Great video, this topic needs to be talked about more. Because even sports differ with their weight training. And a lot of people simply jump to conclusions instead of asking why they do a certain exercise that way. And they would understand why us athletes do things differently.
As a former Triple Jumper, weightlifting is 100% nuanced. The RDLs and Squats I do now for hypertrophy are fundamentally different from the nordics and weighted box jumps we did for conditioning and explosive strength. Different goals but similar-looking movements.
Because technique isn't very relevant if you're not a barbell sport athlete trying to maximise their numbers. If you work hard and get it good enough the tissues will adapt and grow, which is all an athlete needs.
It's still a problem in the S&C world of turning weight training into sports+weight, instead of more correctly parsing out specific qualities and having periodization in mind. There's definitely a place for partials and weighted jumps and the like for sports performance, but it's with the intent of building specific qualities. When I was training for vertical jump, I used to do plyometrics and sprints for reactive strength, weighted jumps and cleans for explosive strength, full ROM squats for top end strength and flexibility, and occasional quarter squats or high box squats for joint angle specific max strength. In the end, though, I spent a lot of time just jumping. There's a spectrum of specificity and it's up to the strength coach to determine how much of each quality needs to be emphasized for that athlete.
If you think that someone, who is at their peak in their category, is doing badly at the thing they are literally the best in the world at, then you are wrong.
I think ppl are getting too obsessed with form. For example, treating our backs like they're made out of glass and will break when bent is just pure bullshit.
I also imagine that a lot of their strength for the sport is gained from actually practicing the sport itself, and their time in the gym matters less than a bodybuilder who gains all of their strength from the gym.
i think that greatly depends on what the sport is about ofc you need to practice the sport a lot to perform the techniques well and everything, but strength will very often be well beneficial. a runner will improve his legs' running endurance by running, but pretty sure they also need high explosive strength to kick with better force, which you get from the gym. i recently started training martial arts, and yea i need to practice the art a lot to perform each technique correctly, and to use it well. however, i also need great arm and leg strength to hit harder, AND core strength to take harder hits. doubt the better strength will come from just punching and kicking a pillow, but lifting weights will improve the overall strength
I have to say I disagree, but I'm not well versed in athletics so this might be a bad take. But a lot of sports coaches, and trainers are awful - they are just working with elite people. Some of these exercises put insanely high stress on tendons and joints that these athletes are hammering all the time for their sport. In my opinion, more technical sport practice with whatever form of low rep high effort weight training with ranges of motion ideally just slightly greater than there sports requirement (if appropriate). Risk Vs reward of random weight exercises just isn't there for me.
Your take is pretty correct. Many sports coaches are VERY bad at programming training tailored to specifically improve muscle strength, muscle hypertrophy or ventrical stroke volume and Vo2 Max. Many claim exercises are sports specific because they only work through a limited range of motion, when in reality they are limiting the results from that training, often with supramaximal loads which can cause injuries more easily.
Pro athletes also need to make sure they are resilient in movements that are not common in their sport. For example, pro baseball players pull a lot of hamstrings since their movements are often forward and not backwards. Outfielders get cold in the fall and go to a sprint backwards and pull a hamstring since their quads are overdeveloped compared to their hamstrings.
Really Form is whatever outside of injury prevention if you move a weight from a to b you will get stronger thats it the muscle does not care about your techniqe
Not exactly, because if you want to train a specific muscle optimally, your movement pattern should line up with that contractile direction. Moving from A to B can be done in many ways, but some ways will be more efficient.
@BackGuy of course but generally speaking if I do a biceps contraction I'll train my biceps wether that's 100% or maybe just 80% optimal is not super relevant for non strength athletes they can just do a few extra reps 😅
@@ZoeylaRose I would argue Training optimally is actually more important to for them. They have a very limited work capacity in the gym since most of their training should go into their primary sport. Wich means that they should youse their energy as efficient as possible (The exception of course being the muscle mass cap that was mentionend in the video)
@@nocbvideos6458 maybe but at some point the returns of knowing the optimal arm angle for your lateral raises are not worth learning about when you could improve more pressing areas
well thats easy. i put the shape i always wanted and always heard shit about my workouts. Well thats something a pastor dont preach and the teacher cant teach, no technique cant replace fuckin FLOW ENERGY AND HEART. point blank period
The whole "bad form" idea coming from "muscle isolation", because you dont' do a certain move certain way, you are "using the wrong muscles", which is bullshit to begin with, human bodies never isolate muscle every move is a compound move, and as long as you have a certain function to be done, according muscles will be at work, even if you don't want it to. Strength athletes don't believe muscle isolation, agility athletes don't believe it, and endurance athletes don't believe it, who does? Gym bros, and gym bros are dumb. As long as a motion is done within human anatomy capability, and you factor in environment and equipment safety, it's a good move, it might get better in training efficiency if you are thinking about muscle gain, but even so, there is rarely any form bad. Take it as a tip, when someone tells you "oh, you been doing xxx wrong, let me tell you what's right", and this person has a financial gain on you with that topic? Be aware, 9 out of 10 times that person is about to trick you into buying physical or intellectual products.
