Victories, Recoveries, Resting & XP | Designing The Game
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- Опубліковано 17 гру 2023
- Our way to extend the adventuring day!
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You have my eternal respect for correctly identifying Legolas as a fighter with a bow, rather than a ranger.
I think some people think the word ranger implies ranged weapons, when it has nothing to do with that.
Aragorn is the ranger
I'm strongly of the opinion that Legolas is almost perfectly simulated as a Wood Elf, Samurai fighter with the Elvan Accuracy feat.
That's been a well known fact (and meme) for decades.
@@firelordeliteast6750 And even then, not a DnD Ranger. DnD Ranger claims to be based on Aragorn but the inspiration has long been replaced with self referential pastiche of Druid magic and serial killer overspecialisation. The Ranger archetype is one of my favourite types of characters, and DnD Ranger does not fit it.
I really liked that D&D movie, it was fun and had a lot of heart. I never credited the idea of a "D&D movie," and then they made one that was actually pretty good, but no one seemed to give a shit.
It's gonna go on the shelf next to The Nice Guys and tons of other movies that are exactly what people say they want, and then no one goes to see them.
Good movies are kind of like roasted brussel sprouts. It's a good experience, you feel good after, and everybody wants them in theory. But it's sooooo much easier to grab a twinkie/doom scroll.
But the nice thing about movies is you only have to make it once, and it'll still be good for a really long time.
I haven't seen the D&D movie, but if you're comparing it to The Nice Guys I may have to.
I haven't seen the Nice Guys, but if you're comparing it to the D&D movie, I may have to.
I haven't eaten brussel sprouts, but if you're comparing them to the Nice Guys and the D&D movie, then I might -- ooh, a Twinkie!
The Nice Guys is 100% my favorite underrated movie. I've seen it like 7 times, but so many people completely missed it.
"Given the opportunity, players will optimize the fun out of a game."
I don't think this is a responsible opinion from a design standpoint. Rather some players will eventually get very knowledgeable about your game to the point they find its flaws. It is up to the designer to create something robust enough it doesn't break under this pressure
@@plop0rIf I remember correctly where this quote comes from, it's talking specifically about situations where players, in a search for efficiency, will choose less fun options and playstyles. An obvious example is xp grinding in an RPG. Often optimal, but not fun. That's not "becoming knowledgeable and discovering flaws," that's just not realizing that you could be having more fun. The designer's goal, then, is to try to make sure that the most efficient options are also the most fun.
@@plop0r I don't think you get it at all.
@@clockwork_mind yes totally agree with this. I just think the original quote is putting blame on the players which is silly. It's up to the designer to optimize the fun IN to the game
@@plop0rI don't think the intent is to blame players. It's a common game design refrain attributed to Sid Meyer and Soren Johnson, which is almost always set next to its companion quote: "One of the responsibilities of designers is to protect the player from themselves." I haven't ever seen the quote not taken in the spirit it was meant.
Out of context I can see how you might think that it means to blame players, but it's explicitly advice to developers about being cautious of what unintended playstyles may be incentivised by their design. Like what you said about "optimizing fun into the game," you can design the best gameplay loop in the world, but if you never account for unassuming players falling off that path and into much worse loops because they are technically (or even just appear to be) more efficient, then it's going to happen. The quote is a reminder that while you're building the path, you should not forget to put up guardrails.
Man game design is tricky huh 🧐🤔
I really appreciate MCDM breaking down their design process like this. Because it's easy to look at a game and think "My gosh that's genius!" And not see the process where they went through 10 ideas that didn't work before they landed on the one that did; It's very encouraging too amateur designers
So true
Definitely. My company is currently working on game design for an Anime/Super Powers mashup TTRPG.
The amount of great ideas that had to be trashed or reworked is incalculable. This is why I think it's good to start playtesting early. Even if one doesn't feel ready.
I like that you're calling it a Director, gives it a cinematic feel.
Just as good as a Matt video, but don't tell him.
Impressive work.
Writing felt whole lot similar. If it wasn't the same person writing for both, then it was a very good job of recreating his style.
