Wata Games SUED For Market Manipulation!
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- Опубліковано 21 лип 2024
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Wata Games, a video game grading company, came under heavy fire last year from myself and others over attempts to create an artificial speculative bubble in the collectibles market. Recently, a lawsuit was filed over these allegations. Let's take a look!
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Do you think this lawsuit has any chance of being successful?
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FINNALY, im first!!
Also click da link people, give karl some money
Big w
So i have a sealed copy of JAWS from 1975 is it worth more then 75K USD since it is older? lol
The fact that a single cartridge of SMB1, the 6th most sold video game of all time, was in auction for roughly 10 times the price than the only known existing prototype of the Nintendo Playstation console is pure non-sense and completely outrageous.
Nobody gives a shit about the Nintendo Playstation console. It was never out. There exists no nostalgia to it.
@@O.M.E.G.A But that's exactly why people would want it. It never came out, so it's rare. It has history behind it, a failed deal between Nintendo and Sony. That's something people might be willing to pay ridiculous sums for. A dirt common NES game you can get in so, so, so many ways nowadays? Ehhhhh, don't think it's worth a fortune, but you do you.
@@O.M.E.G.A dude...do you know why stuff is valuable?
Cause it is rare.
Why superman issue one was sold for so much money?
Cause at the time nobody collected comics, they were quick fun read for kids, nobody thought "Hey I should keep it in prime condition to sell it in 50 years", so we have very few copies left. But after everyone started collecting comics value plumeted, cause there is a lot of them.
Most expensive cars?
Test models which were produced in like...dozens so they are unique.
The same with games, how can you claim that SMB is expensive and unique collectors item if it is so common?
@@O.M.E.G.A nice bait
@@pyromanic8 You answered it yourself. People decide the value.
Gonna be honest, was extremely worried about how your initial video would be received. I'm excited to hear not only does it sound like you've experienced no negative consequences, but perhaps your research could be used to make a difference in this community. Thanks for the update!
Jrose watches karl :o
After the Billy Mitchell incident I was a little concerned too. While I love and appreciate the work Karl is doing, independent journalism seems like a legal minefield wrought with potential dangers. I hope he keeps striving for an impartial view of the facts, for our sake and his own. (P.s. I love your videos as well.)
@@emmahansen4858 guy who plays retro video games watches a guy who talks about retro video games? 😂
sup jrose i watched u and cheese do a mario rando match it was cool thanks
Man your videos really got me through last year, Tysm.
The ‘financialization’ of everything has such a high cost on all these hobbies we have loved for so long. I hate it.
It's impossible to get into this hobby now. No longer can you get N64 games for under $30. Now they're all in the hundreds making it impossible to collect games. I saw sooooo many games I used to have as a kid selling for $100 - $300
Just stock up on stuff now. It'll be 10x in 10 years lol
I bought a ton of the first run of PS3's. Very limited edition. Going to worth a crap ton!
It's a good thing music isn't like this *knock on wood*.
Yep. I've been priced out of my entire childhood. The objects of my nostalgia are now luxury items.
Karl, as a longtime VHS collector, I'm definitely seeing market activity I've never seen before Heritage got involved in the scene. The big grails used to be things like extremely obscure horror films (Tales from the QuadeaD Zone!) or rare/early releases of certain popular films, like the first MEDA release of Halloween or Wizard release of Texas Chainsaw Massacre.
Generally speaking, the VHS collector scene has been really tied in with horror fandom for a long time, and cult movies are where the value has been. Like you said, VHS tapes are pretty terrible; the joy is in recapturing the feeling you got in the video store as a kid, finding weird stuff your parents disapprove of. This insanity with sealed copies of well-known, widely-distributed movies, copies released from major studios' distribution arms at that, is absolutely manipulation. It used to be that an original 1982 VHS of Star Wars might net you $100, which seems an appropriately nostalgia-driven price, one not shared by later releases of the film or its sequels.
People trying to pump VHS tapes isn't totally new - there's a longtime joke on the scene about parents thinking their Disney Black Diamond VHS tapes in the attic are valuable. But everything about this situation is reminiscent of the enforced bubble on the game market: the articles, the focus on graded copies of well-known mainstream titles rather than the grail titles that old collectors really want, the complete disconnect from the grassroots collecting scene.
I'm convinced that the grading companies are selling these tapes to themselves for high dollar amounts to try to show that they have that real value, which is incredibly unethical. if someone wants to pay $15,000 for a sealed copy of the tmnt movie then whatever, but why would anyone pay that for a graded copy when you can just buy a sealed copy for $30 and send it off to get graded for like $100? it just doesn't add up.
That's very interesting and I believe you that the value in VHS was actually in rare titles. Particularly "B grade" horror etc.
@@ThriftTheater 100%.
This hidden buyback scam is pretty common in modern art too. Prices are incredibly inflated.
Especially _The Factory_ mass produced type of art a la Warhol made by minions.
I collect vintage Hot Wheels (for about 15 yrs now) and even I can tell this recent VHS craze is entirely manufactured. By using popular titles like BTTF they're playing off the public's misconceptions about how vintage collectibles appreciate value. The vintage collectibles that appreciate the most- in my experience- aren't the things *everyone* had back then; they're the fringe things collectors didn't buy at the time (for one reason or another) and 30 years later collectors with money in their pockets are finally realizing that *those things* are what's worth the most now, because no one has it and no one can find it. (In the diecast toy car world the things that fall into this category are cars that were only marketed for children to play with and not for collectors to collect. For example, exclusive cars that were only sold with track sets and nowhere else.) The the markets for these items develop slowly over decades, as more and more people reach the age where they have money in their pocket and want to own something they couldn't afford when they were kids/teens. 30 yr old collectibles don't explode in value overnight lol. What a joke.
I have a mint, sealed copy of the 1st release of Ghost Busters on VHS. I’d love to sell it but I would want it to go to a super fan/collector who appreciated it for what it was. It would be awesome if that collector valued it highly & wanted to compensate me accordingly but that’s not likely. The only people who make money on this stuff are the people who have money already. It’s always designed to benefit the people who manipulate it.
