This is the only channel with the most balanced take. There are other but they stand out. I'm just glad that Filoni is being called out more and more I'm beginning to think that the Ahsoka series was the straw that broke the camel's back.
@baki484 yeah I was pretty disappointed with it tbh. And I'm a fan of most of filonis work. Rebels felt like a direct downgrade from TCW as well. I don't have too much qualms with changing certain things from EU as George was always doing that.
He messed up everything when he’s not in check. This is the problem, none of them can do it alone. George needed people to help keep him from doing certain things, Dave and everyone else does to. But it has to be people who know what they’re working on.
Every detail that went into TCW went through George Lucas' office and got his approval. Everything. You want to be mad at someone, be mad at George Lucas, the creator of the franchise, for saying it was okay to redo certain things and approving of changes.
@@bluehero-96why would she have to be dead? There were tons of jedi who survived in EU. Grievous was the most prolific and successful jedi hunter UNTIL Vader came around in EU. So who would Vader even be hunting if no jedi survived?
@@SupremeKingToshiro I think watching it as a kid had me in awe. So it always had a lot of respect from me and many others cause of nostalgia. I do have to agree that it's not a perfect show; rewatching TCW points out a lot of its flaws. I still think it's one of the top 5 Star Wars shows of all time, though. Besides, we all know the winners write history, so one man's propaganda is another man's truth.
@@SupremeKingToshiro Yes. Personally, my head canon is the cartoons (both CW and TCW) are Republic Propaganda (the latter having some stuff snuck into the stories by the writers/animators, like most good cartoons do); the OG comics/novels are closer to "what really happened" (but still reported by people, so some bias explained) with the newer "canon" comics/novels aren't propaganda but had to go thru a "Ministry of Truth"ing before being published. (Might be some individual issues/novels that fall under a Seppie propaganda treatment; can't say I've read everything, but looking at the different story corridors as having overall biases can somewhat explain how they can be different; it'd be like reading the Japanese and American account of Midway, or if you've ever read the SGZ)
They should've brought Depa falling to the Dark Side over into canon, and also kept her as Kanan's Master. Imagine if when Ezra starts flirting with the Dark Side, Kanan sees the signs and does everything he can to stop it because _he's been through this before._
Faloni has a hard-on for his creation Ahsoka, so much so that he has her in everything. He also hates Mace Windu. The novels show Mace as more of a human being. This dude hated him so much that he gave him the Jar Jar arc in season six instead of giving us a potentially legendary duel between former friends and equals in Mace and Dooku. We had five Dooku vs Anakin/Kenobi in his Clone Wars show, contradicting the movie. He could've given us one with another Jedi like Mace.
Dave Filoni sure does have a wicked affection and obsession with putting every EU writer's characters down while putting Ahsoka up upon a high horse of moral superiority who can do no wrong. He has been even doing that against Luke Skywalker trying to tarnish him like Rian and J J Abrams did. Dave is just a bad man and I hear he disrespects Timothy Zhan a lot.
@@FriendlyBatDoom as schafrillas said: you can’t make a Jedi who decapitates an unarmed man hell TCW makes windu very human specially in the zillo beast arc and how much better he treated anakin
Agreed, older interviews showed that Filoni at least initially tried to respect legends while Lucas could care less. As time has gone on, Filoni's attitude certainly matches Lucas now.
@@TaraCicora I'm not Filoni's biggest fan, but I do remember George had overall say early in the Series so he must of been fine with the Retcons or they wouldn't have happened.
The thing that always annoyed me about TCW was that it wanted to have its cake and eat it too. It kept referencing different existing media/stories in the EU, yet were rewriting them instead of around them
It still baffles me that so many Star Wars fans actively WANT Disney to "bring back" the EU. That's insane to me. Disney deciding to not touch any of the old and instead make their own has been the best decision they ever made for the franchise. In an alternate universe there was a storyline about Mara Jade cheating on Luke.
Came to pay my respects because I also left my heart there! Another thing tho, screw that Ulic Qel Droma guy! I took him under my wing and he helped the Jedi trap me in an old stinky alien pyramid!!
Another aspect the *Clone Wars* series mishandled was the portrayal of the Separatist Council. Initially, there was supposed to be a storyline explaining how the Separatist Parliament lost its power to the council. Unfortunately, with the cancellation of the series, this story was never explored. In the original Expanded Universe (EU), the Separatist movement was entirely controlled by large corporations, making their influence straightforward and unified. However, the *Clone Wars* series introduced diversity within the Separatist ranks, showcasing various factions and motivations. While this added complexity and depth, the show failed to clarify why the Separatist Council played such a critical role in Revenge of the Sith. This left a narrative gap in understanding the council's significance within the broader story.
People always talk about how Dave filoni saved the clone wars and Star Wars. His decisions did as much damage to the lore as much as any of the sequels. Especially with his focus on Ashoka where her presence ceases to really make sense after Star Wars rebels. Instead of having Vader kill her she ends up being saved and just goes from a regular Jedi to completely over powered. He said that it would take Sidious and Vader to beat her. But it just goes on.
The validity of these criticisms aside, saying that TCW damaged the lore as much as the Sequels did is a bit of a stretch and unfair. The Sequels are simply on a different level of franchise-destroying.
So yeah, it's a REALLY GREAT thing that Rex was created to 'replace' Alpha... I don't even want to imagine how badly Alpha would have been ruined. Also the Timeline issue gets even worse when you notice that the time frame for various stories/events take place later in Canon than they did in Legends (eg: I think it's mentioned that the Inhibitor Chip arc takes place in 20 BBY in Legends vs 19 BBY in Canon). Moving events to later in the Clone Wars would've created its own problems for Legends (mainly when it got to overloading events into the early months of 19 BBY since Legends gave exact days and months for when significant events from films like RotS took place) but it would've given preexisting events more room to breathe.
As a slight advocate here, I'll say filoni kinda followed the rule from Lucas that "if it's not on film, then it's not canon." He kinda used that for a lot of things when making the series, and the alleged reason for making the movie first was to establish that the clone wars series is part of the new canon. So yeah, loved the show, and do agree that a few places have questions that need answers, but it's still a good show
26:45 I like the new story they put down for her. I wasn't a real fan of everyone constantly crapping on her character and killing her one way or another constantly in stories and books (and deleted story concepts). She's a genuinely good character and a great antagonist
The Mortis Gods are ... convenient scapegoats for a lot of the timeline screwiness; I can even see the whole business with them in Season 3 splitting the timeline into three paths, two similar yet distinct paths with fairly minor differences, and a third with greater differences but that shares some key events with the other two. And honestly, the retcon they used to meld the two different versions of Mandalore was kinda the obvious one, at least to me.
I think the biggest problem with TCW is how everything feels out of place. Yes, you can blame George Lucas for some of the decisions, but it was FIloni's refusal to honor the original material that made the show feel like a fan fiction. There were moments in TCW that felt more like a generic sci fi series than Star Wars. To me, I think the show tried way to hard to fix what people didn't like about the prequel trilogy and instead of fixing it properly, it changed almost everything to make it superior, especially with how Anakin went from a teenage brat who always wanted to show off to a guy who acts like that charismatic uncle you get along with very well.
I think this "cool" and kind side of Anakin could have worked if Anakin was also shown to be dark, like in previous works, like he's kind and caring to those close to him, but if you're not that close, he won't have a problem massacring you
So many of the changes could have easily been avoided. Use a different name for whatever planet, or create use a different race of Jedi that hasn't been used before, instead of stealing a name because you are too lazy to use a new one.
Far as I see it, a lot of recent star wars writers just want to write a star wars story without having to deal with everything that comes with being a star wars story. There is a place for that, it's called fanfic.
Honestly I remember when The Clone Wars came out, the Mandalorian stuff by Travis was retconned. People were angry about it and hate it. For me I barely saw the material. I read Boba Fett crossfire where Boba met Aura and guess what, they are working together in at the end of Season 2. Yeah the Ventress retcon was weird because dark disciple was done by Lucas daughter. You would think it's canon but they changed that. So what happened to Master Vos?
We know he was working with the Jedi Underground (canonically), so at least survived O66 Beyond that? Who knows... though I'd be hoping he's living his best life with Khaleen
Here’s the thing with the retcon game George approved all of them before Disney and he has never cared about EU material if it has anything to do with his main storyline that didn’t fit his vision the clone commandos are definitely a good example
Genuine question. Can these really be considered retcons? Like the EU/Legends despite common belief was never canon. As George saw it as an alternative universe, and not his vision. If The stories weren't canon and not made by the creator, Isn't it essentially a fanfic? So George or Filoni changing it doesn't really make a retcon. Like yeah it really sucks for those authors who worked so hard to contribute to Star Wars. But at the end of the day, G-canon was always above them and their work was always available to be disregarded.
Yes they are retcons because the EU was considered canon. it was considered canon by Lucasfilm and Lucasfilm licensing. whether or not George considered a cannon is up for debate. there are many, many quotes from him that conflict with each other. when it comes to George, actions speak louder than words, and his actions clearly show he wasn't all too concerned with staying in line with the EU. So, in short, George did not really consider it Canon to him personally. but to Lucasfilm and Lucasfilm licensing, it was indisputably canon. not even up for a debate. ask yourself this, if it was never cannon to begin with, why did Disney have to decanonize it?
I just don't think it is fair to complain about inconsistencies with the EU. The EU was never canon, in spite of what a lot of fans want to think. Lucas himself was heavily involved with Clone Wars and its story. Whereas he has always been clear that the EU was not canon. So while the Clone Wars was originally created before the Sequels and newer canon, it was always intended to be considered canon. The EU was not.
this is a pretty common falsehood that has passed around. The EU was most definitely can and according to Lucasfilm and Lucasfilm licensing. That's not even up for debate. now, if we're talking about whether or not Lucas himself considered a cannon, that's a different matter. If you want to judge Canon by what Lucas explicitly considered Canon, then fine. but according to Lucasfilm and Lucasfilm licensing, it was indisputably canon.
@@CT-316 Lucasfilm ≠ Lucasfilm Licensing. They were separate companies. Lucasfilm was George Lucas. Lucasfilm Licensing was Howard Roffman. And yeah, it was never effectively canon. Even in the prefaces for some novels it said as much, this is not what happens for real, just an interpretation, that does not come from Lucas. If the guy who made Star Wars, made the movies, made the characters of Anakin, Luke and others, made it all says that Anakin has a Padawan, Luke doesn't get married and Mandalorians are white, blonde pacifists on a barren wasteland planet living in cubes - then it is clear, that all that EU licensing material is not, in fact, canon. It may be canon to itself, but it is not canon to the stuff that actually matters: films and television. Whereas EU fanboys tend to pretend as if everything was this one, unified canon. No, it wasn't. The Licensing was separate. Movies & TV-shows were separate. Therefore, complaining about the fact that one world is not aligning with the other is pointless. I don't see people complaining about Boba Fett being a clone, instead of Jaster Mereel, or clone wars being a bunch of droids vs clones of boba fett, or Ki-Adi Mundi being a Knight on the council with a harem of wives, and so on. It is clear that Lucafilm Licensing was saying it was canon for real only as a marketing trick, to make Star Wars fans buy all those comics and books, to present them as "official continuations." Well, they weren't. And it imploded when Lucas had actually decided to make his own series and movies.
@@ziggystardust5209 I apologize for not getting the nitpicky detail correct regarding Lucasfilm and Lucasfilm licensing correct. And you basically said what I already said. Yes it was considered Canon to itself. but, that's not the entire truth. Yes, like I already stated explicitly, if George is the definitive standard for what you were defining is true cannon and what actually matters, then yes, the expanded universe was never cannon. but regarding the licensing and the official expanded Universe continuity, it was definitely canon. Also, what's with the hostile tone?
