Terry at Falcon 4stroke here..good work on the project, do not be detracted by downer comments. Do not try to incorporate every suggestion from would-be buyers. Return-to-LZ reliability, heat control & manageable weight are the most important features, everything else is a bonus. EFI is fine but will not produce more power than a well tuned carb. EFI is reliable but when issues arise it will be frustrating and expensive to owners. I would prefer to see the familiar Walbro pumper matched to the motor. Baily's 4stroke entry to the US market was a disaster and spoiled the 4 stroke foot-launch trend for years. Study this and don't repeat:) I more thought..this is a process, maybe better to not share all prototype problems. This candor will be used against you by other marketers in the future. Quietly solve the problems and support the engine once it's introduced officially. Be truthful always with your buyers and you will do well.
Yes you are right. Carb at the beginning for sure... We do not mind sharing our path to make the engine market-ready. Roland from EOS agreed to play a fair and honest game and all the issues must be solved before selling to customers. We do not mind them knowing how much trouble it takes to tune an engine...
While it may not produce more power, this does have advantages in that the carb does not have to be manually adjusted when changing site elevation by doing it automatically. This will save maintenance and wear on the engine by avoiding running lean or rich and ruining the piston or wasting fuel operating in a choked condition in higher altitudes. Efi is not rocket science to troubleshoot and if readily available automobile or motorcycle components can be incorporated, this would greatly reduce costs by avoiding the use of 'special parts' exclusive to paramotors. As a first engine, i would certainly consider s small added premium that would become neglibile over time.
I'm WAY excited for this. This puts SCOUT in great position with the Icarus Challenge. You pump gas and get amazing range. I come from dirt bike culture and fly paramotors now. When Yamaha led out with the YZF426 and won with it the rest was history. That linear power, cleaner burn, and fuel economy matched with great power is fantastic!
I'm a rider, too, who is also knocking around this as my next sport. Plus, how cool to travel with it and fly all over the US. Nonetheless, SCOUT is the best by far. Safety, anti--torgue. Now a 4S? Nice! That's the one I'll buy. Like you, I believe in 4S. Maybe Yamaha, or Honda or Kawi should build these. If they did, you know they'd be fast and last. PERIOD! I want a Hayabusa PPG!
'Bailey' in the UK have been producing 4-stroke engine paramotors here in the UK for nearly twenty years, they even use the same GY6 Honda engine as a base, the one Scout has used here (re-engineered crank case). I even made my own machine based on this engine about eight years ago (check out my video's). Good engine, bit heavy though!
This looks really good. Of all claims though, I want to see the engine on a scale. 15 kgs all up weight for a 240cc 4 stroke is VERY light, this kind of figure is rarely achieved by 2-strokes of similar displacement.
Hurry up and get this thing dialed in because I'm wanting to pull the trigger on a scout and I like the idea of the 4 stroke better. I've been flying hang gliders for 7 years and I need something else to get me off the ground on calm days.
So it’s been almost 2yrs since this post and SCOUT Paramotors isn’t currently offering a 4 stroke engine. Were your predictions of it being the best Paramotor engine a bit off? I like the idea of the 4 strokes as well, but only Blackhawk seems to be selling them, at least from what I’m seeing so far. Any updates on this engine?
Awsome!! I love the Scout gear. Four stroke is the way for sure , I fly a F.B. Trike now with the four stroke Swiss Auto and love the sense of security over the two stroke. I wish I were younger because I would love to fly the back packs again so I could fly a Scout. Any way, keep building premium stuff Scout. (:
Bailey unfortunately does not come anywhere close to the power nor weight of the two stroke engines. This is why I don't consider it to be true alternative
Im excited! I would be more excited for EFI though. KTM is releasing a EFI 2 stroke this year which is awesome! The performance as well as range gains from a 2 stroke EFI engine would be monumental. Especially with how the sports environment changes so dramatically just in 1 flight. EFI would change the game. An actual developed and reliable EFI 2 stroke engine (not a EFI kit) in the industry would be unparalleled. I think we are about to see a lot of innovation come down the pipe line in coming years.
In this age of electronic ignition - EFI would be even less trouble than a carb with it's tuning even with the minor power loss associated with FI. How many 2-strokes in the field are properly tuned anyway? Good luck, Sir.
Yes, it is time to move away from the carburetors. This is the 21 century. All cars have them so why not the paramotor? What about electric start added to this 4 stroke engine?
No two stoke oil, lower fuel burn, flat powerband, lower noise, lower rpm, clutch, ....wow should I go on? If the power is truly comparable as is the weight this is a no brainer. Longevity is the key, I would imagine it has a 12:1 compression ratio to compete with two stroke power which would lower reliability somewhat but a two stroke already has a short life because it works twice as hard to do the same thing. I am excited to see this.
Very interested, hope it won't take too long before we see it on the market, this is what we want in ppg. Bailey V5 sure great stuff, but heavier, and less power. Great to see Eos working on this. I start to save right away, definitely something I would buy. But, I really hope they take a look into fuel injection if there is anything they can optimize for ppg. That would be a game changer if it came in a nice package.
Do me a favour - if I'm not mistaken this is a GY6 157 QMJ based engine - probably the commonest 4 stroke scooter motor on the planet made by dozens of China based manufacturers turning out clones of the original Honda engine it's based on. 18 to 20.5hp depending on what overbore kit you go for. Paul Bailey in the UK did it years ago with 5 versions. Looks like another CNC crankcase and overbore to me!
