What's your thoughts on the games speed? Do you like the new speed? Prefer the old Multiversus? I personally think that we can meet a happy middle ground with enough time with satisfying movement, yet high commitment gameplay that keeps players considerate of what options they choose. Let me know what you think!
Well I already commented part of my thoughts, but I can add some more things. I feel like at of the "essence" of the game has been stripped away. The game had a higher focus on the 2v2 in the beta, and they had a bigger focus on gimmick movesets. This is pretty much gone or reduced. They have so little focus on the 2v2 now that they even removed the support role lol. I agree the 1v1 in Multiversus wasn't really that great, but remember what made this game special was the 2v2. I think the best thing they should have done must have been to reduce dodges, and increase SLIGHTLY the size of the characters, so they don't end up going circles around each other in 1v1s. In this way the game is still focused on the 2v2, and the main idea isn't gone, but those who want to play 1v1 are offered a way better gameplay.
It’s good they slowed it but they went too far also the new dodge meter punished aggressors a bit too much I understand it to disinsentivise dodge slam but it definitely hurts the approach options too much Also the balance needs sone tweaking abd the geversl philosophy of it especially since they just stuck a cool-down on WW and that doesn’t do anything but annoy both sides
As an avid player of both the beta and the full release. I liked both speeds equally. The slower speed is much more competitive (at least to me) and makes combos feel so much more satisfying, but with that being said, the beta speed allowed for a lot more casual fun as well as more (for a lack of a better term) “controlled chaos”, especially in twos, where more things would be thrown around widely. I don’t mind either speed and if they were to change it back I wouldn’t be complaining. But that’s just me 😅
The slowness of the game is not what’s keeping me from enjoying playing/watching it. It’s the overall physics and the way characters move around the screen. It looks less like characters in an arena fighting and more like characters flying around the screen doing animations that happen to hit. Why do the characters stay in the air for so long when jumping, and why does momentum look like that…??
@@gusgarrison9211brawlhalla actually controls good tho (very different from smash but in its own right really tight) Multiversus controls like a vague description of what brawlhalla plays like from a smash veteran after a single 15 minutes session
@@RandomGreenKirb This is so real omg, and the anvils also explain why move take 1.5 second to come out, it's all because the characters struggle to initiate the movement due to the weight of the anvils.
I don't think this comparison works as much as you think it does only for a single reason: animation and gravity. Street fighter may be a slower game, but it doesn't fall anywhere near the kind of game multiversus does mainly because everything in SF looks and feels heavy. All of the animations and hits are tight and impactful making it feel like each interaction actually has some level of push back. Multiversus looks, and feels like two kids on a trampoline wacking each other with balloons. The startup and pay off of every animation in the game is awful, even jumping. It's like the devs looked at how sora works in smash and went "yeah that's the kind of speed we want".
Yeah, one of the things that keep Smash still on top of the platform fighter scene is that its gameplay feel is one of the best, both in Melee and Ultimate. Melee has a good presentation for a GCN game developed in around a year, but its tight execution makes up for the lack of flashiness compared to modern titles. As the Doom CM put it, "you control the buttons you press", and that makes things impactful for players. Plus, the free flow movement is part of what keeps it enjoyable to watch. Ultimate makes up for its questionable at times buffer and more restricted movement (there's a reason people say maneuvering platforms is the hardest tech in the game) with an incredible presentation, animation and sound design. Hits look AND feel impactful, especially with how knockback works, and the final stock kill screen is hype as hell. The game feels great and hits a very sweet middle ground in terms of speed (most of the time). When i look at new Multiversus gameplay, characters feel floaty like balloons and always in coyote time.
@@williamalbatross4677 Yeah, I dont know what this guy was on when he was talking about whiff punishes, they dont exist in MV, every player online just spams after a whiff and it hits most of the time because the hitboxes are awful. The whole game is built as easy as possible to actually win against a better opponent
Technically the first “juiced up” version of Street Fighter was Darkstalkers. That series became the bridge between traditional Street Fighter and turbo versus games which eventually gave us Children of the Atom, the start of the Versus series.
in melee touch of deaths aren’t just won from one interaction, you will need to read your opponent multiple times, yes in melee characters explode but it’s from fast decisions from both players
@@achilles8 i know lol, i'm not taking a dig at icies, i *AM* an icies player. While handoffs aren't free, they're still not that hard as melee stuff goes and sometimes you still just take someone's stock from a grab at 0% that is basically unescapable without pre-mash. Handoff rng be like that
you used to be able to play with every character unlocked in offline Vs. mode in the beta, but I think they took that out potentially? idk I haven't bothered with the relaunch, way better games out there now I'd rather invest my time into
The problem with multiversus is the physics and animations. They feel sluggish, and like the characters float around while moving like ragdolls. Also, the momentum feels nonexistent. It feels like there’s no gravity in the game and it seems like the characters just stop in midair
My problem with the speed of the game is that it seems uncommitted to either being a fast or slow game, making it feel like the worst of both worlds. The movement is shafted, and that's the one that is most talked about with it feeling like the game is no longer fast. However... Dodge spam is still very much a problem (and the meter is not punishing enough for most of the cast), as are noncommittal moves that only around half of the cast have while the other half just don't have noncommittal moves for some reason. This makes the game not feel like a slow paced game, since the slow game fundamentals discussed in this video don't really apply for Multiversus. I think this is what makes Multiversus feel so unappealing to so many people, because it is not committed to one style of play or the other. While I don't dislike the game, I really would prefer if the game commits to one of either style of game speed.
I agree that the dodge system is a HUGE pain point for the game right now. Characters across the board don't have as much end lag as they should. I think a big reason they try to make dodges so good and non-committal though is because it's also most characters primary way of whiff punishing, so it's difficult to find a balance where dodges can be good ways to whiff punish, but also not so outrageous that the gameplay devolves back into dodge spam. It's going to be a rough tightrope to walk for sure, but I do have faith that Player1st will push out consistent updates to address these concerns until they've found a good balance.
@@RPS_FGCa good solution imo is for dashes to be able to be interrupted by attacks, but otherwise have longer endlag. You can whiff punish but if you dodge u have to commit to a longer anim or to tossing out a hitbox, opening yourself up to a whiff punish
For me the biggest problem with Multiversus is honestly character design. If you have no context for any of these characters there's a very good chance a lot of their best gameplans are some combination of jab, down air, up air, up special. It makes the game feel extremely stale when half the roster's win condition is some variation of a ladder combo with the top of the tier list getting their ladder kills at 40% and lower half killing off the top at 120%. There are 26 characters in the game as of the Joker patch and I'd say at least 20 of these characters primarily rely on this ladder combo.
Don't forget that every people abuse of ladder combos, but what about combos that sending you on sides ? Some characters are better to kill on side, but most of the map don't allow it.
