Disclaimers: This is a live, unscripted rant. The game-play is extremely mid, but I was heavily focused on the rant. Also, yes, I've played plenty of other game modes in Overwatch 2. I have 200+ hours outside of Competitive.
@@localdad or at least explosive death animations or something. i use the explode command instead of killbind cause it's awesome just splattering and gibbing all over the place.
@@npc_variant_gstfs yeah tf2 uses something similiar to bash script for console/command line meaning i made a toggle to attack with my q key. it's great for a mouse that's slowly breaking.
one of the major points in favor of tf2 to make it a more casual experiance is mainly that its a 12v12 game, and that your free to join or quit in the middle of a match
It's honestly crazy to me that Blizzard gives penalties to someone for leaving an Unranked match a few too many times. Like, it's quick play! Imagine if TF2 gave you ANY kind of match making penalties
This is the main reason, I only play TF2 nowadays, cause it feels like most online multiplayer games right now, eventually just get turned into some competitive slop with ranks, elo and people that take the game way too seriously. Completely agree with everything you said in this video.
Worst part is a small subset of the fanbase like Uncle Dane (just one notable example) tried turning TF2 into literally that (competitive slop) and then we got the worst update in the game: Meet Your Match.
And I agree with everything you said as well!! I don't understand everyone's obsession with skill based match making. It ruins all of the fun that could've been had otherwise.
@@localdadElo makes games consistent, and in a casual setting that’s a bad idea. It makes games go stale. Am I gunna get rolled by 6 dudes in a discord with max casual badges? Am I gunna roll a team exclusively made up of Jose.Gonzalez.2009? Is it gunna be friendly? Who the fuck knows, that’s what makes it fun.
*COMPETITIVE SLOP* that's two words that describes multiplayer games today. When I log in tf2 the only thing in my head is to do something, click on people, seeing big number pops up, doing stupid things with demoknight or trolldier, or having dopamine rush in MvM that's all. But any other games with ranked system always got me thinking about my rank and fearing that numbers dropping upon losing, creates pressure and generally making the fun factor inexistent. You were having fun and beating people (optional) in video games. Nowadays ranking display is everything, inflating ego and seeking recognizement. I'm always desperate playing those games, blame people upon losing, getting frustrated and ends up with anger instead of relieve. I used to escape from ambitious assholes in real world by playing games, now ambitious assholes are in my games. That's all, at least what's in my head. Idk about people tho.
The key word here, is agency. In Overwatch, the overall outcome of a match is outside the control of any individual player, all your effort and skill can be for nothing if the rest of your team doesn’t pull their weight or just doesn’t have the same plan as you. In TF2, despite having double the lobby size, 1 or 2 really good players can completely alter the gamestate through sheer skill. Even in competitive lobbies where the meta is more strict, this can also happen, often without warning. It feels incredibly powerful to know that YOU, were able to completely obliterate this game. The sheer fact that it’s possible keeps you motivated and makes you feel in control. This and the higher player count is also why it’s less of a bother to have some players being stupid. While it can still be an issue, the fact that only a few players can do so much gives the lesser players room to mess around. You have much more agency over situations in this game, you are in control.
Yeah tf2 has stuff 12v12, which means you can afford some players who are not doing good. As long as there are 2 or 3 players picking up the slack, your team is good and no one is complaining that much.
The best part about TF2 in this case is that, in essence, there's no real 'hard counter' like in Overwatch. Except for stuff like a Scout vs. a Level 3 Sentry, and even then the scout can just go on the flank. Any class can just dominate a lobby. Like an engie can carry a team even with spies on the enemy team. But in TF2, you can win against any class as your class if you're skilled enough. Not to mention, you don't HAVE to cooperate with your team in TF2. There are 12 players, and some classes and playstyle are way better off not being in the main choke. You can goof around and still have a great time. But in Overwatch it's a lot more about always playing to win at all costs. As an aside on Competitive TF2 - Community Centered Competitive TF2 (which is the standard because Valve doesn't support it) is a lot less toxic because its community ran, so people are alot less tolerant of toxic people and are just there to have fun as well. I won't get into the nitty-gritty of Competitive, but you can do silly stuff in matches and games and still absolutely win if you can play around your strategies.
Gonna have to disagree with you on this. The Mad Cap HARD COUNTERS every melee specialist cause he IS the Melee Specialist. He can hit like normal with M1 and Heavy attack (with m2) that'll extra damage and bleed and if you hit the enemy in the same region (by aiming your crosshair), you can double the damage and the bleed timer, making it harder for demoknights, spy and heavy with the buffalo steak. And he gets a BLOCK option that reduces range damage by 20% but melee damage negation is double of that and the blocking region is exactly 180 degrees and you may have reduced movement speed by 70% but your turn speed is still the same, so you can literally make spy useless now by just holding m3 and wait until they killbind out of embarrassment OR you can use the Parry option (you can bind it to any key) which will deal a fixed 50% of the target's overall hp when a melee attack is coming your way. And to add further onto the list, he has a fixed 150hp, 133% base movement speed and silent sounds so NO ONE can hear you breaking your kneecaps when jumping too high(spy can only do it when he's cloaked) and he can see ALL of his enemies health like spy, making it easier to pick your fights and his melee has barely any cooldown during attacks except for the Focus meter which will deteriorate by 17% after each attack and he's vulnerable when at 0% cause melee is his only option but he also can't block, parry and have decreased base movement speed but it's practically impossible to catch a Mad Cap player like that out in the open (unless they're new to the game)
@@xecksoffender942 Yeah, why do competetive players not play the obviously meta melee character? its such wasted potential, even highlander excludes him probably due to balancing reasons
Brudda. ALL sentries, even minis HARD counter Scout. Also most proper(aka more than 10 hours on him) engies will put sentries in a spot to hard counter Scout. But wait *there's more* Scout isn't even the class that's most hard countered by Engy, Scout has shortstop and pistols which are... Not effective at all if Engy heals sentry but at least it's something... PYRO HAS *NOTHING* He has DF that has barely more range then stock flames which isn't even enough to take out mini without taking dmg. He has shotgun that has huge bullet spread fall off in the distance, and he has flared which are slow to reload, do bad dmg and can't crit or burn sentry, aka Pyro is even more cooked by Engy. But wait, *there's more* if you consider subclasses or playstyles as fair comparison then Engy is even worse! His sentries also HARD counter Demoknight and Trolldier! Two of the most popular subclasses, can't have fun at all if bloody Engy decides to appear on enemy team... So yeah, TF2 still better than OW cuz it only has 1-2 hard countering classes(second one being Sniper who technically can hard counter all other classes) but we sadly do have fun ruined classes that will force you to switch or least you get to have unfun match trying to fight self healing shooting wall...
Even the counters in TF2 are a lot more evenly matched. Like for your example of scout vs level 3, sentries were intentionally designed with mechanics that would allow them to be easily taken down if not properly defended by the engineer and his team, any class in the game can easily just peek around a corner and whittle it down over a few seconds. Scout is actually better at this than most other classes because of his high movement speed. Another example is pyro being a counter to spy. Pyro's have a natural advantage over spies with their great short range damage and their afterburn staying on cloaked spies. However the spy player can still outplay the pyro with things like trickstabs or deal with them by gunning them down at mid range. (Not to mention the spy-cicle acting as a good escape option.)
For more info on these aspects of TF2's game design, I would refer you to SolarLight's video "TF2's Sentry Guns are Stupid" and Uncle Dane's video "Teamwork is an Illusion."
Ever since I saw Uncle Dane’s video on fake teamwork I realised the problem with games like Overwatch and my most played game, League. The experience has transformed to focus so much on the team aspect that the individual impact becomes significantly reduced to the point you can go on long streaks of games where you feel like you’re doing nothing in a clockwork machine that is teamwork. It is like assembly line workers, sure it’s effective to pump out products but is the individual worker who only knows how to put one screw into one hole going to be satisfied with their work by the end of a ten year career?
The only time I ever had a TF2-Like moment in OW was when I got to witness a Friendly Enemy Torb who then 1v1ed our Torb in a hammer battle (our Torb was in for the friendly funny interaction, props to him). Wish more people had that mentality on Quickplay over the "Sweaty tryhard" one. It's not Comp for Christ sake.
It definitely does! And, personally, I love that freedom. I have my moments where I want to be a serious try-hard and sweat my ass off, but the majority of the time I'm just looking to have fun. So, TF2 is my home!
The overwatch community is like those people who go into these beautiful Victorian houses and “improve” them by copy and pasting the same generic interiors, they made something that was designed for greatness, but their attitude just tore out everything that made it good.
I also just realised just now. Since OW and League and other competitive teamwork shooters have put so much focus on the team working, individual impact isn’t what you do right, it’s how little you fuck up, so if you wanna win then Everyone has to work together, but it takes one person to not want to work together for you to lose, no re no room for doubt.
You're completely right about the community being a major reason why playing overwatch is so unfun. It got to the point where i just muted voice and text chat, and while I DID have more fun after that, that shouldn't be something that's necessary to casually play. I also noticed that after playing overwatch for too long, that competitive mindset rubbed off on me, and I expressed that in other games. It's pretty miserable, so I just stopped playing entirely.
It's mainly, because overwatch was made to be a semi casual hero shooter, but then was forced into the competitive esport mould, because that was trendy back in 2016, tf2 almost suffered the same fate with meat your match, but people just didn't give a shit about competitive to the point, where it went nowhere. Overwatch doubled, tripled and quadrupled down on it even though it never worked in the first place and after goats became a thing, after orisa, doomfist were a thing, just gave up, made the game role queue and hoped people would grind ladder for the rest of eternity for idk, gold weapon skins or something.
@@Audio_noodle TF2 basically did suffer the same fate because the vast majority of its current problems started with Meet Your Match :( Thankfully the community is still... better, though not as great as it used to be.
This is legitimately what got me into tf2. You can just show up, be bad, and nobody will call you on it. I wanted to learn rocket jumping the other day so I hopped on 2fort and tried to launch myself onto the top of the bridge for like an hour. I kept fucking up, but hey! It was fine! A couple of scouts and engies were having a party up there, nobody cared.
What you just highlighted through your story is one of the most beautiful parts of TF2. It accepts any skill level, any playstyle, and any plan. You are free to do as you please without being reprimanded for it. It's amazing!!
Between the competitive air, and the moba treatment, the player count is another big contributor or result of both. - If you have 8 players per team, you get more leeway to mess around without impacting scoring too badly. - The more numbers you have, like 12, more room is given to passively explore options, your death is more forgiving on the team, and you could probably yoink someone just as distracted. - But the less you have, like 4, scoring becomes more reliant on big team clashes more than loners. If you’re alone or with a buddy and you encounter a cluster of 4, you two may not live. The difference between Team Fortress 2 and OW gameplay is where the bigger spread of enemies and allies are. You put 1 of 12 at enemy spawn, _maybe_ someone bats an eye, and 11v12 isn’t a big difference. You put 1 of 6 at enemy spawn before a 5v6, they either get noticed or don’t contribute. This way, OW could have never competed with TF2 as a “fun and fast-paced class shooter,” because of how relaxed and community-oriented it is(n’t). OW is more of a MOBA prioritizing resource management (HP and Ults) that intrinsically ropes you with the team.
This is the most genuine video I've ever seen, it's just a guy playing TF2 and being happy, and he just speaks from the heart about why Overwatch 2 is a good game but because of how Tryhard the community is, it became more a job than a video game.
Thank you to the moon and back for this comment. I truly appreciate it. I wasn't sure how this video would be perceived, but I'm glad to know it resonated with someone! 😄
I remember only having fun on overwatch when it first came out and when find a group came out and you could group up and get comp lobbies. Winning used to be so fucking amazing on overwatch with combos and shit and teamwork. And now its just play and suffer and if you win its like jesus i am stressed.
For real!!! Even when I manage to go on a massive win-streak, I don't feel happy about it. I'm not having fun during it. I'm simply stressed out from having to try so hard and endure so many different people's complaints.