Scout Paramotor : I believe somewhere you said people can get into this sport now with one of the existing engines, and upgrade to the 4-stroke engine later. Since I'm not familiar with this sport yet... but just got totally jazzed by watching your 30 geometry + other videos... I have no idea how modular these paramotors are (your brand or others). Please explain what will likely be involved in upgrading to the 4-stroke engine... including which parts will need to be replaced (in addition to the engine of course). And please also just say a few words about how modular and "mix-and-match" these paramotor products are. Though I have no experience with paramotors yet, I have been a private pilot for many years... not that I expect that to make the learning process that much easier. This is probably not the place to ask, but let me also ask whether what I would want to do with my paramotor is actually practical or not. I will describe my tentative plans here: #1: I may fly here in modest altitude places for a while (4000 to 11000 feet), but the application I really need one of these paramotors for is to explore extremely remote locations in the Adacama Andes in northern Chile. Thought this area extends all the way to the pacific ocean (0 foot altitude), the lowest altitude passes between many of the andes mountains in this area range from 15000 to 18000 feet, with mountain tops from 15000 to 26000 feet. While I don't expect to climb as high as the highest peak (over 26000 feet), I would like to be able to explore many peaks in the 15000 to 23000 foot range if feasible. Yes, obviously I'll have to carry a small oxygen bottle and breathing mask.... just as I would in the small single-engine airplane that I'm planning to buy (pipistrel virus sw with 912iS engine). One guy flew one of these airplanes over the top of Mount Everest, the crazy SOB, while on a solo flying trip around the world! The reason this airplane isn't sufficient for all my needs is... I won't be able to land any regular airplane on/near the top/rim of any/many of these mountains/volcanoes, whereas obviously not much room is needed to land and stop one of these paramotors. #2: I would want to fly for as many hours as possible each trip (and the greatest distance possible too). Typically zero human beings live or work within tens to hundreds of miles of these peaks, so the logistics get vastly less hassle the further each flight can last. #3: If one was to run out of fuel near the top of one of these mountains (say 20,000 feet for talking purposes), how far can one glide for every 1000 feet of lost altitude? In other words, what is the glide ratio for a heavily loaded craft (but zero fuel remaining) at high altitudes (15000 ~ 20000 feet). The idea is... if one can glide far enough, one could plan longer excursions by planning trips that consume all fuel (followed by gliding back to the starting points at lower altitudes (typically 10,000 to 15,000 feet). #4: What kind of paramotor would you configure for such a purpose? That is, assuming there is such a thing. #5: What considerations need I consider? #6: Yes, I'm insane... but I lived and worked at high altitude observatories for many years of my life. So I'm a bit less insane than you imagine. Thanks in advance for the information! NOTE: To give you an idea of the kind of place and geology I'm talking about, click the following links to see a few photos: - www.maxreason.com/chile_atacama_altiplano_0011.jpg - www.maxreason.com/chile_atacama_valley_of_death.jpg - www.maxreason.com/chile_atacama_laguna_verde.jpg - www.maxreason.com/chile_atacama_valley_0011.jpg - www.maxreason.com/chile_atacama_alma_0011.jpg - www.maxreason.com/chile_atacama_paranal_0011h2.jpg - www.maxreason.com/chile_atacama_paranal_0012.jpg
Don't think that you should have the intake next to exhaust minor change could put the carburator facing up to get fresh air. Its getting heated air and also less oxygen..! Lots less noise too with better fuel mileage with the new motor. I was wondering when it was coming out, probable price could be cheaper too! Don't have to wind it out launching it!
1/2 the fuel burn ?? It’s impossible 20-25% less is more realistic . If the specific fuel consumption where so good on this engine , nobody els in the world would produce a engine anymore !
That's seems to be a good engine, for now though I will stick to my trusty 185 monster with over 500 hrs. on it with out a rebuild. Good luck with it, might be the real deal.
so 7 months later , do you have any updates yet ? I'm considering to get some PPG training next year and would really appreciate 4 stroke engine after my graduation , i don't like the noise of 2 strokes.
+TerraBiker I very much hope we only need one more week... One more week for some relevant updates... Still far from serial production. Do not postpone this sport! Get a 2stroke and have fun. Upgrade later!
Yup, looks like GY6 Scooter yet again, but I don't see fan cooling for the oil. Maybe more oil than a Bailey, but essentially looks the same. Same exhaust issues too. Donor Engine costs a few Hundred dollars. Nice $$$.
Please make an update video with insights from your testing...you said that you intend to put 100 hours on this motor within two months...and that was 3 months ago. This 4 stroke game changer is such an interesting topic. Please give us an update even if there isn't anything new to share we still want to know what's happening.
We participated on this project years ago as testers. Everything I said in the video was true but the engine had reliability issues and we came to a conclusion t was not ready for the testing phase yet. We stepped out of the project few years ago. The manufacturer (EOS Austria) continued the development and now they are releasing the engine to the market. I hope they succeeded to fix the issues. I will want to get one for sure. But right now I want to finish our own ongoing research and development projects before I get my hands on this one. Go get it and tell me:-)
Looks like the EOS Quattro 4 stroke is alive and looking to be released soon. Are you guys involved in the testing? Any plans to add this as an optional engine on future Scout purchases?
+General Disaster sure we had. I was even considering that for myself. The weight would not be a big issue but it had little power. I have been waiting for a powerful 4 stroke for long...
This isn't the first four stroke motor! Fresh breez has had a line off them on different units they offer in Germany and UK and ue! They weren't to popular in the US due to the demand of 2 stroke comfort society in it's up bringing! Fresh breez has some wild sick machines that will make you jelouse living in the us! they don't offer here directly! I like to see this though here because I love four stroke power anything! Good job guys and keep up the good innovation!
