I used to roll my eyes at Omnivision sensors, but the progress from generation to generation is insane. To outdo the big boys in the 1/1.3" range in terms of light gathering and noise is a big win. Can't wait to see what they can do in the 1" range!
Funnily enough, my first exposure to OmniVision was with Xiaomi. When Xiaomi launched the Mi 10 Ultra, it featured an OmniVision sensor for the main camera with the same 1/1.3" sensor size as Samsung's 108MP camera sensor but used 48MP instead. That was the time I realized that OmniVision had built a monster camera sensor. Since then, I've been looking at OmniVision's progress. If OmniVision made a 1" sensor for smartphone cameras, that should put Sony into notice.
@@transporter06csf I agree. I would really love a modern version of the Isocell HMX, since the detail is really excellent. Just with modern sensor technology. I am currently using a Xiaomi Mi 10T pro, and the detail is much better than on modern 200 MP sensors, since it doesn't has 16-to-1 pixel binning but 4-to-1.
@@petouser Exactly I don't understand why settle for 12mp pictures & leave 27mp ones. I don't care that binning more pixels may result in brighter photos, in good to moderate lighting, I always crush the competition in details.
It would be so nice to have a video of you talking about the new raw formats like ultraRAW, Raw+, etc. Knowing your camera style content and knowledge, it would be awesome! Also, really nice video Juan! 😁
This year a lot of manufacturers are using this same OV50H sensor (or slightly customized versions of it). The Xiaomi 14 and 14 pro, the IQOO 12 and 12 pro, the magic 6 and magic 6 pro and the upcoming Huawei p70. However, we will see an even better 1" type sensor from Omnivision the OV50k debut in the Magic 6 Porshce edition this month or next month (Honor might cut it though). Next year rumours suggest we may even see another new 1" type sensor from Omnivision with their Lofic technology in ultra models like the Xiaomi 15 ultra. The price to performance ratio of these omnivisions is very good as they are significantly cheaper than similarly sized sensors from Sony.
I switched from a S24 Ultra to the Xiaomi 14 this week and I'm really loving the phone. Main camera keeps up with Samsung, telephoto does a better job than Samsung's 3 - 4.9x focal length and I don't miss the 5x periscope lens. It's also a significantly lighter phone which feels much better in my hands. BUT I might have to return it since Xiaomi's again suffering from moisture and fogging inside the camera module. I will give it a week to see if it goes away :/
"You can workaround by removing sim card and record 8k video for 10 min. Then wait until it's cool down before inserting sim card back in." It works according to a fb post.
Do you by any chance live in a colder part of the world?im getting this phone but im worried tho I live in the tropics so I guess i might not get this kind of issue. Most I see with this issue are from colder region.
the Vivo X100 Pro's telephoto sensor is from Omnivision and imo is currently the best overall telephoto sensor around, amazing at native zoom but a killer one still at double the native zoom and rivals Samsung as well (and imo beats it thoroughly at times) even though the X100 Pro's native zoom is shorter.
@ 4:41 and @ 5:19 😂😂😂.... Ive been missing this side of Juan for a while now........... Thanks for being different and standing out with your in depth reviews
More sensor options with different tech making the competition better. I like this. And the more i am seeing, the more i am also liking the Xiaomi 14 Ultra, especially the way they add their photography kit and the Leica colors. Makes me believe that the collaboration between Omnivision - Xiaomi - Leica is actually doing something under the hood rather than just trade of money for brand name use.
Omnivision has one of the best sensor for smartphone, IIRC teh first Omnivision OV64 periscope 3.5/3.0x zoom (70/90mm) was on the Huawei P50 and since then to this day a lot of smartphones uses it and is a really high quality sensor, and they had also good one too with the custom 48mp for the Xiaomi 10 Ultra that was a good sensor too.
The analog iso tops at 3200 on most phones (even the 1 inch type flagships). It's usually digital amplification beyond that (similar to extended iso on dedicated cameras). Whether or not such an extended high iso is provided depends on the manufacturer. Xiaomi seems to allow it on most of their phones. My old budget Xiaomi can shoot up to 6400 manually and 12800 on auto (but the analog iso still tops at 3200).
imagine if they put all that technology into a full frame camera... I can understand why Sony cameras still spit out jpegs not worth looking at, not even their phones do much processing. But these other companies could make insanely good cameras if they had better hardware.
