Caution! cracked wing spar Piper Cherokee 6 PA-32 Arrow Saratoga Lance
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- Опубліковано 16 вер 2024
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How many hours on the airframe ? was it a trainer ?
I found out it had 5300 total hours on the airframe. Never a trainer.
@@therealjimmysworld well thats not good. Looking at a 80 Toga with only 3500 hours so thats concerning. Good catch
It's a good thing to check ($350 for ours) and will say 100% of condition at the time.
@@1662porsche The 1980 Saratoga has a thicker spar which is why it’s not included in the AD. According to the registration info on FlightAware for this tail number, the plane in this video is a 1974 Cherokee 6 which does NOT have the beefy spar and IS part of the AD. The video title is misleading.
This IS with NAS close tolerance bolts, people. Look at the number of bolts in the attachment point of the wing. Now, compare this to the wing on a Bonanza, Debonair, Travelair or Baron. These wings are attached by FOUR bolts. Consider this the next time you look at upgrading to a Bonanza or Baron. Wing bolt inspections/ replacement are considered MANDATORY under a Beech mandatory service bulletin.
You know, when I used to inspect airframes or engines, I used to go at least one level above what was required. I believe I may have saved a few lives in my time. Good work Jimmy!
To make cracks visible easily, write over the area with a blue Sharpie, then wipe the area with a towel or Q-Tip dampened with solvent. The crack will become very visible. A light spray with solvent will make the blue bleed out of the crack. It’s my “poor man’s Dye-Chem”. I use carb cleaner or brake cleaner as the solvent.
So there I was in initial type rating school for a Westwind (small jet). After a break, a newly-minted chief pilot comes in looking REALLY dejected. He was helping his boss get a Westwind through it's initial inspection and the mechanics had just pulled out some inspection panels...they reported that sometime in the airplanes past someone had spilled tomato juice in the back and it seeped down (probably a bloody marry). The acid in the juice, left unchecked, corroded the main spar of the jet. It was not economically viable to repair. So pull the engines, avionics, anything else of value and tow out the fuselage and plant flowers in it because it's DONE. At least they found it before he bought it. But it was back to the drawing board to find another airplane. So glad to see that it is actually possible to replace a wing on a small airplane.
oufffff!!!! that hurt.... that's one expensive drink!
When I first saw your headline my thought was oh no! I was concerned with all the work you’ve already done to yours that you then discovered this.
That would have sucked! Thankfully, the spar was the first thing I checked before purchasing this... Every once in a while I do something smart... lol
Whenever I catch a major defect, I don't think, what a bummer! I think, wow! am I ever fortunate to have discovered that NOW before... the trip started, being out on the highway, being airborne, etc. I'm not thinking, no bueno. I'm thinking, muy bueno.
100% agree, better to find out now, and how much would you pay finding out the hard way?!
I went to Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University several years back. Their Piper Arrow IIIs had wing spar cracks. One of them was involved in a wing folding in which killed the student and DE. I flew that plane 6 times... Tragic and surprising that in the past Piper had an AD about it then it was rescinded. Now it has surfaced again
The student in the Piper Cherokee 106 was a friend of mine when we both served together in the navy I literally talked to him a few days before this happened he was explaining to me how to get my training paid for by the gi bill and yellow ribbon program. I could not believe the news when I heard it! So terrible heart breaking!
A quick search showed this plane was involved in a landing accident in the early 70’s. Collided with an automobile during landing rollout. Impact with wing, resulting in substantial damage. I wonder if this could be a contributing factor?
I didn't know that. That would make lots of sense.
This seems more likely. I think the AD covers 5000 factored service hours, which non-trainers have a hard time getting to. I’d like to see some failed pa32 wing spars that have no damage history. Generally experienced pilots take these long distances so not so much abuse per hour…
..and it looks like the FAA grabbed a pic of this specific crack for their recent SAIB against the PA28/32 spar. In spite of no pa32 accidents attributable to fatigue cracking, they are threatening a rather drastic spar life limit of ~15K hours. Since there’s been no indication the center wing box has an issue, perhaps mandated spar/wing replacement will keep these Pipers flying past 15k hours if it can be done economically. I hope the FAA relents - no one likes the idea of wings falling off, but specifically for the PA32, a fatal accident has a 99.999% probability of being related to something other than a spar fatigue crack. Is the FAA barking too hard up the wrong tree?
