Virtua Fighter V R.E.V.O and VF6 | An Old Tekken Player's Opinion
Вставка
- Опубліковано 25 лис 2024
- Original trailer: • VIRTUA FIGHTER 5 R.E.V...
Yeah I'm old, but I've also been playing fighting games since the mid-80s (Yie Ar Kung Fu and Way of the Exploding Fist FTW!) so I do know a bit about this topic. I'm no expert but I have a lot to say about VF, a game that I consider to be one of the most beautifully designed games I've ever played.
#virtuafighter5 #fightinggames #tekken #oldmanshoutingatcloud
@HolloWolf35 gave some great context and insight into this situation as a follow up, and I'm going to link it here so you guys can check it out.
ua-cam.com/video/m19VtxjK5XI/v-deo.htmlsi=OVKP3Lcg3e11GAjT
The singer to the intro is Takenobu Mitsuyoshi, who is beloved in the SEGA community. He also does the vocals for Daytona USA
I'd missed that, thanks! I see why people are so excited for it!
I don't think Sega ever said they wanted VF to be like Tekken. Why, so they can fall into the scrub trap that Namco fell with Tekken 8? Tekken 8 is killing itself because of this. VF does not need to include carried mechanics.
They've not really said much about the game at all. I think people like me, especially those in the industry and aware of modern business practices, are concerned that the need to appeal to a mass audience and recoup investment will cause SEGA to look at other popular games and see how they're doing things.
This is a valid concern, we see homogenisation right across the games industry, from very strategy gaming (which is my speciality) right through to AAA stuff.
@battlemode on homognization in fighting game this started hard on street fighter during the alpha days all the way up to sf6. After sfv and sf6s debut the moder fgc devs like those of guilty gear and now tekken 7 and 8 have homogenized their games with mechanics and certain normal attacks.
New uprising devs won't follow this trend anymore as they are fellow fighting game players and gamers a like.
That's interesting! See I kinda stopped playing 2D fighting games after ... SF2 Turbo, I think? And when Tekken was released, that was it, I was a Tekken bro for about a decade lol!
I think some cross contamination of mechanics across games is fine providing it is in service to making a better game.
What I don't like is the whole "everything's a roguelike now" attitude, where money dictates games design, and I hope you're right that upcoming developers will avoid that trap.
@battlemode yeah I say uprising devs but I really mean the indie dev and AA dev. I've peeped some projects in the engine dev scene and I have to say the devs don't like the way AAA is going.
I'm kinda going g their ranks on fg development as well soon as I want to make own spin on the games I love with my own worlds and stuff.
Also I've been on both 2D and 3D fighters so I've seen some inter mixing of mechanics and ideas that did not translate as well. Lots of things getting muddled in the fg dev space for the higher devs man.
Man I can't wait to see some fighting games come out made by smaller studios. We do see them occasionally, but it seems that indy and AA sized fighting games are far rarer than other genres.
VF2 was the first 3D fighter I ever played in the 90's. Tekken 1 and 2 felt slow and clunky in comparison. To this day, Virtua Fighter just feels so fast and smooth and intuitive and I'm fine with it being a niche thing. It's the fighting game equivalent of "your favorite band's favorite band."
Right! And I see so many people who're way more into fighting games than I am talk about VF in such a loving way.
I hope I made it clear in the video that I've not been playing VF that long but after just a few days of playing it, I started to see just how damn good the core fighting mechanics are, and how well balanced it all is, at least in terms of how strikes/throws/sidesteps interact, and how it keeps you up front instead of endless backstepping like in Tekken.
Tekken 4 was like VF 4 interms of Background/Surrounding Dynamics, but that was the worst decision Tekken did coz it didn't work for them.
@@mikoxmas6122 I remember playing Tekken 4 a fair bit on release but I was more of a casual player then and wasn't into critique. I remember enjoying it though.
Dead or alive is more of a comparison than teken
As an old school gamer, I love that Sega cheese.
Yeah! SEGA should lean into that more, it's great!
i would love to see Last Bronx revived
Pin this. Last Bronx needs to be remade using the latest of today's tech but maintaining the mechanics that made the game fantastic, the Traction mechanic and Forward Roll. Combine that with new characters, miles better music, and new moves and mechanics to make the game deeper, fluid and able to move in 3D will instantly make the game the king of weapon based fighting game.
