A Heroic Death | Designing The Game
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- Опубліковано 2 жов 2024
- 🪦 How should a hero die?
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Merry Christmas everyone!
Merry Christmas Matt!
Merry Christmas!
And to all a Good Night!
Merry Christmas my good sir and a happy new year
Merry Christmas Matt!
Poor Cormac! He got the D&D equivalent of "You have died of dysentery."
Could be weirder like the fallout 1 & 2 Ron Pearlman type "and everything is screwed"
The smartest design feature MCDM had was defining its core principles (heroic, tactical, cinematic and fantasy) and then making all design decisions based on those principles. That laser focus on design is genius. Merry Christmas MCDM crew!
It's undoubtedly a good way to design. By having those core principles, they can challenge any preconceived idea they had just by taking into consideration if it fits those basic points. Even if an idea works mechanicaally and they like it, they can avoid being sidetracked if they analize it and realise it doesn't serve those principles. Basically, they make sure the game is what they want to obtain, even if they imagined things differently at the beginning of the process.
Some of their concepts, like this "death" system, are basically directly caused by this design principle. If they just rolled with "0 hp means you're out and maybe die" like most TTRPGs, the game would be fine and everyone would just accept it, but since they realised it doesn't get what they wanted to achieve they had to get their brains working to find an alternative that does serve their goal, and reached a very interesting result.
It's really cool that they explain to us how these things evolve.
It's a good way to design but I wouldn't call it genius. Pretty much every game worth its salt does that. 5e even did it. They just had different core principles and some hangovers from old editions.
@@Jhakaro No, I think more general systems like DnD specifically *don't* do this. It's why you can use it (with appropriate additions, replacements and omissions) for most styles of game (albeit with varying goodness of fit). It does make sense for MCDM to target their game at the playstyle MC espoused to build his audience, ie to be on-brand, and more generally to make an opinionated game system that has a chance to do its specific thing better than DnD and so attract an audience. 'Genius' is overstating it, but MCDM is right to have made that decision. I also like their definitions/classification and I think it allows them to define the targets they want to hit in the design and to right-scope the project so it has a chance to get finished with the team they have.
I 100% was *so* sure that you were about to say "That's life! Sometimes you *don't* get closure. I agree! And I've had some entertaining and very dramatic sudden deaths in real life."
100%! I was shaking at the beginning of that sentence!
The reason i love RPGs that death can come when and wherever. The tragedy many times comes from an unexpected death
@@MightyGachimanThen that's an important distinction in genre. That may be more appropriate in a Gritty and/or Survival style of game. Styles of game Matt has said he enjoys. But, it doesn't fit MCDM's idea of a Heroic death. Therefore, this video.
ETA: Also, you could probably very easily mod the death rules to do it that way. Do you like 5e's rules? If I wanted to hack them on the fly (I know 0 rules of the MCDM RPG), make 0 = unconscious, maybe shoot for an 8+ on 2d6, and boom.
One way our group has done dying is called “deaths door” basically once you get to 0hp or lower you are at deaths door. You can take turns as normal but if you take any damage in this state you make a Con Save to avoid death.
You could also add the house rule that there is a penalty equal to negative HP. And then give out some ability or magic items that haves that penalty for a berserker character
This a neat idea, thanks, Ive been thinking about this system for a bit - what do you do at your table with people using healing potions/spells in deaths door? Is that allowed?
@@VellziI have a similar system where you can act while dying but doing so takes you closer to death. I just flat out rule that if you're dying you can't regain HP until you stabilise. Other players can still help stabilise you using medicine or magic, but there isn't a one step solution like healing word.
Just what I wanted for Christmas. More MCDM!
The only present I needed!
"If you fall into lava but aren't dead, you can try to swim out of the pool before all the flesh melts off your bones. That's fun (and dramatic)!"
My absolute favorite quote from the video.
This is such a good idea. It's super unfun to wait through an hour of combat for your turn to be 'roll a death save'. In a game about making choices, having a choice when it comes to death is a great one.
