Being on the payroll does not equate to agreement with the vision and purpose of the house. Anyone who serves in a house of worship needs to be a worshiper first and foremost. To negate that is a fault in the leadership that needs to be corrected. If a musician wants to serve in music ministry, or an audio engineer as the front of house mixer, or camera operator as a videographer, or a volunteer to serve in security, parking aide, custodial work or whatever, the heart of service is that of worship to the Lord, not the service/skill itself. Anyone participating in service should be members at this church and should be required to take any necessary classes in their understanding of the message of the gospel so that all volunteers know to whom their services are for. Anyone who is allowed to come in and perform a task without being required to have the heart of worship to the Lord is what I would call a contractor, such as a plumber, roofer, carpet layer, HVAC tech, electrician, etc. They don't serve the function of the Kingdom. They serve the function of the building and the church is not a building. I think this is a good thing to have this exposed because it will require ministries to get to the heart of the matter and refocus our attention to the real reason we should be in church; we recognize who Christ is and what he has provided to us and a desire to follow him because of that realization. Many people go for the music, but if they leave when the musicians get fired, they should examine their hearts as to why they were there in the first place. Many people give in order to get a tax write-off, but if the church looses it's 501-c status and can no longer deduct those contributions, they may stop giving and if so, will need to consider the real motive for giving in the first place.
You assume much here and basing it on your own personal ideology and not the words of christ. You should pray for clarity because I disagree with pretty much everything you said but I base my views on the word and not my personal prejudices like you did.
@@GroundbreakGames Friend, I respect your desire to express your disagreement, however my praying for clarity must be from a place of misunderstanding and misapplying God's Word and not merely a disagreement of opinion based on how one feels about the topic. I believe our personal views should be directed by the Spirit through God's Word, bringing our hearts and minds to alignment with His (Phi. 2:5, 1Cor. 2:16). So I agree with you here. However, there has never been a time where it was accepted (Old Testament or New) where an unbeliever was commissioned for the purpose of worship. Jesus never sent any of the disciples to do anything until they sat under His teaching and were commissioned (Mark 3:13). While it's true that God had spoken through a donkey and a witch on separate occasions, that was the exception, not the rule. But with regards to His people, there is a requirement of consecration. The priests were required to be cleaned before entering the tabernacle for service (Ex. 29) and worship was part of the service duty (1Chr. 6:32). So when it comes to worship, there is a heart matter that must be addressed first. Jesus quoted Isaiah about the attitude of the heart and its importance (Mat. 15:8-9). With this in mind, the position of our hearts is paramount to service to God. What pertains to the Church, pertains to Christ (Act. 9:4) and our service is to Him alone (Col. 3:23-24, Rom.12:6-8). We are instructed to not be partnered with unbelievers because we are to be his representatives (2 Cor. 6:14-18). And while there's nothing particularly wrong with getting payment for the work one does in church (Mat. 20), it's important to remember, the workers belong to their master, and those who claim the gospel should get their living from the gospel (1Cor. 9:14). Biblically and practically speaking, it is unbalanced to make one's living from ministry and not believe it.
Yep, that's the spiritual difference between the soul who cries out Abba and understands the will of God and offerings of praise from the soul who sees it as work. It can only come from the Holy spirit . The worship may be good but it won't be anointed by God's spirit. Scary to think you can worship God in vain
Thank you brother T, I always appreciate your comments and insights! I believe the examples you gave are probably considered cults. They have a much different standard than most churches do. If I was a member of a church and terrible things like that were going on, I would feel obligated to take a stand against it. (And have done so.) As far as non-Christians, being a part of a worship team, whether you are the lead, or the drummer, that is wrong. Of course, it's hard to judge someone's heart. But, if the church leadership was aware of that, they should be held responsible. That is not the same thing as someone that is hired to pave the church parking lot, or someone that attends the church. If you are in any position to represent the Church, you should be a believer.
Bet you a lot of people in that audience don't believe either. Are there for community or family reasons. The church got them in the building. If all the church is doing is speaking to the already believers, seems like a wasted opportunity. Church should view it as a wonderful chance to bring the scripter to those that otherwise would not hear it.
Consider this. Having an atheist playing in church is one way of getting an atheist thru the door and to hear the word he otherwise may never hear. "And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?" (Rom. 10:14-15). The atheist is in a mission field s/he cannot escape hearing the word. Don't forget God's word is alive and sharper than any double edged sword (Heb. 4:12) and when his word goes out it does not return void but accomplishes what he will and achieve the purpose for which he sent it (Is. 55:11). You must trust God on this. The question is, how good is that church at preaching the word, making a defence for the gospel (I Peter: 3:15), and evangelizing? If not, then it needs a reset.
The best attitude for a worship musician is that you are just another bloke worshipping who happens to be charged with playing something. If you are up there from a strictly performance standpoint you are incorrect. I believe this problem increases as the size of a church increases, directly impacting mega churches a lot more.
If the church hardly does anything about fraudsters and child molesters, do you really think this will have much of an impact? I think it will barely register
Remove the money factor and all the atheist musicians would flee from churches, because at first that is what brought them to play. If churches gives more importancy to music than to Christ and the preaching of the gospel then those would ended up with all kinds of musicians. Congregations like that wont heard sane doctrine....just chords and melodies...it won't lead them to repentace.