As someone who plays a lot of fighting games, I have to both agree and disagree with some of your takes. I definitely agree that Melee is a fast paced game that sometimes disproportionately rewards agressive play at lower levels. The defender typically will only have a few options to escape back to neutral, while the aggressor almost always has a laundry list of mixups that can cover multiple of said options. However, I don't agree with Street Fighter being "slow." It's true that SF is typically known for footsies and grounded play, but that doesn't necessarily make the game slow. Sf6, SF3, and SF2 feel very fast and offense-oriented. In addition, the various mechanics in each game such as the parry, V-trigger, ultra, and drive rush systems all serve to enhance offense and emphasize that holding block is the _worst_ position to be in. On the topic of MV, I feel that the main issue isn't even necessarily the slow frame data, or the hitstun. It's the ridiculous floatiness and the *30 frames* of input buffering that make it feel like you cant properly space. If they wanted to take this approach, they should have copied games like Samurai Shodown, where it's practically the norm for characters to have absurd range and disjoints, but it's balanced out by the slow and methodical nature of the neutral game. As it stands right now, I don't think it's fair to say that people who preferred the fast feeling of the MV beta simply don't enjoy it now because they "don't like slow gameplay." I think the bigger issue here is that the MV devs seem clueless as to what makes slow gameplay interesting and complex. Right now, you have no control of the space around you, and both characters float around the screen, aimlessly putting out hitboxes and praying for a connect.
Street fighter isnt slow overall but definitely slow compared to alot of the fast paced fighters like strive, blazblue. Dragonball, etc. Although there are slower games, Id say its more on the slower spectrum of fighting games. Yes theres things like drive rush but the overall neutral just plays alot more strict and punishing and slower than most titles. Thing about mvs ill agree its a bit floaty for my taste. The new input buffer settings feel great though. Used to think it played extremely slow and floaty while playing it like how i would normally play smash. But watching higher levels of play the game is clearly designed to be played differently and still plays surprisingly fast. Dodge meter almost serves as drive rush in this game for combo extenders and closing the distance in neutral. Beta had a ton of complaints about the speed and dodge spamming too.
Unless drill is completely fresh (unusual unless it's the first attack of the stock) you can just shield grab. Nair shine is closer to what you were going for in your example.
@@tobimakkuraI feel like appreciation + respect for brawl's only grown since the other games have released Now it's just another entry in the series rather than the latest game
To be honest I prefer Multiversus when it was in beta mainly because I felt like I could do whatever I wanted when it came to movement, but with the full release of Multiversus I feel like I cant move even when I know an attack is coming, I cant play the way I want to play anymore, Them changing the speed of the game is to big of a change for me and because of that I don't think I can enjoy the game anymore.
"people would mog you in the back alley if you threw them too many times" This still exist in the form of what's called "casual players" (referred as "the shower takers" in the holy ancient street fighter guide). My father's 50 and he still gets mad when I throw more than 2 fireball a round (mind you he knows how to block and he play SFV Bison, who can litterally slide across half the terrain only using normals).
@@deathtrooper2048 Nah he played street fighter very casually since the 2nd, but he never abandonned the idea of winning by mashing and he's angry when we don't let him do that (tho I have never tried to play a full match by just blocking everything he throws and punishing when I can, the temptation to fireball is too high).
the characters just don’t feel as good to move around and fight with compared to a smash type game, i can’t really explain why they fell heavy but light
@@shrimpchris6580 I thought it was really fun in short bursts but the movement wasn't thought out enough The franchise's reputation would've been much stronger if the second game had been the first
Man I was grinding the hell out of the beta. After waiting a whole year for it to come back only to find it not even remotely close to the game I loved while also getting jammed full of insane MTX/PvE grinds just killed it for me. Have not touched the game past the first week of the relaunch.
This was a fascinating topic to explore, I'd love to see you talk about the general movement philosophy of more games! What about other Smash games, what about Tekken, what about Rivals of Aether? For me personally, I really liked the game feel of Smash 4, but when I moved over to Ultimate everything felt... horribly slow and clunky. It took a long time to re-learn how to play. I also think it's interesting how many players complain about Sonic- he's probably one of the most frustrating characters to play against purely because of his speed. I've always loved Tekken because it feels slow enough that you can easily understaand what you're doing wrong; meanwhile I've been trying to get into Rivals lately, but the more I play it the more I absolutely despise it, it's SO fast and often I feel powerless to do anything against my opponent because things are happening far faster than I'm able to react. Also shoutouts to Spiritfall for having the best platform fighter gameplay don't @ me it's true
I guess the main reason why I fell off MvS both times was the fact that there wasn't any consistency on who could be played as. It was the character rotation and monetization system that pushed me away. MvS's game speed could easily hit a great sweetspot. But until the developers make everybody from the base roster free to use (aka the folks from the initial beta roster up to Lebron) I don't see myself playing.
Addendum: This change I'm proposing would mean that you'd have to unlock Rick, Morty, Gizmo, Stripe, Black Adam, Marvin, The Joker, Jason, Banana Guard, and Agent Smith. So I think WB could still make them buyable ot let players grind for 'em. But I feel it's important for the game to have a base roster that's usable at all times.
I dont have an issue with the current GAME speed, i have an issue with current JASON speed (his attack & movement speed)... Along with his hitbox/hurtbox issues and the hitstun of his moves compared to the rest of the cast
Hot take, but I think Jason is great; not perfect, but great. I consider him a high risk, high reward character, and I believe he shines best in 2’s, if you can synchronize with your partner, you can get a lot of hard hits and early kills with Jason. If you don’t go swinging Willy nilly, and you try to catch your opponent after they dodge, you can get the hits. I believe overall, Jason is a character who takes SKILL.
The problem with Multivesus is that it was designed with focus on the speed first, and then changed it. Basically all the characters playstyles were based on that, and when they changed it, well, they basically made a big mess. Practically all characters have been "ruined" in a way, as their movesets arent meant for this new gameplay. Apart from this drastic change, theres another problem i have always mentioned. Platform fighters need lots of space and mobility, so a 2v2 platform fighter needs even more, so why reduce it? Yes, the game feels more like SF now, but it hasnt near the complexity of that game, as the core gameplay isnt based around that kind of gameplay. Edit: Apart from all this, as the other guys have said, good vid. You deserve way more followers man
I found a post I made about how the changes affected my old main, Marvin, so I'll just copy paste it here. Marvin's whole gimmick is that he has absolute control over the map and the projectiles. You have to pay attention to the enemies's projectiles so you can catch them, pay attention to your own projectiles, so you can redirect them, and pay attention to your cooldowns, so you don't end up overcommitting and running out of projectiles, which are Marvin's strength. However, the new gameplay approach in the full release makes projectiles less effective and gives them longer cooldowns. This is because, with reduced mobility, it would be impossible to dodge so many projectiles. This change messes up Marvin's whole playstyle for various reasons. First, since projectiles are less prominent and have longer cooldowns, Marvin can't rely on them as much. The reduced space of the game also forces Marvin into more frontal situations. The slower speed makes it harder for him to escape and attack only when he has suffocated the enemies enough and trapped them completely. Another issue is that it is harder to place and direct the rocket. The zoomed-in camera also makes it harder for Marvin to know where the projectiles are.
@@topinhox7850 i think people are massively underating marvin. the best multiverse player recently did a tier list and put him as C tier. most of the comments on the multiversus official reddit in responce though say he should be much higher. and also the youtube comments too. this is probably because the game speed is so slow. thats why dodging projectiles is near impossible for most of the cast.
Your explanation of street fighter 6 & UMvC3 did miss key stuff. In UMvC3 team building plays a huge factor on speed of the game. Morrigan, Doom, Vergil is very zone heavy lame team that slows the games pace down a ton. SF6 or even older Street fighters can be very fast. 3rd strike Yun will legit just jump because as a character he has moves in which give him huge advantage, but also he has a super that's very oppressive. These are very specific, Good Video!