@EAprima
I wouldn't change the original music that much. It still holds very well. A natural evolution of the music would be nice.
I think the game was originally planned for a series. I wonder if enough of the original team is still around, maybe scattered but if they could, would they be up for coming together for the continuation.
i started with Tekken 7 to take fighting games serious but i agree with every word about rage and heat. I can't wait for VF5 to hit steam despite i know i will get crushed hard. Subscribed cuz the very first words about strategy games made my heart stop, Red Alert 1 was my first game ever
Thanks for the sub, appreciate it!
My channel was built playing all kinds of strategy game so I tend to focus on that but I've recently branched back out into ... well, everything really. Been a lifelong gamer since the 1980s when I was a kid.
I've tried pretty much every games genre and still play many of them, and I see the same issues creeping into all of them.
Funny story, VF1 was the first 3d fighting game i ever played on home consoles. And it was in a UK EDITION sega 32X believe it or not. A friend had his sister studying in England and brought it to him as a gift. He parked it in my house for christmas, literally brand new toy and he lent it to me for like 2 weeks. Great guy. I had to use a plug converter from uk prongs to what we use here. It was a nightmare, no cable felt securely in place, and there were cables up the wazoo. 32X was insane. Anyway, I played 3 games there, DOOM 32x, Virtua Fighter and Virtua Racing. While DOOM blew me away (i did not have my own pc just yet), I loved playing 2 player VF with my brother. It felt completely different to what i was used to. It was not...good by any means, it was slow as all hell frozen over, extremely low framerate, very basic moves, but when you are a kid playing that kind of thing in its hayday it is very different.
Anyway, I fully agree, why on earth would you want 2 tekken series instead of one tekken and one VF?? And come on, the character designs in VF are some of the most iconic. Famously though, Japanese developers tend to stick to their guns more than western studios do, they tend to be very stubborn. So I think VF is safe from being compromised to fit popular tastes, i think.
Wow great response dude, thanks as always! Great to hear the old days of mormengil :D
I hope you're right about VF. I think the developers would be making a huge mistake if they try to make it too much like other series, so I really hope you're right and they stick to what makes VF great.
Virtua Fighter is supposed to be a fairly realistic fighting game, hence the name Virtua Fighter. So they don't need meters or modes, just pure fighting.
Air juggling is not realistic enough tho'. Where in real world a guy punch another guy in the ankle mid-air to make him stay mid-air??
I say VF should ditch this slow-motion floating gravity nonsense. I think it was just a limitation of the tech back then, not what they actually had in mind when creating it.
The music is sung by the same guy who sang Daytona USA, Takenobu Mitsuyoshi.
Thanks!
I’m curious with VF (and Garou on the pipeline) and I’d like to try - coming from third strike, MVC1, versus series.
Great video, love the commentary!
The new SNK game looks awesome, I really can't wait for that either!
The music is just the right amount of old-school japanese videogame cheese. I'm loving it.
I'm mixed on it. I think it's a poor choice to appeal to people who don't get the reference or know who the singer is, but it does appeal to existing fans I guess.
@battlemode guess you're right on that. It's really not very "modern", if you will. To (new) western players at least. People over in Japan probably eat that shit up. 😅
Another great rant on recent fighting game development. Haven't played the genre since I got pummeled in Virtua Fighter by my 10 year old son back in the days. Really interesting, however is that you use to be a professional juggler. I am amazed by people who can juggle, especially the Japanese Daikagura old dudes; what an incredible skill. I would imagine that the incredible multi tasking techniques you have required to juggle would naturally carry over to prowess in intense multi tasking RTS games such as Age of Empires, Starcraft or Command & Conquer. Is that the case and how do you find them?
Thanks, glad you enjoyed it!
There's less muscle memory involved with RTS games I'd say. I had a brief stint of trying to play Command & Conquer 3: Tiberium Wars competitively, and I got quite good very quickly, but the genre felt too closed for me to really be too excited about.
But yes, I think some of the same practices can help you get better at both.
Fighting games however are more about execution of "moves", much like juggling.
By the way, if you look on my channel I've still got my old juggling promo video a friend made for me of me, that I used to get work back in the 2010s. It's a bit tricksy as there's a short moment near the end where he reversed the footage to make it fit the music but that aside, that's pretty much me. I got a lot better than that too :D
im not asking for a gameplay to be like tekken but, man give the character designs more drip these dudes are plain as fuck.
