These two: "omg ppl who want Steve banned are b*tches! ... but I wouldnt complain if he got banned hehe" like bruh, they want to look so professional to the outside but want him banned too
My one counterpoint to Void talking about Killjoy is that there is no reason to ban her because Riot Games are constantly looking to balance the characters in Valorant, and they will eventually nerf Killjoy. Nintendo is never gonna touch Ultimate.
I would only agree with your point if there was no counter play. Steve can be strong as long as there is counter play. Doesn’t mean it’s easy but that’s what top tier character is like.
While I agree, his point is about current metas and overcentralizing characters, whether they get nerfed in the future doesn’t change the fact that a meta shifts to surround a character, and many players will always choose the character with the best chance of winning, Pokemon unite is very similar with some of their releases and while characters get nerfed, they still take control of a whole meta first
Exactly, those games are expecting balance. And if people are so far up their ass on accepting the meta, than let's go to the next reason why having Steve being the best Meta character is ass. Sm4sh Bayo killed entrants and viewership due to touch of death combos that was easy to pick up by noname players. Or another more similar situation, Overwatch GOATS strategy was boring as fuck and ignored hype skilled aim character for tanky boring drawn out deathball gameplay, that was mostly w+m1. That killed OW's competive scene and snowballed down as later patches couldn't fix the damage done already. There's a reason this isn't an issue in Melee, Fox is the best well designed Meta character. Hype to watch with big advantages, but also very clear downsides.
Also Killjoy is only meta because no other sentinel is really that good. Cypher is only played in Europe, Chamber is only played on bind, Sage just sucks, and Deadlock is never used. When Chamber was meta no other sentinel was picked including Killjoy, so it honestly heavily depends on the meta.
I think it's absolutely possible for the smash community to put together a unified ruleset, but the people in the community who are organization-minded enough lack the resources to gather the TOs who run tournaments large enough to count for rankings all together to get them to hash out a ruleset that they can all agree to adopt.
That's why I am hoping for Luminosity to keep building their little empire lol. They are already making their own tournaments, maybe they will all have the same ruleset and we can get a NFL type of thing.
Biggest problem is that the TOs don't necessarily want a unified body doing that. A lot would just ignore these rules and run their own thing, most of them are independent anyway, they never relied on any other org to run their tournaments so one showing up and them not joining just means business as usual, nothing changes for them.
the midwest has a unified ruleset, and while thats an ultimately small part of the scene it's still a lot of different regions all agreeing to use the same ruleset for consistency
Every time I hear this take, I feel like it's important to remember that something like this existed in the Brawl days and early 2010s Melee too, and those councils included a lot of people who are now banned. And just last year, the Panda Cup ruined the ending of the season. Giving out this type of power in any capacity is inherently dangerous for the community. And what's harder than surpassing weak leadership is unifying Japan and NA and Europe. The Japanese players didn't want Meta Knight banned and they don't want Steve banned. But even if we could unify all these vast regions, I don't think it's a good idea. If people want to ban Steve at their tournaments, that's fine, and if they don't, I think that's also fine. Bayonetta killed Smash 4 though, so I am for banning Steve
In Melee, Cody said he believes Wobbling should be legal in top cut, basically saying that if you can make it to top 16, 32, 64, depending on the tournament, just off of your skill with the character, you can wobble. I don’t think something like this works with Steve but it kind of relates to what you said about how pgr players and players expected to top cut a major should have opinions valued more. When you have the experience and skill to make logical estimates on a character, and you are one of the people who can say a character pushes you or discourages you to improve more, that should be valued. That being said, I do think banning a character is perfectly fine in a local scene if it actually improves the quality and enjoyment of the events. At a local scene, you’re not playing to be the best in the world, and if a community agrees that the scene would be better without a character, I see no problem in that
Yeah I completely agree. Locals are just for having fun (while probably making a few bucks along the way), and if locals stop being fun because of a character, I wholeheartedly support banning that character.
@@biim3051 idk which game you’re talking about but I’ll clear it up anyways In ultimate fox isn’t even top 3, nor does he ruin many people’s enjoyment of the game due to being such a glass canon I assume you’re talking about melee so I’ll respond to that too, because it is MUCH different from Steve. In melee, Fox is not only the best player, but majority of the player base plays him, I believe over 25% of players to top cut a major last year played Fox, a crazy stat. That being said, Fox is clearly the best but is no where close to unfair, he’s still a “harder” character execution wise, and becomes more balanced the higher level you get. Fox isn’t at the point where he is playing his own game, and like Marss and VoiD said, it’s perfectly fine for a character to be the best in the game and to contribute a lot to the meta. Fox also has a very glass cannon archetype due to his stats, allowing someone who’s proficient with their character and their combos to beat Fox players. He’s overcentralizing but not in an unhealthy way, you’re not just going to pick up Fox and be beating top players in a week without improving much at all. If a local scene decides to ban Fox for the reason you said, I would fully condone it, but I don’t think it’s justifiable or healthy to the scene in any way. Most characters, as well as every viable character, has tools to deal with Fox at every level, and you don’t need to know about 80 characters to some extent to play Melee, nor does Fox completely change how you think about or play the game, he’s just clearly the best with a realistic exploitable weakness
@@biim3051 banning a character is a hard topic, no matter what you will be ruining someone’s enjoyment and contribution to the scene. By banning Steve, you sadly push away the Steve players so everyone else can enjoy, where by banning fox, you’re removing half your scene on average while taking away the incentive to practice and improve for everyone else
@@mysticsquirtle5109if don’t know/follow competitive Pokemon singles this will make no sense, but it sounds like melee fox is a lot like Landorus-Therian in recent generations. Almost like a necessary evil I guess
Why isn’t there an updated legal stage list focused on worst stages for Steve? FD could be planned on stages that don’t let him the shovel and instead wear out his axe or pickaxe. Yoshi Story is a decent counter pick that isn’t always legal. Battlefield could be played on a wood stage to wear out the axe mining to nerf his uptilt when it breaks.
@@Chaos.A The materials he mines are uniform, but the *tool* he mines with will vary based on what the stage is made of. A wooden one for example will mean all his mining has to use the axe on it, which would then nerf his up-tilt by making him spend durability on it by mining.
"Would you ask the general public about changing the rules of football?" Both the NBA and NFL have made significant rules changes to their games in the last few decades to favor offense over defense because it improves the marketability of their game to wide audiences.
@@secret333plays I don’t know why you’re so hyper focused on a “poll”. Marss says, and I quote “would they ask the general public about changing the rules of football? No that’s stupid, ask the professionals”. When again, they DO take public opinion into account when deciding rules, in addition to other aspects INCLUDING professional opinion.
I dunno if I agree with top players being the only ones who make decisions. Some top players are insanely talented but don’t always know anything about the game at all, they just pick up on habits and have good game awareness or reaction time significantly better than most people, and some just have their best interest in mind, like whether they have a good matchup for Steve or not. Also top players are a very VERY small group among smash players in general
They absolutely know about the game. You sound like a 2-2er compensating. What? Only thing they may lack is MU knowledge. Most top players reaction the is average and above average AT BEST
@@ErtM-vh5vs It’s very common to see top players not know basic frame data like jump squat, shield drop etc. and often say things that are factually incorrect. Things like character strength top players will often have completely opposing opinions on as well, which I think speaks to the fact they are equally as capable of fallacy as anyone else. Now I will say they typically are much more knowledgeable than lower level players. But I don’t think it’s fair to exclude mid level players from decisions, particularly when they make up most of the early bracket. Either way maybe chill out a bit, you don’t need to flip out when someone has a different opinion from you
Something important to add to the "someone has to be the best character and we shouldnt just ban them" discussion, is the reason that character is the best. Prior to FP2 the best characters were probably joker or Palutena. Those two characters are strong because they have an answer to ANY option their opponent chooses. They are high mobility characters and scale with the skill of the player piloting them. Those characters felt good to beat and play against because while they can beat ANY option they could really just beat 1 or 2 options at a time. Meaning that while they have the advantage, the opponent has every opportunity to choose the right option and win. This means that the meta revolved around player to player reads and execution. If you knew what your opponent was going to do, and you executed well, you would win. That is a healthy meta. Steve, on the other hand, is good because the tools of the character often beat MOST options you can choose. You can know that steve will uptilt, anvil or minecart, but even if you know, you often CANNOT punish the steve for doing the option you correctly predicted him to do. This is why you see so many anvils, minecarts or bairs from being punished by top 10 players. because much of the time, they CANNOT be punished either at all or not without great risk. That makes fighting steve feel unsatisfying and frustrating. And watching steve to be repetitive and slow. So yes, there will always be a character that is the best, but that character shouldnt be inherently unsatisfying to beat.
The issue with Steve is how fucked up you get when your execution is slightly off. So basically he is THE execution test which makes 90% of what you said wrong
@@rizvan1632its definitely both, they even touched on it when saying that you can’t punish with great risk. Neither of you even mentioned how he can build walls and platforms to limit your options even further.
That is just a lie. You can just space a good aerial and hit Steve since there are intervals and next, *aerials have priority over grounded moves*. Two. Anvil and minecart have PLENTY of counterplay. Reflectors are one. Two is spacing near the anvil with an aerial to the side since it only hits below. Minecart gets reflected, countered, aerial. You name it. Actual skill issue. Character is overrated. And you're slowly waking up to it.