It's insane that someona hast to do a video like this. Bodybuilders live with their heads inside their asses so much that they don't know that there are other sports in the world
How do we tell if the sports specific exercises are what's leading to improvement vs superb genetic athletes who just get good at the sport despite a terrible trainer that makes them do poor technique exercises?
Through studies that can help us generalize and understanding the physiology behind what drives performance. It's very difficult to call out unless you've got a pretty deep understanding of training and performance.
At the top levels every athlete is equally as talented what distance them is the training the only sports I can think off where genetics play more of a role is basketball
Do you honestly believe that athletes that try their best to win gold medals would do subpar training? You can just look how athletes on different sports train and it’s always very similar.
How I understand it: 1. Most athletes dont want to grow as much muscle as possible because the extra weight and O2 needs impair performance. 2. Most sports only demand limited ranges of motion so you get the most carry over only training those specific ranges
1st point is pretty spot on. The 2nd is opposed by modern research. Athletes shouldn't exclusively train within a limited range of motion for the sake of specificity. For example we've had recent studies showing that those who trained with deep squats vs quarter squats saw larger improvements in both variations, had more improvements in their vertical jump and knee extensor force production across all angles (and less reported pain). The limited range of motion strategy can work well in certain cases, but will generally speaking limit results across multiple spectrums.
Most of those comments are usually made by gym rats or gym bro with aim on aesthetics/bodybuilding that need full range of motion. It's funny because despite the considering physical efforts need in bodybuilding, i think they forgot that their discipline is an art form meaning that you need creativity in your training more than the "perfect" routine.
Not as a part of off season training, but there can be some benefit in programming it closer to comp to reduce fatigue and maximize some form of neural output.
Helps bounce the weight up and for football players we only care about how many reps of 225 we can get in any way to get more reps easier is what we’re gonna do cause that’s the weight they test at the combine
Nahh that full depth squat is a myth. In a jump you are using stored elastic energy. To train this you have to do quarter squats. Isaiah Rivera is the highest jumper in the world and he agrees with this statement. This shows bodybuilders dont know anything from athlete training.
The research opposes this. What even is "elastic" energy? Can you explain it in a way that makes physiologically sense? Again, using great athletes as examples for what training modes are the best is anecdotal, we need to see the trends, understand the mechanisms behind performance and not let the performance of the top 0.001% cloud judgement of what actually drives maximal acceleration. Isaiah also does a lot of full ROM training, and the athletes with the highest average vertical jump are olympic weightlifters, which is documented.
What Isaiah really said is to do full rom squats for general work and foundational strength at the start of a training cycle then switch to more specific exercises like quarter squats in the later stages.
Kyriakos Grizzly is a great example of this. His training is very subpar, yet he's the most athletic man on earth
You made one mistake. Kyriakos Grizzly is no mere "man"
@@John_Smith455 He's a greek demigod!
Seeing 400lb grizzly doing multiple chip ups without kicking his legs was insane
@@Gojimaru I would argue a full god!😂
Great video, this topic needs to be talked about more. Because even sports differ with their weight training. And a lot of people simply jump to conclusions instead of asking why they do a certain exercise that way. And they would understand why us athletes do things differently.
As a former Triple Jumper, weightlifting is 100% nuanced. The RDLs and Squats I do now for hypertrophy are fundamentally different from the nordics and weighted box jumps we did for conditioning and explosive strength. Different goals but similar-looking movements.
Because technique isn't very relevant if you're not a barbell sport athlete trying to maximise their numbers. If you work hard and get it good enough the tissues will adapt and grow, which is all an athlete needs.
It’s more that genetics play more of a factor than their throwaway workouts.
I wish I was so athletic that adding 3kg would somehow effect my performance. Damn.
It's still a problem in the S&C world of turning weight training into sports+weight, instead of more correctly parsing out specific qualities and having periodization in mind. There's definitely a place for partials and weighted jumps and the like for sports performance, but it's with the intent of building specific qualities.
When I was training for vertical jump, I used to do plyometrics and sprints for reactive strength, weighted jumps and cleans for explosive strength, full ROM squats for top end strength and flexibility, and occasional quarter squats or high box squats for joint angle specific max strength. In the end, though, I spent a lot of time just jumping. There's a spectrum of specificity and it's up to the strength coach to determine how much of each quality needs to be emphasized for that athlete.