@@therealjimmysworld Piper SB978A wing spar inspection from 1999 has different classifications.This aircraft would be this classification: D. Extreme Usage, Class “C”.
This class applies to aircraft which have been damaged due to operations from extremely rough runways,
flight in extreme damaging turbulence or other accident/incident which required major repair or
replacement of wing(s), landing gear or engine mount.
That SB address the original Piper wing spar AD that was rescinded.
That is why cirrus and
Parachutes on light sport aircraft is so popular. If that wing goes, pull cord for Parachute and get to live another day!
parachutes are for quitters
@@therealjimmysworld when the wing falls off, which is the reason for the comment, you will be remembered as the hero who didnt quit!
If a wing fails I doubt a parachute would deploy properly. Cirrus is very specific with what you have to do before pulling the rocket.
@@ernies7174
Argentine Rans-7 Accident and BRS Parachute Save / BRSAerospace
ua-cam.com/video/jgfG2DfPB6I/v-deo.html
@@mauriceevans6546 stand corrected. But in most cases the chute is designed to keep the plane in a horizontal position. Pilots reaction time was spectacular there... almost like he had a hand on it waiting for something...
The Owner's wife: "Babe, are we having fun yet"?
The Owner: "Not yet, Babe" !!
hahaha, pretty much
Expensive hobby Jimmy!
yes..... yes it is...
So you can have one good wing and 1 bad wing. That would always leave me suspicious of the good one. How often will an inspection have to be performed?
I can understand that. I feel the same way. I don't remember the exact timing, but it's all in this time warp 5th dimension calculus equation in the AD.
It looks like the top hole you couldn't get a good shot on was at 2 o'clock high position, i think i saw the crack, Wowsers
Thanks for the info, good to know!
Couple things, seeing that crack gave me chills ( Crack Kills ) and second, way better without the music.
noted and thanks for the feedback!
I wonder if they're tracking how many planes have been found with the fatigue cracks due to the AD. FAA may get pretty anal, but I do appreciate it at times!
It's 20% so far... I've also heard of a couple more from this guy that did the checks. :/ ouch
@@therealjimmysworld Is that 20% of the airplanes that meet the 5th dimension calculous equation, or 20% of all planes checked. Even if they didn't meet the AD requirement? If I owned a Piper I think I'd have my plane checked even if it didn't meet the requirement.
Every place I've seen and everybody I've talked to says failure is around 4%. Failure rates vary depending on inspector. Which tells you some inspectors are probably failing more than they should. One Arrow failed, then the holes were cleaned with a nylon brush and it passed. There's a lot of failures caused by the removal of the bolts themselves. Then piper made an oops and shipped out 5000 of the wrong washers
20% of the ones I know of that have been checked... granted a very small sample size (5 planes for sure and heard of another one)
That could very well be true.
That's nasty. I hope owners take your heed and do this inspection on their own. I suggest letting the FAA know so they can track the data.
Good suggestion. I also heard that this plane was in an incident way back in the 80's and had wing damage, so I wonder if that could have something to do with it too.?
@@therealjimmysworld Having a history of wing damage could be a game changer. That should be in the logbook along with inspection and repair details. I've been a pilot/AME/A&P of 30+ years and thought I've seen it all. The fix for this aircraft, certification s going to be interesting.......and expensive. You have to also ask yourself what other thongs this aircraft might be hiding.
JB Weld
@@therealjimmysworld No mention of JB Weld in AC 43.13....LOL.
hahahaha, I'm sure it's in an addendum or service bulletin ;)
So how many of these Pipers have had wings come off? I am aware of the Embry Riddle arrow and another was a pipeline plane, I believe it was an archer? Two accidents out of tens of thousands of subject aircraft produced that have been flying for the last 60+ years? Maybe there are more that I’m unaware of.
So now that Cherokee’s wing has been found to be damaged and removed. Suffice it to say we will never know if that wing would have failed in flight. We can assume that because it had a crack it would have eventually broken, and maybe it would have, but when? Another 100 hours? Another 10,000 hours? Maybe never?
Has anyone actually looked at that Factor service hours formula? What scientific basis does the FAA have for assuming that a plane undergoing 100 hour inspections is 17 times more likely to have a wing spar failure? Where does the number 17 come from?