My big problem with the "there's gotta be a best character in the game so might as well embrace it" attitude is that without steve there IS no best character in the game. right now, there is no debate who the best character is. take steve out of the equation and debates will rage until the end of time, which is the sign of a very healthily balanced game. and steve is ruining that. I personally don't have anything against steve, except for the fact that all he is doing is brewing the same divide and toxicity that bayo brought in smash 4, and I want ultimate to be fun again and not a constant sh!tstorm of people either complaining about or defending steve. that's why I support a full ban. whether he's genuinely broken or not is basically irrelevant, because regardless he is SO unhealthy for the ultimate scene and will end up destroying it just like bayo destroyed smash 4.
@@fangelobb2048 And I kinda hate it for steve players because they love playing the character and have invested a lot of time into it, but it's ultimately so much better for the smash scene and community as a whole if he's banned
@@reductosmash2483what about Kazuya? I know that there’s DI mixups you can do to get out of his combos ~20% of the time but seeing his ToD’s on platform stages like Hollow Bastion or Smashville is still terrifying. Though, I guess that’s what the players earn for practicing ferps tech and stuff of the sort! At least it’s still fun to watch
Idk. I just don't feel like he's as broken as Sm4sh Bayo or Brawl Metaknight. Those two characters were worthy of bans because they DOMINATED their games respectively. In Ultimate, Steve has no where as much as a gap as Sm4sh Bayo or Brawl Metaknight in terms of tier lists. In Sm4sh and Brawl, majority of top 8s at majors were Bayos and Metaknights. In Ultimate, you'd only find a few Steve players who make it top 32 or even 64 sometimes. Sure, Steve is the best character in the game, but he doesn't have much of a lead in terms of tier lists compared to other top tiers, and Steve doesn't overrun majors and super majors at all. (Tho, I dont really care what locals do.)
This is going to be another Bayo situation where most of the top players are aware of but attempt to justify a character being too oppressive. They'll do all sorts of mental gymnastics to justify it, then when the next Smash comes out all of them will admit it was an issue and should've been banned. I don't understand why the top players of the community just insist on pretending everything is fine but admit it wasn't after the game has died.
Steve isn’t even unanimously agreed to be the best like Bayo was in Sm4sh, I’ve seen plenty of people consider Sonic or Aegis over him even now. The issue with Bayo wasn’t her power level, it was her relative power level to the rest of the roster. Steve is insane but so is most of the top tier, just less so. The gap isn’t nearly as wide.
Marss literally said it which was so funny. He said “there’s always gonna be a best character regardless of the gap”. Like ok? But if the gap was smaller, the game would be more balanced and the players would have an better chance to create an interesting meta
The difference is that Steve isn't anywhere near as oppressive as Bayo was. Bayo was consistently showing up as half or more of top 8 whereas seeing more than maybe two Steves in top 8 is extremely uncommon.
I agree, top players are going to stay away from campaigning for the ban because they're all afraid of being blacklisted, or taking hits to their viewership/sponsorship, since any Steve players excluded (or even nerfed which isn't likely) will cry bloody murder and just claim their skills are being singled out and denied victories, thus suggesting that any wins without their presence aren't valid. The entire community isn't having this debate because of a bunch of whiners that just hate Steve; it's because the character 100% has balance issues due to abilities that work around the ruleset that no other character has access to. And many in the community are tired of gimmicks winning over player skill, myself included. The only players happy that tournaments get ended by mid air blocks on a stage where they don't exist are Steve fans and sorry, but the fanbase of a single character shouldn't run the entire operation.
Why not just use the in-game custom balance feature? The problem with Steve and Kazuya is how much damage they do. Nerf them slightly with that and bam, it’s done. PS.: I guess doing that also affects their combo routes and they get more combos but hey, you can mess those up, so it’s less reliable.
Bro I agree. I don't like removing a character, if they are in the game we should have to deal with them, but I don't mind using stuff within the game to nerf them
I think that tournaments with Steve banned will be worth less indirectly. Acola's presence alone can make the difference between whether a tournament is considered a supermajor or not, since he's worth 350 points on the lumirank system(for reference, a supermajor has to have a value of 5000 points or more, which is less than the equivalent of 20 Acolas, if I understand this system correctly).
Right, he'd probably feel a lot more strongly about it if he didn't happen to play one of the few characters who actually has a decent matchup against Steve. I play Falco, who also does well against Steve, and still can understand why to most characters he's still just far too oppressive.
@@shikarixox1195Almost as if he has counterplay lol. Dr Mario also does fine vs Steve. Infact. Reflector characters, projectile character, great sword characters, rushdown characters ALL do fine against steve and winning mus are plenty. The issue is people rather bury their head in the sand and pretend this top 10 at best char is indisputable top 1
As a competitor, I am fortunate enough to not have to fight Steve, but as a spectator I can’t stand watching him. I personally would be very happy to see Steve go. He does not play the same game as the other 80+ characters, he sucks to watch, and I do think he carries people. I get frustrated just watching this and seeing people outplay Steve and getting punished for it
Ngl as a spectator if this was about watching the game, I'd ban Steve, Palu and Aegis. I find all three of them tend to not be very exciting to watch. I would rather watch Sonic camp than watch Aegis because swordfighters in Ult are just very boring to watch for the most part. The lack of movement options doesn't really help with that
The reason I believe Steve should be banned has nothing to do with my personal tastes, viewer experience, or anything like that. I simply believe he is ridiculously overpowered and hurts the competitive integrity of the game. Both results and game theory support this claim. Currently, with excellent players like Onin and Acola, Steve is the favorite to win majors, but the crazy part is, these top players aren’t even close to doing all the optimal combos and punishes. Steve is already the best character in the game, and he has nowhere to go but up. Also, everyone seems to have forgotten about how much of a headache PMLG is for TO’s and players alike as it’s not easy to spot and not obvious. There IS a legitimate argument to Ban Steve for the competitive health of the game without being a “baby” or a “bully”.
Yeah like it’s just a fact he’s not healthy for the game n we are catering to people who decided to use the very last character that came out like there are 60plus characters in smash it’s like who did they play before Steve dropped I say it’s best we act like Steve never dropped n stop acting like they can’t find the character they were already using n allowing this broken character to run around just because there’s Steve players who like Steve isn’t a good enough reason to ruin the game for everyone else when he was literally the last character to drop
@@rezzy8984I'm not sure if you're trolling; Steve came out before Sephiroth, Aegis, Kazuya, and Sora. There was like a year of Steve being out before the last character addition.
I agree about the spectator vs player thing bc i know that im not knowledgeable enough about the game to make a reasonable ruleset for the game. It just doesnt make sense for spectators to have the ability to ban a character that a lot of people play.
sometimes i think the size of this community hurts our uniformity and decision making. I think we're just too big to get everyone on the same page. It's incredible the amount of foundation and uniformity other FGs have, probably cuz there's also less yearly events to communicate with each other so it's less to keep track of and conform.
Well, other FGs are also a lot less grassroots than Smash. They usually have better relationships with their publishers, and more sponsored events and leagues. Thats not to say they dont have grassroots events either, they do still have a lot usually, but its a lot less than something like Smash where EVERYTHING is grassroots. And thats the issue. Basically every smash major is run by a different grassroots group. They all have different views on the game, and if a central ruling was made, some would agree with it, but others wouldnt, leaving the community split. Its just a lot harder to get the many many many different tournaments and TOs together to actually come to a central decision. Its not necessarily impossible, but there is no big league or more central authority to look to for any guidance, since smash is 100% grassroots.
7:40. this is how I feel about this. I wish I knew that steve was gonna get banned before I dumped nearly 1000 hours into learning his entirely unique gameplay.
Once top 8's in tourneys start *consistently* having 3-4+ steves in it, that's when I think we should ban, since by that point it's clear that he's just too broken. Until then tho, I don't think we should ban him.
Steve is just busted saying there has to be a nr 1 doesnt make sense when steve is literally miles ahead of the rest. He is just busted no way around that. Also he is for most people neither enjoyable to watch nor play against. Why should you let him destroy the smash scene. The Players now maining steve who are good enough to win majors will adapt and play other characters. Also if you let steve unbanned you benefitting the minority over the majority which doesnt make sense either.
That literally the same argument that people like leffen was saying to Hungrybox back when he was the most hated player in melee bro can y'all just wait before banning a character because YOU don't like watching or playing against him so wait until doing this
@@foxshinehiyaa3933 i dont even mind steve personally. But most do and that steve is broken isnt even something to argue about. Even without all the new busted tech he was in a Tier of his own. It isnt healthy for a game from a competitive point of view if the best charakter has such a huge strenght gap between him and the others. We all saw what happened in Brawl with meta knight and in smash 4 with bayo and steve is in my opinion (if you factor in the hitstun cancel tech etc.) even worse then them. It would force more people off their mains to stay competitive then steve mains exis atm at tournaments. Also if the large majority of the community dislike watching / playing against him it could hurt the comp scene badly in terms of viewer numbers and that would mean less profit for tournament hosts, that means less tournaments and/or lower price pools. All in a game that pays non content creating pros way to less anyways. Also it isnt even only that many people dislike playing against and watchting him it would force many people to pick steve up and that would mean less diversity in charakters at tournaments and less low tier upsets.
