The Joe Henderson Controversy - The Michael Brecker Podcast
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- Опубліковано 30 гру 2021
- In Chapter 9 of the Michael Brecker Podcast, Bill Milkowski discusses the Joe Henderson Controversy. Music: Herbie Hancock Quartet, Jazz Gipfel, 1988, Air Dancing (Hancock). Herbie Hancock, piano; Michael Brecker, tenor saxophone; Buster Williams, bass and Al Foster, drums.
Homestretch (Henderson), Aurex Jazz Festival, Japan, September 7. 1980 with Freddie Hubbard, Randy Brecker, trumpets; Michael Brecker, Joe Henderson, Joe Farrell, tenor saxophones; Robben Ford, guitar; George Duke, piano; Alphonso Johnson, bass; Peter Erskine on drums.
When I was about 16 my dad took me to a Drummer in Minneapolis to show me off thinking I was bad ass. I didn’t play anything and didn’t know jack. This drummer hands me a record, inner urge and says you gotta listen to this. He loaned it to me and it blew my mind.
‘65 Night and day was a life-changing event
Does Brecker have a "Recorda Me" on "Page One"??
Love Henderson. My number one tenor player of all time. Unmistakable tone, and fantastic solos on what ever he played. I don't know his situation way back and maybe he had every right to be slightly upset he wasn't getting the recognition he deserved.
Few people get the recognition they deserve.
I recently played "Page One" for a brilliant jazz-player friend who somehow wasn't familiar. Completely blown away by Joe's original virtuosity from "day one!"
In most domains , the cream does not rise to the top.
I had the pleasure to spend some time with Joe at the 97 Toronto Downtown Jazz Festival. He had traffic stopped including the Streetcars, windows rolled down … people astounded at his language on his Sax ! After the show I was asked to visit Joe in back of the Van he was being driven around in !
That was the day I received an education in Jazz ! and making a new friend!! There is not a Day that goes by , that I think about Joe… honestly!!!
I was there with Joe on that date!
Rich I was on the road with Joe in Toronto - we were close friends and did several tours together. I was with him when he had his stroke in Seattle, 1998 and on his final date in San Francisco at Stern’s Grove a few days later.
I completely agree with Joe, that he should get more juice in the pantheon. Colossally massive and deep jazz musician. Hell, even I don't listen to him like I ought to, even though I feel this way. It's something I'll try to fix in the new year.
Yeah, straight up! I've been listening to him a little bit, here and there for years, but for some reason this past Summer I got absolutely addicted to a couple of his albums, and have bought several more since then. One of the baddest brothers to ever come out of Detroit, and we've had more than a few...
Bret this is amazing. FANTASTIC!! Every one of my favourite musicians on top form. Happy New Year to you, and your digging into these brilliant players' interactions and personal histories is absolutely fascinating!! 👍
Great video, Bret!!!! Steve Grossman was such a killer player. Some of the early Mike playing reflects some of that kind of vibe. Like the record with Al Foster. Wishing you a safe and healthy New Year, Bret! shawn j
Strangely, this clip is pitched down a half step as well as many others Brett has been posting. So fresh to hear the clips ive listened to many many times with a new twist! Thanks for the video series Brett.
That was totally messing with my head 😂
A great commentary...I really enjoy listening to the back story...I remember that my first listen to Joe Henderson was El Barrio 1984 ( don't ask why) my William B Williams Make Believe Ballroom days my have interrupted my music palet, but it was on the Inner Urge album....among my favorites is the Porgy & Bess album...started listening to the Brecker Brothers much earlier way before I'd ever heard of Joe Henderson. Sophomore in high school we started with the jazz fusion bands of the times such as The Mahavishnu Orchestra, Miles Davis, Sun Ra, Billy Cobham & Brecker Brothers-Some Skunk Funk 1975J
El Bario is a MONSTER! great choice 👍
I've read a lot about the Henderson/Brecker controversy and am a big fan of both musicians, but I never really got it until I heard Joe's first few choruses of the blues. It contained so many of what I would have otherwise identified as "Breckerisms" that I was truly stunned. This doesn't really change my opinion of either musician at this point, but definitely gives me an understanding of how deep Joe's influence was on Michael. One more point - as others mentioned, the practice of sitting down and learning a solo note-for-note from a record is a common practice among jazz students trying to develop a vocabulary of jazz phrases and understand the theory of improvisation. It's not considered plagiarism.
Exactly.
It is if it is replicated note for note on another recording or gig.
@@arrjee9474 But that's what the steel drum player did on Jaco's gig on Gsteps and it sounded great. Was that all right just because he wasn't a tenor player.
Did Brecker have a "Recorda Me" on Page One"
I've been a champion of Henderson since I was a jazz DJ. Some of his more out playing is probably too chaotic for most people, but he had a wonderful imagination and impeccable tone. In his later years, the soft, breathy tone he achieved (on "Beatrice," say) was fantastic
.
Which recordings of his would you recommend to someone who LOVES out stuff?
@@sinane.y Try the LP Power to the People. Several live recordings feature "out" material by him. He's not out there with later Trane or Ornette. ua-cam.com/video/_AAfyd5OOP0/v-deo.html&start_radio=1&rv=_AAfyd5OOP0&t=153
As soon as Joe starts playing, that deep, grating tone is UNMISTAKABLY his. I'd have recognised that it's him even if I'd been blindfolded and totally unprepared for the question!!
I recall Joe Henderson saying the same about Hadley Caliman. Hadley even replied on a forum about it...
Hadley was older than Joe and a Dexter Gordon protege'....
Awesome performance! Alphonso on bass and George Duke comping and soloing with some bad cats ! I can hear Joe's influence in Mike and Joe Farrell who were my favorites when I started listening to Jazz. Mike and Randy played on many records I bought then also. The 70s had great jazz so did the 60s. The 80s coming in had shit like this in Japan ? I went to concerts in the 80s and 90s when I could actually afford to. RIP to both Joes and Mike, glad they were here to bless us!
