Cell Saga Goku Vs Vegeta BEFORE Time Chamber Training
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- Опубліковано 17 лис 2024
- Cell Saga Goku Vs Vegeta BEFORE Time Chamber Training: Who would win? @LSMMIKE discusses this DBZ What If fight featuring the Dragon Ball Z anime and manga!
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you must be eating them Senzu Bean Laughingstock cuz you putting out these video left and right. keep up the great content
🤣🤣🤣
Arguably the coolest era of Super Saiyans.
For sure, especially if we include even the movie like Cooler, Android 13 and Metal Cooler.
Its the best era of SS tbh
1000% yup
@@simpgod2170early buu saga was also good ngl
@@cyberdemon6517 SS1 in the Android and cell arc, has the most wins out of all the SS forms
This was my favorite timeframe in DBZ. You had the Androids causing mischief, Imperfect Cell sneaking around gaining power, Piccolo was the strongest Z Fighter, and there were no outrageous power scaling scenarios.
Peak dragon ball
Honestly. The Android saga and early cell saga is my favorite part of the series handsdown. It really felt like you genuinely didn't know what was gonna happen next.
@@tracejones5952 Same here! Imperfect Cell is by far my favorite form of Cell. I felt like he lost his uniqueness each time he absorbed an Android.
@@keljerel agreed. Much more generic after first form.
I also like that most characters were close to each other in power, and it wasnt just Goku & Vegeta. Piccolo and Tenshinhan were at least SS1 level.
it’s unreal how you keep coming up with interesting topics so regularly. your channel has become my daily go-to 🥰
As a working man, I love your videos at work and the fact that they just keep coming keeps me sane at work haha.
@@BiggieCheeseJr. I also listen to them at work lol
It's really funny to think about it retrospectively that goku and vegeta really only fought 2 times in Z. from a modern anime perspective, rivals only fighting twice is a really low amount. It's a shame they didn't actually fight at this point and have a battle pre time chamber since that was the only time they were somewhat relative in the cell saga
I feel like in old animes the main rivals really dont fight that much, at least as much as you’d think.
Goku v Vegeta, Naruto v Sasuke, Yugi and Kaiba off the top of my head don’t have that many fights.
I guess it makes it more worth it when they do battle
Actual fights, they only fought twice. In the Super manga, it’s stated that by Whis that Goku usually wins their sparring matches. That’s why at the end of Super Hero when Vegeta wins the sparring match, he’s happy as hell lol
@@tomato2517 I can remember at least five times Naruto and Sasuke fought for real, though only twice were they relatively even and in the other three the fight was interrupted.
It might not be a lot if you only count part 1 (twice, both in the final arc), but for a pair where one of the combatants is actively avoiding the other for most of the series they exchange blows quite often.
If you take into account they must've sparred a lot more often on and off-screen, their dynamic really shows the difference between rivals and enemies, even though the line may be blurred sometimes.
@@HayatoByakurai fair, they had a good amount of skirmishes, and the two major fights are great enough to make up for them not having full on fights outside of that.
It’s just something I noticed in earlier animes that make rivalries feel a biiit less intense compared to what the writers are trying to convey when they talk about rivalries. Like with Goku & Vegeta, even though i still love their rivalry overall and the fights they did have
I'm leaning more on Vegeta. Goku has been stronger than Vegeta at several times at the series but for whatever reason he has never actually beaten Vegeta in a one-on-one fight. I think it would come down to motivation. Goku just wants a good fight whereas Vegeta wants to win.
Interesting information
I'd say Vegeta takes it too
If vegeta threatens the earth safety to fight goku I figure Goku takes him out with warp kamehama which is a strategy vegeta would not know about and is lethal. A friendly sparring match with nothing on the line vegeta wins.
In the original story, Vegeta and Goku are equal in potential. (Vegeta is stronger at this particular time though)
However (and disregarding Super) Vegeta explains at the end of Buu _why_ Goku is typically always ahead of him.
It helps to think of this like a video game, like those grindy games:
All the fighters fight for a reason, like some think of justice, protecting others like family and loved ones, revenge, so on.
Vegeta himself fought for pride and for his own glory, he likes fighting... but his pride and glory always came first before his love of fighting. Most Saiyans like Nappa, Raditz, even King Vegeta did it for Pride as well.
However, Goku is different, he fights for nothing other than just *loving* to fight.
Goku spares others not because of any self righteous mean, he spares them to fight them again, and again, and again.
This is why fighters after meeting their reasons for getting stronger, go on a slow decline. Even Vegeta IF he ever met his goal of beating Goku and being the best, wouldn't try as hard after.
It's the thing of early Dragon Ball of the first Tenkaichi Budoukai (it's the recurring theme) that if a fighter thinks they're at the top, they don't try as hard.
Meanwhile Goku is different, even while being the best, he never stops training at his best. He always pushes ahead because to him? Training and getting stronger is like eating candy.
Have you ever try to beat someone who just loves to grind? You can't. You get burnt out eventually and they keep going like a marathon that never ends.
As Vegeta puts it at the end of Z
"Kakarot... you're the Saiyan that _just_ loves to fight! You are number 1"
1)Vegeta knows about it because he saw Goku use it against cell.
2) Vegeta can teleport/use instantaneous movement also.
Bad take
Imagine if during a beam struggle goku used instant transmission to leave the beam, teleport behind the enemy in an instant, and then again ultimately leaving the enemy between the two blasts as they explode.
I thought about that too
interesting but impossible, the enemy would overwhelm him because he has to weaken his beam (even if a bit) so he can focus on teleporting himself behind said enemy
Zenkai boost were very much relevant at this point of the series but Toriyama is inconsistent. After Cell self destructed his power skyrocketed due to the zenkai. Thorough out the tournament of power Goku and Vegeta in particular kept getting stronger as well so I think it just depends on when the writers choose to use them.
It's my head cannon that cell was on the verge of SSJ2 before the zenkai
It might also have a lot to do with Whis's training, he pushed them and made them so much stronger to the point they had wells of power inside they never realized were there. It could also be because of th God ki in their bodies changing over time
I think zenkais were truly only utilized well on Namek.