How can you say “there has to be a best character” when you see every other “top 2 character” getting destroyed one way or another by regular high tiers. That’s not a real argument.
I think the people's opinion who only watch tournaments is more valid than you think. The bottom line is that the smash community needs sponsors. If the majority of spectators want him banned, that means less eyes will be watching Steve tournaments and you won't get as many sponsors. It's not just a top level thing, it's an entertaining thing.
The problem is spectators keep making this argument but spectatorship and tournament attendance is not declining, in some ways its actually gotten better. The only time there was a big viewership drop off was LMMM grands after acola eliminated Mute. Spectatorship is a strawman bc it’s literally not negative right now. Sponsorships are still somewhat coming in but are down in esports as a whole currently. You know what will reduce sponsorship though? If some of these Nintendo licensed tournaments such as Big House, Genesis, etc eventually get Nintendo disapproval because they decide to ban a whole character from appearing
But that has to be proven first. Back in Melee people used that same argument for a jigglypuff ban while the spectatorship was increasing during that time with HBox.
@@daedrascrolls people used to say snake was boring and killing viewership now everyone loves him. not saying the same will happen with steve, but you never know. also never understood the puff haters in melee, i always thought it was fun watching her
Cant have scrubs dictate a competitive scene. Good luck getting respect as a scene with mickey mouse rules. This is how you stay the "lil bro" of actual fgc communities. Now stop crying.
I feel like steve would be less of a problem if the rest of the meta wasn't also mostly terrible. Sonic, game and watch, dabuz, some samus, minmin and diddy. There's a lot of unfun to watch matches every tournament. If there was like 8 steves in top 64 but 56 fun characters (fox, falcon, DK, incineroar, roy, chrom, hero, etc) it would be less of a big deal. Additionally, unlike any modern game, this shit ain't getting patched so it's not like we just have to wait out the shit meta until the devs buff the fun characters/nerf the lame characters like would happen with the killjoy example (if they are even unfun to play against).
My eyes were truly open to this whole scenario when I went all Steve in a local I went to. I've been playing Steve basically since he came out and had never gone all in with him until recently. This local was fairly small, but it had some real good players. I go against this one guy in losers who I have been losing to time and time again, even with Steve. But this one time I changed my mindset and I won. I'm not kidding, the *ONE TIME* I won against him, he complained to the TO about banning Steve. Now, this isn't to say he wasn't filled with gamer rage. He definitely was, and it's understandable. But the fact the words "ban Steve" never left his mouth until I beat him with the character really helped me realize how stupid the whole argument is. The vast majority of the #BanSteve argument is fueled almost exclusively by gamer rage, rather than a genuine concern for the health of the competitive environment. Most people don't want Steve banned because he's actually harming the competition. Most people want him banned just because they don't like playing against him.
Well yeah he feels incredibly bad to lose against and meh to win against, I don't think he should be banned but I think that guy was reasonable in saying "hey can we agree not to run this character that makes everyone that plays against him not want to come to locals again" there's no real stakes there and everyone's trying to have fun. He shouldn't be banned in tourneys with pr though
I would like to say as someone who was in T2 valorant for a good while and got heavily into smash. The KJ debate is so different to steve. Killjoy is played in a team role as a lurk character, she is not overpowered in the slightest(yes she is strong but there are many characters better) but she is the best character in a lurking role. Also it is so hard to be a good lurker in valorant(and good anchor on sites) that KJ is one of the most sophisticated characters to play at top level. The problem people have at longer ranks with her is that she is hard to counter if you dont know the regular gameplan to counter her, or her general playstyle, but once you get to the higher ranks, she is nullified.
Well, even if I think the gap between Rob, aegis, or any tippy top tier & Steve is sizeable, I have to respect the opinion of the newly annointed BEST gamer in the World: voiD. He makes strong arguments for why character bans in smash aren't just not a good idea, but straight up a bad idea.
Rare L from Marss. Steve is top 1 in a way thats very alienating for viewers and players. Not like top tiers in other games that "play the game better" Steve plays a different game altogether. A game that's boring to watch. A game that's hard to care about. Which is why we're fine with Steve not being banned: we stopped caring.
Who's we? Even that recent poll that was used to banned the character in one tournament didn't even have 60% of votes for banning it. That leaves a LOT of people who don't want him banned.
A few ways I look at this. 1.) Asking about what steve mains think about a ban before we ban a character is a weird stance to take. Im sure in SF2, Akuma mains didnt want Akuma to be banned because he was their character that they won with. But the character was still very clearly broken and SHOULD have been banned. This stance kinda seems to argue against the idea of banning characters PERIOD, even if the character is wholly deserving of a ban. Now whether or not steve actually does deserve a ban is another question entirely, but the point being that, if he IS deserving of a ban, I dont think it matter what the people who play him say about it. The character should still be banned even if some people are going to struggle more to get results because of it. The competitive health of the game matters more. 2.) Weighting tournaments that ban steve lower than ones that dont only incentivizes tournaments to NEVER ban characters, because they get actively punished for doing so. Tournaments want their tournament to be worth lots of PR points because thats what draws in a decent chunk of high level talent. If you punish them by forcing their tournaments to be worth less by banning certain characters, then they arent going to ever want to experiment with banning characters since it will hurt their attendance. This means that even if a character is fully justifiably ban worthy, big majors WONT BAN THEM because they dont want to get punished by doing so. This just makes it nearly impossible to ban any character regardless of how broken or bad for the meta they are. So in my personal view, Tournaments that ban steve should be rated the same as the ones that dont. The best solution to this problem though would probably to be to get a big collection of all the main TOs of the various big majors, and try to decide on a universal ruling. At the very least for NA/Europe/Japan if not a global ruling. What matters the most right now is consistency in a ruleset. Either steve should just be banned everywhere, or nowhere. Maybe he's ban worthy, maybe he isnt, but we need to actually have that discussion, and a decision needs to actually be made by the majors which are running tournaments. However the decision is reached, the various majors need to agree to it, and it needs to be as universal as possible. Letting each major decide on their own isnt going anywhere, so a universal ruling just has to be made.
I banned Steve in my tournament because of pmlg, that’s it, cancelling hitstun is just unfair and that is the reason I banned him, I wouldn’t have banned him if he didn’t have that but it’s too easy to perform and gives him an unfair advantage which is my reasoning.
My question is if your character gets shit by steve and you win a ban steve major does it still count because its not like it didn't take any skill to win and cindarella runs do hapen where someone happens to avoid bad matchups, but is that the same as not having to worry/prep for a matchup at all because your bracked demon doesn't exist.
Marss says it's cowardly to drop out of a tournament because it didn't ban the character you think is absolutely busted, but I'm pretty sure part of the reason he doesn't do competitive like he used to was because of fp2. Correct me if I'm wrong, but if thats true, I don't see the difference my guy.
@@micahbarrus8406 yeah, but it showed just how bad air to air trades were in favor of Palu. She just gets to neutralize the option everyone other character absolutely despises
@@prismescape1887 Yes, but it was also Raflow just being a significantly better player than Big Chungus. Lets see him smack someone like Onin that easily. Probably wouldnt happen because a player like Onin or Acola would actually mix up after they kept getting bodied in the exact same situation every time. Raflow won that set easily because Big Chungus refused to adapt. And he isnt some top level steve or anything either. He's notable, but he isnt like massively top level. Raflow on the otherhand IS, as he's currently a top 3 palu in the world, and top 5 in Europe. Obviously significantly better players are going to beat significantly worse ones most of the time. But fight a steve at the same skill level and that match would have looked much different. Now that said, I do think palu does pretty good vs steve too. Probably even. But the point is, That set wasnt a good example of the actual match up as there was a clear disconnect in the skill level of the players involved.
@@eragon78 I'm talking about the specific option select of back air with it's invincibility. The triple back air vs minecart was a refusal to adapt, but still a showcase of the disadvantage state he's put in by Palu privilege in particular. The kinds of stuff that make the matchup even or winning.
@@prismescape1887 probably even but yea, I do agree that Palu's tools against steve are good. Bair is also pretty good at destroying steve's block wall since steve cant beat her bair through the wall. But yea, palu is good vs steve, and top players do agree on that too. I know Nairo was watching Raflow vs Big Chungus too with Larry on call, and he was also saying he thinks Palu is pretty solid against steve.
the argument is really fun vs competitive integrity, if u ban steve everyone besides the steve players has more fun, but in a competitive tournament scene people don't Only play for fun and to exclude ppl who want to be the best and will do anything to get there from the scene entirely for trying to be the best is clearly dumb. imo the community's pretty close to an ideal situation where tournaments themselves decide whether he's banned or not, and i think weighting steve-banned tourneys slightly lower would be the ideal compromise. players who value the fun of not playing against steve get the main thing they want at the cost of it meaning less competitively - might even be more motivated to go to more no-steve events to make up for the lower points, and competitive players who only want to be the best have their place to play and are potentially rewarded more for playing through unfun steve sets. it gets blurrier the larger the event, a local banning steve for the sake of fun is completely fair especially if it's typically steve dominated, but for a major or supermajor the stakes are a lot higher n the competition a lot more serious, so banning steve has a way bigger impact n a lot more arguments against
No, your performance against the other 70+ characters are more than valid and shouldn't be worth less. It is ridiculous to think removing a character with unfair competitive advantages only hurts the competitive scene. It is also beneficial to all the other players that explore the game in other ways. Further more, the audience and their enjoyment does matter, as the are the ones that become competitors and funders to the community. Keeping around unpopular characters that they don't want to see will hurt the community in other ways that is bad for competition.