There was one scene in a Scum and Villainy game I was running. It was in the finale of the campaign, and there was a fight going on between the crew's mystic, wielding a magitech sword made by the precursors and hopped up on combat serum he didn't even know the contents of, up against a terrifyingly powerful enemy mystic who was also hopped up on combat drugs, in a fight to protect a ritual that would terraform the dead world they were on and prevent ten billion people from starving to death. I had kind of angled things towards this because I knew that the PC mystic was not a match for this guy, and that his player would be ok with dying a dramatic death. Scum and Villainy doesn't really have very specific rules for anything worse than level 3 harm, so when the PC took a level 4, I offered him a choice. He could have a debilitating wound that would knock him out and leave his PC with a lasting injury, or he could take a wound which would give no penalties until a clock filled and he bled to death. I knew he was going to take the second option, but I did not see expect what was going to happen next. I'd figured that he would just push through another couple of exchanges and buy enough time for the ritual to finish or the other PCs to finish the mystic off. Instead, he turned to me and said "I'm going to grab onto this guy and then set off a grenade". That was honestly my favorite moment from my favorite session of any TTRPG I've ever run or played in. So glad to see that this game is going to have support for something similar.
In Epic Rap Battles of History, after "George RR Martin" points out to "JRR Tolkien" that his Game of Thrones is more realistic than Lord of the Rings because he kills main characters unexpectedly, Tolkien responds with this verse:
"We all know the world is full of chance and anarchy
So yes it's true to life for characters to die randomly
But news flash: the genre's called fantasy
It's meant to be unrealistic, you myopic manatee!"
That's one of the good ones
@krikorajemian8524
I'm sorry, I misread.
It’s a sick verse.
Darth Cheeto got burrrrrrned.
Screaming "DOOBLYDOOOOOOOOOOOOOO !!!!" every time James says "thing below the video"
What better way to say Merry Christmas to you all!
And a happy new year with a new RPG to look forward to!
Hell yeah, that sounds awesome! It’s heroic and tactical, sure, but what I like about this mechanic is that the player retains their turn when they can do something while still being in the critical state, close to death.
This video is an amazing example of how you gamify an awesome scene from one of the greatest movies of all time!
My very first character, my very first adventure. First moment of the first scene, GM introduces that we're going to [town] to help [dwarf]. Broken down wagon in the center of the road. My level 1 ranger (who would know not to do this, but I didn't) walks up to the abandoned wagon in the middle of the road, goblin archers sneak attacked, died before my character spoke a single word or took a single action. In hindsight it's shocking that I'm still playing -- that's the nightmare scenario for a new player.
Yeesh.
Good on you for sticking with the hobby.
Lost Mine? I've always held the belief that an encounter which could easily be a TPK machine if played tactically isn't exactly ideal for new players.
@@jhinpotion9230 you got it
When I first played (in like 1981), my first character opened the first door, triggering a pit trap, and died. But I was hooked.
It's pretty funny though, I wouldn't call it a nightmare since its all good stories.
"Thing below the video"??? Please, it's the Doobleydoo! (I may not have spelled it right.) :D
I love this concept. I can't wait to hear more.
This sounds really cool. It’s great to hear how your key words are always at the centre of decisions your making for the game. This really fits all 3
That moment with Aragorn and Boromir is so good, I literally have chills just listening James recounting it!
That sounds pretty cool. But hearing of Cormac's death does make me think that perhaps I generally prefer my fantasy un-heroic!
I realized I preferred non-heroic fantasy about three years ago, and OSRs like Knave have been so much fun.
I love the idea of being a nobody who has no backstory becoming someone who can play politics once they survive enough near-death horrors in the Sublime Below. (To be clear, that's not exactly Knave.)
I still am excited for the MCDM RPG because every once in a while, I want that huge tactical combat with lasers coming out of the wizard's fingers and a dwarf barbarian wrestling a sky giant.
Plus, I get to show my friends good game design
@@calicoixal I'm still enjoying watching the behind-the-scenes as the MCDM RPG is being built. And despite saying I generally prefer un-heroic, I may end up playing it at some point.
I'm back, on the other side of the video now.
Love what you guys came up with
Nice to see more of you James! Thanks for the video and great explanations!
Just got flee mortals as a gift
And now a new video! What a day
I really love this mechanic. This is basically the sort of thing i have been wanting for a long time and i think it really feels good
That's a pretty good workaround to the "going nova" phenomenon.