I find it quite fascinating that this is happening. The thing that most people completely miss is that all people are children of God, and in Him we live and move and have our being. People also mistake organizations made up of mostly Christians as the church. I think a big awakening is happening when people begin realizing what I have just said. God is every bit as present and at work in the lives of those who are called atheists, as He is in the ones that are calling people atheists. It seems that a great awakening to the corrupted religious system known as evangelical christianity is well in progress, and people are hearing good news, having broken hearts healed, being set free from bondage, beginning to see clearly, being delivered from oppression, and seeing restoration in their lives. This is wonderful news. Not so much for institutional, organized so called church.
@@MrWood-qd6kr John is using metaphor when he speaks of the devil being the father of anything. In Acts chapter 17 Luke uses the word genos when he wrote what Paul was speaking to the pagans in Athens. Every human being is in fact an offspring (genos) of God and in Him we live and move and have our being. Genos is also the root of the word anagennao that is translated "begotten again" when Peter describes what happened to humanity in the resurrection of Jesus Christ. We are died in Adam and we all were made alive in Christ. Jesus Christ absorbed and became all of humanity in His incarnation. When He died and after that, the judgment, we died with Him and were judged in Him. When He rose, we rose with Him. We have been born again and judged righteous, redeemed, reconciled and justified in Him. Whether or not we have yet become aware of this, it is finished. We are all heirs and when we become aware of this truth in this age or ages to come, we begin to experience the benefits of our inheritance. This is the gospel. No bad news in it, only good news.
I’m not agreeing with this. This isn’t a church problem. It’s a musician problem. Not everyone is a mega church musician. The majority are small church musicians who are tied to their church, grew up at that site, learned on the church (didn’t come skilled but rather learned every Sunday and Friday nights), and are true Christians or whatever denomination. What you are describing is fakeness. And fakeness is one of the things killing the church, not people shouting for 10 minutes at the end of the service. I’m a musician and if you are serious about being part of worship and congregation, there is nothing wrong with it. However, if you are collecting a check and that’s it, then you are fake and that’s who you are talking about. Fake people are on stage, in the pulpit, and in the congregation. Real recognize real and it’s easy to notice the difference.
While I agree with you, I think the message should be sent to the churches and not the unbeliever. It’s like telling an unsaved person to not date a Christian. It’s the Christians responsibility to not date them. Let’s hold up the standard
Having an atheist playing in church is one way of getting an atheist thru the door and to hear the word he otherwise may never hear. "And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?" (Rom. 10:14-15). The atheist is in a mission field s/he cannot escape hearing the word. Don't forget God's word is alive and sharper than any double edged sword (Heb. 4:12) and when his word goes out it does not return void but accomplishes what he will and achieve the purpose for which he sent it (Is. 55:11). The question is, how good is that church at preaching the word, making a defence for the gospel (I Peter: 3:15), and evangelizing? If not, then it needs a reset.
THE CHURCH of the Lord Yeshua is not overlooking these guys doing the filth they are doing. Many right-standing men are speaking out against false teachers. Yeshua has spoken!! Matthew 16:18.
Im going to have to disagree with you with the conclusion you came to. If you’re going to be ministering about Jesus then you need to believe in Jesus! Period! If not then sit down, the Lord will find and or send someone to fill the void. We as Christians shouldn’t be pressed just because that musician can really play great music, if your heart isn’t for Christ how then can you minister effectively to God’s people..?
These commentaries are well produced but the content is a stretch. Those who denounced Hillsong did so because of what they were experiencing via “the church”. The church and its leaders have always been under fire. But this is a disconnected overreach to support a topic that’s not as valid as it seems.
It's the church's decision which musicians they want to hire, but people shouldn't be banned based on their religious belief or lack thereof. If we start doing that, then it could be justified to ban Christian musicians to play at universities, just for being Christian.
All of the scandals that you’ve mentioned has been addressed by many Christians, but it all depends on what circles you are around. I’m just being introduced to your channel, and I will say it’s important for you to see your music as more than a job and as service to God. When we see it that way, a lot of preachers will be removed from the pulpit and musicians will not have a Sunday gig. God would much rather have one person with a tambourine, who sings off key, than a full band and worship team whose lips praise Him, but hearts are far away. The church has replaced holiness with excellence. We are less concerned with what God is worth and ask ourselves the question “what works musically or what can be preached to get the crowd excited”? There has been a silent war between preachers and musicians. A good amount of it has been the pastors fault. The answers that are being presented are doing more harm than good. It’s time to get back to scripture (something that we never should’ve left). I don’t want an atheist playing at church as much as I don’t want a Muslim or a Hindu doing it.
I really don't think it matters: the real thing we have to acknowledge is that churches are a BUSINESS and they're hiring musicians to do a JOB. Personal beliefs should stay personal. Plus atheist musicians generally don't cause any problems. It's always the hardcore believers who touch kids...
Having an atheist playing in church is one way of getting an atheist thru the door and to hear the word he otherwise may never hear. "And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?" (Rom. 10:14-15). The atheist is in a mission field s/he cannot escape hearing the word. Don't forget God's word is alive and sharper than any double edged sword (Heb. 4:12) and when his word goes out it does not return void but accomplishes what he will and achieve the purpose for which he sent it (Is. 55:11). The question is, how good is that church at preaching the word, making a defence for the gospel (I Peter: 3:15), and evangelizing? If not, then it needs a reset.
I'm not a christian and I definitely do church gigs if I'm asked, I even worked as a church organist for a while. I have no problem with it myself; it's not up to me to decide what other people should believe or criticise them for their beliefs. I also know very well that some people need to believe in some kind of supernatural force to be able to cope, and I'm more than happy if I can do a little bit to help them find the solace they need. If the congregation has problems with hiring somebody from outside their own circuits, well, I suppose they don't hire me. It's not as if they don't know.