Wata turn of events.
yes
You will see yourself out, yes?
>:(
Highly underrated comment
Shame on you.
Take this thumb.
This was a long time coming for people who’ve been following this channel, and I’m happy to finally see it happen.
Me 2
+1
I hope they finally get what's coming to them for the amount of money they're stealing in the name of collectors/collections.
@@DarksteelHeart Don't we all.
I am also happy to see thousands of innocent people have their recent purchases be turned to dirt so that this brit guy can feel important on the internet.
VHS seems like an extremely bizarre medium to collect, since the tapes degrade over time, even if they are still sealed in a box and never used. I suppose you could collect VHS boxes for the art, but at that point you're better off collecting movie posters.
You're not buying sealed games to play them. I'm a horror fan and the VHS box art is just so much better than the later formats. It gives you the memories of the video shop days which you don't really get with video games as the rental market for those came later.
I mean, disc rot hits old PS1-era games n stuff. nothing's really permanent.
I don't think anyone plans on ever actually watching them lol
Yup. Any magnetic tape based medium has a pretty short inherent shelf life, even if totally unused. This is the EXACT same reason that so many new-old stock 3.5" floppies come completely dead these days.
@@strawberrycrisis5592 Funnily enough digital files are much more permanent than any physical medium, since you can transfer and copy them anywhere.
Honestly I feel like everything is "collectible" now. It really sucks when all I want to do is collect the few things in my childhood that made me feel happy and grateful my parents were able to buy me the few things I enjoyed.
If only there was a word for something you can collect...
The only way to play games that are semi-rare these days is piracy, since opportunists see a game as a pending check, not a game.
Pokemon Box costs upwards of thousands on eBay.
@@mrcombustiblelemon2902 yeah oc doesnt make sense
Well soon the retro game market bubble will pop prices are going down soon you could probably buy these old games for about 10 bucks what I'd say the more common games are worth
/me _Starts collecting old train tickets and supermarket receipts. Surely these will be „Valuable“ someday?..._ 🙃
Anybody fancy pumping airbeds? Mine's looking a little flat... 😇
I started collecting VHS when the retro game market got priced way over what the games are actually worth. And the only reason I started collecting select VHS was to make a display wall for a room with horror memorabilia. I hope it doesn’t inflate because it’s nice to selectively collect your favorite films. For anyone starting to collect vhs be careful, look for mold and look at what things have sold for not for the asking. When we start over paying for vhs it drives the prices up. And look up different editions of the VHS you want so you can see the differences in prices and art. Have fun as always. Thanks Karl you rock brother!!
My friend had a massive wall of VHS. So many of them. Some rare ones obviously. He gave them all away to this other guy to make more room. That was a stupid thing to have done..
@@PEGGLORE I’ve had this convo with other people before and honestly it’s a very humble thing to do, if your financially ok. I have a huge video game collection we’ll over 5 figures in price. I would rather give my games/consoles away to someone who appreciates and covets them as much as I do, then sell them. I try not to place monetary value on my childhood nostalgia, though collecting games/vhs etc can be an expensive hobby.
@Balakeh I’m telling ya! Giving something away that you know that person is going to love as much as you is worth way more to me as a collector. I make a point to tell sellers who give me a good deal on something that it’s going to a good home and will be well taking care of. I got nothing against reselling, I just don’t do it, I like to keep things in the collector community.
VHS is a factor of UA-cam channels like RedLetterMedia. Anything they review, that is cult instantly gets expensive.
Nice to build up that wall got a small collection myself. I only go thrift searching, so its a very slow process but if you persist you can find gems. Online prices are too crazy nowadays. The mold is a real problem, there are people on youtube showing methods to remove it, never tried.
@@varsityathlete9927 removing mold is not hard you just need a second vcr that you only use for that process. But it’s a process I’d rather avoid if possible. Yeah slow going I’m in no hurry I take my time too.
Finally. Thanks for your hard documentary work, Karl! Maybe we can now see reasonably priced classic games in the future, though I don't think it'll happen immediately.
You have not seen the video at all so do i
@@Arvl. now I did. Comment remained the same.
Don't have your mind in the gutter, this isn't about being first. This is about appreciation.
@Balakeh yeah, I've followed Karl for years now & have seen the previous documentary on Wata-Heritage by Karl when it was first uploaded. Also heard the lawsuit on Wata, so I figured this video will further cement its legitimacy in the public sphere.
Thanks for the bump, fellow Karl enjoyer. 😎👍
It's incredibly naive and short sighted if you think that the WATA drama is the sole reason for the increased demand and value of "classic" games. There are more tangible, legit. factors that have had an impact over many years, before WATA was on the scene.
Damn, your video got full on credited on the revelations of a lawsuit. I doubt many other UA-camrs can say to have achieved that. Now let's see how the lawsuit turns out
UA-cam is and is still growing to be one of the largest sources for media consumption including journalism. You'd be surprised how impactful popular videos are. They are literally changing the world.
coffeezilla is the only other option to come to mind
the same thing is happening within the TCG market (pokemon, MTG, yu-gi-oh), with Heritage Auctions being the one that Buzzfeed contacted to get pokemon cards valued
In the case of the UK Video Nasties, sometimes VHS was the only way to watch certain banned horror movies in the 80s. Unlike films, VHS did not have to be classified by the BBFC so important films like Night of the Living Dead, The Beyond, Dawn of the Dead and Suspiria could only be seen uncut on VHS.
While DVD is clearly superior in terms of quality, VHS is obviously a nostalgic format for many people. The static, scan lines and low quality have a particular effect on horror movies as they trick your eyes into seeing things that are not there. Something that Konami also played with Silent Hill with the "static effect". Many people attest to finding the VHS version of Alien scarier than the DVD, simply because it is harder to clearly see where the alien is.
Laserdisc was a great format but far out of the price range of most people. Probably due to the amount of pornography that was released on VHS making it a more popular format.