I distinctly remember one of those articles, I think it was in Downbeat. I remember because my father in law, (𝙖 𝙧𝙚𝙣𝙤𝙬𝙣𝙚𝙙 𝙟𝙖𝙯𝙯 𝙞𝙘𝙤𝙣 𝙬𝙝𝙤 𝙨𝙝𝙖𝙡𝙡 𝙧𝙚𝙢𝙖𝙞𝙣 𝙖𝙣𝙤𝙣𝙮𝙢𝙤𝙪𝙨), was too happy to show it to me because he knew I was a Michael Brecker fan. Henderson said, in the interview, that he was kicking back in a hotel in Zurich, listening to the radio when Claus Ogerman came on featuring Brecker. He said suddenly he heard Brecker play note for note a passage that he could tell you the time and place when he had worked that stuff out himself, (𝙥𝙖𝙧𝙖𝙥𝙝𝙧𝙖𝙨𝙚𝙙 𝙖 𝙡𝙞𝙩𝙩𝙡𝙚). He also said, he understood that we all are influenced by our predecessors, but he was quite perturbed that he was copied so precisely. The sentiment was, (𝙖𝙨 𝙚𝙭𝙥𝙡𝙖𝙞𝙣𝙚𝙙 𝙗𝙮 𝙢𝙮 𝙛𝙖𝙩𝙝𝙚𝙧 𝙞𝙣 𝙡𝙖𝙬), these young white musicians would come along and become stars while copying their musical ideas while they, (𝙩𝙝𝙚 𝙘𝙧𝙚𝙖𝙩𝙤𝙧𝙨), never received nearly the recognition. I do recall, before that time after a session, mentioning to John Scofield, that Mike sounded like Joe and Randy sounded like Woody Shaw. He got excited and exclaimed, that’s right! He remembered Mike & Randy sitting by the record player copying those two artists style and phrases. So there was some truth to it, but Mike eventually carved his own path and went beyond those early influences. It was an unfortunate misunderstanding.
I remember that very same article! It was early 1990s
Well said Art. The truth can sometimes hurt. Sometimes it is a white/black thing. I made some comments above but didnt want to bring in the race thing...i would rather listen to woody shaw than randy brecker...and joe rather than michael. Michael and Randy are fine musicians. To each his own with no hate!
If you're speaking the truth man this is very deep with you just told us. Hearken to the idea of Miles Davis: 'use your own creativity'.
If your father-in-law is so renowned, that means he already is NOT anonymous by definition. You certainly wouldn’t be “exposing” him by mentioning his name in an obscure comment section. Calling bs
He did!
Ah yes! All great players, unfortunate mojo but they all got their due! Thanks for another great vid! All the best to you in the new year!
Every jazz musician has a musical mama and papa, even Joe. The thing about Mike is that he had good business sense and a talented brother for support. Plus, he was accessible to his fans. PLUS, he came along when Jazz/Rock Fusion was in its infancy and became one of the truest voices of an idiom which was very popular with the saxophonists of my generation.
In jazz, greatness does not always equal $$$. Otherwise, Bird would have died a wealthy man.
It's really interesting listening to various interpretations of artistic evolution based on hearing players who have obtained certain levels of popular notoriety. All of these players have distinctive styles, however I would venture to say their paths to developing those styles are vastly different. I don't hear Joe Henderson's style being a primary influence on Michael Brecker's playing, although I'm sure it probably was. Eventually, everyone becomes who they are!
Big fan of both of these players, and heard this topic alluded to once but always wanted to know more - thanks for enlightening. Others are rightly mentioning that Joe Farrell also never properly got his due, I also think about the great artist Jim Pepper - I’ve heard him credited as a big influence on Michael Brecker, but wondering if you dove into Pepper’s influence at all during this discussion
Joe Farrel spent much of his career as a highly sought after session player.
Great video. And then there's Freddie Hubbard! Happy new year Brett, thanks for all the videos. All the best, Richard
Happy new year!
After a gig in San Diego early 90s around that time I told Joe some gigs are going to younger players that he deserves. He then talked about how he didn't like that Mike recorded him at Breckers Bros club and added that Mike memorized 8 bars of one of Joe's solos and played it as part of a full solo in Europe.
Brecker hold Alvin Queen that he wished he was born Black!
What was the controversy? I'm late to the podcast and need to be caught up.
Interesting controversy. Cool concert footage in Japan when Joe and Mike were playing together. It seems to show that Joe Henderson had the place of honor at that gig and Mike was still a young gun on his way to establish himself. Both are among the greatest of all time!
I am extremely surprised that when so many people mention influences of Michael Brecker, they quite often neglect the huge Pollenization of Jim Pepper. When I listen to Jim Pepper that is like the missing Link. That’s 80% of Breckers tone right there, few cats mention that often unsung hero.
Great content by the way, just making my little point. 😊
Love this.
First Im hearing of Jim Pepper. Ty
No one anywhere could have accused Jim Pepper or Dewey Redman of copping their stuff from another player. Completely unique personalities on their horn. Just as valuable although neither was as technically scary as Henderson or Brecker. The same thing could have been said about the Tenors Clifford Jordan, Booker Ervin and Rahsaan Roland Kirk of the preceding generation.
I saw a video on UA-cam. It was Robin Ford George Duke, Michael Brecker in Joe Henderson, Freddie Hubbard, Randy Broker, etc. so they obviously played together at some point.
The composition the group played was Homestretch written Joe Henderson - Not Homestretch Blues as labelled here.
Thanks, will fix.
Alphonso Jhonson played with Philly's R&B Frank Bey when he was very young.I had the pleasure to play on that band years later.
I'm surprised by Joe's feelings because he and Coltrane are my favorite sax players and no one comes close to those two in my mind. Even Wayne Shorter, to me, can't hold a candle to Henderson.
Where does Roland Kirk fit in? Trane, Joe, Kirk, Bird and Rollins are my top 5.