Perfect Cell’s usage… makes 0 sense.
Vegeta says you don’t zenkai from self harm, and Perfect Cell got it from blowing himself up! A contradiction.
It’s also the one and only zenkai brought up since Namek.
It’s weird. Vegeta also states that Saiyans grow with every fight. We thought it was the after effects, but Super proved that they apparently improve mid battle/or when emotionally distressed.
Bleh, it’s exhausting trying to keep up with Manga scaling on top of that.
Mike is right. They weren't relevant except when cell exploded.
I think it’d look VERY similar to their fight as SSJ2s in the Buu Saga. They were pretty evenly matched at this time.
Well yeah Goku literally capped himself at Vegetas power for the sake of a fair fight and respect for Vegeta and his massive amount of pride. Keeping SSJ 3 in the back pocket the whole time is a dick move
This is an underrated fight that I don’t actually see talked about enough. Well done. 💪🏼
Virus apart, i think their power is pretty close but Vegeta could be slightly stronger because of the hard training even if a winning Goku wouldn't surprise me, the instant trasmission technique would be crucial. While in my opinion Goku became stronger after the time chamber because did a smarter training: Vegeta trained without involve Trunks.
P.S.: could you make one video about Mecha Freezer? In my opinion he wasn't so stronger than his 100% form on Namek.
Well like you said it's your opinion. The fact of the matter is mecha frieza is stronger than his 100% form.
Agreed, Vegeta was more powerful but Goku was more resourceful and likely would have won.
I lean more towards Goku simply because of instant transmission, it'd be the only time goku actually wins against him, though it could easily go the other way if Vegeta anticipates the attack since he does know about it.
Imagine how close that battle would be though.
Please do a video on what you think would have happened if Vegeta did decide to team up with Goku against Fat Buu. And let’s assume Goku does not go SSJ3 since he still doesn’t want to hurt Vegeta’s pride lol.
Love these comparasions man! Keep them coming!🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉
Vegeta. I'm gonna trust Piccolo's assessment (especially since he was the main one to inform the audience of things back then 😏).
He said he might be stronger, he was definitely stronger than Goku against 19 bc the virus nerfed him. Tien’s comment implies Goku is stronger but not so much stronger that it would make a difference against the Androids. Physically I think they were equal at this time but Goku would figure out a way to win due to battle IQ. If it came down to both being drained and out of SSJ remember Goku could pull out the Kaioken for that slight edge even if it’s just for an instant
@@KurokamiNajimiin a figth when both are pretty equal vegeta wins like we see at their both cannon matches vegeta won both with his battle instinkt
@@jades5772 They have 2 canon fights wdym? The 2nd one ended inconclusive. Super isn’t canon to the original story it doesn’t even add up with the timeline and Vegeta admitted Goku is superior to him towards the end of the Buu arc
@@KurokamiNajimi They do have 2 canon fights: Saiyan saga and Buu saga. Vegeta definitely won the first, but I would say that the second didn't have a clear winner, and it's not even fair because Goku held back SSJ3 which would have allowed him to win easily.
@@KurokamiNajimi I don't think Piccolo was wrong about things he said when he was analyzing a situation. Of course there were many times Goku was superior to Vegeta in power - but he's never actually defeated him. Something to remember about Piccolo's opinion is that he was training with Goku and Gohan for the androids, so he had knowledge of Goku's power. I doubt there was a big gap, but I think Vegeta probably had the edge around that time.
Keep up with the great videos bro 😎
I give it to Vegeta, he was out for blood still. Goku just liked a good fight but Vegeta trained much more intensely and was infuriated to not be a Super Saiyan. We saw how he would've easily let Bulma and Trunks die while going after Gero. Taiyo-Ken could get Goku out of any sticky situation but I highly doubt he'd use it unless he knew he was going to die.
Very close and interesting fight, I think vegeta takes this because he's shown to be a much smarter fighter on top of the fact that goku is not fighting to kill vegeta so he likely wouldn't use the warp Kamehameha. Also prior to the ROSAT vegeta trained much harder than goku did, and piccolo has implied on a few occasions that vegeta is stronger and piccolo trained with goku so he would know.
Ah the age-old debate. In my head I give Vegeta the edge pre-HTC just to throw him a bone.
That's a tough one. Im gonna go with Vegeta. He trained at a higher gravity level than Goku did. And Goku was getting sick from the virus.
Good vid my man I like how you present stuff without bias.
”my heart is pure, pure evil” is tough af
Another great video!! Thank you
I think they are probably about the same. Goku was significantly weakened by the heart virus so we dont really know exactly how strong he was. Vegeta was maybe slightly stronger, but it would probably be a draw/lean Vegeta if they fought.
Love your content Mike!!! Also, looking spiffy my man!! Keep up the great work!
I'd enjoy seeing a video from you on how powerful Gohan would have been had he still trained between the Cell and Buu sagas. And moreso, how powerful would his mystic form be in that scenario?
Vegeta was just so ruthless at this point that I don’t think Goku would have beaten him.
I say Vegeta is stronger. Mainly because Piccolo would have seen Goku at full power without the heart virus weakening him, during the 3 years of training. Piccolo implied Vegeta was stronger than Goku at that point. Even though power levels aren't used by this point, my guess is it would be something like this:
Super Saiyan Vegeta: 550,000,000
Super Saiyan Goku: 500,000,000
And in the Movie: Super Android 13, Vegeta are stronger than Goku ❤
I really think that point before Vegeta and Trunks went in the time chamber Goku would have had the edge since he should have had a much stronger zenkai from the heart virus than Vegeta would have gotten from Android 18.
I don’t think you could get a zenkai from a heart virus/internal injuries like that, but who knows
I agree that in terms of raw power (ya know since power levels were no longer a thing at this point in the series); Vegeta is superior.
However, that Instant Transmission is the game changer as far as I'm concerned. Think of Vegeta launching power Big Bang Attacks or Galick Guns that Goku could warp away from to deliver a sneak attack.