I really want a better selection of character customisation options.
In that respect, Tekken 7 and 8 have VF5 US beat, although 8's monetisation there is ... yeah.
The worst part is that they have some custom costumes that go insane, but for whatever reason they refuse to make any of them default. Akira in the plain white gi instead of his navy fit will always bother me, he looked great in VF2 and VF3
Similar boat to you mate! Huge Tekken fan growing up, got SERIOUSLY into T7, but have quickly put down T8 as the heat system is just dreadful and Bamco have done nothing but piss everyone off for the past ~11months.
I just hope VF6 leans more into into itself rather than copying Tekken, If it's looks GORGEOUS and they stop using those dated SOUND FX :D (altough a classic SFX pack would be awesome) I think they are already onto a winner. If it leans too much into modern game conventions, it will kill itself VERY QUICKLY.
@@TheNomadJack i don't hate Tekken 8, I was being a bit hyperbolic but I don't love it either. I actually uninstalled it recently and probably won't go back to it. Been playing VF and a bunch of old 2D fighters instead
Harada was hoping VF could give Tekken compilation
I know sticking to what it does best and competing with Tekken is unlikely but i hope they can surprised us
It would be cool seeing a lot of people getting interested in the new VF
Tekken needs competition, currently it's in a bad place IMO
As a long time Virtua Fighter fan (and a bit of a fan of old school Tekken!) I really appreciate your analysis. If they start putting those stupid "Super Art" things in Virtua Fighter I'll be very disappointed. Likewise with the aesthetics - if anything it needs to lean further into it's unique look and feel to maintain its niche. I was put off the latest Tekken game when I saw what they'd done with the super move cutscenes and all that. Seems to be trying to turn itself into Street Fighter. It had a great aesthetic in the mid late 90s. All the 3D fighters started converging somewhat after that I would say. Update these things by all means but you need to keep their identity.
@@retromuel I'm glad to hear I'm not the only fan who feels this way! Let's hope VF6 turns out great!
The bloke singing is Takenobu Mitsuyoshi, he's a fucking legend to SEGA fans
DAYTONAAAAAAAAAAAAAA LETS GO AWAY!!!!!
I didn't know that but I consider myself educated!
You can tell it's heartfelt for sure!
I hate juggling too. A fight should be where everyone improvise depending on opponent. My style is to react and kind of muscle memory…i learn every moves and some of them i crystalize automatically out. I would say i am developing a natural style by playing. Then i look for moves i do not use and sometimes i integrade them and change my style a bit.
as a new player in fighting game ... this t8 is so fun for me ... winning or losing I just wanna be better player
don't know about VF at all but seems interesting...
So long as you enjoy the games and their learning process that's great! There are many excellent quality fighting games out there, so you've got a lot to explore!
Thumbs up for the VF love!
I do love it! Thank you!
Not a fighting game guy at all, but hells yeah, i'm sitting down for this :)
Always interesting to hear you talk game design! I also wanted to mention I dove into Gladius because of your Zephon stream. I'm really enjoying it so far. I really like the tooltip system. I don't mind failing to learn. It reminds me of how some roguelikes are extremely easy to pick up, but brutal in difficulty. It makes losing a fun experience to me, I think learning as you go along is one of the most importent aspects of a game. I think that's why I also enjoy playing flight sims with a hotas. It's incredibly immersive, it's a physical way of playing like you mentioned with the arcade stick. What keeps me coming back though is learning a plane bit by bit. Seems like something you might enjoy as well.
I haven't played any flight sims for a long time but I have a HOTAS, I bought it for playing Elite Dangerous and it was SOOO much fun while it lasted!
Last thing I played with it was Mechwarrior 5: Mercenaries. Totally get what you mean here.
Really glad to hear someone enjoyed the video! Cheers dude!
@@battlemode Ah nice one, got mine for Elite Dangerous, realized immersion was of the charts, but was already struggling with the existential emptiness of Elite. So was forced to look for things I could do with the HOTAS. Ended up trying IL-2 Cliffs of Dover Blitz and hopping over to DCS, mainly WWII airplanes. It's something else! (even though it's been a while) I'm not going into all the downsides here, alas there is no perfect combat flight sim out there.
@@bloyamind "existential emptyness" is a perfect description for ED, it's a shame because it's got great potential but you really need to play MP to get the most out of it and I can't be bothered now.