Never too late until God says....deal with your local church and let others deal with theirs. Anyone providing that much impact to the local church body and liturgy needs to be part of the body. Only believers are part of the body of Christ. Don't compromise, God does not embrace compromise. Is God not God? And is He not able to do what needs to be done? Some churches have over complicated things. (Over production and professionalization vs worship).
If you actually teach the Word strongly, which far too many leadership teams don't, the the heat in the kitchen will either drive them tho their knees or out the door. :)
Using a secular musician for a commercial offering such as Kerry Livgren, but for WORSHIP a non-Spiritual person cannot usher in The Holy Spirit. But, we have been so caught in professionalism and perfection that we have forgotten that God is a Spirit and we must Worship Him in Spirit and in Truth. I have seen Revival break out because of a oops on platform.
I could relate to what this guy is talking about as a church musician myself I’ve seen pastors higher non-believers and atheist into the church, but wanna have a whole Nother set of rules for the believer musicians I’ve even been in situations when many years ago they had me go and play in the church for free and pay the nonbeliever top dollar to play in the church and when I found this out many years ago, I called the mess out of the leader ship, and I packed up my equipment and I left been out of church for 7 to 8 years and what I did in that time. Was sharpen my skills even more and elevated my skills to the pro level and I join the church like a year ago and I told them upfront any funny business. Any type of church abuse any hypocrisy I’m gone and its been great ever since. .
You're one of the few Christians I've seen speaking out about fraud and "unchristianly" ethical lapses while the church is silent. I can also see that it's not your most popular video. That's where we are at and it's no wonder that belief and church attendance are dwindling overall.
He shouldn't sound/seem like Allen Parr to you (or anyone). He's exhibited ZERO apologetic knowledge or wisdom. He also hasn't shown any expository biblical/scriptural connectivity between what he's espousing (even tho', YES, the topics brought up in his vids do need to be addressed, acknowledged & considered). That said, he seems to be approaching it from a more BUSINESS perspective than Biblical/Scriptural (as well as Spiritual & Personal)
I was on board until you said to embrace it. In what way is embracing apostasy a good thing? That's very unhelpful pragmatism which I would not want to associate with you, given your other video I've listened to. The correct answer is to root it out and revert to having no musician if need be. God doesn't need any man and neither should His church. Also, to your point of the importance of 'music ministry' in church life and drawing people to church. That's another error. While any bait which is not sinful to draw people to the gospel message is ok, every bait is optional and dispensable. Not least because only singing is recorded in the Bible of the early church. The church thrived and grew based on the simple proclamation of the gospel message as the Holy Spirit have them utterance, not by any mood manipulations (which too much of church mission today is), musical or otherwise.
@@metaldave08096 And comments like yours remind me of the importance of sharing the truth with folks like you, lest they believe in some Christ that doesn't exist. The dude is right, theologically. Whether you like it or not. At least he has taken the time to share it.
How about find out why they are in the midst of the church but have no interest in believing what the church believes? How about actually having relationship with those who you hire?
Good question. Perhaps the musicians just want to gain the experience of playing music with others, or just enjoy playing in general regardless of who they are playing for. I’m an atheist myself, and I was offered to join a Pentecostal church band. I politely said no because I’m already in 2 bands as it is, also the Pentecostals are a bit too much for me. However if I wasn’t in a band at the time I might be tempted to say yes regardless of my lack of belief, just for the experience of playing with other musicians.
Having an atheist playing in church is one way of getting an atheist thru the door and to hear the word he otherwise may never hear. "And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?" (Rom. 10:14-15). The atheist is in a mission field s/he cannot escape hearing the word. Don't forget God's word is alive and sharper than any double edged sword (Heb. 4:12) and when his word goes out it does not return void but accomplishes what he will and achieve the purpose for which he sent it (Is. 55:11). The question is, how good is that church at preaching the word, making a defence for the gospel (I Peter: 3:15), and evangelizing? If not, then it needs a reset.
well not so strange, theres plenty of atheist pastors after all. When its a cash$$$$G business what do you expect? Just because they have a fancy title "pastor" (or "reverend fish fry" "bishop" "apostle" "worship pastor" "prophet" etc) we can no longer assume they are genuine God fearing born again spirit filled bible believing men of God
Many atheists say they have better morals and principles than religious people. Fair enough, but what does it say about them if they're playing in a church's music ministry just for the money? If I were an atheist, I wouldn't want to be anywhere near a church in the first place. I don't feel even comfortable playing music in a church of a denomination I don't theologically agree with - not just for my sake, but because they would be much better off with a musician of that denomination. But then again, I have principles.
I'm a non-believer who performs with churches, and I can assure you that it's not just a paycheck for all of us. I love the message of Jesus, and the message of the songs, and I care about supporting the faith of the congregation. I just don't believe in all the supernatural stuff. For example, the song "God Will Take Care of You". I don't believe that God will cast a magical spell to make everything okay, but if you follow the teachings of Jesus, you'll be able to find strength to overcome your troubles. I think many Christians feel the same way, even though our underlying beliefs are different.
Bottom line is that you should not be allowed to work as a church musician. Regardless of how you feel about the whole church experience, the Bible is clear about it. It’s not your fault, it’s the fault of the church leadership. They shouldn’t allow you to work for the church. Attend, yes. Work in a ministry, no.