Completly agree. James did absolutly amazing in this video. High Quality, well done!!!!
In contrast, I feel Matt would love to know that other people can host his talks effectively. The MCDM is a big project involving a fair few people. ^^
I like that you're not just making an RPG. You're making a fun RPG.
I like how Victories turn into XP. No more trying to calculate XP and figuring out if the cleric had killed that goblin instead of arresting them then your wizard could have had fireball
I love how the solution to the problem doesn't feel just like a solution but makes for a good rule on its own. So hyped for this game, can't wait to hear more about it
I sure hope that Matt doesn't let James make too many more videos. He displays too much enthusiasm and creates too much excitement, just like Matt does. My neighbors are complaining because I am jumping up and down shouting YES!!! at the top of my lungs. Freaking Awesome!
The bug mentioned reminds me of Darkest Dungeon, where you’d kill most of the enemies then spend the last few rounds extending the fight so you can recover stress and health.
Yeah I was also thinking about that. Eventually your characters will start to get stressed out if you drag things out too long, but there's ways around it. I think in general, it wouldn't feel very good for that to be an optimal strategy in a tabletop.
It also has a mechanic where, if you do that, reinforcements arrive and you have to do the fight all over again
Victories, Recoveries, Resting, and XP are a big part of the RPG's gameplay loop at every level. Heroic Resources are a big part of that too. Heroic resources reward you for engaging during an encounter. Victories reward you for engaging with the adventure. XP rewards you for engaging with the campaign. Recoveries prevent your Victories from skyrocketing to infinity (or until you have exactly enough to level up before resting).
Any worries about heroes trying to approach their adventures so that they do all the non-combat encounters first so that they enter all the combats with more victories? If this is a problem I imagine it’s much less impactful than the bugs laid out in the video, due to the fact that many adventures have structures outside of the heroes control, but this is the one exploit I can imagine.
@@jessehamlin-navias4559 seems like that would be easy enough to balance as the director, and players wanting to prepare before an encounter should be rewarded. You could certainly put a time constraint on a situation like this if it was a concern to you. Like maybe the heroes have time to convince the neighboring army to help defend the village or go search for an ancient weapon in a cave, but if they try to do both then by the time they get back the goblin horde will have invaded.
My only real concern is being locked into a xp - level up
Will there be any guide centre for those of us who prefer milestone leveling?
@@thepunningman3891 Generally what they've said so far is that one adventure (32 to 64 pages) = one level. If you're homebrewing your own stuff it seems simple enough to plot out something around that length.
@@thepunningman3891 We may provide some alternatives, including, "You level up when the Director says so." or "at the end of an adventure."
The blending of heroic resource points, into victory points, into xp; as punctuated by recovery points - sublime.
An offering to the Machine God! (and great job MCDM team, loving the direction of the RPG).
Would love to see you take a crack at this with the high rollers sometime even as a one shot when it's published. Your higher level encounters were very inspirational to me with objective based challenges not just hit point sponges.
James's Matt impression is really coming together. Well done!
Yes!
it's uncanny... weird even
It's cute. I imagine it's hard not to slip into when you're following such a big personality.
I described this to a friend as "instead of a downward escalation curve as your cool moves are spent and dried up, it's an upward escalation curve as you do more and cooler things. You know, like stories are supposed to do."
Ooooh, "keep on rolling" is a great sign off
Reading through the preview, this was the one thing that made me immediately go "oh, this is good stuff".
I love seeing games that don't equate "tactical" with "slowly draining resources". D&D often feels like by the time you get to the boss, which should be the most exciting part of the adventure, you're so worn out that you don't get to do anything exciting.
I love you
Also the fact that most of the time bosses have some Legendary Resistance and such that basically means you're not going to try and use the cool stuff with them. I mean, I'm not going to waste my 7th level spell Plane Shift on a minion, so why am I forced to not use it against the boss that is precisely the one I'm saving it for?