That would cause major ki burnout from Vegeta's end. Goku could just play defense until he sees an opening to land a critical blow.
Power aside, I think one of the main reasons I could see Goku winning more times out of 10 than Vegeta; the prince's ego! Don't forget that Vegeta's pride/ego were on a completely new level in the Android Saga compared to anything before. He finally became a Super Saiyan, surpassed Goku, defeated one of the androids that was said to kill him and the other fighters (well he THOUGHT he did because at the time they didn't know 17 & 18 were still at the lab), etc.
I could see him pulling a 'Majin Vegeta' and just doing a lengthy monologue long enough for Goku to take advantage of the trash talk and beat him! He's held a grudge against Goku since their first battle. I don't see Vegeta going for a quick win. He'd pull somewhat of a Frieza and make it a slow dance of pain and agony while talking crap until he screws up...
Instant transmission costs alot of ki as well. He's never spammed it. I'd assume it's like a Kamehameha level ki drain. I'm leaning vegeta for his intense gravity training
Thank you Mike, dope vid
I think Goku learned the Warp Kamehameha inside the time chamber. Goku in the Andtoid saga is probably where Vegeta is in the Moro arc that he knows Instant Transmission, but it's not something he can use with ease quite yet. Instant Transmission and charging a blast like the Kamehameha are both things that take concentration, and we never see Goku being capable of doing both at once until he's Mastered Super Saiyan VS Cell.
Also since you brought up filler, the second Cooler movie seems to take place sometime between Vegeta getting SSJ and prior to the time chamber, as both seem to be SSJ1 in that movie (I know, the movies don't actually fit into the main line time frame, I'm just giving a period it's based on)
In that entire movie while Goku does use Instant Transmission to keep up with Metal Cooler who somehow also knew IT, from what I remember neither Goku nor Cooler uses IT in combination with a chi blast.
So it doesn't seem to be something that's that easy to do, and isn't shown anywhere until Goku becomes MSSJ.
So I don't think the Warp Kamehameha would be a factor here as it kinda feels like Goku isn't quite yet able to put those techniques together.
That said even if the Warp Kamehameha isn't a factor yet, Instant Transmission in of itself still is. To refer back to the second Cooler movie again, IT gives both Goku and Cooler speed that Vegeta simply can't match. Heck I think at one point Vegeta was just going to kill them both and using IT Goku and Cooler was both able to dodge a Big Bang Attack from Vegeta that was fired at point blank.
So while I don't "think" the Warp Kamehameha would be a factor yet myself. I can seen a battle between Goku & Vegeta in this time period being a case of power VS speed and who has the most overall endurance. Vegeta having the higher power. Goku having the greater speed with IT. And finally who has the best endurance.
Nice video, enjoyed it
Nice Video Bro... The Kiaoken & Instant Transmission Would Body Vegeta ... No Contest!
I had never thought that the Saiyans inability to sense the androids could lead to the lack of zen kai boost. I always wondered, especially with future Gohan versus the android so I love that bit of an idea.
Also I do believe Vegeta would easily be over taken by Gokus instant transmission Kamehameha. Unless vegeta becomes aware of the technique prior to fighting..because i do believe thr stand off they had in the Saiyan saga was meant to blow the planet up, so to force Goku to "take the hit" or else. I could see him pulling a stunt like that if he were to rematch with Goku and was aware of his ability to warp Kameha.
Another thing we have to consider is their mindsets and emotional state going into the fight. Yes, Vegeta may be stronger than Goku, but I feel Goku would have a focused mind and would want to do his best and Vegeta wouldn't. Vegeta will be overly emotional and feel immense pressure to win that he will end up making mistakes and get sloppy as the fight drags on. I can totally see the outcome of the fight, where Goku baits Vegeta into a beam clash and Vegeta wouldn't hesitate to prove he's stronger and fall victim the Kamehameha Goku did on Cell. Overall it would be a neck-and-neck close fight with Goku winning due to Vegetas arrogance and emotions getting the best of him.
I honestly think that super saiyan Goku and super saiyan Vegeta before they trained in the hyperbolic time chamber were on the very least on par with each other. There are only two testimonials on Vegeta being stronger than Goku, from Vegeta himself, as well as Piccolo and Kami, but Vegeta's testimony is biased and driven by ego. Vegeta's testimony can't be taken into consideration, but Piccolo's could be considered since he actually trained with Goku for 3 years. A factor that shows how strong Goku and Vegeta are would be super saiyan future Trunks, who both Goku and Vegeta have been shown to be stronger than as super saiyans. Goku's sparring match with future Trunks showed that he was stronger than future Trunks, while Vegeta was shown to take more damage from Android 18 than Future Trunks who defeated by a hit from 17 and 18. Even if Vegeta himself received a zenkai boost from the humiliating defeat he received from Android 18, you could argue that Goku also received a zenkai boost from recovering from the heart virus and the fight with 19. While it is quite possible that Vegeta was stronger than Goku, it is also possible that Goku and Vegeta were about even.
That’s all we need. Piccolo knew goku power better than anyone other than Gohan at that point. They trained for 3 years together. And Vegeta never in the series has said he was stronger than Goku when he wasn’t (at least up until that point)
This is a great video. Seriously. I never even thought of this scenario till now. I always thought Goku developed the Warp Kamehameha after his time in the chamber with Gohan like Vegeta did the Final Flash when he was in there with Trunks. I got Vegeta though but it would be a great fight for the ages 💯
Awesome video as always! Do you think you could do a video on if the humans trained on the Hyperbolic Time Chamber before the Saiyans Arrived?
Vegeta at base way stronger. Training way more tense so naturally just Ssj form be higher than Goku's. Goku had more time with the form yet had to train to use it at will. Vegeta seems to be more knowledgeable and talented with the form as he could use it at will right away while Goku had to train to become a Ssj at will. He also knew the Ssj form would likely make the virus worse much faster. Vegeta while he lost brutally to 18 but shocked both her and even Trunks with his power. I think Goku just had more wisdom and fine toned skill in handling the form peacefully but it seems like Vegeta naturally took to it and understood it better even realizing the form could have high highers (Ssj grade 2) even though mastering Ssj was better Vegeta knew it could go beyond. He just understood it better alot with having more tense training up until Goku stepped into the time chamber.