Wirmish, if you redirected the exhaust to the rear then the exhaust would go through the prop area, perhaps that’s not a good idea. I really don’t know. It sounds like it might not be a good idea.
Have you tried Bailey Aviation 4-stroke? It is there on the market for ages. Same story: linear, fuel-efficient, quiet, etc. The paramotor update of some classic Honda in fact.
Really interested. I like 4-strokes, but Bailey is a bit underpowered for me. Is it possible to compare the tech data? (There is nothing yet on EOS site). Also: is it injector or still carb? I am very looking forward the injector motors, since I believe it has to improve start and run (the way it did in cars industry). Thanks you!
So I'm guessing the issue of engine outs is greatly reduced with the 4 stroke? Btw, will this come with an e-start? And are we looking at 6-12 months roughly before this thing is ready to be released, or do you think it'll be 12+ months?
Wow! haven't pulled the trigger on a paramotor because of the 2 stroke engines, I simply don't trust them like the 4 strokes, if this comes out count me in for this sport...
The fours stroke paramotor engines so far are too heavy and low power. Fact is that the 2strokes are not bad at all and our sport is super-amazing. We are grateful for having them and letting us into the air. This EOS 240cc 4S will probably just be better, lets hope so.
Scout paramotor--If Husqvarna made two stroke engines for Paramotors they would never quit or need Maintenance--I have a 30 year old chainsaw that has cut several semi loads of wood, still has the original plug and has NEVER Failed to Start and Run, of course I've replaced cutting chain many times and the Bar several times--It will start on second pull anytime, summer or winter. Two Stroke Engines made by the Right people/Company are still out there.......
You would think they should be more reliable, they do indeed have WAY less parts, but that is not how it works out. Two strokes like to seize and blow up much more frequently than four strokes. It probably has something to do with the power density, and maybe that a two stroke has much less oil in contact with the engine to keep it cool as compared to a four stroke. Two strokes also have the massive design flaw of easily being able to be killed by something as simple as engine braking, or not gassing it every once in a while during cruising, thanks to their oil by throttle style of lubrication. This shouldn't matter in a paramotor application however, as its kind of hard to engine brake with props, unless you go in a very steep dive.
I'd be curious to see how this stacks up against the Nitro Tornado that was recently announced. If I can fly with a 4-stroke I will over a 2-stroke any day. However, I'm a big guy and I need a lot of thrust. I was even playing around with the idea of figuring out how to get the tornado mounted on the scout if possible. LOL
Big question over current two strokes: Does it run on 92 octane automobile pump gas? Our premium is ethanol free but many places aren't, will this motor be ok on ethanol blended fuels?
how about increasing the compression, but adding a flywheel weight for good balance and helping keep a consistent idle. i would rather not sacrifice power. titanium exhaust would help too. as far as engine internals usually a forged connecting rod, crank ,and piston and good size bearings stainless valves are tough too cheers
"The first true four stroke alternative" was actually built and sold already in 2009 by Baileyaviation.com In those days the larger 220cc engine cost +/- £6.000 (20% VAT included). Since the Bailey website seems to be very dated, I'm not sure if they still produce the engines but since I first wrote this post I've found paramotor websites that still advertise them. So Miroslav's video title is misleading at the least and not in keeping with his candidness in telling us what "mistakes" he made during the design of his paramotor system. I find it strange that since he has owned so many engines over the years, that apparently he never heard of the Bailey 4 strokes whose users had also won competition prizes... Bailey's former price will give an indication of the price point the EOS four stroke engine will probably take, so don't hold your breath for an "affordable" 4 stroke from EOS instead of the 2 strokes that dominate the market now. Having been closely involved with aviation engine projects before (ULPower Aero Engines) EOS's claim that they can make a four stroke engine with the same power output and at the same weight seems pretty far fetched to me since even after decades of internal combustion engine development by hundreds of design teams nobody I know of has even came close. (but kudoos to them if they can prove it!) As so often happens in Aviation, the beginner manufacturers in the market start out with material that is more or less affordable for "the guy in the street" and over time, improvements are made in material, features and design to the point that it then becomes unaffordable to the masses....
I know that engine. While I have a lot of respect to any innovation and I know how hard pioneering is, the Bailey does not come close to two strokes in terms of weight and power. The EOS engine seems to be the first almost match the weight and power of general 180-200 cc 2T engines.
I can only hope they manage to do it, but a four stroke only has half the number of power strokes. The 4 stroke is more efficient with its fuel because of its induction system but this also means more parts and weight but compared to a 2 stroke it will have a lighter exhaust. I'm willing to believe you but I would not bet on it because history has shown that it has not been possible to do it. Personally I believe if internal engines are going to be with us for another 10 years or so, a fuel injected 2 stroke would be very hard to beat since you are not losing a considerable part of the 2 stroke's fuel air mixture out the exhaust port.
What is or will be the final dry weight of the whole unit with cage & harness? I'm down to 2 brands and now you put up a 4 stroke for those of us who hate mixing fuel! Price range is the next question but that I know is still in the wind and it is a Scout so this will be a fun decision! My weight is my problem at 115 after cancer pounds! I know 4 strokes weigh more so 45+ pounds will be cutting it close for me in a PPG before fuel. And the broken down size will matter as I'm going back to work out of a forced retirement to pay for my new passion and RV, so it needs to fit into a Freightliner Trucks passenger door! Design a nice hstd sided wheeled carry case for it or all your toys and you have a sale! JK. This is now a new reason to love trucking. Get paid to go to new places to fly! Hoorah!! Blue Sky's and Safe Journeys!
+rolloverriderpgr I expect the total weight to be 55-57 pounds. But this is a powerful engine suitable for pilots of 200 pounds. With your weight, you do not need that much power. Sorry, too early for price quotations. We are at the beginning and there is a ton of tuning and testing to be done.