I agree that collecting VHS as a invest opportunity is bs though.
Agreed, I collect horror VHS for nostalgia and watching the same movie on Blue-ray with a 4K TV takes the real scare out than watching on a CRT. I went as far as watching horror VHS RF on a 1985 GE 19" for the true effect we had back then. 1 buck limit on VHS, not investing and will download an AVI or MPEG 4 before buying a DVD and probably watch it thru the CRT from my computer if horror. I think a lot of people now are collecting horror VHS these days, hard to find at thrift stores especially pre 1990's horror and if in clamshell forget it. Get hit by lighting would be a better chance!
I remember being like 13 or 14 at the time when I watched Peter Jacksons Braindead/Dead Alive from VHS of course.
There was something, lets say more disturbing and ominous about the infamous lawnmower scene in the end when you are watching it in pitch black darkness from a Sony Trinitron CTR TV. Something about the combination of haziness/blurriness but also a lot of happening at the same time making it so chaotic when your mind tries to fill the gaps.
I'm not particularly good at explaining it but I think it is akin to Quentins Tarantinos films where stubbornly uses film cameras giving them that distinct look compared to contemporary films
Might be misremembering but didn't you have to turn a laserdisc over halfway through like an LP? Or was that another format? It was annoying anyway.
The thing that REALLY grinds my gears is that true collectors (not investor trash) use WATA despite all this crap.
WATA grades should be deemed worthless in the community
I found a bunch of my old games woth boxes and manuals included and opted not tp get them graded because it honestly felt disgusting to pay them money to rate my games and give them a grade
I only use VGA when grading games, always has, always will. CGA Is a really good company and been in the game a long time.
@@Rohndogg1 You're paying for the plastic box to seal it all in for preservation and display (the professional version of the Stupid Paul Bros.' Game Boy coffee table); if you want them to ever actually get played with again, just hold onto them or sell them CIB without going through the grading process.
@@autobotstarscream765 you can get plastic boxes in poundland too.
@@RAFMnBgaming Exactly.
I'm skeptical of anything sealed. It's just too damn easy to reseal things these days with the average person having no clue. Furthermore, unless you're willing to open it up and actually enjoy the sealed thing (most collectors aren't), you have no idea what you've actually paid for. And if you do, then you take the financial hit of having paid more specifically because it was sealed only to then open it up and play it. The only thing that makes LESS sense to me is to buy the sealed thing, sit it on the shelf, and never open it and play it.
Personally, if I wanted a good collection of any kind of media, I'd want "complete in box" whether it's a repro or original, as long as the repro is similar to original quality. Who cares if it's been reproduced, especially if the repro is in better condition than an original? As long as it functions exactly the same way, I wouldn't care. Nor would I have to worry about taking the financial hit of opening it up.
Collecting these things for monetary value is utterly stupid. Keeping a game sealed in its original packaging and sitting on a shelf is utterly stupid.
Back in 2000, I went to Best Buy and bought a brand new copy of Daytona USA for Dreamcast. When I got home, I opened up the game (which seemed to have slightly different shrink wrapping than other disc games I had bought back then) only to find a blank CD-R inside. Someone had swapped it out and replaced the shrink wrap. That was all the way back in 2000. I don't even want to know how many "sealed" games out there are fakes. People are already doing it with 3DO games! This problem will only get worse if the collector trends continue.
Indeed, I just buy physical games to play them, and this speculative bubble has been making that impossible for me, in Japan, the collectors market considers old and outdated stuff as "stuff that can't be worth more than 1 dollar" thats why retro game collections in Japan are accesible for everyone, they have strict community laws against doing shit like this, unless its for the rare elusive Gold Plated Megaman copy cause thats a "1 in the world" kind of thing.
I always think of the wine market. All those really old, rare bottles most likely contain sub-par vinegar by now, but who's going to open them to find out?
exactly, I heard Gamestop used to do that as they had a machine in the back that would be used to shrink wrap used games to sell them as new.
Take what you just said and apply it to literally any useful item that is collected... Yeah, you're arguing against collecting in general. You aren't arguing against collecting video games.
@@BruceNJeffAreMyFlies The concept of collecting should be accesible, as in Japan. If Japan does it that way, the rest of the world should do so too. We argue against Speculators, those aren't collectors, those are just parasites.
Today, Karl is the absolute legend. got the ball rolling on taking down corrupt business(es). Glad the attorneys gave you the recognition you deserve for that video.
As someone who’s collected VHS for years I’ve seen such a rise in cost and people trying to scam others, don’t fall for sell thru’s, do your research, no one needs to be or should be paying $75,000 for a tape specially not a sell thru!
You're sitting on a gold mine, aye?
Are you a fan of movies? Repeat viewings perhaps?
Well, there are thousands of movies that have never been officially released on dvd.
Those are the VHS tapes I look for. If you are a fan of rare movies, sometimes your only option is VHS.
Cheers.
@@dredwick like with many medians, stuff never gets reissued and the rare stuff is stuck to being on those outdated medians.
@@dupisdisasterpiece1058 guys just angry for no reason
@@dredwick I wouldn't call VHS "worthless" as there are some movies that were only ever released on that format and no place else, and sometimes the version of a film on VHS gets changed later on, like Bad Lieutenant for example, Jimmy Page filed a frankly bogus lawsuit against Schooly D because the guitar riff in his song "Signifying Rapper"(which was used several times throughout the film as it's leitmotif) sounded kinda similar to Kashmir Abel Ferrera was pissed off to say the least and after the court ruled in favor of Page all future home releases had to have the music changed, so all the DVD and Blu-Ray and streaming releases used shitty replacement music. That also happened with Return of the Living Dead as every release after the original HBO VHS replaced at least some of the licensed songs with generic replacements(though weirdly enough the UK DVD release has all the original music for some reason)
wata games has truly ruined the retro gaming market and their impact will last a really long time, i really hope they lose this, even if the gaming market never recovers for what theyve done
In all honesty, flashcarts are definitely more portable and a superior way to preserve.