@@CT-316Hostile? I don't think I was, lol. Sorry you felt that way. I just don't really see the point of this video and most of this comment section. It'd be one thing if this was just an academical examination of differences between Lucas' show and the EU, presented in an honest, unbiased way. But right off the bat, this is presented as "filoni retconned this and this he stomped on it click it!!!", and this video tries to argue as if TCW was EU, therefore it retconned something, when both Lucas and Filoni had said from the start that it was not, in fact, EU. This video mentions Lucas exactly once in the very end in the context of the much misinterpreted Holocron database hierarchy system, and that's it.
Much like George Lucas, Dave is at his best when working with other writers who help develop his ideas and reign in his worse impulses. If you really love Clone Wars, you should also be thanking Henry Gilroy, Drew Z. Greenberg, Steven Melching, and Katie Lucas and not just giving all the credit to Dave Filoni.
...Not sure why people expect a franchise spanning... how many decades now?.. that anyone willing to pay Lucas $5 could add their piece to to have anything even resembling consistency.
Because they could at least try. They used to back when people had actual passion for storytelling and world building, but now all people want to do is tell a star wars story and not give damn about continuity. Which, like it or not, has damning ramifications on star wars as a whole.
@@ChinonsoNnadozie sheev’s video on “TCW doesn’t hold up” sucks ass. TCW does hold up and it’s great, he went through the clone wars watching it convinced already that it would suck and that it retcons legends stuff, guess what? Retcons ≠ bad the majority of TCW’s retcons where excellent: maul, Ahsoka and the clones are the highlights! Yes it has some bad stuff but EVERYTHING HAS BAD STUFF including the EU
@PteranoLiv nope he was right,they retconed so many characters back stories, turned general grevious and count dooku into idiots and cowards, Introduced so many world breaking concepts and got Anakin characterization from the sequel trilogy wrong and stagnant, inconsistent maps,bad arks, characterization of mace windu who is different from his movie counterpart. one of the good things about the show was the clones,maul ,order 66 and the Jedi( even that is inconsistent).
I love the healthy criticism here. I will always stay with this channel. love the lack of bias, it is very clear the folks who run this channel truly care about starwars and only want to see it do better. not milk it for profit or create some kind of bs safe space where we cant criticize what we love.
I agree with what Sheev Talks said (in their Clone Wars retrospective) that Barriss Offee was handled very poorly in that show, but she was handled terribly in Tales of Empire as well. Three episodes of 20 minutes each...60 minutes in total to talk about years of a character's life. We could remain faithful to the previous idea of Barriss as incarcerated under the Republic, but if we really wanted to make her an inquisitor, we needed not only to give her more space in this capacity, making clear the torment between using the dark side and serving a regime and Jedi training (with all due respect to the bomb planted during the war, but... you know, the damage had already been done), but also avoiding having Barriss meet Vader. Because if Barriss doesn't know who Vader is, he knows her very well... and seeing that she has no reaction to the person who falsely accused her apprentice is pure laziness. Not to mention the concept, poorly brought to the screen, of force healing... a concept that already existed in the EU and was associated with Barriss, but which needed to be understood in its facets (i.e., showing how using that ability consumed the own existence, visible at times, but never explicitly said), not to mention the idiotic death they gave to her.
@@Toshiro93 i really dislike sheev talks review on the clone wars, it’s INCREDIBLY biased and you can tell it’s from someone who watch TCW comvinced it “wouldn’t hold up” compare that to geestly’s (the guys who made this videoH who are objective and unbiased in every way. They acknowledge good and bad if everything and how it scales up and in terms of quality, while TCW has some REALLY bad arcs it overall is an ANAZING SHOW, and it’s peaks are the peaks of the franchise just like Andor or KOTOR
I think Lucas, not Filoni is to blame here. Lucas has a well known false ignorance of the EU despite taking elements of it. He wanted to make everything HIS idea for the new show and wanted to tell The Clone Wars as HIS story. Remember, Lucas was heavily involved for all but the final seasons. Lucas is known for his HUGE ego so he would take ideas that were carefully laid out by EU authors and put them in places where they didn't make sense but to him he was writing his OWN Clone Wars.
@@willfanofmanyii3751No one said otherwise. He's just pointing out that Lucas had an ego and did not play well with others. was he obligated to follow other people's stories? No. No one is saying that.
I dont care how they did it but Im so glad they brought back assaj ventress. Shes one of my favorite characters. I really feel like the bad batch did her justice and her changes felt like a logical growth. Im biased though because anyway to bring her closer to a live action return Ill love. Im so hopping they bring her back to join forces with Ashoka in season 2 or 3 of Ashoka.
How i see it is star wars is a long time ago in a galaxy far far away. Therefore what we are witnessing is a recollection of what happened, which with time has been interpreted in different ways, thus giving us different versions of the same story
The true Star Wars had always laid with George Lucas, the original creator, and he had precious little to do with the EU. Also, 99% things TCW did differently from the EU, are on Lucas, not Filoni. Filoni was just the guy Lucas hired to run the day-to-day production, but the show Filoni made was exactly the show Lucas wanted to be made. Therefore TCW didn't retcon anything, because the EU was never the true story to begin with. It was licensed fanfiction. Garbage tier fanfiction at that.
I’ve gotten into a conflict with someone saying that Lucas loved Legends, I personally don’t believe it, largely because he has been pretty vocal on what some character changes, with Grievous being a pure example and some of these were pre-Disney and largely because I hate comics and other supplemental material. And as much as I love Filoni, he and Lucas are in many ways responsible for the franchise being what it is now. From prequels to currently.
Sorry guys, I know a bunch of you are really invested in the old EU, but Disney decannonized it for a really good reason. It really creates issues with telling new stories and bringing in new fans to the IP. Don't get me wrong, Disney is killing Star Wars, but I shouldn't be expected to have remembered some trivial dialogue in a 30 year old EU comic to understand a reference on a screen. I don't treat anything that is not a motion picture production as canon.
As someone who did grow up with many Clone Wars EU media, I didn’t mind TCW’s existence or the fact that Dave Filoni was behind it, but in hindsight, I definitely think Filoni should’ve had Ahsoka die in Rebels so that her Character Arc could wrap up nicely.
Filoni is actually overrated. He's basically in love with Ahsoka and wants her in everything and outwardly hates the Empire and Stormtroopers, hence why he makes them incompetent as HELL whenever he gets the chance to like in the Mandalorian.
George himself said that all EU stories were canon until he decided to change things. Why are we complaining about trivial retcons when this stuff isn’t even canon anymore?
Because it set a damning precedent that has hindered the stability of star wars' world building and needs to be addressed if we have any hope of pulling star wars out of the mess it is in.
@@kirby7294 "Stability of Star Wars world building", LMAO Why was clone wars a war between Boba Fett clones and robots saying roger roger, and not whatever Zahn described? Why was Boba Fett a clone of some guy named Jango Fett, and not Jaster Mereel from Concord Dawn? Why was Ki-Adi Mundi a Jedi Knight on the council with a harem of wives, when the movies were explicit that only knights could be on the council and Jedi could never marry? I could go on and on. You guys are such hypocrites. Lucas never gave a damn about EU or your "worldbuilding". And he contradicted it with the movies without a second thought. And he contradicted it with The Clone Wars without a second thought. Because his vision > 3rd party merchandize written by someone else. And he would have done it again, by pulling Darth Talon out of Legacy and placing her 5 years after ROTJ as Maul's apprentice. Just cuz he liked the design, you know? Because he owned the entire thing, could take what he liked, disregard what he didn't like, and do what he wanted - and he had complete right to do so.
@ziggystardust5209 The first half of your argument is irrelevant. Stating events in the story with little context doesn't prove or disprove either point. And second, you're right. Lucas had every right to do whatever he wanted with star wars and it would have been terrible. Lucas isn't some infallible saint and we, the fans, have the right to express our concerns when something isn't right. Blindly following whatever is thrown your way because the people who did it are the ones in power is exactly how we get in the mess we're in to begin with.
I feel like the Clone Wars TV show should be retroactively made Canon *only* and not Legends, just so that the original Clone Wars timeline can have its place in Legends.
you can blame filoni all you want while blinded by nostalgia but nothing happened in tcw without george approving it, except probably season 7. also feel the need to say that lucas himself always only considered the movies and tcw as his star wars, the rest was just there. edit: cant retcon something that was never canon to begin with
I'm actually glad the original clone ars cartoon is no longer canon for one reason and one reason only. There's one short where Mace Windu single-handedly destroys an entire droid army by himself along with a giant superweapon. It looked cool but it creates a glaring inconsistency with what Jedi and Mace in particular are shown to be capable of in Episode: II, specifically the Arena. If Mace Windu alone is capable of taking down an entire droid army single-handedly then why did so many Jedi die in the Geonosis arena? Mace could have wiped that entire army out himself if the 2003 cartoon is to be believed so why didn't he? Did he just let his fellow Jedi die for shits and giggles??
Something that always trips me up about the prequel trilogy is Anakin and Griveous meeting on the Invisible Hand. Grievous tells Anakain that “he would have expected someone with his reputation to be a bit older and Anakin replies to him with “General Greivous, you’re shorter than I imagined. This implies that they are meeting for the first time in Revenge of the Sith. However, in TCW, There are episodes such the battle of kamino and the episode where R2 goes missing during the space battle between Anakin and General Greivous that implies that they have previously met each other before. I don’t know much about Expanded Universe content and lore in Star Wars, but these changes make it confusing because there are multiple sources of content saying different things about characters.
What Geetsly is say i definitely agree with the mess ups or incincistanceys etc but at the end of the day since TCW isn't continued at the moment I'm thankful for all of it the old and the new. I think they all have there place of course I wish say the mandalorian arc was more consistent with what was before same with ryloth or even all the jedi events during order 66 etc. But TCW is one of the funnest and greatest young tv shows that has been created! Keep up the awesome content Geetslys! Been watching you for a long time!
Filoni is lucky that Disney bought SW in 2012 and proceeded to F*** It for the next twelve years. This made his sins against the work of everyone else other than himself seem insignificant in comparison, his public image would be way more negative If not for that. Especially because I have no doubts that he would make Rebels right after TCW, and It would simply ignore everything The Force Unleashed stablished about the creation of the Rebel Alliance in favour of Ezra and his OCs. And I have nothing against Rebels mind you ( _other than Ahsoka being ressurected after the perfect conclusion of her arc in Twilight of the Apprentice_ ), but It would NEVER fit in the continuity of the EU.
I wouldnt have minded Adi Gallia's death if they had bothered to flesh out her character and not abandoned her EU backstory. Her character never got to have humour and reasoning that was hinted and her death was treated nowhere near Even Piells
This is why I've grown to become in favor of the old Clone Wars multimedia project. It feels like a natural story that takes place in between AOTC and ROTS while TCW took far too many liberties with the lore. There are a couple things I prefer in TCW(it's versions of Plo Koon, Kit Fisto, the Clone troopers etc), but more often than not the TCW version of certain characters and stories are inferior to what came before IMO.(Republic comics Vos > Dark Disciple Vos. Swamp gas > Blue Shadow virus. Force Harvester > Malevolence. Jabiim > Umbara. Etc.) Honestly the Dark Lord trilogy(consisting of Labyrinth of Evil, ROTS novelization, Rise of Darth Vader) is my favorite piece of Star Wars media ever, and a near perfect series finale to the Clone Wars multimedia project.
Imagine a animated clone wars story about Anakin before he gets knighted and struggling with his cybernetic arm after loosing to Dooku and Durge and Ventress are the main early villains. Anakin is still Obi Wans Padawan and we also see him get his scar and meet Rex for the very first time.All this a short prequel to the animated clone wars series!
Personally it isn't a retcon for me if it didn't retcon something that happened on screen. TV and movie events are a higher level of cannon in my opinion and books are supplemental. If a TV show or movie contradicts books, comics, or video games then, in my opinion, it is the books/comics/video games that are wrong not the show or movie. They have always been wrong we just didn't know it yet
I had this stuff pointed out to me years ago. It caused me to go back and reread the Republic comics and see just how it impacted things. Now I feel ripped off.