They shouldve banned bayo way earlier and because the didnt smash 4 died earlier than it shouldve. Not a single steve main was ANYTHING before steve. Not a single top 8 made by any of them. Funniky enough exactly the same with bayo. We need to start callikg a spade a spade. Bayo mains were nothing before bayo and we shoukdve banned bayo earlier and not a single steve main was anything before steve. Does this not tell you this character is overtuned that nobodies who won nothing before can win now. Its not even a case of not wanting to play vs it its a case that for the longevity of the game for both spectators and players it's best hes banned because an overtuned aggressive character is one thing but an overtuned camper at the top kills the game
Sure, but the question is how fast Sm4sh died. Cause so far after Ultimate's last patch, it's still alive. I don't think Steve players are as present and overwhelmingly as Bayo players in Sm4sh were.
In my opinion, it is not the fact that Acola won Super Smash Con 2023, it is the fact that Hbox heavily advocates a Steve ban while hosting his Coinbox Series why so many TOs decide to ban Steve! Hbox has always been that lame Jigglypuff player with no real voice
Honestly I think the Regen TO's knew the risks of banning Steve, regardless of whether the verdict had been decided, when they were organizing the tournament.
Steve’s kit is too good and too god awful to play against or watch. Even when viewing smash as a sport, sports are supposed to be fun and people compete because they enjoy the game. I’m all for banning Steve. There are 80+ other characters they can compete with it’s not like we’re excommunicating the players.
What I think makes the least sense is that when voting about baning steve or not, people who only watch competitive but dont participate shouldnt even participate, not enjoying watching a character isnt a reason
"There has to be a best character reguardless of the gap" has gotta be the worst take Ive heard a smash player have in years. I dont care if you want to ban steve or not this is just stupid
I feel like my biggest problem with Steve is he’s SUCH an anti fun character, playing against him is tedious, boring, not exciting. He’s so much better than any other character that he truly does carry all his players. VOiDs point about if bowser jr was banned but that’s not a fair comparison because bowser jr is objectively worse than Steve. And with the kj point, she is good but she’s not anti fun, she’s not anti meta, she conforms with the general gameplay of valorant. I do this it’s rough for Steve players but if they actually like the game enough they will pick a new character, if they are only playing smash because they can cheese wins with Steve than we don’t really need those players anyway.
what if we weighted steve banned majors both the same and less than no-ban tournaments and just have 2 rankings at the end, one with weighted and one with unweighted steve-ban majors.
No, that's a bad idea. If there are two ranking people will just view whichever one they want as valid. Which will only cause more problems. People already get pissy over one ranking
I try not to comment too much anymore (especially about Steve) so I will skip Steve entirely to say say this real quick: *We. Need. A. Universal. Set. Of. Rules.* Edit: okay, now for Steve... Steve isn't hurting viewership as much as people say (or even at all in most cases)... I'm tired of people acting like Steve is dwindling down viewership by a huge margin. I watch streams and sometimes the viewership goes up when Steve is on screen lol. This whole argument has little merit. Until we see actual evidence of Steve hurting viewership, I'm not for banning him based on that. I don't care if YOU don't want to watch him. If your favorite player is Marss, would you stop watching him just because he fights Onin's Steve? No, you wouldn't.
I’ve been thinking about the Steve (and sometimes Kazuya) bans since the PMLG tech thing caused these controversies, and it’s obvious to everyone that every player invested insane amounts of time into each of their characters. That being said, it’s unfair to invalidate all the hours Steve mains grinded into the character. As Marss mentioned, it’s cowardly to ban any character. As a casual who loves meme characters like Bowser, Falcon, and Ganon, matching into bad matchups (which is most matchups) sucks, but I try and sometimes impress myself when I don’t suck. Don’t ban anyone
You really can’t compare Steve to let’s say. . . Akuma or Geese in T7 It’s still exciting to watch Akuma or Geese “ToD” combo someone with only one pixel of health w/ rage (plus both characters are DIFFICULT to master) Watching Steve play creative mode In Minecraft, while also doing ridiculous combos that have multiple different routes while up a stock, and having the option to play aggressively or camp is just sad and corny lol
@@jaydenhohman2590 Reading comprehension not your forte? 1. I never said Steve was unbeatable 2. I never advocated Steve to be banned 3. All I said was. . . Steve was corny lol
@@jaydenhohman2590 I’m a Smash player, and an FGC player in general. . . Where in MY comment did I say I hate the game or hate everything about the game? Don’t worry, I’ll wait lol
I think it's important that we HAVE banned Steve so we can get a grasp on what that means for the game, it's just whether that initial decision should be continued or if we should unban Steve for many of the reasons they said
I’m hella late but funny how they say look at the professionals while the nba makes a rule to not have 2 star players out at the same time 💀 yes the audience matters lol especially for longevity of the game.
13:53 my man SO DID THOSE PEOPLE NOT IN TOP 32. They paid their entrance fee. They got hotels and traveled. AND THEY ARE THE MAJORITY, but your opinion on what should and shouldn’t be a rule is right relegated to you the select few who made it to the top? Horrible take. Y’all know Olympic rules and collegiate rule sets aren’t made by Olympic medalists right? It’s the people on the ground playing day in and day out.
"Spectator opinions don't matter because we're the ones here playing and spent money to be here." Well, dude, spectators are the ones watching and donating and getting the tournament views and making it money so that the tournament can happen in the first place, so at the very least the opinions matter equally. You need us way more than we need you.
as someone who plays steve not because he's good, but because I've played minecraft since 2014 and I love ma boi, I do find people like this quite annoying.
none of our opinions should matter thats crazy only the pro players and the TOs opinions should matter frfr i should not be able to vote on a tournaments rules thats crazy haha
Congrats to VoiD for winning best gamer in the world btw, super big props
Marss collabing with the World's Greatest Gamer is very cool to see :)
Beat me to it 😅
@@yassin528 aww man I am sorry dude 😅
I LOVE MARSS VIDEOS LONGER THAN TEN MINUTES RAHHHH
GRAAAAAHHHHHH
It’s great YAHHHHH
These two: "omg ppl who want Steve banned are b*tches! ... but I wouldnt complain if he got banned hehe" like bruh, they want to look so professional to the outside but want him banned too
Props to your editor for splicing in both your facecams whenever you guys spoke, was a super nice touch
You should deff do more of these type of videos. You're insights are valid and the humor you bring makes it fun to listen to imo
My one counterpoint to Void talking about Killjoy is that there is no reason to ban her because Riot Games are constantly looking to balance the characters in Valorant, and they will eventually nerf Killjoy. Nintendo is never gonna touch Ultimate.
True
I would only agree with your point if there was no counter play. Steve can be strong as long as there is counter play. Doesn’t mean it’s easy but that’s what top tier character is like.
While I agree, his point is about current metas and overcentralizing characters, whether they get nerfed in the future doesn’t change the fact that a meta shifts to surround a character, and many players will always choose the character with the best chance of winning, Pokemon unite is very similar with some of their releases and while characters get nerfed, they still take control of a whole meta first
Exactly, those games are expecting balance. And if people are so far up their ass on accepting the meta, than let's go to the next reason why having Steve being the best Meta character is ass. Sm4sh Bayo killed entrants and viewership due to touch of death combos that was easy to pick up by noname players. Or another more similar situation, Overwatch GOATS strategy was boring as fuck and ignored hype skilled aim character for tanky boring drawn out deathball gameplay, that was mostly w+m1. That killed OW's competive scene and snowballed down as later patches couldn't fix the damage done already. There's a reason this isn't an issue in Melee, Fox is the best well designed Meta character. Hype to watch with big advantages, but also very clear downsides.
Also Killjoy is only meta because no other sentinel is really that good. Cypher is only played in Europe, Chamber is only played on bind, Sage just sucks, and Deadlock is never used. When Chamber was meta no other sentinel was picked including Killjoy, so it honestly heavily depends on the meta.
Marss calling people btch made after barely beating onin is exactly how i expect rofl
"barely beat" did he beat em or not. Lol. And the dude doesn't even grind ult anymore. Yet managed to beat the second best Steve. You're a troll.
I think it's absolutely possible for the smash community to put together a unified ruleset, but the people in the community who are organization-minded enough lack the resources to gather the TOs who run tournaments large enough to count for rankings all together to get them to hash out a ruleset that they can all agree to adopt.
That's why I am hoping for Luminosity to keep building their little empire lol. They are already making their own tournaments, maybe they will all have the same ruleset and we can get a NFL type of thing.