The problem with most of 'em are just the games with special processors...
i pirate everything and play on emulator with a good enough pc to emulate anything
@@Code7Unltd tbh for the sake of preservation the best thing to do is to rip the game file online and scan in everything else (box, manual, disc art, etc). that way it never gets lost since someone out there most likely downloaded it
they just did what VGA has done over the last 15 years in 1 or 2 years
retro gaming should be cheap, it's all outdated technology, granted if something's 30 years old and is in brand new condition, it could be valuable, but that's not 80% of the price raped junk on ebay
retro youtubers ruined the market. they make a video on a game and prices skyrocket.
Just so you know, the FTC generally watches suits like this one and then intervenes if the plaintiffs seem to have a case that would get over the procedural hurdles between initial filing and the courtroom.
This video reminds me why I am so adamant about people speaking out on things like this, even if you are 99% sure nothing will come of it, because that 1% is still worth the effort.
you’re officially an investigative journalist now, karl
What’s great is that Karl’s Wikipedia page calls him an investigative journalist
He has been for a while, to be honest.
He really is one of the few real journalists left in the world.
Speedrunning company lawsuits.
And thus the argument can be made against Billy Mitchell that an investigative journalist isn't likely trying to slander or defame, merely report on facts.
I would much rather something like the FTC doing something about this. A class action lawsuit is just a lawyer taking a slice of the pie, and giving a large group of people their respective crumbs.
While that is true, there being a successful class action case would be a solid foundation to get that ball rolling in teh future.
More importantly:
If you get charged by the FTC, they can really hit you where it hurts. And win or lose, other business become skittish about associating with you for a while.
I went to a retro con a few weeks ago and saw a table full of WATA graded stuff for sale for ridiculous prices.....they didnt sell one thing from their table and I just laughed
I point out that WATA is a fraud company in lawsuits every time I see them.
I can't remember if you said it in your original video on the matter, but the pandemic is the biggest factor in the retro game market pricing skyrocketing the way it did, plenty of nostalgic people who were bored out of their minds went on eBay or wherever to get a hit of nostalgia, same thing with Pokemon cards. I think that's the biggest factor for things normalizing, things are opening back up, and the people who aren't as savvy to the alternative methods of playing classic games like that are moving on to something else.
Not to mention a lot of those bored quarantined people ended up spending their time cooped up _learning_ those alternative methods.
Sadly things didn't return to the way they used to be. Collecting old games is impossible now.
I honestly don't think that this theory is enough to justify the amount of boost, imho because where are all these new "passionate collectors" who are in it for nostalgia and don't care about the prices. Most of these "new collectors" are obviously in it for the money first.
It's about time. I love how they introduced you as Independent Journalist, instead of youtuber. I love it!
'UA-camr' has always been a dismissive insult by those in the mainstream/legacy media to protect their prestige as cultural gatekeepers.
It's about time we recognised that uploading something onto UA-cam doesn't mean it isn't journalism, or film-making, or professional reviewing, or educational, etc.
I believe Jobst is a traditionally published journalist having written articles for print magazines. I wish i could recall more details for you. But he is more qualified than most claiming the epithet.
The big problem now is all the other "grading companies" that come up. I was at a comic con recently in North Carolina and there was a company selling "Graded Collectibles" such as comics and books but noticably they also had games. One of which was a $500 copy of Grand Theft Auto V in the shrink wrap for Xbox 360 and a $1800 copy of a Spiderman game for Xbox 360
4:47 "On the tenth of May, a class action was filed in the United States District Court."
Small clarification: there are 94 federal district courts in the United States. As Wikipedia correctly states, "Each of the 50 states has between one and four district courts, and the District of Columbia and Puerto Rico each have a district court." The case of Jacob Knight et al v. Wata, Inc. et al was filed in the U.S. District Court in the Central District of California.
A greedy corporation finally getting what they deserve? A surprise to be sure, but a welcome one.
We have to see the outcome of it first. But this is a good start for sure.
It isn't even a legit corporation, in the sense that they don't offer a genuine service. This is just textbook fraud.
We will watch this lawsuit with great interest
With every cell of my body
Don’t hold your breath you’re still under capitalism
To sum up:
Manipulation isn’t illegal.
But lying to sell is.
And they crossed that line.
Wash trading
Market manipulation is
Manipulation is illegal. Advertising and convincing people is what's fine, until it involves either lying or hiding conflicts of interest.
@@AndrewBakke everything manipulates. An advert manipulates it’s audience.
Simply by selling, anything, you are affecting a market. You manipulate as soon as you speculate.
You cross the line legally when you demonstrably lie, in order to profit.
Market manipulation is crime. Look for Enron case, probably the most famous example of manipulation ever.
Here's a thought. Anyone grading and pricing any collectables legally requires themselves to immediately buy the item on the spot if asked to. If a company tells you your copy of Ice Climbers is worth 10k, you can say "okay give me 10k" and they are legally obligated to do so in exchange for the game. If they believe it to be worth 12k and lowball it, they still win 2k out of it when they sell it. If they give you a ridiculous number to inflate the price, they lose a lot.
I am an auctioneer by trade, and often tell people what their paintings, porcelain, figurines, or other antique stuff is worth. I always aim for high prices but I also aim for selling the thing to begin with. If I see similar auction results for 1000 bucks, I might tell them I'd be willing to put it up for auction for 800, and see how high it gets. I do get my 20% cut from them, so I benefit from it selling at all, so my goal is to sell it somewhere between market value and customer satisfaction.
There have been times where I rated a painting at 800 bucks and it sold for 3k, and I happily took my 20% cut and even hand delivered that myself, helping the customer put it up above his couch in a town three hours east. There have been times where I sold a whole set of cheap porcelain for 12 people for 50 bucks and I honestly spent more time packaging it for shipping than I ever made selling it. You win some, you lose some. You send customers away if their things are worthless, and you give them a reasonable expectation if you think it might do well. Prices can always go up if more people bid on it. But you have to pick a nice minimum to determine a value. And I have at times told people I'd outright buy their item because I expect it to sit in my auction house for three years until someone is interested, and they would not want to wait those three years. And sometimes three years turn into seven, and sometimes 200 bucks turn into 70. At some point you just want to be rid of old stock for any price even at a loss.
