Part of the problem is that saying it's a double sounds like an impressive escalation. Goku instead was saying something like, "Kaioken, which, as a reminder, is a two times multiplier! Just for any remote viewers that may be overhearing me!" Basically it's a case of Toriyama doing some awkward writing. He probably could have said something more like, "He's only seen this - a double!" On a related note, I hope they stick with x100 being a limit of some kind. If the number gets any bigger my eyes won't have room to roll back any further.
It's simple math. I don't understand why people have a hard time. The formula for kaio-ken is: base + base x kaio-ken(n) Using 10,000 for easy numbers... Kaio-ken is 10,000 + 10,000(1)= 20,000 Kaio-ken x2 is 10,000 + 10,000(2)= 30,000 Kaio-ken x3 is 10,000 + 10,000(3)= 40,000 and so forth. If kaio-ken x2 doubled his power, then standard kaio-ken would be a 1x multiplier, which, anything x1 is itself (10,000x1=10,000) so standard kaio-ken would confer no increase in strength. But as we see from the manga, if standard kaio-ken doubles his power, then the above formula i wrong would be correct 👍
@@renatoramos8834 It's just in the 4 dbz movie, so it's non canon or non canon to the main continuity. In the main canon he can still only use kaioken x20 at max
I always just assumed that Toriyama didn't think about it having multipliers beyond the regular x2 at first. That would make sense as to why he ends up having Goku say "Kaio-ken times 2!" at certain points to introduce the idea that Goku can use it with different multipliers.
Hard to tell but he introduced the idea the chapter after kaioken by having kaio do the warning. So the room for error here is in-between a single chapter.
I've always thought it was 1.5. At Goku's power level of 8000 a base kaioken would be 12000, absolutely devastating for Nappa but nowhere close to Vegeta. The reason I felt this is when King Kai is internally monologuing he says something to the effect of "I told him not to go any higher than a double" which seems to imply that a double is somewhat stronger than base kaioken otherwise why would it be differentiated
It's simple math. I don't understand why people have a hard time. The formula for kaio-ken is: base + base x kaio-ken(n) Using 10,000 for easy numbers... Kaio-ken is 10,000 + 10,000(1)= 20,000 Kaio-ken x2 is 10,000 + 10,000(2)= 30,000 Kaio-ken x3 is 10,000 + 10,000(3)= 40,000 and so forth. If kaio-ken x2 doubled his power, then standard kaio-ken would be a 1x multiplier, which, anything x1 is itself (10,000x1=10,000) so standard kaio-ken would confer no increase in strength. But as we see from the manga, if standard kaio-ken doubles his power, then the above formula i wrong would be correct 👍
@@FirstnameLastname-yc2mt No the formula for kaioken is: Kaioken x n = multiplying your base powerlevel by whatever n is this is also confirmed in the daizenshuu. Its why when goku uses kaioken x 20 his battle power becomes 60million against frieza when it is just 3 million in base
@@FirstnameLastname-yc2mt That formula totally works. Goku's base power during the fight against Vegeta and Nappa was over 8000, even though the 'over' bit is too unimportant, so let's call it 8000. In the manga, his Kaioken x2 raises his power up to 24000. Using the formula for the Kaioken shown in that scene gave the same number.
Thanks for this explanation! Honestly this really clears it up and puts it into perspective quite nicely. There really is no reason to believe the base Kaioken isn't 2x given all the contextual evidence
I've always wondered how Goku would've faired against Kid buu if he instead of going SSJ 3 (8X SSJ) against him transformed into a SSJ (which by the cell saga he'd already fully mastered) and used Kaioken X20 like he did against Frieza in the Namek Arc. Wouldn't that make him over twice as powerful as he was as a SSJ 3? Maybe even as powerful as SSJ 3 Gotenks or Ultimate Gohan?
True, but the one time he DID use the Kaioken in SSJ Pre-super (which was Filler anyway), he SCREAMED in pain, and was in the Otherworld. IDK if he could've handled it in a living body.
Yeah fair enough. If it's movie Goku who used Kaioken x100 against Lord slug, he'd probably be able to use a Kaioken x20 in SSJ without much trouble by the Buu Saga. But if it's regular series Goku, maybe it'd be too much for his body to handle. But what do you think his limit for Kaioken would be in SSJ considering the fact he still managed a whole X10 in SSJ Blue form?
Didn't he say that he could only mix kaioken with blue safely due to the properties of the form of having precise ki control and the like? He seemed to imply that only blue enabled him to finally use Kaio Ken while transformed so I doubt things changed too much for base ssj
Anywhere from 101% to 199% based on the user's choice. It only hits 200%, double the power, at "Kaioken x2". Kaioken itself, at base, doesn't double your power,.
Watched half the video so far, one other consideration to note (and how I always understood it) King Kai talked about never going above two-fold, but I always interpreted that he could control how hard he did it a little more than that. 1.1x, 1.3x , 1.6x, 2.2x It’s an energy technique, not special equipment, he certainly reaches an upper limit but perhaps there isn’t a lower limit. A real life MMA fighter would be enthralled with being able to up their battle power by 25 percent, even for short bursts, and that would put less strain on the body than times two which was goku’s known “full power” at this time
Can you do a video on how potential unleashed works? Both in the fact that at first it seems like a permanent thing but then it acts more as a transformation, and how much power it has, I saw many people say that it is as strong as the user's current strongest form without the drawbacks of it but idk they never mentioned a source for it nor does it make much sense since ssj2 Gohan would stand no chance against Super Buu I think
He stopped using it after his fight with Frieza, because going super Saiyan was a better multiplier with less strain on the body. He only started using it again in super because the multiplier at that point would still be useful and his body can handle a lot more stress.
Fun Fact, that is an anime-only thing that Toei added. The manga (that trailed behind the anime and had more supervision from Toriyama) never actually gives Goku Blue-Kaio-Ken. Since Toei could kind of write what they wanted, someone probably thought the super kaio-ken from the otherworld tourney was neat and decided to give it to Goku in Super. After the ToP in the manga, Goku toys with the idea of something similar, but he ends up mastering UI as a transformation and so it became irrelevant. Also Also, blue is far less used in the manga as it was a huge energy user like SSJ3 was. They tended to rely on God for most of their fighting and using Blue for big attacks. Manga is definitely worth a read for story purposes. I always tell people that anime is for eye candy and the manga was for story (even it wasn't perfect) when it comes to super. Another small change is Gohan is far more relevant in the manga than anime, which is nice even as a non-Gohan fanboy. Anyways, have a good one.
I think the biggest confusing factor is why would Goku use standard Kaio-Ken twice in a row (2nd time saying X2) if it only double his strength before moving onto X3? It most likely is actually a X2 multiplier from the get go but the misstep in writing is how the confusion came about. Toriyama should have had Goku internal monologuing saying how he couldn't keep up with the Kaio-Ken doubling his strength but that he should try again before committing to a X3 due to the higher risk factor
Great video and even if you never understood the multiplier for a number the manga and anime clearly state Vegeta's powerlevel in the Sayian Saga as 18,000. So looking at that shows why Goku needed to go to a times 3 to even stand a chance against Vegeta once powered up. The thing that was always odd was once Goku went times 3 then times 4 he wasn't able to put Vegeta away. The only thing I could come up with was when the fighters use a focused energy attack they can push themselves higher than normal much like Piccolo did against Raditiz pushing his power well above 1,000 but not being able to fight at that power normally. But even still a kaioken times 4 should out right killed Vegeta other then the power being so out of control for Goku he can unleash it he just can take advantage of it like a ball player having a 90 plus mile per hr fast ball but with no control that ball won't go to the strike zone.
I always thought this was pretty clear, but I guess not! You actually do bring something up though that would make a good video (if you haven't already covered it): What's up with only specific characters being able to raise their ki through beams/blasts? Like, if Goku and Piccolo can raise their power levels through the Kamehameha and Special Beam Cannon, but Raditz can't, what does that imply for Raditz's ki blasts? I've always personally chalked this up to just Toriyama still figuring out how he wanted power levels to work, because it really doesn't seem to mean anything or make much sense?
It’s pretty straightforward from what I can tell. I could be wrong but it’s likely gokus base after training with king Kai without Kao ken is between 4-5 thousand putting him dead even with nappa. At minimum base level kao ken is a 2x multiplyier putting him at 8 or 9 ( anime). However it’s not stable so kao ken x2 is an example of deminishing returns likely only getting him to 10-12. It’s not unitl things get desperate where 3 and 4 closes the gap but our boy definitely feels it from that point 😂
I've always thought of the kioken as a spectrum. King kai's "don't go above times two" statement suggests that going below times two is possible but times two is the safe limit. A x1.5 would absolutely be possible, but against Vegeta, he needed at least x2 and against anyone else, he didn't need it at all (save Nappa, and Ginyu).
