CHOPIN and the Rule of the Octave
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- Опубліковано 1 лип 2024
- #Chopin #Composition #ruleoftheoctave
00:00 Intro
00:36 1st original example
01:21 quick analysis
01:45 harmonic reduction
02:10 2nd original example
02:23 quick analysis
02:35 functional equivalence of V7 and vii7
03:07 what this is all about - historical background and context of this bassline
03:48 a figured bass bestseller by D. Kellner
04:14 RO after David Kellner
04:53 Chopin’s lessons with J. Elsner
05:20 prevalent misunderstanding about the RO
05:51 two examples in 18th-century-styles on Chopin’s bass
06:03 1st example: “classical slow movement”
06:28 2nd example: “Allemande”
06:45 integrating a digression to the III
07:17 example as “Schumanesque album-leaf”
07:42 confirming a modulation via cadence
08:06 same modulation in Chopin’s etude
Concept, realization and piano playing by Michael Koch.
Background music: Chopin's Etude E flat major Op. 10, 11 played by my good buddy Payam Pahlevanian, Link:
• Chopin Etüde Op. 10 Nr...
Hey people! Thanks for watching and comments...
I somehow forgot to mention a thing that I probably just demonstrated implicitly: this bassline is an excellent tool for jamming on! (don't forget to transpose lol) if you combine both - so plus the version that does the modulation - you have a clean CHOPIN-APPROVED 16-bar phrase that's worth to put in your pocket! Couldn't be better than this, right?
You and the way you show connections between to
Romantic and baroque style are amazing. You're a great source of inspiration. Thank you very much
Ya welcome! Thx for watching!
Thank you for teaching the real musicianship.
Thanks for passing by, Farshad!
This is not mainstream as well so more credit to you, underrated channel
Great video once again! And super excited to have more videos on RO!
Well done!
Amazing video!
Another mind blowing video. I can assure you that whatever institution you are working at is not paying you enough. I wish they would bring you in as a guest lecturer at the Lamont School of Music at Denver University.
Thanks so much! ...haha! Tell that to my boss!
This video is awesome. So fresh compared to regular music theory seen on UA-cam. Love that has a practical side and I can explore that on the piano.
Do you have any tips or will you upload videos with exercises or suggestions so we can have more composition tools like this?
Hey elton, thx for so much appreciation! :D I will definetely do sth. more especially on the rule of the octave.
Would you say that you're like interested in romantic/classical stuff as well? I'm asking that because I got the impression that most people somehow are just interested in baroque tutorials - I mean that's ok but I'd like to do the other stuff as well, let's say for my own tast it could be a little more on the romantic side :DD
@@en-blanc-et-noir I'm super interested in classical and romantic as well. I love Schubert quartets/ songs, Puccini arias etc
If you are more inclined to the romantic go for it. Since you are more interested in that era you probably spent more time research and have more knowledge to share of those subjects. So it's a win win for the viewers and yourself
@@en-blanc-et-noir Nein! Nicht nur Barock (Bach-Rock 😇). Ich bin mir sicher, daß die Klassiker und Romantiker ähnlich gedacht haben. Da hat bestimmt keiner gedacht: "jetzt gehe ich mal zum Doppelsubdominantgegenklang" oder ähnlichen Hochschulirrsinn.
Every time I watch your video I get urge to practice and practice. Thank you, truly inspirational channel!
Thanks so much! I'm glad when people can pull something for themselves out of it!
This channel is a gem, thank you Reddit. i think i'll binge all your content
Dein letztes Versprechen stimmt mich sehr hoffnungsvoll. Erst seit ich die Oktavregel nach Dandrieux geübt habe, wird mir so vieles aus der klassischen Musik klar. Man spart sich so viel Denkarbeit, wenn man nicht alles in "Harmonielehre" (Terzschichtungen, Grundtonbewegung) umdenken muss.
Thanks for making this video about my favorite composer !