So what I'm understanding is that there were already two Clone Wars timelines that existed before Disney even got involved and separated things into Canon and Legends. Interesting.
Everyone else has woken up to this mans lack of respect towards lore. Hes not as good as people make hin out to be (good, but not perfect). It seems the only person willing to still support him, 100% is SW Theory. (When i say people, i mean content creators)
Even though it's not possible to remove it from Legends completely... I just head canon it and all other content linked to the show's version of the Clone Wars out of Legends (and replace the characters in my favourite arcs with less seen Jedi). Although, aside from it being Abeloth's origin, how directly tied are The Ones to the events of 'Fate of the Jedi'?
I like think of it as events that did happen but was exaggerated by Republic propaganda. As for the Ones, if I remember right, they have no impact on Fate of the Jedi, just Abeloth. It was more of a weak attempt to tie the Legacy era to Clone Wars.
The ones barely tie into the expanded universe and the fate of the Jedi. aside from the in-universe Book of Sith source book and the final book in The Fate of the Jedi series, the mortise gods barely have anything to do with the EU. And it's also worth keeping in mind that the fate of the Jedi series takes place during one of the most controversial eras in the expanded universe, that being the legacy. aside from the legacy comics, pretty much everything taking place after the new Jedi order series is very controversial and many people headcanon them out of their timelines anyways.
@@CT-316 Ok, I'll make a judgement on it for myself on whether to ignore Fate of the Jedi when I get there but without the context of the novels, I'll just assume any references to the Ones are minimal enough that I can just get rid of that arc from the Legends Timeline along with the rest of the show. Also given how I think the references to them in Book of Sith are set pre TCW, I think it's vague enough to head canon that reference as an in universe myth (although I head canon that the Nightsister part doesn't exist for obvious reasons)... unlike The Jedi Path which has Ahsoka as one of the characters making side notes throughout. I can't remember which but in one of those books, Luke basically just shrugs and says he can't understand the chronology of the Clone Wars which feels like the writer being meta and finding a place in the text to say "How the hell am I meant to make the two versions fit together?!"
While I can appreciate the EU content, I don't see it as DEFINITIVE because it was never directly from George Lucas. So I take the movies and the shows as Cannon and the EU as more of a thought experiment. This coming from someone who loved the Timothy Zahn books when they came out. I did not see it as "fixed" as the movies (then just the Original Trilogy). So I am not upset and you have characters like Shark Ti who has at least FOUR different deaths in various Star Wars media. So, not worth getting upset over.🤔👍✨
Other than members of the original EU not being dead, I agree with Sam Wittwer’s idea that these are like campfire stories. They’re going to be confusing and rife with continuity errors.
I honestly like the mandarlorian change. Because a warrior society like them would realistically blow themselves up, like the krogan for example. Seriously look at tachanka.
he should not be allowed to do this period. he needs to stop getting away with it bc hes currently ruining star wars imo. he even retcons his own work. its disgusting honestly; he has too much power
People often blame Filoni, which I always thought was garbage. NOTHING on that show was done without the approval or blessing of George Lucas. Also, the narrative that the clone wars supposedly retconned things is also false because a lot of the stuff people claimed got retconned are things that George never viewed as Canon in the first place
@@Jedishill680 Well, the EU seems to be a lot more popular nowadays than the Canon, isn't it? George had been down for some changes before, so really it just depended on his mood
George's approval is a loose term. Remember, Revan and Darth Bane episode was lacking only a proper render and voices before it could be finished until George suddenly interrupted and realized that With can't do that thing
@@Jedishill680 I'm tired of pretending like Lucas's ideas are automatically better than anything else just because it's titled to be his. Talon and Maul for sequels is a terrible idea, Luke as hermit is a terrible idea, Anakin having a padawan is terrible idea, Grievous as moustache twirling villain is rudimentary terrible idea and etc.
If you are gonna blame Filoni for retcons in Clone Wars, you should also put it on Lucas himself, anything that happened in the Clone Wars show was also his doing too. Any changes like for example Anakin having a padawan, was his idea. Everything Filoni did was okayed by George. It's fine to criticize the man, I don't like some changes he has done, but he still did more good than bad. Lucas never really cared for the extended universe, I mean the dude hates Mara Jade and we all know if he was gonna make sequels, all of that would've been retconned anyways. Legends and canon are two different continuities, and legends ( especially comics and books ) are always on the chopping block of getting retconned. This has always been a thing with Star Wars and it will never change. Honestly, it feels like people are now hating on him for no other reason than for attention since it is meta, few years ago all of you were pretty much sucking him off, but now just wanna appeal to the majority. Just like Star Wars Theory went from "I am fine with sequels" to "oh look at me, I hate them too ha ha, please love me".
Yeah, same here, he did things still better than what Kathleen Kennedy and Leslye does currently. He was Lucas' padawan and though flawed, his visions were closest to Lucas and Star Wars as a whole. Now we have Force feminisers and sith simpathisers that know nothing about the franchise yet allowed to be at the helm. Wtf
yeah but we've all known that lucas can be an idiot. this whole "lucas is flawless" narrative was started by disney shills as a way to attack the old eu.
I agree, although imo Dave did more harm than good and like you mentioned, George shares blame as much as Filoni, perhaps even more as he agreed with many of the things Filoni executed. Anakin never should have had a Padawan, and if they really wanted Ahsoka to be in the story, she should've been Plo Koon's apprentice for starters. I still have no clue of how on earth these two thought it was a wise idea to have her be mentored by Anakin when the Jedi literally didn't trust him with a seat on the council, let alone to have a student of his own when they even gave Obi-Wan trouble for it back in TPM?
It's called growth. Star Wars theory had years to sit back and reflect, and he came to the logical conclusion that the Sequel Trilogy sucked and Disney Star Wars was canceraids. It's really not hard to understand. Sure, there will always be grifters, but I genuinely believe most people making content are fans that hate the direction the franchise has taken over the last decade.
@@RubenMakaya Dave Filoni created Ahsoka ( Ashla at the time ) to be some elses padawan, an orginal character by Filoni, but Geroge told him she is to be Anakins padawan. The origina conecpt for Clone Wars wasn't gonna center around Anakin, Ahsoka and the rest.
for my sake of thought i treat the old EU and current star wars different timelines or universes all of its star wars the the stories and power scaling is different, like the clone wars show and mini series both i keep in line with the movies 1-6 but the mini series i like the keep with old EU same with force unleashed (for jedi fallen order and jedi survivor i keep line with the clone wars show) as all those stories and events were really good and go in line with eachother telling a really good and prolonged story. (in short i love both for like i said for the sake of mine i treat both as different time lines and power scaling, i would also like to see the old EU stories be continued in some way like something new for old EU/legends now)
🤔 . . . There is probably ONE of Dave Filoni’s stories that might explain this: _Star Wars: Rebels_ : _World between Worlds_ . If that ‘story arc’ is true, then what we have here is a _Star Wars_ multiverse at play here & such…
It should be as simple as the Clone Wars 2008 is Canon and only canon, not legends, it fixes nearly if not every problem. Simply makes the Clone Wars 2008 books like the movie novelization, Wild Space, and No Prisoners canon and as well as the 2008 clone wars games such as Jedi Alliance, Lightsaber Duels and Republic Heroes.
So what does the Lucas Story Group ACTUALLY do? Allegedly they work with creators to tell stories that fit within the universe without conflicting with existing canon. Are these people just paid for a lofty ideal? Obviously they get ignored whenever certain people are involved. So what’s the point in having that team?
Meh, my exposure with the multimedia project just makes it feel a bit overrated. Doesn't help that it feels like it suffers from being made between movies so everything is Attack of The Clones inspired until right before Revenge of The Sith comes out and suddenly everything changes to fit that movie.
While The clone wars is technically considered canon to the old EU, there's a reason most legends fans treat the 2008 show as non canon, and it's because of all the retconning and inconsistencies.
The comments on this video didn’t bother watching it at all, they just came to hate filoni and TCW, geestly’s himself said it: TCW is great but it has mistakes and this mistakes are more so George’s fault than filoni’s in old interviews filoni was willing to keep the old EU intact but George differed and this is not new: remember all of the content he retconned while making the prequels: the old clone wars story which was forced into the new story, none fett being a stormtrooper etc. so pls stop pretending the EU is “George’s Star Wars” or that it’s retroactively better than Disney canon: I personally love both and criticize both, if I had to choose which one is better I’d say the old EU BUT out of longevity, it’s produced more content than Disney’s canon and therefore more stuff is good despite legends shortcomings. But canon has ALOT of great stuff despite the retcons who h have been in legends aswell since THE VERY BEGGINING
George Lucas never liked the Expanded Universe, dude. That's why he picked and chose the stuff he liked about it to use in The Clone Wars. He said, "The only things that are canon are the movies and TV shows". Of course, this was BEFORE Disney bought LucasFilms, but everyone seems to have forgotten that.