Consider this. Having an atheist playing in church is one way of getting an atheist thru the door and to hear the word he otherwise may never hear. "And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?" (Rom. 10:14-15). The atheist is in a mission field s/he cannot escape hearing the word. Don't forget God's word is alive and sharper than any double edged sword (Heb. 4:12) and when his word goes out it does not return void but accomplishes what he will and achieve the purpose for which he sent it (Is. 55:11). You must trust God on this. The question is, how good is that church at preaching the word, making a defence for the gospel (I Peter: 3:15), and evangelizing? If not, then it needs a reset.
A Denomination should have plenty of Musicians where it can choose from. I'm not in agreement with embracing The whole Atheistic mentality in the church. Sure all people ought to be welcomed, however, participating in front of the Church before The Lord, is going to create problems.
Best believe I’m making money off the church 🙏🏼 I do believe in spirituality just not Christianity at all. Sorta fall into the agnostic spiritual leaning type of person. Take that for what it is. But yea like what you said in the video, churches are super corrupt and hide a lot of stuff under the rug. From what I know the church I’m playing at dont do anything crazy like that but I just sorta play and leave as soon as I can. I wish the church was actually a place for where the downtrodden could go to instead of being judged for what dress you’re wearing. No wonder Jesus flipped the table.
I have never heard of church musicians being paid! Our church worship team is entirely volunteer, but we are also a smaller church (about 150 members). Probably the best way for churches to assure that their worship team is not staffed by nonbelievers, is to make it voluntary also. Atheists are unlikely to perform if they are not getting paid. Also, many larger churches have worship teams that are more semi-pro and there are very high expectations on performance from them, instead of focusing on the Word of God and Jesus Christ.
This is true, but it also applies to the sacred cow: the preacher. Some preachers do not believe and or they do not preach the truth about what they believe. Is the solution to make them volunteer? Could it be possible that preaching should have always been a volunteer position?
@@charlesurdy-barnes413Christ preached for free and also the gift of salvation is free. Therefore, preaching should always be voluntary and just to be performed one or two days max per week...that would filter those after $ and want just to live off the church goers. Megachurches are a mistake in my humble opinion they are no real.
I will never accept pay for being on the worship team. If traveling to another church, maybe travel expenses but then I would donate it back (and get a tax receipt :)
If there is any question that anyone in ministry is not indwelt with the Holy Spirit they should be identified and removed from ministry. Embracing non-believers in a ministry position is the absolute opposite thing that churches should do. Period. Go back to congregants volunteering to play. If they aren't willing to do it for free, they shouldn't be doing it.
@@02WIFE My worship team is 100% volunteer. On most Sundays we have a lead who sings and plays acoustic, keyboards, electric guitar, bass, drums, and one or two back-up singers. No one singing acapella. We just enjoy worshiping the Lord with music, and don't mind doing it for free. Oh yeah-the entire A/V team are volunteers as well.
Consider this. Having an atheist playing in church is one way of getting an atheist thru the door and to hear the word he otherwise may never hear. "And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?" (Rom. 10:14-15). The atheist is in a mission field s/he cannot escape hearing the word. Don't forget God's word is alive and sharper than any double edged sword (Heb. 4:12) and when his word goes out it does not return void but accomplishes what he will and achieve the purpose for which he sent it (Is. 55:11). You must trust God on this. The question is, how good is that church at preaching the word, making a defence for the gospel (I Peter: 3:15), and evangelizing? If not, then it needs a reset.
@@johnc.8298 I would never reject anyone who wants to come and hear God's word. But a position in ministry is a leadership position. No one should be in ministry if they are not actual Christians. Obviously we don't know who is indwelt with the Holy Spirit and who isn't, but where we know for a fact someone isn't they should not be in ministry. Period. As for your position that allowing someone to be part of ministry in order that they hear the word, I am reminded of Matthew 13:19 - "When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart. This is the one on whom seed was sown beside the road." If they are willing to play in church but still call themselves atheists, then it is doubtful that the sermons will move the needle. Instead, you expose your entire church to unchristian leadership.
Being on the payroll does not equate to agreement with the vision and purpose of the house. Anyone who serves in a house of worship needs to be a worshiper first and foremost. To negate that is a fault in the leadership that needs to be corrected. If a musician wants to serve in music ministry, or an audio engineer as the front of house mixer, or camera operator as a videographer, or a volunteer to serve in security, parking aide, custodial work or whatever, the heart of service is that of worship to the Lord, not the service/skill itself. Anyone participating in service should be members at this church and should be required to take any necessary classes in their understanding of the message of the gospel so that all volunteers know to whom their services are for. Anyone who is allowed to come in and perform a task without being required to have the heart of worship to the Lord is what I would call a contractor, such as a plumber, roofer, carpet layer, HVAC tech, electrician, etc. They don't serve the function of the Kingdom. They serve the function of the building and the church is not a building.
I think this is a good thing to have this exposed because it will require ministries to get to the heart of the matter and refocus our attention to the real reason we should be in church; we recognize who Christ is and what he has provided to us and a desire to follow him because of that realization. Many people go for the music, but if they leave when the musicians get fired, they should examine their hearts as to why they were there in the first place. Many people give in order to get a tax write-off, but if the church looses it's 501-c status and can no longer deduct those contributions, they may stop giving and if so, will need to consider the real motive for giving in the first place.
You assume much here and basing it on your own personal ideology and not the words of christ. You should pray for clarity because I disagree with pretty much everything you said but I base my views on the word and not my personal prejudices like you did.
@@GroundbreakGames Friend, I respect your desire to express your disagreement, however my praying for clarity must be from a place of misunderstanding and misapplying God's Word and not merely a disagreement of opinion based on how one feels about the topic. I believe our personal views should be directed by the Spirit through God's Word, bringing our hearts and minds to alignment with His (Phi. 2:5, 1Cor. 2:16). So I agree with you here.