I wish we had more options in the USA. I would really like to try many of the phones you show on this channel but they aren't actually available here. Too bad. I don't like how as the years go by we get less and less options in smart phones. The good news is I have about 100 choices in energy drinks. So that's good I guess?...
Once I had Asus Zenfone 2 with Omnivision 13MP sensor. At daylight it had a very good sharpness, even with 3rd party app Open Camera produced one of my lifetime sharpest photo, though at low light it struggled.
Working in healthcare here. The success rate of health education in the public doesn't make me think that education on tech will make any change significant enough for manufacturers to take notice.
I honestly didn't expect this. I'm excited for the next era of mobile imaging. Imagine an advanced 1 inch Omni vision sensor vs Samsung's very own nemesis of Sony...
Hi Juan It was a great video. Do you want a better video quality out of your smartphone like not overly sharpening and heavy noise reduction. You can with Motioncam pro v3. It shoot video without the procession done by the phone processing. Giving you footage like taken from mirrorless.
Definitely agree with all that was said. I feel like eventually, it'll get to the point where Samsung and Apple HAVE to step it up in the camera hardware department one way or another. I really hope that happens soon... because they have been ignoring this issue for far too long. Its gonna bite them in the ass.
"Maybe if we just buy galaxies and iphones EVEN HARDER SamApple will eventually give us the features we want! Yeah! That's the ticket!" -North American Tech "Enthusiasts" 😅
Props to OmniVision for making a name in camera sensor space. It's evident if you have Poco F5. You can take photos in a snap. It's just that fast, imo. The outputs, got no blurring issues just clear image. It's even better , as its paired with Snapdragon 7+ Gen 2 which has a good ISP.
That is bad example thou imo. OV64B on poco f3 f4 f5. Is not that great sensor. It got carried by improvement in ISP. F4 and F5 also got OIS which F3 lacks. The problem with that sensor generation, is the grass colour just doesn't look right. Green and its variation of saturation, tints colour just bad on that sensor. To be honest in daylight shots, which light is abundant, mi 8, pixel 3,4,5 that comes which sony imx 363 does a better job in colour reproduction than OV64B. Albeit it much older sensor. TLDR, OV64B is meh sensor from omnivision. Omnivision improves greatly with their new sensors. But that old OV64B does not fall in that category
Ye a good overheating sensor it is.. try to take a 5min video in a little cold like 10celsius or lower (not even minuses) and boom your main lens is fogged up.. my x14 does it, friends x14 same, and some youtubers talked about it too, check it out, only main cam
Yeah I can't test that here in SoCal. It's "frigid" for us which is like 15C and my camera has had no issues at that temp. The only way I can kinda get it to fog is to blast my cars AC on the phone til it's uncomfortable to hold, and then IMMEDIATELY take it out into contrasting hot sunlight, and then the fogging disappears quick. LOTS of phones will perform similarly when I TRY to make it fog. It's hard building a larger camera system on the back of a phone, and this is an issue that still hit Samsung users up to the S22 Ultra.
@@SomeGadgetGuy so do you say what xiaomi says to this as well, that its normal? I dont see 10 °C is supercold and does it only on main lens not others, and nor my x13 did that or any other phones i had, some ppl said they could fix it heating it like 4k video all night on charge, which i tried but didnt help and not really an ideal thing to do i know. And that moist inside has nowhere to go, i can only hope it doesnt ruin any internals in long term
Oh not normal, we should be pointing it out and working to correct it. Like on proper camera lenses, we have some that are better weather sealed than others. I have some great old canon glass that I can't use in some conditions. Running the phone purposely hot in other conditions probably won't correct for the current weather sealing. What I think we have to be careful with in our tech commentary, is making an issue sound like it's completely never been seen before, or it's a total deal breaker for one phone. The camera change from 13 to 14 is a lot more ambitious than a lot of folks realize, and it seems like that could be an issue for some climates. I think it's TOTALLY appropriate to return or exchange a phone if it cant meet your needs, and we have to hope Xiaomi can correct for this if it is a systemic issue with the phone design, and not limited to a batch of currently made devices. I can say though, that my issues have been better here than with Samsung who needed four generations of Ultras to finally calm down similar problems. It's weird to say, but I actually have more confidence in Xiaomi and Vivo to fix issues like this faster these days.