I was lucky to see him once, in SF, on Broadway, with Joanne Brackeen on piano. She had an afro. It was mid 70s i think. Saw Joanne at the San Jose Jazz festival on the 90s. Couldnt recognize her, she looked totally different. I love Joe, especially with Horace Silver. La Mesha, my favorite tune.
Do you remember the San Jose Jazz club, opened about 1979, maybe 1980. Joe Henderson was the very first performer there. It was at the old San Jose Hotel, they finally had to close the club due to seismic concerns and the owner of the jazz club was paid quite a bit for being evicted, I'm glad he did since he put his life savings into it.
I pity any of them that had to follow Joe’s solo on that Blues. Pure Genius.
Joe was.....Joe.
Controversy (?) Maybe 🤔 I missed your introduction and it was explained , but I'm Sure Aware of the FACT that Kenny Dorham HIMSELF recommended Joe , I meant , MR. Henderson 👍🏾 and the Rest is Just Like History Ought to Be, There for Our Listening 👂🏾 and Learning Pleasure 🥰🎶🎷🥁👆🏾
Do you know why his album’s “Pilgrimage” and “Two Blocks From The Edge” have been removed from streaming and online music stores? It is virtually impossible for me to find these albums now.
Sonny Rollins once told me that there is only one business worse than the boxing business and that’s the music business.
Thanks to ALL of YOU ❤
So what exactly did Henderson say about Brecker?
Basically that he got famous off of Joe’s style.
The original transcript would clear alot up
I went to 7th Ave South to see Joe in the late 80s. Joe didn't show but I specifically remember Steve Grossman, Dave Leibman, and Michael Brecker, sitting together next to the stage.
Wow
Happy new year! Many a great tenor player mentioned, but Joe Henderson was THE MAN!
Lester Young was The Man. Both Brecker and Henderson would admit it.
12:30 Joe Farrel !!! For me way ahead of Michael.A totally underrated genious
Totally agree. If anyone has a bone to pick about being unrecognized it's Joe Farrell who says more in a few notes than Michael does in five-hundred. I love Michael, but he's no Joe Farrell. He even gives Henderson props with a well-known paraphrase t 12:30. Very respectful, and very hip. I'm sure Henderson appreciated it.
All of those guys are great in their own right,I love to hear them all play,don't forget John Klemmer. Joe Henderson ,page one album
Could that be Jerry Dodgion without a shirt behind Farrell at 13:13?
You are doing something right if you get under a old dudes skin, it`s actually a compliment. If they didn`t like you they wouldn`t even hear what you are doing. Old Black man wisdom and logic is a beat down LOL
I think Keith Richards has done that alot in the press. I always thought it was for that reason("oh he actually noticed me").
Goodness. I started getting into jazz in 1990 when Jazz FM first came on air in London. Never heard about this controversy. Although the days before the internet so maybe that's why. Never even thought about Brecker sounding like Henderson or copying his licks.
As great technician of the tenor as Brecker was, I've never once in my life thought "You know what would be perfect right now? Some Mike Brecker!" But I have thought that about Joe Henderson many times. Brecker in my obviously subjective opinion, never had the humanity or humor of Joe or Rollins or Trane. Brecker was strictly chops to me and that is impressive but not necessarily art.
More than chops, with Michael there's some absolutely great harmonic stuff there. I think his tone is his worst attribute actually, although I tend to like it anyway.
Joe had his own voice on tenor, so as Buster Williams. I love them
Have you listened carefully to the late Don Byas? IMHO, Joe Henderson really digested a whole lot from Byas.
Agreed a little but the two tenor players I can think of who come directly from Byas are Lucky Thompson and Benny Golson. Joe comes from Bird, Sonny, Trane and Getz which few people except Joe himself mention!
As always: Milkowski is REAL. A journalist that musicians respect. That is a nice all star jam session video u got there sir. Great to see all these great cats on the same stage..I love Brecker and he was probably the best all around jazz saxophonist that could sound good on any pop album while still playing some heavy sax. Re Joe, EVERYBODY, including Mike, were always regarded him as a “source”. A source is like God, or Mother Nature if you will. It is a whole another level for me of placement in the jazz lineage. But I guess Mother Nature, just like every human being, can get angry, jealous or whatever. Which proves that Joe was a human after all. Mike, just as GrossMan, Liebman, Mintzer, Berg, Labarbara or whoever, worshipped Joe since day one they have heard his music I’m sure. But, yea, when it comes to jazz business, I guess Justice has something to do with it, but it’s just part of the story..
I could be wrong, but I don't think Joe ever sent any checks to Junior Cook, who he definitely descended from musically. I studied with Grossman a bit, and his opinion was that Joe sounds like (and I quote) "a modern Junior Cook".
So we all take from others, and when your disciple becomes more well known than you, there's bound to be some friction.
I'd say that especially early Mike Brecker flowed from Joe Henderson and others, but he found his own way.
well said, Ned
It is a little strange that so many people are talking about 'who stole from who?' since every jazz player is influenced by everybody they hear. Every single player is influenced by the masters Every sax player alive tries to play like Trane, if they can't, they go into smooth jazz. Once a player plays a note in public, it is public domain for any other player to use.
Seems so sad and silly, a fake controversy. Both Joe and Mike were true geniuses who changed the way the saxophone was played and each influenced countless others. News flash: Everyone from Charlie Parker to Kenny Kirkland to Chick Corea to George Benson "borrowed" liberally from others as they developed their style. It's part of how people become innovators. Most imitate, assimilate then innovate. Both Mike and Joe invented their own unique style, No doubt there is a LITTLE Joe Hen in brecker but not much. It does not take great ears to hear that Coltrane was far and away the biggest influence on Brecker, as he was on Berg, Liebman, Grossman etc...something they admitted freely and often. Joe was a true innovator as was Mike, but FAR more saxophonists imitated or emulated Mike than did Joe. and still do, just a fact to anyone with ears to hear. As Mingus might have said, if Mike Brecker were a gunslinger, there would be a whole lot of dead copycats. I love them both, have listened heavily to and been influenced by both, but it was really unfortunate that Joe chose to go after Mike, when Joe's playing was not an obvious major influence, from tone to tonguing to rhythm to note choice. No point in going into detail but they are vastly different players in so many ways. And I am very sad that Joe did not get more credit or recognition until late in life with the Verve records, but the truth also is that Joe engaged in some very self-destructive behavior and habits so he was partly the architect of his own career difficulties in the 1970s, early 80s. (Those who knew him know what I am saying is true) That said, was so glad to get to hear him at the Vanguard when he recorded state of the tenor, some of the most original and beautiful sax playing I have ever heard live, and his Verve work, such as Lush life, the Miles CD, Double rainbow and the big band Cd are as good as it gets, not to mention Inner Urge, In and Out, Short Story, etc...I am thankful two such great and original artists lived on this planet during my lifetime and I got to hear them both.