However, there has never been a time where it was accepted (Old Testament or New) where an unbeliever was commissioned for the purpose of worship. Jesus never sent any of the disciples to do anything until they sat under His teaching and were commissioned (Mark 3:13). While it's true that God had spoken through a donkey and a witch on separate occasions, that was the exception, not the rule. But with regards to His people, there is a requirement of consecration. The priests were required to be cleaned before entering the tabernacle for service (Ex. 29) and worship was part of the service duty (1Chr. 6:32). So when it comes to worship, there is a heart matter that must be addressed first. Jesus quoted Isaiah about the attitude of the heart and its importance (Mat. 15:8-9).
With this in mind, the position of our hearts is paramount to service to God. What pertains to the Church, pertains to Christ (Act. 9:4) and our service is to Him alone (Col. 3:23-24, Rom.12:6-8). We are instructed to not be partnered with unbelievers because we are to be his representatives (2 Cor. 6:14-18). And while there's nothing particularly wrong with getting payment for the work one does in church (Mat. 20), it's important to remember, the workers belong to their master, and those who claim the gospel should get their living from the gospel (1Cor. 9:14). Biblically and practically speaking, it is unbalanced to make one's living from ministry and not believe it.
Yep, that's the spiritual difference between the soul who cries out Abba and understands the will of God and offerings of praise from the soul who sees it as work. It can only come from the Holy spirit . The worship may be good but it won't be anointed by God's spirit. Scary to think you can worship God in vain
*Atheists should always be welcomed into the church, but partaking in ministry is a whole other story.*
Yeah, atheists don't deserve the free money and boy booty, true.
Thank you brother T, I always appreciate your comments and insights!
I believe the examples you gave are probably considered cults. They have a much different standard than most churches do.
If I was a member of a church and terrible things like that were going on, I would feel obligated to take a stand against it. (And have done so.)
As far as non-Christians, being a part of a worship team, whether you are the lead, or the drummer, that is wrong.
Of course, it's hard to judge someone's heart. But, if the church leadership was aware of that, they should be held responsible.
That is not the same thing as someone that is hired to pave the church parking lot, or someone that attends the church.
If you are in any position to represent the Church, you should be a believer.
OMG, I know so many Atheists that have played for Churches, Quartet Groups, Etc.
Pedestrians, too!
Bet you a lot of people in that audience don't believe either. Are there for community or family reasons. The church got them in the building. If all the church is doing is speaking to the already believers, seems like a wasted opportunity. Church should view it as a wonderful chance to bring the scripter to those that otherwise would not hear it.
Any non believer does not belong in the church music team-period.
Consider this. Having an atheist playing in church is one way of getting an atheist thru the door and to hear the word he otherwise may never hear. "And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?" (Rom. 10:14-15). The atheist is in a mission field s/he cannot escape hearing the word. Don't forget God's word is alive and sharper than any double edged sword (Heb. 4:12) and when his word goes out it does not return void but accomplishes what he will and achieve the purpose for which he sent it (Is. 55:11). You must trust God on this. The question is, how good is that church at preaching the word, making a defence for the gospel (I Peter: 3:15), and evangelizing? If not, then it needs a reset.
The best attitude for a worship musician is that you are just another bloke worshipping who happens to be charged with playing something. If you are up there from a strictly performance standpoint you are incorrect. I believe this problem increases as the size of a church increases, directly impacting mega churches a lot more.
If the church hardly does anything about fraudsters and child molesters, do you really think this will have much of an impact? I think it will barely register
John Gray: NC
Remove the money factor and all the atheist musicians would flee from churches, because at first that is what brought them to play. If churches gives more importancy to music than to Christ and the preaching of the gospel then those would ended up with all kinds of musicians. Congregations like that wont heard sane doctrine....just chords and melodies...it won't lead them to repentace.
You take music lessons and volunteer at your church
Remove the money factor, and alot of so called believing musicians would leave!😂
I find it quite fascinating that this is happening. The thing that most people completely miss is that all people are children of God, and in Him we live and move and have our being.
People also mistake organizations made up of mostly Christians as the church.
I think a big awakening is happening when people begin realizing what I have just said.
God is every bit as present and at work in the lives of those who are called atheists, as He is in the ones that are calling people atheists.
It seems that a great awakening to the corrupted religious system known as evangelical christianity is well in progress, and people are hearing good news, having broken hearts healed, being set free from bondage, beginning to see clearly, being delivered from oppression, and seeing restoration in their lives.
This is wonderful news. Not so much for institutional, organized so called church.
It is not true that everyone is a child of God. In John 8:44, Jesus lets us know that some people are children of the devil.
@@MrWood-qd6kr John is using metaphor when he speaks of the devil being the father of anything.
In Acts chapter 17 Luke uses the word genos when he wrote what Paul was speaking to the pagans in Athens. Every human being is in fact an offspring (genos) of God and in Him we live and move and have our being. Genos is also the root of the word anagennao that is translated "begotten again" when Peter describes what happened to humanity in the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
We are died in Adam and we all were made alive in Christ. Jesus Christ absorbed and became all of humanity in His incarnation. When He died and after that, the judgment, we died with Him and were judged in Him. When He rose, we rose with Him. We have been born again and judged righteous, redeemed, reconciled and justified in Him. Whether or not we have yet become aware of this, it is finished.
We are all heirs and when we become aware of this truth in this age or ages to come, we begin to experience the benefits of our inheritance.