Biggest problem is that the TOs don't necessarily want a unified body doing that. A lot would just ignore these rules and run their own thing, most of them are independent anyway, they never relied on any other org to run their tournaments so one showing up and them not joining just means business as usual, nothing changes for them.
the midwest has a unified ruleset, and while thats an ultimately small part of the scene it's still a lot of different regions all agreeing to use the same ruleset for consistency
Every time I hear this take, I feel like it's important to remember that something like this existed in the Brawl days and early 2010s Melee too, and those councils included a lot of people who are now banned. And just last year, the Panda Cup ruined the ending of the season. Giving out this type of power in any capacity is inherently dangerous for the community. And what's harder than surpassing weak leadership is unifying Japan and NA and Europe. The Japanese players didn't want Meta Knight banned and they don't want Steve banned. But even if we could unify all these vast regions, I don't think it's a good idea. If people want to ban Steve at their tournaments, that's fine, and if they don't, I think that's also fine. Bayonetta killed Smash 4 though, so I am for banning Steve
@@drainstorM11 it was tristate that didnt want mk banned, not japan
In Melee, Cody said he believes Wobbling should be legal in top cut, basically saying that if you can make it to top 16, 32, 64, depending on the tournament, just off of your skill with the character, you can wobble. I don’t think something like this works with Steve but it kind of relates to what you said about how pgr players and players expected to top cut a major should have opinions valued more. When you have the experience and skill to make logical estimates on a character, and you are one of the people who can say a character pushes you or discourages you to improve more, that should be valued.
That being said, I do think banning a character is perfectly fine in a local scene if it actually improves the quality and enjoyment of the events. At a local scene, you’re not playing to be the best in the world, and if a community agrees that the scene would be better without a character, I see no problem in that
Yeah I completely agree. Locals are just for having fun (while probably making a few bucks along the way), and if locals stop being fun because of a character, I wholeheartedly support banning that character.
if we go by this logic then fox should be banned in locals too for being just too broken compared to the rest of the cast
@@biim3051 idk which game you’re talking about but I’ll clear it up anyways
In ultimate fox isn’t even top 3, nor does he ruin many people’s enjoyment of the game due to being such a glass canon
I assume you’re talking about melee so I’ll respond to that too, because it is MUCH different from Steve. In melee, Fox is not only the best player, but majority of the player base plays him, I believe over 25% of players to top cut a major last year played Fox, a crazy stat. That being said, Fox is clearly the best but is no where close to unfair, he’s still a “harder” character execution wise, and becomes more balanced the higher level you get. Fox isn’t at the point where he is playing his own game, and like Marss and VoiD said, it’s perfectly fine for a character to be the best in the game and to contribute a lot to the meta.
Fox also has a very glass cannon archetype due to his stats, allowing someone who’s proficient with their character and their combos to beat Fox players. He’s overcentralizing but not in an unhealthy way, you’re not just going to pick up Fox and be beating top players in a week without improving much at all. If a local scene decides to ban Fox for the reason you said, I would fully condone it, but I don’t think it’s justifiable or healthy to the scene in any way. Most characters, as well as every viable character, has tools to deal with Fox at every level, and you don’t need to know about 80 characters to some extent to play Melee, nor does Fox completely change how you think about or play the game, he’s just clearly the best with a realistic exploitable weakness
@@biim3051 banning a character is a hard topic, no matter what you will be ruining someone’s enjoyment and contribution to the scene. By banning Steve, you sadly push away the Steve players so everyone else can enjoy, where by banning fox, you’re removing half your scene on average while taking away the incentive to practice and improve for everyone else
@@mysticsquirtle5109if don’t know/follow competitive Pokemon singles this will make no sense, but it sounds like melee fox is a lot like Landorus-Therian in recent generations. Almost like a necessary evil I guess
Why isn’t there an updated legal stage list focused on worst stages for Steve? FD could be planned on stages that don’t let him the shovel and instead wear out his axe or pickaxe. Yoshi Story is a decent counter pick that isn’t always legal. Battlefield could be played on a wood stage to wear out the axe mining to nerf his uptilt when it breaks.
That's actually a pretty solid idea. Take some steps to indirectly nerf him.
Don't omega and battlefield form stages use a uniform mining material?
I don't think you can just pick "a wooden battlefield"
@@Chaos.A The materials he mines are uniform, but the *tool* he mines with will vary based on what the stage is made of.
A wooden one for example will mean all his mining has to use the axe on it, which would then nerf his up-tilt by making him spend durability on it by mining.
I do think the players should have last word, but they have proven to have terrible standards for not doing it
Steve sucks because you know what his next move is going to be and yet seems like there no answer to it.
Have you tried timing an aerial? Lol
@@ErtM-vh5vs yes
The two semi-retired players seem to be the most on board with keeping Steve legal.
Meanwhile, people who deal with him on a weekly basis; "HELP!"
get good lol😂
True, they don't really have any stakes in tournament health.
@@alexmartin6561nah there are people still playing who are in the "I don't care camp"
@@illford I think that makes up the majority of pro players. Majority don't care if steve is banned or not.
"Would you ask the general public about changing the rules of football?"
Both the NBA and NFL have made significant rules changes to their games in the last few decades to favor offense over defense because it improves the marketability of their game to wide audiences.
But they didn't poll the audience lol
@@secret333plays I don’t know why you’re so hyper focused on a “poll”.
Marss says, and I quote “would they ask the general public about changing the rules of football? No that’s stupid, ask the professionals”. When again, they DO take public opinion into account when deciding rules, in addition to other aspects INCLUDING professional opinion.
I dunno if I agree with top players being the only ones who make decisions. Some top players are insanely talented but don’t always know anything about the game at all, they just pick up on habits and have good game awareness or reaction time significantly better than most people, and some just have their best interest in mind, like whether they have a good matchup for Steve or not. Also top players are a very VERY small group among smash players in general
They absolutely know about the game. You sound like a 2-2er compensating. What? Only thing they may lack is MU knowledge. Most top players reaction the is average and above average AT BEST
@@ErtM-vh5vs It’s very common to see top players not know basic frame data like jump squat, shield drop etc. and often say things that are factually incorrect. Things like character strength top players will often have completely opposing opinions on as well, which I think speaks to the fact they are equally as capable of fallacy as anyone else. Now I will say they typically are much more knowledgeable than lower level players. But I don’t think it’s fair to exclude mid level players from decisions, particularly when they make up most of the early bracket. Either way maybe chill out a bit, you don’t need to flip out when someone has a different opinion from you
Something important to add to the "someone has to be the best character and we shouldnt just ban them" discussion, is the reason that character is the best. Prior to FP2 the best characters were probably joker or Palutena. Those two characters are strong because they have an answer to ANY option their opponent chooses. They are high mobility characters and scale with the skill of the player piloting them. Those characters felt good to beat and play against because while they can beat ANY option they could really just beat 1 or 2 options at a time. Meaning that while they have the advantage, the opponent has every opportunity to choose the right option and win. This means that the meta revolved around player to player reads and execution. If you knew what your opponent was going to do, and you executed well, you would win. That is a healthy meta. Steve, on the other hand, is good because the tools of the character often beat MOST options you can choose. You can know that steve will uptilt, anvil or minecart, but even if you know, you often CANNOT punish the steve for doing the option you correctly predicted him to do. This is why you see so many anvils, minecarts or bairs from being punished by top 10 players. because much of the time, they CANNOT be punished either at all or not without great risk. That makes fighting steve feel unsatisfying and frustrating. And watching steve to be repetitive and slow. So yes, there will always be a character that is the best, but that character shouldnt be inherently unsatisfying to beat.
The issue with Steve is how fucked up you get when your execution is slightly off. So basically he is THE execution test which makes 90% of what you said wrong
@@rizvan1632its definitely both, they even touched on it when saying that you can’t punish with great risk. Neither of you even mentioned how he can build walls and platforms to limit your options even further.
That is just a lie. You can just space a good aerial and hit Steve since there are intervals and next, *aerials have priority over grounded moves*.
Two. Anvil and minecart have PLENTY of counterplay. Reflectors are one. Two is spacing near the anvil with an aerial to the side since it only hits below. Minecart gets reflected, countered, aerial. You name it. Actual skill issue. Character is overrated. And you're slowly waking up to it.
@@connorkenny6912you're just bad at spacing buddy. Why don't you place hitboxes on your own space instead of trying to invade Steve's.
S tier copypasta im stealing that lmao @@ErtM-vh5vs
My big problem with the "there's gotta be a best character in the game so might as well embrace it" attitude is that without steve there IS no best character in the game. right now, there is no debate who the best character is. take steve out of the equation and debates will rage until the end of time, which is the sign of a very healthily balanced game. and steve is ruining that. I personally don't have anything against steve, except for the fact that all he is doing is brewing the same divide and toxicity that bayo brought in smash 4, and I want ultimate to be fun again and not a constant sh!tstorm of people either complaining about or defending steve. that's why I support a full ban. whether he's genuinely broken or not is basically irrelevant, because regardless he is SO unhealthy for the ultimate scene and will end up destroying it just like bayo destroyed smash 4.
Agreed 100%
@@fangelobb2048 And I kinda hate it for steve players because they love playing the character and have invested a lot of time into it, but it's ultimately so much better for the smash scene and community as a whole if he's banned
@@reductosmash2483 Especially with regards to the longevity of the game, particularly if a smash ultimate deluxe never comes out.