Fire content as always brother
11:35 i dont think thats the case as saiyans were getting zenkais for years and as we learned in the saiyan saga, it threw vegeta off guard that goku was able to sense him somehow without a scouter
I call this the Meta Cooler/Android 13 era lol. We basically see this Goku and Vegeta in the Return of Cooler and Super Android 13, fighting side by side. The are pretty equal in those films. It's really cool how close they are in strength at that point. Can you make a video on if Goku and Vegeta spared in the Future timeline before Goku died? That 3 year gap in the future always intrigues me!
How strong would Cell have been if he absorbed ALL of the androids? 🧐🧐🧐 Great video
Not more than he already was. He tried to absorb 16, but 16's mechanical nature prevented it. Cell absorbs bio matter, not mechanical. And as far as I'm aware 17 and 18 were the only bio models.
Instantaneous movement as well
I think the instant Kamehameha and the Final flash were techniques thought up on the spot through desperation and not techniques they had all the time
Vegeta used a prototype final flash while fighting recoome on namek so that one could have been a normal technique already
@@mrassassinscreedfan1
He used prototype on Frieza as well but Frieza easily kicked it away.
Why didn't Goku just use the Room of Spirit and Time during the 3 year training gap? You know, other than the fact that Toriyama didn't think of it till writing the Android Saga 😅
Android/Cell Saga has so many logic gaps SMH LOL
They only got 2 days max, so it's a last resort for when time is short. And only 2 people can go in at once.
They had 3 years to train and there's 3 of them (Goku, Picolo, and Gohan).
The last time Goku went in he only lasted a month, and he was much older than Gohan is at this point.
In the original story, Vegeta and Goku are equal in potential.
However (and disregarding Super) Vegeta explains at the end of Buu _why_ Goku is always ahead of him.
It helps to think of this like a video game, like those grindy games:
All the fighters fight for a reason, like some think of justice, protecting others like family and loved ones, revenge, so on.
Vegeta himself fought for pride and for his own glory, he likes fighting... but his pride and glory always came first before his love of fighting. Most Saiyans like Nappa, Raditz, even King Vegeta did it for Pride as well.
However, Goku is different, he fights for nothing other than just *loving* to fight.
Goku spares others not because of any self righteous mean, he spares them to fight them again, and again, and again.
This is why fighters after meeting their reasons for getting stronger, just stopped. Even Vegeta IF he ever met his goal of beating Goku and being the best, wouldn't try as hard.
It's the thing of early Dragon Ball of the first Tenkaichi Budoukai (it's the recurring theme) that if a fighter thinks they're at the top, they don't try as hard.
Meanwhile Goku is different, even while being the best, he never stops training at his best. He always pushes ahead because to him? Training and getting stronger is like eating candy.
Have you ever try to beat someone who just loves to grind? You can't. You get burnt out eventually and they keep going like a marathon that never ends.
As Vegeta puts it at the end of Z
"Kakarot... you're the Saiyan that _just_ loves to fight! You are number 1"
Please do a video on why Vegeta get different finishers, but Goku only has one.
Goku uses the Kamehameha, the warp kamehameha, the Oozaru Penetrative Punch, the Dragon Fist, the flying headbutt, and the Genki-Dama (first version is kinda like a Spirit Ball like Yamcha's move, and the second version is the gigantic overhead ball of doom). I'm probs missing some as I don't remember how he took out every single opponent.
Vegeta has the Galik Gun, Big Bang Attack and Final Flash. I guess you could include him kicking off Guldo's head and neck stomping Burter, if you wanna boost his numbers up a bit.
You should do a video about how the "Broly hates Goku because he cried" thing is a mistranslation! There's a great thread on kazenshuu called "Does Broly even remember Goku as a baby?" which outlines the dialog in the original Japanese version of the movie, and analyses what the actual point of the crying scene was in the JP script: It turns out in the original Japanese dialog, it's never established Broly even remembers Goku (or vis Versa, obviously) and the whole point of the crying scene was rather just showing that the two had intertwined destinies, with Broly (both as a baby and in adulthood) being triggered by Goku's determined spirit and drive, wheras Broly himself has emotional instability and weakness (hence Goku's strong wailing despite a low power level as a baby making baby Broly sob in spite of his strong power)
Someone already did that
@@freetime2freeminds Who? Anyways, even if so, very few people in the fan community know it's a mistranslation, the more people who cover it the better
Man that actually sounds pretty damn stupid as far as narrative goes. People bash the English version for him being angry because he's just triggered by the constant crying but it actually makes sense. People go crazy and find it super annoying in real life so it makes some sense. The Japanese version of the script just sounds pretentious honestly. Their destinies are intertwined because? Nothing? Lol
@@SoulbentAnime something about broly instinctively knew goku would be the one to kill him, so he viewed him as an immediate threat. its somewhere on reddit, it's pretty well written but i guess you can't please everyone
@freetime2freeminds that's completely different from what the other poster described. So Broly's a clairvoyant like Bardock now? Still doesn't make sense.
The only time when mentioned that zenkais dont work anymore is with Gohan after having his ass kicked by Butenks and being helped by Dende; that later is said again now with Goku and Vegeta in DB Super after recovering from Black Goku and Zamasu beating
this is one of my favorites. i personally always thought goku would win. i truly believe vegeta has more raw power at this point, but i dont think its enough for vegeta to pull off the victory. vegeta was wayyyy too cocky during this time period. had he fought goku, vegeta hubris would have been his downfall. goku would have used vegetas ego and lack of super saiyan experience to stall vegeta long enough for goku to get the upperhand.