Space sim games always have big flaws somehow.
@@battlemode It's such a shame indeed, because nothing seems to come close, space wise, to the feeling ED gives when flying hotas without assistance.
Its the only fighting game i like, I always had trouble with 2d fighters weird pretzels commands, have trouble doing them in certain directions and its frustrating when you know what you must do and your body cant do it. VF complex simplicity always stuck with me ever since the late 90s. And I understand why this game is a darling.
Ah that's really interesting, yeah I'd never thought of that. 3D fighting games tend not to have those pretzel-like commands, they're more about a single direction (or double tap, or back-forwards).
Now, Virtua Fighter does have some half-circle moves but they're not a defining feature of the series. I play Sarah and she's got a single throw that requires a half-circle, and that's it. The grapplers like Wolf might have a lot more though.
Virtua fighter 5 being tweaked further other than graphics might as well be a vf 6 so for a vf6 I would lean even further into realism but have a vf classic mode in the game.
I'd take that!
My main wish for VF6 is a return to the excellent single player content that VF4 had. Man that game is still great!
Eileen is annoying both because she's tiny and is juggling Taka, but the other is mostly her repositioning throws and her fakeouts. She has one that's not easy to react to because of the timing that leads to a pretty big combo. Usually moves without much risk which lead to big combos are blamed for a character's lameness, and she's one of them that gets that flack. I think, too, she has some of the longer combos so it's extra annoying in that regard having to wait an extra second so she can deal an extra more jab's worth of damage.
Ah I did wonder if it was something mechanical like that, rather than the irritating look on her face when she wins :D
I think ppl who want to modernize it are also Yakuza or Like a Dragon fans who want the heat mechanic and personality of Yakuza which resembles Tekken at times
Ah ok, that makes sense. I ain't played that, any good?
@@battlemode I personally like the older games. After the mass popularity that was gained by Yakuza 0, I started to really not be engaged with the series. I didn't like the remakes for 1 and 2 because they took away the charm and the jank. I may be very biased though.
I think they should do away with the weight systems for all characters except Taka. Weight doesn't effect just the top level players. You will wiff a combo if you don't know weight classes, and top players are not the only ones doing combos. IMO no one would miss it if it were gone, but there would definitely be people annoyed at it's inclusion.
Also, it was only VF4 and VF4: EVO that had the amazing tutorials. They ditched it completely with VF5 which was a MASSIVE bummer. I have never seen a training mode like it (Apparently Skullgirls has something similar) and would be very disappointed if it wasn't included in VF6. It really demonstrates how tight and thought out the fighting system was. It actually felt like an expert was there with you, showing you exactly how to do things, and pointing out exactly what your doing wrong.
Example: Your learning a difficult juggle combo but you keep dropping it at a certain point. The game will tell you "Your inputs for P+G is too slow. Try to do it quicker after doing PPK."
It will even allow you to slow the game down to make it easier. Then you can gradually speed the game up when you get used to the timing. It truly is a remarkable training system and if more people were aware that something like this is possible, they would be asking for it in every fighting game. Tekken could never do something like this because the developers don't have complete control over their fighting mechanics. Tekken is amazing, but the game is jank as fuck when compared Virtua Fighter.
I've been playing VF4 a bit and I completely agree about the training mode, I think it's fantastic. It looks like it had a hell of a lot of thought and effort go into it, as did single player modes.
VF5 US was a real barebones experience by comparison, at least in terms of single player mode.
The other issue with Tekken is that the AI can't play the game to a high level. VF can play the game well enough to challenge you for a good while (at least I've found that to be the case, but I'm not the strongest player for sure), but Tekken has stuff like Korean backdash that the AI just can't do.
The one argument for keeping weight classes in is to combat the issue I discussed with Tekken here, where new players tend to get trapped just learning one or two combos and spamming them out repeatedly.
VF solved this way back, by putting the weight class system in. Those combos don't work on every character which forces players out of that habit.
I think it was a very elegant solution and certainly a hell of a lot better than Rage Arts.
I think your right, if that was AM2's intent with the weight system. I think my issue is that I want this franchise to succeed so much that I would I want them to remove as many barriers to entry as possible without compromising the core gameplay, and the weight system seems like an easy cut.
But then again, the roster is so small, learning all these nuances shouldn't be too much of an issue, assuming people are willing to learn.