Can't even have fun with comms in overwatch 2 (last time i checked, blizzard spies on you when using your mic), we can't have fun stuff like "Doctor Se>< tape" (which is one youtube) cause blizzard deems that inappropriate
Seriously!!!!!!!! That's something I didn't talk about in the video, but that's such a huge point. I've been chat banned and account banned (on my main acc) many times. Often times I didn't even understand why. However, upon watching my recordings of the last few matches I played before getting all of those bans - I said a couple of curse words. Namely: Shit and Fuck. Blizzard really likes to enforce this whole "Toxic Positivity" crap on their player base and it is absurd. I'm a grown ass man playing a stressful, competitive shooter. Of course some gamer words are going to come out!
@@localdad Yeah. Everyone hated that stupid friggin rule because I'm pretty sure only NOW are they apparently enforcing it. Heck characters swear in-game.
Main problem i think is that even in tf2 if you're playing like pyro or something and you need to counter a sentry, you quick switch to something that can deal with it, and then switch back. In overwatch, the ultimate meter prevents you from doing that too often since you're wasting it if you try to switch to it and back
1:22 My issue with the counter swap meta is that your always on the back foot for making the right call. This is mainly due to how ults work is where you really don't get to carry charge over to the new character. To make a comparison to TF2, imagine if everyone had an ubercharge-like meter they had to build but changing classes reset the meter. "Wow the enemy team is like half pyros but do I really wanna give up my Spy ult and the class im good at just to be productive?"
tf2: you can choose which maps you want to queue into and which character you want to play once you're in. if the server is bad for one reason or another or you just aren't feeling the map you got, you can just leave and requeue, without even leaving the current match. overwatch: we force you to pick the right characters beforehand so we can make sure everyone is playing the game correctly before putting the lobby together with role queue. you cannot choose your maps or gamemodes. if you leave the match; banned. someone being toxic or just not having fun or you got a map you dont like? tough it out. go afk for 20 seconds? banned.
I've put a bunch of hours into quick play, but it always ends up feeling like a warm-up match for competitive rather than a silly and laid back experience 😅
@@localdad really depends how you approach it and how much time you have in the game. because after a bunch of hours in the game, it turns out to be just as funny and goofy as tf2 as long as you are the one initiating the funnies. i cannot tell you how many times ive emoted during my games after getting a single frag on some guy i dont like or just showing off winton ow while waitng for something to happen. like go out there, play a funny character you like, get one kill or two, emote immediately. or better yet, try getting a potg in which you tbag on the "well played" dialogue bubble and get a 4k or something. like the good ol' days of 9/1- i mean ow1 season 1. when you think less about what you are supposed to do and do what you want to do, the game becomes funnier for everyone sept the tryhards in qp.
@@spoodernike Funniest moment I ever had back in OW1, the enemy Widow was way back trying to get picks. I sneaked up on her as Winston, dropped my shield bubble around her, blocking a shot. She unscoped then turned to look at me, then I did the emote where Winston acts like a wild ape. She just typed "lmao winston." Then my team lost because were on last point. Worth not helping my team defend last just for that moment.
@@spoodernike Yeah but good luck with that when your teammates yell at you for not taking the game seriously or typing something like "trash tank gg". I play tank so that doesn't do it for me. Also tank kinda sucks to play as.
doom is like spy or sniper, if the spy or sniper is having fun, no one is having fun, though i do agree that doom is a very mechanical hero that is fun in most cases, which is why i usually just play doom when i get tank, or rein, jq or ram, because they are also mega fun.
This could be applied to team comps, you would be yelled at if you didn’t go with the entire team comp. It’s unranked if I wanna play a class I want, then I will play it simple as.
I wholeheartedly agree that this is what video games are made for, too many games in the modern landscape focus on competitive play rather than leaving room for games to have fun silly moments, that's why I've come back to TF2 in the last week. This game just has so many fun moments that remind me what it's like to play a game and just have fun not caring whether I win or lose.
This was an issue even back in the first game. Heroes like Winston had no ways to deal with a Bastion because of his tankiness, his self healing, and how fast he could mow down others. Overwatch in general has horrible balancing issues in general because some heroes are completely obsolete while others have absolutely broken abilities (ult or regular abilities) leaving those heroes as obsolete. Example; Moira is (or was, I’m not sure about current Moira status) a meta dominant healer due to her high healing output and ult that could both heal and deal damage. Mercy, who was meant to be the defacto medic, got shafted completely since her kit was basically just TF2’s medic but with actual wings. She couldn’t give her team a speed boost like Lucio, weaken enemies like Zenyatta, or hell even just be hybrid between DPS and Healing like Brigette could. She was basically a vanilla Cleric with only healing spells and a slight damage buff that let’s be real, didn’t give enough edge for team wipes.
My problem with tf2 was whenever I wanted to try it, it seem to put me in lobbies where people would get pissed if I didn’t follow every rule of theirs. Or when I played medic it was constant yelling at me MEDIC!!!!!
My quality of life improved massively once I realised that playing competetive games is just sysyphus work unless you are top 0.01% When you get better, the enemies get better so I didnt feel any sense of acomplishment and trying to play more casually is harder the higher rank you have.
That's a very valid point that I hadn't really thought about. There truly is no sense of accomplishment when you're playing skill based match making. It just sucks the fun out of it and leaves you feeling empty. The only thing that really keeps you going is seeing your rank increase/decrease and the occasional gold weapon.
@@localdad And there are even more issues with competetive games for examples: I quit csgo first because as I mentioned I didnt feel the sense of acomplishment and if I wanted to win I had focus and learn about strats, nade lineups etc. That I got overwhelmed and the feeling of winning was outweighted by the constant stress I was in. Then I moved on to Apex legends. It was fun at first but today the matchmaking system is so broken that I cant win without really sweating at the lowest rank incthe game. I have 800 hours rn and before i could comfirtably reach gold, the all of the modes are as broken as that but mixtape is just 3rd party simulator and they removed arenas which were the most casual mode since they were 3v3 quite short matches so you didnt have to loot for 10 minutes and then worry about dying. No looting, no 3rd parties basically really fun. After that I started playing the finals. The open beta was awesome. Everyone was using diffrent loadouts,everyone was experimenting and having fun, some things were annoying but tolerable I had insane win/loose ratio back then, same at the first days of the realase. But after like a week after release the op meta has developed and if you dont have a specific loadout with some small wariations and team comp and dont communicate with your teammates you will loose. No fun allowed I played Rainbow six siege a bit but quit due to toxicity and Overwatch due to reasons you and I mentioned above I have come to conclusion that all competetive games that focus on winning the game instead having a good time will be flooded with no-life sweats and ofc cheaters so they are simply not worth playing Now i play Deep Rock Galactic, TF2 and some singleplayer games I get for free from epic game store.
I called out the issue with rigid inflexible class designations as a fundamental flaw with OW’s design back when OW1 was first released and ever since then it’s like most people dance around the issue. GOATs being so strong and counter swapping being so strong ain’t going to be fixed by going from 5v5 to 6v6 or vis versa. It’s the same issue that exists in MMOs as a fundamental flaw; there is going to be a class role that is a work horse that is unfun to play and that almost always falls to being a heal bot or a tank that does nothing but soak damage because, fundamentally, those aren’t exciting to play. TF2 got around the issue of a tank class by having the ubercharge which theoretically lets *any* of the classes be a tank to break or hold defenses. In a FPS the class/heroes that are in a inflexible tank role to basically be living targets for other players to shoot are never going to be fun to play until the reach a buffed point where it becomes unfun to be the ones shooting at them because then you have a DPS class that basically just wails on one or two guys and nothing else the entire match as the only meaningful choice they can make.
When I saw they limited everyone to only play one of each hero in quick play I knew the game would end up being somewhere I didn’t like. Wo and behold the game is forced into 1 tank 2 dps and 2 supports with no room for silliness
Overwatch is New York and TF2 is a small town in terms of community. Both games have their fun moments, but only once in a blue moon do I see anything nasty on TF2 (and it’s from MvM of course), where it’s essentially every session I have in OW. I still have fun when I lose in TF2, but Overwatch emphasizes winning and that your fun feels tied to other players doing their job. I played Quickplay trying out Sombra and 2 of my teammates gave up after the first minute, started their typing marathons while idling or jumping off the map until the whole server just sat at final point in unison agreeing the match is busted: all because I picked a character in Unranked. Meanwhile, I played PASStime as Heavy and an enemy Pyro offered Rock Paper Scissors in the middle of a fight and I accepted their challenge. A Demoman I was unaware of dominating started to shoot stickies at me, and the Pyro and I both turned to him like he was ruining something, and even that Demoman in pursuit of revenge stopped firing to let me RPS (before killing me anyway). Nobody typed a novel in chat, it was just spontaneous fun and taken on the chin. Then I re-dominated the Demo again naturally. The cultures of both games are different, and it’s like stepping through another world playing either of them. OW would and has imploded from update droughts (see OW1 after OW2’s announcement), but TF2’s just a casual masterpiece sitting on the shelf you can always play for a good time, especially now after the bot genocide. I’d probably get OW chat banned for even using the word “genocide” no matter the context.
Idk man, maybe Rein is just the everything counter, but either i set up my shield, my team fires from behind that shield and we either win or nearly win, or i set up my shield, my entire team flanks, and we win again beacuse the enemy either recognizes the threat i pose and shoots the shield and not my teammates or shoots my teammates and eats two direct fire strikes.
If TF2 was 6v6, there would also be a counter-based picks and heavy emphasis on the meta. The issue is that it's so little players on each team that if one player doesn't give 100%, there is a very high likelihood of losing. I'm worried about how deadlock will play for this exact reason. We don't need more tightly-knit teamwork based shooters where you have to stick with the team and one player deviating or not playing optimally can make you lose.
I think the counter pick situation in pverwatch is truely shitty right now, because 5v5 with a tank makes it easier to counter pick rather than Two tanks. In overwatch 2, the idea of being an off tank is dead, as there is only one tank to take responsibility
I've basically only played Arcade Mode on Overwatch. Mistery Heroes was a lot of fun and playing FFA as Lucio, Zarya or Ana was sweaty af, but also really fun. Unfortunately they dropped support for windows 7 so I didn't move to Overwatch 2. Anyway, it did said a lot to me that the most fun I had in Overwatch was only possible thanks to alternative game modes, and any time I tried playing quick play or competitive I just felt awful.
I’ve shared your opinion on the state of these two games for quite some time, and to add to what you’ve said I think that one of the beautiful things about TF2’s loadout formula is how much individual expression people can have in the individual classes. Mixing and matching loadouts and investing in trackers and pretty unique cosmetics loadouts for your favorite class is hugely expressive in a way that swapping full heroes for the greater good of the team can’t achieve. What I mean is, TF2 players, how many of you have online friends you can instantly recognize at a glance by their loadout (cosmetic and weapons)? That, coupled with the high and branching skill ceilings of all 9 classes is what I think keeps so many players around for literally thousands of hours. Within the 13 years I’ve been playing TF2, the classes have felt more like catalysts for the players’ real personalities, starkly contrasting the more cookie-cutter nature (which has its own advantages) of Overwatch heroes and their sacrificial role to the almighty composition meta.
It's not just a problem with Overwatch. It's a problem with class-based multiplayer video game in general. I was an avid player of Mobile Legends, a mobile MOBA game, and the way the game is designed is atrocious. It is steeped in meta and counter-pick. I rarely get to play my favourite champion because the meta rarely favour them, and everytime I pick up a new main they are nerfed because they counter the new fangled champion that the game want to push on the player. It sucks man. Now I've quit that game it's 1000% more peaceful.