@@reductosmash2483what about Kazuya? I know that there’s DI mixups you can do to get out of his combos ~20% of the time but seeing his ToD’s on platform stages like Hollow Bastion or Smashville is still terrifying. Though, I guess that’s what the players earn for practicing ferps tech and stuff of the sort! At least it’s still fun to watch
Idk. I just don't feel like he's as broken as Sm4sh Bayo or Brawl Metaknight. Those two characters were worthy of bans because they DOMINATED their games respectively. In Ultimate, Steve has no where as much as a gap as Sm4sh Bayo or Brawl Metaknight in terms of tier lists. In Sm4sh and Brawl, majority of top 8s at majors were Bayos and Metaknights. In Ultimate, you'd only find a few Steve players who make it top 32 or even 64 sometimes.
Sure, Steve is the best character in the game, but he doesn't have much of a lead in terms of tier lists compared to other top tiers, and Steve doesn't overrun majors and super majors at all.
(Tho, I dont really care what locals do.)
I don’t understand why there is so much hesitation to ban Steve bruh
This is going to be another Bayo situation where most of the top players are aware of but attempt to justify a character being too oppressive. They'll do all sorts of mental gymnastics to justify it, then when the next Smash comes out all of them will admit it was an issue and should've been banned. I don't understand why the top players of the community just insist on pretending everything is fine but admit it wasn't after the game has died.
Steve isn't even as oppressive and broken as sm4sh bayo lol. It isn't even close
Steve isn’t even unanimously agreed to be the best like Bayo was in Sm4sh, I’ve seen plenty of people consider Sonic or Aegis over him even now. The issue with Bayo wasn’t her power level, it was her relative power level to the rest of the roster. Steve is insane but so is most of the top tier, just less so. The gap isn’t nearly as wide.
Marss literally said it which was so funny. He said “there’s always gonna be a best character regardless of the gap”. Like ok? But if the gap was smaller, the game would be more balanced and the players would have an better chance to create an interesting meta
The difference is that Steve isn't anywhere near as oppressive as Bayo was. Bayo was consistently showing up as half or more of top 8 whereas seeing more than maybe two Steves in top 8 is extremely uncommon.
I agree, top players are going to stay away from campaigning for the ban because they're all afraid of being blacklisted, or taking hits to their viewership/sponsorship, since any Steve players excluded (or even nerfed which isn't likely) will cry bloody murder and just claim their skills are being singled out and denied victories, thus suggesting that any wins without their presence aren't valid. The entire community isn't having this debate because of a bunch of whiners that just hate Steve; it's because the character 100% has balance issues due to abilities that work around the ruleset that no other character has access to. And many in the community are tired of gimmicks winning over player skill, myself included. The only players happy that tournaments get ended by mid air blocks on a stage where they don't exist are Steve fans and sorry, but the fanbase of a single character shouldn't run the entire operation.
Why not just use the in-game custom balance feature? The problem with Steve and Kazuya is how much damage they do. Nerf them slightly with that and bam, it’s done. PS.: I guess doing that also affects their combo routes and they get more combos but hey, you can mess those up, so it’s less reliable.
I'm still wondering why nobody tried this yet lol
Yep, even Maister made a video saying the same thing.
Bro I agree. I don't like removing a character, if they are in the game we should have to deal with them, but I don't mind using stuff within the game to nerf them
You're right, Steve banned Majors should be weighted MORE since they're inherently more competitively healthy.
Marss needs a cam as good as Void's.
I think that tournaments with Steve banned will be worth less indirectly. Acola's presence alone can make the difference between whether a tournament is considered a supermajor or not, since he's worth 350 points on the lumirank system(for reference, a supermajor has to have a value of 5000 points or more, which is less than the equivalent of 20 Acolas, if I understand this system correctly).
This video is heavily inspired by Marss’s Onin win lol
Right, he'd probably feel a lot more strongly about it if he didn't happen to play one of the few characters who actually has a decent matchup against Steve. I play Falco, who also does well against Steve, and still can understand why to most characters he's still just far too oppressive.
I mean Onin's results aren't what they used to be, acola is the only dominant Steve these days
@@shikarixox1195Almost as if he has counterplay lol. Dr Mario also does fine vs Steve. Infact. Reflector characters, projectile character, great sword characters, rushdown characters ALL do fine against steve and winning mus are plenty. The issue is people rather bury their head in the sand and pretend this top 10 at best char is indisputable top 1
As a competitor, I am fortunate enough to not have to fight Steve, but as a spectator I can’t stand watching him. I personally would be very happy to see Steve go. He does not play the same game as the other 80+ characters, he sucks to watch, and I do think he carries people. I get frustrated just watching this and seeing people outplay Steve and getting punished for it
Ngl as a spectator if this was about watching the game, I'd ban Steve, Palu and Aegis. I find all three of them tend to not be very exciting to watch. I would rather watch Sonic camp than watch Aegis because swordfighters in Ult are just very boring to watch for the most part. The lack of movement options doesn't really help with that
The reason I believe Steve should be banned has nothing to do with my personal tastes, viewer experience, or anything like that. I simply believe he is ridiculously overpowered and hurts the competitive integrity of the game. Both results and game theory support this claim. Currently, with excellent players like Onin and Acola, Steve is the favorite to win majors, but the crazy part is, these top players aren’t even close to doing all the optimal combos and punishes. Steve is already the best character in the game, and he has nowhere to go but up. Also, everyone seems to have forgotten about how much of a headache PMLG is for TO’s and players alike as it’s not easy to spot and not obvious. There IS a legitimate argument to Ban Steve for the competitive health of the game without being a “baby” or a “bully”.
Yeah like it’s just a fact he’s not healthy for the game n we are catering to people who decided to use the very last character that came out like there are 60plus characters in smash it’s like who did they play before Steve dropped I say it’s best we act like Steve never dropped n stop acting like they can’t find the character they were already using n allowing this broken character to run around just because there’s Steve players who like Steve isn’t a good enough reason to ruin the game for everyone else when he was literally the last character to drop
Pmlg was so exaggerated no one is even using the tech
@@andyduhh4278 Exactly. I dont see any good Steve's using it. Probably cause it's just not optimal.
@@rezzy8984I'm not sure if you're trolling; Steve came out before Sephiroth, Aegis, Kazuya, and Sora. There was like a year of Steve being out before the last character addition.
@@rezzy8984Steve was not the last bro. You can't be this dumb about it. Like I get your point but at least give the correct info
I agree about the spectator vs player thing bc i know that im not knowledgeable enough about the game to make a reasonable ruleset for the game. It just doesnt make sense for spectators to have the ability to ban a character that a lot of people play.
sometimes i think the size of this community hurts our uniformity and decision making. I think we're just too big to get everyone on the same page. It's incredible the amount of foundation and uniformity other FGs have, probably cuz there's also less yearly events to communicate with each other so it's less to keep track of and conform.
Well, other FGs are also a lot less grassroots than Smash. They usually have better relationships with their publishers, and more sponsored events and leagues. Thats not to say they dont have grassroots events either, they do still have a lot usually, but its a lot less than something like Smash where EVERYTHING is grassroots.
And thats the issue. Basically every smash major is run by a different grassroots group. They all have different views on the game, and if a central ruling was made, some would agree with it, but others wouldnt, leaving the community split.
Its just a lot harder to get the many many many different tournaments and TOs together to actually come to a central decision. Its not necessarily impossible, but there is no big league or more central authority to look to for any guidance, since smash is 100% grassroots.
How cool that Marss got to make a video with the literal greatest gamer in the world
Ban goalkeepers in football, they are too op!
9:15 it's crazy Marss said this, and then Glutonny just won a super major with solo Wario this past weekend.
built diff
This thumbnail makes Mars look like a tired smash veteran and void a new kid on the street
History really does repeat itself
Except Steve is nowhere to be seen in top 8 excluding acola. Cry.
7:40. this is how I feel about this. I wish I knew that steve was gonna get banned before I dumped nearly 1000 hours into learning his entirely unique gameplay.
They really need to keep doing balance updates for at least a year after releasing all DLC characters next game.
We have the ability to patch it ourselves, but can't agree on a universal set of patches
They aren’t cowards. The cowards are the people that play Steve, and smash 4 Bayo.
they play steve because they find steve fun
Once top 8's in tourneys start *consistently* having 3-4+ steves in it, that's when I think we should ban, since by that point it's clear that he's just too broken. Until then tho, I don't think we should ban him.
They never will lol. Character is slow and almost strictly defensive. Still a top tier but not indisputable top 1
13:43 what's the song in the back?
This (and many more reasons) is why in my dreams, the world adopts a modded versions of Smash (like project Beta) as the tournament version of Smash.
Steve is just busted saying there has to be a nr 1 doesnt make sense when steve is literally miles ahead of the rest. He is just busted no way around that. Also he is for most people neither enjoyable to watch nor play against. Why should you let him destroy the smash scene. The Players now maining steve who are good enough to win majors will adapt and play other characters. Also if you let steve unbanned you benefitting the minority over the majority which doesnt make sense either.
Fr, who knew Marss and Void were braindead
That literally the same argument that people like leffen was saying to Hungrybox back when he was the most hated player in melee bro can y'all just wait before banning a character because YOU don't like watching or playing against him so wait until doing this
What the heck is lil bro trying to say@@foxshinehiyaa3933
@@foxshinehiyaa3933 i dont even mind steve personally. But most do and that steve is broken isnt even something to argue about. Even without all the new busted tech he was in a Tier of his own. It isnt healthy for a game from a competitive point of view if the best charakter has such a huge strenght gap between him and the others. We all saw what happened in Brawl with meta knight and in smash 4 with bayo and steve is in my opinion (if you factor in the hitstun cancel tech etc.) even worse then them. It would force more people off their mains to stay competitive then steve mains exis atm at tournaments. Also if the large majority of the community dislike watching / playing against him it could hurt the comp scene badly in terms of viewer numbers and that would mean less profit for tournament hosts, that means less tournaments and/or lower price pools. All in a game that pays non content creating pros way to less anyways. Also it isnt even only that many people dislike playing against and watchting him it would force many people to pick steve up and that would mean less diversity in charakters at tournaments and less low tier upsets.