Is it possible to supercharger one of these engines to help at high altitude? I know back in the dat the P51 Mustang supercharged it's Merlin engine and that boosted performance dramatically.
yes it was the best, until they changed it to smaller. this engine needs four things. 1. electronic fuel injection. 2. decompression starting. 3. better dynamic spark control for smoother idle, like maybe on early motorcycles, or cars. 4. exhaust pipe needs better to stop dancing around, never work.
I am curious...how is it that you have such a seemingly well thought out engine, yet run the intake with no resonant air box? Beside the fact that it would be even quieter, it would be more efficient...and you could go FI! You have some work to do brother.
I have been a PAP man for 4 paramotors (PA125, F200, Moster and now Thor250) in a row but this 4-stroke would be my ticket to change the frame too! Where do I send the money? ;)
The project is still alive. We did one update video last year. Current status: Exhaust problems solved Lubrication problems seem to be fine but needs more testing Engine increased from 240 to 290cc New cylinder head with 4 valves instead of 2 Now facing some issues with cooling 3 prototypes being build now in the eos factory in austria. Hope to have the motor back for testing soon.
I am just going to put this out there. This is not new. They are using the top end of a Honda gx240 engine . Use the fuel injection of a 250 motor bike and your sorted no massive costs and you will get big power and reliability. The paramotor engines are way behind .
Sir what do you think about fresh breeze is that a good motor I'm new to this sport and would like to get gear for normal country cruising not a lot of maneuver
While I would sometimes choose design options I respect other manufacturers. I am sorry but I cannot give advice which paramotor is good or bad. My goal is to share my reasoning and teach you how to make your qualified judgment what is the paramotor for you: ua-cam.com/video/EfNU9v1FyEs/v-deo.html Today we start shooting another set of videos about frame geometry. Small details that most pilots never thought about but yet they are so important...
have the used a crank weight to help with the idle? did they balance the crank to prevent vibration? also is anyone considering e start? best of luck im watching the progress have a great day
Is this still in development ? I would love to see a 4 stroke alternative succeed.
March 31st 2017 - "I'll keep you updated". Jan 2018 - Any updates?
Wow! Rock on Miro, what a great project. If this turns out to be as good as you hope, it'll change the entire industry for the better. I'm excited!
Hey eric, love seeing all the paramotor dudes around the comment section, such a tight community
It's been a year... Has it?
Terry at Falcon 4stroke here..good work on the project, do not be detracted by downer comments. Do not try to incorporate every suggestion from would-be buyers. Return-to-LZ reliability, heat control & manageable weight are the most important features, everything else is a bonus. EFI is fine but will not produce more power than a well tuned carb. EFI is reliable but when issues arise it will be frustrating and expensive to owners. I would prefer to see the familiar Walbro pumper matched to the motor. Baily's 4stroke entry to the US market was a disaster and spoiled the 4 stroke foot-launch trend for years. Study this and don't repeat:)
I more thought..this is a process, maybe better to not share all prototype problems. This candor will be used against you by other marketers in the future. Quietly solve the problems and support the engine once it's introduced officially. Be truthful always with your buyers and you will do well.
Yes you are right. Carb at the beginning for sure...
We do not mind sharing our path to make the engine market-ready. Roland from EOS agreed to play a fair and honest game and all the issues must be solved before selling to customers. We do not mind them knowing how much trouble it takes to tune an engine...
I greatly appreciate the honesty in your process. I am not motorized yet, but am likely to go with Team Scout when I become motorized.
SCOUT paramotor This is the kind of comment that makes me twice as likely to buy a SCOUT.
Don’t agree re letting people know the development process. I think it adds to the overall trust.
While it may not produce more power, this does have advantages in that the carb does not have to be manually adjusted when changing site elevation by doing it automatically. This will save maintenance and wear on the engine by avoiding running lean or rich and ruining the piston or wasting fuel operating in a choked condition in higher altitudes. Efi is not rocket science to troubleshoot and if readily available automobile or motorcycle components can be incorporated, this would greatly reduce costs by avoiding the use of 'special parts' exclusive to paramotors. As a first engine, i would certainly consider s small added premium that would become neglibile over time.
I'm WAY excited for this. This puts SCOUT in great position with the Icarus Challenge. You pump gas and get amazing range. I come from dirt bike culture and fly paramotors now. When Yamaha led out with the YZF426 and won with it the rest was history. That linear power, cleaner burn, and fuel economy matched with great power is fantastic!
yes this would be the ultimate Icarus paramotor....but it must be reliable and time is needed to prove it.
Hopefully it's reliable like the old Honda XR motor. And hopefully they use a good titanium valve so they don't stretch out.
Single piece forge- not the bonded.
I'm a rider, too, who is also knocking around this as my next sport. Plus, how cool to travel with it and fly all over the US. Nonetheless, SCOUT is the best by far. Safety, anti--torgue. Now a 4S? Nice! That's the one I'll buy. Like you, I believe in 4S. Maybe Yamaha, or Honda or Kawi should build these. If they did, you know they'd be fast and last. PERIOD! I want a Hayabusa PPG!
SCOUT paramotor any tangible updates on the 4 stroke Miro?
'Bailey' in the UK have been producing 4-stroke engine paramotors here in the UK for nearly twenty years, they even use the same GY6 Honda engine as a base, the one Scout has used here (re-engineered crank case). I even made my own machine based on this engine about eight years ago (check out my video's). Good engine, bit heavy though!
This looks really good.
Of all claims though, I want to see the engine on a scale. 15 kgs all up weight for a 240cc 4 stroke is VERY light, this kind of figure is rarely achieved by 2-strokes of similar displacement.
