@@augustgremaud2738 Durins Bane is still stronger and more durable than the Smaug and the reason why Gandalf never confronted it was because he was not allowed to do so. Just because it is bigger doesnt mean he was more powerful lol
I've often wondered what the Balrog thought when it perceived Gandalf's Word of Power at the door. No small thing. It shattered the door and brought the roof down. Surely the Balrog knew what (if not who) Gandalf was when he took position on the bridge and declared "You shall not pass" - I always thought the movie missed a trick by not highlighting the doubt in the Balrog's thinking at that point, before it took it's first fateful step onto the bridge.
Let's not forget also that Gandalf had the ring of fire when he fought the balrog in Khazad Dum, and it surely helped him to sustain its fire; it was a terrible foe yes but i think Gandalf immidiately understood he rarely would have found a better setting for a fight like that.