I read the Piccolo quote to Dr Gero where he says all the Z Fighters have learned to "Amplify their base energy in short intense bursts" as saying they all learned the Kioken. Since even in the Frieza saga Goku was using it without turning red. Which makes me a little upset they brought the Kioken back in super just for Goku.
The red aura appeared as soon as they dramatically revealed he'd been using it the whole time, if I recall. Short-term amps have always existed regardless of kaioken, that's what they're doing every time they "power up," proceed to spark, and go to attack.
@@Frogman1212 This quote from piccolo makes it seem like a new thing though. Go back and watch piccolo vs Gero he says "let me tell you a secret we all learned..." Also this comes directly after piccolo trained with Goku between Saga's. In the Saiyan Saga Kuririn asked Goku if he could learn Kioken and Goku tells him he might be able to. Also another point against "powering up" being a short term burst is all the villains surprised by transformationless power ups. People like Kwi Dedoria the Ginyu force and Zarbon don't power up. KaioKen really feels like it's just a technique to do exactly what piccolo said. Amplify base energy for short intense bursts. It's really nothing beyond that. I don't see why everyone wouldn't try to learn KaioKen. They pretty much all always steal each other's techniques. And it's obviously something any race can do.
It's simple math. I don't understand why people have a hard time. The formula for kaio-ken is: base + base x kaio-ken(n) Using 10,000 for easy numbers... Kaio-ken is 10,000 + 10,000(1)= 20,000 Kaio-ken x2 is 10,000 + 10,000(2)= 30,000 Kaio-ken x3 is 10,000 + 10,000(3)= 40,000 and so forth. If kaio-ken x2 doubled his power, then standard kaio-ken would be a 1x multiplier, which, anything x1 is itself (10,000x1=10,000) so standard kaio-ken would confer no increase in strength. But as we see from the manga, if standard kaio-ken doubles his power, then the above formula i wrong would be correct 👍
@@FirstnameLastname-yc2mtthis formula is wrong. As was already seen from the manga, Goku using the Kaioken x2 was not enough to overpower Vegeta. He had to use x3 to actually hurt him. Then during the beam struggle, the Kaioken x3 Kamehameha was locked with the Galick Gun. He had to use x4 to overcome it. We know for a fact that Vegeta’s power level was 18000 and Goku’s was around 8000. So it makes sense that with the x2 (16000) Goku can’t hurt Vegeta, but he can at x3 (24000) and it would take x4 to overcome an energy dense concentrated beam like the Galick Gun. You can also refer to the manga here Bulma reads Goku’s power level during the Kaioken x3 and literally says it’s around 23,000 before the scouter explodes. If we use your formula, then Vegeta would have easily been defeated by the Kaioken x2 and would never be able to match the x3 Kamehameha let alone survive the x4 one. The lowest form of Kaioken doubles base, then triples, and so forth.
@@paliboy93 there's so much there to unpack... First, "Bulma reads Goku's power level during the Kaioken x3 and literally says it's around 23,000 before the scooter explodes." Right, so she never records how high hos power level reached because the scooter exploded. That doesn't mean that was his highest power level at that point, just the last point she recorded it before the scooter exploded. "If we use your formula, then Vegeta would have easily been defeated by the Kaioken x2..." Have you never seen DBZ? Power levels are not static. Fighters can raise their power levels by charging their ki, hence their levels raising when using an energy beam. Your own reasoning defies itself as you assume Vegeta can't raise his base power level above 18,000. Goku raised his base power level against Raditz just by taking off his weighted clothes. "The lowest form of Kaioken doubles base, then triples, and so forth." This quote, your concluding statement was the face palm of your entire post. You literally are agreeing that my formula is correct. Kaio-ken standard: base(8,000) + base(8,000) x kaio-ken(1) = 16,000 which is double Kaio-ken x2: 8,000 + 8,000 x 2 = 24,000 which is triple. You literally agreed with my formula and didn't even realize it, smh.....
@@FirstnameLastname-yc2mt You literally say that Goku’s PL in x2 is 30,000. If that were the case, Bulma’s scouter would have exploded when he did the Kaioken x2. Instead it explodes when he does x3. Vegeta’s max PL on Earth was stated to be 18,000. Anything you say against this is headcannon and wrong. I won’t hear anything you say that refutes this because you are wrong. And no I don’t agree with your formula. Goku calls it the Kaioken x2 and gets pushed back by Vegeta. Meaning his PL was 16,000. Not the 30,000 your idiotic formula postulates. Goku calls it Kaioken x3 and his PL is 24,000. Your idiotic formula states that the Kaioken x2 triples base and x3 quadruples base. That’s false. You are one factor too far ahead. There is no such thing as Kaioken x1. The lowest form of Kaioken is x2. Watch the video you’re commenting on.
@@paliboy93 ..... you have comprehension problems. A formula is a basis by which to solve an equation by using variables. I never said Goku's power level was 30,000. I used 10,000 as an EXAMPLE. That's number 1. Number 2, Vegeta's power level was not a max of 18,000 because if that were the case, Goku would've been strong enough at
I thought this was rudimentary, myself... Kaioken = double one's base power. So, therefore x2 (and so on) would only stack from there. x2 being is triple one's base power. Etc.
@@justinarzola4584 I'm not saying it suppresses his ki. I'm saying that Goku can choose the increase he gets. So 1.2 or 1.5 it all depends on whatever he wants
@@VXception imagine if x20 is just actually him using it correctly and it's the proper version of it but king kai not knowing how a non deity would handle the technique has been assuming the weak base version was him doing it right
Yeah, I was confused about that because I thought kaio-ken x3 meant he was 3x as strong, which would mean 1x was 1x as strong, which meant it did nothing. So x3 actually meant he was at 4x his power, so he was at 32,000, and x4 brought him up to 40,000. So when he went x20 against Frieza, that brought him up to 21x.
@@Ramble1234 youre the one whos wrong. kaioken ads the users base power to itself. basic kaioken doubles the users base power. x2 tripples. x3 quadripples and so on. kaioken has always been base power + (base power x kaioken multiplier)
@@Ramble1234 because base x 3 + base = base x 4. ive already explained it in the easiest way possible in my last post but it seems like youre struggling with basic 3rd grade math.
@@uteriel282 Quit being a dink. That makes absolutely no sense LOL. It's multipled on top of base power. Goku's powerlevel was 8000. If he did Kaioken 3x, it would bring it up to 24,000, which would be enough to damage Vegeta and cause him pain. Why else would he need to use it if he could've just used 2x to begin with? The same with 4x; you're argument is illogical. Just admit you're wrong. Goku used Kaioken before and it didn't do shit against Vegeta. According to you, wouldn't it be more than enough to damage him? Also, Toriyama would never make things that complex for the readers to understand. It's just basic multiplication.
Every official video game with multiple levels of Kaioken has had x1 & x2 as separate power ups. That can't be a mistake, they must keep notes on attack name techniques to maintain continuity.
That’s not true. Budokai 1 has x2, x5, and x10 only. Budokai 2 has x20 only. And Budokai 3 has a generic Kaioken. The Tenkaichi games don’t explicitly state any multiplier. The only game I’m aware of that does what you’re talking about is Raging Blast. A far cry from “every official game.”
@@paliboy93 Only retro RPG's use real power levels and multipliers. Dragon Ball Z Super Saiya Densetsu 1992 Dragon Ball Z Goku Hishouden 1994 Dragon Ball Z Gokuu Gekitouden 1995 Dragon Ball Z Super Gokuden Kakusei-Hen 1995
I'm in the camp of the base Kaio-Ken being x1.5. if not, it would mean that Kaio-Ken x2 would actually be a 4x multiplier, 3 a 6x multiplier, 10 a 20x multiplier, and 20 a 40x multiplier. That's a bit much. Plus, in the fight against Goku, Vegeta was at 18,000. Even with the Kaio-Ken and KKx2, Goku couldn't keep up. If the base is a 1.5x multiplier, that would've made his power level at KKx1 12,000, and KKx2 16,000. Keeping Vegeta more powerful than Goku. So the base KK is a 1.5 multiplier and every other one just multiplys Goku's power by whatever number he calls out. That's my head canon anyways.