It still amazes me that people want the beta speed back The game is way more fun now since everyone isn’t moving around like the game is playing on fast forward
Hey I love your channel and your MVS videos! I was someone who thought the speed change was weird when Multiversus first came out but then I got slightly used to it, all I want is for the input buffer to be fixed 😭
MVS looked like it had great potential for whiff punishing, but there is a combination of factor (slow startup on most moves+ the odly little endlag on some specific random moves+ the hability to cancel part of the endlag with dodges) make the game devolve into a dodge spam fest were people just throw moves and dodge to cover them so in order to whiff punish (most of the time you won't) you have to just guess before they act, witch doesn't fit with the slower tipe of neutral. Aditionaly, the slow movement wakes it harder to deal with burst options (jump dashes and slides, mostly) in a way that devalorizes footsies.
I think a good way to satisfy more people with the speed of Multiversus is to add a perk that turns the dodge into more of a dash, so it would remove the I-frames but to compensate have the dodge be faster or go farther or make it have less lag or give the dodge infinite meter, or something valuable to compensate for losing your main defensive tool
@@Your_LocalWizard This would be a really interesting take tbh! Probably still keep access to parry and whatnot of course to ensure that it's not too much of a downside, but I think I'd be a nice way of allowing players to play at that faster pace while still keeping game plan structure intact. Now imagine if they took that perk and airwalker 💀
I tried final release multiversus (having never touched beta multiversus), and bounced in less than two hours because describing it as slow is generous, my adjective of choice was sluggish. The physics of the game felt like the fighters were fighting from inside a tub of jello pudding. Jumping was slow, running was slow, falling was slow, at that point the moves were almost secondary, just basic movement had this get-on-with-it energy.
I recently just started playing Multiversus, and I am not a fan of moves having cooldowns/ammo. It does feel very floaty, and being able to hover on the ground while performing an aerial feels so weird.
I think the polar opposite platform fighter in terms of speed might just be Rivals Of Aether. While melee is more known for being "the fast game", you have multiple defensive options like a shield or ledges at most times. However, in Rivals you only have 2 things: Air dodges and parrying. This combined with the fact that even the heaviest character packs good movement makes its neutral a really aggressive one while still letting the player escape disadvantage with strong DI.
I just wish MV was like 33% faster but I think everyone forgot how bad the jank/lag was when it was faster. Slower game must make the game a lot more stable.
I'm sorry but I have to disagree pretty heavily here. "The netcode of this game sucks, so let's just rework the entire game to be slower. That way it's less noticable that the game is running like a potato!" Or instead, y'know, they could've put in a tiny bit of effort and worked on the absolutely atrocious netcode. I believe it is indeed rollback, but is shockingly terrible for a game in 2024.
I lowkey gave up on this game for some of the reasons you gave about the speed, but I think they gotta work on the balance and overall presentation of the game, I don't personally look to play it competitively so it simply doesn't provide as much as other games from a quality and balance standpoint. That doesn't really relate to this video much but I wanted to say it anyways great video awesome editing and I like how you discussed other games it's clear you didn't just make random assumptions and actually know about the competitive scenes.
I kind of disagree with a handful of things here. I won't go into the details because a UA-cam comment isn't very appropriate for debating but overall, I would say the "speed" of a game isn''t so much about how many APM you need to have or how fast characters travel on screen, it's more about how quickly you shift from one situation to another. Fighting games are basically a series of RPS situations, and the essence of this genre is to evaluate in real time the risk and reward of every option at your disposal for every situation your opponent presents to you, as well as understanding your opponent's mental state/habits. The "speed" of the game is how quickly you have to ponder those options before the next situation comes in.
comparing Multiversus to Street Fighter is insulting. putting Street Fighter and MvC in the same basket is dishonest. This reinforces my idea that smash players see a motion input game and say "oh, that's the exact same gameplay as the rest of the other motion inputs game. anyway i'm gonna rank Ryu and Ken as F tiers because motion input too hawd D:" Multiversus and Smash are comparable because one is a blatant copy of the other, just not well made. Street and MvC AREN'T comparable because while they're fundamentally different.
My issue with Multiversus is that the way characters move just never looked right. Satisfying and clear movement is incredibly important in fighting games and this game just ain’t up to snuff. This applies to both the beta and full release. Oh also the predatory pricing structure
Game is a bit worse than beta because Freedom of movement is gone, along with different fighting styles each character had. Game is slower but less rewarding with way too much hitstun There are characters that are just not fun to fight, not because they are good, but because this game doesn't address the advantage dodge distance gives certain characters, making then safe.
please please please keep doing these types of videos. since core-a gaming hasnt uploaded in over a year ive been wanting more essay fighting game content that is also new player friendly. while this channel is primarily multiverses focused, id love more videos that mention other fighting games too like this one
I understand what you're getting at, but claiming that the defender has the advantage in Street Fighter isn't really accurate at all. If you mean that, in comparison to Marvel or Guilty Gear, the defender in SF has a reasonable chance of defending themselves, then sure. But to overly simplify, if being on defence was advantageous, every high level player in SF would never, ever go in, and would instead wait for the opponent to attempt something. Street Fighter favours the attacker. If nothing else, offence has the chance of dealing damage, and you can't win without doing any damage, but more reasonably, being on defence still stinks. While you're less likely to just explode like in Marvel, Skullgirls, DBFZ etc, you're still wildly disadvantaged. Being cornered and blocking or knocked down, and needing to still effectively guess between high, low, throw, crossup, and having access to far fewer moves and system mechanics compared to the attacker (who has all of them) is demonstrably bad.
Awesome video, amazing editing, and great narration, but I do have to push back on your section about melee. That is not what low level melee is like at all, and whiff punishing fox dair is like day 1 stuff for a marth. Even at absolute top level, hitting a marth’s shield is far from a guaranteed opening even for mango or ibdw. An advantage sure, but at low level nobody is mixing 500 different options and reading how you’ll react. True low level melee is dominated by dashback, plat camping, and shield grab. I’m a veteran falco, and often play my non-spacie secondaries against newer spacies, and trust me the shield pressure is far from airtight or oppressive, and I’m not using hyper technical options to escape, I’m just rolling at the right time, or grabbing. I think I would’ve included how technically difficult spacie shield pressure is, and how hard it is to account for all the different shield options your opponent can do and still get a good punish if they do roll, jump, spotdodge, wd back, light shield, grab, aerial etc. Yes fox has the tools to deal with all of those, but he has to guess just like the marth does. Anyway this is just a nitpick, I loved the video overall!
I was just watching this video calmly and did a double take when I saw my set vs ova9k for the first clip in the mvs section T-T I sold so bad in both of the youtube uploaded sets I played in that local... Great video btw! The street fighter to marvel comparison had me hooked from the beginning and gave me a lot to think about. New subscriber :)
Fascinating analysis, you really put into words what I feel about Beta MultiVersus: "it's fast but the hits are unsatisfying". But to me personally the fatal flaw of MultiVersus is how janky it feels, especially with the terrible hit/hurtboxes. I often get angrier that my attacks didn't connect when they should or that I got hit when I shouldn't than getting outplayed.