The only problem here is not the fact that Brecker was somewhat influenced by Joe Henderson, it’s the fact that it took him so long to publicly acknowledge Joe’s influence amongst all his other influences. There are several instances of Brecker speaking about his influences and he rarely mentioned Joe’s name among many other saxophonists that he would mention. That’s the problem, not that he was in fact influenced by Joe, just acknowledge it right along with everyone else you might have taken certain musical ideas or elements from. I believe this is what upset Joe and it’s understandable, especially when you clearly hear the guy playing things that were harmonic ideas you played before him!
I would be interested to hear you elaborate on Joes negative habits. I've read a good amount about him over the years, but cant remember any reference to drugs, for example, other then some reference to LSD.
@@vbassone Well that's an interesting take. But do you imagine for a moment that Michael Brecker would have deliberately set out to omit all mention of Joe Henderson as some sort of strategy? Much more likely that you have many influences and just may not remember the name of all of them in a given moment. (Just like me when I'm accepting my Grammies and Oscars! :)
@@johntobin9404 Yes John, that's actually what I meant to say. I believe that Michael Brecker simply FORGOT to mention Joe as an influence. Of course I didn't mean it was a conscious effort to omit Joe from his list of influences. However, after forgetting many many times to mention Joe when Brecker was asked who his influences were, I could understand Joe being a little perturbed when you hear another guy playing harmonic ideas that you know are yours! No it wasn't intentional on Brecker's part of course, yes Joe Henderson's name should have been mentioned by him any time he was asked about his influences. Ok?
@@jonathanosborn4800 Did you read my post?
Speaking of musicians not getting their due...Joe Farrell was a great tenor and flutist. I was saddened by listening to how Joe Henderson dissed Michael Brecker. What happened to Henderson in regards to the music business had nothing to do with other musicians like Michael Brecker. It's the promoters and the suits in the music business that where making those decisions about who to promote or not. I love Joe Henderson's playing and own more albums by Henderson or as a sideman than Michael Brecker's. Which is due to Henderson being on so many Blue Notes back in the day. I'm not going to fault Henderson for being bitter, it had to be hard being such a great player and not getting the attention he deserved. But wearing that chip on his shoulder for so many years must have hurt.
so true
It is not uncommon for artists to get recognition after they died, you can see this in many diverse forms of art.
My good friend Anders Tiedman used to manage Joe. I'm going to send this conversation to him and hear what he has to say on the subject.
Dude, you rule!
That should be interesting - if it's printable! :-)
Michael Brecker's first albums were Brecker Brothers fusion jazz-rock albums starting 1975.
"At the 1976 Grammy Awards the album received three nominations, for Best R&B Instrumental Performance ("Sneakin’ up Behind You"), Best New Artist and Best Instrumental Arrangement (Randy Brecker for "Some Skunk Funk").
So his fame begins with this crossover style and this song Some Skunk Funk was even played on mainstream radio
As a group member his jazz- rock career goes back even further in the band Dreams , starting in 1970.
So early on he was getting famous in the context of crossing over into a bigger market, this rock fusion element as well as funk and R & B elements, additional genres with bigger markets
To me his sound is more similar to Coltrane, louder and harder than Henderson who was known for playing at relatively low volume. Brecker was also more into technical display while Henderson was more intellectual in style, example in the video here he starts off with harmonics
Brecker was also doing a lot of sideman work on albums not jazz.
Later in the late 80s he starts doing some albums more pure jazz.
So his fame was probably enhanced by all this.
Jazz Video guy also has an interview posted with Joe, title is
Rare Conversation with John Scofield and Joe Henderson: 9/3/96
He mentions Brecker for a second (10:27) but not negatively
Another highly recommended on Jazz Video guy, Joe and with Freddie Hubbard
Joe Henderson Meets McCoy Tyner - A Match Made in Heaven
(Jazz Ost-West Festival in Nürnberg 1986, Germany)
Brecker does sound somewhat like this at times.
Other outstanding clips of this show also on youtube, including Inner Urge
Coltrane tends to play upper end more. Henderson lower
Brecker mainly lower but sometimes goes into upper registers
Well said.
It would be great to see you make a video about the medicine influence that Jim pepper had on Michael Breckers music. I did a small video on my channel. It’ll be great to hear a Tribute from such a great unsung hero.
Appreciate the suggestion! I will check out your video. Thanks.
Thanks!
Welcome!
First of all, my only contact with Joe Henderson was in the late 70s and early 80s. At the time he was not a nice guy at all! First time I met him was when a friend of mine was opening San Jose's first jazz club and he hired Joe Henderson as the opening act. My friend basically put his life savings into this. Opening night was a big event, I got there early to help out. The turnout was good even though many people came had no experience with jazz. Probably half the people came down from SF. Well guess who didn't show up? After about an hour Mike, the owner, started refunding money. Finally Joe walked in, didn't a word, sat down and demanded a drink and smoked for almost half an hour. He finally started playing about two hours after he was supposed to. During the same time period he pulled that kind of stuff at different clubs around the Bay Area and in many cases his brother would show up before he did! His brother was obviously covering for him. Then Joe went on a local college radio station accused the same people the he had screwed over with not hiring him because of "racism". He was even naming names! Now I knew his brother well, he is a great guy and he kind of alluded to Joe having some "problems" but as far Joe goes, the reason he had trouble getting gigs in the late 70s and early eighties was his own fault.