Hurry up and get this thing dialed in because I'm wanting to pull the trigger on a scout and I like the idea of the 4 stroke better. I've been flying hang gliders for 7 years and I need something else to get me off the ground on calm days.
Can't wait to see 4-stroke engines a regular thing on paramotors!!
So it’s been almost 2yrs since this post and SCOUT Paramotors isn’t currently offering a 4 stroke engine. Were your predictions of it being the best Paramotor engine a bit off? I like the idea of the 4 strokes as well, but only Blackhawk seems to be selling them, at least from what I’m seeing so far. Any updates on this engine?
Wow! That engine sounded as quiet as a police motorcycle engine! Very nice! thanks for sharing.
I've been doing a bunch of research on the engines and that's just a GY6 (150cc 250cc) engine they come in mopeds. it just doesn't have the CVT Drive.
Cool unbelievable cant wait for release
😂
Awsome!! I love the Scout gear. Four stroke is the way for sure , I fly a F.B. Trike now with the four stroke Swiss Auto and love the sense of security over the two stroke. I wish I were younger because I would love to fly the back packs again so I could fly a Scout. Any way, keep building premium stuff Scout. (:
Would love to know how this project is coming along.
Me and you both. Will be a good day when 4 stroke becomes main stream
Interesting stuff! Looking forward to future updates
Scout and EOS: "The first true four stroke alternative"
Bailey: "Am I a joke to you?"
Bailey unfortunately does not come anywhere close to the power nor weight of the two stroke engines. This is why I don't consider it to be true alternative
Im excited! I would be more excited for EFI though. KTM is releasing a EFI 2 stroke this year which is awesome! The performance as well as range gains from a 2 stroke EFI engine would be monumental. Especially with how the sports environment changes so dramatically just in 1 flight. EFI would change the game. An actual developed and reliable EFI 2 stroke engine (not a EFI kit) in the industry would be unparalleled. I think we are about to see a lot of innovation come down the pipe line in coming years.
www.ecotrons.com/products/paramotor_engine_fuel_injection_kit/
What would make the 4 stroke the ultimate would be to have fuel injection!!
Yes you are right... Probably as the next step.
In this age of electronic ignition - EFI would be even less trouble than a carb with it's tuning even with the minor power loss associated with FI. How many 2-strokes in the field are properly tuned anyway? Good luck, Sir.
Yes, it is time to move away from the carburetors. This is the 21 century. All cars have them so why not the paramotor? What about electric start added to this 4 stroke engine?
starwarsfanforlife apoyemos a omega el fuerte🌎
apoyemos a omega el fuerte🌎
CAN YOU PLZ DO AN UPDATE VIDEO ON THIS ENGINE PLZ THANK YOU
can't wait to see one in person.
No two stoke oil, lower fuel burn, flat powerband, lower noise, lower rpm, clutch, ....wow should I go on? If the power is truly comparable as is the weight this is a no brainer. Longevity is the key, I would imagine it has a 12:1 compression ratio to compete with two stroke power which would lower reliability somewhat but a two stroke already has a short life because it works twice as hard to do the same thing. I am excited to see this.
electrics will retire all i.c.e. engines to the scrap heap of antiquity!
G Morehouse: Not till charging takes as long as filling up a gas tank.
Very interested, hope it won't take too long before we see it on the market, this is what we want in ppg. Bailey V5 sure great stuff, but heavier, and less power. Great to see Eos working on this.
I start to save right away, definitely something I would buy.
But, I really hope they take a look into fuel injection if there is anything they can optimize for ppg. That would be a game changer if it came in a nice package.
+Casper Nilsson it will take long. It's not fair to let the customers test the engine...
Yeah, I can wait the time needed, I know how many years it can take to make a reliable engine. And always nice to have something to look forward to.
Do me a favour - if I'm not mistaken this is a GY6 157 QMJ based engine - probably the commonest 4 stroke scooter motor on the planet made by dozens of China based manufacturers turning out clones of the original Honda engine it's based on. 18 to 20.5hp depending on what overbore kit you go for. Paul Bailey in the UK did it years ago with 5 versions. Looks like another CNC crankcase and overbore to me!
Update?
I would like to see Liquid Piston produce a rotary paramotor that is lightweight, powerful and fuel efficient.
Scout Paramotor : I believe somewhere you said people can get into this sport now with one of the existing engines, and upgrade to the 4-stroke engine later. Since I'm not familiar with this sport yet... but just got totally jazzed by watching your 30 geometry + other videos... I have no idea how modular these paramotors are (your brand or others). Please explain what will likely be involved in upgrading to the 4-stroke engine... including which parts will need to be replaced (in addition to the engine of course). And please also just say a few words about how modular and "mix-and-match" these paramotor products are. Though I have no experience with paramotors yet, I have been a private pilot for many years... not that I expect that to make the learning process that much easier.
This is probably not the place to ask, but let me also ask whether what I would want to do with my paramotor is actually practical or not. I will describe my tentative plans here:
#1: I may fly here in modest altitude places for a while (4000 to 11000 feet), but the application I really need one of these paramotors for is to explore extremely remote locations in the Adacama Andes in northern Chile. Thought this area extends all the way to the pacific ocean (0 foot altitude), the lowest altitude passes between many of the andes mountains in this area range from 15000 to 18000 feet, with mountain tops from 15000 to 26000 feet. While I don't expect to climb as high as the highest peak (over 26000 feet), I would like to be able to explore many peaks in the 15000 to 23000 foot range if feasible. Yes, obviously I'll have to carry a small oxygen bottle and breathing mask.... just as I would in the small single-engine airplane that I'm planning to buy (pipistrel virus sw with 912iS engine). One guy flew one of these airplanes over the top of Mount Everest, the crazy SOB, while on a solo flying trip around the world! The reason this airplane isn't sufficient for all my needs is... I won't be able to land any regular airplane on/near the top/rim of any/many of these mountains/volcanoes, whereas obviously not much room is needed to land and stop one of these paramotors.