I’ve played casual tf2, I’ve played 6v6 scrims tf2, I’ve played highlander tf2, I’ve played quickplay Overwatch, I’ve played solo rank Overwatch, I’ve played Overwatch scrims, heck, I’ll say I’ve even played League of Legends too. I’ll just say that all of these have different pros and cons, some are better when you want to sweat, some are better when you want to chill. tf2 is more casual cuz it’s 12v12, try go and play spy in 6v6 tf2 and you’ll get sent to the shadow realm and called slurs in voice chat. If overwatch has 12v12 like tf2 then it will be just as casual.
Despite only having 9 classes, TF2 makes it feel like there are way more than that thanks to being able to switch weapons and change loadouts. There are also very few hard counters. Even when you do run into one, you can usually still mess around and do your thing on another part of the map or target a different player. This means that you can play any character any time. In OW, there are plenty of times I can’t play my favorite character(s) because of our team comp, the enemy’s team comp, map, current situation, whatever. And I can’t change that character’s abilities to adapt to what’s going on. Also, expecting coordinated team actions (pushing, defending, support, etc) from randoms is going to give you a lot of headaches. Thankfully, in TF2, casual usually doesn’t really care if you can’t do those things. You can if you want, but no one’s gonna complain if you don’t.
Lmao just turn OW voice chat off, the voices aren't real if you can't heal them. Real game design talk though, OW Quickplay and TF2 casual are completely different formats. OW Quickplay is just comp, but quick (less rounds) and no ranks. There is a real lack of distinction between the formats. TF2 casual is 12v12 and TF2 comp is 6v6, outrageous difference in weapon and playstyle viabilities (especially when comp is just 5cp). TF2 casual's format endorses silliness because there is very little weight to minor interactions (getting a frag in 12v12 means so much less in 6v6). OW quickplay is 5v5, and worse than that, is role format. So killing a support halves the healing of the team, as well as a 20% team reduction. TF2 gives a range of minor to major weight, if you go on a six killstreak you won the fight yourself, OW cannot have that due to team sizes. Another major weakness about OW that I don't see anyone talk about is that OW doesn't do ammo. Every character has an infinite reserve. This has extreme ramifications where spam is free. The only limit of spam is the map, and you cannot have a purely open map because then snipers just win (since everyone "has" to have mobility (why does a sniper need a grappling hook??? or wall climb??? or the fucking force-a-nature???)). No matter how the map is designed, spam is optimal, chokepoints are painful, and tanks are required. This also means that maps have less tools to work with to make positions powerful. The "counter-pick" makes no fucking sense for what the game is trying to be. What is the point of having a character for every playstyle if certain playstyles just lose to others? Isn't the point of classes/heroes to make it so that having a certain playstyle doesn't invalidate you? OG TF made classes as an evolution of Quake deathmatch so that players with different priorities can have fun (wanna just frag? soldier. wanna control the map? engi. have 300 ping? pyro.) So when you take the whole point of character variation, but nullify it because you cannot balance for shit (it's an impossible task anyway) you have just made a mistake. In conclusion, OW wanted to be a competitive 6v6 shooter that anyone could play, TF2 wanted to be fun with the boys on a Thursday.
I tried playing Overwatch 2 for about a month towards the start of last year, and while I did find the game itself fun I hated the whole thing around counterpicking. Both because I didn't know the counters to my own or the enemies heroes, and because I just wanted to play the characters I found cool (which were unfortunately at the time Junker Queen and Doomfist mostly), so being pressured to counterpick and all that just got tiring, even in quickplay. I literally played a single ranked match, got absolutely flamed by my teammates for not picking the optimal heroes (even though I was doing decently well), uninstalled the game, and never returned.
The matchmaking In overwatch is also very annoying. 3 out of 5 games I have are my team being fresh installs or people who just don't know what they are doing while the enemy team is either a 5 stack or just randoms that are competent and it leads to my team being rolled. Then the opposite happens where next game my team does the rolling. It got to the point where I don't like winning games because I just know the next match will be a shit show.
One thing i do like about tf2 is how they do match ups and counters. Thr counters and match ups are mostly soft-counters. Sure there are hard counter spy vs pyro and engineer vs scout, but even then spy has some things to deal with pyro and scout can take down egineer who in down time. Also while yes there times where game is nudging to play other class, as in someone needs to be medic in offensive or a engineer in defense, however your team is not completely screw if don't have those classes in your team. Sure tf2 match up and counter system isn't prefect(looking at you sniper match ups) but for the future of class bases games, it should follow the soft counters model
When dad (trademark) first mentioned swapmeta in this vid, the first thing that I thought of was the difference between switching Heroes and switchinf loadouts: It’s the fundamental playstyle. When you pick a loadout, you are either more specialized for something or are choosing stats that boost a certain aspect. What doesn’t change is your class’s fundamental styles; Heavy is the slow sustaining fire, Scout is the agile CQC fighter, Soldier will always have projectiles, and Engineer is still primarily a builder. When you switch to a new Hero in OW, you *cannot* adjust anything about their gameplay except your keybinds, while at the whim of whatever Blizzard Activision felt like giving you that day. To switch a Hero isn’t like changing a stat, or getting a new tool; You’re forced to change your entire strategy because someone else picked another strategy that is mildly inconvenient or crippling to you specifically (and maybe three of your allies, like your singular Tank). They tried to make the gameplay variety compete with TF2, but in that quantity, they have no room for flexibility.
@@palecaptainwolfkayls8499 Yes, exactly!!! Thank you!! If Overwatch heroes had more flexibility to them, they would be so much more fun to play! But, as it stands, there is little to no nuance about each and every one of them. You can master a character in a week or less due to how one dimensional they are. (Minus a few special cases). Comparatively, I've put thousands of hours on Soldier and Spy - Yet I still haven't mastered them.
Ya wilding for thinking Engy Vs Scout matchup isn't that bad. Let me tell you HOW bad it is, even if you take shortstop, best primary Scout has for sniping a sentry, if Engy just keeps healing the sentry, you'll *never* destroy his sentry... And that's not even the worst matchup, Engy Vs Pyro is even worse, cause Pyro has virtually no good long range options, flares are too weak and too slow reloading, shotguns have bullet spread and DF is only very slightly longer range then stock flames and that's still not long enough to safely destroy a mini. But yeah besides Engy and Sniper, TF2 matchups are excellent! My favourite is Soldier Vs Pyro, no matter what class I am in this scenario it's always fun having mind games Vs Soldier or Pyro and then defeating them 😊
@@danielsurvivor1372 yeah pyro vs engineer would be a better example of a hard counter(that and demokinght). Even then pyro has air blasting rockets and dragon fury to take down sentries. Plus pyro is one the better uber candidates. Also pyro vs solider is definitely a fun match, even if some of it can be the 2 staring at each other to make the first move.
I took *one* look at OW2's art direction redesigning old characters, and I knew I made the right choice leaving during the Blitzchung fiasco. The only thing I missed was those custom games in OW1, but I guess that doesn't matter when the first one is literally unplayable. I was so appalled at the new DVa suit that I thought, "It's like Bobby Kotick himself wanted to make her as fugly as his soul". At the end of it all, I should have never left TF2.
I get the feeling I play tank. Also the outcomes are more consistent because the skill level is less varied. You might have more fun if you played something like quickplay or arcade where the stakes are lower. I also enjoy tf2 more than overwatch but that’s more because I disagree with the fundamentals of the game. I prefer tf2’s focus on burst fire filled 1 v 1’s and skirmishes over overwatch’s near constant teamfight and deathballing tracking bonanza. Honestly the only gun’s I have fun shooting in that game are Cassidy’s revolver, Sojourn’s fuck you button, and Doomfist’s little baby arm gun.
i think another thing that restricts overwatch is blizzard almost never pushing for silly stuff while tf2 has always been silly and valve (when they cared) pushed both serious and silly play that helped nurture a community of (mostly) fun players while overwatch coms and all that feel, as you said restrictive and sometimes straight toxic
Man if this is where overwatch is right now, i'm glad I left after they announced OW2. When I played OW1 even in comp I chose characters I liked and we have some fun matches with creative ways to do ultimate. I used to go dva and boost upwards then ultimate it; then when I land I run around the spot like and idiot dodging attacks and then run; so they'd follow me into the blast the moment it landed :D Or when I was reinhardt I dashed into a dva about to explode and took both of them off the edge of the map to save the team. Good times. We all laughed about the suicidal rein :D Seems those days are gone over there and tbh I'm glad I didn't buy OW2; it seems more trouble than it's worth.
Those were definitely the golden days, my friends. I also remember the golden days, it was so much fun while it lasted. At this point though, as it stands, you're not missing out anything. In fact, you're saving yourself the stress and hassle of dealing with that community lol
I think TF2 works because of the numbers despite. 12 players on each team means that not all of them even need to be playing optimally. It’s fine if 2 players go off and have a silly little adventure doing an off meta build or just being friendly because the game is likely still moving because of the players that aren’t doing that. This stops functioning at lower numbers and when you take it seriously, which is why competitive TF2 didn’t really take off and has to ban a lot of items. Not to mention low skill players have many options to contribute to their team while not ruining the fun for others. Like a dogshit player can still be useful if they have a solid sentry nest running or just play medic. The fact that overwatch tried to be competitive makes it’s not fun along with the 5v5 thing. You really feel it when one person is lacking or goofing off, especially if that one person is playing tank or support. But there is the mythical funny moments in overwatch. My favorite being rein duels. That perfect match where we both forget about the objective, leave the DPS and support players and we live with honor, and die with glory.
0:12 That's not entirely true though... There's one core class of TF2 that HARD counters TWO other core classes(and tons of subclasses/playstyles) and you have near zero or no counterplay. I'm talking about Engineer or specifically his sentry that literally hard counters Scout and especially Pyro. I say especially Pyro because *i g u e s s* scout has shortstop and pistols, but lemme tell ya, if engy even semi actively healing his sentry ya ain't removing it! What's worse is that due to being a hitscan you can't even kill engy accidentally like how explosive classes can. Pyro has an even bigger issue dealing with Engy, since his long range options are even weaker than shortstop, he either had Dragon Fury which is very slightly longer range than regular flames. He has shotgun that has huge spread long or even mid range and he has flares that are too slow, do too low dmg and reload slow. Aka if Engineer is present on enemy team with a sentry protecting the objective or vital routes, you HAVE to either switch to Demo(he's the only semi reliable sentry destroyer since Soldier has less explosives and weaker ones and Spy just gets bodied by Engy if Engy is near sentry) Also there's Sniper too which can be considered a hard counter to Heavy, sure heavy can take fists of steel and eat dalocohs bar but Sniper can still do and usually can still kill heavy. Still though, only having 1-2 hard countering classes in TF2 IS why TF2 is so amazing. I just wish Sniper would get nerfed and Engy didn't exist and TF2 would be perfect 2:01 Only work out IF enemy doesn't have an engineer with sentry. Heck you might even be able to kill heavy with frying pan but if the enemy just has o n e mini, or full sentry, you're wacky adventure ruined
Pyro can reflect turret's rockets at engie, it does enough damage to OHK. Even if it doesn't kill him, he will consider moving to dispencer or healthpack. Also, you can kill engie with flare or detonator, the latter is even better at forcing him to reposition, because the only alternative is to die to mini-crits. Engie can completely counter all of this by having rescue ranger, but that makes him vulnerable to spies and everyone else really, because less damage and less ammo. And on top of that the turret becomes more vulnerable to team pushes when engie is far away from it, again because of low ammo.
I've seen more silly moments with the enemy like you had with your friendly sniper and the red scout in fucking Valorant than Overwatch despite it also being much more interesting as a competitive game than OW
Overwatch would be an infinitely better game if they deleted half the cast. Think about it, 90% of the community hates like half the cast. Symmetra, sombra, mei, orisa, pharah, moira, the list goes on and on. Theres almost nothing in tf2 that players actively hate other than sniper, the vaccinator, and the wrangler. And even in those, sniper and the vaccinator have at least some counterplay. Not a whole lot but some. As you say, if your favorite character is someone like reaper or junkrat, and the opponent plays pharah, youre cooked. Gg, swap characters, no fun allowed.