This is the gospel. No bad news in it, only good news.
I know athiest Gospel artist
I’m not agreeing with this. This isn’t a church problem. It’s a musician problem. Not everyone is a mega church musician. The majority are small church musicians who are tied to their church, grew up at that site, learned on the church (didn’t come skilled but rather learned every Sunday and Friday nights), and are true Christians or whatever denomination. What you are describing is fakeness. And fakeness is one of the things killing the church, not people shouting for 10 minutes at the end of the service.
I’m a musician and if you are serious about being part of worship and congregation, there is nothing wrong with it. However, if you are collecting a check and that’s it, then you are fake and that’s who you are talking about. Fake people are on stage, in the pulpit, and in the congregation. Real recognize real and it’s easy to notice the difference.
Def not
If your NOT a believer, stay out of the churches, you have tons of worldly places to play! ...REMNANT2U...
While I agree with you, I think the message should be sent to the churches and not the unbeliever. It’s like telling an unsaved person to not date a Christian. It’s the Christians responsibility to not date them.
Let’s hold up the standard
@@semaj1077 Preists and little boys, scams, denial of medical treatment, yeah those are some high standards… 👍
Aren't churches meant to welcome non believer/ sinners ?
Having an atheist playing in church is one way of getting an atheist thru the door and to hear the word he otherwise may never hear. "And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?" (Rom. 10:14-15). The atheist is in a mission field s/he cannot escape hearing the word. Don't forget God's word is alive and sharper than any double edged sword (Heb. 4:12) and when his word goes out it does not return void but accomplishes what he will and achieve the purpose for which he sent it (Is. 55:11). The question is, how good is that church at preaching the word, making a defence for the gospel (I Peter: 3:15), and evangelizing? If not, then it needs a reset.
I enjoy a lot of your content brother, but this ain't it. A Church should only be equally yoked with believing musicians
THE CHURCH of the Lord Yeshua is not overlooking these guys doing the filth they are doing. Many right-standing men are speaking out against false teachers. Yeshua has spoken!! Matthew 16:18.
Im going to have to disagree with you with the conclusion you came to. If you’re going to be ministering about Jesus then you need to believe in Jesus! Period! If not then sit down, the Lord will find and or send someone to fill the void. We as Christians shouldn’t be pressed just because that musician can really play great music, if your heart isn’t for Christ how then can you minister effectively to God’s people..?
Where is Holiness? Doesn't that matter? It surely matters to GOD ALMIGHTY!!!
These commentaries are well produced but the content is a stretch. Those who denounced Hillsong did so because of what they were experiencing via “the church”. The church and its leaders have always been under fire. But this is a disconnected overreach to support a topic that’s not as valid as it seems.
As long as they pay me, I will play any instrument 😊
I am in awe and incredibly grateful for your testimony. Thank you dear brother for speaking God's truth 🙏 🙏
It's the church's decision which musicians they want to hire, but people shouldn't be banned based on their religious belief or lack thereof. If we start doing that, then it could be justified to ban Christian musicians to play at universities, just for being Christian.
All of the scandals that you’ve mentioned has been addressed by many Christians, but it all depends on what circles you are around.
I’m just being introduced to your channel, and I will say it’s important for you to see your music as more than a job and as service to God. When we see it that way, a lot of preachers will be removed from the pulpit and musicians will not have a Sunday gig. God would much rather have one person with a tambourine, who sings off key, than a full band and worship team whose lips praise Him, but hearts are far away.
The church has replaced holiness with excellence. We are less concerned with what God is worth and ask ourselves the question “what works musically or what can be preached to get the crowd excited”?
There has been a silent war between preachers and musicians. A good amount of it has been the pastors fault. The answers that are being presented are doing more harm than good. It’s time to get back to scripture (something that we never should’ve left). I don’t want an atheist playing at church as much as I don’t want a Muslim or a Hindu doing it.
I really don't think it matters: the real thing we have to acknowledge is that churches are a BUSINESS and they're hiring musicians to do a JOB. Personal beliefs should stay personal. Plus atheist musicians generally don't cause any problems. It's always the hardcore believers who touch kids...
7:00...That's a remarkable percentage! I don't doubt your word.. My church hires a staff of musician leaders to fill in.
Terence is back with another church music video!!! 👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽
Having an atheist playing in church is one way of getting an atheist thru the door and to hear the word he otherwise may never hear. "And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?" (Rom. 10:14-15). The atheist is in a mission field s/he cannot escape hearing the word. Don't forget God's word is alive and sharper than any double edged sword (Heb. 4:12) and when his word goes out it does not return void but accomplishes what he will and achieve the purpose for which he sent it (Is. 55:11). The question is, how good is that church at preaching the word, making a defence for the gospel (I Peter: 3:15), and evangelizing? If not, then it needs a reset.
I'm not a christian and I definitely do church gigs if I'm asked, I even worked as a church organist for a while.
I have no problem with it myself; it's not up to me to decide what other people should believe or criticise them for their beliefs. I also know very well that some people need to believe in some kind of supernatural force to be able to cope, and I'm more than happy if I can do a little bit to help them find the solace they need.
If the congregation has problems with hiring somebody from outside their own circuits, well, I suppose they don't hire me. It's not as if they don't know.
Never too late until God says....deal with your local church and let others deal with theirs. Anyone providing that much impact to the local church body and liturgy needs to be part of the body. Only believers are part of the body of Christ. Don't compromise, God does not embrace compromise. Is God not God? And is He not able to do what needs to be done? Some churches have over complicated things. (Over production and professionalization vs worship).