#2: I would want to fly for as many hours as possible each trip (and the greatest distance possible too). Typically zero human beings live or work within tens to hundreds of miles of these peaks, so the logistics get vastly less hassle the further each flight can last.
#3: If one was to run out of fuel near the top of one of these mountains (say 20,000 feet for talking purposes), how far can one glide for every 1000 feet of lost altitude? In other words, what is the glide ratio for a heavily loaded craft (but zero fuel remaining) at high altitudes (15000 ~ 20000 feet). The idea is... if one can glide far enough, one could plan longer excursions by planning trips that consume all fuel (followed by gliding back to the starting points at lower altitudes (typically 10,000 to 15,000 feet).
#4: What kind of paramotor would you configure for such a purpose? That is, assuming there is such a thing.
#5: What considerations need I consider?
#6: Yes, I'm insane... but I lived and worked at high altitude observatories for many years of my life. So I'm a bit less insane than you imagine.
Thanks in advance for the information!
NOTE: To give you an idea of the kind of place and geology I'm talking about, click the following links to see a few photos:
- www.maxreason.com/chile_atacama_altiplano_0011.jpg
- www.maxreason.com/chile_atacama_valley_of_death.jpg
- www.maxreason.com/chile_atacama_laguna_verde.jpg
- www.maxreason.com/chile_atacama_valley_0011.jpg
- www.maxreason.com/chile_atacama_alma_0011.jpg
- www.maxreason.com/chile_atacama_paranal_0011h2.jpg
- www.maxreason.com/chile_atacama_paranal_0012.jpg
I agree with fuel injection.... top it up with coaxial counter rotation smaller dual props and you have ultimate paramotor
ua-cam.com/video/4LbyWoGGPFc/v-deo.html
great to see progression !
push for a dry sump oil system and EFI !
Don't think that you should have the intake next to exhaust minor change could put the carburator facing up to get fresh air. Its getting heated air and also less oxygen..!
Lots less noise too with better fuel mileage with the new motor. I was wondering when it was coming out, probable price could be cheaper too! Don't have to wind it out launching it!
Awesome. Thx for the update. It looks promising.
when can we expect an update on this project?
I need this now!!
3 Kids? Good on you! (Me too ;) )
Maybe it was a possibly nice alternative in 2017. Now it's more time to improve electric paramotors. Still loving the video, thank you! :)
1/2 the fuel burn ?? It’s impossible 20-25% less is more realistic . If the specific fuel consumption where so good on this engine , nobody els in the world would produce a engine anymore !
When will you have this product on the market?
That's seems to be a good engine, for now though I will stick to my trusty 185 monster with over 500 hrs. on it with out a rebuild. Good luck with it, might be the real deal.
As said in the video numerous times: The Vittorazi Moster Plus is the best engine on the market so far. Maybe until this comes out....
Plus no stinking/clinging 2 stroke oil smoke! Four strokes tend to run on the same sparkplug for much long with virtually no fouling.
so 7 months later , do you have any updates yet ? I'm considering to get some PPG training next year and would really appreciate 4 stroke engine after my graduation , i don't like the noise of 2 strokes.
+TerraBiker I very much hope we only need one more week...
One more week for some relevant updates... Still far from serial production.
Do not postpone this sport! Get a 2stroke and have fun. Upgrade later!
Yup, looks like GY6 Scooter yet again, but I don't see fan cooling for the oil. Maybe more oil than a Bailey, but essentially looks the same. Same exhaust issues too. Donor Engine costs a few Hundred dollars. Nice $$$.
Any updates on this engine?
Jan 10, 2020. Any updates? I’m guessing it didn’t go so well. Hopefully someday we’ll have reliable 4 stroke.
What's wrong with the Bailey v5
Trochu moc záběrů na ukecaného :-) designera a málo na motor - chce to vidět ho ze všech stran, parametry atp.
Please make an update video with insights from your testing...you said that you intend to put 100 hours on this motor within two months...and that was 3 months ago. This 4 stroke game changer is such an interesting topic. Please give us an update even if there isn't anything new to share we still want to know what's happening.
Waiting for an update on this video. Im not an engineer but I believe with time this could be fuel injection too.
We participated on this project years ago as testers. Everything I said in the video was true but the engine had reliability issues and we came to a conclusion t was not ready for the testing phase yet. We stepped out of the project few years ago.
The manufacturer (EOS Austria) continued the development and now they are releasing the engine to the market. I hope they succeeded to fix the issues. I will want to get one for sure. But right now I want to finish our own ongoing research and development projects before I get my hands on this one.
Go get it and tell me:-)
Well done. Please manufacture to scale of interest!
What's wrong with the bailey v5? Already a good 4stroke alternative on the market.
Děkuji Miroslav... great update 😊
+Heis aPilot we have some more stories to add already. Things are moving with this engine...
Sounds fantastic mate!
cheers..
Looks like the EOS Quattro 4 stroke is alive and looking to be released soon. Are you guys involved in the testing? Any plans to add this as an optional engine on future Scout purchases?
Maybe more poweful than previous offerings, but hardly the first viable four stroke alternative. Bailey have been doing it for years.
+Phil Passmore sure not the first 4 stroke, but the first one to really match the power and weight of the 2 strokes.