In the anime, Vegeta trained in the gravity room was up to 450G
I'm very heavily on team Goku here. The way the story portrays them is that all 3 of the Super Saiyans are probably fairly close. If Vegeta is 100, Goku should be 90-97, and Trunks right under there. Looking at the characters fights throughout the series, Goku constantly fights people at or above his level of power and does well. He overcomes disadvantages frequently, has a much deeper technique pool, and frankly a much stronger mentality than Vegeta. The series itself doesn't feature Vegeta digging deeper and overcoming stronger or challenging foes - he mostly knocks around people weaker than him. Goku here would be closer to his power than any other fight Vegeta ever has in the series: closer than Cui, Zarbon, Jiece, 19, Semi-Perfect Cell, etc. Vegeta absolutely isn't dominating. And that's why I think he'd lose - if Vegeta doesn't dominate a fight, he loses the fight, ever time. Goku is different, as we see against both Piccolos or even Cell later. He can turn a difficult, close battle into his favor. Vegeta can't. Goku 8.5-9/10 IMO.
vegeta beat goku both times in z tho
sure goku overcomes anyone and anything but vegeta might be the perfect counter against him
@cyberdemon6517 Vegeta only won the first time because he had a completely op transformation that goku had no counter for. The second time goku was clearly stronger since he had ss3 (vegeta admits this and is pissed) Goku just refused to do anything that arc because the writing was at its worst then.
@@christianbaker3564 not only that goku ssj2 is stronger than vegeta ssj2 because vegeta needed the main boost for his ssj2 to be evenly matched with goku
Obviously zenkais are played loosely goosey like a lot of Dragon Ball, but I like that head canon for why Gohan never got more powerful. 👌🏼
Pre-Time Chamber? I think you're correct that Vegeta may take it six times out of ten.
Post-Time Chamber? Goku takes it ten times out of ten.
I figured Goku's 100% full power was equal to Veget's 90% power.
Tien was talking like Goku was the strongest of their group. He's severely outclassed so he wouldn't really know especially since he couldn't even tell that there was something wrong with Goku
Once vegeta became a ssj piccolo even said he was stronger than Goku is I remember correctly so until they went into the time chamber I'm going to give it to vegeta
Piccolo said "he might have surpassed Goku". Might.
So even if Vegeta was above Goku's power, it's marginal. So roughly equal power.
So a stronger Vegeta would lose to a weaker Goku with a trick up his sleeve like there very first battle was. I guess history repeats itself.😂.
15:32
It's weird Goku can sense and see the events even though he's not awake and that Vegta knows what Goku will do the same without even talking to him
Damn goku defeated goku on namek. Crazy
This a good discussion
You always wonder just how strong Goku and Vegeta could have gotten if they abused their near death zenkai boost.
Vegeta and Goku were more or less equal in GT with Super Saiyan 4 and in Super with Super Saiyan Blue I think. Anyways keep up the work Mike!
Although they can't sense them, they probably can still get a sense of where they are compared to them. That thing you said ab future Gohan could be true but remember, Gohan was a lot weaker than them since he didn't really train in that timeline until the androids appeared. Also, they didn't have senzu beans like that so Gohan too very a very long time after almost every fight he had with them to recover.
I give it to Vegeta mostly on motivation alone. He would be so driven to beat Goku, whereas Goku more so just values a good match.
2:46 TIL Vegeta and I are about the same weight.
Basically: fluffy SSJ Goku VS fluffy SSJ Vegeta
:D
When discussing power levels in db people always seem to only take into account base level and multipliers. Now this is because we were only given so many definitive numbers to work with, and those numbers only included alternate readings for few characters, like main characters while launching a final attack, etc. but the ssj form is a transformation and users are always shown at different levels of power throughout a single fight. Not to mention different grades of the form. This implies ssj is not actually a 50x multiplier and that is merely the power increase goku got on namek. And the idea that gohan being able to manhandle cell who was stronger than him in ssj makes ssj2 only being 2x make little sense. Characters have to be more than twice as strong to dominate like that. And if ssj3 is 4x stronger than 2, there’s no possible way any sayian could last in a fight at that level. Against an enemy over 4x stronger? I think the way power scaling in db is done needs an overhaul.
Characters don’t have to be twice as strong to dominate someone. That’s a fan-made thing. In reality, it makes more sense for their base power to rise and the multipliers to stick. For example, mastered super saiyan is the same multiplier as regular super saiyan but in the process of tryna master the form Goku probably doubled Vegeta in base power. That effectively makes any of the other grades weaker to Goku in regular super saiyan. Goku and Gohan were stronger than Ultra Trunks because they significantly raised their base power making their super saiyan forms a lot more powerful and a lot more efficient in the process. That goes with the dialogue as far as when Goku and Gohan come out the chamber, Goku says I’m far stronger than u Vegeta. And he’s also been constantly telling Gohan, you’re far stronger than me.
Before the time chamber, Vegeta probably woulda clapped him.
Probably Vegeta since piccolo knows best unless he got a zenkai from beating the virus.
Well we don't get to see a 100% Goku at this point the series due to the heart virus. While I think Goku increased his power quite a bit, he couldn't train as efficiently as usual since Piccolo and Gohan would have to be able to keep up with him if they're gonna make progress.
As for Vegeta, it isnt explicitly clear when he was able to unlock super saiyan. But the entire time he's training at a ridiculous intensity at nearly 500x Earth's gravity. Even though he had a lot of catching up to do, Vegeta increased his power exponentially. I believe Piccolo says he's far stronger than even Goku.
Since Piccolo knows how strong Goku truly is, what he says about Vegeta seems to indicate that even at maximum power, Goku still isn't as strong as Vegeta. So I'm going with Vegeta being the stronger of the two.
That’s exactly my understanding of it. Goku wasn’t training nearly as intensely as Vegeta was, as Goku was training with two weaker people & really couldn’t go all out a lot when training with Gohan. Vegeta is not only using the time chamber but has more driving him at this point to catch up - when you have that extra ounce of motivation driving you when you need to catch up with someone, it can push you past them. Vegeta trained hard and Goku slacked.
This moment has always struck me as a moment where the show is basically telling you Vegeta has surpassed Goku. It’s just that he’s surpassed him very slightly to the point where it’d be a 50/50 fight.