Oh wow. Man. I put these guys on a pedestal and forget they are humans.
Agreed. Joe was without doubt one of the all time greats, and I’m a HUGE Joe Henderson fan, but I also have heard similar stories from other musicians who knew him. They all had massive respect for him as a musician, but he did have foibles. as we all do.
I wonder if he took offense at having been appointed an opening act?
Wow! That’s awful that your friend had to deal with that kind of unprofessional behavior. I love Joe’s music and a lot of time some artists can be their own worst enemy. My dad has a friend who knew Lee Morgan. She thought he was a horrible person, but people deified him because of his talent, but since she dealt with him at the clubs, she had first hand experience.
@@ReIigionlsForIdiots No, it's not tragic and shameful. Joe was being honest about how he felt. Doesn't seem all that bad, the way Joe worded it, but I understand how Mike felt.
I love Joe and I love Michael. I didn't knew about the controversy. I see why Michael got a bit sad, cause it seems to me kind of an absurdity, every jazz player studies, absorb and, more or less evidently, "rips off" things of previous players, specially the ones he admires the most. Even Joe himself, so higly original, sometimes played Bird phrases. As Bird took things of Prez... Well, every human being can have a bad day on press.
Did you love Joe, or did you love his playing? I loved his playing, still do, did not like him as a person at all.
@@benvoiles3505 I have not met him in person, nor readen a lot about his life, It's said that he was a good teacher.
it`s understable thet he complained about being ignored, it looks like in several periods of his career efectively he was. But complaining abut Mike Brecker just makes no sense to me, in the other hand there is universal consensus that he was the most kind and humble person
@@PabloVestory I moved out of the Bay Area in 87 but even before that he seemed to disappear for awhile. I didn't hear anything about him after about 84, even though I heard he was showing up at some of his brother's shows and playing. I heard and I can't confirm this, that he had a substance abuse problem at that time. I know that is when cocaine was rampant, so if he did I hope he got into recovery. Way later, I heard he was "nice" guy. I love his playing to this day and I wonder how much his "behavior" interfered with his career? Now his brother is one of finest people I have ever met. Actually worked with him for awhile. I didn't meet Michael Brecker until much later, he was older than me. Same with Randy, but I was at the Times Square Hilton when Charlie Haden announced the deaths of both Michael and Alice Coltrane. Wasn't a dry eye in the house.
Joe has always been honest. He said he admired lee konitz and you can hear it in some of his phrasing.
Mike Brecker, Bill Evans and Kenny Garrett all mention Joe as one of the most important influences.
7:01 - and Bob Malach too?... not sure he is from The Tribe. Malach sounds like the Hebrew 'Melech';, or Malik in Arabic = King.
Good question. Not sure about Bobby Malach, who's a really great person and player.
I heard Joe Henderson had a Big Band on the 70's with Dorham and they say ita was even wilder than Lewis /Jones big band.They didn't recorded and some charts are around
Didn’t he use at least some of those charts for the Verve big band recording?
@@sonholee5769 yes
From what I heard Miles diss-ed Freddie Hubbard in a similar fashion. Creative personalities have their foibles and can be hurtful as anyone.
Freddie spoke about his relationship with Miles in the “Round Miles” documentary.
Miles got Freddie his Blue Note contract, Freddie explains. Miles used to say hurtful things about and to people, having a talent for sensing their vulnerabilities. Freddie probably ended up playing better after the initial hurt Miles caused him. Tough love on Miles' part.
I say kinda like Apples and Oranges, in the sense that I see it as two separate issues... Of course Joe is correct when upon being named player of the year in the 1990s he said 'could've/should've been a couple of decades earlier' - absolutely agree, no question, perhaps even earlier, since by the mid to late 1960 he was releasing great records and playing w/ his already formed original sound. Something else is the discussion of how much Brecker borrowed from Joe.
Having said that, Mike's borrowing from Joe has nothing to do w/ the long wait Joe had to -unfairly- endure till he was finally recognised as one of the innovative giants. Brecker had kinda made a point at the time, when he was featured w/ McCoy Tyner Trio on 'Infinity', in 1995, and people mentioned their version of 'Trane's 'Impressions', then and thereafter, Brecker often made a point of acknowledging the influences of Joe Henderson on his own playing, when some were mostly mentioning Coltrane as a main influence. @ 3:50 OK, that's the period, didn't know Joe had spoken out about Mike...
Sure after reading Michael's own acknowledgement , I did indeed start hearing it more and more the Joe influence in his playing, and sure there are many things here and there, but Mike's time feel, melodic patterns, solo construction strategies are essentially all his own, he took the Joe Henderson influences and moved it somewhere else, into his own sound ultimately speaking.
Also compositionally they are quite distinct, Mike also had an electric, Funk Fusion side that owes very little, if anything to Joe Henderson.
But to be fair, in his Straight Ahead playing/setting, one does indeed hear the influence, it might be some of those 'throwaway' looser ideas/ motifs and things at the end of phrases, or some of those overtone screeching-based moments, maybe a bit of the approach on Ballads and/or slower tempos...but MB distilled it into his own style IMHO. On a final note, now I gotta go back and start listening to both as much as I can and see if I change my perspective/mind.
Thanks for taking the time to write such an incisive response.
Randy Brecker sounds more like Freddie Hubbard than Mike sounds like Joe.
Seems like a jerk move and sour grapes to go public like that. TBH, Brecker created his own legacy and was incredibly gifted. I don’t hear any resemblance.
1. Both Mike Brecker and Joe Farrell died of MDS. 2. Was there any similar controversy as described herein between Randy Brecker and Freddie Hubbard? 3. George Duke was immediately recognizable during the first part of the first phrase of his solo here. 4. Most Jazz musicians toil in obscurity; the only question is the degree of same. 5. All Jazz musicians copy; most (especially young) Jazz musicians only copy, most young Jazz tenor saxophonists only copy Mike Brecker. Both Mike and Joe added to the lexicon and escaped the 2nd clause of #5's grip. Signed, unknown tenor saxophonist since 1973 on whom all of the above (among many others) are influences but none of which (nor anybody else) he copies.