Has nobody ever heard of Bailey? They've been making 4 stroke motors for years, i'm going to fly mine this afternoon.
+General Disaster sure we had. I was even considering that for myself. The weight would not be a big issue but it had little power.
I have been waiting for a powerful 4 stroke for long...
Please put the lid on the plastic that goes where the spark plug goes. That lid is when you're at -32 farengein.
Is it available? I don't see it on the website, and two years have passed...
Unfortunately not yet. Still in development. Seems to be more difficult than expected.
This isn't the first four stroke motor! Fresh breez has had a line off them on different units they offer in Germany and UK and ue! They weren't to popular in the US due to the demand of 2 stroke comfort society in it's up bringing! Fresh breez has some wild sick machines that will make you jelouse living in the us! they don't offer here directly! I like to see this though here because I love four stroke power anything! Good job guys and keep up the good innovation!
i fly over 400 hours/year most of time,for this don't have to mix be great,also in bahamas gas is around 5 $ gallons.
bout time, longer flight times to come
You should redirect the exhaust to the rear to reduce the noise.
Wirmish, if you redirected the exhaust to the rear then the exhaust would go through the prop area, perhaps that’s not a good idea. I really don’t know. It sounds like it might not be a good idea.
Have you tried Bailey Aviation 4-stroke? It is there on the market for ages. Same story: linear, fuel-efficient, quiet, etc. The paramotor update of some classic Honda in fact.
Does not come close in power and weight
Really interested. I like 4-strokes, but Bailey is a bit underpowered for me. Is it possible to compare the tech data? (There is nothing yet on EOS site).
Also: is it injector or still carb? I am very looking forward the injector motors, since I believe it has to improve start and run (the way it did in cars industry).
Thanks you!
So I'm guessing the issue of engine outs is greatly reduced with the 4 stroke? Btw, will this come with an e-start? And are we looking at 6-12 months roughly before this thing is ready to be released, or do you think it'll be 12+ months?
Wow! haven't pulled the trigger on a paramotor because of the 2 stroke engines, I simply don't trust them like the 4 strokes, if this comes out count me in for this sport...
The fours stroke paramotor engines so far are too heavy and low power.
Fact is that the 2strokes are not bad at all and our sport is super-amazing. We are grateful for having them and letting us into the air.
This EOS 240cc 4S will probably just be better, lets hope so.
Scout paramotor--If Husqvarna made two stroke engines for Paramotors they would never quit or need Maintenance--I have a 30 year old chainsaw that has cut several semi loads of wood, still has the original plug and has NEVER Failed to Start and Run, of course I've replaced cutting chain many times and the Bar several times--It will start on second pull anytime, summer or winter. Two Stroke Engines made by the Right people/Company are still out there.......
Corral Lobo that’s extremely ignorant. 2 strokes are much more reliable!! Less parts, no oil etc
You would think they should be more reliable, they do indeed have WAY less parts, but that is not how it works out. Two strokes like to seize and blow up much more frequently than four strokes. It probably has something to do with the power density, and maybe that a two stroke has much less oil in contact with the engine to keep it cool as compared to a four stroke. Two strokes also have the massive design flaw of easily being able to be killed by something as simple as engine braking, or not gassing it every once in a while during cruising, thanks to their oil by throttle style of lubrication. This shouldn't matter in a paramotor application however, as its kind of hard to engine brake with props, unless you go in a very steep dive.
I'd be curious to see how this stacks up against the Nitro Tornado that was recently announced. If I can fly with a 4-stroke I will over a 2-stroke any day. However, I'm a big guy and I need a lot of thrust. I was even playing around with the idea of figuring out how to get the tornado mounted on the scout if possible. LOL
Why wasn't it tested with a three blade prop? Wouldn't it have been quieter, smoother and improve overall performance?
Big question over current two strokes: Does it run on 92 octane automobile pump gas? Our premium is ethanol free but many places aren't, will this motor be ok on ethanol blended fuels?
Sounds like a lot more fine tuning necessary before sales.
I would be so great, but still I don't see it for sale on their website... What happened?
Reminds me of my scooter engine. The sound of it. Did this ever get going?
4 years on, any updates?
Green Machine PPG already has a four stroke fuel injection engine but it is not a Paramotor unit...
Give me a four stroke over a 2 stroke any day!
how about increasing the compression, but adding a flywheel weight for good balance and helping keep a consistent idle.
i would rather not sacrifice power.
titanium exhaust would help too.
as far as engine internals usually a forged connecting rod, crank ,and piston and good size bearings
stainless valves are tough too
cheers
+dimitri we already have a ton of new updates. Wait for the next video...
So no fuel/oil mixing required? Does it have a closed oil system or is it total loss?
Is it fuel injected that would be the way to go as you climb it adjust the A/F ratio.
Are you still re designing it? Are you ready to start selling it? Did you work out all the bugs?
Have you given up on a four stroke engine?
The project is still on and getting closer to finish...
Hi Miro, whats the news on this engine? Is it going into production? Will the engine be available on its own and at what price?
Damn this sounds a dream to fly.. silky smooth transition I expect... hhhhhhmmmmmm I want one!!
Es ist nicht zu verstehen warum wird dieser Flachrippenriemen verwendet und nicht gleich ein Zahnriemen?
"The first true four stroke alternative" was actually built and sold already in 2009 by Baileyaviation.com In those days the larger 220cc engine cost +/- £6.000 (20% VAT included). Since the Bailey website seems to be very dated, I'm not sure if they still produce the engines but since I first wrote this post I've found paramotor websites that still advertise them.