The only way we will truly know whether cracks in that wing spar actually correlate with wing separation accidents would be for some engineering company to create a stress rig, Put wings that fail inspection into it, and subject that wing to thousands of simulated landing cycles and other stressors and see if the spar breaks. Then of course the experiment would need a control, so we would have to perform the same experiment on wings that had a normal wing spar. Such an endeavor would be extremely expensive and I doubt we would ever see it.
One thing is certain, all it will take is for a wing to fall off an airplane that had previously passed it’s Eddy current inspection to turn this whole issue completely upside down.
That aircraft was involved in an accident about 45 years ago, and a wing was damaged. I'm wondering whether that was the initiator of the crack.
wasnt there an AD to look at the carry-through up behind the baggage compartment or under rear floor ? Looking for the same kind of cracks ? I think I remember it was where water could collect---
Hi ,Jimmy 👋 I had a hard landing in my piper cherokee 6 1973 the right landing gear broke I found a crack on the angle of the spar right next to landing gear attachment holes.
Question? Can I do a repair to the spar or I have to replace it ?
Thank you ....
Stupid question... does piper make new parts to repair these? Or are owners of older planes left to go find a salvage parts?
That's the question... From what I know, these spars are no longer being made... so, finding a wing will start to get interesting... time to buy up all the wings!
Is that the only piece holding the wing on and what caused that , to much torque or to many loops ?
Its seems to me that this would be an issue for Piper, why does the owner have foot the bill?
Slap some JBweld in there, hit it with a coat of zinc chromate primer, call it good.
that thing is broke as a joke!
Plane is coming right along...been watching since you bought that turd!
Thanks!! so close to the finish line!
A shame it took an accident to bring something such as a wing spar inspection to such a degree...imho.
Thanks for your comment, glad you enjoyed the video!
What was the factored service hours or total time?
I have the same question.
This A&P as well.
5300 total hours, not factored
@@therealjimmysworld appreciate it. Smacking a wingtip in 1972 has me a little less concerned. Always more to the story
@@ernies7174 I would be concerned about smacking a wing tip. Moments and leavers my friend. That little pressure at the tip transmits to larger loads at the root where the wing spar connects to the fuselage. I've found damaged on a 182 from this very thing.
I thought the Saratoga had a bigger spar and has no AD?
My understanding is they are both affected by the spar.
The post-1979 Saratoga has a thicker spar which is why it’s not included in the AD. According to the registration info on FlightAware for this tail number, the plane in this video is a 1974 Cherokee 6 which does NOT have the beefy spar and IS part of the AD. 1979 is a landmark year regarding the presence of the thicker spars in PA-32 and the Piper Dakota (PA-28-236)
Nice! thanks for sharing.
Can't they cut that off and weld a new bracket on? Seems simple enough? Or not?
That's what I told them. a little JB Weld and call it a day.
@@therealjimmysworld Funny Jimmy.
A good weld can be stronger (not JB Weld) than the material around it. Mine was a serious question. Is there some aviation reason this would not be acceptable?
That would be a reasonable approach in most steels (and some aluminum). This application is one of the non-weldable high strength alloys 2024-T3. Very high strength to weight ratio, but not weldable.
What Joe said.
bingo
Who did you use for the eddy current?
Call Phil at Plant City, FL airport. He can give you the info. He came around and did several at the same time. I just paid the bill... lol
I used to bench inner rear spars for the Airbus A320, took 2 men to flip it over.
Is this spar made of aluminum?
yes
@@therealjimmysworld Would titanium last longer? Thank you and rock on Mr. Jimmy!
@:50 you can clearly see crack #2
Thanks for the info!
Get that fuel tank out before it goes to salvage and anything else useful.
I was eyeing that fuel sending unit pretty hard.... hahahahaha it also has flap gap seals....
i cant figure out how the cherokee replaced the comanche the comanche is built much better
good question.
@@therealjimmysworld FLOOD in Lock Haven, Pennsylvania
Cracked wing spar on the PA-28/32 have unfortunately claimed lives, most notable is the crash of N106ER, an Embry-Riddle schooling aircraft.
It's almost like aviation is expensive.
$10K? He shouldn’t sweat it. Can't put a price on safety. Ever.
Agree completely. Safety first.
Yeah, at 8,000ft that repair seems cheap...
100%
geeez!!! not good!
Nooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
So I sign up for UA-cam Premium and this is all I get ???? 2 mins ???? One crack ???
that's wasted money... just like an airplane! hahahaha, so you're in the right spot!