I like DnD, but I cannot deny some of their design decisions make absolutely no sense, and bossfights are some of the worst designed features on 5e. If you've got spells that can instantly deal with a boss, giving it a way to resist that spell for free is just making that spell suck. Taking the Plane Shift example again, I'm already wasting a 7th level spell at least, why is it useless just because the monster says "nope"? If this spell must be used against an already drained boss or a minion, why is it using such a high level spell slot?
This turns the bossfight, as you said the fight that should be the exciting part of the game, into "okay, now I'm going to be doing dumb weak stuff until he uses a Legendary Resistance three times and THEN I'll get to try my cool powerful stuff that may still fail".
@@garethvila5108 Once had it happen in a campaign where my players knew there was likely a boss coming up so they held their abilities; barbarian didn't want to waste rage and wizard held powerful spells. They literally almost like a fight against a stone golem because they wanted to be efficient with resources, and thought this was the best way to play!
Ironically, when they got to the boss encounter they managed to get out of it using RP and social skill!
James is operating the MACHINE!!!
I really love hearing about the ways RPGs can be improved by further divorcing themselves from staples like resource attrition. I'm very excited for this RPG
So obviously I had heard this stuff before, but the video format IS the best way I've seen this information presented.
POOP!
Love the transparency and honesty of your company! :) It's so refreshing in an industry that is built around generating hype. Which you guys btw are also generating. :P
This is what hype is supposed to be. Organic, and reasonable. Once you start doing AppleCon product launches, you have jumped the shark.
Love the direction MCDM is going.
after 50 years, finally someone solved the core loop in tabletop rgps
Well, after Gygax wrote endless letters and spent literal years browbeating people for playing games the "wrong way" because his way was the "right" way, I understand the hobby's inertia.
It's taken entering the mainstream for fantasy tabletop to finally generate Its own long-lasting subgenres. MCDM is playing its part, making a tactical, cinematic, and dramatic fantasy RPG.
5e is the kitchen sink of theseus at this point, question and change every single assumption in the game! No better time to do it than now.
Not really
The problem the crew was trying to solve here reminds me of the game Darkest Dungeon where, since you can only heal in combat, a key part of the meta is stalling at the end of a fight so you can get some heals in. Additional enemies will eventually show up if you stall too much, but the main balance is actually just that the rest of the game is so hard that it's not giving the player much of an advantage.
+1 for engagement, loving everything you're doing
I think the resting rules are one of the most exciting things in this upcoming game. Tempo and pacing is a big deal when running, but it's not always intuitively understood by newer GMs. It's one of those things that is perfect for the rules to do heavy lifting on: if the rules can provide a framework for the pace of the game and also naturally encourage everyone to do things that feel dramatic, it makes the GM's job much easier. I think the old-school attrition rules really fail at this. It's why you see such it's such a common sore spot for new DMs: there's so much advice specifically about preventing rests or creating time pressure on the players. because if you fail to make the time management and resting attrition matter, the other resource systems of the game get all wonky.
There's something really funny about using the competitions own movie to advertise your RPG. 🤣
Very cool ideas here. This victory/rest/XP system is super elegant and makes perfect sense for a cinematic heroic game. Can't wait to see what comes next!
Yay Designing the Game!
i've been tinkering with the old shadowrun and other cyberpunk-ish rpg rulesets and how they all deal with "edge". and specifically borrowing the "victories" idea as it's been developed. there's something really narratively satisfying about bumping the players' powers at every story beat. and mechanically it creates a strong drive to move from beat to beat, whether its a more combat or narrative or exploration/puzzle beat. it's a huge boon to the community to have mcdm find these tricky problems and design great solutions
I wonder if any sort of downtime activities will be added to classes or kits for use during rests like sharpen blade, bandage wounds for some bonus HP. Like camping in darkest dungeon.
Very good Matt impression at the beginning, sounded just like how he would say that.
My favorite part of this game is the completely modern/innovative take on design. Yes, you guys may take inspiration from older games but the fact that you aren’t afraid to throw it all out and restart to get a better result is really really cool. Then on top of that sharing it with us! We’re very fortunate 😄
The thing, oh you mean the Doobladoo! Gotch ya!