Love all your reviews, Juan! It's a breath of fresh air than the regular show specs, say opinion, and compare to iPhone. Also what would you recommend between the Xiaomi 14 or OnePlus 12? And do you have any plans to review the Oppo Find X7 Ultra? Thanks!
Totally true. Competition is better for us consumers. Samsung would be so much better if Huawei hadn't suffer the ban. In design, in processing, in the cameras etc. No doubt.
If competition means the manufactures don't hold their aces up their sleeves for well over 5 years with only minor 'upgrades' then naturally everyone is all for it. I bet they have the tech in their 5-10 year plan. but going all out means no 'upgrades' next year and less money for them.
It would also help a little if tech "reviewers" with millions of subscribers didn't always seem to punish companies that are legit first with new features.
I'm waiting for the launch offers tomorrow and make the final call. Both are a good value for money or around it. Xiaomi is light weight and OP has bigger screen n bigger battery.
Xiaomi 12S Ultra, 13 pro, 13 Ultra, 14 Ultra. Vivo X90 Pro and Pro+, X100 Pro. Oppo Find X6 Pro, Find X7 Ultra. The last couple years of Ultra tier Sharp phones.
as always awesome video, thank you for pushing the limits of phone hardware, most people don't care about it, but there are a few of us that are super interested in that
I'm still doubtful of Omnivision's sensor tho as I've been a stern believer of Sony's sensor. I even don't have confidence in Samsung's sensor but that still came in second place compared to Omnivision... But now it seems they are promising tho, especially coming from you. Maybe I should give them a chance 😅 The Vivo V30's main camera is using their sensor while the V29 uses Samsung's sensor. Hopefully I'll be happy with the performance and outcome 🙆🙆 lol
This camera is behind a lot of other cameras phones and have big issues with fogged cameras. I Do not recommend this phone for camera and they're making too many different phones that they can't keep with the software for them. Vivo x100 its the king right now for smartphone camera.
Omnivision has problems with skin tones, Skin doesn't look natural, and moving objects during night shots are extremely shaky, and video is another weakness from that sensor
You can't use it in manual mode, I suspect it's software simulated. But yeah, it's insane sometimes how much light gathering you get with Huawei software sometimes.
I've had pretty good experiences from Samsung actual RAW on their main camera sensors, but seeing other competitors (and especially 1" sensors) I definitely prefer the output on other phones.
I used to roll my eyes at Omnivision sensors, but the progress from generation to generation is insane. To outdo the big boys in the 1/1.3" range in terms of light gathering and noise is a big win.
Can't wait to see what they can do in the 1" range!
This Xiaomi 14 ain't a joke! I will say it beats my Samsung S24 ultra...
Reading your comment I was like "hey I just saw this one UA-cam video that proves the xiaomi really is better!" turns out you're the youtuber haha
@@bprabawabr yeah it really is... samsung needs to fix their stuff
I love my S24 ultra, I just wish Samsung would step it up and put bigger sensors in their flagship series :'(
Eagerly waiting for mi 14
These chinese phones not being sold in the US really sucks…
Funnily enough, my first exposure to OmniVision was with Xiaomi. When Xiaomi launched the Mi 10 Ultra, it featured an OmniVision sensor for the main camera with the same 1/1.3" sensor size as Samsung's 108MP camera sensor but used 48MP instead. That was the time I realized that OmniVision had built a monster camera sensor. Since then, I've been looking at OmniVision's progress. If OmniVision made a 1" sensor for smartphone cameras, that should put Sony into notice.
I prefer the details I get with 27 MP files from Samsung's HMX sensor (Mi 10 pro & Mi note 10 pro & Mi 10T pro)
And then they did with the Honor Magic 6 RSR
@@transporter06csf I agree. I would really love a modern version of the Isocell HMX, since the detail is really excellent. Just with modern sensor technology. I am currently using a Xiaomi Mi 10T pro, and the detail is much better than on modern 200 MP sensors, since it doesn't has 16-to-1 pixel binning but 4-to-1.
@@petouser
Exactly
I don't understand why settle for 12mp pictures & leave 27mp ones.
I don't care that binning more pixels may result in brighter photos, in good to moderate lighting, I always crush the competition in details.