Inconsistencies from the manga/anime but overall you’re right. Doesn’t make sense for “regular kaioken” being 1.5x and double 2x. What makes sense for me would be Kaioken = original power level x 2 Double kaioken = original power level x 3 Triple kaioken = original power level x 4 Like kaioken doubles the user power, if you double the kaioken you’ll get the double of just the power up + the original power, not the double for the entire power , and keeps growing like that. But then that doesn’t would make sense to match goku power levels because kaioken two times would be goku with 24.000
My head cannon is that the initial kioken just powers u up like gokus power was 8000 vs vegeta so anything between 8001 and 15999was they power that he could get and then 16000 was times two and so on
the fact that king kai said that "you can't go beyond x2" makes me think that if goku wants to he can below x2, like a 10% boost or something, he just chooses to go x2 by default
It's simple math. I don't understand why people have a hard time. The formula for kaio-ken is: base + base x kaio-ken(n) Using 10,000 for easy numbers... Kaio-ken is 10,000 + 10,000(1)= 20,000 Kaio-ken x2 is 10,000 + 10,000(2)= 30,000 Kaio-ken x3 is 10,000 + 10,000(3)= 40,000 and so forth. If kaio-ken x2 doubled his power, then standard kaio-ken would be a 1x multiplier, which, anything x1 is itself (10,000x1=10,000) so standard kaio-ken would confer no increase in strength. But as we see from the manga, if standard kaio-ken doubles his power, then the above formula i wrote would be correct 👍
My headcannon was that base kaioken would bring out the absolute power of Goku. As if he focused his kamehameha into hand to hand combat. Example when Goku used the kamehameha against Raditz but now he can use it in a fight head on.
Do you think kaioken could be stacked on top of Gohan's Mystic form, since Ultimate just seems like a second base form? It wouldn't really be helpful for Gohan now that he has Beast, but imagine if the humans got ultimate and kaioken and combined them, and how powerful they would be.
More people should've learned that technique like Yamcha, Tien and probably Piccolo. It's strange that King Kai held that back and also the Genki Dama. Yeah, it'd be useable with ultimate because it's similar to SSG and doesn't have the strain of SSJ
@@Valientlink I mean even Krillin could've learned it when Frieza killed him, as long as he got to King Kai's planet fast enough for him to learn the basics. Gohan's base was lower than Goku's in the Buu saga, but with Ultimate he was stonger than SSJ3 Goku. That means that the multiplier for ultimate is probably around 600. So if you just half that and give it to the humans, with kaioken times 5 they would have a 1500x multiplier. Imagine if we got to see Jiren getting ganged on by the humans and Piccolo.
I always thought it added your power level for each application. For example Base Goku in Saiyan Saga is 8000, so Base Kaioken makes him 16000, (8000+8000). Kaioken x2 would be 24,000 which I feel is evident since Goku needed to be at Kaioken x2 to keep up and overpower Base Saiyan Saga Vegeta.
He never overpowered Vegeta with 2x. He just barely dodged his attack. He needed to go 3x to when stand a chance against Vegeta. Why do you think he did it in the first place, let alone 4x?
Thanks for the video man the Kaioken is one of my favorite techniques of the series and i really loved it when it made a comeback in Super! 🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥 And happy 4th of july! 💙🤍❤️
Mike, would you consider doing a video of who is Goku's best teacher? Between master roshi, kami, king Kai, etc? If I missed a video like this I apologize.
I did a video with Geekdom101 on his channel about this in a multi-part collab we did with Goku's Greatest Enemy on my channel. You can find the Greatest Master video here: ua-cam.com/video/axlrEn4DSDI/v-deo.html
Its actually pretty simple now that you've brought it up. Ive just been trusting the video games that kaioken and kaioken x2 are different things. I imagine thats where most of the confusion has come from
It's simple math. I don't understand why people have a hard time. The formula for kaio-ken is: base + base x kaio-ken(n) Using 10,000 for easy numbers... Kaio-ken is 10,000 + 10,000(1)= 20,000 Kaio-ken x2 is 10,000 + 10,000(2)= 30,000 Kaio-ken x3 is 10,000 + 10,000(3)= 40,000 and so forth. If kaio-ken x2 doubled his power, then standard kaio-ken would be a 1x multiplier, which, anything x1 is itself (10,000x1=10,000) so standard kaio-ken would confer no increase in strength. But as we see from the manga, if standard kaio-ken doubles his power, then the above formula i wrong would be correct 👍
@FirstnameLastname-yc2mt Don't know why you bothered typing that completely incorrect formula. Plain as day that x2 is the lowest the kaioken goes, Goku just said kaioken times two that one time as a set up for when he was about to say times three
Vegeta clearly says Goku's PL is "higher than 8,000" not 8,000 so it's conceivable that his starting battle power is 8,500 8,500 x 1.5 = 12,750 8,500 x 2 = 17,000 8,500 x 3 = 25,500 Kaioken x 2 can't possibly be higher than a double multiplier as that would put him ABOVE Vegeta
I can really get why it was phased out in favor of Super Saiyan- not only is doing the drawing of it using a lot of ink, but it gets hard to keep track of multipliers and keeping the dramatic tension if they used it over and over. SSJ is just easier to draw an indication of power without over-complicating things.
One way to look at it is that Goku doesnt have the experience of Kaioken , he just learned it. Kaioken isnt double since 8000x2 would be 16.0000 nevermind x3 or x4 , meaning its much lower then that and once Goku goes beyond regular Kaioken the multipliers arent equal anymore becaue his body cant handle so the multipliers are less the more he goes upward. Unlike his Frieza saga version which has more experience , if that Goku were to do a x3 times with the same power as his Saiyan saga self , he would obliterate Vegeta because his Kaioken is better This is even mentioned when Cell did a Kamehameha against Piccolo ,at which Piccolo says "from Goku back then" meaning his Kamehameha isnt as strong as it could be for his powerlevel. Its not just powerlevels going up but also the experience they have with the techniques , you can also count it for Tien's Shin Kikoho , if that Tien with the same power as his former self but with the experience he had ,he would erase Nappa.
I would’ve guessed base Kaioken doesn’t really increase your power, instead it just maximizes your senses. Kind of like Ultra Instinct but less potent and efficient
To understand Kaioken you must understand who King Kai is. King Kai in the Manga was a being so feared that he rivaled King Yama. You know the big red Demon guy that becomes stronger each time someone dies. Even Xeno couldn't erase him cause without him everyone would become immortal. Anyway the Kaioken bolsters all physical parameters. This means senses, physical strength, speed, power. To use this let's you lifting weights you max is 215lbs. Use Kaioken x2 you lifting 430. Times 3 you lifting 645lbs. But you also hear 3 times better, see 3 times further. Your heart pumps 3 times faster. Your metabolism. It's an whole body multipler. Super saiyan is just upto keyword upto 50x power level. Kaioken is superior to Super Saiyan, but it cost more often.
also I kinda think that the "mystic" form may be more like a permanent kaioken at least as permanent as a transformation. seeing as to how it's a kai ability and more advanced than king kais
I think it‘s clearly a writing error, they called the basic kaioken „times 2“ and kept referring to it wrongly all the time after that. Also, we should maybe stay with the mange, since the multipliers and powerlevels outside of that (in additional material) might state the specific time it occurred, that specific instant, which becomes clear when you try to detect the powerlevel of a tired-out SSJ… maybe it was 50 in Goku‘s fight on Namek, but doesn‘t mean it‘s fix. Same with Freezer‘s 120 million.
Kaioken is variable, when he's anouncing kaioken X2, it just means that he's increased the multiplier to his chi output to 2. When it's at X10, he's burning through his chi 10X faster than what his body would normally permit.
@@JoJoZaka not really, there is no base, it's variable, when you start you might start at kaioken 1.1 meaning 10% boost. It's a variable increase, the fighter can push it as hard as his body can take.
What is the issue it doubles your strength, speed etc. it always doubles . So power level 100 kaioken is 200, x2 is 400, x3 is 800 etc. Kaioken is x2 so Kaioken x10 is power level times 20 (doubles).
In my head I was thinking more like this Kaioken: 2x Kaioken 2: 2x2 Kaioken 3 : 2x3 Ect ect… So basically I was thinking it’s a kaioken literally stacked upon a kaioken basically so it’s kaioken on top of another So a 2times power boost stacked on top of a 2 time power boost
I questioned this for years. I always felt the base was a 50% increase then x2 double and so on with each multiplier being correct which would explain why he used base and x2 against Vegeta and still couldn't stand up to him until he went x3. I feel Goku just started using x2 all the time as his personal base since by the time of Namek he was able to handle it so well that he could use x2 with no side effects.