Yeah, I completely agree. I constantly hear the OW Community complaining about the cast of heroes. It's a damn shame that Blizzard doesn't actually listen to their community. Instead they ignore them and add more slop to the mix. Don't even get me started on Mauga. 😅
I picked up overwatch 2 when it came out as free to play and never played ow1 so had to go through challenges to unlock all the heroes and constantly got insulted for not playing optimally with a hero I literally just unlocked in CASUAL never played long enough to unlock all heroes and let alone play comp
Personally, I don't counter swap in ow unless I cant make it work. So many people get hard stuck at a rank and just never learn to adapt. The best way to improve is to learn how to outplay the counters.
I can't remember who talked about this before - I think it might've been _STAR? - but yeah, you can blame the community, but it honestly still comes back to the game for designing itself in a way that incentivizes this behavior. And it's like...from the very beginning - Overwatch 1 - the game was designed to have classes with basically zero skill expression. With Soldier, you have all kinds of trick jumps you can pull off if you've mastered rocket jumping. With Pharah, you press a button and you're in the air. Genji has tech? Not anymore he fucking doesn't. And each character is designed with one specific playstyle in mind. A single gameplan. It's not like TF2 where you can have a bombing Soldier or a pocket Soldier, a flanking Pyro or a bodyguard Pyro - if you play Junk, you might get a cool mine throw, but you're GONNA be spamming nades the majority of the game. There's no alternative loadouts, only entirely new characters. This doesn't just flatten skill expression - it creates the whole toxic counterpick mentality in OW. TF2 has counters, but for the vast majority of them there still isn't a decisive winner - just disadvantage. And even then, you can often avoid your worst matchups with good positioning and leave them to your team. Paladins of all games actually trounces OW on all these points. If only it was a good game...
Also hot take? If you have a COMPETITIVE game mode, there should be no such thing as fucking Solo Queue. You should have lobbies, invites, a place to coordinate before going into a match - "competitive" in the majority of multiplayer games has so little to do with your own skill and ability to coordinate, so much as it is your ability to wrangle randoms each game into something *resembling* a team and hope you rolled lucky with the ones you got. You can't build a rapport with your team because you disband every game. Have some kind of fucking clan system you gotta be in to play comp. It would be awkward and a bit more difficult to make groups, but at least you could call it an actual fucking competitive team game when you play.
Call of duty would be less fun if you had to switch a class everytime you got killed by a certian class. Imagine if cod players "counterswapped" every time they die??
Tf2 says "What can you do for yourself? Maybe it can help the team" Overwatch says "What can you do for your team? Maybe itll help yourself" If overwatch keeps makes team gameplay not fun... its not helping you. In comparison TF2 already lets you have fun by yourself. Idk if overwatch needs to be less of a team game or just needs 6v6 back. But theres a problem
The format does matter, no-one plays competitive tf2. People will complain about missing a medic in *sweatier* servers. I really hate counter swapping, it's not fun. As much as I like playing a variety of characters, it's really rough when you get someone that counters you off the bat. I get why some people do it, the game is miserable if you just get unlucky with enemy comps.
The problem with overwatch is its trying to be a competitive game instead of a fun game. Developers should not focus on competitive balance, thats for competitive players to decide what is allowed or what is banned. The devs just need to focus on making the game fun since 99.99% of players aren't competitive.
OW quickplay sucks: - You get banned if you want to leave a casual game. - Team mates still treat it like comp and whine if you're not playing meta or counters. - You only get to attack or defend, then the game is over. There's no reason to play it unless you're warming up for a ranked game. It seems like that's the only reason it exists, to be supplementary to competitive.
The reason why overwatch players are so miserable is because the infrastructure of the game encourages it - you can report players for being bad, the characters are made to be hard countered by / to specific other characters with little nuance in the matchup and most importantly, all the cool unlocks and prestigious titles are gated behind repeated victory.
For me overwatch is boring because you supposed to sit in one place and waiting for someone to come in your crosshair. That two fun characters that you named was fun because they have good movement. In tf 2 there's a tons of movement mechanics, meanwhile overwatch is a slug fest around the point. And healers situation is also wrong for me. Because why you should walk somewhere else if your anna or mercy will always heal you. I swear, if they wanna change overwatch and make it harder and more interesting to play, instead of current 5v5 with one tank, give 2 tanks with 1 healer. This will be hell fun and overwatch players will find a thing called map design and not a point line
I don’t think it’s really fair to say tf2 is competitive in the same way over watch is. There is actual competitive tf2 and it’s pretty different from the casual experience. The question is where is the casual side of over watch?
I feel like competitive oriented gameplay and rank systems kills any fun that online game could have People care about pointless fking virtual number going down or up so much they become rabid animals. It's an absolutely predatory system that designed to keep people playing whatever you having fun or not. It makes you frustrated at literally everything, at teammates, at the devs, at your friends you play with, even family members, you don't have fun playing the game - you become toxic douchebag that company WANTS you to be. Because you'll come back Just one more game and you rank up, c'mon
to be fair, comp is so braindead i could make a plan with my medic to deal 3x damage every 3 seconds. for a heavy with a shotgun and good aim.. the enemy team wouldn't stand a chance even with ubers because i'm guaranteed to get crits before their uber. even if there's setup time, just make them pop, evacuate and you got the advantage after those 8 seconds but even a soldier or demo are vulnerable to airblast so really i could make a really great plan to win every round but then they'd just ban everything but stock.
Very well spoken. I agree with you. Overwatch 2 definitely encourages this toxic mentality that ruins any bit of joy and fun that might have been there otherwise.
TF2 isn't a competitive game and that's a fact. Thus it makes me immensely disappointed how badly Casual servers actually support this design and enforce competitive elements in where they don't belong. In fact, Casual servers at launch were identical to competitive servers, except for the ranking system and larger team sizes. Such a disappointment.
Overwatch is like uncletopia, it's full of sweats, except even uncletopia you can find wholesome and friendly momments, I almost tried that game, but when even the most of the fucking community talks about toxicity I can't handle being berated by one person on uncletopia, I won't handle shit on overwatch, I'm sorry funny silly mercenaries commiting genova convetion violations on each other is infinetly more entertaining, seriously I just have like two games on my pc and it mostly has more to do with it's communities, age of empires 2 and team fortress 2. Seriously, Whilst age of empire has a similar sized group as team fortress 2 and I belive tf2 is bigger, the competitive community is just CHILL, literally I can't think of any competitive player who isn't friend with some other comp player, it's a tight knit community, there are of course toxic people but it's hard to find them because the game also offers you an offline experience, and even then there a lot of funny things out there that Smash comp players should learn from Age players, the most drama the community has seen was a hot take and even then they talked about it in a civilized manner, and the angriest a player got from loosing a torunament was like "it was my fault they played good" shit to apreciate. Now I'm not sure how it is on tf2 I'm still yet to uncover every single little thing, and most players just want to have fun, while we too have sweats, they can't fucking do shit because most players just want to have a chill time. My best gaming memories, is just tf2 it's just the silly goofiness I get to see nearly every day god bless!
I totally feel you on that. OW2 is way too sweaty for me to have any type of fun in. It's fun to tryhard for a little bit, but the moment the counter-picking starts happening - All of the fun is ruined. And now it's not a game of skill, but a game of "Who has what" I've literally seen so many clips from Top 500 OW2 players where they idle in spawn and swap heroes depending on the enemy team's heroes. AND THE ENEMY TEAM DOES THE SAME THING. So, neither team is actually playing the game, they just stand there swapping characters over and over. Like, wow, what a fun time that must be. Also, I've never played Age of Empires but from how you're describing it - maybe I'll have to finally give it a chance!
@Bops_the_Vagabond I was being a bit exaggeratory when I said ALL of my hours. I was just going on a whole shpeil hahaha. I still have a good 200+ hours outside of competitive. However, I've yet to have much fun in quick play. Even when playing with my friends, it still feels the same as Competitive. It just feels like QP is a warm-up match simulator for Comp lol
@Smissmaspie I've been having the same issues with my comments either not being posted or UA-cam deleting them for whatever reason lol. Anyways, I'll contact you in an hour or so. I'm, unfortunately, about to leave to go say my final goodbyes to a distant family member. After that, though, I'll hit you up!
@@localdad I’m really sorry to hear that, I hope all is well and I’m sorry for your loss man. Life has been tough recently for you it seems, hope you’re pulling through though
5:40 In my humble opinion, this is little harsh unfair criticism of Overwatch, keep in mind I've never touched OW. I'm sure you can have this silly, goofy and non-try hard interaction in casual gamemode of Overwatch without getting called every single known curses and racial slurs known to mankind. Inversely, I also think you can't have that kind of interaction in competitive matchmaking of TF2.
you can say overwatch 2 sucks, tf2 also sucks but at least it's fun. i tried overwatch once it was the least fun to me. my bf played it, he top scored every match but he also plays tf2 a lot more. i'm not gonna say either of us are remotely good at tf2 or games in general but tf2 is at least really fun.
Exactly my point! I'd much rather hop on the game that I know I'll have fun in. Rather than playing a game that makes me feel miserable and stressed out even when I win.
Disclaimers:
This is a live, unscripted rant.
The game-play is extremely mid, but I was heavily focused on the rant.
Also, yes, I've played plenty of other game modes in Overwatch 2. I have 200+ hours outside of Competitive.
good point, but stop geeking and lock tf in. You are not pushing the cart bro😭 and the team needs you💦💦 so stop tweaking and start locking in🗣️💯💯❗️❗️
That scout encounter with you as spy is what tf2 is made for.
Right!?!? I can't even think of the last time I had an interaction like that in Overwatch!
@@localdad this is why we like TF2, it's like nothing you've seen.
"You know what's cool about TF2?"
Spy: The cart isn't moving, gentlemen!
Hahaha, the spy speaks for me 😂
The best way to describe TF2 in my mind is to look at it like an FPS with Club Penguin level socializing.
Hahaha that's a beautiful way of putting it
Why overwatch 2 isn't fun: essay. Why TF2 is fun: funnee killbind
@nanodose Hahaha let's be honest, more games should implement killbinds
@@localdador just custom binds in general
@@localdad or at least explosive death animations or something. i use the explode command instead of killbind cause it's awesome just splattering and gibbing all over the place.
@@npc_variant_gstfs yeah tf2 uses something similiar to bash script for console/command line meaning i made a toggle to attack with my q key. it's great for a mouse that's slowly breaking.
one of the major points in favor of tf2 to make it a more casual experiance
is mainly that its a 12v12 game, and that your free to join or quit in the middle of a match
It's honestly crazy to me that Blizzard gives penalties to someone for leaving an Unranked match a few too many times. Like, it's quick play! Imagine if TF2 gave you ANY kind of match making penalties
@@localdad i get the motive, but it absolutely destroys the fun value
OW2 feels way more like a MOBA rather than a class based shooter. Since there's less members on both teams, there's less room to just dick around.
Couldn't agree with you more. Well said.
Valve for some reason: You know maybe we SHOULD make moba class shooter!
Everyone: 🙄🤨
This is the main reason, I only play TF2 nowadays, cause it feels like most online multiplayer games right now, eventually just get turned into some competitive slop with ranks, elo and people that take the game way too seriously. Completely agree with everything you said in this video.
Only game I play with elo is chess
Worst part is a small subset of the fanbase like Uncle Dane (just one notable example) tried turning TF2 into literally that (competitive slop) and then we got the worst update in the game: Meet Your Match.
And I agree with everything you said as well!! I don't understand everyone's obsession with skill based match making. It ruins all of the fun that could've been had otherwise.
@@localdadElo makes games consistent, and in a casual setting that’s a bad idea. It makes games go stale. Am I gunna get rolled by 6 dudes in a discord with max casual badges? Am I gunna roll a team exclusively made up of Jose.Gonzalez.2009? Is it gunna be friendly? Who the fuck knows, that’s what makes it fun.
*COMPETITIVE SLOP* that's two words that describes multiplayer games today.