It would be so nice to have a video of you talking about the new raw formats like ultraRAW, Raw+, etc. Knowing your camera style content and knowledge, it would be awesome!
Also, really nice video Juan! 😁
This year a lot of manufacturers are using this same OV50H sensor (or slightly customized versions of it). The Xiaomi 14 and 14 pro, the IQOO 12 and 12 pro, the magic 6 and magic 6 pro and the upcoming Huawei p70. However, we will see an even better 1" type sensor from Omnivision the OV50k debut in the Magic 6 Porshce edition this month or next month (Honor might cut it though). Next year rumours suggest we may even see another new 1" type sensor from Omnivision with their Lofic technology in ultra models like the Xiaomi 15 ultra. The price to performance ratio of these omnivisions is very good as they are significantly cheaper than similarly sized sensors from Sony.
It's so fun to watch!
@@SomeGadgetGuy Yeah. Will keep their competitors on their toes!
I switched from a S24 Ultra to the Xiaomi 14 this week and I'm really loving the phone. Main camera keeps up with Samsung, telephoto does a better job than Samsung's 3 - 4.9x focal length and I don't miss the 5x periscope lens. It's also a significantly lighter phone which feels much better in my hands.
BUT I might have to return it since Xiaomi's again suffering from moisture and fogging inside the camera module. I will give it a week to see if it goes away :/
"You can workaround by removing sim card and record 8k video for 10 min. Then wait until it's cool down before inserting sim card back in." It works according to a fb post.
Do you by any chance live in a colder part of the world?im getting this phone but im worried tho I live in the tropics so I guess i might not get this kind of issue. Most I see with this issue are from colder region.
@@Usersf134ssk this happens in Indonesia too, a tropical country
the Vivo X100 Pro's telephoto sensor is from Omnivision and imo is currently the best overall telephoto sensor around, amazing at native zoom but a killer one still at double the native zoom and rivals Samsung as well (and imo beats it thoroughly at times) even though the X100 Pro's native zoom is shorter.
I put a title on one of the sample shots in this video talking about that too.
@@SomeGadgetGuy yesss i saw that just wish it had its own segment just like this cam haha
@ 4:41 and @ 5:19 😂😂😂.... Ive been missing this side of Juan for a while now........... Thanks for being different and standing out with your in depth reviews
More sensor options with different tech making the competition better. I like this. And the more i am seeing, the more i am also liking the Xiaomi 14 Ultra, especially the way they add their photography kit and the Leica colors. Makes me believe that the collaboration between Omnivision - Xiaomi - Leica is actually doing something under the hood rather than just trade of money for brand name use.
Omnivision has one of the best sensor for smartphone, IIRC teh first Omnivision OV64 periscope 3.5/3.0x zoom (70/90mm) was on the Huawei P50 and since then to this day a lot of smartphones uses it and is a really high quality sensor, and they had also good one too with the custom 48mp for the Xiaomi 10 Ultra that was a good sensor too.
The analog iso tops at 3200 on most phones (even the 1 inch type flagships). It's usually digital amplification beyond that (similar to extended iso on dedicated cameras). Whether or not such an extended high iso is provided depends on the manufacturer.
Xiaomi seems to allow it on most of their phones. My old budget Xiaomi can shoot up to 6400 manually and 12800 on auto (but the analog iso still tops at 3200).
x255 analog gain for binned mode and x63,75 for unbinned mode
imagine if they put all that technology into a full frame camera... I can understand why Sony cameras still spit out jpegs not worth looking at, not even their phones do much processing. But these other companies could make insanely good cameras if they had better hardware.
Competition... Good... Monopoly,.. bad.
The OV64B is my favourite sensor!
Omnivision going from raspberry pi camera to godly sensor killer 1/1.3 sensor
Do you plan to test the Xiaomi 14 Ultra? I'm eyeing this phone since the global version is coming out eventhough it isnt perfect for the US (T-mobile)
Great video. I always enjoy watching a sensor comparison
I wish we had more options in the USA. I would really like to try many of the phones you show on this channel but they aren't actually available here. Too bad. I don't like how as the years go by we get less and less options in smart phones. The good news is I have about 100 choices in energy drinks. So that's good I guess?...
Once I had Asus Zenfone 2 with Omnivision 13MP sensor. At daylight it had a very good sharpness, even with 3rd party app Open Camera produced one of my lifetime sharpest photo, though at low light it struggled.