I cant tell if you're lying or were just misinformed but you said a lot of untrue stuff with regards to fighting games lol. My problem with multiversus has barely anything to do with the speed. I'm one of the 3 guys who liked brawl. Its the weird hitboxes combined with the floatiness buffer and burst ranges. It creates situations where, on paper you just made a massive commitment, but in practice you are more or less unpunishable and it feels insane to watch. even higher level games will have segements of people swinging for their fucking lives and just kind of missing, while also being unable to get a clean wiff punish. in response. I respect the slowdown because the flailing FELT much much worse in beta, but slowing it down just makes it look as bad as it used to feel.
That said tho fantastically edited video. Like Core A for platform fighters and i say that with the highest praise. Just try to make sure that when youre embellishing facts to make the narrative stronger you make it more obviously hyperbole/a joke.
Honestly. Thinking about it now. If the physics were more better, I would be enjoying this game MUCH more than I would. The airgame feels so weird to control even when you get used to it. As one comment has said, “its like controlling hot air balloons” except with no great statistics to make each of them feel somewhat different. Like when fast-falling, almost all of them feel like paper, and sometimes its hard to hit aerials because of this without getting punished unless you try to commit to approaching.
After playing the beta a lot and returning for the full release, Multiversus fumbled the bag in many areas, not only the speed. Characters being bigger was a good change, but platforms weren't adjusted for it. The whole shard system. Campaigns requiring you to get a second player to 100% it. The talent system being changed from something that worked well, maybe needing some tweaks, to something that is a complete downgrade. Characters were fast and floaty, now are just floaty. Animations are still quick, just have a weird stop at the end, to artificially extend the time between attacks. Outside of some edge cases, it also doesn't make the attacks feel as "heavy" hitting as they should. And while some ppl can enjoy the gameplay, for me it was the last nail in the coffin.
I always like to gush about melee cause once you figure out the pacing of the game and how to get out of pressure sequences you get... knowledge checked by somebody who's played the game 10 years more than you 😅
@@SSJPENGUIN to be fair I remember when I started playing to 2019 rolls were frowned upon in competitive play as being a newbie thing. Now top players are rolling a lot because it is actually a good option, especially when you mix it in to gameplay
@@loganreidy7055 You've just reminded me I had to re-learn to roll!! Came from Brawl & everyone slated rolling in Melee because it was always the same timing + distance etc etc But yeah in the modern meta it's a pretty useful/common option😫
Honestly street fighter isn't that slow. The last two Mortal Kombats feel slower to me. Actually, they might be better points of comparison. I wonder if some exec at WB is responsible for their last three fighters having very slow and needlessly fluid/unemphasized animations. Everything lacks punchiness and feels floaty, like action figures slamming into each other. I hate it.
I'm also going to put this out there the game was hard to follow. When watching matches it difficult to understand what the players were doing and I was someone who was playing the beta at the time. I can't imagine how someone who wasn't playing saw the game. The game needed to slow down and make characters lager for the more casual viewing audience and draw in more people now weather it would have succeeded in that or not is unknown because of the discussion around this very topic, some of the quality of life features being removed, and of course the monetization of the game we won't actually know.
I think instead of SF6, when you are talking about how street fighter is 'slow' - there should be a footage of SF4, or SF2. Because drive rush (and drive impact a bit) made it so that Reaction to the green slime into strike/throw, is required almost from halfscreen away.
My one issue with Multiversus right now is just bad the movement is. As what people below me have said, it's so in-the-middle and safe that it doesn't reward anyone for playing fast or playing patiently. It messes with my brain every time, because I think a move would hit, but it either whiffs barely or opens me up in a way I didn't mean it to.
When talking about the actual speed of a fighting game you can't just consider movement speed, you also have to consider attack speed. The fastest possible attacks in games like Soulcalibur and it's lesser brother, Tekken, clock in at MAYBE 10 frames (0 frames if we're talking about throws in Virtua Fighter) but 10 frames is how long it takes for Ken's "slow" Heavy Punch to hit the opponent while his crouching Medium Kick is only 7 frames. It's like this because when the developers rereleased the same game as SFII Turbo they just cranked up the speed of the game past what it was actually designed for because too many people played a hacked, broken version called Rainbow Edition and realized the actual game was slow and unfun. In summary, SF is both too slow AND too fast.
"Melee is Marvel, Multiversus is Street Fighter" is such a succint way of saying it I felt like I grasped everything I needed off the video in the first five seconds. Personally I feel far more conscious of what both me and my opponent are doing, far more mindful of how to punish a whiff or wait for an opening than I usually feel in a Smash game.
Multiversus is way too slow for me. Each attack, even the jabs, are a full animation production showcase instead of a functional button press attack. And not all of the attacks have a tanky impact to pay off for their anticipation and release. It's like you really have to plan ahead which attack you'll, and then put yourself in place, instead of fluidly moving in where you want, and then attacking the moment you press a button. Not talking about button lag, a complete 1/3 of second of anticipation after a button press kind of slow.
I don't think it's only about the slowness of the gameplay when people talk about Multiversus' slowness, street fighter is slow paced but you've still got some action to watch and the movements and action feel more stiff than slow (the quick chains of moves to pressure a blocking oponent are visually quick), and when you get an opening you've got a shiny combo. While in Multiversus you're watching someone trying to run while being held to the bottom of a swimming pool by weights, it's super floaty and the movements feel slow, in street fighter you get to see the oponents face to face, searching for an opening, carefully approaching (the animation communicate this very well), in Multiversus you see them jumping around until one get an opening and then immediately back to normal, the only combos are either 2 move long or clanky af infinites. In Multiversus we don't get to see the war of attrition that plays in street fighter, partly because they choose to go for a plat fighter, and with the very free movement that comes with it.
The speed in this game is alright. The beta speed for Multiversus felt right, so i still feel very fond of the speed of the game back then. I think my biggest gripe with the game when it comes to its speed is the inconsistencies with the hits. Marvels speed satisfaction works well as most of the moves that a character has will connect well with one another, thus leading to people being astonished by how well a fast paced game like Marvel or Smash Bros due to how combos and character traits impact the momentum of the game. As for Multiversus, a lot of moves are reactable, but then there are some moves that feel like they dont connect well at all with other moves, thus making the game play feel slow since a player will feel more inclined to use the same move due to the possibilities to land decent enough damage on another player being high. I feel this the most with Jason and Joker. With Joker, you'll get the same bait of a forward tilt and then the occasional one move mix up adds to the pacing of the game. Meanwhile Jason has a SHIT TON of moves that dont connect with the other player at all. Moves that are unnecessarily too slow. Moves that have a missing hitbox. I can write a whole list of Jasons weaknesses based on the pacing of the game. Basically, the speed of Multiversus does not have room for enticing mix ups or interesting gameplay moves as tons of characters, not just Jason or Joker exclusive, have paing issues with their moves that has players commit to the same formulaic combo which immensely slow down the game, making it feel very slow, thus unrewarding to play at a high level.
The problem with the speed before was that it made the game too similar to melee. Which is a good distraction for melee players for a while but eventually it loses its new toy feel and they just go back to the game they have been playing for years. With the completely new play style it can now get players for a complete different niche rather than trying to capitalize on an already existent games fanbase.