Personally, I wouldn't use resurrection in my heroic fantasy games. When employed in cinematic, heroic media, resurrection tends to be a surefire way to make a heroic sacrifice a speed bump at best and damaging to the narrative as a whole at worst. If anything, have a resurrected hero be an NPC because their role in the grander scheme of things has changed.
Hell Yeah! Love an MCDM video on the holiday
So excited for this game!
what about adding penalties to heroic sacrifices? When they are raised from the dead, their final act of taking a blow for their teammate cost them their arm. Throwing themselves in front of the evil mage's fireball has left them with an innate fear of fire. Something like this could prevent spamming of final acts with the comfort of resurrection.
Love the transition at the start 😅 so many D&D deaths feel pointless, I'm glad you're willing to change whatever tradition that doesn't suit you
Merry Christmas DMs
The rule sounds good, not sure the term unstable feels intuitive for it tho
Agreed - if it is bloodied for 50% maybe Bleeding Out for the under zero? (I know it doesnt quite make sense with lava/fire damage etc)
I play with people who name their characters the reverse spelling of their 1st name. There's a 5% chance they have any more character development. They don't deserve a Boromir moment & wouldn't do anything fun if they had it.
But do they deserve a Rimorob moment?
Merry Christmas!
very nice, just one question: if an unstable character receive healing, does i start from 0 or from the negative?
What a nice surprise gift. Merry Christmas MCDM!
Is there any penalty to ending combat while unstable, or what about starting combat while unstable? Maybe the adrenaline of the fight keeps you going until the fight ends, then you fall unconscious? Maybe your class resources slow down or stop generating if you start a new combat while unstable. Just thinking that this is something that your character needs to deal with, and soldiering on should be a big deal. Maybe the unstable condition is already enough. Just thoughts for your playtesting!
Negative numbers might make this not as beginner friendly, hopefully the way to track this on the character sheet solves this problem
I like it, I don’t agree with comments saying it’s simply more health because you are likely to damage yourself actually doing things when you are unstable, so it’s not ‘just more health’, the negative health functions differently. Also, what’s with the assumption that reviving is going to be some cost less, free thing?
More James!
I really like the vibe of these updates with James! A nice vibe of your own. And a fun way to get informed! Thanks MCDM team, have a merry Christmas while we're looking forward to your next update (and that patreon play-test package)
Based in having seen action movies, I feel like some, just some, villains should have the PC death system too. A million underlings die easy, but there's often that one righthand man or bbeg that you thought was down for the count but sneaks in one final shot as he's holding his gut to stop from bleeding out.
Love these design videos, but they make me sad in a specific way. Matt and James are very good at pointing out all the ways that this game of Tactical Cinematic Heroic Fantasy involves different design decisions from a Survival/Horror/Dungeon Crawl experience... with the result that I really want to see the same energy and finesse applied to the latter kind of game from MCDM as well! Alas, maybe someday.
There's the inverted nightmare version of Cormac's bleeding out that we see in modern d&d where the PCs are so insulated from death that *nothing* is treated as a threat. I think that's even worse than "death by dysentery" as someone described because the entire game turns into superman's world of cardboard no matter who or what is threatening the PCs
How would boromir’s death play out with this system? Once the battle is over wouldn’t he just sit around waiting for someone to heal you?
very elegant design
Im pretty sure this question was asked before but will there be a (in my case german) translation for the books? and if i got the PDFs now, will updates (and thus a possible translation) be paid for or will we have to buy the **insert language here** PDFs again? *Edits due to me not knowing how to format text on youtube
This sounds like it's inspired by Fabula Ultima.
Ha. Cormac (McCarthy) dies on The Road. Nice.
But in the MCDM game, he can now live until he hits the Blood(ied) Meridian.
I wanna be pooperscooper heroic though James. Let me have the pooperscooper!
Jokes aside, I love how the new/current system works and unstable is a cool condition to have.
James, James...I'm disappointed! You had the "Who to heal and who to Keal" (Doug Marcaida from Forged in Fire) Right there and you missed it!