When I log in tf2 the only thing in my head is to do something, click on people, seeing big number pops up, doing stupid things with demoknight or trolldier, or having dopamine rush in MvM that's all.
But any other games with ranked system always got me thinking about my rank and fearing that numbers dropping upon losing, creates pressure and generally making the fun factor inexistent.
You were having fun and beating people (optional) in video games. Nowadays ranking display is everything, inflating ego and seeking recognizement.
I'm always desperate playing those games, blame people upon losing, getting frustrated and ends up with anger instead of relieve. I used to escape from ambitious assholes in real world by playing games, now ambitious assholes are in my games.
That's all, at least what's in my head. Idk about people tho.
The key word here, is agency.
In Overwatch, the overall outcome of a match is outside the control of any individual player, all your effort and skill can be for nothing if the rest of your team doesn’t pull their weight or just doesn’t have the same plan as you.
In TF2, despite having double the lobby size, 1 or 2 really good players can completely alter the gamestate through sheer skill. Even in competitive lobbies where the meta is more strict, this can also happen, often without warning.
It feels incredibly powerful to know that YOU, were able to completely obliterate this game. The sheer fact that it’s possible keeps you motivated and makes you feel in control.
This and the higher player count is also why it’s less of a bother to have some players being stupid. While it can still be an issue, the fact that only a few players can do so much gives the lesser players room to mess around.
You have much more agency over situations in this game, you are in control.
Yeah tf2 has stuff 12v12, which means you can afford some players who are not doing good. As long as there are 2 or 3 players picking up the slack, your team is good and no one is complaining that much.
The best part about TF2 in this case is that, in essence, there's no real 'hard counter' like in Overwatch. Except for stuff like a Scout vs. a Level 3 Sentry, and even then the scout can just go on the flank. Any class can just dominate a lobby. Like an engie can carry a team even with spies on the enemy team. But in TF2, you can win against any class as your class if you're skilled enough. Not to mention, you don't HAVE to cooperate with your team in TF2. There are 12 players, and some classes and playstyle are way better off not being in the main choke. You can goof around and still have a great time. But in Overwatch it's a lot more about always playing to win at all costs.
As an aside on Competitive TF2 - Community Centered Competitive TF2 (which is the standard because Valve doesn't support it) is a lot less toxic because its community ran, so people are alot less tolerant of toxic people and are just there to have fun as well. I won't get into the nitty-gritty of Competitive, but you can do silly stuff in matches and games and still absolutely win if you can play around your strategies.
Gonna have to disagree with you on this.
The Mad Cap HARD COUNTERS every melee specialist cause he IS the Melee Specialist. He can hit like normal with M1 and Heavy attack (with m2) that'll extra damage and bleed and if you hit the enemy in the same region (by aiming your crosshair), you can double the damage and the bleed timer, making it harder for demoknights, spy and heavy with the buffalo steak. And he gets a BLOCK option that reduces range damage by 20% but melee damage negation is double of that and the blocking region is exactly 180 degrees and you may have reduced movement speed by 70% but your turn speed is still the same, so you can literally make spy useless now by just holding m3 and wait until they killbind out of embarrassment OR you can use the Parry option (you can bind it to any key) which will deal a fixed 50% of the target's overall hp when a melee attack is coming your way.
And to add further onto the list, he has a fixed 150hp, 133% base movement speed and silent sounds so NO ONE can hear you breaking your kneecaps when jumping too high(spy can only do it when he's cloaked) and he can see ALL of his enemies health like spy, making it easier to pick your fights and his melee has barely any cooldown during attacks except for the Focus meter which will deteriorate by 17% after each attack and he's vulnerable when at 0% cause melee is his only option but he also can't block, parry and have decreased base movement speed but it's practically impossible to catch a Mad Cap player like that out in the open (unless they're new to the game)
@@xecksoffender942 Yeah, why do competetive players not play the obviously meta melee character? its such wasted potential, even highlander excludes him probably due to balancing reasons
Brudda. ALL sentries, even minis HARD counter Scout. Also most proper(aka more than 10 hours on him) engies will put sentries in a spot to hard counter Scout.
But wait *there's more* Scout isn't even the class that's most hard countered by Engy, Scout has shortstop and pistols which are... Not effective at all if Engy heals sentry but at least it's something... PYRO HAS *NOTHING* He has DF that has barely more range then stock flames which isn't even enough to take out mini without taking dmg. He has shotgun that has huge bullet spread fall off in the distance, and he has flared which are slow to reload, do bad dmg and can't crit or burn sentry, aka Pyro is even more cooked by Engy.
But wait, *there's more* if you consider subclasses or playstyles as fair comparison then Engy is even worse! His sentries also HARD counter Demoknight and Trolldier! Two of the most popular subclasses, can't have fun at all if bloody Engy decides to appear on enemy team...
So yeah, TF2 still better than OW cuz it only has 1-2 hard countering classes(second one being Sniper who technically can hard counter all other classes) but we sadly do have fun ruined classes that will force you to switch or least you get to have unfun match trying to fight self healing shooting wall...
Even the counters in TF2 are a lot more evenly matched. Like for your example of scout vs level 3, sentries were intentionally designed with mechanics that would allow them to be easily taken down if not properly defended by the engineer and his team, any class in the game can easily just peek around a corner and whittle it down over a few seconds. Scout is actually better at this than most other classes because of his high movement speed.
Another example is pyro being a counter to spy. Pyro's have a natural advantage over spies with their great short range damage and their afterburn staying on cloaked spies. However the spy player can still outplay the pyro with things like trickstabs or deal with them by gunning them down at mid range. (Not to mention the spy-cicle acting as a good escape option.)
For more info on these aspects of TF2's game design, I would refer you to SolarLight's video "TF2's Sentry Guns are Stupid" and Uncle Dane's video "Teamwork is an Illusion."
Ever since I saw Uncle Dane’s video on fake teamwork I realised the problem with games like Overwatch and my most played game, League. The experience has transformed to focus so much on the team aspect that the individual impact becomes significantly reduced to the point you can go on long streaks of games where you feel like you’re doing nothing in a clockwork machine that is teamwork.
It is like assembly line workers, sure it’s effective to pump out products but is the individual worker who only knows how to put one screw into one hole going to be satisfied with their work by the end of a ten year career?
The only time I ever had a TF2-Like moment in OW was when I got to witness a Friendly Enemy Torb who then 1v1ed our Torb in a hammer battle (our Torb was in for the friendly funny interaction, props to him). Wish more people had that mentality on Quickplay over the "Sweaty tryhard" one. It's not Comp for Christ sake.
Torb players are just naturally chill people we need more of them
TF2 is a team based arena shooter. It just allows way more player freedom by its nature
It definitely does! And, personally, I love that freedom. I have my moments where I want to be a serious try-hard and sweat my ass off, but the majority of the time I'm just looking to have fun. So, TF2 is my home!
The overwatch community is like those people who go into these beautiful Victorian houses and “improve” them by copy and pasting the same generic interiors, they made something that was designed for greatness, but their attitude just tore out everything that made it good.
I also just realised just now. Since OW and League and other competitive teamwork shooters have put so much focus on the team working, individual impact isn’t what you do right, it’s how little you fuck up, so if you wanna win then Everyone has to work together, but it takes one person to not want to work together for you to lose, no re no room for doubt.
You're completely right about the community being a major reason why playing overwatch is so unfun. It got to the point where i just muted voice and text chat, and while I DID have more fun after that, that shouldn't be something that's necessary to casually play.
I also noticed that after playing overwatch for too long, that competitive mindset rubbed off on me, and I expressed that in other games. It's pretty miserable, so I just stopped playing entirely.
It's mainly, because overwatch was made to be a semi casual hero shooter, but then was forced into the competitive esport mould, because that was trendy back in 2016, tf2 almost suffered the same fate with meat your match, but people just didn't give a shit about competitive to the point, where it went nowhere. Overwatch doubled, tripled and quadrupled down on it even though it never worked in the first place and after goats became a thing, after orisa, doomfist were a thing, just gave up, made the game role queue and hoped people would grind ladder for the rest of eternity for idk, gold weapon skins or something.
@@Audio_noodle TF2 basically did suffer the same fate because the vast majority of its current problems started with Meet Your Match :(
Thankfully the community is still... better, though not as great as it used to be.
Video games build the communities that they deserve.
This is legitimately what got me into tf2. You can just show up, be bad, and nobody will call you on it. I wanted to learn rocket jumping the other day so I hopped on 2fort and tried to launch myself onto the top of the bridge for like an hour. I kept fucking up, but hey! It was fine! A couple of scouts and engies were having a party up there, nobody cared.
What you just highlighted through your story is one of the most beautiful parts of TF2. It accepts any skill level, any playstyle, and any plan. You are free to do as you please without being reprimanded for it. It's amazing!!
Between the competitive air, and the moba treatment, the player count is another big contributor or result of both.
- If you have 8 players per team, you get more leeway to mess around without impacting scoring too badly.
- The more numbers you have, like 12, more room is given to passively explore options, your death is more forgiving on the team, and you could probably yoink someone just as distracted.
- But the less you have, like 4, scoring becomes more reliant on big team clashes more than loners. If you’re alone or with a buddy and you encounter a cluster of 4, you two may not live.
The difference between Team Fortress 2 and OW gameplay is where the bigger spread of enemies and allies are. You put 1 of 12 at enemy spawn, _maybe_ someone bats an eye, and 11v12 isn’t a big difference.
You put 1 of 6 at enemy spawn before a 5v6, they either get noticed or don’t contribute.
This way, OW could have never competed with TF2 as a “fun and fast-paced class shooter,” because of how relaxed and community-oriented it is(n’t).
OW is more of a MOBA prioritizing resource management (HP and Ults) that intrinsically ropes you with the team.
Trying to be friendly in Overwatch quicklplay gets you WWE wrestled into the ground for being useless lol
approach it with the mentality of "don't care, still don't care"
@@spoodernike still, being friendly and doing silly stuff is not fun if everyone else is against it. Friendly as in being a pootis pow hoovy that is.
@@mroffice8166 dunno homie, ive been having crazy fun trolling with lucio
@@spoodernike Trolling and being friendly is not the same thing
@@mroffice8166 depends how you look at it ig
This is the most genuine video I've ever seen, it's just a guy playing TF2 and being happy, and he just speaks from the heart about why Overwatch 2 is a good game but because of how Tryhard the community is, it became more a job than a video game.
Thank you to the moon and back for this comment. I truly appreciate it. I wasn't sure how this video would be perceived, but I'm glad to know it resonated with someone! 😄
tf2's greatest strength is that its a 12v12
Doomfist technically counts as fun mechanic but it's not worth learning as blizzard shits their pants anytime Doomfist is allowed to be mobile.
I remember only having fun on overwatch when it first came out and when find a group came out and you could group up and get comp lobbies. Winning used to be so fucking amazing on overwatch with combos and shit and teamwork. And now its just play and suffer and if you win its like jesus i am stressed.
For real!!! Even when I manage to go on a massive win-streak, I don't feel happy about it. I'm not having fun during it. I'm simply stressed out from having to try so hard and endure so many different people's complaints.
Can't even have fun with comms in overwatch 2 (last time i checked, blizzard spies on you when using your mic), we can't have fun stuff like "Doctor Se>< tape" (which is one youtube) cause blizzard deems that inappropriate
Seriously!!!!!!!! That's something I didn't talk about in the video, but that's such a huge point. I've been chat banned and account banned (on my main acc) many times. Often times I didn't even understand why. However, upon watching my recordings of the last few matches I played before getting all of those bans - I said a couple of curse words. Namely: Shit and Fuck. Blizzard really likes to enforce this whole "Toxic Positivity" crap on their player base and it is absurd. I'm a grown ass man playing a stressful, competitive shooter. Of course some gamer words are going to come out!
@@localdad Yeah. Everyone hated that stupid friggin rule because I'm pretty sure only NOW are they apparently enforcing it. Heck characters swear in-game.