I think the new speed is a huge improvement. I played a ton of the beta, but i'm enjoying the game a lot more now. I like whiff punishing and mindgames
My problem with MultiVersus isn’t with the game’s speed, but rather the game’s weight. Every character feel like they’re heavy regardless of what type they are. I don’t even hate MultiVersus, I like MultiVersus, I enjoyed playing it, probably one of the only Free to Play games that’s actually fun. But I think the game’s weight just makes the game difficult to complete, when it comes to the campaigns. Still, the movements are better then what the Nick All-Star Brawl Games had. Good video though
I'm not sure that I agree that offense is strong at lower levels of melee. Basic defense like crouch cancelling exposes lots of players new to competitive melee
> Strive > Fast Bro would have an aneurism if he saw an actual anime fighter instead of the slow ass, snail paced garbage masquerading as an anime fighter.
As a melee player, I actually like that theres an alternative platform fighter that rewards defense more, because every other platform fighter is either trying to be melee, or melee but slightly slower and with way worse punish game.
The problem with multiversus is one the slowness of all move set makes the game unbalanced, all top tier are there cause they have less frame before frames with hitboxes, or larger hitboxes. Two, cause of the slowness of animations and hitboxes, the best strat is to wait an oponent to attack and dodge, making characters with projectiles easier cause they don't need to approach. Three, the dodge button can be spam multiples times, meaning even if you read a dodge, your opponent can dodge a second time and have less frames of weakness. Four, if you had just an hability to dodge, that would be ok, but this hability can make your character dash, meaning even if you ran out of dodge bar, you can dash, with all characters. Four and an half, this dash can be used aggresivly, making the game better for speed character, they could burn all the bar and still have the advantage against you, they can extends combo, react to your dodge by a dodge and cause they are faster, they continue to run away or follow you. They choose what you have to do and they can wif and dodge after. To conclude, the problem isn't the speed, but only the lag frame you need to have on certain habilities and on the dodge. Like in smash, dodge not allow you to intantly attack, on multiversus, you could dodge and attack. ( We ain't talk about hitboxes for some heroes that aren't were they are supposed to be, or just move set are making it hard to understand were they are supposed to be )
My issue is just how floaty the game feels. Characters have no weight to them. I just feel so weightless when Im in the air compared to other fighters, not a good feeling for me
I think the people who say MV is too slow either haven’t played MV, or haven’t played the right characters. Sure, some characters like Tanks prefer a slower play style, but have you SEEN how quickly a character like Harley, Bugs, or Finn can rack up damage on the opponent? All it takes are the right characters and the knowledge of what moves they have to make this game go from slow to quick. I’ve been playing since the beta and I’ve gotta say both versions were fun. Not for speed reasons, but balancing reasons. As a Harley main, this “slower” version of MV is still just as good as, if not better than the beta, because it really just makes the game more accessible to people, and that lets you play against a wide variety of styles.
I played beta multiversus for over 1000 hours (lot of clips on my channel) and I loved it The new speed is fine, I preferred the beta, but the new speed is much better for the general playerbase and makes the game's neutral more thoughtful, as reacting to your opponent is easier
I can't speak for a ton of folk but my only issue with the beta was dodge spam. People say that hitstun wasn't big but the beta had combos. Like 0-60% combos but you had to make 3-4 hard reads to even get to the punish game. New Multiversus is slower but the core is there. I was willing to make the adjustment but instead of fixing the main problem, they revamped the entire game. They got rid of the insane punish game that took practice in favor for the equivalent of the Ding Dong. Movement wasn't as impactful anymore and the game was still really, really mashy. It's probably fixed now but on launch they had 30 frames of input buffer, which made the game feel unresponsive. You'd be trying to dash dance one moment and then the game says we're going right despite the stick pointing left. It was a mess and after about 2 hours of play, I uninstalled the game.
Hearing what you value in a tradfighter I have to recommend archus chroma. An upcoming indie fighting game with a low skill floor and a huge skill sealing with deep and rewarding neutral and combos
I actually don't mind the new MVS speed, but the main problem is in the input delay. 30 frames is a lot, and combined with the slower speed of the game makes the new MVS feel sluggish and unresponsive.
@@RPS_FGC Oh cool, I didn't know that. Might have the give the game one more chance. Granted, the input delay wasn't the only thing keeping me away (the monetization and FOMO aspects are horrible), but that's a great change at least.
A games speed can also entirely depend on the matchup, for sonic the fighters the character i main bark is the character that requires a significant amount of spacing to work effectively, and while every character requires that quite alot bark requires some of the most out of the cast other than the zoners, and the fastest character with the most shmovement is sonic (crazy am i right) so its like im trying to fight a fast game character while im in a slow game character, keep in mind sonic the fighters is a more slow game than most and reading is heavily important, so sonic isnt too bad but bark doesnt make it easy.
Gotta love when a new platform-fighter “smash killer” drops and it fails for not doing any of the things smash nails perfectly. “Gameplay is way more important than graphics!” So aside from terrible balancing, slow pacing, and being defense-sided… what is the number one complaint we all see about multiversus?? IT. LOOKS. TERRIBLE.
I honestly prefer the pace of the Multiversus beta since I can use my more aggressive but adaptive style more easily, and everything just feels way too floaty (I learned from playing Mario 3 that I'm not really good with the floatier 2D games). Batman's Grapple actually works now and I like the Dash Attacks though.
Great video. I recently discovered Multiversus, and I was always a fan of Street Fighter and not very fan of vs series,and your video touch on why I really loved this game. I didn’t play the beta, but I really like the current version.
What's your thoughts on the games speed? Do you like the new speed? Prefer the old Multiversus?
I personally think that we can meet a happy middle ground with enough time with satisfying movement, yet high commitment gameplay that keeps players considerate of what options they choose.
Let me know what you think!
Well I already commented part of my thoughts, but I can add some more things.
I feel like at of the "essence" of the game has been stripped away. The game had a higher focus on the 2v2 in the beta, and they had a bigger focus on gimmick movesets. This is pretty much gone or reduced. They have so little focus on the 2v2 now that they even removed the support role lol.
I agree the 1v1 in Multiversus wasn't really that great, but remember what made this game special was the 2v2. I think the best thing they should have done must have been to reduce dodges, and increase SLIGHTLY the size of the characters, so they don't end up going circles around each other in 1v1s.
In this way the game is still focused on the 2v2, and the main idea isn't gone, but those who want to play 1v1 are offered a way better gameplay.
I miss crackhead MultiVersus 😔
It’s good they slowed it but they went too far also the new dodge meter punished aggressors a bit too much I understand it to disinsentivise dodge slam but it definitely hurts the approach options too much
Also the balance needs sone tweaking abd the geversl philosophy of it especially since they just stuck a cool-down on WW and that doesn’t do anything but annoy both sides
As an avid player of both the beta and the full release. I liked both speeds equally. The slower speed is much more competitive (at least to me) and makes combos feel so much more satisfying, but with that being said, the beta speed allowed for a lot more casual fun as well as more (for a lack of a better term) “controlled chaos”, especially in twos, where more things would be thrown around widely. I don’t mind either speed and if they were to change it back I wouldn’t be complaining. But that’s just me 😅
Old multiversus was just who can spam attacks at their opponents better. Despite it's flaws new multiversus feels so much better to play
The slowness of the game is not what’s keeping me from enjoying playing/watching it. It’s the overall physics and the way characters move around the screen. It looks less like characters in an arena fighting and more like characters flying around the screen doing animations that happen to hit. Why do the characters stay in the air for so long when jumping, and why does momentum look like that…??