Working in healthcare here. The success rate of health education in the public doesn't make me think that education on tech will make any change significant enough for manufacturers to take notice.
I honestly didn't expect this. I'm excited for the next era of mobile imaging. Imagine an advanced 1 inch Omni vision sensor vs Samsung's very own nemesis of Sony...
I'd love to see what omnivision could do with more surface area.
Hi Juan It was a great video. Do you want a better video quality out of your smartphone like not overly sharpening and heavy noise reduction. You can with Motioncam pro v3.
It shoot video without the procession done by the phone processing. Giving you footage like taken from mirrorless.
Definitely agree with all that was said. I feel like eventually, it'll get to the point where Samsung and Apple HAVE to step it up in the camera hardware department one way or another. I really hope that happens soon... because they have been ignoring this issue for far too long. Its gonna bite them in the ass.
"Maybe if we just buy galaxies and iphones EVEN HARDER SamApple will eventually give us the features we want! Yeah! That's the ticket!"
-North American Tech "Enthusiasts"
😅
I like competition... As long as I win! 😂😂😂
The only way for the consumer to win is to have access to competitive choices.
I really like your content I always learn something new
Props to OmniVision for making a name in camera sensor space. It's evident if you have Poco F5. You can take photos in a snap. It's just that fast, imo. The outputs, got no blurring issues just clear image. It's even better , as its paired with Snapdragon 7+ Gen 2 which has a good ISP.
That is bad example thou imo. OV64B on poco f3 f4 f5. Is not that great sensor. It got carried by improvement in ISP. F4 and F5 also got OIS which F3 lacks. The problem with that sensor generation, is the grass colour just doesn't look right. Green and its variation of saturation, tints colour just bad on that sensor.
To be honest in daylight shots, which light is abundant, mi 8, pixel 3,4,5 that comes which sony imx 363 does a better job in colour reproduction than OV64B. Albeit it much older sensor.
TLDR, OV64B is meh sensor from omnivision.
Omnivision improves greatly with their new sensors. But that old OV64B does not fall in that category
I like price wars, they're good for consumers like papa Reagan taught me.
Omv64b camera sensor vs imx 882 which is best
Can you compare IMX858 vs JN1 (14 Ultra vs 14), maybe with some RAWs and/or some 50MP shots? :-)
Ye a good overheating sensor it is.. try to take a 5min video in a little cold like 10celsius or lower (not even minuses) and boom your main lens is fogged up.. my x14 does it, friends x14 same, and some youtubers talked about it too, check it out, only main cam
Still like the phone ,better than anything else with this flaw too.
Yeah I can't test that here in SoCal. It's "frigid" for us which is like 15C and my camera has had no issues at that temp.
The only way I can kinda get it to fog is to blast my cars AC on the phone til it's uncomfortable to hold, and then IMMEDIATELY take it out into contrasting hot sunlight, and then the fogging disappears quick. LOTS of phones will perform similarly when I TRY to make it fog.
It's hard building a larger camera system on the back of a phone, and this is an issue that still hit Samsung users up to the S22 Ultra.
@@SomeGadgetGuy so do you say what xiaomi says to this as well, that its normal? I dont see 10 °C is supercold and does it only on main lens not others, and nor my x13 did that or any other phones i had, some ppl said they could fix it heating it like 4k video all night on charge, which i tried but didnt help and not really an ideal thing to do i know. And that moist inside has nowhere to go, i can only hope it doesnt ruin any internals in long term
@@SomeGadgetGuy (what a feeling when one of my fav youtuber replies to me) 😁
Oh not normal, we should be pointing it out and working to correct it. Like on proper camera lenses, we have some that are better weather sealed than others. I have some great old canon glass that I can't use in some conditions.
Running the phone purposely hot in other conditions probably won't correct for the current weather sealing.
What I think we have to be careful with in our tech commentary, is making an issue sound like it's completely never been seen before, or it's a total deal breaker for one phone. The camera change from 13 to 14 is a lot more ambitious than a lot of folks realize, and it seems like that could be an issue for some climates.
I think it's TOTALLY appropriate to return or exchange a phone if it cant meet your needs, and we have to hope Xiaomi can correct for this if it is a systemic issue with the phone design, and not limited to a batch of currently made devices.