I remember reading a (Jazz Times???) article of Freddie shortly before he died. I remember Freddie’s tone was pretty disgruntled. Not that he never got his due, but his frustration was that people had turned to a younger generation while he was still the greatest living trumpet player. I don’t think he named names, though.
@@brianearley1863 I had the great pleasure of meeting Freddie about half a dozen times. We share the same birthday (I'm 20 years younger). I even got to play music with him once! Before that, I sat with him and Detroit trumpet great Marcus Belgrave during a break at Freddie's show at the Ponchetrain Hotel. The talk turned to Wynton.... Freddie said: "Wynton can triple tongue way faster than I'll ever be able to ... (pregnant pause for effect...) ... but I can get down!"
@@JeffreySaxophoneTallNewton Jeffrey that is a great story! Man, I just love Freddie’s playing. He COULD get down with ONE note.
@@brianearley1863 Yes, he could!
So glad I missed this “controversy” back then. It would’ve been a drag to know that two of my most revered influences were not getting along. As much as I honor Joe, I think it’s utterly ridiculous to accuse Michael Brecker of “ripping off” Joe’s music. The Jazz tradition is ALL about stealing other’s ideas, incorporating them into your own vocabulary and creating something totally new which is EXACTLY what Brecker did. No one with any ears would ever say that Brecker ever played anything just like Joe. I’m guilty of it, but never Michael Brecker in performance.
It good you made this video! I agree that the real problem is that the real innovation of American culture are being sidelined and gentrified!…….being from New Orleans and also a saxophonist, I have seen a devastation of Nola !
Sadly, America is on the way down, a victim of greed and ignorance.
Happy new year! IF Joe isn't getting the kudos he's deserved and deserves its surely because he was too close in time to Coltrane and Rollins and that's who most of the jazz community reference rather than Brecker absorbing some of his work. Brecker was still coming up.
agreed....hard to come along in the shadow of Trane and Newk
@@JazzVideoGuy If this story is true, then perhaps the fact that Brecker can come along and be recognized over many great legends is what Joe was referring to? I don't think it was personal, today, we simply live in a world of hype and promotion!
I mean .. I get it right away , I think .
Joe Henderson played the sax like Mike B wished he could play🎷
Great story. Joe’s Power to the People version of “Black Narcissus” will always be one of my very favorite pieces. The race element of this story is so important, I think. If we step away from Jazz for a second and think of say, Chuck Berry and Elvis, it is clear this is a long standing cultural problem. A failure not of very talented white musicians, but of a culture who never adequately honored the black geniuses who came first.
No one here said Michael wasn’t talented or a truly great saxophonist. What comments were you reading?
@@vbassone No worries here Vincent, but thanks for having my back. I once saw Michael at Carnegie Hall with Charlie Haden. This will always be a cherished memory of mine. Michael was a special talent.
@@ReIigionlsForIdiots Christ man, what planet are you on?
The video posted of herbie, mike, Buster, et al was from 1988, possibly ‘98…. But I’m pretty sure it was ‘88. In 2001, they did Directions in Music and Mike was almost bald and Herbie shaved his mustache.
I think Michael was a product of his time. I saw him in 1992 with the Brecker Brothers playing jazz funk stuff with Chambers, Stern, Beard, James Genus. I saw him 2000 with Pat Metheny, Larry Goldings and Bill Stewart doing something completely different. I got into jazz at the right time. When these great musicians worked in lots of different settings. As far as I can tell, as the 1970s came in, the likes of Henderson were not prepared to move with the times and play different types of music. Take Donald Byrd who's a similar age to Joe Henderson.. He had the Blackbyrds and all those funky hits well into the 1980s.
Its all about adapting and perhaps some of the young masters from the 1960s didn't want to play fusion in the 1970s, or work with pop / folk musicians and branch out.
I have the Aurex Jazz festival All Stars on LP. Absolutely love the version of Joe Henderson's Homestretch here.
Joe Henderson played gigs with Blood Sweat & Tears in the 70ties and also hear his marvelous and super funky solo on “Wiggle Waggle” on Herbie’s album Fat Albert Rotunda album. Joe’s 70ties output definitely went toward fusion, check out the album Black Miracle for instance. But yes he didn’t have a hit record like Herbie’s Headhunters album in that style.
Damn, Alphonso Johnson's solo absolutely smoked!
Yes Sir , For me Alphonso ,stole the show
.If you want to walk about underrated. Alphonso has never been given the credit he deserves.
As For Joe Henderson , I was very fortunate to hear him play at Ronnie Scott’s in soho London back in the 1980’s .He played a 2 week stint at the joint, I went to hear him play 4 to 5 nights consecutively. Each time I would exit the club about 4 in the morning, with my mind totally blown ( I’m a piano player)
Joe Henderson, Fire ... Great tune ...
Great session(s). Too bad they could never iron things out...
maybe they did, who knows, they're not around to tell us
@@JazzVideoGuy , let's hope they did...
Everything is Derivative at this point and has been for quite some time!!
true dat
So Joe and Michael never reconciled?
someone posted recently that they did, but hard to confirm
Being a great musician doesn’t necessarily mean you’ll get the recognition as such. Bitterness is a disease that eats its carrier, very unhealthy, even when justified.
Yeah , Joe Henderson , he had a unique biting tone , a guy i played with in Chicago , Maulawi Nururdin , who has a book about him out now , comes as close .
I dont hear the Henderson tone in Brecker , so , interesting , for sure some of the outside forays and en harmonics sound like Henderson .
Funny about this thing Leibman started about " Jewish sax players on the new york scene " , and they include Bob Berg , rightfully so , who is half Jewish .