Toriyama only lets Vegeta surpass Goku in scenarios where there’s not an opportunity to fight and have Vegeta validate his ego as the stronger one
Goku was already way above Vegeta at this point and had SSJ for over a year. Then Goku gets two training partners. Vegeta trains solo in 300 (not 500) gravity. Training with a parnter is said to be very effective. And by the fight with 19 and 20, Piccolo puts up as good a fight as Vegeta does. So Piccolo is on par with SSJ Vegeta. SSJ Goku would be roughly the same level too.
Piccolo doesn't say Vegeta is "far stronger". His exact words are "he might have surpassed... even Goku". Meaning that even if he is stronger than Goku, it's not by much. Certainly not "FAR stronger".
So if the two are on euqal power level. It comes down to fighting ability, techniques, etc. And that's where Goku has a massive edge over Vegeta.
Laughingstock media forgot a few things about zenkai boots. First off, Vegeta has been getting zenkai boost waayy before learning how to sense power levels, which is why he was using scouters before/during the saiyan saga. Second, vegeta had gotten stronger after fighting the androids but that just wasn't enough to deal with them at the time. Thirdly, future gohan was getting zenkai boost from fighting the androids, which is probably why he survived for a long time. The 2 reasons why he lost fighting them the last time is because he only had 1 arm and 17/18 had a fluid fighting style that includes tag teaming.
Vegeta never had to try that hard before fighting Goku. He cherry-picked his opponents. I doubt he was getting huge gains from zenkai before Saiyan/Namek saga.
Zenkai's work by giving bigger gains the closer to death a person is. 18 broke Vegeta's arma nd beat him up a little, but he was certainly not anywhere near death. So again, it would only be a tiny zenkai boost at most.
Literally the only reason future Gohan lasted so long was because the androids were having fun toying with him. The reason why he lost to them was because they got bored and finally decided to kill him. They even told him right before this that the last time they had faught him, they weren't even using half their power. Gohan didn't know this and thought he actually stood a slight chance (comparing himself to the androids at 50%).
@@EndoScorpion Well true that he never had to try hard prior to fighting Goku. Could be that Frieza knew this and kept him at a certain level for the most part since he knows how Sayians are. So, I was saying that AFTER he fought Goku and the huge Zenkai boost that he gained is when he learned how to sense power levels without a scouter. He did not have this ability beforehand as Laughingstock had implied the he did before the fight. Now regarding future Gohan, yes the androids were playing with him for years while keeping him alive, but I still believe if he never lost his arm trying to protect trunks that he would've beat them eventually. Missing an arm is a huge disadvantage with one's equilibrium/balance, and the androids knew this which is why they jumped him. Because Gohan was beating them whenever it was one on one. He just never received the advanced training from the time chamber to make up from his injury since he had no one else to help him. And then there's plot to have Gohan die anyway.
While these two appeared to be equal in strength, I believe Goku will win this against Vegeta.
Reason 1 - the ability to use instant transmission and solar flare. Vegeta has the new Big Bang Attack that requires him to be accurate to hit his opponents. He won't be able to hit him as much because of his IT, Solar Flare, Ki Senses and agility.
Reason 2 - the training he received while he was in Yardrat. The journey he took to learn IT is what will give him an advantage over Vegeta. The mental training it took to achieve allowed him to maintain better Ki Control and Concentration.
Reason 3 - Goku is known to be a tactical martial art genius. While this took place during the training chamber, he had the mindset to train, eat, breath and live in Super Saiyan Form instead of Base Form. While Vegeta seems to work himself to death to reach his next-level. Vegeta didn't think to do this. So, I wouldn't be surprise if he had that same mindset or preparing for it, since he had the Super Saiyan Form longer than Vegeta. Another variable to consider is their fighting styles. While Vegeta is shown to be a strategic fighter, he also leans on explosive energy attacks, which drains him quickly. While Goku on the other hand, focuses on adaptability and versatility, which may give him an edge over Vegeta. To me, it demonstrates his efficacy in his time, energy, and training to prepare for his next opponent.
Reason 4 - Vegeta's Pride could be his downfall. Vegeta is known for his pride and anger that in turn could blind him in making better combat decisions. He underestimated Frieza, 17, 18, and Cell that he put the world in danger multiple times. So, I wouldn't be surprise if he still uses this mindset against Goku even though he fought him in the Saiyan Saga. It takes a long time for him to learn from his mistakes.
In Conclusion, both are strong fighters, but it takes more than just strength to win. If this was a battle of their mental state, tactical decisions and techniques, then I believe that Goku will be the winner in this case.
You know vegeta won both their cannon matches?
At the buu saga both were equal at strength and vegeta was beaten goku with his brutal And Taktik figthing stile
It would be the same figth here
@@jades5772 Well, in the Buu saga, Goku had SS3, which he didn't use against Vegeta. Vegeta does not possess this ability. During the battle with Majin Vegeta, Goku still didn't use SS3 against him because he feared he would lose time on earth, or he wanted to be on equal footing with Vegeta. At the end of the Buu saga, he acknowledges Goku as the better fighter and has a new motivation to surpass Goku.
@@SwiftlyTony360 yes which makes the both only using ssj2 a equal figth and vegeta won this equal figth
This one here would go the same way
@@jades5772 You could be right and may play out the same way, I don't doubt that. If this was a battle where you can add a ratio to it, chances are that Goku could win, let's say 6 out of 10 times or vice versa with Vegeta. It's just that to me, Goku has shown a history of pushing his limits, overcoming challenges and finding innovative solutions to defeat his opponents, like the Instant Transmission Kamehameha Wave Combo. Overall, I'm glad we are having this discussion has I find it interesting to learn more in these What IF battles.
@@jades5772 Vegeta didn't win that fight. It ended undecisively becuase Buu hatched.
Vegeta suckerpunching goku in the back of the head AFTER the fight, does not mean he won the fight.
Whether they're on the same level of power, or Vegeta is slightly above, I'd still give it to Goku.