So Miroslav's video title is misleading at the least and not in keeping with his candidness in telling us what "mistakes" he made during the design of his paramotor system. I find it strange that since he has owned so many engines over the years, that apparently he never heard of the Bailey 4 strokes whose users had also won competition prizes...
Bailey's former price will give an indication of the price point the EOS four stroke engine will probably take, so don't hold your breath for an "affordable" 4 stroke from EOS instead of the 2 strokes that dominate the market now.
Having been closely involved with aviation engine projects before (ULPower Aero Engines) EOS's claim that they can make a four stroke engine with the same power output and at the same weight seems pretty far fetched to me since even after decades of internal combustion engine development by hundreds of design teams nobody I know of has even came close. (but kudoos to them if they can prove it!)
As so often happens in Aviation, the beginner manufacturers in the market start out with material that is more or less affordable for "the guy in the street" and over time, improvements are made in material, features and design to the point that it then becomes unaffordable to the masses....
I know that engine. While I have a lot of respect to any innovation and I know how hard pioneering is, the Bailey does not come close to two strokes in terms of weight and power.
The EOS engine seems to be the first almost match the weight and power of general 180-200 cc 2T engines.
I can only hope they manage to do it, but a four stroke only has half the number of power strokes. The 4 stroke is more efficient with its fuel because of its induction system but this also means more parts and weight but compared to a 2 stroke it will have a lighter exhaust. I'm willing to believe you but I would not bet on it because history has shown that it has not been possible to do it. Personally I believe if internal engines are going to be with us for another 10 years or so, a fuel injected 2 stroke would be very hard to beat since you are not losing a considerable part of the 2 stroke's fuel air mixture out the exhaust port.
What is or will be the final dry weight of the whole unit with cage & harness? I'm down to 2 brands and now you put up a 4 stroke for those of us who hate mixing fuel! Price range is the next question but that I know is still in the wind and it is a Scout so this will be a fun decision!
My weight is my problem at 115 after cancer pounds! I know 4 strokes weigh more so 45+ pounds will be cutting it close for me in a PPG before fuel. And the broken down size will matter as I'm going back to work out of a forced retirement to pay for my new passion and RV, so it needs to fit into a Freightliner Trucks passenger door! Design a nice hstd sided wheeled carry case for it or all your toys and you have a sale! JK.
This is now a new reason to love trucking. Get paid to go to new places to fly! Hoorah!!
Blue Sky's and Safe Journeys!
+rolloverriderpgr I expect the total weight to be 55-57 pounds. But this is a powerful engine suitable for pilots of 200 pounds. With your weight, you do not need that much power.
Sorry, too early for price quotations. We are at the beginning and there is a ton of tuning and testing to be done.
SCOUT paramotor Ill have to find those 40 pounds I lost! lol
SCOUT paramotor Hmmm, nice combination for setting a world speed record!
about the 4stroke?? Is it preforming wel now?
It still isn't out though, right?
Can we use 100 cc engine
Hi there - Any update on this? :)
Is it possible to supercharger one of these engines to help at high altitude? I know back in the dat the P51 Mustang supercharged it's Merlin engine and that boosted performance dramatically.
yes it was the best, until they changed it to smaller. this engine needs four things. 1. electronic fuel injection. 2. decompression starting. 3. better dynamic spark control for smoother idle, like maybe on early motorcycles, or cars. 4. exhaust pipe needs better to stop dancing around, never work.
I am curious...how is it that you have such a seemingly well thought out engine, yet run the intake with no resonant air box? Beside the fact that it would be even quieter, it would be more efficient...and you could go FI! You have some work to do brother.
How did the weight compare? Power to weight ratio?
what happen to this game changer 4S engine?
Nothing. Out.
I have been a PAP man for 4 paramotors (PA125, F200, Moster and now Thor250) in a row but this 4-stroke would be my ticket to change the frame too! Where do I send the money? ;)
haha, keep it for a while...
WHERE IS THIS MOTOR...NEVER SEE IT ON ANYONE OR UA-cam..
Game changer fo sho. What is the rpm range?
9 months later, and no updates. Let us know what's going on with this project!
Hey Miro... What happened to the follow up to this 4 stroke motor?
The project is still alive. We did one update video last year.
Current status:
Exhaust problems solved
Lubrication problems seem to be fine but needs more testing
Engine increased from 240 to 290cc
New cylinder head with 4 valves instead of 2
Now facing some issues with cooling
3 prototypes being build now in the eos factory in austria. Hope to have the motor back for testing soon.
@@SCOUTaviation cheers dude... Thanks for a prompt reply 🙂
Greetings from Sweden 🇸🇪
I am just going to put this out there. This is not new. They are using the top end of a Honda gx240 engine . Use the fuel injection of a 250 motor bike and your sorted no massive costs and you will get big power and reliability. The paramotor engines are way behind .
Whatever happened to this engine? A year and a half later I cannot see it on the website, did it not work out?
Sir what do you think about fresh breeze is that a good motor I'm new to this sport and would like to get gear for normal country cruising not a lot of maneuver
While I would sometimes choose design options I respect other manufacturers.
I am sorry but I cannot give advice which paramotor is good or bad. My goal is to share my reasoning and teach you how to make your qualified judgment what is the paramotor for you:
ua-cam.com/video/EfNU9v1FyEs/v-deo.html
Today we start shooting another set of videos about frame geometry. Small details that most pilots never thought about but yet they are so important...
Love the sound of that engine! Any updates yet?
Ditto, updates please?
have the used a crank weight to help with the idle?
did they balance the crank to prevent vibration?
also
is anyone considering e start?
best of luck
im watching the progress
have a great day
This video just popped up, anything come from this?
Any word on when this engine will be available? Any word on estimated TBO