Now I will try to be as calm, respectful, and honest in my comment on this matter, just as you have been Grand Master Geetsly, but if I fail I apologize in advance. I love Star Wars The Clone Wars. I have many fond memories of watching it on Fridays night on Cartoon Network back in the day and then watching the rerun next morning on Saturday alongside the new Pokemon episode that would air. It is still an important part of my life today, as usually on my days off from work I watch one or two episodes on Disney+ while I eat breakfast. Star Wars may not be my all-time favorite franchise out there, but I can say with 100% certaintly that The Clone Wars is my all-time favorite TV Show. However, despite all that, I can still freely admit that there were many great stories from Legends that got unfairly retconned out and that despite how much I love the show and respect Dave Filoni and the his crew as great writers, they really should have tried harder to keep some of these Legends stories in continuity or at least try to create their own versions of some of these events. However, I must also play Gritina's advocate here and try to defend some of these retcons and descions, not just from the Clone Wars, but many that have come about in recent years. Now the main argument, one that while I don't fully agree with I do understand, is that manys fans are just going to watch the movies and TV shows not read the books of comics. So its kind of unfair to deny Star Wars fans from seeing some aspects of the franchise by locking it behind stuff they just have no interest in. Movies and TV are more closely linked to each other. Some people probably only know about stuff involving Mandalorians because they watched TCW and The Mandalorian. Some people would never know what happened to Ventress after TCW got cancled if they didn't read the book staring her and Vos, and some people probably don't want to read a book, so I can understand bringing her back in The Bad Batch or depicting the showdown between Boba Fett and Cad Bane in the Book of Boba Fett because the cancelation of TCW meant we never got to see it like it was intended to be. Although, I am a little biased on the Vventtress point because I love her and I also love hearing Nika Futterman(Ventress's voice actress) in Star Wars and not just The Loud House. Like I said, this is the main argument and I don't fully agree with it since books and comics have just as much work and creativtly pored into them as Movies and TV shows, as you stated yourself, Grand Master Geetsly. But I must be honest and say I do agree a little with this argument, mainly because of the type of fan I am. You see, I really don't like to read comics and books. They are not my thing. I just am a TV show and Movie guy mostly. When the Clone Wars Multi-Media project was happening I was mostly unaware of it, as the time between episodes 2 and 3, I just watched the 2003 Clone Wars Micro-Series when it aired on Cartoon Network, and played the orignal Battlefront and Battlefront 2 games. That was my only exposure to the Multi-Medi project, so when I first started watching The Clone Wars when it aired I didn't see any problems with it I just assumed it happened in-between Chapters 21 and 22 of the Micro-Series, because it made sense to me, the first 21 Chapters involve Anakin getting Knight and introduces Grevious and Ventress all three things that are major parts of TCW. I didn't learn about the rest of the Multi-Media until some time after TCW was cancled and ended back in 2013. So I didn't learn about all the contiunity, timeline, and other issues until much later. Like how Anakin was only made a Jedi Knight 2 and half years into the war. Which on a side note, I'd like to go off on a tanget and say how the way Chapter 21 of the Micro-Series is framed makes no sense when you know the actual timeline: So Chapter 21 dipicts the end of the Battle Hypori which takes place 4 months into the Clone Wars. Then we get that scene of the Jedi Council debating on weather or not to make Anakin a Jedi Knight. However, they only got to this point after discussing how dangerous and powerful Grevious, including mentioning the stuff at Hypori with Mundi saying, "When was the last time someone stood up to five Jedi and held his own?" and deciding they need more Jedi Knights to help with Greivous. So the way Chapter 21 frames things it seems like this debate and Anakin's Knighting only takes place like a few days after Hypori because they dicussing the events that happened there. However, the timeline of the Multi Media project reveals Hypori taking place 4 months into the Clone Wars and Anakin becoming a Jedi Knight happens 30 months into the Clone Wars. So that means the Council either waited 2 years and 2 months after Hypori to talk about what happened at Hypori or they debate weather or not to make Anakin a Knight for 2 years and 2 months, either one paints to the Council as stupid for taking so long. Sorry about the tanget, back to the main topic. So yeah, I didn't learn about the full details about the rest of The Clone Wars Multi Media project until after TCW first ended back in 2013. However, like I said I'm not really a comic or book guy, so I acquired my knowledge of the Multi Medi project, as well as other Legends stuff through different means, mostly just reading stuff on the Star Wars Wookipedia and watching many great UA-camrs make videos on this stuff, including the great Grand Master Geetsly himself. I acquired my knowledge my own way and have at least a decent amount of it, still nothing compared to the knowledge Grand Master Geetsly possess, of course. And through this method I learn about a lot of great stories like the Battle of Jabiim and the Siege of Salecumi, the story of one of my all-time favorite Jedi Dass Jennier, the greatness that is Grand Admiral Thrawn and so on. I don't think the way I enjoy Star Wars makes me any less of a fan, just like those who choose to only watch TV shows and Movies and not learn anything else are less fans. After all, we all enjoy something in our own ways. However, despite again not being a comic or book guy, I still like what I do know about these stories and really wish TCW kept some of the other stuff from the Multi Media project. In fact, I have written many fanfics where I take a Clone Wars Legends battle and try to fit it into the New Canon by combiding elements from both, as well as a few of my own ideas. And I try to be as respectful and accurate to the Legends stories as reasonably possible. Again, I don't really read comics but I look up comic book pages from the stories online on free comic book reading websites, and while I don't read the entire story, just get the stuff I need I try to be as accurate and respectful as possible in my research and writing. For instances, for my Fanfic of the Battle of Jabiim, I make Ahsoka one of the 29 Jedi at Jabiim, meaning we only have 26 Jedi killed instead of 27, I don't have Obi-Wan captured by Ventress, but I do have her injure him and Rex to take them out of the fight for a while, and speaking of Ventress because of her presence at the battle in Legends I make her a much bigger player here then in the actual battle since all we know from the actual Legends battle is she captured Obi-Wan and Alpha-17, letting her get a few Jedi kills, inclding members of the Padawan Pack and since I set the battle just before Dooku betrays her at Sullest like in TCW it serves as a good way to justify Sidious concerns that she's getting to powerful with how much she beats the Jedi on Jabiim. I also add Grevious to the battle to give him more Jedi kills, inculding Leska whose death I alter in my version, because I want to make Grevious at least a decent threat and I think if 26 Jedi were killed at this battle two very skilled Jedi killers like Ventress and Grevious should be there. However, some deaths still happen like they did in the actual battle to be faithful to original story like that Twe'lek Jedi who Alto Stratus cuts the head off of, or like the member of the Padawan Pack that got crushed under the wheel of a Hailfire Droid, or how the last member of the Padawan Pack takes Alto Stratus down with her and so on. I also alter the ending to fit better with TCW's depiction of the Jedi, at least the good ones like Obi-Wan, Anakin, Ahsoka, Plo Koon, and so on, where while the Republic lose at Jabiim and are forces to retreat they do at least get the Loyalists off the planet too, by hiring Hondo(the only one crazy enough to run the Separatist blockaid for money) to give them some extra ships since the Republic doesn't have enough to spare to go to evacute everyone on Jabiim. I try my best with these stories to be as faithful to these Legends battles as possible to give them the respect and love they deserve, while also being fair to TCW's views on things and my own personal views and ideas. But these are just my own person thoughts on all the retcons and what Star Wars has been doing in recent years. Maybe you have a different view on things, which is okay.
I am glad to see this channel come from a countdown of the best things from Star Wars, to one of the best channels for exploring the franchise and aren't afraid to call out bad writing or conflicts in the narrative!
Jango was lucky to die in Attack of the clones, if he didnt they would have ruined him as well in filoni's TCW. They even wanted to bring Durge into the show but to make him a human character, thankfully we did not see that happen.
This always felt so intentionally disrespectful to me. Like, I do love the content and appreciate your calm, nonskewed discussion, but it also feels at times like there's a blatant disrespect. Why did it have to be Kanan with the Bad Batch? Why did they even have to change minute little details like Gray's armor color? Why change Ahsoka's story so much when it could've been done just as well as was portrayed in the book. Little changes like her lightsaber colors are just so upsetting. It feels like it's just an intentional little thing sometimes.
Sure George had the legal power to make changes, although I don't agree with it. But it's his company. But Filoni doesn't have that sort of power. I honestly don't why he continues to change canon just for the sake of not being able to write stories while respecting other writers.
I will say, while the EU may not all have been accepted by George Lucas as far as storybeats go, there's a reason why laege chunks of it are preferred over current Canon The show certainly took liberties when taking bits and pieces of the EU, but I will say it wasn't always the best. Filoni did rather well, but left a lot to still be desired. The Clone Wars is the very hard line in the sand separating Canon and Legends. The Retcons in the storyline beforehand could be made to work and mesh with one another, but as soon as the Clone Wars begins, everything is far too divergent. Especially the case for the Mandalorians, Twi'Leks, etc... poor Traviss, all her work for Mandalore just tossed for something far less interesting. (The biggest tragedy for me is the history of Dathomir, and the lack of any ties to the Celestial/Mortis Gods)
I never liked his choices with Ventress and Offee. They reslly were bad decisions. Considering he married a literal witch who inspired the Acolyte, I am glad Star Wars is not in his control.
@@rvds2040, I don't see them mentioning Lucas, could you help me find it? After all, you're surely not the kind of idiot to disengenuously strawman who you argue against, right?
@alfieingrouille1528 I know George didn't wanted Grievous to be op to avoid someone to be more powerful than Vader however Filoni humiliated Grievous in many ways.
It's surprising how this argument has erupted among fans today when this first began 16 years ago. The result of that argument, and Lucasfilm's and Disney's decision to wipe the Expanded Universe away, was the total disregard of Star Wars by the old EU segment of the fanbase. And now with recent projects among the Filoniverse doing the same thing among the Disney Canon, and fans getting upset and divided once again, I can't help but wonder if we're going to see another segment of the fanbase leave Star Wars behind? Or if we're going to see another reset of the universe because of Filoni and the lack of attention and care in keeping their stories straight?
Its so sad cuz having maul in the eu tcw timeline would have been cool but having everything else overwrite in (including the 2003 grevious GOAT) isn't worth it
star wars short series did a amazing job showing the danger of some of the big bads. Grevous was a true monster in his first aperance in the show like a horror movie villan, Durge realy showed he was NOT to be messed with and ventress was defenitly more scary than in the later show if you ask me. also the troop of clone comandos that infiltrated the city on munelinsk destroying that massive cannon!
This is how I feel about the Ashoka show when it comes to Thrawn. Granted, they had to play the hand they were dealt by Rebels, but it still bothers me. The fact that they didn't once reference his unique skill of discerning tactics and psychology from art was very discouraging to watch. I'm somewhat optimistic for the next season making it a part of his character, but they might just find it too jarring, given that it's not a part of his existing character in that show. To give credit where it's due, at least Rebels incorporated that aspect, even if only rarely.
As a fan and critic of both TCW and the Multi-Media project, thank you for keeping this discussion calm and respectful when some many others don’t.
This is the only channel with the most balanced take. There are other but they stand out.
I'm just glad that Filoni is being called out more and more I'm beginning to think that the Ahsoka series was the straw that broke the camel's back.
@@jakeythewatcher true
@baki484 yeah I was pretty disappointed with it tbh. And I'm a fan of most of filonis work. Rebels felt like a direct downgrade from TCW as well. I don't have too much qualms with changing certain things from EU as George was always doing that.
Based I like both. Clone wars is the best star wars era imo
@@snackeater4990 Yes
He messed up everything when he’s not in check.
This is the problem, none of them can do it alone. George needed people to help keep him from doing certain things, Dave and everyone else does to. But it has to be people who know what they’re working on.
Every detail that went into TCW went through George Lucas' office and got his approval. Everything. You want to be mad at someone, be mad at George Lucas, the creator of the franchise, for saying it was okay to redo certain things and approving of changes.
@@nuclearsimian3281thank you. All these people are trying to say Lucas was perfect and do away with his part in all of this
People are rarely open to critique or any suggestions. Too many people everywhere always think what they say and do is 100% right all the time.
@@nuclearsimian3281
If that was actually true, Ahsoka wouldn't be alive after TCW to be Filoni's Mary Sue-adjacent OC in the Disney timeline.
@@bluehero-96why would she have to be dead? There were tons of jedi who survived in EU. Grievous was the most prolific and successful jedi hunter UNTIL Vader came around in EU. So who would Vader even be hunting if no jedi survived?
The age-old debate, I'm glad more people are giving filoni criticism.
Also, the further I go from tcw, it is not as good as I remember. Head canon, lore wise, tcw is republic propaganda
@@SupremeKingToshiro It is not good
@lukescrew1981 I prefer the 2003 one more. I read some of the old dark horse comics, too.
@@SupremeKingToshiro I think watching it as a kid had me in awe. So it always had a lot of respect from me and many others cause of nostalgia. I do have to agree that it's not a perfect show; rewatching TCW points out a lot of its flaws. I still think it's one of the top 5 Star Wars shows of all time, though. Besides, we all know the winners write history, so one man's propaganda is another man's truth.
@@SupremeKingToshiro Yes.
Personally, my head canon is the cartoons (both CW and TCW) are Republic Propaganda (the latter having some stuff snuck into the stories by the writers/animators, like most good cartoons do); the OG comics/novels are closer to "what really happened" (but still reported by people, so some bias explained) with the newer "canon" comics/novels aren't propaganda but had to go thru a "Ministry of Truth"ing before being published. (Might be some individual issues/novels that fall under a Seppie propaganda treatment; can't say I've read everything, but looking at the different story corridors as having overall biases can somewhat explain how they can be different; it'd be like reading the Japanese and American account of Midway, or if you've ever read the SGZ)
They should've brought Depa falling to the Dark Side over into canon, and also kept her as Kanan's Master. Imagine if when Ezra starts flirting with the Dark Side, Kanan sees the signs and does everything he can to stop it because _he's been through this before._
Ezra pretty much did flirted with the Dark Side in the earlier episodes of Season 3 of Rebels
The Kanan comics already subtly reference the events of Shatterpoint. But it's up to your headcanon whether Kanan knows about what happened or not
I disagree Faloni would've most likely made Mace the villain and Ahsoka somehow the hero.
@@isaackim7675 Indeed- but we didn't have Kanan going "oh shit, here we go again"
Wait, Depa turned to the Dark Side?
I prefer old Grievous lore than TCW ROTS Grievous lore.
@@hunterkiller1440 that is a factually correct take, ROTS and canon grievous sucks ass
true
Faloni has a hard-on for his creation Ahsoka, so much so that he has her in everything. He also hates Mace Windu. The novels show Mace as more of a human being. This dude hated him so much that he gave him the Jar Jar arc in season six instead of giving us a potentially legendary duel between former friends and equals in Mace and Dooku. We had five Dooku vs Anakin/Kenobi in his Clone Wars show, contradicting the movie. He could've given us one with another Jedi like Mace.