People just going out and telling people some ridiculous price without any strings attached are ridiculous and they need to be held accountable. Buy the thing if you think it's worth so much. Give it a two tiered approach if you must, tell them "I think it's worth 70k, but I'd buy it for 30k" and that's still an enormous price. People are free to call the grader on their bullshit if the buy price and the worth price are wildly different. This would be a simple and effective way to do business. I already do it. If I think your stuff's worth it, I will gladly sell it for you. And if I don't, I either turn you away, or I offer you a lowball price because the sellability is low but the value is there, and I might make my money eventually. And you can pick from that. I don't just say "hey this is worth a million bucks, enjoy" and go away. And I definitely don't charge for grading. I give a price range based on historic data and my personal expectations, and I am open about that. And maybe your item will be that unicorn three rich people fight over and it'll triple in value. Or maybe it'll go unsold for two years and you'll get it back. Both happen. One more than the other. Both are more or less outliers.
Something needed to be put on the books about this. Ruining a hobby and trying to scam people at the same time. Thanks for keeping us updated Karl
Wata and heritage deserve to be dragged through the courts. They ruined the collector market for video games. Being a buyer and trader I can tell you that a lot of retro games have seen a 50% to 100% price bump in the last few years, pricing a lot of people out of this once affordable niche hobby. I know the price hike is partly because of the covid too (more people at home, etc) but overall I think the hype around sealed games bled into the general unsealed market.
Yeah, well. Sealing isn't hard. Only natural.
Can’t believe it’s been almost a year since that first video. It feels like no time’s past. Thanks for another banger Karl
Excellent report Karl. I’ve been in antique market for five decades now. I’ve seen this before. Just happens a little faster with internet today. VHS appears to be the same field as the graded video games. Now there has been a market for big box/ scarce horror titles. But there was a reason as they where rare and obscure. Many with companies long gone. Some that the original film stock was lost etc etc. but who would need a graded copy of a block Buster movie that really never went out of print? That sold 100’s of millions of copies for vhs, laser disc, dvds, etc. doesn’t work that way. If you can walk into a goodwill and find copies all week long. Then it’s not rare.
I started following this case and purchased Wata Games' Motion for Summary Judgement that they filed on December 22nd so I could read it and Jesus Christ, I didn't expect it to be 678 pages lol.
Holy crap, seriosuly?
Worried this will go nowhere, but at least SOMETHING is happening to these frauds.
A friend of mine messaged me last night about how he got his copy of Ocarina of Time graded as an 8.5 from WATA. People say I can be kind of a dick, so I didn't want to be the one to tell him it's probably a scam and a waste of money. But he's just happy to have it in the plastic casing with the grading like old baseball cards, so to each their own.
Wouldn't the dick move here be to NOT tell him?
You can see it that way, or see the nicer option as sending him this stuff so he can chose to sell high.
"The market dies because of Karl Jobst's video!!"
What they mean to say is, the bubble popped before they could liquidize all that investment.
GOOD!
The market is completely screwed still from all the artificial grading hypes these companies published over the years!
It has heavily influenced not just the sealed games market, but also the used games market one, ruining a hobby for many of us!
Sue em, ruin em, i dont feel sorry about it at all!
You're a force for good on the internet.
Sometimes doing good seems pointless, given the insurmountable amount of evil in the world. But we cannot let evil run over everyone without trying to fight back.
Last time I was this early Billy Mitchell’s scores were still verified
Respect for inspiring this lawsuit! Has been a long time coming. I hope it will end with a bang.
You absolutely deserve a lot of praise for this! I hope you keep doing more and more investigative work like this one.
Not sure about VHS, but the VHS grading says "Tom Wilson Collection", LOL indeed the same tactic to artificially inflate the price by making the item more "special".
I think Karl dropped the ball on the BTTF tape. It's special because it was indeed the copy Tom Wilson (who played Biff) got directly from the studio, it included a handwritten note by him and was auctioned off for charity where inflated prices are the norm, especially for celebrity items. This is not an item indicative of the state of VHS collecting. Nobody buys this because it's a sealed VHS tape. They bought it because it was owned by an actor of the movie. It's like buying a lipstick that Marilyn Monroe used or an original Star Trek script previously owned by William Shatner.
Good. They destroyed the retro collecting hobby through manipulation. They need to lose everything they made.
As a kid I'd go to the weekend market and pick up like 5 N64 games for $25 or $30 now I go to the same market today and see the games I used to have as a kid sell for $100 - $300 each.
10:48 .... spells it out clearly in a few short seconds.
There's a tiny hole-in-the-wall 'geek culture' collectibles shop in my hometown. When the local Gamestop doesn't stock something and can't expect to get ahold of it for me, they send me around the corner to inquire there.
There amidst the more modern stuff like exclusive Funkos, Wii console components and Disney Infinity figures I see controllers for old-school consoles and a small stock of cartridge games dating as far back to the Atari days. And everything is priced to move.
A cluttered pawn shop half an hour away uses one or two meter-long bays of shelf space for the Sega, Game Boy, NES and SNES cartridges they'll still give money for.
And I live in New Hampshire, where the population level doesn't exactly make these the safest business models.
Those stores' owners and folks like them... now, THEY deserve to prosper.
Wata the chances they lose? 😏
I see what you did there.
😏
They’ll settle. Never going to trial.
@@shootermcgavin1208 how do you know
It must've felt good to have yourself referred to as a journalist instead of "Speedrunner UA-camr." Nice job on this stuff.
They got exposed, they got salty and now they are getting sued. They shouldn't be blaming you though, you are not the one that forced them to lie to the public.
This is what happens when you lie.
Really eager to see what can come out of this. This type of practice really makes a joke out of actual collectors...