The movement and physics are based on Brawlhalla's. That's why.
@@gusgarrison9211brawlhalla actually controls good tho (very different from smash but in its own right really tight)
Multiversus controls like a vague description of what brawlhalla plays like from a smash veteran after a single 15 minutes session
I have no other way of explaining multiversus's physics other then it feels like im controlling hot air balloons that get weighed down by anvils
@@RandomGreenKirb This is so real omg, and the anvils also explain why move take 1.5 second to come out, it's all because the characters struggle to initiate the movement due to the weight of the anvils.
It's this way because the game wants to reward aerial combat and chasing off-stage more than any plat fighter
I don't think this comparison works as much as you think it does only for a single reason: animation and gravity.
Street fighter may be a slower game, but it doesn't fall anywhere near the kind of game multiversus does mainly because everything in SF looks and feels heavy. All of the animations and hits are tight and impactful making it feel like each interaction actually has some level of push back. Multiversus looks, and feels like two kids on a trampoline wacking each other with balloons.
The startup and pay off of every animation in the game is awful, even jumping. It's like the devs looked at how sora works in smash and went "yeah that's the kind of speed we want".
I feel like Sam sho is a better comparison in terms of speed.
i totally agree
the lack of snappy animation makes the feel of the game so awful
Yeah, one of the things that keep Smash still on top of the platform fighter scene is that its gameplay feel is one of the best, both in Melee and Ultimate.
Melee has a good presentation for a GCN game developed in around a year, but its tight execution makes up for the lack of flashiness compared to modern titles. As the Doom CM put it, "you control the buttons you press", and that makes things impactful for players. Plus, the free flow movement is part of what keeps it enjoyable to watch.
Ultimate makes up for its questionable at times buffer and more restricted movement (there's a reason people say maneuvering platforms is the hardest tech in the game) with an incredible presentation, animation and sound design. Hits look AND feel impactful, especially with how knockback works, and the final stock kill screen is hype as hell. The game feels great and hits a very sweet middle ground in terms of speed (most of the time).
When i look at new Multiversus gameplay, characters feel floaty like balloons and always in coyote time.
It doesn’t work at all, this video is ridiculous
@@williamalbatross4677 Yeah, I dont know what this guy was on when he was talking about whiff punishes, they dont exist in MV, every player online just spams after a whiff and it hits most of the time because the hitboxes are awful. The whole game is built as easy as possible to actually win against a better opponent
Technically the first “juiced up” version of Street Fighter was Darkstalkers. That series became the bridge between traditional Street Fighter and turbo versus games which eventually gave us Children of the Atom, the start of the Versus series.
in melee touch of deaths aren’t just won from one interaction, you will need to read your opponent multiple times, yes in melee characters explode but it’s from fast decisions from both players
Sup
-icies player
@@nickq8093 wobbling is banned and hand offs aren’t free
@@achilles8 i know lol, i'm not taking a dig at icies, i *AM* an icies player.
While handoffs aren't free, they're still not that hard as melee stuff goes and sometimes you still just take someone's stock from a grab at 0% that is basically unescapable without pre-mash. Handoff rng be like that
@@nickq8093 my b
@@achilles8 alg my guy
6:20 Multiversus would be pretty hard to play at a party since you only get like 2 characters without paying
you used to be able to play with every character unlocked in offline Vs. mode in the beta, but I think they took that out potentially? idk I haven't bothered with the relaunch, way better games out there now I'd rather invest my time into
@@BronzeAgePepper a party would use co-op mode
The problem with multiversus is the physics and animations. They feel sluggish, and like the characters float around while moving like ragdolls.
Also, the momentum feels nonexistent. It feels like there’s no gravity in the game and it seems like the characters just stop in midair
My problem with the speed of the game is that it seems uncommitted to either being a fast or slow game, making it feel like the worst of both worlds.
The movement is shafted, and that's the one that is most talked about with it feeling like the game is no longer fast. However...
Dodge spam is still very much a problem (and the meter is not punishing enough for most of the cast), as are noncommittal moves that only around half of the cast have while the other half just don't have noncommittal moves for some reason. This makes the game not feel like a slow paced game, since the slow game fundamentals discussed in this video don't really apply for Multiversus. I think this is what makes Multiversus feel so unappealing to so many people, because it is not committed to one style of play or the other. While I don't dislike the game, I really would prefer if the game commits to one of either style of game speed.
I agree that the dodge system is a HUGE pain point for the game right now. Characters across the board don't have as much end lag as they should.
I think a big reason they try to make dodges so good and non-committal though is because it's also most characters primary way of whiff punishing, so it's difficult to find a balance where dodges can be good ways to whiff punish, but also not so outrageous that the gameplay devolves back into dodge spam.
It's going to be a rough tightrope to walk for sure, but I do have faith that Player1st will push out consistent updates to address these concerns until they've found a good balance.
@@RPS_FGCa good solution imo is for dashes to be able to be interrupted by attacks, but otherwise have longer endlag. You can whiff punish but if you dodge u have to commit to a longer anim or to tossing out a hitbox, opening yourself up to a whiff punish
That "gambling" section was hilarious
its from a raxdflipnote video
Raxdflipnote has infected the internet with humor
the uprise of raxdflipnote must be studied for future generations
For me the biggest problem with Multiversus is honestly character design. If you have no context for any of these characters there's a very good chance a lot of their best gameplans are some combination of jab, down air, up air, up special. It makes the game feel extremely stale when half the roster's win condition is some variation of a ladder combo with the top of the tier list getting their ladder kills at 40% and lower half killing off the top at 120%.
There are 26 characters in the game as of the Joker patch and I'd say at least 20 of these characters primarily rely on this ladder combo.
Don't forget that every people abuse of ladder combos, but what about combos that sending you on sides ? Some characters are better to kill on side, but most of the map don't allow it.
As someone who plays a lot of fighting games, I have to both agree and disagree with some of your takes.
I definitely agree that Melee is a fast paced game that sometimes disproportionately rewards agressive play at lower levels. The defender typically will only have a few options to escape back to neutral, while the aggressor almost always has a laundry list of mixups that can cover multiple of said options.
However, I don't agree with Street Fighter being "slow." It's true that SF is typically known for footsies and grounded play, but that doesn't necessarily make the game slow. Sf6, SF3, and SF2 feel very fast and offense-oriented. In addition, the various mechanics in each game such as the parry, V-trigger, ultra, and drive rush systems all serve to enhance offense and emphasize that holding block is the _worst_ position to be in.
On the topic of MV, I feel that the main issue isn't even necessarily the slow frame data, or the hitstun. It's the ridiculous floatiness and the *30 frames* of input buffering that make it feel like you cant properly space. If they wanted to take this approach, they should have copied games like Samurai Shodown, where it's practically the norm for characters to have absurd range and disjoints, but it's balanced out by the slow and methodical nature of the neutral game. As it stands right now, I don't think it's fair to say that people who preferred the fast feeling of the MV beta simply don't enjoy it now because they "don't like slow gameplay." I think the bigger issue here is that the MV devs seem clueless as to what makes slow gameplay interesting and complex. Right now, you have no control of the space around you, and both characters float around the screen, aimlessly putting out hitboxes and praying for a connect.