The dooku stuff was annoying. The episode where they were all tied up together made no fkn sense
Dave Filoni sure does have a wicked affection and obsession with putting every EU writer's characters down while putting Ahsoka up upon a high horse of moral superiority who can do no wrong. He has been even doing that against Luke Skywalker trying to tarnish him like Rian and J J Abrams did. Dave is just a bad man and I hear he disrespects Timothy Zhan a lot.
He hates Mace windu?
@@dennischristopher9952 No that episode was funny. Had the best banter
@@FriendlyBatDoom as schafrillas said: you can’t make a Jedi who decapitates an unarmed man hell TCW makes windu very human specially in the zillo beast arc and how much better he treated anakin
I think George is also partially to blame since he oversaw some of these decisions.
Agreed, older interviews showed that Filoni at least initially tried to respect legends while Lucas could care less. As time has gone on, Filoni's attitude certainly matches Lucas now.
@@TaraCicora I'm not Filoni's biggest fan, but I do remember George had overall say early in the Series so he must of been fine with the Retcons or they wouldn't have happened.
Is that why Filoni went behind his back?
@lukescrew1981 when did he do that?
George always said it the shows and movies 1st
The thing that always annoyed me about TCW was that it wanted to have its cake and eat it too. It kept referencing different existing media/stories in the EU, yet were rewriting them instead of around them
I left my heart in the Expanded Universe.
So do I. I do not recognize Disney Star Wars as the authoritative source. I only recognize the Expanded Universe as the authoritative source.
TO MEGA-BUSTERSHEPARD5537, ALRiGHT THAT WAZ A NiCE 1 [NOT YELLiNG, JUZT LiKE TYPiNG iN CAPZ]
It still baffles me that so many Star Wars fans actively WANT Disney to "bring back" the EU. That's insane to me. Disney deciding to not touch any of the old and instead make their own has been the best decision they ever made for the franchise. In an alternate universe there was a storyline about Mara Jade cheating on Luke.
@@klaykid117 i COULD STiLL SEE MARA DOiNG iT [NOT YELLiNG, JUZT LiKE TYPiNG iN CAPZ]
Came to pay my respects because I also left my heart there! Another thing tho, screw that Ulic Qel Droma guy! I took him under my wing and he helped the Jedi trap me in an old stinky alien pyramid!!
Another aspect the *Clone Wars* series mishandled was the portrayal of the Separatist Council. Initially, there was supposed to be a storyline explaining how the Separatist Parliament lost its power to the council. Unfortunately, with the cancellation of the series, this story was never explored.
In the original Expanded Universe (EU), the Separatist movement was entirely controlled by large corporations, making their influence straightforward and unified. However, the *Clone Wars* series introduced diversity within the Separatist ranks, showcasing various factions and motivations. While this added complexity and depth, the show failed to clarify why the Separatist Council played such a critical role in Revenge of the Sith. This left a narrative gap in understanding the council's significance within the broader story.
@@zacharycherif5525 blame Disney for that one of the tho ha I agree are fair to blame disney
@@PteranoLiv disney's only involvement with tcw was season 7, everything before that was lucas and friends
People always talk about how Dave filoni saved the clone wars and Star Wars. His decisions did as much damage to the lore as much as any of the sequels. Especially with his focus on Ashoka where her presence ceases to really make sense after Star Wars rebels. Instead of having Vader kill her she ends up being saved and just goes from a regular Jedi to completely over powered. He said that it would take Sidious and Vader to beat her. But it just goes on.
The validity of these criticisms aside, saying that TCW damaged the lore as much as the Sequels did is a bit of a stretch and unfair. The Sequels are simply on a different level of franchise-destroying.
So yeah, it's a REALLY GREAT thing that Rex was created to 'replace' Alpha... I don't even want to imagine how badly Alpha would have been ruined.
Also the Timeline issue gets even worse when you notice that the time frame for various stories/events take place later in Canon than they did in Legends (eg: I think it's mentioned that the Inhibitor Chip arc takes place in 20 BBY in Legends vs 19 BBY in Canon). Moving events to later in the Clone Wars would've created its own problems for Legends (mainly when it got to overloading events into the early months of 19 BBY since Legends gave exact days and months for when significant events from films like RotS took place) but it would've given preexisting events more room to breathe.
Alpha would have been too brutal for the Clone Wars.
As a slight advocate here, I'll say filoni kinda followed the rule from Lucas that "if it's not on film, then it's not canon." He kinda used that for a lot of things when making the series, and the alleged reason for making the movie first was to establish that the clone wars series is part of the new canon. So yeah, loved the show, and do agree that a few places have questions that need answers, but it's still a good show
26:45 I like the new story they put down for her. I wasn't a real fan of everyone constantly crapping on her character and killing her one way or another constantly in stories and books (and deleted story concepts). She's a genuinely good character and a great antagonist
Great post
The Mortis Gods are ... convenient scapegoats for a lot of the timeline screwiness; I can even see the whole business with them in Season 3 splitting the timeline into three paths, two similar yet distinct paths with fairly minor differences, and a third with greater differences but that shares some key events with the other two.
And honestly, the retcon they used to meld the two different versions of Mandalore was kinda the obvious one, at least to me.
I think the biggest problem with TCW is how everything feels out of place. Yes, you can blame George Lucas for some of the decisions, but it was FIloni's refusal to honor the original material that made the show feel like a fan fiction. There were moments in TCW that felt more like a generic sci fi series than Star Wars. To me, I think the show tried way to hard to fix what people didn't like about the prequel trilogy and instead of fixing it properly, it changed almost everything to make it superior, especially with how Anakin went from a teenage brat who always wanted to show off to a guy who acts like that charismatic uncle you get along with very well.
Filoni should have followed the EU much more closely while still writing great stories.
@@gigerdevoter5577 i mean he was getting blessings from lucas, sooo...
anakin's fine tho
@@gamingtime468 NO HE'Z NOT ! i NEED MY BRAT BACK !! [NOT YELLiNG, JUZT LiKE TYPiNG iN CAPZ]
I think this "cool" and kind side of Anakin could have worked if Anakin was also shown to be dark, like in previous works, like he's kind and caring to those close to him, but if you're not that close, he won't have a problem massacring you
So many of the changes could have easily been avoided. Use a different name for whatever planet, or create use a different race of Jedi that hasn't been used before, instead of stealing a name because you are too lazy to use a new one.
Far as I see it, a lot of recent star wars writers just want to write a star wars story without having to deal with everything that comes with being a star wars story. There is a place for that, it's called fanfic.
Honestly I remember when The Clone Wars came out, the Mandalorian stuff by Travis was retconned. People were angry about it and hate it.
For me I barely saw the material. I read Boba Fett crossfire where Boba met Aura and guess what, they are working together in at the end of Season 2.
Yeah the Ventress retcon was weird because dark disciple was done by Lucas daughter. You would think it's canon but they changed that. So what happened to Master Vos?
We know he was working with the Jedi Underground (canonically), so at least survived O66
Beyond that? Who knows... though I'd be hoping he's living his best life with Khaleen
@@Sephiroth144 that is my headcanon
Here’s the thing with the retcon game George approved all of them before Disney and he has never cared about EU material if it has anything to do with his main storyline that didn’t fit his vision the clone commandos are definitely a good example
Barriss Offee being evil was the one that did it for me. In the books she's the perfect jedi, literally.
Genuine question. Can these really be considered retcons? Like the EU/Legends despite common belief was never canon. As George saw it as an alternative universe, and not his vision. If The stories weren't canon and not made by the creator, Isn't it essentially a fanfic? So George or Filoni changing it doesn't really make a retcon.
Like yeah it really sucks for those authors who worked so hard to contribute to Star Wars. But at the end of the day, G-canon was always above them and their work was always available to be disregarded.
Yes they are retcons because the EU was considered canon. it was considered canon by Lucasfilm and Lucasfilm licensing. whether or not George considered a cannon is up for debate. there are many, many quotes from him that conflict with each other. when it comes to George, actions speak louder than words, and his actions clearly show he wasn't all too concerned with staying in line with the EU. So, in short, George did not really consider it Canon to him personally. but to Lucasfilm and Lucasfilm licensing, it was indisputably canon. not even up for a debate. ask yourself this, if it was never cannon to begin with, why did Disney have to decanonize it?
I just don't think it is fair to complain about inconsistencies with the EU. The EU was never canon, in spite of what a lot of fans want to think. Lucas himself was heavily involved with Clone Wars and its story. Whereas he has always been clear that the EU was not canon. So while the Clone Wars was originally created before the Sequels and newer canon, it was always intended to be considered canon. The EU was not.
this is a pretty common falsehood that has passed around. The EU was most definitely can and according to Lucasfilm and Lucasfilm licensing. That's not even up for debate. now, if we're talking about whether or not Lucas himself considered a cannon, that's a different matter. If you want to judge Canon by what Lucas explicitly considered Canon, then fine. but according to Lucasfilm and Lucasfilm licensing, it was indisputably canon.
@@CT-316 Lucasfilm ≠ Lucasfilm Licensing. They were separate companies. Lucasfilm was George Lucas. Lucasfilm Licensing was Howard Roffman. And yeah, it was never effectively canon. Even in the prefaces for some novels it said as much, this is not what happens for real, just an interpretation, that does not come from Lucas. If the guy who made Star Wars, made the movies, made the characters of Anakin, Luke and others, made it all says that Anakin has a Padawan, Luke doesn't get married and Mandalorians are white, blonde pacifists on a barren wasteland planet living in cubes - then it is clear, that all that EU licensing material is not, in fact, canon. It may be canon to itself, but it is not canon to the stuff that actually matters: films and television. Whereas EU fanboys tend to pretend as if everything was this one, unified canon. No, it wasn't. The Licensing was separate. Movies & TV-shows were separate. Therefore, complaining about the fact that one world is not aligning with the other is pointless. I don't see people complaining about Boba Fett being a clone, instead of Jaster Mereel, or clone wars being a bunch of droids vs clones of boba fett, or Ki-Adi Mundi being a Knight on the council with a harem of wives, and so on. It is clear that Lucafilm Licensing was saying it was canon for real only as a marketing trick, to make Star Wars fans buy all those comics and books, to present them as "official continuations." Well, they weren't. And it imploded when Lucas had actually decided to make his own series and movies.
@@ziggystardust5209 I apologize for not getting the nitpicky detail correct regarding Lucasfilm and Lucasfilm licensing correct. And you basically said what I already said. Yes it was considered Canon to itself. but, that's not the entire truth. Yes, like I already stated explicitly, if George is the definitive standard for what you were defining is true cannon and what actually matters, then yes, the expanded universe was never cannon. but regarding the licensing and the official expanded Universe continuity, it was definitely canon.
Also, what's with the hostile tone?
@@CT-316Hostile? I don't think I was, lol. Sorry you felt that way. I just don't really see the point of this video and most of this comment section. It'd be one thing if this was just an academical examination of differences between Lucas' show and the EU, presented in an honest, unbiased way. But right off the bat, this is presented as "filoni retconned this and this he stomped on it click it!!!", and this video tries to argue as if TCW was EU, therefore it retconned something, when both Lucas and Filoni had said from the start that it was not, in fact, EU. This video mentions Lucas exactly once in the very end in the context of the much misinterpreted Holocron database hierarchy system, and that's it.
I feel that the Barriss Offee arc in Tales of the Empire would’ve been better suited as a book before reconning in animation
Especially considering she was originally executed after Order 66
Much like George Lucas, Dave is at his best when working with other writers who help develop his ideas and reign in his worse impulses. If you really love Clone Wars, you should also be thanking Henry Gilroy, Drew Z. Greenberg, Steven Melching, and Katie Lucas and not just giving all the credit to Dave Filoni.
This is one of the best star wars channels on UA-cam
...Not sure why people expect a franchise spanning... how many decades now?.. that anyone willing to pay Lucas $5 could add their piece to to have anything even resembling consistency.