6:32 FINALLY SOMEONE SAID IT
AND I'LL SAY IT AGAIN 😂
Main problem i think is that even in tf2 if you're playing like pyro or something and you need to counter a sentry, you quick switch to something that can deal with it, and then switch back. In overwatch, the ultimate meter prevents you from doing that too often since you're wasting it if you try to switch to it and back
How the game is designed influences the community behind it.
1:22 My issue with the counter swap meta is that your always on the back foot for making the right call. This is mainly due to how ults work is where you really don't get to carry charge over to the new character.
To make a comparison to TF2, imagine if everyone had an ubercharge-like meter they had to build but changing classes reset the meter. "Wow the enemy team is like half pyros but do I really wanna give up my Spy ult and the class im good at just to be productive?"
tf2: you can choose which maps you want to queue into and which character you want to play once you're in. if the server is bad for one reason or another or you just aren't feeling the map you got, you can just leave and requeue, without even leaving the current match.
overwatch: we force you to pick the right characters beforehand so we can make sure everyone is playing the game correctly before putting the lobby together with role queue. you cannot choose your maps or gamemodes. if you leave the match; banned. someone being toxic or just not having fun or you got a map you dont like? tough it out. go afk for 20 seconds? banned.
good video
quick play in OV2 genuinely feels like casual tf2. their widowmaker and mercy are at our spawn. because why not?
you should try it
I've put a bunch of hours into quick play, but it always ends up feeling like a warm-up match for competitive rather than a silly and laid back experience 😅
@@localdad really depends how you approach it and how much time you have in the game. because after a bunch of hours in the game, it turns out to be just as funny and goofy as tf2 as long as you are the one initiating the funnies. i cannot tell you how many times ive emoted during my games after getting a single frag on some guy i dont like or just showing off winton ow while waitng for something to happen. like go out there, play a funny character you like, get one kill or two, emote immediately. or better yet, try getting a potg in which you tbag on the "well played" dialogue bubble and get a 4k or something. like the good ol' days of 9/1- i mean ow1 season 1. when you think less about what you are supposed to do and do what you want to do, the game becomes funnier for everyone sept the tryhards in qp.
@@spoodernike Funniest moment I ever had back in OW1, the enemy Widow was way back trying to get picks. I sneaked up on her as Winston, dropped my shield bubble around her, blocking a shot. She unscoped then turned to look at me, then I did the emote where Winston acts like a wild ape. She just typed "lmao winston." Then my team lost because were on last point. Worth not helping my team defend last just for that moment.
@@localdaddepending on your perspective, mystery heroes can be a fun experience
@@spoodernike Yeah but good luck with that when your teammates yell at you for not taking the game seriously or typing something like "trash tank gg". I play tank so that doesn't do it for me. Also tank kinda sucks to play as.
You can have more fun playing supermarket simulator than a second of playing Overwatch 2.
Doomfist had fun mechanics but it got nudered by Winston Jump + Slam ability
In ow1 you had to build up to 125 dmg slam
And that was fun
Yeah, I remember old doomfist was really fun! I still enjoy Doom, but I suck at him hahah. He does have some fun movement mechanics though!
@@localdad the rework is most a massive nerf honestly, you just kinda push people around instead of being respected threat
doom is like spy or sniper, if the spy or sniper is having fun, no one is having fun, though i do agree that doom is a very mechanical hero that is fun in most cases, which is why i usually just play doom when i get tank, or rein, jq or ram, because they are also mega fun.
This could be applied to team comps, you would be yelled at if you didn’t go with the entire team comp. It’s unranked if I wanna play a class I want, then I will play it simple as.
I wholeheartedly agree that this is what video games are made for, too many games in the modern landscape focus on competitive play rather than leaving room for games to have fun silly moments, that's why I've come back to TF2 in the last week. This game just has so many fun moments that remind me what it's like to play a game and just have fun not caring whether I win or lose.
My dumbass thought thou shalt was a character in the game lmao
That shit made me laugh so hard 😂
This was an issue even back in the first game.
Heroes like Winston had no ways to deal with a Bastion because of his tankiness, his self healing, and how fast he could mow down others.
Overwatch in general has horrible balancing issues in general because some heroes are completely obsolete while others have absolutely broken abilities (ult or regular abilities) leaving those heroes as obsolete.
Example; Moira is (or was, I’m not sure about current Moira status) a meta dominant healer due to her high healing output and ult that could both heal and deal damage. Mercy, who was meant to be the defacto medic, got shafted completely since her kit was basically just TF2’s medic but with actual wings. She couldn’t give her team a speed boost like Lucio, weaken enemies like Zenyatta, or hell even just be hybrid between DPS and Healing like Brigette could. She was basically a vanilla Cleric with only healing spells and a slight damage buff that let’s be real, didn’t give enough edge for team wipes.
My problem with tf2 was whenever I wanted to try it, it seem to put me in lobbies where people would get pissed if I didn’t follow every rule of theirs. Or when I played medic it was constant yelling at me MEDIC!!!!!
I really like this live commentary feel, all I ask is that you give the subtitles shadow during editing
@@swisscheeese Will do! 😄
My quality of life improved massively once I realised that playing competetive games is just sysyphus work unless you are top 0.01%
When you get better, the enemies get better so I didnt feel any sense of acomplishment and trying to play more casually is harder the higher rank you have.
That's a very valid point that I hadn't really thought about. There truly is no sense of accomplishment when you're playing skill based match making. It just sucks the fun out of it and leaves you feeling empty. The only thing that really keeps you going is seeing your rank increase/decrease and the occasional gold weapon.
@@localdad And there are even more issues with competetive games for examples:
I quit csgo first because as I mentioned I didnt feel the sense of acomplishment and if I wanted to win I had focus and learn about strats, nade lineups etc. That I got overwhelmed and the feeling of winning was outweighted by the constant stress I was in.
Then I moved on to Apex legends. It was fun at first but today the matchmaking system is so broken that I cant win without really sweating at the lowest rank incthe game. I have 800 hours rn and before i could comfirtably reach gold, the all of the modes are as broken as that but mixtape is just 3rd party simulator and they removed arenas which were the most casual mode since they were 3v3 quite short matches so you didnt have to loot for 10 minutes and then worry about dying. No looting, no 3rd parties basically really fun.
After that I started playing the finals. The open beta was awesome. Everyone was using diffrent loadouts,everyone was experimenting and having fun, some things were annoying but tolerable I had insane win/loose ratio back then, same at the first days of the realase. But after like a week after release the op meta has developed and if you dont have a specific loadout with some small wariations and team comp and dont communicate with your teammates you will loose. No fun allowed
I played Rainbow six siege a bit but quit due to toxicity and Overwatch due to reasons you and I mentioned above
I have come to conclusion that all competetive games that focus on winning the game instead having a good time will be flooded with no-life sweats and ofc cheaters so they are simply not worth playing
Now i play Deep Rock Galactic, TF2 and some singleplayer games I get for free from epic game store.
2:44 Overwatch used to have moments like this but most people just quit because the game loop became unfun to most players.
>spend $9,000,000 on one Reinhardt skin
>have to play Zarya
I called out the issue with rigid inflexible class designations as a fundamental flaw with OW’s design back when OW1 was first released and ever since then it’s like most people dance around the issue. GOATs being so strong and counter swapping being so strong ain’t going to be fixed by going from 5v5 to 6v6 or vis versa. It’s the same issue that exists in MMOs as a fundamental flaw; there is going to be a class role that is a work horse that is unfun to play and that almost always falls to being a heal bot or a tank that does nothing but soak damage because, fundamentally, those aren’t exciting to play. TF2 got around the issue of a tank class by having the ubercharge which theoretically lets *any* of the classes be a tank to break or hold defenses. In a FPS the class/heroes that are in a inflexible tank role to basically be living targets for other players to shoot are never going to be fun to play until the reach a buffed point where it becomes unfun to be the ones shooting at them because then you have a DPS class that basically just wails on one or two guys and nothing else the entire match as the only meaningful choice they can make.
When I saw they limited everyone to only play one of each hero in quick play I knew the game would end up being somewhere I didn’t like. Wo and behold the game is forced into 1 tank 2 dps and 2 supports with no room for silliness
Overwatch is New York and TF2 is a small town in terms of community. Both games have their fun moments, but only once in a blue moon do I see anything nasty on TF2 (and it’s from MvM of course), where it’s essentially every session I have in OW. I still have fun when I lose in TF2, but Overwatch emphasizes winning and that your fun feels tied to other players doing their job.
I played Quickplay trying out Sombra and 2 of my teammates gave up after the first minute, started their typing marathons while idling or jumping off the map until the whole server just sat at final point in unison agreeing the match is busted: all because I picked a character in Unranked.
Meanwhile, I played PASStime as Heavy and an enemy Pyro offered Rock Paper Scissors in the middle of a fight and I accepted their challenge. A Demoman I was unaware of dominating started to shoot stickies at me, and the Pyro and I both turned to him like he was ruining something, and even that Demoman in pursuit of revenge stopped firing to let me RPS (before killing me anyway). Nobody typed a novel in chat, it was just spontaneous fun and taken on the chin. Then I re-dominated the Demo again naturally.
The cultures of both games are different, and it’s like stepping through another world playing either of them. OW would and has imploded from update droughts (see OW1 after OW2’s announcement), but TF2’s just a casual masterpiece sitting on the shelf you can always play for a good time, especially now after the bot genocide. I’d probably get OW chat banned for even using the word “genocide” no matter the context.
Idk man, maybe Rein is just the everything counter, but either i set up my shield, my team fires from behind that shield and we either win or nearly win, or i set up my shield, my entire team flanks, and we win again beacuse the enemy either recognizes the threat i pose and shoots the shield and not my teammates or shoots my teammates and eats two direct fire strikes.
Overwatch is tf2 but worse in 400 categories, the only one it's better: hampter character
Petition to add Hamter as the 10th TF2 mercenary 😂
If TF2 was 6v6, there would also be a counter-based picks and heavy emphasis on the meta. The issue is that it's so little players on each team that if one player doesn't give 100%, there is a very high likelihood of losing. I'm worried about how deadlock will play for this exact reason. We don't need more tightly-knit teamwork based shooters where you have to stick with the team and one player deviating or not playing optimally can make you lose.
I think the counter pick situation in pverwatch is truely shitty right now, because 5v5 with a tank makes it easier to counter pick rather than Two tanks.
In overwatch 2, the idea of being an off tank is dead, as there is only one tank to take responsibility
I've basically only played Arcade Mode on Overwatch. Mistery Heroes was a lot of fun and playing FFA as Lucio, Zarya or Ana was sweaty af, but also really fun. Unfortunately they dropped support for windows 7 so I didn't move to Overwatch 2. Anyway, it did said a lot to me that the most fun I had in Overwatch was only possible thanks to alternative game modes, and any time I tried playing quick play or competitive I just felt awful.
well, tf2's official competitive mode is next to nonexistant, but fuck it Im going back to tf2
I’ve shared your opinion on the state of these two games for quite some time, and to add to what you’ve said I think that one of the beautiful things about TF2’s loadout formula is how much individual expression people can have in the individual classes. Mixing and matching loadouts and investing in trackers and pretty unique cosmetics loadouts for your favorite class is hugely expressive in a way that swapping full heroes for the greater good of the team can’t achieve.
What I mean is, TF2 players, how many of you have online friends you can instantly recognize at a glance by their loadout (cosmetic and weapons)? That, coupled with the high and branching skill ceilings of all 9 classes is what I think keeps so many players around for literally thousands of hours. Within the 13 years I’ve been playing TF2, the classes have felt more like catalysts for the players’ real personalities, starkly contrasting the more cookie-cutter nature (which has its own advantages) of Overwatch heroes and their sacrificial role to the almighty composition meta.