Great explainer
I don't think it can be overstated how clarifying the notion that Victories are indeed not merely limited to combat situations opened up discussion on the Discord. This video perhaps was invaluable to conversation and brainstorming.
I really like the idea of recoveries that you're implementing into the game. It lets players take care of their own health, which reduces the need for a healbot in the group, and allows that player to spend those resources on other aspects of the game!
This is all really cool and exactly why I am so hype for this game! I've been so tired of a lot of other systems just copying D&D in total or in part, but this game really seems to introduce new things that really change the way you play at its core.
James is conjuring his inner Matt here, this presentation style is loved by many fans of this channel and I have to admit, that he is doing a pretty good job with it, too.
Matt loves good drama and narrating / presenting the videos in this way is a certain form of drama, if you ask me.
Thanks for the effort, James. I appreciate that and respect the time and energy it must have taken to practice that and pull it off.
I tip my hat to you, good sir!
Really really really liking this design, guys. Feels like you identified tons of pain points or just illogical things about the games we've all been playing and have come up with solutions to make the game flow better and stay exciting at every point. Very much looking forward to playing it.
12 hours for a rest is rather appropriate. I'm mentally exhausted after just a menial day job, I absolutely couldn't just go to sleep and be back at it again, let alone after a harrowing life and death battle. At least a few hours after work, and an hour or two for my non-morning self, is my need.
Captain carrot always takes a good nap before the final fight so he is ready for it.
Oh man I gotta play Carrot in this game.
Very well thought out solutions. I love how the rules of this game always aim for a specific experience for the players.
Love the work you're doing!
Top tier Matt impression in the opening fyi
Now I want to play this even more!! The effort you guys are putting into this - thinking things through with dedicated boundaries and goals - is going to pay off when everything comes together!
With everything going on at WOTC you guys picked a great time to announce your game. Super excited, your guys passion really shows.
As James was describing the rest mechanic, my wife shouts from the other room: "Five gold, and a party!" 😂
Ha. Made me so happy to see this. IYKYK. Would Lem be a Fury or Tactician in this System?
This is by far the most interesting aspect of the system to me so far. My players are usually good about not trying to rest all the time. However, having an incentive to press on with mounting risks and rewards would really help the flow of the game feel like we all want it too.
very nice to see designers have a "endgame first" approach to ruling, instead of making stuff up because it sounds cool or that's what people are used to and tying it up badly later in the process
I love this guy intercutting with the dramatic effects. It actually works here. :) very appropriate.
I really like the idea of “heroic momentum” in a battle. And trading in resources for XP is a great idea! Keep up the good work, fellas.
Appreciate your transparency and these updates/deep dives!
just can't wait to play this game
Victories converting to XP on rest is really elegant design. Well done, team! I'm really looking forward to this game.
I really love these videos. I can't wait to see the final product
Man this insights behind the scenes is such a cool thing. Can't wait to see how everything will turn out at the end :)
What a great solution to the problem! Can't wait to see how it develops!
Starting each combat with victories number of heroic resource is absolutely brilliant! Keep up the great work
This is an absolutely incredible video! Well done James! Backed!
Whoa! THE James Introcaso is in on this thing? Now you have my attention MCDM! Seriously though, this reminds me of a couple of RPG video games where they flip the standard model of MP on its head by making it a resource you accrue every turn rather than a limited pool that you need to restore every so often by resting at an inn or consuming recovery items. As you pointed out, the allure of getting stronger over time is getting to use more abilities more often. The down side is that it takes a deft hand to balance the desire to use a cool ability every turn with the idea of saving up your resources for a few turns in order to use the big finishing move. That’s why I like a balance between pools and meters. Pools, of course, are things that you drain over time to achieve an effect. These are balanced by meters which are something that builds up over time, but need to be rebuilt every time they are used or a new fight begins. I’m interested to hear about any future insights you all uncover in future play tests.
Your enthusiasm for the game is contagious!