Thanks! There‘s gonna be a big one on improvising Chopin style waltzes within the next couple of weeks
@@en-blanc-et-noir I can’t wait! I love Chopin’s waltzes!
You have an intellectual clarity mixed with humour which is very nice. Leaves the watcher with a lot of food of thought. Thumbs up! (Btw as a Swede the German accent makes all difference =) ) ps. very well researched, another thumbs up! ds.
What a kind comment! I feel flattered, thanks so much… German accent? I dunno what youre talking about… LOL just kidding. I just cant do any better and I recieve a verbal beating on that by friends and family on a regular basis😂
Putting Obama in the video made be a bit sick. I guess Obama was meant to be an example of a false cadence.
Kellner! Holy shit I just learned one of his pieces.
Very good thanks may God bless this idea
Thanks for passing by, Eydi! Yeah, you're right! I think I've seen kind of a similar formulation ("god bless this idea") in one of the original sources on the rule of the octave :DDD, no joke!
Outstanding ! ^_^
Thank you, Thomas! I'm happy if it appeals to people!
I can't express enough how much I love this video! I'd love to see more videos regarding the rule of the octave, especially in romanticism. Truly mesmerizing, I love your videos!
Thanks, man
An exquisitely lucid video. Sometimes one does feel that while the "modern" theories of harmony and counterpoint accomodate a wide variety of phenomena, they are rather removed from the dynamism of musical practice and stylistic idioms. To put it simply, in an attempt to teach the most general idioms, they often fail to teach anything at all. Pedagogical techniques and rules of thumb originating from the contemporaneous and living music scene may not have the rigorous definitions and fancy terms, and may only apply to a certain style, but they are hugely beneficial to composers of that associated style. In other words, at least when composition is concerned, practicality is prioritised over theoretical rigour.
This is of course not to suggest that composers merely permute and arrange a set of idioms they have learnt: artists do not follow rules, they play with rules. The example of the detour to Ab major at 7:17 demonstrates this rather nicely (I would not be surprised if someone were to tell me it comes directly from Schumann or Schubert!).
Thx, Junwu! I appreciate your comment and you're probably right. I'd put it like that: if modern theory teaches principles, period figured bass pedagogy teaches examples. I wouldn't say modern theory fails, but it probably is focussing to much on the systematical aspects and too less on the question of "how it's put together?". I don't wanna be part of the lately established modern theory/Roman numerals bashing as there are historical reasons why systematical music theory emerged and what reasons led to the aim to give it a more rational shape.
Best of both worlds I'd say...
This is excellent content! The music starting at 7:17 is just amazing. Where can I find the score to it?
Thanks man! Well, I'm afraid there is no score it's improvised. But great that you like it :DD
I love your content and humorous presentation. If you are thinking of joining Patreon as a creator, I will support you! I wish my music theory professors from the 1970's could have given me even a 10th of what you offer us. I learned very little counterpoint and harmony and would love to understand more.
Hey Angela, thanks so much!
Yeah I'm already concidering that. I'm actually searching for a good solution to publish more PDFs to support the videos. I'm not sure if patreon is a proper fit for me as I'm not able to create more video content then I'm doing already... (as Patreon - at least seems to me - is a page where you put on additional video stuff... right?
70's ha! yeah I know! But I noticed that there actually WAS good stuff already... 2 years ago I stumbled upon Felix Salzer's "Counterpoint in Composition" and he actually is doing already pretty much of what "historical informed theory" would claim as their achievement.
@@en-blanc-et-noir I support a few people on Patreon and not all provide videos. One of them is the conductor Joshua Weilerstein who creates the free podcast "Sticky Notes". He has hundreds of followers on Patreon and gives us transcripts of his podcasts and video links to various performances related to his current interest. These are not videos he has made, he just finds them and shares them. Recently, he held a UA-cam live show on Brahms first symphony only for his patrons so that we could ask questions that he answered in real time. But this UA-cam live format he does not do often.