Street fighter isnt slow overall but definitely slow compared to alot of the fast paced fighters like strive, blazblue. Dragonball, etc. Although there are slower games, Id say its more on the slower spectrum of fighting games. Yes theres things like drive rush but the overall neutral just plays alot more strict and punishing and slower than most titles.
Thing about mvs ill agree its a bit floaty for my taste. The new input buffer settings feel great though. Used to think it played extremely slow and floaty while playing it like how i would normally play smash. But watching higher levels of play the game is clearly designed to be played differently and still plays surprisingly fast. Dodge meter almost serves as drive rush in this game for combo extenders and closing the distance in neutral. Beta had a ton of complaints about the speed and dodge spamming too.
Honestly melee doesn’t even reward aggression at mid and low levels, it’s much easier to shield grab than it is to drillshine well.
i disagree with saying sf2 isnt slow when zoning is the major dominant strategy. if you cant be extremely patient to get in against fireballs you lose
melee is ultimatelly a deffensive game
Unless drill is completely fresh (unusual unless it's the first attack of the stock) you can just shield grab. Nair shine is closer to what you were going for in your example.
@@Harry-c6e4h Ty for the clarification. Melee isn't my specialty tbh, but I always encourage more clarity.
every video essay-ist ever just loves epic drama without any genuine research or genuinely verified belief
@@SleepingChimes god forbid someone not have a perfect and peerless understanding of a two decade old game lmao
@@plus9775 maybe you’re right but it should be better anyway
Everything in the world would be better if everyone never made any mistakes I guess your right In a way that will never be the case.
Nice video, needs a follow-up called “No, Multiversus isn’t Brawl”.
And yet 90% of the Smash community will continue to call it Brawl or worse.
Brawl was a funny game though.
@@just-linx8271 Brawl was a great game. My favorite Smash game for sure.
@@tobimakkuraI’m a smash bros fan and Multiversus has combos that don’t rely on grabbing your opponent, so it’s not like Brawl
@@tobimakkuraI feel like appreciation + respect for brawl's only grown since the other games have released
Now it's just another entry in the series rather than the latest game
To be honest I prefer Multiversus when it was in beta mainly because I felt like I could do whatever I wanted when it came to movement, but with the full release of Multiversus I feel like I cant move even when I know an attack is coming, I cant play the way I want to play anymore, Them changing the speed of the game is to big of a change for me and because of that I don't think I can enjoy the game anymore.
"people would mog you in the back alley if you threw them too many times" This still exist in the form of what's called "casual players" (referred as "the shower takers" in the holy ancient street fighter guide). My father's 50 and he still gets mad when I throw more than 2 fireball a round (mind you he knows how to block and he play SFV Bison, who can litterally slide across half the terrain only using normals).
Mug not mog jesus christ
Did your dad grow up with MK? In classic MKs you could only throw 1 projectile at a time.
@@deathtrooper2048 Nah he played street fighter very casually since the 2nd, but he never abandonned the idea of winning by mashing and he's angry when we don't let him do that (tho I have never tried to play a full match by just blocking everything he throws and punishing when I can, the temptation to fireball is too high).
the characters just don’t feel as good to move around and fight with compared to a smash type game, i can’t really explain why they fell heavy but light
Easy, every character feels like you're playing King DeeDee. You're big, slow, and heavy, but also filled with helium.
Guilty Gear Strive too fast HAHAHAHAHA
“a faster game isn’t always a better game” the story of nasb1
Yeah that game was insanely fast but kinda trash
Nasb was the goat
@@shrimpchris6580 I thought it was really fun in short bursts but the movement wasn't thought out enough
The franchise's reputation would've been much stronger if the second game had been the first
What's nasb?
@@awildnoviceappears Nickelodeon All Stars Brawl
Man I was grinding the hell out of the beta. After waiting a whole year for it to come back only to find it not even remotely close to the game I loved while also getting jammed full of insane MTX/PvE grinds just killed it for me. Have not touched the game past the first week of the relaunch.
This was a fascinating topic to explore, I'd love to see you talk about the general movement philosophy of more games! What about other Smash games, what about Tekken, what about Rivals of Aether?
For me personally, I really liked the game feel of Smash 4, but when I moved over to Ultimate everything felt... horribly slow and clunky. It took a long time to re-learn how to play. I also think it's interesting how many players complain about Sonic- he's probably one of the most frustrating characters to play against purely because of his speed.
I've always loved Tekken because it feels slow enough that you can easily understaand what you're doing wrong; meanwhile I've been trying to get into Rivals lately, but the more I play it the more I absolutely despise it, it's SO fast and often I feel powerless to do anything against my opponent because things are happening far faster than I'm able to react.
Also shoutouts to Spiritfall for having the best platform fighter gameplay don't @ me it's true
I guess the main reason why I fell off MvS both times was the fact that there wasn't any consistency on who could be played as. It was the character rotation and monetization system that pushed me away.
MvS's game speed could easily hit a great sweetspot. But until the developers make everybody from the base roster free to use (aka the folks from the initial beta roster up to Lebron) I don't see myself playing.
Addendum: This change I'm proposing would mean that you'd have to unlock Rick, Morty, Gizmo, Stripe, Black Adam, Marvin, The Joker, Jason, Banana Guard, and Agent Smith. So I think WB could still make them buyable ot let players grind for 'em. But I feel it's important for the game to have a base roster that's usable at all times.
I dont have an issue with the current GAME speed, i have an issue with current JASON speed (his attack & movement speed)... Along with his hitbox/hurtbox issues and the hitstun of his moves compared to the rest of the cast
@@derrickrobinson7269 Trust me brother, as a fellow Jason main, it's tough out here. We can hope that the patch on Tuesday is all the help we need.
@@RPS_FGCparche del lunes dirás
Hot take, but I think Jason is great; not perfect, but great. I consider him a high risk, high reward character, and I believe he shines best in 2’s, if you can synchronize with your partner, you can get a lot of hard hits and early kills with Jason. If you don’t go swinging Willy nilly, and you try to catch your opponent after they dodge, you can get the hits. I believe overall, Jason is a character who takes SKILL.
The problem with Multivesus is that it was designed with focus on the speed first, and then changed it. Basically all the characters playstyles were based on that, and when they changed it, well, they basically made a big mess.
Practically all characters have been "ruined" in a way, as their movesets arent meant for this new gameplay.
Apart from this drastic change, theres another problem i have always mentioned.
Platform fighters need lots of space and mobility, so a 2v2 platform fighter needs even more, so why reduce it? Yes, the game feels more like SF now, but it hasnt near the complexity of that game, as the core gameplay isnt based around that kind of gameplay.
Edit: Apart from all this, as the other guys have said, good vid. You deserve way more followers man
I found a post I made about how the changes affected my old main, Marvin, so I'll just copy paste it here.
Marvin's whole gimmick is that he has absolute control over the map and the projectiles. You have to pay attention to the enemies's projectiles so you can catch them, pay attention to your own projectiles, so you can redirect them, and pay attention to your cooldowns, so you don't end up overcommitting and running out of projectiles, which are Marvin's strength.