Have you done the same for the great oozaru form? If not can you? I have always wondered how vegeta would have faired on Namek agents the ginyu’s in that form
I'd like to say that base kaio ken is anywhere from 1.25 to 1.75 of the base power level. Probably closer to 1.75. When he uses it against powered up Nappa, who's level goes from 4k to about 7k or so, Goku was able to injure Nappa but not really do much to Vegeta. So when Goku fights Vegeta for the first time and he does base kaio ken, he's likely getting his fighting power from 8500 or so to right around 15k. Enough to kind of hang with Vegeta (who powered up from 10-12k to 16k) but not enough to hang for long. But since the chi from kaio ken burns up, it gets right back down to 8500 or so and Vegeta was still stronger than Goku. But a kaio x 3 would bump it up to about 25k which was enough to do something to Vegeta...for a short time, anyway. He says this explicitly in both the manga and anime after the assault, saying "He won't quit, that's alright, I won't either...but my body might!" He ALSO says this to Captain Ginyu when he says "this is nothing compared to when I use my power in bursts!" after getting to the 180k. Mike is wrong at the 7:00 mark. The giarikku ho bumped Vegeta's power to 18k which would eventually drop to 16k. THAT was what Dodoria meant when he said "Vegeta could barely get up to 18k" when describing his power. It's why Goku needed to go kaio x4. Cuz the kaio x3 was getting him to lose ground since kaio ken provides an energy boost at the expense of energy in the future. He got to 24k or so but it was dropping rapidly from that point. That's why the kaio x4 hurt Goku more than Vegeta. Sure his level got up to 30k but it was only for a few seconds before going all the way down to 8500 (at most). But those few seconds were enough to get Vegeta to lose ground on the beam struggle. Its why he says "I'll need to gamble on it!" before doing it. Goku was also depleting that kind of energy at a slightly faster rate which was why Goku was really hurt afterwards and why Vegeta was only slightly affected.
Weird question but i just thought of it why does scouters blow up so easily at these power levels (sayian saga level). The only reason i ask is because we know later on they have better scouters that can withstand namek goku levels. Is there a in story reason like Frieza didnt gave the sayian good equipment on purpose or like they only get the better scouters if the planets is deemed a threat. Like earth was considered weak so the sayians only brought the cheap scouters.
Regular Kaioken is just 1.5x. 8.000 × 1.5 = 12.000. Then Goku used Kaioken times two that doubled his base form from 8.000 to 16.000 but still wasn't enough to match Vegeta (Goku's words) because Vegeta had a power level of 18.000. Then Goku used Kaioken times three and his base went from 8.000 to 24.000 and finally overpowered Vegeta. If regular Kaioken doubled his base power the Kaioken times two would have been enough to overpower Vegeta but Kaioken times two wasn't enough as Goku himself said so it doesn't make any sense to assume the regular Kaioken is a x2.
It's a 1.5x multiplier; if it truly was a x2 then what is Kaioken x2? It can't be a 2.5-multiplier because that would have put Goku ABOVE Vegeta but as we all saw, x2 wasn't a match for him either.
I always assumed it was just a way to get to 100 percent power instantly. Powering up early on took so much time. Considering he uses a 20 times vs frieza and super Saiyan is supposed to be 50 times it has to be just a way to get to 100 percent quickly. Its not a actual multiplier
New video topic. Could vegeta have won on earth without turning into an ape? Goku was pretty worn out from the kaio ken x4 and likely couldn’t do it again whereas we saw vegeta has plenty of stamina left, even being able to fight after getting hit with a weakened spirit bomb. Goku would pretty much have had only the spirit bomb left to try. Also without transforming, gohan and krillin also probably wouldn’t have come back until much later if at all. Was vegetas attempt to transform actually what cost him the fight? Had he come back and evaluated gokus current state first could he have won?
Yes. Vegeta would have decisively won if he didn't turn into the Oozaru. And yeah, transforming cost him the fight. It took a VERY long time for Goku to recover after the kaio x4. In the manga, Vegeta spends about 20 or so minutes looking for the moon so he could transform. After the beam struggle Vegeta's power level was right around 14k or so. Goku was probably at 5k or so. So if they were to keep going without Vegeta transforming, Vegeta would have beaten Goku just by persevering. Vegeta wouldn't have allowed Goku to charge up the Genki Dama, the fight would have certainly dragged on, and Vegeta would have won. I'm sure this is why Vegeta is way more of a tactician on Namek, because he probably thought the same kind of thing you are.
Kaio Ken and Kaio Ken "x2" are the same thing. They literally tell you that Kaio Ken is a 2x boost. The next level from Kaio Ken is x3. King Kai told Goku to never go further than the basic double multiplier. The series says Kaio Ken is a 2x multiplier on several occasions and the next step is Kaio Ken x3. Goku saying "Kaio Ken times two" that one time with Vegeta is just to immediately set up the idea of "times three" for when he yells that moments later.
It's simple math. I don't understand why people have a hard time. The formula for kaio-ken is: base + base x kaio-ken(n) Using 10,000 for easy numbers... Kaio-ken is 10,000 + 10,000(1)= 20,000 Kaio-ken x2 is 10,000 + 10,000(2)= 30,000 Kaio-ken x3 is 10,000 + 10,000(3)= 40,000 and so forth. If kaio-ken x2 doubled his power, then standard kaio-ken would be a 1x multiplier, which, anything x1 is itself (10,000x1=10,000) so standard kaio-ken would confer no increase in strength. But as we see from the manga, if standard kaio-ken doubles his power, then the above formula i wrote would be correct 👍 What you're getting wrong is king Kai said don't go past kkx2, he never said it was twice his power. Kaio-ken is twice his power because it's his base + basex 1, which is double. That's like saying ssj1 and ssj2 are the same.
Yk it really makes no sense that Goku who was at 900k with kkx10 before fighting Ginyu and going into that rejuvenation, went from that to 3 million w/o kk, but Vegeta went from being slightly weaker than first from Frieza to not even 1% of Frieza's power after that zenkai
Part of the problem is that saying it's a double sounds like an impressive escalation. Goku instead was saying something like, "Kaioken, which, as a reminder, is a two times multiplier! Just for any remote viewers that may be overhearing me!" Basically it's a case of Toriyama doing some awkward writing. He probably could have said something more like, "He's only seen this - a double!" On a related note, I hope they stick with x100 being a limit of some kind. If the number gets any bigger my eyes won't have room to roll back any further.
That decision definitely worked out well for the anime, though. Screaming the number of times does make it cooler. SANBAI KAIOUKEN!
It's simple math. I don't understand why people have a hard time.
The formula for kaio-ken is: base + base x kaio-ken(n)
Using 10,000 for easy numbers...
Kaio-ken is 10,000 + 10,000(1)= 20,000
Kaio-ken x2 is 10,000 + 10,000(2)= 30,000
Kaio-ken x3 is 10,000 + 10,000(3)= 40,000 and so forth.
If kaio-ken x2 doubled his power, then standard kaio-ken would be a 1x multiplier, which, anything x1 is itself (10,000x1=10,000) so standard kaio-ken would confer no increase in strength.
But as we see from the manga, if standard kaio-ken doubles his power, then the above formula i wrong would be correct 👍
He uses 100x now? I stopped watching this crap.
@@renatoramos8834 It's just in the 4 dbz movie, so it's non canon or non canon to the main continuity.
In the main canon he can still only use kaioken x20 at max
@@obliviongigan6360 When I read it, I thought it was some super BS, which is telling of how low the writting got.
I always just assumed that Toriyama didn't think about it having multipliers beyond the regular x2 at first. That would make sense as to why he ends up having Goku say "Kaio-ken times 2!" at certain points to introduce the idea that Goku can use it with different multipliers.
Hard to tell but he introduced the idea the chapter after kaioken by having kaio do the warning.
So the room for error here is in-between a single chapter.
@@DSan-kl2ycsometimes toriyama came with the idea writing the chapter… lots of his ideas he gets writing the chapter
I've always thought it was 1.5. At Goku's power level of 8000 a base kaioken would be 12000, absolutely devastating for Nappa but nowhere close to Vegeta. The reason I felt this is when King Kai is internally monologuing he says something to the effect of "I told him not to go any higher than a double" which seems to imply that a double is somewhat stronger than base kaioken otherwise why would it be differentiated
Good reasoning
It's simple math. I don't understand why people have a hard time.
The formula for kaio-ken is: base + base x kaio-ken(n)
Using 10,000 for easy numbers...
Kaio-ken is 10,000 + 10,000(1)= 20,000
Kaio-ken x2 is 10,000 + 10,000(2)= 30,000
Kaio-ken x3 is 10,000 + 10,000(3)= 40,000 and so forth.
If kaio-ken x2 doubled his power, then standard kaio-ken would be a 1x multiplier, which, anything x1 is itself (10,000x1=10,000) so standard kaio-ken would confer no increase in strength.
But as we see from the manga, if standard kaio-ken doubles his power, then the above formula i wrong would be correct 👍
@@FirstnameLastname-yc2mt No the formula for kaioken is:
Kaioken x n = multiplying your base powerlevel by whatever n is this is also confirmed in the daizenshuu. Its why when goku uses kaioken x 20 his battle power becomes 60million against frieza when it is just 3 million in base
@@keanusawyer642 I believe that's just in error. If that were the case, standard kaio-ken, (i.e kaio-ken x 1) wouldn't give any kind of power boost..