Hey man, love your videos. But will we ever see a return to the weekly doses of fitness?
I double that
Not likely, but I will do something similar with UA-cam shorts!
I loved the weekly doses of fitness and really miss them! I wonder why they went away.
@@BackGuy booooo
Good video man. Its been a long time since i learned something from a video.
Awesome content thank you Mr. Back
I think you gave this more thought than the average S&C coach for amazing athletes.
And some of them simply do dumb shit that looks cool on social media 😅
That video from the front of the Norwegian guy running hurdles is awesome. You can tell he's extremely powerful.
It doesn't matter as long as you feel it in the muscles. Only benefit of slow movement on the negative rep is to prevent injury
Slow? maybe. Controlled? nope
If you think that someone, who is at their peak in their category, is doing badly at the thing they are literally the best in the world at, then you are wrong.
I’m can’t get away with bad form cuz BackGuy is my coach 🗿
1:40 seems to be training his lower legs for speed and power with the way he is lifting his ankles.
I would ask what their end goals are.
I think ppl are getting too obsessed with form. For example, treating our backs like they're made out of glass and will break when bent is just pure bullshit.
4:20 Missed opportunity for manlet range of motion :(
😂
I also imagine that a lot of their strength for the sport is gained from actually practicing the sport itself, and their time in the gym matters less than a bodybuilder who gains all of their strength from the gym.
i think that greatly depends on what the sport is about
ofc you need to practice the sport a lot to perform the techniques well and everything, but strength will very often be well beneficial. a runner will improve his legs' running endurance by running, but pretty sure they also need high explosive strength to kick with better force, which you get from the gym.
i recently started training martial arts, and yea i need to practice the art a lot to perform each technique correctly, and to use it well. however, i also need great arm and leg strength to hit harder, AND core strength to take harder hits. doubt the better strength will come from just punching and kicking a pillow, but lifting weights will improve the overall strength
@Mutrax4706 That is very true. When I wrote it I was thinking your average cardio-based sport rather than high intensity sport.
I have to say I disagree, but I'm not well versed in athletics so this might be a bad take.
But a lot of sports coaches, and trainers are awful - they are just working with elite people.
Some of these exercises put insanely high stress on tendons and joints that these athletes are hammering all the time for their sport.
In my opinion, more technical sport practice with whatever form of low rep high effort weight training with ranges of motion ideally just slightly greater than there sports requirement (if appropriate).
Risk Vs reward of random weight exercises just isn't there for me.
Your take is pretty correct. Many sports coaches are VERY bad at programming training tailored to specifically improve muscle strength, muscle hypertrophy or ventrical stroke volume and Vo2 Max. Many claim exercises are sports specific because they only work through a limited range of motion, when in reality they are limiting the results from that training, often with supramaximal loads which can cause injuries more easily.
"It doesn't make a whole lot of sense for a football player to have huge biceps"
Then why is Adebayo Akinfenwa the greatest footballer of all time?
He's the exception to every rule
all my homies hate joel seedman
Pro athletes also need to make sure they are resilient in movements that are not common in their sport. For example, pro baseball players pull a lot of hamstrings since their movements are often forward and not backwards. Outfielders get cold in the fall and go to a sprint backwards and pull a hamstring since their quads are overdeveloped compared to their hamstrings.
>their quads are overdeveloped compared to their quads.
Ahh yes ofcourse
Backwards movement is more quads and forwards movement is more hamstring. What are you talking about lol I think you have it backwards.
@@mathiassvedman419 Yes, but s sudden movement backwards can tweek a hammy.
Really Form is whatever outside of injury prevention if you move a weight from a to b you will get stronger thats it the muscle does not care about your techniqe
Not exactly, because if you want to train a specific muscle optimally, your movement pattern should line up with that contractile direction. Moving from A to B can be done in many ways, but some ways will be more efficient.
@BackGuy of course but generally speaking if I do a biceps contraction I'll train my biceps wether that's 100% or maybe just 80% optimal is not super relevant for non strength athletes they can just do a few extra reps 😅
@@ZoeylaRose I would argue Training optimally is actually more important to for them. They have a very limited work capacity in the gym since most of their training should go into their primary sport. Wich means that they should youse their energy as efficient as possible (The exception of course being the muscle mass cap that was mentionend in the video)
@@nocbvideos6458 maybe but at some point the returns of knowing the optimal arm angle for your lateral raises are not worth learning about when you could improve more pressing areas
Can't resist Devon Larratt when talking about micro-reps ay
You are Norwegian? 👀 Hei fra Østfold 👋
well thats easy. i put the shape i always wanted and always heard shit about my workouts. Well thats something a pastor dont preach and the teacher cant teach, no technique cant replace fuckin FLOW ENERGY AND HEART. point blank period
Here for my goodnight kiss.
fellow hunterxhunter fan spotted
So what was the purpose of bouncing the weights like that?