Marss video more than 3 seconds long… it’s a miracle
I hear music from Divinity OS2, therefore I know this man is a real ass gamer
"There has to be a best character in the game, regardless of how big the gap is" bruh... wtf
How can you say “there has to be a best character” when you see every other “top 2 character” getting destroyed one way or another by regular high tiers. That’s not a real argument.
Tbf most Steves also get destroyed by people playing regular high tiers
What is the outro song? Its familiar to me but i just don't remember where's from
Damn we went from boycotting be cause Meta Knight was banned to boycotting because Steve isn't lol
VoiD looks like he’s been crying
3:33
Love the Live A Live music choice
I think the people's opinion who only watch tournaments is more valid than you think. The bottom line is that the smash community needs sponsors. If the majority of spectators want him banned, that means less eyes will be watching Steve tournaments and you won't get as many sponsors. It's not just a top level thing, it's an entertaining thing.
The problem is spectators keep making this argument but spectatorship and tournament attendance is not declining, in some ways its actually gotten better. The only time there was a big viewership drop off was LMMM grands after acola eliminated Mute.
Spectatorship is a strawman bc it’s literally not negative right now. Sponsorships are still somewhat coming in but are down in esports as a whole currently. You know what will reduce sponsorship though? If some of these Nintendo licensed tournaments such as Big House, Genesis, etc eventually get Nintendo disapproval because they decide to ban a whole character from appearing
But that has to be proven first. Back in Melee people used that same argument for a jigglypuff ban while the spectatorship was increasing during that time with HBox.
@@daedrascrolls people used to say snake was boring and killing viewership now everyone loves him. not saying the same will happen with steve, but you never know. also never understood the puff haters in melee, i always thought it was fun watching her
Cant have scrubs dictate a competitive scene. Good luck getting respect as a scene with mickey mouse rules. This is how you stay the "lil bro" of actual fgc communities. Now stop crying.
DOS2 music caught me off guard
Theyre everywhere and their edgeguarding is "Fly through blocks."
And requires no commitment or risk
I feel like steve would be less of a problem if the rest of the meta wasn't also mostly terrible. Sonic, game and watch, dabuz, some samus, minmin and diddy. There's a lot of unfun to watch matches every tournament. If there was like 8 steves in top 64 but 56 fun characters (fox, falcon, DK, incineroar, roy, chrom, hero, etc) it would be less of a big deal.
Additionally, unlike any modern game, this shit ain't getting patched so it's not like we just have to wait out the shit meta until the devs buff the fun characters/nerf the lame characters like would happen with the killjoy example (if they are even unfun to play against).
My eyes were truly open to this whole scenario when I went all Steve in a local I went to.
I've been playing Steve basically since he came out and had never gone all in with him until recently. This local was fairly small, but it had some real good players. I go against this one guy in losers who I have been losing to time and time again, even with Steve. But this one time I changed my mindset and I won. I'm not kidding, the *ONE TIME* I won against him, he complained to the TO about banning Steve.
Now, this isn't to say he wasn't filled with gamer rage. He definitely was, and it's understandable. But the fact the words "ban Steve" never left his mouth until I beat him with the character really helped me realize how stupid the whole argument is.
The vast majority of the #BanSteve argument is fueled almost exclusively by gamer rage, rather than a genuine concern for the health of the competitive environment.
Most people don't want Steve banned because he's actually harming the competition.
Most people want him banned just because they don't like playing against him.
Well yeah he feels incredibly bad to lose against and meh to win against, I don't think he should be banned but I think that guy was reasonable in saying "hey can we agree not to run this character that makes everyone that plays against him not want to come to locals again" there's no real stakes there and everyone's trying to have fun. He shouldn't be banned in tourneys with pr though
The smash community is a bunch of small communities that just happen to interact a couple of times a month
My GOAT and *the GOAT* in one video? Lets go!!!
Finally, a video longer than 10 minutes
I would like to say as someone who was in T2 valorant for a good while and got heavily into smash. The KJ debate is so different to steve. Killjoy is played in a team role as a lurk character, she is not overpowered in the slightest(yes she is strong but there are many characters better) but she is the best character in a lurking role.
Also it is so hard to be a good lurker in valorant(and good anchor on sites) that KJ is one of the most sophisticated characters to play at top level. The problem people have at longer ranks with her is that she is hard to counter if you dont know the regular gameplan to counter her, or her general playstyle, but once you get to the higher ranks, she is nullified.
Well, even if I think the gap between Rob, aegis, or any tippy top tier & Steve is sizeable, I have to respect the opinion of the newly annointed BEST gamer in the World: voiD. He makes strong arguments for why character bans in smash aren't just not a good idea, but straight up a bad idea.
Agreed
Problem is 20% of all players in majors play steve, so anything they do will upset lots of people
Marss and Void need their own podcast
Yes please!
Rare L from Marss. Steve is top 1 in a way thats very alienating for viewers and players. Not like top tiers in other games that "play the game better" Steve plays a different game altogether. A game that's boring to watch. A game that's hard to care about. Which is why we're fine with Steve not being banned: we stopped caring.
Who's we? Even that recent poll that was used to banned the character in one tournament didn't even have 60% of votes for banning it. That leaves a LOT of people who don't want him banned.
Don't care. Sonic exist as well. Ban Dabuz too
A few ways I look at this.
1.) Asking about what steve mains think about a ban before we ban a character is a weird stance to take. Im sure in SF2, Akuma mains didnt want Akuma to be banned because he was their character that they won with. But the character was still very clearly broken and SHOULD have been banned.
This stance kinda seems to argue against the idea of banning characters PERIOD, even if the character is wholly deserving of a ban.
Now whether or not steve actually does deserve a ban is another question entirely, but the point being that, if he IS deserving of a ban, I dont think it matter what the people who play him say about it. The character should still be banned even if some people are going to struggle more to get results because of it. The competitive health of the game matters more.
2.) Weighting tournaments that ban steve lower than ones that dont only incentivizes tournaments to NEVER ban characters, because they get actively punished for doing so.
Tournaments want their tournament to be worth lots of PR points because thats what draws in a decent chunk of high level talent. If you punish them by forcing their tournaments to be worth less by banning certain characters, then they arent going to ever want to experiment with banning characters since it will hurt their attendance. This means that even if a character is fully justifiably ban worthy, big majors WONT BAN THEM because they dont want to get punished by doing so.
This just makes it nearly impossible to ban any character regardless of how broken or bad for the meta they are.
So in my personal view, Tournaments that ban steve should be rated the same as the ones that dont. The best solution to this problem though would probably to be to get a big collection of all the main TOs of the various big majors, and try to decide on a universal ruling. At the very least for NA/Europe/Japan if not a global ruling.
What matters the most right now is consistency in a ruleset. Either steve should just be banned everywhere, or nowhere. Maybe he's ban worthy, maybe he isnt, but we need to actually have that discussion, and a decision needs to actually be made by the majors which are running tournaments.
However the decision is reached, the various majors need to agree to it, and it needs to be as universal as possible. Letting each major decide on their own isnt going anywhere, so a universal ruling just has to be made.
VoiD, you should practice playing Steve for a month. Even if it sucks, it would prove a point.
Best Smash player in the world and Best gamer in the world making a video together wasn't on my plans for today
I banned Steve in my tournament because of pmlg, that’s it, cancelling hitstun is just unfair and that is the reason I banned him, I wouldn’t have banned him if he didn’t have that but it’s too easy to perform and gives him an unfair advantage which is my reasoning.
Love the Goldeneye music. . .
Ban Steve, we already have a 2D character.
My question is if your character gets shit by steve and you win a ban steve major does it still count because its not like it didn't take any skill to win and cindarella runs do hapen where someone happens to avoid bad matchups, but is that the same as not having to worry/prep for a matchup at all because your bracked demon doesn't exist.
Marss says it's cowardly to drop out of a tournament because it didn't ban the character you think is absolutely busted, but I'm pretty sure part of the reason he doesn't do competitive like he used to was because of fp2. Correct me if I'm wrong, but if thats true, I don't see the difference my guy.
Seeing Raflow stomp Big Chungus gave me more hope that there are still at least even/winning matchups against Steve
That was the set where chungus tried minecarting back to stage three times just to get palu baired each time, right?
@@micahbarrus8406 yeah, but it showed just how bad air to air trades were in favor of Palu. She just gets to neutralize the option everyone other character absolutely despises
@@prismescape1887 Yes, but it was also Raflow just being a significantly better player than Big Chungus. Lets see him smack someone like Onin that easily. Probably wouldnt happen because a player like Onin or Acola would actually mix up after they kept getting bodied in the exact same situation every time.