@@FirstnameLastname-yc2mt That formula totally works. Goku's base power during the fight against Vegeta and Nappa was over 8000, even though the 'over' bit is too unimportant, so let's call it 8000. In the manga, his Kaioken x2 raises his power up to 24000. Using the formula for the Kaioken shown in that scene gave the same number.
Thanks for this explanation! Honestly this really clears it up and puts it into perspective quite nicely. There really is no reason to believe the base Kaioken isn't 2x given all the contextual evidence
I've always wondered how Goku would've faired against Kid buu if he instead of going SSJ 3 (8X SSJ) against him transformed into a SSJ (which by the cell saga he'd already fully mastered) and used Kaioken X20 like he did against Frieza in the Namek Arc. Wouldn't that make him over twice as powerful as he was as a SSJ 3? Maybe even as powerful as SSJ 3 Gotenks or Ultimate Gohan?
True, but the one time he DID use the Kaioken in SSJ Pre-super (which was Filler anyway), he SCREAMED in pain, and was in the Otherworld. IDK if he could've handled it in a living body.
That would have been too much on Goku even with his dead body.
Yeah fair enough. If it's movie Goku who used Kaioken x100 against Lord slug, he'd probably be able to use a Kaioken x20 in SSJ without much trouble by the Buu Saga.
But if it's regular series Goku, maybe it'd be too much for his body to handle. But what do you think his limit for Kaioken would be in SSJ considering the fact he still managed a whole X10 in SSJ Blue form?
@@banshotenin1178 That's Super Goku, so that's way different. By Super, he could probably handle Kaioken X20 in SSJ
Didn't he say that he could only mix kaioken with blue safely due to the properties of the form of having precise ki control and the like? He seemed to imply that only blue enabled him to finally use Kaio Ken while transformed so I doubt things changed too much for base ssj
I love the creative ideas for all your videos. I’ve never heard people questioning the franchise in this detail.
Quaman and laughing stock have been making the best db content lately.
@@justinarzola4584can he beat the allegations?
the zoom-in at "vegeta's technique" xD i love it 7:06
Mike has been on fire for the past few months. I’ve been rewatching these videos multiple times!!!!
Anywhere from 101% to 199% based on the user's choice. It only hits 200%, double the power, at "Kaioken x2". Kaioken itself, at base, doesn't double your power,.
2:51 "Take him home and stay there."
Yeah, so much for "there won't be any mercy for you".
I always preferd Goku using the Kaio-Ken & spirit bomb, then using ssj as a last resort, instead of just going ssj right of the bat
Agreed.
I wish SSJ kept it's mystique for a few arcs more before becoming a "normal" part of the arsenal.
@@KaiserMattTygore927 it also made the fights better and longer
Kaioken is more taxing on the body and would wear him out more.
Watched half the video so far, one other consideration to note (and how I always understood it)
King Kai talked about never going above two-fold, but I always interpreted that he could control how hard he did it a little more than that.
1.1x, 1.3x , 1.6x, 2.2x
It’s an energy technique, not special equipment, he certainly reaches an upper limit but perhaps there isn’t a lower limit. A real life MMA fighter would be enthralled with being able to up their battle power by 25 percent, even for short bursts, and that would put less strain on the body than times two which was goku’s known “full power” at this time
Can you do a video on how potential unleashed works? Both in the fact that at first it seems like a permanent thing but then it acts more as a transformation, and how much power it has, I saw many people say that it is as strong as the user's current strongest form without the drawbacks of it but idk they never mentioned a source for it nor does it make much sense since ssj2 Gohan would stand no chance against Super Buu I think
It was obviously a huge boost.
He went from being weaker than Goku(at any level), to stronger than ssj3 and fusion Gotenks.
He stopped using it after his fight with Frieza, because going super Saiyan was a better multiplier with less strain on the body. He only started using it again in super because the multiplier at that point would still be useful and his body can handle a lot more stress.
Fun Fact, that is an anime-only thing that Toei added. The manga (that trailed behind the anime and had more supervision from Toriyama) never actually gives Goku Blue-Kaio-Ken. Since Toei could kind of write what they wanted, someone probably thought the super kaio-ken from the otherworld tourney was neat and decided to give it to Goku in Super. After the ToP in the manga, Goku toys with the idea of something similar, but he ends up mastering UI as a transformation and so it became irrelevant. Also Also, blue is far less used in the manga as it was a huge energy user like SSJ3 was. They tended to rely on God for most of their fighting and using Blue for big attacks. Manga is definitely worth a read for story purposes. I always tell people that anime is for eye candy and the manga was for story (even it wasn't perfect) when it comes to super. Another small change is Gohan is far more relevant in the manga than anime, which is nice even as a non-Gohan fanboy. Anyways, have a good one.
Love your content man! Always at the ready for great facts!🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉
nice vid mike, keep up the consistency G🤘🏽
Multipliers are wild in Dragon Ball.
I think the biggest confusing factor is why would Goku use standard Kaio-Ken twice in a row (2nd time saying X2) if it only double his strength before moving onto X3? It most likely is actually a X2 multiplier from the get go but the misstep in writing is how the confusion came about.
Toriyama should have had Goku internal monologuing saying how he couldn't keep up with the Kaio-Ken doubling his strength but that he should try again before committing to a X3 due to the higher risk factor
Great video and even if you never understood the multiplier for a number the manga and anime clearly state Vegeta's powerlevel in the Sayian Saga as 18,000. So looking at that shows why Goku needed to go to a times 3 to even stand a chance against Vegeta once powered up. The thing that was always odd was once Goku went times 3 then times 4 he wasn't able to put Vegeta away. The only thing I could come up with was when the fighters use a focused energy attack they can push themselves higher than normal much like Piccolo did against Raditiz pushing his power well above 1,000 but not being able to fight at that power normally. But even still a kaioken times 4 should out right killed Vegeta other then the power being so out of control for Goku he can unleash it he just can take advantage of it like a ball player having a 90 plus mile per hr fast ball but with no control that ball won't go to the strike zone.
I always thought this was pretty clear, but I guess not! You actually do bring something up though that would make a good video (if you haven't already covered it): What's up with only specific characters being able to raise their ki through beams/blasts? Like, if Goku and Piccolo can raise their power levels through the Kamehameha and Special Beam Cannon, but Raditz can't, what does that imply for Raditz's ki blasts? I've always personally chalked this up to just Toriyama still figuring out how he wanted power levels to work, because it really doesn't seem to mean anything or make much sense?
It’s pretty straightforward from what I can tell. I could be wrong but it’s likely gokus base after training with king Kai without Kao ken is between 4-5 thousand putting him dead even with nappa. At minimum base level kao ken is a 2x multiplyier putting him at 8 or 9 ( anime). However it’s not stable so kao ken x2 is an example of deminishing returns likely only getting him to 10-12. It’s not unitl things get desperate where 3 and 4 closes the gap but our boy definitely feels it from that point 😂
I've always thought of the kioken as a spectrum. King kai's "don't go above times two" statement suggests that going below times two is possible but times two is the safe limit. A x1.5 would absolutely be possible, but against Vegeta, he needed at least x2 and against anyone else, he didn't need it at all (save Nappa, and Ginyu).
I read the Piccolo quote to Dr Gero where he says all the Z Fighters have learned to "Amplify their base energy in short intense bursts" as saying they all learned the Kioken. Since even in the Frieza saga Goku was using it without turning red. Which makes me a little upset they brought the Kioken back in super just for Goku.
The red aura appeared as soon as they dramatically revealed he'd been using it the whole time, if I recall. Short-term amps have always existed regardless of kaioken, that's what they're doing every time they "power up," proceed to spark, and go to attack.
@@Frogman1212 This quote from piccolo makes it seem like a new thing though. Go back and watch piccolo vs Gero he says "let me tell you a secret we all learned..." Also this comes directly after piccolo trained with Goku between Saga's. In the Saiyan Saga Kuririn asked Goku if he could learn Kioken and Goku tells him he might be able to.
Also another point against "powering up" being a short term burst is all the villains surprised by transformationless power ups. People like Kwi Dedoria the Ginyu force and Zarbon don't power up. KaioKen really feels like it's just a technique to do exactly what piccolo said. Amplify base energy for short intense bursts. It's really nothing beyond that.
I don't see why everyone wouldn't try to learn KaioKen. They pretty much all always steal each other's techniques. And it's obviously something any race can do.
Happy fourth of July Mike🎉
Happy 4th of July!