I know your stance on newbies when it comes to design decisions, but this game doesn't have the cool factor to appeal to the masses like Tekken. Unless they unveil something in the meantime to change that, this game will live or die by the gameplay revamps they do in REVO and VF6. If this doesn't work out, we will never see another VF again.
Who knows? Maybe they will make this game a budget title like they did for VF4:EVO, and focus entirely on the hardcore FGC. I would be all on board with that too.
@@aeson6294 I think as long as the games development industry is still in love with easy money, all old franchises are potentially on the table. They cannot afford a dud game though, I agree there.
My stance on it is this: I'm nervous for VF6 after hearing some of the rumours of "made for e-sports" etc. but at least VF5 as we have it now is always going to be a great game, and so if they do mess it up, we've always got the old games.
I always liked Eileen. I played her and Aoi the most
She's got a really interesting style, and Aoi looks great too. I'm thinking of picking up Aoi as my 2nd character
Im with ya but im recording my response bro.
Nice! Link me when you get it up, would love to see that. Cheers!
Takenobu Mitsuyoshi is the cheeseball king of 90s Sega arcade goodness. Daytona!!! His terrible voice is music to any elderly Sega fan's ears.
@@retromuel that's cool, I don't hate it but I do think it's an odd choice of SEGA are trying to get new fans, bur certainly will appeal to fans who know what it is
@@battlemode Yeah I mean I think it's a dreadful song, don't get me wrong. His stuff is always cheeseball but it usually has a very strong melody and drive to it too. This one doesn't. Still it might be a "good" sign paradoxically because only Sega heads are going to recognise that voice and Sega surely must be aware of that.
As some1 who only played tekken till mk9 nd sf4 on 360 idm tekken 8 if it wasnt fir the atrocious heat balancing and imo it feels exactly like sf6 heat and heat dash is just di and dr i miss when tekken was diff to sf and sf diff to mk like vf5 i played for the first time yesterday and imo it shows how harada could have made TEKKEN 'more offensive' without heat i think it rlly is just all modern fighting games losing there identities and eventually it aint gon be anything to wat the series (TK,SF,) were knowm for
I'm hoping this fascination that the games industry has with safe, easy remakes and homogenised mechanics stolen from other games/genres will eventually end.
I know why they do it, and there's a sound financial reason to make safe games like that, but it's kinda killing the games themselves isn't it?
I just want vf6 to have a boxer even though I know it probably won’t happen lol
That's a great idea actually, I see no reason it couldn't be done if they really thought about it
Fans don't want Virtua Fighter to be as flashy as Tekken. It should just lean into it's grounded martial arts theme. Why are VF's menus sleek and sci-fi? Why do they always use Dural who is also sleek and sci-fi. Pick a theme and stick to it.
Hate Eileen? she's my main!!!
Nice! Yeah I tried her first as I got a thing for Monkey Kung Fu, my kung fu teacher was one of the only guy's in the west who did a bit of Drunken Monkey and it always looked so damn cool!
Takenobu Mitsuyoshi > Taylor Swift
Pretty much any real musician is greater than the Queen of Bland
Good video when it came to the VF segment and i agree have VF stay VF But that tekken segment goes straight to scrubqoutes 😂😂
Ha fair enough, but I did play Tekken quite extensively and made the jump out of the scrub ranks myself to.. lower intermediate, I'd say, and so I do have some understanding of what it's like to crawl up the ranks and what you face doing that.
I Will admit i got abit jaded Due to alot of red to fujin players shows up to my locals and all they talk about is how bullshit flowcharts and RA are and yet those are the 2 things that sends you back To the ranked que the fastest and Ofc How ”casino” the game
Charakter Design is weak👎👎👎
I disagree, but thanks for the comment!
Sorry, that song is just horrible.
Yes, while I understand the desire to appeal to SEGA's existing fanbase with that choice of singer, it's a poor choice for bringing in new players I think.
@ It doesnt speak well of their valuing the franchise by going with an objectively horrible song for the trailer. It just seems cheap.
@@drjcup3228 I think it'd be more accurate to postulate that they know their core market is Japan, and aim their marketing at the Japanese in the first instance.
While we are at it let's talk about Jeffery and his racist animalistic depiction. Also how virtua fighter lightens up the skin of the darker characters each game. Now comes the gaslighting.
I'll pass thanks