At this point I'm just glad to see any scammers getting dragged to court for any reason at all about anything whatsoever. I don't expect the scammers to be found guilty, to be punished, or even to lose business when the case unavoidably falls apart on some slight technicality; on the contrary I expect them to come out of it swinging for the bleachers and profit off of this, probably with some crowdfunding scam, but, well, fuck this species.
This. Sooo this
Roses are red
Violets are blue
Give me a gun, I'm ending it.
yeah hopefully those weirdos selling Disney tapes for thousands of dollars will finally be kicked off Ebay.
It makes their life harder and gives a reputation at least.
This is a civil lawsuit. There is no presumption of innocence, nor verdict. What these lawsuits use is called "preponderance of the evidence", which as a lawyer told me while doing jury duty, the bar for winning such a suit is about 50% rather than 90% in criminal cases. The jury also simply finds awards for either or both sides, rather than declaring the defendant guilty or not guilty. Look at the Depp vs Heard case, where Depp won the main lawsuit, but Heard also won on some defamatory statements attorneys made during the trial.
What strikes me is that by the time someone is paying millions for sealed games, there's literally no chance it will ever be opened. When you're talking this kind of money it would be way too easy to fake.
That could easily be a repro box with a block of wood inside and the buyers would never know or be able to verify it.
This sort of thing started with old art work I am pretty sure. And actually, that is still probably where the real professionals do their business. One thing that can be done is tax avaoidance. I understand at some airports they have tax free zones and if the art sits in a warehouse there and gets sold off at that location, there are no taxes owed. Another thing that can be done is a piece of art from an artist can be sold at a very high amount, probably the best piece, then the rest of the collection can be donated to a museum with an inflated evaluation for an especially large chartable giving tax deduction (this is an American thing, not sure if any other country has that). Thus, overall the person who bought the art should make it out ahead by paying overall less taxes. Or at minimum the artist could do so, and easy enough for people to go into cahoots with this sort of thing and both come out ahead on it. However,, my suspicion is that collectables primary use is money laundering. Or payment for services other than what is on the surface. Say you need to hire a hitman, and have to pay a lot for the service. Or maybe you need to buy a whole lot of drugs. Or something else highly illegal. Well, you can't just pay the guy and write "hitman expense" on your taxes, nor can the guy accepting payment write "assassins' income". So instead, you have your buddy evaluate some collectable, especially art, as particularly valuable and the payment is made ostensibly for that item so everything as far as money movement is above board, when in reality the art or whatever is just something easy to move around and claim has lots of value so payment can be made legally an relatively non-suspiciously. Or even more mundanely, it could be used to pay for legal services, but if done at one of those freeports for the item rather than the actual desired service taxes could be avoided.
I am not saying all collectables are like this, I am just saying this is definitely something this market and similar ones could be used for for people needing to move large amounts of money around but can't actually say the real reason why. A single, lightweight, small item falsely claimed to be worth a whole lot is perfect for this sort of thing.
VHS had a mini boom in the UK years ago , with pre-VRA (Video Recordings Act) tapes of famous and infamous horror films going for what I thought was outrageous sums. DVD and the Internet put paid to all but the most dedicated collectors, but I made some money buying cheap and auctioning on ebay for whatever they wanted to pay
Years ago, there was a viral article about a vhs of beauty and the beast that was sold for 10k. A lot of people i know started looking for their vhs and looking into that and i did not understand it for the same reason, VHS are crappy and they decay, also, it was not rare at all. But still, the article made waves.
Imagine spending thousands of dollars for a depreciating asset.
@@CollectedG Basically, PS1 games, every CD based game eventually rots away and at a quite fast rate. Just like VHS.
@@jironamos7650 Yeah but retro games hold their value more than VHS tapes cause there are still old games that can't be played anywhere else.
While on the other hand, VHS tapes are easy to make back ups of, played on only one type of hardware, and have been made worthless since Blu-rays became a thing. Unless you enjoy watching movies in cataracts quality.
@@CollectedG Ehh, debatable, I can emulate without consequences. I can buy the rereleases on steam or nintendo, theres no use for the physical thing when the thing that matters is the file inside it.
I threw out hundreds of VHS tapes my parents moved from my former room into their cellar, that then became covered with mold on the inside of the reels (literally on the tape). I was sad but eventually I replaced everything with digital copies, and I don't miss watching fuzzy, blurry movies with shit tracking at all. Or trying to keep old VCRs around and running when they're mechanically starting to fail. I don't really understand the sudden interest with VHS, people act like they have nostalgia for _the actual crappiness._ I can *kind of* understand it but not enough to make me want to collect them. I don't care at all for it, myself; people can waste their money on whatever they want. There just shouldn't be any deception involved about their worth, or the "grading system."
i can’t believe that 1st video was almost 1 year ago. crazy how time flies
the FTC seriously needs to get on them for price-fixing. big legal no-no in the US.
The fact that Karl undeniably got this case opened with his video is _awesome._ Great job reporting Karl!
Pretty sure the Back to the Future VHS sold for so much because it was owned by the actor who played Biff and he included a personal message with the tape. Don't see just any VHS tape, even sealed, going for that much unless there is something similar like that that makes it unique.
Its incredibly satisfying to see this lawsuit in play hopefully it acts as a flood gate for other higher level investigations. Great job Karl!!
Discovery will be great on this, just think of the emails. Hopefully this will bring sanity back to collecting. First issue copy of Mario Bros (NES) is always going to be a super collectible thing and reach good a good chunk of money esp if the condition is there. But lets cut out the BS fake values.
God, i hope this works. As a casual game collector, this bullshit has made this hobby SO much harder.
Thank you so much for the update, always exciting to see a new video release on this channel.
You Karl. You're the absolute legend.
I don't think this would have happened without you.
At 9:39, the headline above caught my eye.
"Florida pastor arrested for allegedly masturbating outside Starbucks"
EXCUSE ME?!
Florida man strikes again
Now THAT'S news to me
The news article, not the comment, for clarification
It's important to note too that the only reason that Back to the Future VHS sold for as much as it did is because it used to belong to an actor in the movie Thomas F. Wilson who played Biff Tannen.