I would love some PDFs that break things down and give me something to work on.
Шопен -- тот, благодаря которому начался мой путь в музыке.
Никто, кроме тебя, так хорошо его не разбирал на составляющие. Браво!
🙏
I've got a lot to learn since I'm not smarter than an Italian 6 year old orphan.
But I was born with two left ears and just started piano at 65 yoa, and have learned the Rule of the Octave this week.
Tolles Video, vielen Dank fur den "Produktionsaufwand". Ich finde besonders die historische Einordnung (z. B. dass Chopin sie ausgiebig rauf und runter laiern musste [vermutlich]) fur mich als Laien hilfreich. Ansonsten erscheinen Dinge wie die Oktavregel wie vom Himmel gefallen. Aus dem Video hier kann ich fur mich z. B. schon ableiten in welche Richtung meine naechsten Ubungen gehen (ich spendiere ca. 1-1.5 Stunden pro Werktag dafur, bin beruflich Informatiker xD )
Moin, immer gerne... der Produktionsaufwand kann ruhig ohne Anführungszeichen haha, man muss sich schon paar Stunden mal auf den Hintern setzen.
Oktavregel: du kannst davon ausgehen, dass er dieses Konzept - in welcher genauen Darreichungsform auch immer - mit Sicherheit gelernt hat. Es sieht alles danach aus, dass Chopin's Ausbildung noch ziemlich straight an der Komponistenausbildung des 18. Jahrhunderts orientiert war. Dafür sprechen viele Indizien...
"Die" Oktavregel kann man schon mal lernen und transponieren. Als ich sie das erste Mal gesehen habe, hab ich gesagt "kenn ich" - ich hatte damals schon länger Continuo-Unterricht und da hat man die geläufigsten Prgressionen der Regola irgendwann einfach automatisch drin. Der Begriff "Regel" ist, wie ich schon im Video angedeutet habe aber bereits irreführend weil die Regola eigentlich ein ganzes Kontingent an Akkorden, Akkordvarianten und Stimmführungen lehrt. Ich mache da sicher irgendwann mal ein Video dazu - dann sicher aber kontrovers weil ich der englischsprachigen Community gelegentlich gerne mal versuche das Eisen zu verbiegen...
Congrats.
Zajebiste !
Mind blown
The modulation using dim7th triads is similar to the conceppts of Barry Harris
Sure, all the great masters are going to be based on the same fundamentals.
1:46 6:47
👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽
1:42 Wouldn't you say that the 8-bar bass line chord sequence is V I V I IV I V I or V I V I II I V I ?
Your approach to this rule avoids parallel fifths between chords 6 and 7, as you change position. I wonder why the Neapolitan masters forgave this error, despite being so strict with voice leading rules? If the point is having the links “in your fingers”, why having parallel fifths ingrained your subconscious? I’m saying because from what I’ve read, it is commonly accepted.
Very interesting video!
There are historical examples of rule of the octave that suggest to adjust the position to create an idiomatic voiceleading... What do you mean by "error"? There is several examples in standard progressions where parallel fiths are kinda tolerated: e.g. RO-bassline 2-3 with the 2nd inversion dominant 7th going to the 6th chord on the 3 (Good original example: theme of Mozart's A major sonata bar 17).
@@en-blanc-et-noir Thanks for replying, and yes, sorry for the confusion! I was saying that your approach in the video precisely avoids the error in voice leading, not causing any.
What I was referring to are the parallel fifths between the chords 6 and 7 of the widely accepted model of the rule. The chords in C major “A-F(doubled)-C” and “B-F-G-D”. The parallel fifths occur between the soprano and the alto, which is why I suspect it doesn’t sound too harsh. But still the chords remain written as that, letting the performer memorize that voice leading in all 24 keys, which still strikes me.