But never anyone includes Alex Foster , who is half Jewish , his mother , which means he is Jewish , and he plays as much sax as any of them , has a unique tone as anyone and played high leval gigs also .
I don’t know that I’d spend much time picking a specific attribute (i.e., race) to account for Joe’s career eluding the accolades it deserved--because of course that was a “part” of it. There are so many other things that come into play regarding celebrity…things like promotion/public relations, history (think the impact of “The Beatles” here), networking/connections, timing, and even just plain luck. During Joe’s remarkable career, we had a strong national mythology of meritocracy determining our success, and I don’t mean to sound overly skeptical here, but I think that may have driven some of Joe's discontent. Of course, being a fantastic player is requisite, but there are so many other contributing factors to attaining “stardom”.
If I was stranded on an island and could have only one CD to listen to for the rest of my time, it would be a Joe Henderson CD. My only problem is committing to which one it would be.
Joe had every right. But its a sign of genius to be deeply misunderstood.
true dat
I Love Joe Henderson, but to say Brecker ripped him off is ridiculous! You can hear hints and shades of Joe in his playing, but to say he outright ripped him off seems so far detached from reality! Imitation is the highest form of flattery they say, but I simply don't hear it to the degree it should have became an issue! Maybe Joe was just having a bad day when he made those comments??? Regardless I Love them and miss them both!
In the end, it's all talk. It's the music that matters.
Michael brecker was Benn webster on ballads.
Come on now.
Take al the threats before him, who could he he outplayed on ballads?
I have never heard a ballad he played which I had to play twice.
what do you mean had to play twice? Is it bad if you have to play the ballad twice?
The reality that is constant but rarely address , I think, is SYSTEMATIC RACISM
When we have those who may have been guided by the Classic Masters , but yet end up with far greater financially wealthy than even the Madtees they idolized .
It’s a classic Elvis Presley scenario.
The Song writers & performers of the music that made Elvis was influenced by that made him stand out ., and made him famous … and financially wealthy … Elvis was even called the ‘KING OF ROCK & ROLL’ .
A style of music that was common and originated from the background of artists like Little Richard … and many other obscure souls …
Look how Freddie Hubbard died …. almost unnoticed .. Yet he lit forth his life force energies and surpassed so many .
Yet his death was almost obscure , yet he was a MASTER
The truth still remains …. The System is till intact , though many individuals may
not malicious , but they benefit for a system that will not touch them because j they are not black
Racism is still intact like a Smart Bomb 💣 that has in its core an algorithm that still functions very affectively
Sure … many artist who love jazz are nit malicious … even though they benefit & are elevated by the algorithms of systematic racism
In just about any style of music … Black will still not be the ones who are the most financially wealthy
For example .. The ROLLING STONE can hire a bassist like Daryl Jones (spell check ) and pay him a while lot more money than he maybe he would make on his own name . He even gave up a festival that featured him as a main feature , because The Rolling Stones offers him millions $.
The Rolling Stones makes millions of dollars … Yet the descendant of artists they may have idolized are in obscurity and even unknown .
Mike Brecker should not have taken it personally . Joe Henderson was just addressing a system , not an individual
Joe did not attack Mike … he addressed the system and predicament
How many fans of Joe Henderson are there , in comparison to how many fans of Mike Brecker are there , in College’s that teach jazz ?
Yo find so many who wanna sound like Mike Brecker … You’ll find many even clones if Mike Brecker ..
But how many clones of Joe Henderson exists ? Though Joe maybe a major reason there even was a Mike Brecker in the music scene ?
And why was it that Joe wasn’t interviewing Mike Brecker instead ?
And why is it that You who put up this posting are not even relative to even any one from the background that Joe is from ?
Because , I dare to say , originators get paid by those who have mimicked them
Copiers pay the bills
Who owned Down Beat Magazine ?
Who owned VERCE RECORDS
WHO OWNED & Still owns all , or most of the archives of Jazz recordings and paraphernalia’s ?
One black man entries to own publishing of The Beatles … One black man ventured to buy NBC …. But look how they ended up
Was Bill Cosby the SINGLE BIG BAD WOLF of an entire era ?
(Though he was only a guest at the PlayBoy mansion …)
And who is the major audience of this posting ? Blacks ?
Jazz, Rock , Blues , Country Music …. Etc …. (Just to name a few sties ..)… these forms of music are so famous style of music appreciated all over the world … Beyond all kinds of cultures & ethnic groups.
But who makes the most money & fame & notariety from these styles of music ?
In just one generation more kids knew of Chris Botti more than they k RW about Miles Davis . … etc…
You guys may not be malicious … but you seemingly will always benefit more by a system that has it a algorithms still intact to make you rise above .
There is no equality till this day … even though the great majority of jazz lovers are not malicious …. But the system that is still intact is still malicious software .
Even so called ‘Black Music ‘ puts mire money with none black communities .
I mean … how many blacks can afford to study Jazz at Lincoln Centee with Wynton Marsalis ?
I mean … how many Blacks can even afford to go to NYU Jazz program ?
I mean .. even Miles Davis dropped out of Juilliard (before they would even have a progressive jazz program … if).
I mean to say I all … Mike should not have taken it personal , the way Joe Henderson felt , because what I think Joe was addressing s is far greater than Mike Brecker
And you compare the two human beings …. yet who is Moe widely known in the hearts & minds of young people today ?
So many wanna sound like Mike Brecker
But how many wanna sound like Charles Lloyd? (If they even know about him at all to begin with )?
Stan Getz is amazing, And I love him & his playing. But how many kids today know Joe Henderson rather than Stan Getz ?
I know what I am referring ri because I’m a dinosaur thet woke up out of hibernation and seated to get hip to r Inca like Instagram. And I noticed that there are many more Mike Brecker fans on Instagram than Joe Henderson fans .
Why is that ?
Everybody , or a great number knows the name John Coltrane.
But who makes the most many from that name ?
The law of inertia I a relay race that began long ago … hat is still taking loads fill this day …
And look who benefits the most , more frequently ?