Because they could at least try. They used to back when people had actual passion for storytelling and world building, but now all people want to do is tell a star wars story and not give damn about continuity. Which, like it or not, has damning ramifications on star wars as a whole.
Sheev talks video on the clone wars DOES NOT HOLD UP was right and accurate 😂.
@@ChinonsoNnadozie sheev’s video on “TCW doesn’t hold up” sucks ass. TCW does hold up and it’s great, he went through the clone wars watching it convinced already that it would suck and that it retcons legends stuff, guess what? Retcons ≠ bad the majority of TCW’s retcons where excellent: maul, Ahsoka and the clones are the highlights! Yes it has some bad stuff but EVERYTHING HAS BAD STUFF including the EU
@PteranoLiv nope he was right,they retconed so many characters back stories, turned general grevious and count dooku into idiots and cowards,
Introduced so many world breaking concepts and got Anakin characterization from the sequel trilogy wrong and stagnant, inconsistent maps,bad arks, characterization of mace windu who is different from his movie counterpart. one of the good things about the show was the clones,maul ,order 66 and the Jedi( even that is inconsistent).
They should‘ve shown some really dark moments in the show, like the Battle of Jabiim
Geestly’s Thank you, you are the best Star Wars channels, always non biased and objective more Star Wars fans should be like you
Agreed
@ welp guess we agree on some and disagree on some DONT we mate?
I love the healthy criticism here. I will always stay with this channel. love the lack of bias, it is very clear the folks who run this channel truly care about starwars and only want to see it do better. not milk it for profit or create some kind of bs safe space where we cant criticize what we love.
YES! YES! Speak your truth mate!
To be fair, CW was mostly Lucas's baby not filoni's. And he has expressly said in the past that he doesnt feel bound to the EU which he didnt write
I agree with what Sheev Talks said (in their Clone Wars retrospective) that Barriss Offee was handled very poorly in that show, but she was handled terribly in Tales of Empire as well.
Three episodes of 20 minutes each...60 minutes in total to talk about years of a character's life.
We could remain faithful to the previous idea of Barriss as incarcerated under the Republic, but if we really wanted to make her an inquisitor, we needed not only to give her more space in this capacity, making clear the torment between using the dark side and serving a regime and Jedi training (with all due respect to the bomb planted during the war, but... you know, the damage had already been done), but also avoiding having Barriss meet Vader.
Because if Barriss doesn't know who Vader is, he knows her very well... and seeing that she has no reaction to the person who falsely accused her apprentice is pure laziness.
Not to mention the concept, poorly brought to the screen, of force healing... a concept that already existed in the EU and was associated with Barriss, but which needed to be understood in its facets (i.e., showing how using that ability consumed the own existence, visible at times, but never explicitly said), not to mention the idiotic death they gave to her.
@@Toshiro93 i really dislike sheev talks review on the clone wars, it’s INCREDIBLY biased and you can tell it’s from someone who watch TCW comvinced it “wouldn’t hold up” compare that to geestly’s (the guys who made this videoH who are objective and unbiased in every way. They acknowledge good and bad if everything and how it scales up and in terms of quality, while TCW has some REALLY bad arcs it overall is an ANAZING SHOW, and it’s peaks are the peaks of the franchise just like Andor or KOTOR
I think Lucas, not Filoni is to blame here. Lucas has a well known false ignorance of the EU despite taking elements of it. He wanted to make everything HIS idea for the new show and wanted to tell The Clone Wars as HIS story. Remember, Lucas was heavily involved for all but the final seasons. Lucas is known for his HUGE ego so he would take ideas that were carefully laid out by EU authors and put them in places where they didn't make sense but to him he was writing his OWN Clone Wars.
It's Lucas' franchise, he's not obligated to cater to other writers.
@@willfanofmanyii3751No one said otherwise. He's just pointing out that Lucas had an ego and did not play well with others. was he obligated to follow other people's stories? No. No one is saying that.
I dont care how they did it but Im so glad they brought back assaj ventress. Shes one of my favorite characters. I really feel like the bad batch did her justice and her changes felt like a logical growth. Im biased though because anyway to bring her closer to a live action return Ill love. Im so hopping they bring her back to join forces with Ashoka in season 2 or 3 of Ashoka.
How i see it is star wars is a long time ago in a galaxy far far away. Therefore what we are witnessing is a recollection of what happened, which with time has been interpreted in different ways, thus giving us different versions of the same story
The true Star Wars had always laid with George Lucas, the original creator, and he had precious little to do with the EU. Also, 99% things TCW did differently from the EU, are on Lucas, not Filoni. Filoni was just the guy Lucas hired to run the day-to-day production, but the show Filoni made was exactly the show Lucas wanted to be made. Therefore TCW didn't retcon anything, because the EU was never the true story to begin with. It was licensed fanfiction. Garbage tier fanfiction at that.
I love this channel
I’ve gotten into a conflict with someone saying that Lucas loved Legends, I personally don’t believe it, largely because he has been pretty vocal on what some character changes, with Grievous being a pure example and some of these were pre-Disney and largely because I hate comics and other supplemental material. And as much as I love Filoni, he and Lucas are in many ways responsible for the franchise being what it is now. From prequels to currently.
The prequels are great films though, Episode 3 is literally the best Star Wars film
@@adnanjusufovic5177 george hated the EU, I also get into a fight recently with a super sad person regarding that
Lucas loved Legends or more accurately, it made him lots of money. And he loved money.
@ Lucas didn’t like legends mate, he didn’t like it at all
@@PteranoLivYes he did actually. He even referenced it multiple times.
Sorry guys, I know a bunch of you are really invested in the old EU, but Disney decannonized it for a really good reason. It really creates issues with telling new stories and bringing in new fans to the IP. Don't get me wrong, Disney is killing Star Wars, but I shouldn't be expected to have remembered some trivial dialogue in a 30 year old EU comic to understand a reference on a screen. I don't treat anything that is not a motion picture production as canon.
As someone who did grow up with many Clone Wars EU media, I didn’t mind TCW’s existence or the fact that Dave Filoni was behind it, but in hindsight, I definitely think Filoni should’ve had Ahsoka die in Rebels so that her Character Arc could wrap up nicely.
@@oriongear2499 i agree there, she should’ve died not during order 66 but in her duel with vader
Filoni is actually overrated. He's basically in love with Ahsoka and wants her in everything and outwardly hates the Empire and Stormtroopers, hence why he makes them incompetent as HELL whenever he gets the chance to like in the Mandalorian.
Stormtroopers have been made to look incompetent since ANH 😂
George himself said that all EU stories were canon until he decided to change things. Why are we complaining about trivial retcons when this stuff isn’t even canon anymore?
Because it set a damning precedent that has hindered the stability of star wars' world building and needs to be addressed if we have any hope of pulling star wars out of the mess it is in.
I bet you're fun at parties...
@@kirby7294 "Stability of Star Wars world building", LMAO
Why was clone wars a war between Boba Fett clones and robots saying roger roger, and not whatever Zahn described?
Why was Boba Fett a clone of some guy named Jango Fett, and not Jaster Mereel from Concord Dawn?
Why was Ki-Adi Mundi a Jedi Knight on the council with a harem of wives, when the movies were explicit that only knights could be on the council and Jedi could never marry?
I could go on and on. You guys are such hypocrites. Lucas never gave a damn about EU or your "worldbuilding". And he contradicted it with the movies without a second thought. And he contradicted it with The Clone Wars without a second thought. Because his vision > 3rd party merchandize written by someone else. And he would have done it again, by pulling Darth Talon out of Legacy and placing her 5 years after ROTJ as Maul's apprentice. Just cuz he liked the design, you know? Because he owned the entire thing, could take what he liked, disregard what he didn't like, and do what he wanted - and he had complete right to do so.
@ziggystardust5209 The first half of your argument is irrelevant. Stating events in the story with little context doesn't prove or disprove either point. And second, you're right. Lucas had every right to do whatever he wanted with star wars and it would have been terrible. Lucas isn't some infallible saint and we, the fans, have the right to express our concerns when something isn't right. Blindly following whatever is thrown your way because the people who did it are the ones in power is exactly how we get in the mess we're in to begin with.
I feel like the Clone Wars TV show should be retroactively made Canon *only* and not Legends, just so that the original Clone Wars timeline can have its place in Legends.
you can blame filoni all you want while blinded by nostalgia but nothing happened in tcw without george approving it, except probably season 7. also feel the need to say that lucas himself always only considered the movies and tcw as his star wars, the rest was just there.
edit: cant retcon something that was never canon to begin with
just because Lucas gave approval doesn't automatically mean those decisions were good.
@@CT-316 well thats not what im saying so i agree
I'm actually glad the original clone ars cartoon is no longer canon for one reason and one reason only. There's one short where Mace Windu single-handedly destroys an entire droid army by himself along with a giant superweapon. It looked cool but it creates a glaring inconsistency with what Jedi and Mace in particular are shown to be capable of in Episode: II, specifically the Arena. If Mace Windu alone is capable of taking down an entire droid army single-handedly then why did so many Jedi die in the Geonosis arena? Mace could have wiped that entire army out himself if the 2003 cartoon is to be believed so why didn't he? Did he just let his fellow Jedi die for shits and giggles??
Something that always trips me up about the prequel trilogy is Anakin and Griveous meeting on the Invisible Hand. Grievous tells Anakain that “he would have expected someone with his reputation to be a bit older and Anakin replies to him with “General Greivous, you’re shorter than I imagined. This implies that they are meeting for the first time in Revenge of the Sith. However, in TCW, There are episodes such the battle of kamino and the episode where R2 goes missing during the space battle between Anakin and General Greivous that implies that they have previously met each other before. I don’t know much about Expanded Universe content and lore in Star Wars, but these changes make it confusing because there are multiple sources of content saying different things about characters.
What Geetsly is say i definitely agree with the mess ups or incincistanceys etc but at the end of the day since TCW isn't continued at the moment I'm thankful for all of it the old and the new. I think they all have there place of course I wish say the mandalorian arc was more consistent with what was before same with ryloth or even all the jedi events during order 66 etc. But TCW is one of the funnest and greatest young tv shows that has been created! Keep up the awesome content Geetslys! Been watching you for a long time!
Filoni is lucky that Disney bought SW in 2012 and proceeded to F*** It for the next twelve years. This made his sins against the work of everyone else other than himself seem insignificant in comparison, his public image would be way more negative If not for that. Especially because I have no doubts that he would make Rebels right after TCW, and It would simply ignore everything The Force Unleashed stablished about the creation of the Rebel Alliance in favour of Ezra and his OCs. And I have nothing against Rebels mind you ( _other than Ahsoka being ressurected after the perfect conclusion of her arc in Twilight of the Apprentice_ ), but It would NEVER fit in the continuity of the EU.
Bruh TFU’s revel story sucks ASS! It doesn’t fit the actual canon of the main films
I wouldnt have minded Adi Gallia's death if they had bothered to flesh out her character and not abandoned her EU backstory. Her character never got to have humour and reasoning that was hinted and her death was treated nowhere near Even Piells
Tales of the Empire confirmed the presence of other clans on Dathomir.
This is why I've grown to become in favor of the old Clone Wars multimedia project. It feels like a natural story that takes place in between AOTC and ROTS while TCW took far too many liberties with the lore.
There are a couple things I prefer in TCW(it's versions of Plo Koon, Kit Fisto, the Clone troopers etc), but more often than not the TCW version of certain characters and stories are inferior to what came before IMO.(Republic comics Vos > Dark Disciple Vos. Swamp gas > Blue Shadow virus. Force Harvester > Malevolence. Jabiim > Umbara. Etc.)
Honestly the Dark Lord trilogy(consisting of Labyrinth of Evil, ROTS novelization, Rise of Darth Vader) is my favorite piece of Star Wars media ever, and a near perfect series finale to the Clone Wars multimedia project.