Karl, I hope you know how many people appreciate your vigilance and integrity in the gaming and speedrunning space. Lots of love and all the best to you
Man having your UA-cam video be used in a lawsuit is a massive achievement. Good job man.
Regarding the VHS tapes sales, I've cleaned and digitized VHS tapes for various clients. While much of the world has since moved on from VHS, there are use case scenarios where things like DVDs or Blu-ray or digital streaming services are not an option. There are some TV shows that never got a DVD release, and thus people would pay money to have the VHS copies. Speaking from personal experience, in the late 90s and early 2000s, I used to wake up every morning to tape _Godzilla The Series._ At the time, only a handful of episodes got released on VHS. An acquaintance in the US was posting on an old forum thread asking if anybody had recordings of the show, and when I said that I recorded every episode off the TV, he paid me to cover the costs of sending VHS copies to his friend in the UK who made DVD backups of the episodes. I found out later one of them posted the episodes on Bit Torrant and my recordings went viral.
Of course, now you can officially buy the whole series on DVD. But there are still TV shows for which all we have are official VHS tapes or VHS recordings of television broadcasts. _Grim Tales_ with Rik Mayall and _James Bond Jr_ are my favourite examples of such. Most of the recordings I've seen on UA-cam are not the best quality, usually
As someone who works at a place where VHS tapes are routinely purchased and sold, I have a small window on the phenomenon of collectible VHS tapes. First, the market for VHS tapes is not exploding. Like, at all. Most sealed VHS tapes won't sell, to say nothing of ones that are already opened. It's no exaggeration to say that for every 100 VHS tapes that come through our doors, 95 of them will hit the dumpster. They're just not a valuable commodity.
There are two caveats to this statement though. The first concerns material for which there is no corresponding DVD/Blu-Ray release (or that newer release is itself expensive and/or hard to find). Michael Mann's "The Keep", for example, will always sell on VHS, because it's one of two ways to legally obtain a copy of the film, with the other being a laserdisc. If you see a Region 1 DVD for sale online, that's a bootleg, pure and simple. Likewise, we have no problem moving VHS tapes of the original Star Wars trilogy released prior to 1997, since they are an inexpensive way to get the versions people my age saw as children. Beyond that, Star Wars collectors often like to add the films to their collection in a variety of packaging and formats, so again, it's a pretty easy sell.
The other caveat is horror. Horror movies on VHS sell CONSTANTLY. There's a small-but-substantial number of people who enjoy horror on VHS specifically because of the quality and limitations of the medium: the nostalgia factor of going to the video rental place, the lower quality picture and sound, and even the imperfections which show up on tapes that have been viewed so much they've begun to degrade. But this is specific to the horror genre (with some very limited crossover into sci-fi). "Friday the 13th", "Nightmare on Elm Street", and virtually anything by John Carpenter released prior to "Ghosts of Mars" is a guaranteed sale. ESPECIALLY if its sealed.
But beyond that? Most VHS is simply worthless, with individual tapes worth cents at best. Your Disney "black diamond" releases are not worth hundreds of dollars apiece, regardless of what that internet article says. Not even your copy of "The Little Mermaid" with the phallic artwork. Sorry, love, it's on Disney+ now, and no one cares about even the DVDs or Blu-Rays. :)
I can't imagine seeing an inflated VHS market the way the retro game market bubbled in the last several years. Nowhere near enough interest. It's too niche. Tens of millions of people play and collect video games all over the world. That number is probably in the low thousands for VHS hobbyists. They exist, but not in numbers high enough to support a Wata-style pumping scheme. I'm happy to be corrected if someone has better evidence indicating the contrary, but I'm just not seeing it from where I'm at in the retail trenches. :)
This was really insightful, while I am not a lawyer myself I have worked as a paralegal myself. In a case of a class action lawsuit of this size it is most likely (in my unprofessional opinion) that this will be dragged on for a few months and then settled out of court for an undisclosed sum. While I highly doubt Heritage Auctions and Wata Games can win a case such as this, it seems rather unlikely this will affect them on the scale that most people would like. In the most probable scenario Wata And Heritage will make a behind closed doors payout, a few articles will be written about it and they will continue in the same fashion buying and selling until their inventory drys up and they will move onto the next pump and dump scheme.
This is unfortunately the truth. Class Action lawsuits are civil in nature so the only thing they can do is force a payout of money. The vast bulk either fail entirely or settle out of court. Its rare for one to force a payout so large that it actually bankrupts the defending party. Honestly the only one I can even think of is the lawsuit involving the Aryan Nation. Generally speaking unless the person suing is independently wealthy and is only suing for the principal of the matter than the lawyers will settle to get their pay day.
@@steverogers8163 Considering that the attorney from the Reddit post is a collector themselves, and the fact that the post was actual truth, there is some reason to doubt this will be something the attorneys will simply settle on. Maybe I'm a little optimistic, but I can only imagine that the lawyer's own personal interest in this lawsuit will stop it from simply being a lawsuit filed for the sake of taking money from a big corporation.
To me its like theyre doing this again to try and keep focus away from the class action lawsuit against them artificialy pumping up video game prices and its all just disgusting.
But then these days EVERYTHINGS a collectable so nothings feel rare amymore or at least to me it doesnt.
One thing that needs to be taken into account with a lawsuit like this, is that if someone outside the parties involved purchased a game at a massivly inflated price caused by insider trading, they can sue for damages if their valuable collectors item suddenly crashes in value in an instant...
So if you bought a game for 100,000 dollars, but a lawsuit suddenly crashes it's value to like 10,000 dollars instead, the buyer can now ALSO sue for damages, as they would basicly have a case for fraud. It would be like saying only 10 sealed copies remained of a game, but as soon as you paid the massive amount of money for an extremely rare item, 100 more magically appear out of nowhere, making your purchase next to worthless
I mean, not much will come of this:
1. It's a civil suit - so the penalties are financial only. You need a criminal case for actual prison time. If you were WATA and you saw a civil suit, you laugh, because you know at absolute worst - your company goes bankrupt. That's it. You file Chapter 11, you get out with your money and you laugh. There are some exceedingly rare opportunities for a civil case to have an enforcable jail time component, but that should generally occur only if they have guaranteed debt which they wouldn't do if this was all a scam etc etc etc. Also class actions suits are really ever seen as a proper benchmark for real liability. They are designed to get funds out of the entity that did wrong - they are not often used as proper criminal action lawsuits.