Great video thanks for clearing this up 👍🏾
Base kio ken being x2 makes sense
It's simple math. I don't understand why people have a hard time.
The formula for kaio-ken is: base + base x kaio-ken(n)
Using 10,000 for easy numbers...
Kaio-ken is 10,000 + 10,000(1)= 20,000
Kaio-ken x2 is 10,000 + 10,000(2)= 30,000
Kaio-ken x3 is 10,000 + 10,000(3)= 40,000 and so forth.
If kaio-ken x2 doubled his power, then standard kaio-ken would be a 1x multiplier, which, anything x1 is itself (10,000x1=10,000) so standard kaio-ken would confer no increase in strength.
But as we see from the manga, if standard kaio-ken doubles his power, then the above formula i wrong would be correct 👍
@@FirstnameLastname-yc2mtthis formula is wrong. As was already seen from the manga, Goku using the Kaioken x2 was not enough to overpower Vegeta. He had to use x3 to actually hurt him. Then during the beam struggle, the Kaioken x3 Kamehameha was locked with the Galick Gun. He had to use x4 to overcome it.
We know for a fact that Vegeta’s power level was 18000 and Goku’s was around 8000. So it makes sense that with the x2 (16000) Goku can’t hurt Vegeta, but he can at x3 (24000) and it would take x4 to overcome an energy dense concentrated beam like the Galick Gun. You can also refer to the manga here Bulma reads Goku’s power level during the Kaioken x3 and literally says it’s around 23,000 before the scouter explodes.
If we use your formula, then Vegeta would have easily been defeated by the Kaioken x2 and would never be able to match the x3 Kamehameha let alone survive the x4 one.
The lowest form of Kaioken doubles base, then triples, and so forth.
@@paliboy93 there's so much there to unpack...
First, "Bulma reads Goku's power level during the Kaioken x3 and literally says it's around 23,000 before the scooter explodes."
Right, so she never records how high hos power level reached because the scooter exploded. That doesn't mean that was his highest power level at that point, just the last point she recorded it before the scooter exploded.
"If we use your formula, then Vegeta would have easily been defeated by the Kaioken x2..."
Have you never seen DBZ? Power levels are not static. Fighters can raise their power levels by charging their ki, hence their levels raising when using an energy beam. Your own reasoning defies itself as you assume Vegeta can't raise his base power level above 18,000. Goku raised his base power level against Raditz just by taking off his weighted clothes.
"The lowest form of Kaioken doubles base, then triples, and so forth."
This quote, your concluding statement was the face palm of your entire post. You literally are agreeing that my formula is correct.
Kaio-ken standard: base(8,000) + base(8,000) x kaio-ken(1) = 16,000 which is double
Kaio-ken x2: 8,000 + 8,000 x 2 = 24,000 which is triple.
You literally agreed with my formula and didn't even realize it, smh.....
@@FirstnameLastname-yc2mt
You literally say that Goku’s PL in x2 is 30,000. If that were the case, Bulma’s scouter would have exploded when he did the Kaioken x2. Instead it explodes when he does x3.
Vegeta’s max PL on Earth was stated to be 18,000. Anything you say against this is headcannon and wrong. I won’t hear anything you say that refutes this because you are wrong.
And no I don’t agree with your formula. Goku calls it the Kaioken x2 and gets pushed back by Vegeta. Meaning his PL was 16,000. Not the 30,000 your idiotic formula postulates. Goku calls it Kaioken x3 and his PL is 24,000. Your idiotic formula states that the Kaioken x2 triples base and x3 quadruples base. That’s false. You are one factor too far ahead. There is no such thing as Kaioken x1. The lowest form of Kaioken is x2. Watch the video you’re commenting on.
@@paliboy93 ..... you have comprehension problems. A formula is a basis by which to solve an equation by using variables. I never said Goku's power level was 30,000. I used 10,000 as an EXAMPLE.
That's number 1. Number 2, Vegeta's power level was not a max of 18,000 because if that were the case, Goku would've been strong enough at
I thought this was rudimentary, myself...
Kaioken = double one's base power.
So, therefore x2 (and so on) would only stack from there.
x2 being is triple one's base power.
Etc.
I always just assumed that Kaio-ken x2 is the start of the multipliers
My favorite technique
Ive never watched this even as a little kid and wondered how much his power multiplied. Seems like a no brainer it doubles his base.
I always thought it was a times 2, good to confirm it.
Nice swashbuckler stache Mike.
The last time Goku use Kaio-Ken was against Metal Coolee, then super Kaio-Ken against pikkon
Love the new moustache style, Mike! 🎉
If Goku can suppress his ssj to the point that krillin throwing a rock can hurt him then Goku's base kaioken can be as weak as he wants it to be
I don't think kaio ken allows the user to suppress ki.
@@justinarzola4584 I'm not saying it suppresses his ki. I'm saying that Goku can choose the increase he gets. So 1.2 or 1.5 it all depends on whatever he wants
@@ojpickle5923 makes sense. Explains why he can increase it to x4, x10, and x20 without King Kai even teaching him how
@@VXception imagine if x20 is just actually him using it correctly and it's the proper version of it but king kai not knowing how a non deity would handle the technique has been assuming the weak base version was him doing it right
@@JoJoZaka that would be an interesting concept if that was the case. I could see it
Never realised there was a debate on this
Do a video on how a DBZ storyline would playout if Gohan hadn't slacked off after the Cell Saga.
Yeah, I was confused about that because I thought kaio-ken x3 meant he was 3x as strong, which would mean 1x was 1x as strong, which meant it did nothing. So x3 actually meant he was at 4x his power, so he was at 32,000, and x4 brought him up to 40,000. So when he went x20 against Frieza, that brought him up to 21x.
You're wrong. Kaioken 3x IS A 3X MULTIPLIER.
@@Ramble1234
youre the one whos wrong.
kaioken ads the users base power to itself.
basic kaioken doubles the users base power.
x2 tripples.
x3 quadripples and so on.
kaioken has always been base power + (base power x kaioken multiplier)
@@uteriel282 kaioken and Kaioken 2x mean the exact same thing lol. Why would kaioken 3x quadruple the power when it's a 3x multiple of base form?
@@Ramble1234
because base x 3 + base = base x 4.
ive already explained it in the easiest way possible in my last post but it seems like youre struggling with basic 3rd grade math.
@@uteriel282 Quit being a dink. That makes absolutely no sense LOL. It's multipled on top of base power.
Goku's powerlevel was 8000. If he did Kaioken 3x, it would bring it up to 24,000, which would be enough to damage Vegeta and cause him pain. Why else would he need to use it if he could've just used 2x to begin with? The same with 4x; you're argument is illogical. Just admit you're wrong.
Goku used Kaioken before and it didn't do shit against Vegeta. According to you, wouldn't it be more than enough to damage him? Also, Toriyama would never make things that complex for the readers to understand. It's just basic multiplication.
Every official video game with multiple levels of Kaioken has had x1 & x2 as separate power ups. That can't be a mistake, they must keep notes on attack name techniques to maintain continuity.
That’s really stupid like what’s a x1 Kaioken gonna do besides give you an aggressive red aura
@everardo2345 1.5x multiplier.
@@Choppy_Z it’s not bruh, watch the video, it’s literally the same as x2
That’s not true. Budokai 1 has x2, x5, and x10 only. Budokai 2 has x20 only. And Budokai 3 has a generic Kaioken.
The Tenkaichi games don’t explicitly state any multiplier.
The only game I’m aware of that does what you’re talking about is Raging Blast. A far cry from “every official game.”
@@paliboy93 Only retro RPG's use real power levels and multipliers.
Dragon Ball Z Super Saiya Densetsu 1992
Dragon Ball Z Goku Hishouden 1994
Dragon Ball Z Gokuu Gekitouden 1995
Dragon Ball Z Super Gokuden Kakusei-Hen 1995
I was always under the assumption that it was a 25-50 percent boost depending on which one he needed
Presumably it can be any multiplier that is higher than 1 and lower than 2. Maybe including 2 itself.
So basically Kaioken is 100% base power x2 = 200% x3 = 300% etc. not sure why it got so complicated.
I'm in the camp of the base Kaio-Ken being x1.5. if not, it would mean that Kaio-Ken x2 would actually be a 4x multiplier, 3 a 6x multiplier, 10 a 20x multiplier, and 20 a 40x multiplier. That's a bit much.
Plus, in the fight against Goku, Vegeta was at 18,000. Even with the Kaio-Ken and KKx2, Goku couldn't keep up. If the base is a 1.5x multiplier, that would've made his power level at KKx1 12,000, and KKx2 16,000. Keeping Vegeta more powerful than Goku.
So the base KK is a 1.5 multiplier and every other one just multiplys Goku's power by whatever number he calls out. That's my head canon anyways.