I like Mike Brecker … I love Bob
Berg & Bob Mintzer
(Matter of fact BOB BERG was such a swell human being …. From the very first time we met he gave me his personal home number and invited me to gk fishing with him out in the Hamptons … and I was so very devastated and hurt the way that he passed away … I really loved that man’s character as a human being . He was a very tough but sensitive brother , and I will always appreciate the type of human being he was especially towards me .. what he meant to me personally . And I know that he would understand where I was coming from when I say what I say here, because I am not attacking him , nor Mike Brecker .. nor may other individuals who I love very dearly , who are not black.. )
I’m just simply addressing , I think , what I think Joe was addressing .
Hey… No one alive today is responsible for any of the slave ships that abducted blacks fri their homes and trafficked them to the shores that they did ..
But I’m hair saying that there is no algorithms developed as yet that even begin to equal out the okaying field … still to this day .
Algorithms are still intact that will it have at the finish line of benefits All Equally
No matter what … Greats like Freddie Hubbard wound have still died in obscurity (in comparison ) to others who may have been uplifted by their likes
It’s just a system set until motion
Who’s gonna own most of the magazines and publications & medias & institutions & even the ratings ? And ‘why come’ ?
Boots Strap can only be pulled up by those who can afford boots 🥾
Interesting, do you get paid by the word?
Bs.
Demons assume any characteristics at will! Confusion and cowardice coexist. Still the Pope bows to a Black baby Jesus and Brecker to not only Trane!
Elvis Presley, the Beatles, Chet (thanks to Miles)😲 Baker, the Dorsey Brothers,Phil Woods, Eric Clapton,Rollin Stones,Mick Jagger , the Osmonds,Janis Joplin, and others ,built their fame and success off Miles Davis,BBking, Chuck Berry, Santana, Art Balkey, Muddy Waters, Bird,Trane, Motown,Jimi Hendrix,Wes Montgomery, Etta James,Monk, the Jackson 5/MJ, Little Richard, Dizzy,Bud Powell,Ray Charles, just to name a few 🤗both Wnyton Marslis and Miles Davis often talk about the racism in Jazz 😎🙄, check out the movie Miles
@@ReIigionlsForIdiots Not that simple Dude. Go a bit deeper.
Sounds like real life stuff.
M Brecker is to Benny Goodman as J Henderson is to Lester Young. The 'cantorial' soul of the first 2 is fine, good. The 'blues' soul of the latter 2 means more. Apparently JH did exhibit personality problems which stymied him somewhat - no need to trot them out. He emerged alongside the rise of Ornette etc and was relatively conservative for his time, which didn't help his cause as to being a true 'pantheon' figure. He wasn't quite at the right place at the right time with the right thing, so, frustration.
It's Joe's music that's eternal.
Henderson and shorter all came from that trane influence, Brecker to me came Trane/ rock bag. Henderson and Brecker two different horns . 😊
13:34 -13:48 Did the cameraman have a foot fetish?
that's what I was thinking "come on show Robben Ford , he's soloing and you are filming feet"
air dancing great stuff
there you go
I so agree about Maestro Joe deserving much more recognition from "Page One" onward. Whenever I still hear Stan Getz playing on so many iconic Bossa Nova recordings I try and imagine Mr. Henderson; "if only he had been THAT go-to tenor-player" I say to myself, quickly muting Stan's reed-squeeky tired offerings.
C'mon, Stan was a giant too, and one of Joe's very favourite players. There's a Charlie Rose interview with Joe where he confirms this (if you can stomach the insufferable bore that Rose was/is)
@@johnvalentine3456 Thanks and happy new year John! Maybe Joe was just being polite in that interview? But I will give that a listen, after all if I can endure Mr. Getz’ reed-squeakin’ bossa solos that interviewer won’t be a problem.
@@ronrobbins2737 Rose asks Joe to list who he would pick if he could put together an all-star band, and Stan was one of his choices on tenor. Coltrane also listed Stan as a favourite in 1958. If you can't stomach Stan on bossa's , go back to his incredibly swinging and inventive bop playing (w/ Oscar Peterson, "I Want To Be Happy" for starters).
@@johnvalentine3456 I just checked out the 1960 live video from Germany featuring Stan and Coltrane on stage together. Even then Stan has that old-timey exaggerated vibrato, those puffy cheeks and the marginal reed-squeeking attack while his tenor sounds like someone stuffed old socks down its bell. Still a mystery to me, all his accolades but fun stuff nonetheless (thanks for being a good sport).
I like joe Henderson as much as the next guy, but he was very prone to squeaking and not being able to have notes speak.
Joe gigged with Horace
And recorded with Horace on several classic recordings.
Arguably Brecker was a better saxophone player just technically speaking. Henderson could be a little sloppy
Probably deliberate, to get that 'vulnverability' thing happening-a beautiful musical attribute that Joe had, which many lack.
In the final analysis, it's about sound and feeling, technique can be impressive, but it ia not the essence of creative music.
What a cult the jazz world is.
please explain
Should Joe have been so polite to not expressed such strong emotions at his age and achievements ?
Mike Brecker gave an interview that he should
Be very proud to have done so .
And should have published it in all it’s glory & grit … As a service to his hero Joe Henderson
So they didn’t like each other. That happens. Players are not peace gods.
I don't think that's ever mentioned here. I'll bet Joe did like Michael. And Michael most certainly revered Joe, or he wouldn't have felt hurt. Maybe he felt a bit guilty, even?
It's o.k.becuasr it's just apples and oranges.No problem.Just enjoy .
Oh what's this?
Tune in Friday morning and find out.
Another great video Bret 😁 Happy New Year🎶🇺🇸🇮🇱
The ‘Joe Henderson Controversy’ is only a reflection of a Controversy that exists way beyond just Joe Henderson
But those who know that personally very well .. won’t even make a posting about it .. but just give a seemingly vague reference to what they all know so well to not even spend energy to mention it and make a UA-cam posting about it 🙏🏽
Brother your commentary is well taken and you are repeating the same thing over and over ?