James, this is an amazing video!! Well done!!
Honestly love all these updates and insights into making the game! I feel like having all this behind the scenes videos (not even going into the depth of the Patreon) is really helping the community feel like they're a part of the game, even before it releases. So thank you for sharing with us!
Love the classic Matt "woah!" when The Machine works
A similar thing occurred in the first Darkest Dungeon. You can only use healing abilities in combat, so players would artificially extend combats by keeping one weak or locked-down enemy alive to get more healing in. The devs solved this by having the game spawn more enemies if it detects you "lingering" during a combat. You could still stall for a little extra healing, but there's a significant risk/reward factor at play now.
I remember doing the exact same thing in older kings bounty and similar games - forcing the combat to last because healers couldn't do anything outside the combat and I wanted to recuperate. Recent Age of Wonders 4 game tried to address the same issue you have, and they came up with the solution that in-combat healing lasts only for that combat, and regular health restoration is done outside the combat, where it's an interesting puzzle to solve instead of boring cheese. Obviously, not a solution for ttrpg, but it's interesting to see that different types of design had the same issue and how vastly different solutions can be.
James, you did an incredible job on this video. Well done!
I like how much inspiration this game is drawing from D&D 4e. The way recoveries work is lifted straight from 4e. The victories system also seems very inspired by 4e's milestones. 4e had some really amazing game design that really hits a lot of what MCDM is trying to do, but it had too much crunch and customizability because it was designed for a computer to do a lot of the math wia virtual tabletop that never materialized.
I think maybe I shouldn't be surprised that 4e but simpler and homebrewable is where they're going since I know at least matt is a huge 4e fan.
its very comforting to see that the machine works as well as it does once again
I am not a game dev but a software tester. I love how you appoach your game design. We do so many things similar because of that i can‘t wait to get my hands on your game!
Great explanation of your design process!
So what I've gathered about some of the keywords and systems here in case anyone else finds this helpful or would like to correct my understanding:
You generate your class specific Resource (like Focus or Insight) during the encounters.
It is possible to spend your Resources for your class features and abilities, but also to interact with your Recoveries.
Recoveries are spent to regain health.
When the encounter ends, you lose your Resource but gain Victories.
At the start of a new encounter, you gain Resource equal to your Victories.
It is possible to spend Recoveries outside of encounters.
When you Rest you regain your spent Recoveries, regain any lost health, and convert Victories into XP.
Any steps or interactions here you folks caught that I missed?
You don't need to spend Resources in combat to use your own Recoveries, you spend to let an ally use theirs. Otherwise seems solid
@@MisterFizzer When they describe the system at 11:10, it sounds like there’s a way for Resources to interact with Recoveries. The specific example given indicates that particular class can use Resource to allow others to Recover. But I don’t think that would prohibit another class from using their Resource to Recover themself. A barbarian type character for example could choose to spend their action to do so (as stated by James), or we can imagine spending some Rage (or whatever their Resource is called) to do it without an action directly, or perhaps as part of another class action.
I think we’re saying the same thing.
Great insights, thank you so much!
Glad to see James can work the machine, as well as deliver a great video with solid explinations
James. You're killing it and the game deets at cool af.
The more I learn about the game the more excited I am to play it!
I absolutely love James' energy in breaking down the process of developing the victories and recoveries. It's really exciting getting to see this all out in the open!
I am beyond excited to see my ideal version of a TTRPG somehow be pulled from my brain and delivered to me from a full country away.
In my 5e games, I did my best to implement the recovery vs. sleeping while in a dangerous situation. I always allow sleep, but ask for a save on an attempt to long rest at the risk of exhaustion depending on danger of the environment. What I know, is that you guys are better designers than me, because your system of rewarding continuing to play, as opposed to punishing attempts to rest feels overall better. It presents the players with a win/win situation, (regain HP/ maintain resources) instead of lose/lose (not have enough resources for the next encounter / enter next encounter with exhaustion) with mine.