Goku grew up always fighting stronger opponents, having to fight smart; utilising a variety of techniques, exploiting weaknesses, and pushing himself beyond his limits to get a win.
Vegeta on the other hand grew up being the strongest (saiyan). Cherry-picking fights he knew he could easily win. Relying solely on overpowering his opponents. His first fight with Goku showed us that if Vegeta faces even the slightest bit of difficulty he would lose his cool and make mistakes - which cost him the fight in the end. Even on Namek he would avoid fights he knew he couldn't win easily. Only taking on opponents he thought he could easily beat. Even against the Ginyu Force, he was forced into a fight, and when he didn't win easily he was about to just let Recoome kill him until Gohan saved him. Then ran away at the first opportunity he got when Goku turned up. He also gave up too easily against Frieza too, after doing a brief attack and it not working, he just gave up and let Frieza pound him hard.
Vegeta doesn't know how to take on stronger opponents. He either avoids the fight or he gives up way too easily. Even in the Buu saga he just blows himself up.
So yeah, even if Vegeta is slightly above Goku in power, Goku would fight way smarter and has a way better arsenal of techniques to use. Vegeta would try to rely on brute power alone and cry when that didn't work.
Yeah I do agree that Vegeta was alot stronger than Goku would have been in his peak level Super Saiyan form without the heart virus. I still believe that Goku would still have put up a decent fight.
I contest the assertion that Vegeta is stronger than Goku prior to the time chamber. None of the statements you pointed at give good reason to believe Vegeta is stronger.
Vegeta bragging about being stronger than Goku is pure boasting. It can't be used in the slightest as an indication of Vegeta actually being stronger.
Piccolo didn't say that Vegeta was stronger. He said that Vegeta MIGHT be stronger. Even Piccolo, who had seen Goku and Vegeta's power first hand, is unsure.
Goku knew that he wasn't significantly stronger than Vegeta, so he could say with confidence that anything Vegeta can't beat, he wouldn't be able to beat either. That doesn't mean Vegeta is stronger, just that Goku *isn't* stronger.
As for the fight itself, there's no evidence that Goku could do the Warp Kamehameha prior to the time chamber. If he could, he would have used it against Android 19. He did not. Therefore, relying on that to give Goku the win is a nonstarter. There's also no reason to believe Goku would stop the fight in the middle and leave himself vulnerable like he did in the Buu saga. The situation there was radically different.
Ultimately, if they fought before going into the time chamber, it would likely be dead even, and probably be interrupted by the androids finding Kami's lookout (or wherever they decided to fight).
Goku couldn’t use the warp Kamehameha against Android 19 because he didn’t have a Ki signature to lock onto. That’s how the technique works, as explained by Goku when he debuted it. This applies to all of the Androids. It only worked with Cell because he could sense him. Just like he can sense Vegeta.
Narrative intention is important when it comes to analyzing a fictional work. Toriyama repeatedly has characters mention the idea Vegeta is stronger. Nothing contradicts this at any point. If it had, you could make an argument he isn’t. But the burden of proof relies on those claiming he isn’t, of which the evidence is sorely lacking.
But thanks for watching and commenting, I appreciate it.
Also, I broke the entire topic down in a video I referenced in this one. My content is interconnected. You can find it in the video cards, below the description and on my channel.
@@LSMMIKE The burden of proof is actually on the one claiming Vegeta is stronger. The narration itself only makes it clear that Goku and Vegeta are about the same.
And speaking of narrative intention, if Toriyama had thought of the Warp Kamehameha sooner, he would have used it against 19. Unless you believe that Goku could actually sense Master Roshi from halfway across the globe when he teleported to him. You know, the guy with a power level of around 100.
That’s not how burden of proof works. I laid out all the evidence in my video(s). You’re just choosing not to accept it, like what I just said in my previous comment.
Also, yes, he could sense Roshi across the globe. Just like he could sense Bulma across the globe in the following arc who has zero knowledge of Ki. Just like he can sense characters from separate dimensions like King Kai. He can’t sense 19 because he’s an Android and that’s not how the technique works, which I just explained.
great looking guy #noHomo
How come Vegeta never tried to wish for immortality again?
The only reason Vegeta wanted eternal life was so he could eventually overthrow Frieza. Once Kakkarot defeated Frieza and Trunks killed him for good (until Super that is), Vegeta had no reason to rely on immortality, especially since he has far surpassed Frieza since their last encounter on Namek. Notice how even Frieza no longer seeks immortality, but instead to surpass the gods.
Basically: Eternal life is kinda played out.
SSJ Goku was able to hold off SSJ Trunks with one finger. To me, that implies he was at least 1.5x stronger than he was on Namek, putting his base power at anywhere from 4.5 to 5 million.
However, training with Gohan & Piccolo for 3 years likely only resulted in no more than a 2x increase in base power. It was more so to bring both them up to speed than to increase his own power. This would put his power at anywhere from 7 to 10 million.
Vegeta’s power likely tripled or quadrupled from what it was at Namek, putting it at anywhere from 7.5-10 million.
Saiyans got zenkais before they were able to sense power.
Vegeta would at least get his left arm broken from the teleport Kamehameha 😅😂
I believe the key word is maybe. With respect
I’d be curious to find out if Vegeta would’ve actually tried to kill Goku. There is certainly a motive difference. We know Goku would only accept the challenge so that he can enjoy a good fight. Probably no REAL desire to win. Definitely not as much of a desire as Vegeta. We know that the mentality to want to kill the other would give that person an advantage. However, Majin Vegeta didn’t take the opportunity to kill Goku. He just knocked him out. He could’ve used a ki blast or something and killed Goku at that point. So I’m curious if Vegeta would actually try to kill Goku in this fight. Which could play some factors as to how much of a mentality advantage Vegeta would have. How much would that affect the outcome? It unclear. But something to think about.
I'd say it's only an advantage if the other person (not wanting to kill) is holding back. But that never seems to be the case in Dragon Ball. Even Goku goes all out with his attacks. The only time he holds back is when he's got a massive power advantage over the other person.