Anyone played a wedding? If the bride wants *that song* which you don't care for, your job is to play it. You're not marrying her 🙂.
If you actually teach the Word strongly, which far too many leadership teams don't, the the heat in the kitchen will either drive them tho their knees or out the door. :)
Using a secular musician for a commercial offering such as Kerry Livgren, but for WORSHIP a non-Spiritual person cannot usher in The Holy Spirit. But, we have been so caught in professionalism and perfection that we have forgotten that God is a Spirit and we must Worship Him in Spirit and in Truth. I have seen Revival break out because of a oops on platform.
Not surprised….
I could relate to what this guy is talking about as a church musician myself I’ve seen pastors higher non-believers and atheist into the church, but wanna have a whole Nother set of rules for the believer musicians I’ve even been in situations when many years ago they had me go and play in the church for free and pay the nonbeliever top dollar to play in the church and when I found this out many years ago, I called the mess out of the leader ship, and I packed up my equipment and I left been out of church for 7 to 8 years and what I did in that time. Was sharpen my skills even more and elevated my skills to the pro level and I join the church like a year ago and I told them upfront any funny business. Any type of church abuse any hypocrisy I’m gone and its been great ever since. .
You're one of the few Christians I've seen speaking out about fraud and "unchristianly" ethical lapses while the church is silent. I can also see that it's not your most popular video. That's where we are at and it's no wonder that belief and church attendance are dwindling overall.
The way u speak u remind of Allen Parr
He shouldn't sound/seem like Allen Parr to you (or anyone). He's exhibited ZERO apologetic knowledge or wisdom. He also hasn't shown any expository biblical/scriptural connectivity between what he's espousing (even tho', YES, the topics brought up in his vids do need to be addressed, acknowledged & considered). That said, he seems to be approaching it from a more BUSINESS perspective than Biblical/Scriptural (as well as Spiritual & Personal)
Most people including the pastor don't care . They just want the show
how many Christian musicians service will be rejected by the Lord because of ego and ect? will be a sad 😮.
I been playing getting paid for churches for 30 years. I have always tithed at the churches
There's always the possibility that their exposure to the Word and the Holy Spirit will cause them to believe.
Church is just a game to be played for too many. The reasons for being there is lost. Why do you think less people attend.
When you doing business
Religion is out the window
As a Christian id rather be around athiest it's hard dealing with holier than thou Christians
Hmmm
I was on board until you said to embrace it. In what way is embracing apostasy a good thing? That's very unhelpful pragmatism which I would not want to associate with you, given your other video I've listened to. The correct answer is to root it out and revert to having no musician if need be. God doesn't need any man and neither should His church. Also, to your point of the importance of 'music ministry' in church life and drawing people to church. That's another error. While any bait which is not sinful to draw people to the gospel message is ok, every bait is optional and dispensable. Not least because only singing is recorded in the Bible of the early church. The church thrived and grew based on the simple proclamation of the gospel message as the Holy Spirit have them utterance, not by any mood manipulations (which too much of church mission today is), musical or otherwise.
Comments like this make me glad I’m an atheist, keep it up. 👍
@@metaldave08096 And comments like yours remind me of the importance of sharing the truth with folks like you, lest they believe in some Christ that doesn't exist.
The dude is right, theologically. Whether you like it or not. At least he has taken the time to share it.
How about find out why they are in the midst of the church but have no interest in believing what the church believes? How about actually having relationship with those who you hire?
Good question. Perhaps the musicians just want to gain the experience of playing music with others, or just enjoy playing in general regardless of who they are playing for. I’m an atheist myself, and I was offered to join a Pentecostal church band. I politely said no because I’m already in 2 bands as it is, also the Pentecostals are a bit too much for me. However if I wasn’t in a band at the time I might be tempted to say yes regardless of my lack of belief, just for the experience of playing with other musicians.
Having an atheist playing in church is one way of getting an atheist thru the door and to hear the word he otherwise may never hear. "And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?" (Rom. 10:14-15). The atheist is in a mission field s/he cannot escape hearing the word. Don't forget God's word is alive and sharper than any double edged sword (Heb. 4:12) and when his word goes out it does not return void but accomplishes what he will and achieve the purpose for which he sent it (Is. 55:11). The question is, how good is that church at preaching the word, making a defence for the gospel (I Peter: 3:15), and evangelizing? If not, then it needs a reset.
well not so strange, theres plenty of atheist pastors after all. When its a cash$$$$G business what do you expect? Just because they have a fancy title "pastor" (or "reverend fish fry" "bishop" "apostle" "worship pastor" "prophet" etc) we can no longer assume they are genuine God fearing born again spirit filled bible believing men of God
Many atheists say they have better morals and principles than religious people. Fair enough, but what does it say about them if they're playing in a church's music ministry just for the money? If I were an atheist, I wouldn't want to be anywhere near a church in the first place. I don't feel even comfortable playing music in a church of a denomination I don't theologically agree with - not just for my sake, but because they would be much better off with a musician of that denomination. But then again, I have principles.
I'm a non-believer who performs with churches, and I can assure you that it's not just a paycheck for all of us. I love the message of Jesus, and the message of the songs, and I care about supporting the faith of the congregation. I just don't believe in all the supernatural stuff.
For example, the song "God Will Take Care of You". I don't believe that God will cast a magical spell to make everything okay, but if you follow the teachings of Jesus, you'll be able to find strength to overcome your troubles. I think many Christians feel the same way, even though our underlying beliefs are different.