I also took some inspiration from 4e to run the parallel between per encounter abilities and per day abilities with short rests and long rests respectively, by shortening a "short rest" to 10 minutes instead of 1 hour or immediately after a battle assuming they have at least one hit dice to spend and combat is clearly ended. I had hoped to offset the cruelty of depriving long rests with this, and it actually inspired some really fun homebrew magical items to help with recovery.
The focus on objective based combat encounters is also something I have been working on as well, as I have no more desire to run a combat encounter of dumb bandits with no self-preservation instincts. Following the guidelines as illustrated in Kieith Ammann's wonderful book "The Monster's Know What They're Doing", allowing people to flee, give them objectives to maintain, and following a more restrictive rules of enemy behavior and tactics, battling for objectives feels like a whole new game and introduces a whole new bevy of interesting player choices.
I am very excited by everything here. Looking forward for what's to come.
Worth noting the importance of making encounters more tactical/interesting when they go long: Possible targets are diminishing, so choices are as well.
Thanks James, great video. It’s really great that Matt has another super star on board
These videos make me super excited to see how the RPG turns out.
I remember playing in that playtest!
So cool to see how far the game has come
I recall seeing the exact same issue in Darkest Dungeon. There were tactical recovery maneuvers which only cost your turn, so often when you had a fight down to the last foe (especially if that last foe is a support caster who can't do anything but their 1 damage retreating attack in slot 1), players would just stop attacking and only use those recovery moves. The solution they ended up putting in was the make it so that if a battle drags on the enemies get reinforcements and the heroes take a bunch stress as they realize that they've given the enemy the upper hand by wasting time. A bit harsher, but DD was designed to be dark and player-hostile in a way this RPG isn't, so I think both approaches fit the games they were put in.
Good solution for DD. It makes sense for the game. But wouldn’t make sense for MCDMs big damn heroes gameplay
@@Nastara That was exactly my point. Both dev teams were wise to choose a solution which not only addressed the problem but fit the intended vibe of their game.
This is valuable insight. Or Insight. Thank you for these updates!
I love the editing on this video. And James’s delivery energy is great, almost like he’s doing an impression of Matt! Ha ha ha.
Thanks for the video, Love the content and the sound of the game.
This system is really good - i can picture it in my head so clearly like a video game UI where the different bars drain into each other and finally into XP.
Notably, this kind of 'victory dance' where you torture a final enemy to rebuild all your resources would work excellently in a villainous game instead of a heroic one.
Not the main focus of the video but briefly touched on: love the idea of more prevalent consumable magic items like potions (but also others). One of the greatest heroic fantasy series, Malazan, uses them a lot: Moranth munitions, summonable demons, spiritwalker's song etc. Very much looking forward to this game 😊
I like that you've tried to keep exactly the same cadence as Matt does (at least, I was immediately reminded of him). Even if it wasn't intentional, it was a nice touch.
James just as charismatic as Matt! I love everything you guys say about your game, sounds like so much fun.
Why in the world does even resting sound SO FUN in your game??? Keep up the great work guys, love this cinematic feel you guys are accomplishing!
Happy to see James in a designing the game scenario!
This sounds amazing James, I am really looking forward to this, and I hope the Backerkit does even more amazing than it already is.
I love the openness of your process and progress on the game.
This is going to be incredible when it comes out :D
Great observations on that!
It's very similar to what it's possible to do in Darkest Dungeon 1. It's "common practice" to slow the fight down to a halt when the enemies have been brought down to one that cannot inflict stress so you can spend as many turns as the game allows healing and patching up.
Cool way to fix that stuff!
Despite knowing this because I read the Patreon, seeing the excitement in the video is contagious!
I can’t wait to see how many other aspects of the D20 fantasy are remixes and changed for those core 4 words
I’m so excited for this game.
Crunchy and interesting... i like it!
every time i watch a video of the MCDM rpg i want it mooooooooore
I cannot wait to get my hands on this game. You know I'm excited when the mechanics behind resting get me excited. Honestly this RPG announcement couldn't have come at a better time. My group is starting to show signs of early onset "5e Fatigue." 😂