Imagine a animated clone wars story about Anakin before he gets knighted and struggling with his cybernetic arm after loosing to Dooku and Durge and Ventress are the main early villains. Anakin is still Obi Wans Padawan and we also see him get his scar and meet Rex for the very first time.All this a short prequel to the animated clone wars series!
Personally it isn't a retcon for me if it didn't retcon something that happened on screen. TV and movie events are a higher level of cannon in my opinion and books are supplemental. If a TV show or movie contradicts books, comics, or video games then, in my opinion, it is the books/comics/video games that are wrong not the show or movie. They have always been wrong we just didn't know it yet
I had this stuff pointed out to me years ago. It caused me to go back and reread the Republic comics and see just how it impacted things. Now I feel ripped off.
So what I'm understanding is that there were already two Clone Wars timelines that existed before Disney even got involved and separated things into Canon and Legends. Interesting.
Everyone else has woken up to this mans lack of respect towards lore.
Hes not as good as people make hin out to be (good, but not perfect).
It seems the only person willing to still support him, 100% is SW Theory. (When i say people, i mean content creators)
Blame George, not dave
@PteranoLiv nope. Blaming the dude who pushed for it. Sorry, can't change my mind.
@ welp your wrong then, whether you like it or not
@PteranoLiv nah, the dude throwing tantrum, and the dude supporting him, that's you, are wrong.
@ very convincing argument mate
There countless proof that George is responsible for TCW and also how he disliked the EU
Even though it's not possible to remove it from Legends completely... I just head canon it and all other content linked to the show's version of the Clone Wars out of Legends (and replace the characters in my favourite arcs with less seen Jedi).
Although, aside from it being Abeloth's origin, how directly tied are The Ones to the events of 'Fate of the Jedi'?
I like think of it as events that did happen but was exaggerated by Republic propaganda. As for the Ones, if I remember right, they have no impact on Fate of the Jedi, just Abeloth. It was more of a weak attempt to tie the Legacy era to Clone Wars.
You can absolutely remove all of TCW from the Legends time-line and leave it for Canon where it honestly fits much better.
The ones barely tie into the expanded universe and the fate of the Jedi. aside from the in-universe Book of Sith source book and the final book in The Fate of the Jedi series, the mortise gods barely have anything to do with the EU. And it's also worth keeping in mind that the fate of the Jedi series takes place during one of the most controversial eras in the expanded universe, that being the legacy. aside from the legacy comics, pretty much everything taking place after the new Jedi order series is very controversial and many people headcanon them out of their timelines anyways.
@@CT-316 Ok, I'll make a judgement on it for myself on whether to ignore Fate of the Jedi when I get there but without the context of the novels, I'll just assume any references to the Ones are minimal enough that I can just get rid of that arc from the Legends Timeline along with the rest of the show.
Also given how I think the references to them in Book of Sith are set pre TCW, I think it's vague enough to head canon that reference as an in universe myth (although I head canon that the Nightsister part doesn't exist for obvious reasons)... unlike The Jedi Path which has Ahsoka as one of the characters making side notes throughout. I can't remember which but in one of those books, Luke basically just shrugs and says he can't understand the chronology of the Clone Wars which feels like the writer being meta and finding a place in the text to say "How the hell am I meant to make the two versions fit together?!"
While I can appreciate the EU content, I don't see it as DEFINITIVE because it was never directly from George Lucas. So I take the movies and the shows as Cannon and the EU as more of a thought experiment. This coming from someone who loved the Timothy Zahn books when they came out. I did not see it as "fixed" as the movies (then just the Original Trilogy). So I am not upset and you have characters like Shark Ti who has at least FOUR different deaths in various Star Wars media. So, not worth getting upset over.🤔👍✨
Other than members of the original EU not being dead, I agree with Sam Wittwer’s idea that these are like campfire stories. They’re going to be confusing and rife with continuity errors.
Feloni is much like Lucas honestly. He sucks ass without a team of supportive writers.
I agree, that's why I call him Little Lucas.
Being completely fair, Traviss claimed to have left mainly for contractual issues, while the canon issues were only a secondary problem.
I honestly like the mandarlorian change. Because a warrior society like them would realistically blow themselves up, like the krogan for example. Seriously look at tachanka.
he should not be allowed to do this period. he needs to stop getting away with it bc hes currently ruining star wars imo. he even retcons his own work. its disgusting honestly; he has too much power
People often blame Filoni, which I always thought was garbage. NOTHING on that show was done without the approval or blessing of George Lucas.
Also, the narrative that the clone wars supposedly retconned things is also false because a lot of the stuff people claimed got retconned are things that George never viewed as Canon in the first place
Exactly george was never beholden to the EU and i value his word over any eu lore
@@Jedishill680
Well, the EU seems to be a lot more popular nowadays than the Canon, isn't it? George had been down for some changes before, so really it just depended on his mood
Stop bringing George up whatever someone has something negative to say about Filoni
George's approval is a loose term. Remember, Revan and Darth Bane episode was lacking only a proper render and voices before it could be finished until George suddenly interrupted and realized that With can't do that thing
@@Jedishill680 I'm tired of pretending like Lucas's ideas are automatically better than anything else just because it's titled to be his. Talon and Maul for sequels is a terrible idea, Luke as hermit is a terrible idea, Anakin having a padawan is terrible idea, Grievous as moustache twirling villain is rudimentary terrible idea and etc.
If you are gonna blame Filoni for retcons in Clone Wars, you should also put it on Lucas himself, anything that happened in the Clone Wars show was also his doing too. Any changes like for example Anakin having a padawan, was his idea. Everything Filoni did was okayed by George. It's fine to criticize the man, I don't like some changes he has done, but he still did more good than bad. Lucas never really cared for the extended universe, I mean the dude hates Mara Jade and we all know if he was gonna make sequels, all of that would've been retconned anyways. Legends and canon are two different continuities, and legends ( especially comics and books ) are always on the chopping block of getting retconned. This has always been a thing with Star Wars and it will never change.
Honestly, it feels like people are now hating on him for no other reason than for attention since it is meta, few years ago all of you were pretty much sucking him off, but now just wanna appeal to the majority. Just like Star Wars Theory went from "I am fine with sequels" to "oh look at me, I hate them too ha ha, please love me".
Yeah, same here, he did things still better than what Kathleen Kennedy and Leslye does currently. He was Lucas' padawan and though flawed, his visions were closest to Lucas and Star Wars as a whole. Now we have Force feminisers and sith simpathisers that know nothing about the franchise yet allowed to be at the helm. Wtf
yeah but we've all known that lucas can be an idiot. this whole "lucas is flawless" narrative was started by disney shills as a way to attack the old eu.
I agree, although imo Dave did more harm than good and like you mentioned, George shares blame as much as Filoni, perhaps even more as he agreed with many of the things Filoni executed.
Anakin never should have had a Padawan, and if they really wanted Ahsoka to be in the story, she should've been Plo Koon's apprentice for starters. I still have no clue of how on earth these two thought it was a wise idea to have her be mentored by Anakin when the Jedi literally didn't trust him with a seat on the council, let alone to have a student of his own when they even gave Obi-Wan trouble for it back in TPM?
It's called growth. Star Wars theory had years to sit back and reflect, and he came to the logical conclusion that the Sequel Trilogy sucked and Disney Star Wars was canceraids. It's really not hard to understand. Sure, there will always be grifters, but I genuinely believe most people making content are fans that hate the direction the franchise has taken over the last decade.
@@RubenMakaya Dave Filoni created Ahsoka ( Ashla at the time ) to be some elses padawan, an orginal character by Filoni, but Geroge told him she is to be Anakins padawan. The origina conecpt for Clone Wars wasn't gonna center around Anakin, Ahsoka and the rest.
for my sake of thought i treat the old EU and current star wars different timelines or universes all of its star wars the the stories and power scaling is different, like the clone wars show and mini series both i keep in line with the movies 1-6 but the mini series i like the keep with old EU same with force unleashed (for jedi fallen order and jedi survivor i keep line with the clone wars show) as all those stories and events were really good and go in line with eachother telling a really good and prolonged story. (in short i love both for like i said for the sake of mine i treat both as different time lines and power scaling, i would also like to see the old EU stories be continued in some way like something new for old EU/legends now)
🤔 . . . There is probably ONE of Dave Filoni’s stories that might explain this: _Star Wars: Rebels_ : _World between Worlds_ . If that ‘story arc’ is true, then what we have here is a _Star Wars_ multiverse at play here & such…
It should be as simple as the Clone Wars 2008 is Canon and only canon, not legends, it fixes nearly if not every problem. Simply makes the Clone Wars 2008 books like the movie novelization, Wild Space, and No Prisoners canon and as well as the 2008 clone wars games such as Jedi Alliance, Lightsaber Duels and Republic Heroes.
So what does the Lucas Story Group ACTUALLY do? Allegedly they work with creators to tell stories that fit within the universe without conflicting with existing canon. Are these people just paid for a lofty ideal? Obviously they get ignored whenever certain people are involved. So what’s the point in having that team?
Star Wars "canon" has always been at the whims of Lucas
Greedo shot first. (in short, it has NEVER had a consistent canon)
Meh, my exposure with the multimedia project just makes it feel a bit overrated. Doesn't help that it feels like it suffers from being made between movies so everything is Attack of The Clones inspired until right before Revenge of The Sith comes out and suddenly everything changes to fit that movie.
While The clone wars is technically considered canon to the old EU, there's a reason most legends fans treat the 2008 show as non canon, and it's because of all the retconning and inconsistencies.
you can treat is as non canon as you want, its still canon at the end of the day and the eu isnt
@@rvds2040 and star wars is worse off for it.
The comments on this video didn’t bother watching it at all, they just came to hate filoni and TCW, geestly’s himself said it: TCW is great but it has mistakes and this mistakes are more so George’s fault than filoni’s in old interviews filoni was willing to keep the old EU intact but George differed and this is not new: remember all of the content he retconned while making the prequels: the old clone wars story which was forced into the new story, none fett being a stormtrooper etc. so pls stop pretending the EU is “George’s Star Wars” or that it’s retroactively better than Disney canon: I personally love both and criticize both, if I had to choose which one is better I’d say the old EU BUT out of longevity, it’s produced more content than Disney’s canon and therefore more stuff is good despite legends shortcomings. But canon has ALOT of great stuff despite the retcons who h have been in legends aswell since THE VERY BEGGINING
@@PteranoLiv Wrong
@@lukescrew1981 Wrong about what?
@@Black-White-BW1 Everything
18:32 nah that's a crazy frame to go with
Feeling Adi Gallia dying to Grevious or Savage were both fine but Bareisn Offee is something else
George Lucas never liked the Expanded Universe, dude. That's why he picked and chose the stuff he liked about it to use in The Clone Wars. He said, "The only things that are canon are the movies and TV shows". Of course, this was BEFORE Disney bought LucasFilms, but everyone seems to have forgotten that.
He literally says that in the video
@@FoxHoundUnit90 Then why does he have a problem with Filoni and his retcons of the EU, if Lucas did the same thing?
@@Hewylewisbecause you can be critical of both. Retconning established lore for no reason is really stupid
@@RedHairedWarlord Even if the lore came from non-canon books?
Ah, so are people wrong in saying that George Lucas would save current Star War?
Thank you. Everyone thinks filoni is a god send to the franchise and in a lot of ways he was but in a lot of ways he did nerf the lore
Now I will try to be as calm, respectful, and honest in my comment on this matter, just as you have been Grand Master Geetsly, but if I fail I apologize in advance.
I love Star Wars The Clone Wars. I have many fond memories of watching it on Fridays night on Cartoon Network back in the day and then watching the rerun next morning on Saturday alongside the new Pokemon episode that would air. It is still an important part of my life today, as usually on my days off from work I watch one or two episodes on Disney+ while I eat breakfast. Star Wars may not be my all-time favorite franchise out there, but I can say with 100% certaintly that The Clone Wars is my all-time favorite TV Show. However, despite all that, I can still freely admit that there were many great stories from Legends that got unfairly retconned out and that despite how much I love the show and respect Dave Filoni and the his crew as great writers, they really should have tried harder to keep some of these Legends stories in continuity or at least try to create their own versions of some of these events.