I always thought it was an 1.5x multiplier.
Inconsistencies from the manga/anime but overall you’re right. Doesn’t make sense for “regular kaioken” being 1.5x and double 2x.
What makes sense for me would be
Kaioken = original power level x 2
Double kaioken = original power level x 3
Triple kaioken = original power level x 4
Like kaioken doubles the user power, if you double the kaioken you’ll get the double of just the power up + the original power, not the double for the entire power , and keeps growing like that. But then that doesn’t would make sense to match goku power levels because kaioken two times would be goku with 24.000
My head cannon is that the initial kioken just powers u up like gokus power was 8000 vs vegeta so anything between 8001 and 15999was they power that he could get and then 16000 was times two and so on
the fact that king kai said that "you can't go beyond x2" makes me think that if goku wants to he can below x2, like a 10% boost or something, he just chooses to go x2 by default
It's simple math. I don't understand why people have a hard time.
The formula for kaio-ken is: base + base x kaio-ken(n)
Using 10,000 for easy numbers...
Kaio-ken is 10,000 + 10,000(1)= 20,000
Kaio-ken x2 is 10,000 + 10,000(2)= 30,000
Kaio-ken x3 is 10,000 + 10,000(3)= 40,000 and so forth.
If kaio-ken x2 doubled his power, then standard kaio-ken would be a 1x multiplier, which, anything x1 is itself (10,000x1=10,000) so standard kaio-ken would confer no increase in strength.
But as we see from the manga, if standard kaio-ken doubles his power, then the above formula i wrote would be correct 👍
My headcannon was that base kaioken would bring out the absolute power of Goku. As if he focused his kamehameha into hand to hand combat. Example when Goku used the kamehameha against Raditz but now he can use it in a fight head on.
Good video
I explicitly remember the dub saying x2. Been a while since I've seen the subbed version so maybe there was a mistranslation.
Lol as a child, I just assumed it was a 50% increase in power to 12,000
What if trunks traveled back in time to Namek or the saiyan saga?
That should be a video too.
Or why didn’t babidi arrive earlier on earth?
Do you think kaioken could be stacked on top of Gohan's Mystic form, since Ultimate just seems like a second base form? It wouldn't really be helpful for Gohan now that he has Beast, but imagine if the humans got ultimate and kaioken and combined them, and how powerful they would be.
More people should've learned that technique like Yamcha, Tien and probably Piccolo. It's strange that King Kai held that back and also the Genki Dama. Yeah, it'd be useable with ultimate because it's similar to SSG and doesn't have the strain of SSJ
@@Valientlink I mean even Krillin could've learned it when Frieza killed him, as long as he got to King Kai's planet fast enough for him to learn the basics. Gohan's base was lower than Goku's in the Buu saga, but with Ultimate he was stonger than SSJ3 Goku. That means that the multiplier for ultimate is probably around 600. So if you just half that and give it to the humans, with kaioken times 5 they would have a 1500x multiplier. Imagine if we got to see Jiren getting ganged on by the humans and Piccolo.
Please do a video on how piccolo grabbed whis arm
The kaioken is , if not , favorite technique Goku uses.
KAIOKEN x 20!!!!!
Ahhhhhhhhh!!!!! Haaaaaaaaa!!!!!🔥🔥🔥🔥
i don't know why but every time I think for Kaioken i also think of what would happen if Kaioken and sage mode was combined
death
I always thought it added your power level for each application. For example Base Goku in Saiyan Saga is 8000, so Base Kaioken makes him 16000, (8000+8000). Kaioken x2 would be 24,000 which I feel is evident since Goku needed to be at Kaioken x2 to keep up and overpower Base Saiyan Saga Vegeta.
He never overpowered Vegeta with 2x. He just barely dodged his attack. He needed to go 3x to when stand a chance against Vegeta. Why do you think he did it in the first place, let alone 4x?
Thanks for the video man the Kaioken is one of my favorite techniques of the series and i really loved it when it made a comeback in Super! 🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥
And happy 4th of july! 💙🤍❤️
As a reader, him saying "Kaioken" then "Kaioken times 2" confuses me much more than him saying "Kaioken" then "Kaioken times 3".
Mike, would you consider doing a video of who is Goku's best teacher? Between master roshi, kami, king Kai, etc? If I missed a video like this I apologize.
I did a video with Geekdom101 on his channel about this in a multi-part collab we did with Goku's Greatest Enemy on my channel. You can find the Greatest Master video here: ua-cam.com/video/axlrEn4DSDI/v-deo.html
@@LSMMIKEthank you sir!
Its actually pretty simple now that you've brought it up. Ive just been trusting the video games that kaioken and kaioken x2 are different things. I imagine thats where most of the confusion has come from
It's simple math. I don't understand why people have a hard time.
The formula for kaio-ken is: base + base x kaio-ken(n)
Using 10,000 for easy numbers...
Kaio-ken is 10,000 + 10,000(1)= 20,000
Kaio-ken x2 is 10,000 + 10,000(2)= 30,000
Kaio-ken x3 is 10,000 + 10,000(3)= 40,000 and so forth.
If kaio-ken x2 doubled his power, then standard kaio-ken would be a 1x multiplier, which, anything x1 is itself (10,000x1=10,000) so standard kaio-ken would confer no increase in strength.
But as we see from the manga, if standard kaio-ken doubles his power, then the above formula i wrong would be correct 👍
@FirstnameLastname-yc2mt Don't know why you bothered typing that completely incorrect formula. Plain as day that x2 is the lowest the kaioken goes, Goku just said kaioken times two that one time as a set up for when he was about to say times three
Vegeta clearly says Goku's PL is "higher than 8,000" not 8,000 so it's conceivable that his starting battle power is 8,500
8,500 x 1.5 = 12,750
8,500 x 2 = 17,000
8,500 x 3 = 25,500
Kaioken x 2 can't possibly be higher than a double multiplier as that would put him ABOVE Vegeta
I was thinking it was +50% or 1.5x
So the same thing 😂
I've always thought base kaioken was x2 then he used x3 then finally x4 during the beam clash
If this is True then like I'll just think Kaio-Ken X0.5 Sounds cool.
No matter what the 50% Kaioken is heat.
I can really get why it was phased out in favor of Super Saiyan- not only is doing the drawing of it using a lot of ink, but it gets hard to keep track of multipliers and keeping the dramatic tension if they used it over and over.
SSJ is just easier to draw an indication of power without over-complicating things.
One way to look at it is that Goku doesnt have the experience of Kaioken , he just learned it.
Kaioken isnt double since 8000x2 would be 16.0000 nevermind x3 or x4 , meaning its much lower then that and once Goku goes beyond regular Kaioken the multipliers arent equal anymore becaue his body cant handle so the multipliers are less the more he goes upward.
Unlike his Frieza saga version which has more experience , if that Goku were to do a x3 times with the same power as his Saiyan saga self , he would obliterate Vegeta because his Kaioken is better
This is even mentioned when Cell did a Kamehameha against Piccolo ,at which Piccolo says "from Goku back then" meaning his Kamehameha isnt as strong as it could be for his powerlevel.
Its not just powerlevels going up but also the experience they have with the techniques , you can also count it for Tien's Shin Kikoho , if that Tien with the same power as his former self but with the experience he had ,he would erase Nappa.
Never thought this was in dispute, it was always a power doubler in it's "base" usage.
I've always gone with "Kaioken" is upto 2x. but if he says a higher value then it's whatever he says.
I would’ve guessed base Kaioken doesn’t really increase your power, instead it just maximizes your senses. Kind of like Ultra Instinct but less potent and efficient
To understand Kaioken you must understand who King Kai is. King Kai in the Manga was a being so feared that he rivaled King Yama. You know the big red Demon guy that becomes stronger each time someone dies. Even Xeno couldn't erase him cause without him everyone would become immortal. Anyway the Kaioken bolsters all physical parameters. This means senses, physical strength, speed, power.
To use this let's you lifting weights you max is 215lbs. Use Kaioken x2 you lifting 430. Times 3 you lifting 645lbs. But you also hear 3 times better, see 3 times further. Your heart pumps 3 times faster. Your metabolism. It's an whole body multipler. Super saiyan is just upto keyword upto 50x power level. Kaioken is superior to Super Saiyan, but it cost more often.
I think its either adds half ur base power or 1.5x ur base power or maybe its just 2x base multiplier
also I kinda think that the "mystic" form may be more like a permanent kaioken at least as permanent as a transformation. seeing as to how it's a kai ability and more advanced than king kais
2. I honestly don't know where the confusion comes from...but that is like half of the questions that the Dragon ball community ask.