I can say though, that my issues have been better here than with Samsung who needed four generations of Ultras to finally calm down similar problems. It's weird to say, but I actually have more confidence in Xiaomi and Vivo to fix issues like this faster these days.
Didn't OmniVision collaborate with Huawei and now also with Honor? Those brands know how to do (night) photography.
Love all your reviews, Juan! It's a breath of fresh air than the regular show specs, say opinion, and compare to iPhone. Also what would you recommend between the Xiaomi 14 or OnePlus 12? And do you have any plans to review the Oppo Find X7 Ultra? Thanks!
Good one 👍 ..The omnivision on moto edge 30 ultra is awesome experience.
No, edge 30 ultra has isocell hp1, just like xiaomi 12t pro
I'm loving what I'm seeing from omnivision...interesting.
I'd like to believe it would sway their choices a little bit but convenience might stay their hands
Competition good! Me likey!
If more Omnivision means more X100 Pro telephotos on more phones, count me in!
How good is that Vivo telephoto... 😍
Totally true. Competition is better for us consumers. Samsung would be so much better if Huawei hadn't suffer the ban. In design, in processing, in the cameras etc. No doubt.
If competition means the manufactures don't hold their aces up their sleeves for well over 5 years with only minor 'upgrades' then naturally everyone is all for it.
I bet they have the tech in their 5-10 year plan. but going all out means no 'upgrades' next year and less money for them.
It would also help a little if tech "reviewers" with millions of subscribers didn't always seem to punish companies that are legit first with new features.
Xiaomi 14 or Oneplus 12? Which one should i buy, from an average smartphone user?
I'm waiting for the launch offers tomorrow and make the final call. Both are a good value for money or around it. Xiaomi is light weight and OP has bigger screen n bigger battery.
What phones have 1 inch sensors?
Xiaomi 12S Ultra, 13 pro, 13 Ultra, 14 Ultra.
Vivo X90 Pro and Pro+, X100 Pro.
Oppo Find X6 Pro, Find X7 Ultra.
The last couple years of Ultra tier Sharp phones.
as always awesome video, thank you for pushing the limits of phone hardware, most people don't care about it, but there are a few of us that are super interested in that
I'm still doubtful of Omnivision's sensor tho as I've been a stern believer of Sony's sensor. I even don't have confidence in Samsung's sensor but that still came in second place compared to Omnivision... But now it seems they are promising tho, especially coming from you. Maybe I should give them a chance 😅 The Vivo V30's main camera is using their sensor while the V29 uses Samsung's sensor. Hopefully I'll be happy with the performance and outcome 🙆🙆 lol
This camera is behind a lot of other cameras phones and have big issues with fogged cameras. I Do not recommend this phone for camera and they're making too many different phones that they can't keep with the software for them. Vivo x100 its the king right now for smartphone camera.
There is no competition. There is only SamApple.
I'll never understand techies working so hard to destroy the future of mobile tech.
Omnivision has problems with skin tones, Skin doesn't look natural, and moving objects during night shots are extremely shaky, and video is another weakness from that sensor
I dont think that's a sensor issue as much as a post processing issue.
Juan, review and display more RAW pictures, please... :')
Oh there's going to be a camera deep dive as I get more samples from it. Those are on my Patreon 👍
Okaaay... 🎉 @@SomeGadgetGuy
You should've asked people what their favorite kind of duck is!
Well? Don't leave us hanging...
@@SomeGadgetGuy Mandarin Duck!
👍
Wow Chinese phones 📱 are pushing hard 🚀
I don't like competition because I'm always losing 😔
Well think of it as "getting more choices" and you'll always win!
idk man do you love competition?
DAE Like Competition??? WYD??? No Cap?
Huawei has iso 409600
You can't use it in manual mode, I suspect it's software simulated. But yeah, it's insane sometimes how much light gathering you get with Huawei software sometimes.
Foggy Vision
Samsung RAW files are terrible. Even if its RAW, it doesn't look natural
I've had pretty good experiences from Samsung actual RAW on their main camera sensors, but seeing other competitors (and especially 1" sensors) I definitely prefer the output on other phones.
That comparison on 2:20, 4:13, and 4:53
BORING
Vivo better
Vivo is making VERY good use of Omnivision sensors too lately...
14 is worse than 13 😂 What an oil painting. I know it's software but man...