However, I must also play Gritina's advocate here and try to defend some of these retcons and descions, not just from the Clone Wars, but many that have come about in recent years. Now the main argument, one that while I don't fully agree with I do understand, is that manys fans are just going to watch the movies and TV shows not read the books of comics. So its kind of unfair to deny Star Wars fans from seeing some aspects of the franchise by locking it behind stuff they just have no interest in. Movies and TV are more closely linked to each other. Some people probably only know about stuff involving Mandalorians because they watched TCW and The Mandalorian. Some people would never know what happened to Ventress after TCW got cancled if they didn't read the book staring her and Vos, and some people probably don't want to read a book, so I can understand bringing her back in The Bad Batch or depicting the showdown between Boba Fett and Cad Bane in the Book of Boba Fett because the cancelation of TCW meant we never got to see it like it was intended to be. Although, I am a little biased on the Vventtress point because I love her and I also love hearing Nika Futterman(Ventress's voice actress) in Star Wars and not just The Loud House.
Like I said, this is the main argument and I don't fully agree with it since books and comics have just as much work and creativtly pored into them as Movies and TV shows, as you stated yourself, Grand Master Geetsly. But I must be honest and say I do agree a little with this argument, mainly because of the type of fan I am. You see, I really don't like to read comics and books. They are not my thing. I just am a TV show and Movie guy mostly. When the Clone Wars Multi-Media project was happening I was mostly unaware of it, as the time between episodes 2 and 3, I just watched the 2003 Clone Wars Micro-Series when it aired on Cartoon Network, and played the orignal Battlefront and Battlefront 2 games. That was my only exposure to the Multi-Medi project, so when I first started watching The Clone Wars when it aired I didn't see any problems with it I just assumed it happened in-between Chapters 21 and 22 of the Micro-Series, because it made sense to me, the first 21 Chapters involve Anakin getting Knight and introduces Grevious and Ventress all three things that are major parts of TCW. I didn't learn about the rest of the Multi-Media until some time after TCW was cancled and ended back in 2013. So I didn't learn about all the contiunity, timeline, and other issues until much later. Like how Anakin was only made a Jedi Knight 2 and half years into the war. Which on a side note, I'd like to go off on a tanget and say how the way Chapter 21 of the Micro-Series is framed makes no sense when you know the actual timeline:
So Chapter 21 dipicts the end of the Battle Hypori which takes place 4 months into the Clone Wars. Then we get that scene of the Jedi Council debating on weather or not to make Anakin a Jedi Knight. However, they only got to this point after discussing how dangerous and powerful Grevious, including mentioning the stuff at Hypori with Mundi saying, "When was the last time someone stood up to five Jedi and held his own?" and deciding they need more Jedi Knights to help with Greivous. So the way Chapter 21 frames things it seems like this debate and Anakin's Knighting only takes place like a few days after Hypori because they dicussing the events that happened there. However, the timeline of the Multi Media project reveals Hypori taking place 4 months into the Clone Wars and Anakin becoming a Jedi Knight happens 30 months into the Clone Wars. So that means the Council either waited 2 years and 2 months after Hypori to talk about what happened at Hypori or they debate weather or not to make Anakin a Knight for 2 years and 2 months, either one paints to the Council as stupid for taking so long.
Sorry about the tanget, back to the main topic. So yeah, I didn't learn about the full details about the rest of The Clone Wars Multi Media project until after TCW first ended back in 2013. However, like I said I'm not really a comic or book guy, so I acquired my knowledge of the Multi Medi project, as well as other Legends stuff through different means, mostly just reading stuff on the Star Wars Wookipedia and watching many great UA-camrs make videos on this stuff, including the great Grand Master Geetsly himself. I acquired my knowledge my own way and have at least a decent amount of it, still nothing compared to the knowledge Grand Master Geetsly possess, of course. And through this method I learn about a lot of great stories like the Battle of Jabiim and the Siege of Salecumi, the story of one of my all-time favorite Jedi Dass Jennier, the greatness that is Grand Admiral Thrawn and so on. I don't think the way I enjoy Star Wars makes me any less of a fan, just like those who choose to only watch TV shows and Movies and not learn anything else are less fans. After all, we all enjoy something in our own ways.
However, despite again not being a comic or book guy, I still like what I do know about these stories and really wish TCW kept some of the other stuff from the Multi Media project. In fact, I have written many fanfics where I take a Clone Wars Legends battle and try to fit it into the New Canon by combiding elements from both, as well as a few of my own ideas. And I try to be as respectful and accurate to the Legends stories as reasonably possible. Again, I don't really read comics but I look up comic book pages from the stories online on free comic book reading websites, and while I don't read the entire story, just get the stuff I need I try to be as accurate and respectful as possible in my research and writing. For instances, for my Fanfic of the Battle of Jabiim, I make Ahsoka one of the 29 Jedi at Jabiim, meaning we only have 26 Jedi killed instead of 27, I don't have Obi-Wan captured by Ventress, but I do have her injure him and Rex to take them out of the fight for a while, and speaking of Ventress because of her presence at the battle in Legends I make her a much bigger player here then in the actual battle since all we know from the actual Legends battle is she captured Obi-Wan and Alpha-17, letting her get a few Jedi kills, inclding members of the Padawan Pack and since I set the battle just before Dooku betrays her at Sullest like in TCW it serves as a good way to justify Sidious concerns that she's getting to powerful with how much she beats the Jedi on Jabiim. I also add Grevious to the battle to give him more Jedi kills, inculding Leska whose death I alter in my version, because I want to make Grevious at least a decent threat and I think if 26 Jedi were killed at this battle two very skilled Jedi killers like Ventress and Grevious should be there. However, some deaths still happen like they did in the actual battle to be faithful to original story like that Twe'lek Jedi who Alto Stratus cuts the head off of, or like the member of the Padawan Pack that got crushed under the wheel of a Hailfire Droid, or how the last member of the Padawan Pack takes Alto Stratus down with her and so on. I also alter the ending to fit better with TCW's depiction of the Jedi, at least the good ones like Obi-Wan, Anakin, Ahsoka, Plo Koon, and so on, where while the Republic lose at Jabiim and are forces to retreat they do at least get the Loyalists off the planet too, by hiring Hondo(the only one crazy enough to run the Separatist blockaid for money) to give them some extra ships since the Republic doesn't have enough to spare to go to evacute everyone on Jabiim. I try my best with these stories to be as faithful to these Legends battles as possible to give them the respect and love they deserve, while also being fair to TCW's views on things and my own personal views and ideas.
But these are just my own person thoughts on all the retcons and what Star Wars has been doing in recent years. Maybe you have a different view on things, which is okay.
At this point, his work should be entirely expunged. Especially his portrayal of the clones.
I am glad to see this channel come from a countdown of the best things from Star Wars, to one of the best channels for exploring the franchise and aren't afraid to call out bad writing or conflicts in the narrative!
Filoni started out great and then slowly deteriorated into early onset dementia. We're in the late stage now.
That . . . is a bold accusation to make. Hope you have some proof to back it up.
@@nicholasfarrell5981 I don't mean literally suffering from dementia.
Jango was lucky to die in Attack of the clones, if he didnt they would have ruined him as well in filoni's TCW. They even wanted to bring Durge into the show but to make him a human character, thankfully we did not see that happen.
I do find a lot of the retcons interesting, but I found the way Quinlan Vos was treated strange
This always felt so intentionally disrespectful to me. Like, I do love the content and appreciate your calm, nonskewed discussion, but it also feels at times like there's a blatant disrespect. Why did it have to be Kanan with the Bad Batch? Why did they even have to change minute little details like Gray's armor color? Why change Ahsoka's story so much when it could've been done just as well as was portrayed in the book. Little changes like her lightsaber colors are just so upsetting. It feels like it's just an intentional little thing sometimes.
Sure George had the legal power to make changes, although I don't agree with it. But it's his company. But Filoni doesn't have that sort of power. I honestly don't why he continues to change canon just for the sake of not being able to write stories while respecting other writers.
I will say, while the EU may not all have been accepted by George Lucas as far as storybeats go, there's a reason why laege chunks of it are preferred over current Canon
The show certainly took liberties when taking bits and pieces of the EU, but I will say it wasn't always the best. Filoni did rather well, but left a lot to still be desired.
The Clone Wars is the very hard line in the sand separating Canon and Legends. The Retcons in the storyline beforehand could be made to work and mesh with one another, but as soon as the Clone Wars begins, everything is far too divergent. Especially the case for the Mandalorians, Twi'Leks, etc... poor Traviss, all her work for Mandalore just tossed for something far less interesting.
(The biggest tragedy for me is the history of Dathomir, and the lack of any ties to the Celestial/Mortis Gods)
I never liked his choices with Ventress and Offee. They reslly were bad decisions.
Considering he married a literal witch who inspired the Acolyte, I am glad Star Wars is not in his control.
“he married a literal witch who inspired the Acolyte” what’s wrong with that?
@byronritchie5449 Everything, obviously.
@@slicerneons3300 why? Do you think witchcraft is an actual thing?
He married WHAT?
I much prefer canon ventress over legends ventress
Legends fans were promised a consistent story when Disney decanonized the old EU.
The old EU would've still be scrapped even if Disney never bought star wars.
legends would have been burned to a crisp if lucas had made his own sequels
@@rvds2040still doesn’t justify Disney destroying it
@@RedHairedWarlord oh so if george lucas does it its fine, but if disney does it its bad ?
@@rvds2040, I don't see them mentioning Lucas, could you help me find it? After all, you're surely not the kind of idiot to disengenuously strawman who you argue against, right?
General Grievous was destroyed by Filoni 🤬
True but it was George's idea to do so
@alfieingrouille1528 I know George didn't wanted Grievous to be op to avoid someone to be more powerful than Vader however Filoni humiliated Grievous in many ways.
The changes to General Grievous in Star Wars the Clone Wars was made by George himself
And this is why I rely on fanfiction authors for a neuanced take on Barriss
I knew eeth koth had died but i didn't realize it was originally at geonosis.
Tartakovsky Clone wars >> Filoni's clone wars.
It's surprising how this argument has erupted among fans today when this first began 16 years ago. The result of that argument, and Lucasfilm's and Disney's decision to wipe the Expanded Universe away, was the total disregard of Star Wars by the old EU segment of the fanbase. And now with recent projects among the Filoniverse doing the same thing among the Disney Canon, and fans getting upset and divided once again, I can't help but wonder if we're going to see another segment of the fanbase leave Star Wars behind? Or if we're going to see another reset of the universe because of Filoni and the lack of attention and care in keeping their stories straight?
Its so sad cuz having maul in the eu tcw timeline would have been cool but having everything else overwrite in (including the 2003 grevious GOAT) isn't worth it
I'm glad to see someone not blindly meat riding the clone wars
There’s nothing wrong with retcons
star wars short series did a amazing job showing the danger of some of the big bads. Grevous was a true monster in his first aperance in the show like a horror movie villan, Durge realy showed he was NOT to be messed with and ventress was defenitly more scary than in the later show if you ask me. also the troop of clone comandos that infiltrated the city on munelinsk destroying that massive cannon!
This is how I feel about the Ashoka show when it comes to Thrawn. Granted, they had to play the hand they were dealt by Rebels, but it still bothers me. The fact that they didn't once reference his unique skill of discerning tactics and psychology from art was very discouraging to watch. I'm somewhat optimistic for the next season making it a part of his character, but they might just find it too jarring, given that it's not a part of his existing character in that show. To give credit where it's due, at least Rebels incorporated that aspect, even if only rarely.
I like both CWMMP and TCW. Like to me you can mix continuities up to a certain point. But certain things are incompatible. But it’s okay.