2. "False advertising?" Delays in providing services isn't false advertising. If you market "we'll grade your games in 3 months" and then take 6 months, but you tell people it's taking longer because of backlog, that's not false advertising. That's supply and demand. That specific charge won't go anywhere. False advertising to succeed there would require them to say they would grade games and that they didn't.
3. The FTC doesn't have the time or resources or finances to go after things like this. Sure, it should, but the video game collector market is probably just not big enough. Limited resources, limited budgets, limited time. Most agencies need like a signficant return on human capital in order to make these things work.
I can see some tapes being worth money, there are plenty of movies that have been released on VHS tapes that never made it to other mediums, as well as some movies having horrible DVD/Blu Ray releases because the movie was cut to fit a different aspect ratio.
Thank you for revealing what the world needs to see. We appreciate it.
I don't think the world cares about video games that much when they're paying $5-10/gallon gas and can't feed their kids
4:49 That's my birthday :D
Great birthday present I didn't even know I got!
So my mint condition copy of Debbie Does Dallas on VHS isn't worth getting graded?
...dang it....
Why would a sealed copy of a movie that's readily available on blue-raye and other formats in it's completely unchanged form be so valuable. I could understand the hype if we were talking about a movie where post launch shenanigans had made the original theatrical release pretty much unobtainable (looking at you George Lucas), but not for some random movie which is still available via a modern medium.
The retro video games are available as well on the modern emulator systems :-)
Becouse it comes in its og package
@@essdee800 emulators play old games, but you still have to get the ROM, and the only way to get it legally is buying the original cartridge/cd/dvd from someone and then dumping it, assuming they are in a working condition to be dumped, see Linus Tech Tips and the attempt to dump an original Super Mario RPG cartridge
as a vhs collector it's definitely more about the nostalgia and experience of it rather than the quality, that being said if i'm paying hundreds of thousands of dollars i'd better be getting hundreds of thousands of tapes
Glad to see you’re still doing your thing. Was worried when all that Twitter “cancel” nonsense was going on
Impressive video and work as always, Karl! I never click on videos as fast as I do yours. I remember collecting VHS like, 20 years ago now (started with horror and action). I still have my shelf in the basement!
I really hope price continue to drop. Some of my best memories with this hobby was just going out and finding an old game either I've never tried or never owned to begin with and being glad it wasn't no more than ~$20 from what little money I was earning back then. Now, the prices are crippling to the point I had to say no to quite a lot of finds just because it would be far too expensive just to pick up.
Was watching a Pawn Stars clip earlier, and was really surprised that they were using someone from WATA as one of their experts.
I heard something else when he said pawn stars
Honestly, it doesn't really matter what "experts" they bring for an item. 95% of the stuff on the show are things the shop already owns and all haggling/experts is purely for entertainment.
@@ForeverLaxx I know. I don't know how recent it was when they brought them on. I was just surprised, even with the controversy that has surrounded them for quite a while. Might've been before all that went down.
Thanks for keeping us up to date!
The thing I like most about the video game community is that there are so many sub genres of ways to enjoy video games. There's professional gamers, speed runners, for me personally I just like to play a game to finish it, maybe play it again to play it a different way. Then there's video game collectors. And it's a shame that a part of the industry would be able to ruin the collection aspect of the video game industry. I imagine collecting video games was expensive enough, and then the prices just explode. Not fair at all.
I absolutely love scams getting exposed. you’re a hero
Amazing when a youtube video is so well researched and organized that it can inspire a law firm to file a lawsuit. Whether the lawsuit is successful or not, Karl is an absolute legend for things getting this far
Sadly, this is actually a common practice with authenticaters and auction houses. Not just Wata Games, but even smaller things like pawn shops, including the show Pawn Stars did this (which Wata has stared in)
What did the pawn stars do
I love VHS tapes but shipping costs nearly $10 and I sold / donated my old collection so I don't have them after moving to a new state. I miss my old VHS collection.
There's this other collector who "responded" to your points by insisting there was no market manipulation going on, and that you'd totally changed your mind on game collecting bc he took some interviews you did way out of context.
Now I wonder what he thinks now, lol.
4:20 Hopefully they'll give you a percentage of their attorney fees! No one wins in a class-action lawsuit except the attorneys. All the "victims" get a check for $1.09, while the lawyers (on both sides) walk away with millions.
Despite being (currently) aware of 'the 20 year cycle', if you told me back in 2000 VHS would be collector's items id have told you that's crazy.
Now what's actually crazy is not just seeing it but experiencing the cycle first had. Getting old is a fuckin trip mate
I saw Heritage Auctions at the TooManyGames convention. I was poking my friends going, “It’s the Karl Jobst scam people!!!”
Never underestimate people who want a "complete collection" of every release of a film, or those that see value in an object because it is awful. I think the sealed vhs market will support a small high end clientele of people that just want to be different.
It could be. However, I don't think that it will be anything like what the retro video game market has become, because most buyers are more wary.
I'm in charge of the books and media department at a thrift store, and personally, I've always decided not to contribute to over inflated speculator markets. I rarely ever put a price higher than 4.99 on a NES game. Afterall, how can the store make a profit if we set collectors items at a price so high no one can buy them?
Great news! Though seeing this thumbnail and the video only being 12 minutes came as a surprise, congrats on becoming a journalist too.
It would be really cool to see you back on Rekieta Law to discuss this lawsuit and general situation.
It finally happened. We have won.
@@Soapy_Papoose yeah, but at least let me celebrate
Check the early life of all the people involved here. You won't be surprised.
j's