It's not just a problem with Overwatch. It's a problem with class-based multiplayer video game in general. I was an avid player of Mobile Legends, a mobile MOBA game, and the way the game is designed is atrocious. It is steeped in meta and counter-pick. I rarely get to play my favourite champion because the meta rarely favour them, and everytime I pick up a new main they are nerfed because they counter the new fangled champion that the game want to push on the player. It sucks man. Now I've quit that game it's 1000% more peaceful.
I’ve played casual tf2, I’ve played 6v6 scrims tf2, I’ve played highlander tf2, I’ve played quickplay Overwatch, I’ve played solo rank Overwatch, I’ve played Overwatch scrims, heck, I’ll say I’ve even played League of Legends too.
I’ll just say that all of these have different pros and cons, some are better when you want to sweat, some are better when you want to chill. tf2 is more casual cuz it’s 12v12, try go and play spy in 6v6 tf2 and you’ll get sent to the shadow realm and called slurs in voice chat. If overwatch has 12v12 like tf2 then it will be just as casual.
On weekends, I like to grind some Overwatch rank and when I start to get exhausted, I play tf2 casual
Despite only having 9 classes, TF2 makes it feel like there are way more than that thanks to being able to switch weapons and change loadouts. There are also very few hard counters. Even when you do run into one, you can usually still mess around and do your thing on another part of the map or target a different player. This means that you can play any character any time. In OW, there are plenty of times I can’t play my favorite character(s) because of our team comp, the enemy’s team comp, map, current situation, whatever. And I can’t change that character’s abilities to adapt to what’s going on.
Also, expecting coordinated team actions (pushing, defending, support, etc) from randoms is going to give you a lot of headaches. Thankfully, in TF2, casual usually doesn’t really care if you can’t do those things. You can if you want, but no one’s gonna complain if you don’t.
Lmao just turn OW voice chat off, the voices aren't real if you can't heal them.
Real game design talk though, OW Quickplay and TF2 casual are completely different formats. OW Quickplay is just comp, but quick (less rounds) and no ranks. There is a real lack of distinction between the formats. TF2 casual is 12v12 and TF2 comp is 6v6, outrageous difference in weapon and playstyle viabilities (especially when comp is just 5cp). TF2 casual's format endorses silliness because there is very little weight to minor interactions (getting a frag in 12v12 means so much less in 6v6). OW quickplay is 5v5, and worse than that, is role format. So killing a support halves the healing of the team, as well as a 20% team reduction. TF2 gives a range of minor to major weight, if you go on a six killstreak you won the fight yourself, OW cannot have that due to team sizes.
Another major weakness about OW that I don't see anyone talk about is that OW doesn't do ammo. Every character has an infinite reserve. This has extreme ramifications where spam is free. The only limit of spam is the map, and you cannot have a purely open map because then snipers just win (since everyone "has" to have mobility (why does a sniper need a grappling hook??? or wall climb??? or the fucking force-a-nature???)). No matter how the map is designed, spam is optimal, chokepoints are painful, and tanks are required. This also means that maps have less tools to work with to make positions powerful.
The "counter-pick" makes no fucking sense for what the game is trying to be. What is the point of having a character for every playstyle if certain playstyles just lose to others? Isn't the point of classes/heroes to make it so that having a certain playstyle doesn't invalidate you? OG TF made classes as an evolution of Quake deathmatch so that players with different priorities can have fun (wanna just frag? soldier. wanna control the map? engi. have 300 ping? pyro.) So when you take the whole point of character variation, but nullify it because you cannot balance for shit (it's an impossible task anyway) you have just made a mistake.
In conclusion, OW wanted to be a competitive 6v6 shooter that anyone could play, TF2 wanted to be fun with the boys on a Thursday.
I tried playing Overwatch 2 for about a month towards the start of last year, and while I did find the game itself fun I hated the whole thing around counterpicking. Both because I didn't know the counters to my own or the enemies heroes, and because I just wanted to play the characters I found cool (which were unfortunately at the time Junker Queen and Doomfist mostly), so being pressured to counterpick and all that just got tiring, even in quickplay.
I literally played a single ranked match, got absolutely flamed by my teammates for not picking the optimal heroes (even though I was doing decently well), uninstalled the game, and never returned.
The matchmaking In overwatch is also very annoying. 3 out of 5 games I have are my team being fresh installs or people who just don't know what they are doing while the enemy team is either a 5 stack or just randoms that are competent and it leads to my team being rolled. Then the opposite happens where next game my team does the rolling. It got to the point where I don't like winning games because I just know the next match will be a shit show.
very clean & neat UI there
I believe my hud is called DarrHUD, if you'd like to use it :)
There's a TF2 achievement for counterpicking Pyro against Spy. XD
One thing i do like about tf2 is how they do match ups and counters. Thr counters and match ups are mostly soft-counters. Sure there are hard counter spy vs pyro and engineer vs scout, but even then spy has some things to deal with pyro and scout can take down egineer who in down time. Also while yes there times where game is nudging to play other class, as in someone needs to be medic in offensive or a engineer in defense, however your team is not completely screw if don't have those classes in your team.
Sure tf2 match up and counter system isn't prefect(looking at you sniper match ups) but for the future of class bases games, it should follow the soft counters model
When dad (trademark) first mentioned swapmeta in this vid, the first thing that I thought of was the difference between switching Heroes and switchinf loadouts: It’s the fundamental playstyle.
When you pick a loadout, you are either more specialized for something or are choosing stats that boost a certain aspect.
What doesn’t change is your class’s fundamental styles; Heavy is the slow sustaining fire, Scout is the agile CQC fighter, Soldier will always have projectiles, and Engineer is still primarily a builder.
When you switch to a new Hero in OW, you *cannot* adjust anything about their gameplay except your keybinds, while at the whim of whatever Blizzard Activision felt like giving you that day.
To switch a Hero isn’t like changing a stat, or getting a new tool; You’re forced to change your entire strategy because someone else picked another strategy that is mildly inconvenient or crippling to you specifically (and maybe three of your allies, like your singular Tank).
They tried to make the gameplay variety compete with TF2, but in that quantity, they have no room for flexibility.
@@palecaptainwolfkayls8499 Yes, exactly!!! Thank you!! If Overwatch heroes had more flexibility to them, they would be so much more fun to play! But, as it stands, there is little to no nuance about each and every one of them. You can master a character in a week or less due to how one dimensional they are. (Minus a few special cases). Comparatively, I've put thousands of hours on Soldier and Spy - Yet I still haven't mastered them.
Ya wilding for thinking Engy Vs Scout matchup isn't that bad.
Let me tell you HOW bad it is, even if you take shortstop, best primary Scout has for sniping a sentry, if Engy just keeps healing the sentry, you'll *never* destroy his sentry...
And that's not even the worst matchup, Engy Vs Pyro is even worse, cause Pyro has virtually no good long range options, flares are too weak and too slow reloading, shotguns have bullet spread and DF is only very slightly longer range then stock flames and that's still not long enough to safely destroy a mini.
But yeah besides Engy and Sniper, TF2 matchups are excellent! My favourite is Soldier Vs Pyro, no matter what class I am in this scenario it's always fun having mind games Vs Soldier or Pyro and then defeating them 😊
@@danielsurvivor1372 yeah pyro vs engineer would be a better example of a hard counter(that and demokinght). Even then pyro has air blasting rockets and dragon fury to take down sentries. Plus pyro is one the better uber candidates.
Also pyro vs solider is definitely a fun match, even if some of it can be the 2 staring at each other to make the first move.
I took *one* look at OW2's art direction redesigning old characters, and I knew I made the right choice leaving during the Blitzchung fiasco. The only thing I missed was those custom games in OW1, but I guess that doesn't matter when the first one is literally unplayable. I was so appalled at the new DVa suit that I thought, "It's like Bobby Kotick himself wanted to make her as fugly as his soul". At the end of it all, I should have never left TF2.
I get the feeling I play tank. Also the outcomes are more consistent because the skill level is less varied. You might have more fun if you played something like quickplay or arcade where the stakes are lower. I also enjoy tf2 more than overwatch but that’s more because I disagree with the fundamentals of the game. I prefer tf2’s focus on burst fire filled 1 v 1’s and skirmishes over overwatch’s near constant teamfight and deathballing tracking bonanza. Honestly the only gun’s I have fun shooting in that game are Cassidy’s revolver, Sojourn’s fuck you button, and Doomfist’s little baby arm gun.
i think another thing that restricts overwatch is blizzard almost never pushing for silly stuff while tf2 has always been silly and valve (when they cared) pushed both serious and silly play that helped nurture a community of (mostly) fun players while overwatch coms and all that feel, as you said restrictive and sometimes straight toxic
This is like shower thoughts but with TF2.
But i agree with ya about overwatch 2 too.
Man if this is where overwatch is right now, i'm glad I left after they announced OW2.
When I played OW1 even in comp I chose characters I liked and we have some fun matches with creative ways to do ultimate. I used to go dva and boost upwards then ultimate it; then when I land I run around the spot like and idiot dodging attacks and then run; so they'd follow me into the blast the moment it landed :D
Or when I was reinhardt I dashed into a dva about to explode and took both of them off the edge of the map to save the team. Good times. We all laughed about the suicidal rein :D
Seems those days are gone over there and tbh I'm glad I didn't buy OW2; it seems more trouble than it's worth.
Those were definitely the golden days, my friends. I also remember the golden days, it was so much fun while it lasted. At this point though, as it stands, you're not missing out anything. In fact, you're saving yourself the stress and hassle of dealing with that community lol
I think TF2 works because of the numbers despite. 12 players on each team means that not all of them even need to be playing optimally. It’s fine if 2 players go off and have a silly little adventure doing an off meta build or just being friendly because the game is likely still moving because of the players that aren’t doing that. This stops functioning at lower numbers and when you take it seriously, which is why competitive TF2 didn’t really take off and has to ban a lot of items. Not to mention low skill players have many options to contribute to their team while not ruining the fun for others. Like a dogshit player can still be useful if they have a solid sentry nest running or just play medic.
The fact that overwatch tried to be competitive makes it’s not fun along with the 5v5 thing. You really feel it when one person is lacking or goofing off, especially if that one person is playing tank or support. But there is the mythical funny moments in overwatch. My favorite being rein duels. That perfect match where we both forget about the objective, leave the DPS and support players and we live with honor, and die with glory.
I hope you don’t mind asking, but what HUD are you using?
No trouble at all, it's called DarHUD! It's my absolute favorite.
@@localdad thanks
TF2 has this too. its called MVM
0:12 That's not entirely true though...
There's one core class of TF2 that HARD counters TWO other core classes(and tons of subclasses/playstyles) and you have near zero or no counterplay.
I'm talking about Engineer or specifically his sentry that literally hard counters Scout and especially Pyro. I say especially Pyro because *i g u e s s* scout has shortstop and pistols, but lemme tell ya, if engy even semi actively healing his sentry ya ain't removing it! What's worse is that due to being a hitscan you can't even kill engy accidentally like how explosive classes can.
Pyro has an even bigger issue dealing with Engy, since his long range options are even weaker than shortstop, he either had Dragon Fury which is very slightly longer range than regular flames. He has shotgun that has huge spread long or even mid range and he has flares that are too slow, do too low dmg and reload slow.
Aka if Engineer is present on enemy team with a sentry protecting the objective or vital routes, you HAVE to either switch to Demo(he's the only semi reliable sentry destroyer since Soldier has less explosives and weaker ones and Spy just gets bodied by Engy if Engy is near sentry)
Also there's Sniper too which can be considered a hard counter to Heavy, sure heavy can take fists of steel and eat dalocohs bar but Sniper can still do and usually can still kill heavy.
Still though, only having 1-2 hard countering classes in TF2 IS why TF2 is so amazing. I just wish Sniper would get nerfed and Engy didn't exist and TF2 would be perfect
2:01 Only work out IF enemy doesn't have an engineer with sentry. Heck you might even be able to kill heavy with frying pan but if the enemy just has o n e mini, or full sentry, you're wacky adventure ruined
Pyro can reflect turret's rockets at engie, it does enough damage to OHK.