The whole "bad form" idea coming from "muscle isolation", because you dont' do a certain move certain way, you are "using the wrong muscles", which is bullshit to begin with, human bodies never isolate muscle every move is a compound move, and as long as you have a certain function to be done, according muscles will be at work, even if you don't want it to.
Strength athletes don't believe muscle isolation, agility athletes don't believe it, and endurance athletes don't believe it, who does? Gym bros, and gym bros are dumb. As long as a motion is done within human anatomy capability, and you factor in environment and equipment safety, it's a good move, it might get better in training efficiency if you are thinking about muscle gain, but even so, there is rarely any form bad.
Take it as a tip, when someone tells you "oh, you been doing xxx wrong, let me tell you what's right", and this person has a financial gain on you with that topic? Be aware, 9 out of 10 times that person is about to trick you into buying physical or intellectual products.
Good technique is good because i makes your training easier and less dangerous, nevertheless it is pretty much overrated .
It's insane that someona hast to do a video like this. Bodybuilders live with their heads inside their asses so much that they don't know that there are other sports in the world
Bodybuilders, powerlifters, and then there's real athletes.
Bodybuilding isn't a sport .... Or performance or endurance 🧐
Only sport I know is breakdancing.
@Feet_Factory performance
Bodybuilding is hilarious
THE ONE PIECE IS REALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL 📢📢📢📢
How do we tell if the sports specific exercises are what's leading to improvement vs superb genetic athletes who just get good at the sport despite a terrible trainer that makes them do poor technique exercises?
Through studies that can help us generalize and understanding the physiology behind what drives performance. It's very difficult to call out unless you've got a pretty deep understanding of training and performance.
At the top levels every athlete is equally as talented what distance them is the training the only sports I can think off where genetics play more of a role is basketball
Do you honestly believe that athletes that try their best to win gold medals would do subpar training? You can just look how athletes on different sports train and it’s always very similar.
Genetics
How I understand it:
1. Most athletes dont want to grow as much muscle as possible because the extra weight and O2 needs impair performance.
2. Most sports only demand limited ranges of motion so you get the most carry over only training those specific ranges
1st point is pretty spot on. The 2nd is opposed by modern research. Athletes shouldn't exclusively train within a limited range of motion for the sake of specificity. For example we've had recent studies showing that those who trained with deep squats vs quarter squats saw larger improvements in both variations, had more improvements in their vertical jump and knee extensor force production across all angles (and less reported pain).
The limited range of motion strategy can work well in certain cases, but will generally speaking limit results across multiple spectrums.
@BackGuy
The more you know
Ronaldo at 8:20
Most of those comments are usually made by gym rats or gym bro with aim on aesthetics/bodybuilding that need full range of motion.
It's funny because despite the considering physical efforts need in bodybuilding, i think they forgot that their discipline is an art form meaning that you need creativity in your training more than the "perfect" routine.
This video is stupid.
Anyway i bet there is no benefit in doing that type of "shrug"...
Not as a part of off season training, but there can be some benefit in programming it closer to comp to reduce fatigue and maximize some form of neural output.
Lifting the ass off the bench has absolutely no justification.
Helps bounce the weight up and for football players we only care about how many reps of 225 we can get in any way to get more reps easier is what we’re gonna do cause that’s the weight they test at the combine
@Mokuteke Horrible for your spine and is not training your triceps
@@ThunderXSurge Lifting the butt wont affect the spine lol
@@larsenconditioning6742 At lower levels sure
@@ThunderXSurge Nah mate even at 315 it still wont do anything.
Basically myob for other people's training regimes, you're not paid to be anybody's armchair coach anyhow
Nahh that full depth squat is a myth. In a jump you are using stored elastic energy. To train this you have to do quarter squats. Isaiah Rivera is the highest jumper in the world and he agrees with this statement. This shows bodybuilders dont know anything from athlete training.
The research opposes this. What even is "elastic" energy? Can you explain it in a way that makes physiologically sense? Again, using great athletes as examples for what training modes are the best is anecdotal, we need to see the trends, understand the mechanisms behind performance and not let the performance of the top 0.001% cloud judgement of what actually drives maximal acceleration. Isaiah also does a lot of full ROM training, and the athletes with the highest average vertical jump are olympic weightlifters, which is documented.
What Isaiah really said is to do full rom squats for general work and foundational strength at the start of a training cycle then switch to more specific exercises like quarter squats in the later stages.
They are ego lifting, period.