The parallel fifths that you give as an example are indeed permitted, but because the first fifth is a diminished one. The fifths I was referring to, are both perfect. I might be wrong, but I really do want to understand the issue!
Can't find the paper you cite by budday (2002), could you point me to where to find it? looks interesting.
Not a paper but rather a huge book:
www.amazon.de/Harmonielehre-Wiener-Klassik-Wolfgang-Budday/dp/3000089985
5 years BEFORE Gjerdingen's Music in the Galant Style Budday comes up with a thorough, historically informed theory of classical tonality based on the Rule of the Octave... JUST SAYIN!
Please anyone provide me with the name of the peice in the intro part . Thank you in advance.
Chopin Etude in E flat, Op. 10, No. 11
@@en-blanc-et-noir Thank you bro and Love your work bro.
1:45
0:08 What is the piece showed here please?
Lord! It's the c# minor prelude op. 45 - legendary piece! (pulled off modulations)
@@en-blanc-et-noir Oh thank you!
Top notch. Are you German? Your German pronunciation was too perfect :-) Your video just makes even clearer how important craftsmanship and knowledge help with traditional styles.
lol yes, I‘m a bloody German😂
I‘m really happy about this comment, because as far as I can see mainstream culture in classical music is still advertising and worshipping the genius cult, abandoning the share of what actually is learnable and can be taught. The Alma Deutscher Hype is a very good example, as well as the channel ‚tone base piano‘ in general.
With this being said I don‘t wanna deny that talent plays a role and extreme singular talent at the highest degrees doesn‘t exist - I know very well that a good craftsman still doesn‘t make an inspiring musician. BUT without the craft many talented people struggle to express their creativity properly and fail to shape their ideas into a proper form.
@@en-blanc-et-noir thanks
Ngl I thought it said “the same bass line in Twice” (the kpop group) 🤣
And now you're disappointed :DDD
@@en-blanc-et-noir believe it or not
I like both classical music and twice :D
well, I listen to all kinds Punkrock since my teens and have a fancy for lofi hip hop
the only "flaw" in these videos is that you don't explain what you could call "numbers". Chords, grades or whatever, you assume that everyone's watching perfectly knows them. So it can not be a video for newbies.
I've always like to improvise and compose, but everything by ear; it's not easy at all recognize every time what your'e talking about. I know how to chain notes and chods, but it's a totally different thing knowing it by "numbers". Take for ex: 1:40
you have Em, you have V-I, you hae D#, you have 6/5, you have 7. If i take some minutes I can recognize the pattern more or less, but it's hella hard. Or take the 3rd bar: I understand it's a B major, and it "can be" a B + 7th, to resolve into Em... but for sure seeing it as 2 4 3 it can be puzzling... nonetheless, interesting videos
It's not like that I'm "arrogantly" assuming that everybody is familiar with this terminolgy or this kind of nomenclature. Basically I'd say it is pretty intuitive: a circled number shows a scale degree of the local scale, the other numbers indicate the chord above this. Yeah, you have a V-I when you have a 6/5 on the 7 and this goes for all the other dominant 7th inversions, so the goal is to relate the bassmotions directly with the chords that are most likely above it. The most basic concept of this is the so called "rule of the octave": web.archive.org/web/20160325120320/faculty-web.at.northwestern.edu/music/gjerdingen/partimenti/aboutParti/ruleOfTheOctave.htm
It is basically a figured bass approach (+ scale degrees) that was the common standard in middle Europe around 1800. It seems hard at the beginning - especially when you're used to common functional approaches - but it is learnable. I learned it as well as a grown up although I was trained with common textbook functional theories prior. It is just a matter of training. Although this "historical" apporach seems less systematic or unpractical at the beginning it is by all means more efficient, more intuitve and in comparison to the common textbook-approach provides a horizontal and thus contrapuntal perspective on harmonic progressions in general.
Check this one, it's the most thorough compendium explaining this approach:
derekremes.com/wp-content/uploads/compendium_english.pdf