Something tells me James and Matt are lacking in FiF knowledge
One of my least favorite parts of 5e is what I've come to call Yo-Yo Healing. The idea of our PCs dropping unconscious regularly with no real consequences (by design) isn't Heroic, or Cinematic, or Realistic, or... I'm not even sure what style it makes sense for tbh.
Great vid, Merry xmas everyone!
This got me thinking how much waiting on death saves sucks (im a forever DM, so never been in that position). Ive been inspired to come up with something similar for my 5e game, and interested if peoplethink its broken or not.
Basically, if you hit 0HP you enter a "gravely wounded" status, until you recieve healing or die. When gravely wounded, you speed if halved and taking any action other than to take a free action, hide, dash, or disengage will result in earning Death Point.
Every time you recieve damage whilst Gravely Wounded you lose no HP, but instead take a Death Point.
If, at the end of your turn, your death points are greater than your Prof bonus, you die.
Death points reset to 0 if you are healed above 0HP andlose the gravely wounded status.
What you think guys?
I’m sure I’m not first to point this out, and there is likely a different term for the BBEG. But they may be a directors creature that has a round to also dramatically push after reaching 0 HP. Think the eye of Sauron exploding and the tower collapsing (though obviously use that level of destruction with care). The other enemies and pissants, sure 0 hp they’re dead. But some enemies need their last attempt to thwart the heroes.
We had a 5e TPK where the DM asked us to roll a wisdom save on entering a room. ALL 5 of us failed and were frightened of the enemy, meaning the 3 melee characters could not reach the enemy to deal their best damage, and could only throw their limited ammo at disadvantage. The fight still lasted for about 4 rounds, and all 5 PC's failed their Wisdom save every turn and were unable to break the fear. Was just a case of tremendously bad luck.
Doesn't matter if you say things like, "THIS IS NO LONGER THE RULE." The internet is gonna internet on you.
Regarding the current implementation- How is this different from giving Player Characters more health and making them go Unstable at a certain health threshold? Did i miss something else in the video or is this essentially what it is? It sounds like a PC's real health is their health number + 50% more "negative" health.
In our 5e games we allow 5ft of prone movement when making saving throws, plus the ability to talk. Doesn’t necessarily lead to blaze of glory moments, but makes for much more dramatic and realistic death moments rather than not saying anything and bleeding out
I tried to use something similar as a house rule in D&D. It was kinda complex for the players but I really like this a lot. And yeah I jokingly called it "The Boromir Rule"
One TTRPG I like to play has heroic deaths as a mechanic, though it's a lot more loose and narrative than what it seems you guys are making. Basically, when your characters hit 0 HP, you either get knocked out of the fight, no attacking you or anything, or you get the option to do a heroic sacrifice if you meet certain conditions (such as having the main big bad in the fight, or it being related to your personal arc) where you permanently die, no revives, and get to do one cool thing in the narrative.
Short question: why had all the ressources different names? As far as i understand, every class can only build one ressource. That's seem a little bit confusing for new players. Maybe one generic name is better. And then it's the 'generic name' ressource, some classes may have powers to transfer their ressource to another PC.
This game is gonna be elite :D
Sounds like Cormac needs a new party if the other players left him to roll death saves on the floor for the hour long combat instead of trying to help. Also if failing 3 death saves means you instantly die with no chance for final words, then your DM is a dick.
My dragonborn cleric is literally named Kormak oh my god XD IS THIS AN OMEN?
Excellent video.
Just because you helped save a town does not mean you won't end up hewn with axes and found partially eaten. 😅 🤷🏽♂️
So, you just have 50% more hp, and only get a bonus action when you’re below 33%
I'm always looking to make heroic sacrifices in games and they so very rarely enable it. That "keep fighting while you're out" idea is perfect. It enables reckless heroic play if you're willing to die without just trivialising things. It doesn't necessarily always result in death, which means you can play that reckless character decision out and not necessarily know how it's going to go. And it even enables moments of impotence. A heroic raging against something you absolutely can't beat, which I also can find fun. Think about all the cinematic moments where a hero risks it all and doesn't win. They often even already know they aren't going to win, but they go down swinging regardless.
The one area I'd be worried about is if it started being treated as just extra health, but if its risky enough from the get go that most players aren't going to want to fight while in that state, and there are enough non risky options to take in that state that players won't just do it because they want to interact, then it's pretty much perfect.