I think it‘s clearly a writing error, they called the basic kaioken „times 2“ and kept referring to it wrongly all the time after that. Also, we should maybe stay with the mange, since the multipliers and powerlevels outside of that (in additional material) might state the specific time it occurred, that specific instant, which becomes clear when you try to detect the powerlevel of a tired-out SSJ… maybe it was 50 in Goku‘s fight on Namek, but doesn‘t mean it‘s fix. Same with Freezer‘s 120 million.
I've never understood why this was a debate. It would just be weird for it to be 1.5x, and that would kinda fuck up the other multipliers.
where can i find the pic on the thumbnail? beautiful artwork
Looks like the manga
Kaioken is variable, when he's anouncing kaioken X2, it just means that he's increased the multiplier to his chi output to 2. When it's at X10, he's burning through his chi 10X faster than what his body would normally permit.
ya, this precludes the question that of there is a x2. what is the multiplier for base.
@@JoJoZaka not really, there is no base, it's variable, when you start you might start at kaioken 1.1 meaning 10% boost. It's a variable increase, the fighter can push it as hard as his body can take.
Times x2!
It doubles his base power. Which is 5000 at this point, so:
Kaioken = 10.000
Kaioken x2 = 15.000
Kaioken x3 = 20.000 and so forth
What is the issue it doubles your strength, speed etc. it always doubles . So power level 100 kaioken is 200, x2 is 400, x3 is 800 etc. Kaioken is x2 so Kaioken x10 is power level times 20 (doubles).
In my head I was thinking more like this
Kaioken: 2x
Kaioken 2: 2x2
Kaioken 3 : 2x3
Ect ect…
So basically I was thinking it’s a kaioken literally stacked upon a kaioken basically
so it’s kaioken on top of another
So a 2times power boost stacked on top of a 2 time power boost
I questioned this for years.
I always felt the base was a 50% increase then x2 double and so on with each multiplier being correct which would explain why he used base and x2 against Vegeta and still couldn't stand up to him until he went x3.
I feel Goku just started using x2 all the time as his personal base since by the time of Namek he was able to handle it so well that he could use x2 with no side effects.
You didn't even watch the video
I convinced myself that Kaio Ken and Kaoi Ken x 2 were the same.
Have you done the same for the great oozaru form? If not can you?
I have always wondered how vegeta would have faired on Namek agents the ginyu’s in that form
Happy 4th all
Also Ginyu's estimation of Goku's power wasn't far off if you don't take kaioken into consideration. He's only off by 5000
I'd like to say that base kaio ken is anywhere from 1.25 to 1.75 of the base power level. Probably closer to 1.75. When he uses it against powered up Nappa, who's level goes from 4k to about 7k or so, Goku was able to injure Nappa but not really do much to Vegeta.
So when Goku fights Vegeta for the first time and he does base kaio ken, he's likely getting his fighting power from 8500 or so to right around 15k. Enough to kind of hang with Vegeta (who powered up from 10-12k to 16k) but not enough to hang for long.
But since the chi from kaio ken burns up, it gets right back down to 8500 or so and Vegeta was still stronger than Goku. But a kaio x 3 would bump it up to about 25k which was enough to do something to Vegeta...for a short time, anyway. He says this explicitly in both the manga and anime after the assault, saying "He won't quit, that's alright, I won't either...but my body might!" He ALSO says this to Captain Ginyu when he says "this is nothing compared to when I use my power in bursts!" after getting to the 180k.
Mike is wrong at the 7:00 mark. The giarikku ho bumped Vegeta's power to 18k which would eventually drop to 16k. THAT was what Dodoria meant when he said "Vegeta could barely get up to 18k" when describing his power. It's why Goku needed to go kaio x4. Cuz the kaio x3 was getting him to lose ground since kaio ken provides an energy boost at the expense of energy in the future. He got to 24k or so but it was dropping rapidly from that point.
That's why the kaio x4 hurt Goku more than Vegeta. Sure his level got up to 30k but it was only for a few seconds before going all the way down to 8500 (at most). But those few seconds were enough to get Vegeta to lose ground on the beam struggle. Its why he says "I'll need to gamble on it!" before doing it. Goku was also depleting that kind of energy at a slightly faster rate which was why Goku was really hurt afterwards and why Vegeta was only slightly affected.
Weird question but i just thought of it why does scouters blow up so easily at these power levels (sayian saga level). The only reason i ask is because we know later on they have better scouters that can withstand namek goku levels. Is there a in story reason like Frieza didnt gave the sayian good equipment on purpose or like they only get the better scouters if the planets is deemed a threat. Like earth was considered weak so the sayians only brought the cheap scouters.
Honestly I always just assumed that the base kaioken was just 1.5 multiplier
Regular Kaioken is just 1.5x.
8.000 × 1.5 = 12.000.
Then Goku used Kaioken times two that doubled his base form from 8.000 to 16.000 but still wasn't enough to match Vegeta (Goku's words) because Vegeta had a power level of 18.000.
Then Goku used Kaioken times three and his base went from 8.000 to 24.000 and finally overpowered Vegeta.
If regular Kaioken doubled his base power the Kaioken times two would have been enough to overpower Vegeta but Kaioken times two wasn't enough as Goku himself said so it doesn't make any sense to assume the regular Kaioken is a x2.
I could’ve sworn I told people that Kaioken is 2x at base, then whatever times that after so like
Kaioken= x2
Kaioken x2= x4
Kaioken x 20= x40
It's a 1.5x multiplier; if it truly was a x2 then what is Kaioken x2? It can't be a 2.5-multiplier because that would have put Goku ABOVE Vegeta but as we all saw, x2 wasn't a match for him either.
I always assumed it was just a way to get to 100 percent power instantly. Powering up early on took so much time. Considering he uses a 20 times vs frieza and super Saiyan is supposed to be 50 times it has to be just a way to get to 100 percent quickly. Its not a actual multiplier
New video topic. Could vegeta have won on earth without turning into an ape? Goku was pretty worn out from the kaio ken x4 and likely couldn’t do it again whereas we saw vegeta has plenty of stamina left, even being able to fight after getting hit with a weakened spirit bomb. Goku would pretty much have had only the spirit bomb left to try. Also without transforming, gohan and krillin also probably wouldn’t have come back until much later if at all. Was vegetas attempt to transform actually what cost him the fight? Had he come back and evaluated gokus current state first could he have won?
Yes. Vegeta would have decisively won if he didn't turn into the Oozaru. And yeah, transforming cost him the fight. It took a VERY long time for Goku to recover after the kaio x4. In the manga, Vegeta spends about 20 or so minutes looking for the moon so he could transform. After the beam struggle Vegeta's power level was right around 14k or so. Goku was probably at 5k or so.
So if they were to keep going without Vegeta transforming, Vegeta would have beaten Goku just by persevering. Vegeta wouldn't have allowed Goku to charge up the Genki Dama, the fight would have certainly dragged on, and Vegeta would have won.
I'm sure this is why Vegeta is way more of a tactician on Namek, because he probably thought the same kind of thing you are.
Thanks for watching. It’s actually on my list of topics. Will likely come out sometime later this year.
Just think goku went from dead to super saiyan in like a month or two
Kaio Ken and Kaio Ken "x2" are the same thing. They literally tell you that Kaio Ken is a 2x boost. The next level from Kaio Ken is x3. King Kai told Goku to never go further than the basic double multiplier. The series says Kaio Ken is a 2x multiplier on several occasions and the next step is Kaio Ken x3. Goku saying "Kaio Ken times two" that one time with Vegeta is just to immediately set up the idea of "times three" for when he yells that moments later.
It's simple math. I don't understand why people have a hard time.
The formula for kaio-ken is: base + base x kaio-ken(n)
Using 10,000 for easy numbers...
Kaio-ken is 10,000 + 10,000(1)= 20,000
Kaio-ken x2 is 10,000 + 10,000(2)= 30,000
Kaio-ken x3 is 10,000 + 10,000(3)= 40,000 and so forth.
If kaio-ken x2 doubled his power, then standard kaio-ken would be a 1x multiplier, which, anything x1 is itself (10,000x1=10,000) so standard kaio-ken would confer no increase in strength.
But as we see from the manga, if standard kaio-ken doubles his power, then the above formula i wrote would be correct 👍
What you're getting wrong is king Kai said don't go past kkx2, he never said it was twice his power. Kaio-ken is twice his power because it's his base + basex 1, which is double.
That's like saying ssj1 and ssj2 are the same.
Always thought it was double because on namek his power was 90k, 180k with kioken so double
Yk it really makes no sense that Goku who was at 900k with kkx10 before fighting Ginyu and going into that rejuvenation, went from that to 3 million w/o kk, but Vegeta went from being slightly weaker than first from Frieza to not even 1% of Frieza's power after that zenkai
well forget kk. Goku's regular power 90k.