Bottom line is that you should not be allowed to work as a church musician. Regardless of how you feel about the whole church experience, the Bible is clear about it. It’s not your fault, it’s the fault of the church leadership. They shouldn’t allow you to work for the church. Attend, yes. Work in a ministry, no.
@@totallyfrozen Fair enough. I just wanted to clarify that it's not the cynical money grab that some people might think it is.
I wonder about the comparison you made between unrepentant preachers and atheist musicians. I know of atheists with more integrity than that.
I found out a musician in my city was an atheist a decade after seeing him playing in churches and he still does
A gig's a gig even ones telling fantastically absurd stories. It's all theatre.
What about agnostic musicians?
Still wrong. They believe you can't prove God is real.
@@abellewis3062 no one can prove that god is real, that's why people have faith.
@@thekaratecowboymusic Exactly. “You can’t please God without faith.” That’s Bible.
What makes our praise team and also my P & W is the presence of The Holy Spirit. We pray and play. Atheists ? No, no, no, no. Absurd.
We wouldn’t want to play there anyway…
Consider this. Having an atheist playing in church is one way of getting an atheist thru the door and to hear the word he otherwise may never hear. "And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?" (Rom. 10:14-15). The atheist is in a mission field s/he cannot escape hearing the word. Don't forget God's word is alive and sharper than any double edged sword (Heb. 4:12) and when his word goes out it does not return void but accomplishes what he will and achieve the purpose for which he sent it (Is. 55:11). You must trust God on this. The question is, how good is that church at preaching the word, making a defence for the gospel (I Peter: 3:15), and evangelizing? If not, then it needs a reset.
No!
If the church is paying musicians, it's a job - NOT music ministry.
Musicians were paid in the old testament
He never believed!
A Denomination should have plenty of Musicians where it can choose from. I'm not in agreement with embracing The whole Atheistic mentality in the church. Sure all people ought to be welcomed, however, participating in front of the Church before The Lord, is going to create problems.
Best believe I’m making money off the church 🙏🏼 I do believe in spirituality just not Christianity at all. Sorta fall into the agnostic spiritual leaning type of person. Take that for what it is.
But yea like what you said in the video, churches are super corrupt and hide a lot of stuff under the rug. From what I know the church I’m playing at dont do anything crazy like that but I just sorta play and leave as soon as I can.
I wish the church was actually a place for where the downtrodden could go to instead of being judged for what dress you’re wearing. No wonder Jesus flipped the table.
I have never heard of church musicians being paid! Our church worship team is entirely volunteer, but we are also a smaller church (about 150 members). Probably the best way for churches to assure that their worship team is not staffed by nonbelievers, is to make it voluntary also. Atheists are unlikely to perform if they are not getting paid. Also, many larger churches have worship teams that are more semi-pro and there are very high expectations on performance from them, instead of focusing on the Word of God and Jesus Christ.
*😂 your town must suck if you never heard of church musicians getting paid.*
This is true, but it also applies to the sacred cow: the preacher. Some preachers do not believe and or they do not preach the truth about what they believe. Is the solution to make them volunteer? Could it be possible that preaching should have always been a volunteer position?
Well, you don't have a clue.
You're mixing apples and oranges.
@@charlesurdy-barnes413Christ preached for free and also the gift of salvation is free. Therefore, preaching should always be voluntary and just to be performed one or two days max per week...that would filter those after $ and want just to live off the church goers. Megachurches are a mistake in my humble opinion they are no real.
I will never accept pay for being on the worship team. If traveling to another church, maybe travel expenses but then I would donate it back (and get a tax receipt :)
You got unsaved people in the pulpit like Carlton Pierson and unsaved people through out the church
It ain't just Carlton! A lot of these fake ass Bishops and so called Apostles and Prophets probably sit right there in your own pulpit
If there is any question that anyone in ministry is not indwelt with the Holy Spirit they should be identified and removed from ministry. Embracing non-believers in a ministry position is the absolute opposite thing that churches should do. Period. Go back to congregants volunteering to play. If they aren't willing to do it for free, they shouldn't be doing it.
Sing accapella
@@02WIFE My worship team is 100% volunteer. On most Sundays we have a lead who sings and plays acoustic, keyboards, electric guitar, bass, drums, and one or two back-up singers. No one singing acapella. We just enjoy worshiping the Lord with music, and don't mind doing it for free. Oh yeah-the entire A/V team are volunteers as well.
Consider this. Having an atheist playing in church is one way of getting an atheist thru the door and to hear the word he otherwise may never hear. "And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?" (Rom. 10:14-15). The atheist is in a mission field s/he cannot escape hearing the word. Don't forget God's word is alive and sharper than any double edged sword (Heb. 4:12) and when his word goes out it does not return void but accomplishes what he will and achieve the purpose for which he sent it (Is. 55:11). You must trust God on this. The question is, how good is that church at preaching the word, making a defence for the gospel (I Peter: 3:15), and evangelizing? If not, then it needs a reset.
@@johnc.8298 I would never reject anyone who wants to come and hear God's word. But a position in ministry is a leadership position. No one should be in ministry if they are not actual Christians. Obviously we don't know who is indwelt with the Holy Spirit and who isn't, but where we know for a fact someone isn't they should not be in ministry. Period. As for your position that allowing someone to be part of ministry in order that they hear the word, I am reminded of Matthew 13:19 - "When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart. This is the one on whom seed was sown beside the road." If they are willing to play in church but still call themselves atheists, then it is doubtful that the sermons will move the needle. Instead, you expose your entire church to unchristian leadership.
Read the Bible and pray.