Raflow won that set easily because Big Chungus refused to adapt. And he isnt some top level steve or anything either. He's notable, but he isnt like massively top level. Raflow on the otherhand IS, as he's currently a top 3 palu in the world, and top 5 in Europe.
Obviously significantly better players are going to beat significantly worse ones most of the time. But fight a steve at the same skill level and that match would have looked much different.
Now that said, I do think palu does pretty good vs steve too. Probably even. But the point is, That set wasnt a good example of the actual match up as there was a clear disconnect in the skill level of the players involved.
@@eragon78 I'm talking about the specific option select of back air with it's invincibility.
The triple back air vs minecart was a refusal to adapt, but still a showcase of the disadvantage state he's put in by Palu privilege in particular.
The kinds of stuff that make the matchup even or winning.
@@prismescape1887 probably even but yea, I do agree that Palu's tools against steve are good. Bair is also pretty good at destroying steve's block wall since steve cant beat her bair through the wall.
But yea, palu is good vs steve, and top players do agree on that too. I know Nairo was watching Raflow vs Big Chungus too with Larry on call, and he was also saying he thinks Palu is pretty solid against steve.
the argument is really fun vs competitive integrity, if u ban steve everyone besides the steve players has more fun, but in a competitive tournament scene people don't Only play for fun and to exclude ppl who want to be the best and will do anything to get there from the scene entirely for trying to be the best is clearly dumb. imo the community's pretty close to an ideal situation where tournaments themselves decide whether he's banned or not, and i think weighting steve-banned tourneys slightly lower would be the ideal compromise. players who value the fun of not playing against steve get the main thing they want at the cost of it meaning less competitively - might even be more motivated to go to more no-steve events to make up for the lower points, and competitive players who only want to be the best have their place to play and are potentially rewarded more for playing through unfun steve sets. it gets blurrier the larger the event, a local banning steve for the sake of fun is completely fair especially if it's typically steve dominated, but for a major or supermajor the stakes are a lot higher n the competition a lot more serious, so banning steve has a way bigger impact n a lot more arguments against
the real answer is another balance patch but we know nintendo
I genuinely think of you buffed all the mid and low tiers there would probably be more counterplay to Steve
No, your performance against the other 70+ characters are more than valid and shouldn't be worth less. It is ridiculous to think removing a character with unfair competitive advantages only hurts the competitive scene. It is also beneficial to all the other players that explore the game in other ways. Further more, the audience and their enjoyment does matter, as the are the ones that become competitors and funders to the community. Keeping around unpopular characters that they don't want to see will hurt the community in other ways that is bad for competition.
@@whiteerdydudeNope it is objectively worth less. You had to remove a character to perform that well. Sit down.
@@ErtM-vh5vs if you are going to use the word objectively, you might want to be right about your point. To bad your not. Shut it.
They shouldve banned bayo way earlier and because the didnt smash 4 died earlier than it shouldve. Not a single steve main was ANYTHING before steve. Not a single top 8 made by any of them. Funniky enough exactly the same with bayo. We need to start callikg a spade a spade. Bayo mains were nothing before bayo and we shoukdve banned bayo earlier and not a single steve main was anything before steve. Does this not tell you this character is overtuned that nobodies who won nothing before can win now. Its not even a case of not wanting to play vs it its a case that for the longevity of the game for both spectators and players it's best hes banned because an overtuned aggressive character is one thing but an overtuned camper at the top kills the game
Sure, but the question is how fast Sm4sh died. Cause so far after Ultimate's last patch, it's still alive.
I don't think Steve players are as present and overwhelmingly as Bayo players in Sm4sh were.
We get Void and Divinity tunes lets gooo
In my opinion, it is not the fact that Acola won Super Smash Con 2023, it is the fact that Hbox heavily advocates a Steve ban while hosting his Coinbox Series why so many TOs decide to ban Steve! Hbox has always been that lame Jigglypuff player with no real voice
Honestly I think the Regen TO's knew the risks of banning Steve, regardless of whether the verdict had been decided, when they were organizing the tournament.
Steve’s kit is too good and too god awful to play against or watch. Even when viewing smash as a sport, sports are supposed to be fun and people compete because they enjoy the game. I’m all for banning Steve. There are 80+ other characters they can compete with it’s not like we’re excommunicating the players.
There are characters that make steve cry, why aren't people counter picking?
fr
just add a percentage stat of competing at steve legal tournaments
What I think makes the least sense is that when voting about baning steve or not, people who only watch competitive but dont participate shouldnt even participate, not enjoying watching a character isnt a reason
oops they talked about it at the end of the video
Man im stupid as fuck
I thought this was game theory
"There has to be a best character reguardless of the gap" has gotta be the worst take Ive heard a smash player have in years. I dont care if you want to ban steve or not this is just stupid
that is literally how EVERY FIGHTING GAME WORKS. truly a smash player moment
I feel like my biggest problem with Steve is he’s SUCH an anti fun character, playing against him is tedious, boring, not exciting. He’s so much better than any other character that he truly does carry all his players. VOiDs point about if bowser jr was banned but that’s not a fair comparison because bowser jr is objectively worse than Steve. And with the kj point, she is good but she’s not anti fun, she’s not anti meta, she conforms with the general gameplay of valorant. I do this it’s rough for Steve players but if they actually like the game enough they will pick a new character, if they are only playing smash because they can cheese wins with Steve than we don’t really need those players anyway.
what if we weighted steve banned majors both the same and less than no-ban tournaments and just have 2 rankings at the end, one with weighted and one with unweighted steve-ban majors.
No, that's a bad idea. If there are two ranking people will just view whichever one they want as valid. Which will only cause more problems. People already get pissy over one ranking
@@illford fair enough, this situation is just kind of a mess for everyone involved
I try not to comment too much anymore (especially about Steve) so I will skip Steve entirely to say say this real quick:
*We. Need. A. Universal. Set. Of. Rules.*
Edit: okay, now for Steve... Steve isn't hurting viewership as much as people say (or even at all in most cases)... I'm tired of people acting like Steve is dwindling down viewership by a huge margin. I watch streams and sometimes the viewership goes up when Steve is on screen lol. This whole argument has little merit. Until we see actual evidence of Steve hurting viewership, I'm not for banning him based on that. I don't care if YOU don't want to watch him. If your favorite player is Marss, would you stop watching him just because he fights Onin's Steve? No, you wouldn't.
I’ve been thinking about the Steve (and sometimes Kazuya) bans since the PMLG tech thing caused these controversies, and it’s obvious to everyone that every player invested insane amounts of time into each of their characters. That being said, it’s unfair to invalidate all the hours Steve mains grinded into the character. As Marss mentioned, it’s cowardly to ban any character. As a casual who loves meme characters like Bowser, Falcon, and Ganon, matching into bad matchups (which is most matchups) sucks, but I try and sometimes impress myself when I don’t suck.
Don’t ban anyone
You really can’t compare Steve to let’s say. . .
Akuma or Geese in T7
It’s still exciting to watch Akuma or Geese “ToD” combo someone with only one pixel of health w/ rage (plus both characters are DIFFICULT to master)
Watching Steve play creative mode In Minecraft, while also doing ridiculous combos that have multiple different routes while up a stock, and having the option to play aggressively or camp is just sad and corny lol
@@jaydenhohman2590
Reading comprehension not your forte?
1. I never said Steve was unbeatable
2. I never advocated Steve to be banned
3. All I said was. . . Steve was corny lol
@@jaydenhohman2590 I’m a Smash player, and an FGC player in general. . .
Where in MY comment did I say I hate the game or hate everything about the game?
Don’t worry, I’ll wait lol
Isn't steve the same character that can just ignore multi-hits?
Only with a "tech" that takes more effort than what it's worth
I think it's important that we HAVE banned Steve so we can get a grasp on what that means for the game, it's just whether that initial decision should be continued or if we should unban Steve for many of the reasons they said
I’m hella late but funny how they say look at the professionals while the nba makes a rule to not have 2 star players out at the same time 💀 yes the audience matters lol especially for longevity of the game.
Even if the character wasnt so over-tuned... it puts up fuckin walls and hides behind it? what the fuck is that lol
I for sure thing the viewers opinions matter. If no one is watching the game, that would be a problem for obvious reasons.
I can’t wait to see them both 3 stocked by a Steve. Teabagging and all.
marss did kinda murder onin at smashcon lmao
13:53 my man SO DID THOSE PEOPLE NOT IN TOP 32. They paid their entrance fee. They got hotels and traveled. AND THEY ARE THE MAJORITY, but your opinion on what should and shouldn’t be a rule is right relegated to you the select few who made it to the top? Horrible take. Y’all know Olympic rules and collegiate rule sets aren’t made by Olympic medalists right? It’s the people on the ground playing day in and day out.
"Spectator opinions don't matter because we're the ones here playing and spent money to be here."
Well, dude, spectators are the ones watching and donating and getting the tournament views and making it money so that the tournament can happen in the first place, so at the very least the opinions matter equally. You need us way more than we need you.
hey VoiD, turns out, Regen wasn't a major to begin with!
as someone who plays steve not because he's good, but because I've played minecraft since 2014 and I love ma boi, I do find people like this quite annoying.
none of our opinions should matter thats crazy only the pro players and the TOs opinions should matter frfr i should not be able to vote on a tournaments rules thats crazy haha
No major bans steve...
we need change NOW