Happy nondenominational holiday
This is cool, but special 'boss' enemies with narrative significance should absolutely also be able to use these rules.
I like it. As long as it doesn't fall into 5e's issue of heroes become ridiculously hard to kill
You seek to give us... A PERFECT DEATH!!!??? iykyk
I wouldn't mind the boss having the option of pushing themselves to leave a last threat or even _redemption_ in death by coming clean on a scheme.
As with any ttrpg, the person running the game can tweak the rules when needed to deliver the desired narrative.
Huzzah! A surprise present from MCDM. Merry Christmas!
Cool cool cool.
Merry Christmas! Engagement for the algorithm!
Cool to see my name in a video! Doesn't happen... Basically ever (even if it is mispronounced. Thats not your fault, nobody outside of Ireland gets it right).
I think I'm going to implement this in my 5e game.
Fun fact: Lava is far too hot for a human to survive landing in, even for a few seconds. You catch fire before touching it, probably pass out from fumes, and then flesh is gone quickly, followed by bones.
This is great. Love your videos, James
What a beautiful Chrimpmus Present
Nice.
Engagement for the Algor Gods
Another good video. Each of you having your own unique outro lines is a nice touch too. Well done, all around!
ooooh i like this
also opens the door for some real 'oh SHIT' moments for Directors that want big bads to be extra big bad
'...they are now Unstable'
'...they are WHAT?'
'oh SHIT oh FUCK'
I feel like calling it "The Thingy-ma-do" is a good compromise for James and us.
If i have max hp of 20 and i take 25 damage, does that drop me to 0 or to -5?
I had something close happen, my Druid was killed backward in one shot from the breath attack of a dragon during a run of Tomb of Annihilation. He had negative constitution so I was waiting for it to happen but I found it hilarious because it was a sneak attack from the dragon.
4:12 backlight briefly falls unconscious
This is great, Boromir definitely used these rules as he died :)
I can see them being great for a charismatic villain: will they keep on fighting as they hit zero? Will the Heroes continue attacking, risking taking more damage? Will there be *drumroll* negociations?
This seems like a great design, can't wait to try it :)
I like the story of the fighter with 1hp trying to break down the first door of a dungeon and dying.
I like this concept. I’ve always found “health” a bit of a wonky mechanic in any game. I think it always makes more sense to think of it in terms of stamina/energy. So you can run out and be helpless, but you’re not magically “fully healed” after one good nights sleep!!
What about nonlethal attacks against NPC's? Is it possible to pull your blows after the fact if you don't want to kill your target?
My first session of 5e was in Hoard of the Dragon Queen, and the first combat encounter was in the sally port tunnel against a swarm of rats. My monk was in the lead and the first attack roll against him was a crit and almost one-shot him. It would have a fairly ignoble death to be sure.
"Half or fewer" - I really appreciated that.
I’ve been having it where my players can spend their death saving throws for an action (singular). (Auto fail on the save)
Fabula Ultima has a similar mechanic for heroic sacrifice, but, it's also a system that doesn't have reserection magic(and the designer clarifies that).
I think res magic takes the point away from sacrifice.
Awesome! We introduced ‘bloodied’ into our games a while back and it’s awesome to be able to communicate with your teammates or know how low an enemy is with one “condition”.
There are a few monsters like you mentioned that go frenzied or something when you get bloodied and start changing their targets.
That's great idea! May i twke thisbidea to play with my friends my made up game?
I wouldn't cell anything anyway.
My PC's are able to sacrifice themselves to do something that is guaranteed to succeed. But is based on the class they have and what makes sense, they are approached by a deity and that will intervene in their last act. A martial is able to grapple or hold something, or fight long enough for everyone else to escape. A wizard is able tocast and hold as many concentration spells as they want, without being able to to lose concentration. A divine caster is able to heal and ressurect all their allies. a sorcerer is able to cast high damage aoe spells centered on themselves etc. And there is never any hope of ressucection because of the deal that was made
I like the idea of giving special enemies this mechanic as well! Like legendary resistances but cooler
What if I'm a director and want to use this mechanic for a boss or important rival? I think that sounds really cool 😅