Even if it doesn't kill him, he will consider moving to dispencer or healthpack. Also, you can kill engie with flare or detonator, the latter is even better at forcing him to reposition, because the only alternative is to die to mini-crits. Engie can completely counter all of this by having rescue ranger, but that makes him vulnerable to spies and everyone else really, because less damage and less ammo. And on top of that the turret becomes more vulnerable to team pushes when engie is far away from it, again because of low ammo.
I've seen more silly moments with the enemy like you had with your friendly sniper and the red scout in fucking Valorant than Overwatch despite it also being much more interesting as a competitive game than OW
Overwatch would be an infinitely better game if they deleted half the cast. Think about it, 90% of the community hates like half the cast. Symmetra, sombra, mei, orisa, pharah, moira, the list goes on and on. Theres almost nothing in tf2 that players actively hate other than sniper, the vaccinator, and the wrangler. And even in those, sniper and the vaccinator have at least some counterplay. Not a whole lot but some. As you say, if your favorite character is someone like reaper or junkrat, and the opponent plays pharah, youre cooked. Gg, swap characters, no fun allowed.
Yeah, I completely agree. I constantly hear the OW Community complaining about the cast of heroes. It's a damn shame that Blizzard doesn't actually listen to their community. Instead they ignore them and add more slop to the mix. Don't even get me started on Mauga. 😅
I picked up overwatch 2 when it came out as free to play and never played ow1 so had to go through challenges to unlock all the heroes and constantly got insulted for not playing optimally with a hero I literally just unlocked in CASUAL never played long enough to unlock all heroes and let alone play comp
Congrats on 1k just realized :D.
Thank you so much, I really appreciate that 😄
Personally, I don't counter swap in ow unless I cant make it work. So many people get hard stuck at a rank and just never learn to adapt. The best way to improve is to learn how to outplay the counters.
Say that to the doomfist otp I keep sleeping and nading everytime he engages. Bet he had that mentality too lol
@@lukeaustin4465 wothout a challenge, you will never improve
A tea for two player rants about the second installment of after clock for 15 minutes
I thought I was having a stroke when I first read this comment, but then I realized what you were saying after a couple of minutes 🤣
@@localdad lmao
you're well spoken for a live video
I can't remember who talked about this before - I think it might've been _STAR? - but yeah, you can blame the community, but it honestly still comes back to the game for designing itself in a way that incentivizes this behavior.
And it's like...from the very beginning - Overwatch 1 - the game was designed to have classes with basically zero skill expression. With Soldier, you have all kinds of trick jumps you can pull off if you've mastered rocket jumping. With Pharah, you press a button and you're in the air. Genji has tech? Not anymore he fucking doesn't.
And each character is designed with one specific playstyle in mind. A single gameplan. It's not like TF2 where you can have a bombing Soldier or a pocket Soldier, a flanking Pyro or a bodyguard Pyro - if you play Junk, you might get a cool mine throw, but you're GONNA be spamming nades the majority of the game. There's no alternative loadouts, only entirely new characters.
This doesn't just flatten skill expression - it creates the whole toxic counterpick mentality in OW. TF2 has counters, but for the vast majority of them there still isn't a decisive winner - just disadvantage. And even then, you can often avoid your worst matchups with good positioning and leave them to your team.
Paladins of all games actually trounces OW on all these points. If only it was a good game...
Also hot take? If you have a COMPETITIVE game mode, there should be no such thing as fucking Solo Queue. You should have lobbies, invites, a place to coordinate before going into a match - "competitive" in the majority of multiplayer games has so little to do with your own skill and ability to coordinate, so much as it is your ability to wrangle randoms each game into something *resembling* a team and hope you rolled lucky with the ones you got. You can't build a rapport with your team because you disband every game.
Have some kind of fucking clan system you gotta be in to play comp. It would be awkward and a bit more difficult to make groups, but at least you could call it an actual fucking competitive team game when you play.
Call of duty would be less fun if you had to switch a class everytime you got killed by a certian class. Imagine if cod players "counterswapped" every time they die??
Tf2 says "What can you do for yourself? Maybe it can help the team"
Overwatch says "What can you do for your team? Maybe itll help yourself"
If overwatch keeps makes team gameplay not fun... its not helping you. In comparison TF2 already lets you have fun by yourself.
Idk if overwatch needs to be less of a team game or just needs 6v6 back. But theres a problem
Agreed! Also, I feel like OW2 would greatly benefit from 6v6 returning. That's what the game was original balanced around anyways
The format does matter, no-one plays competitive tf2. People will complain about missing a medic in *sweatier* servers. I really hate counter swapping, it's not fun. As much as I like playing a variety of characters, it's really rough when you get someone that counters you off the bat. I get why some people do it, the game is miserable if you just get unlucky with enemy comps.
Ow doesnt have kill bind
0 out of 10, no killbind
cool video, do you want to do some 1v1s
The problem with overwatch is its trying to be a competitive game instead of a fun game. Developers should not focus on competitive balance, thats for competitive players to decide what is allowed or what is banned. The devs just need to focus on making the game fun since 99.99% of players aren't competitive.
OW quickplay sucks:
- You get banned if you want to leave a casual game.
- Team mates still treat it like comp and whine if you're not playing meta or counters.
- You only get to attack or defend, then the game is over.
There's no reason to play it unless you're warming up for a ranked game. It seems like that's the only reason it exists, to be supplementary to competitive.
The reason why overwatch players are so miserable is because the infrastructure of the game encourages it - you can report players for being bad, the characters are made to be hard countered by / to specific other characters with little nuance in the matchup and most importantly, all the cool unlocks and prestigious titles are gated behind repeated victory.
im 100% there with you dude also i love uncripted talking it's the most honest it's how i do all my videos
Glad to find some like-minded individuals! And I'll have to check out some of your content then!!
For me overwatch is boring because you supposed to sit in one place and waiting for someone to come in your crosshair. That two fun characters that you named was fun because they have good movement. In tf 2 there's a tons of movement mechanics, meanwhile overwatch is a slug fest around the point. And healers situation is also wrong for me. Because why you should walk somewhere else if your anna or mercy will always heal you. I swear, if they wanna change overwatch and make it harder and more interesting to play, instead of current 5v5 with one tank, give 2 tanks with 1 healer. This will be hell fun and overwatch players will find a thing called map design and not a point line
You can have those silly goofy moments in OW. Just play unranked. I had 2 just yesterday lol.
If you want hard counters play an rpg like pokemon, but team based shooters should let every member of the team be useful most of the time
Couldn't have said it better myself!!!
wait what hud is this?
@@MagsTerrave DarHUD 😄
@@localdad
thanks dad, btw wheres that milk?...
wait a minute, your not my dad
I don’t think it’s really fair to say tf2 is competitive in the same way over watch is. There is actual competitive tf2 and it’s pretty different from the casual experience. The question is where is the casual side of over watch?
I will play Doom even though he's counterwd by the other team playing literally anyone
I feel like competitive oriented gameplay and rank systems kills any fun that online game could have
People care about pointless fking virtual number going down or up so much they become rabid animals. It's an absolutely predatory system that designed to keep people playing whatever you having fun or not. It makes you frustrated at literally everything, at teammates, at the devs, at your friends you play with, even family members, you don't have fun playing the game - you become toxic douchebag that company WANTS you to be.
Because you'll come back
Just one more game and you rank up, c'mon
to be fair, comp is so braindead i could make a plan with my medic to deal 3x damage every 3 seconds. for a heavy with a shotgun and good aim.. the enemy team wouldn't stand a chance even with ubers because i'm guaranteed to get crits before their uber. even if there's setup time, just make them pop, evacuate and you got the advantage after those 8 seconds but even a soldier or demo are vulnerable to airblast so really i could make a really great plan to win every round but then they'd just ban everything but stock.
Very well spoken. I agree with you. Overwatch 2 definitely encourages this toxic mentality that ruins any bit of joy and fun that might have been there otherwise.
TF2 isn't a competitive game and that's a fact. Thus it makes me immensely disappointed how badly Casual servers actually support this design and enforce competitive elements in where they don't belong. In fact, Casual servers at launch were identical to competitive servers, except for the ranking system and larger team sizes. Such a disappointment.
Overwatch is like uncletopia, it's full of sweats, except even uncletopia you can find wholesome and friendly momments, I almost tried that game, but when even the most of the fucking community talks about toxicity I can't handle being berated by one person on uncletopia, I won't handle shit on overwatch, I'm sorry funny silly mercenaries commiting genova convetion violations on each other is infinetly more entertaining, seriously I just have like two games on my pc and it mostly has more to do with it's communities, age of empires 2 and team fortress 2.
Seriously, Whilst age of empire has a similar sized group as team fortress 2 and I belive tf2 is bigger, the competitive community is just CHILL, literally I can't think of any competitive player who isn't friend with some other comp player, it's a tight knit community, there are of course toxic people but it's hard to find them because the game also offers you an offline experience, and even then there a lot of funny things out there that
Smash comp players should learn from Age players, the most drama the community has seen was a hot take and even then they talked about it in a civilized manner, and the angriest a player got from loosing a torunament was like "it was my fault they played good" shit to apreciate.
Now I'm not sure how it is on tf2 I'm still yet to uncover every single little thing, and most players just want to have fun, while we too have sweats, they can't fucking do shit because most players just want to have a chill time.
My best gaming memories, is just tf2 it's just the silly goofiness I get to see nearly every day god bless!
I totally feel you on that. OW2 is way too sweaty for me to have any type of fun in. It's fun to tryhard for a little bit, but the moment the counter-picking starts happening - All of the fun is ruined. And now it's not a game of skill, but a game of "Who has what" I've literally seen so many clips from Top 500 OW2 players where they idle in spawn and swap heroes depending on the enemy team's heroes. AND THE ENEMY TEAM DOES THE SAME THING. So, neither team is actually playing the game, they just stand there swapping characters over and over. Like, wow, what a fun time that must be.
Also, I've never played Age of Empires but from how you're describing it - maybe I'll have to finally give it a chance!
Have you considered its because all of your hours on competitive?
@Bops_the_Vagabond I was being a bit exaggeratory when I said ALL of my hours. I was just going on a whole shpeil hahaha. I still have a good 200+ hours outside of competitive. However, I've yet to have much fun in quick play. Even when playing with my friends, it still feels the same as Competitive. It just feels like QP is a warm-up match simulator for Comp lol
The line between casual and competitive attitudes in OW is practically nonexistent.
Hey dad! Been a while hasn’t it
@@Smissmaspie It certainly has!! I hope you and your girlfriend are doing well. 😄
@@localdaddon’t know if UA-cam deleted my comment or bad internet or what but I asked if you were able to be contacted via steam I had news
@Smissmaspie I've been having the same issues with my comments either not being posted or UA-cam deleting them for whatever reason lol. Anyways, I'll contact you in an hour or so. I'm, unfortunately, about to leave to go say my final goodbyes to a distant family member. After that, though, I'll hit you up!
@@localdad I’m really sorry to hear that, I hope all is well and I’m sorry for your loss man. Life has been tough recently for you it seems, hope you’re pulling through though
Well said
Thank you!! Appreciate your comment :)
5:40 In my humble opinion, this is little harsh unfair criticism of Overwatch, keep in mind I've never touched OW. I'm sure you can have this silly, goofy and non-try hard interaction in casual gamemode of Overwatch without getting called every single known curses and racial slurs known to mankind. Inversely, I also think you can't have that kind of interaction in competitive matchmaking of TF2.
Wait...people still play OW2?
you can say overwatch 2 sucks, tf2 also sucks but at least it's fun. i tried overwatch once it was the least fun to me. my bf played it, he top scored every match but he also plays tf2 a lot more. i'm not gonna say either of us are remotely good at tf2 or games in general but tf2 is at least really fun.
Exactly my point! I'd much rather hop on the game that I know I'll have fun in. Rather than playing a game that makes me feel miserable and stressed out even when I win.