Going for the kill could also be a detriment, as they could put more energy into each attack, trying to make each one a killing blow, exerting oneself faster. The opponent could exploit that to were down their opponent, let them waste energy on overly big attacks that get blocked or dodged.
Goku is a much smarter fighter, having faced and beaten many opponents stronger than him. Having to utilise techniques and exploit weaknesses, and fight smart.
Vegeta tends to only pick fights he knows (or thinks) he can easily win. And gives up and the first sign it's not going well. That's why he lost his cool so early in the first fight with Goku. If he'd remained calm, he would've won. But he raged and went oozaru, which caused Gohan and Krillin to return and help Goku.
@@EndoScorpion that’s a valid point too. Goku is the more skilled fighter. Vegeta is a fight genius himself. As Goku’s crutch is his mercy, Vegeta’s is his over confidence. He can always analyze a fight a know what one should and shouldn’t do, but when it’s him fighting, he frequently miss judges his opponent. We know during the Cell saga, Vegeta was probably at peak cockiness. His oversight may be a disadvantage in this fight. He’d go in guns blazing, trying to kill Goku. And that’s something Goku would definitely exploit.
the title is weird
its like "cell saga Goku" vs " vegeta before time chamber training"
At this point I think the fight could go either way. Vegeta could pull a Master Roshi and outsmart Goku for a win or Goku could pull a Metal Cooler give Vegeta the ultimate low blow. Or maybe Vegeta could just dazzle Goku with talk of mustaches.
Vegeta isn't a smart fighter. Goku is.
Vegeta is only smart about which fights he takes, only takes fights he knows he can win..... however in the entirety of the Android saga, his ego gets the better of him and he thinks he can beat everybody. Which is his undoing almost every single time.
Goku is constantly fighting and holding his own against opponents way above his power level. Goku fights smart and utilises many techniques and exploits weaknesses. Vegeta just tries to brute force overpower everyone.
One thing you do superior to Danny is pronounce the P inDepth.
19 and 20 always came off as weaker than Piccolo, Gokus heart virus just made him so much weaker than he should be. I'd say his power was probably dropping heavily so whatever energy 19 got just made his already weak power higher but still nothing
Piccolo performed just as well against 20, as Vegeta did against 19.
19 and 20 were on par with each other.
19 had absorbed Goku's power twice (after a senzu to recover from the first time).
While 20 absorbed power from Vegeta and Piccolo.
Piccolo also stated that 20 was more than any of the others (Tien, Gohan, Krillin) could handle solo, and that was before 20 absorbed any power. So I'd say Piccolo is about on par with SSJ Vegeta and SSJ Goku. With only slight differences in power.
The Zenkai boosts were pretty much a thing at these levels, too. Otherwise, Cell wouldn't have returned in his perfect form after blowing himself up in his semi-perfect form. The Saiyan genes made him "perfect" again without C18 inside his body.
Lol it’s funny how people think a little motivation is gonna give Vegeta the edge. When it been countless of times when Vegeta had motivation to beat main villains and still got his butt handed to him. I think instant transmission would be in Goku’s favor if he was bloodlust. Especially that unexpected combo he hit Cell with.
But there was a large power gap against those villains. I think the argument is that the power difference between Goku and Vegeta is pretty negligible at this point, so motivation could be what makes the difference.
He said Trunks got one shotted. He wasn't talking about Vegeta and, he said Krillin would've made no difference
I swear LSM misspeaks in so many videos lol “after becoming a super sayian and defeating Goku”
I kinda feel like Vegeta knew he wasn't able to beat Goku even after attaining Super Sayian, Vegeta is not dumb nor battle dumb, cocky yea sure but he isn't fighting stupid so Vegeta would know and understand that Goku had atleast a year or so more experience with Super Sayian
thank you for this video ive always wanted to see if i was the only one who belkieved vegeta wouldve wrecked goku especially after the android had already absorbed his energy so vegeta fought android + goku energy
Forgot that if u was just talking about manga or not but goku took a senzu during his heart virus in the anime
If I personally had to decide who will win this hypothetical fight then I'll give it to Goku with high difficulty
Vegeta was stated to probably be stronger than Goku by himself and Piccolo, as well as Goku saying that if Vegeta couldn't beat the Androids, then neither could he.
However, Goku likely never used his full power while training with Piccolo and Gohan, and Vegeta was in space for most of the 3 years so I take the statements with a grain of salt. Even if Vegeta is stronger, it's probably by a slight amount over Goku
Two things put Vegeta in a disadvantage though: Vegeta only recently unlocked SSJ meaning he isn't as experienced with it as Goku is, meaning he'll likely lose energy more quickly, and the other disadvantage is his mindset. Vegeta was extremely arrogant and if he sees he's overpowering Goku, he'd be sure to mock him and laugh at him for that, which can allow Goku to see openings to catch Vegeta off guard. Vegeta also never dealt with instant transmittion before so this would give Goku another advantage to catch Vegeta off guard
Overall, I give it to Goku, even if barely so
Gokus ability to innovate would eventually win the day even if vegeta trained harder. Remember, at the end vegeta power was 500,000 + zenkai for revival. Goku was as strong or stronger than frieza Man. He had a hell of a way to train to get to goku
If you wanna use the cooler movie it shows how gokus fighting technique with the instant transmission basically makes vegeta look like a sitting duck lol. vegeta may have the edge in power but at this point in the story goku has way more techniques at his disposal to make up for it. he could probably even give 2nd form cell a run for his money with a proper battle strategy pre-hyperbolic time chamber.
Goku wasn't touching Semi-Perfect Cell, before the chamber. He would have been killed by any of the androids before then.
@@number3stunner118 use your imagination all he needs is to buy time and use a spirit bomb on any of them or get the other zfighters to give him their energy. And with instant transmission which semi-perfect cell couldnt figure out yet, really none of the androids were winning if it came down to plot. And if he needed extra power he could always use super kaioken. When it comes to fighting goku only being stronger than him is never enough to win, as seen in every single saga where all the villains are pretty much stronger than him.