However, the new gameplay approach in the full release makes projectiles less effective and gives them longer cooldowns. This is because, with reduced mobility, it would be impossible to dodge so many projectiles. This change messes up Marvin's whole playstyle for various reasons. First, since projectiles are less prominent and have longer cooldowns, Marvin can't rely on them as much. The reduced space of the game also forces Marvin into more frontal situations. The slower speed makes it harder for him to escape and attack only when he has suffocated the enemies enough and trapped them completely. Another issue is that it is harder to place and direct the rocket. The zoomed-in camera also makes it harder for Marvin to know where the projectiles are.
100%
@@topinhox7850 i think people are massively underating marvin. the best multiverse player recently did a tier list and put him as C tier. most of the comments on the multiversus official reddit in responce though say he should be much higher. and also the youtube comments too. this is probably because the game speed is so slow. thats why dodging projectiles is near impossible for most of the cast.
Love your videos man, keep up the good work.
Your explanation of street fighter 6 & UMvC3 did miss key stuff. In UMvC3 team building plays a huge factor on speed of the game. Morrigan, Doom, Vergil is very zone heavy lame team that slows the games pace down a ton.
SF6 or even older Street fighters can be very fast. 3rd strike Yun will legit just jump because as a character he has moves in which give him huge advantage, but also he has a super that's very oppressive.
These are very specific, Good Video!
It still amazes me that people want the beta speed back
The game is way more fun now since everyone isn’t moving around like the game is playing on fast forward
Hey I love your channel and your MVS videos!
I was someone who thought the speed change was weird when Multiversus first came out but then I got slightly used to it, all I want is for the input buffer to be fixed 😭
MVS looked like it had great potential for whiff punishing, but there is a combination of factor (slow startup on most moves+ the odly little endlag on some specific random moves+ the hability to cancel part of the endlag with dodges) make the game devolve into a dodge spam fest were people just throw moves and dodge to cover them so in order to whiff punish (most of the time you won't) you have to just guess before they act, witch doesn't fit with the slower tipe of neutral.
Aditionaly, the slow movement wakes it harder to deal with burst options (jump dashes and slides, mostly) in a way that devalorizes footsies.
I think a good way to satisfy more people with the speed of Multiversus is to add a perk that turns the dodge into more of a dash, so it would remove the I-frames but to compensate have the dodge be faster or go farther or make it have less lag or give the dodge infinite meter, or something valuable to compensate for losing your main defensive tool
@@Your_LocalWizard This would be a really interesting take tbh! Probably still keep access to parry and whatnot of course to ensure that it's not too much of a downside, but I think I'd be a nice way of allowing players to play at that faster pace while still keeping game plan structure intact.
Now imagine if they took that perk and airwalker 💀
I tried final release multiversus (having never touched beta multiversus), and bounced in less than two hours because describing it as slow is generous, my adjective of choice was sluggish. The physics of the game felt like the fighters were fighting from inside a tub of jello pudding. Jumping was slow, running was slow, falling was slow, at that point the moves were almost secondary, just basic movement had this get-on-with-it energy.
I recently just started playing Multiversus, and I am not a fan of moves having cooldowns/ammo. It does feel very floaty, and being able to hover on the ground while performing an aerial feels so weird.
I think the polar opposite platform fighter in terms of speed might just be Rivals Of Aether. While melee is more known for being "the fast game", you have multiple defensive options like a shield or ledges at most times. However, in Rivals you only have 2 things: Air dodges and parrying.
This combined with the fact that even the heaviest character packs good movement makes its neutral a really aggressive one while still letting the player escape disadvantage with strong DI.
I just wish MV was like 33% faster but I think everyone forgot how bad the jank/lag was when it was faster. Slower game must make the game a lot more stable.
I'm sorry but I have to disagree pretty heavily here. "The netcode of this game sucks, so let's just rework the entire game to be slower. That way it's less noticable that the game is running like a potato!"
Or instead, y'know, they could've put in a tiny bit of effort and worked on the absolutely atrocious netcode. I believe it is indeed rollback, but is shockingly terrible for a game in 2024.
my guy, they made it slower AND the netcode still sucks
He did it bros
I lowkey gave up on this game for some of the reasons you gave about the speed, but I think they gotta work on the balance and overall presentation of the game, I don't personally look to play it competitively so it simply doesn't provide as much as other games from a quality and balance standpoint. That doesn't really relate to this video much but I wanted to say it anyways great video awesome editing and I like how you discussed other games it's clear you didn't just make random assumptions and actually know about the competitive scenes.
The production quality on this video deserves more recognition, and your takes are quality.
Man... multiversus is dookie
I kind of disagree with a handful of things here. I won't go into the details because a UA-cam comment isn't very appropriate for debating but overall, I would say the "speed" of a game isn''t so much about how many APM you need to have or how fast characters travel on screen, it's more about how quickly you shift from one situation to another.
Fighting games are basically a series of RPS situations, and the essence of this genre is to evaluate in real time the risk and reward of every option at your disposal for every situation your opponent presents to you, as well as understanding your opponent's mental state/habits. The "speed" of the game is how quickly you have to ponder those options before the next situation comes in.
Don't forget the input buffer being way too high. You can't even change it anymore. I KEEP DOING RANDOM ASS EXTRA BUTTONS 2 DAYS LATER
Idm if its slow but its so damn floaty
comparing Multiversus to Street Fighter is insulting. putting Street Fighter and MvC in the same basket is dishonest. This reinforces my idea that smash players see a motion input game and say "oh, that's the exact same gameplay as the rest of the other motion inputs game. anyway i'm gonna rank Ryu and Ken as F tiers because motion input too hawd D:"
Multiversus and Smash are comparable because one is a blatant copy of the other, just not well made.
Street and MvC AREN'T comparable because while they're fundamentally different.
My issue with Multiversus is that the way characters move just never looked right. Satisfying and clear movement is incredibly important in fighting games and this game just ain’t up to snuff. This applies to both the beta and full release.
Oh also the predatory pricing structure
Game is a bit worse than beta because
Freedom of movement is gone, along with different fighting styles each character had.
Game is slower but less rewarding with way too much hitstun
There are characters that are just not fun to fight, not because they are good, but because this game doesn't address the advantage dodge distance gives certain characters, making then safe.
please please please keep doing these types of videos. since core-a gaming hasnt uploaded in over a year ive been wanting more essay fighting game content that is also new player friendly. while this channel is primarily multiverses focused, id love more videos that mention other fighting games too like this one
I understand what you're getting at, but claiming that the defender has the advantage in Street Fighter isn't really accurate at all. If you mean that, in comparison to Marvel or Guilty Gear, the defender in SF has a reasonable chance of defending themselves, then sure. But to overly simplify, if being on defence was advantageous, every high level player in SF would never, ever go in, and would instead wait for the opponent to attempt something.
Street Fighter favours the attacker. If nothing else, offence has the chance of dealing damage, and you can't win without doing any damage, but more reasonably, being on defence still stinks. While you're less likely to just explode like in Marvel, Skullgirls, DBFZ etc, you're still wildly disadvantaged. Being cornered and blocking or knocked down, and needing to still effectively guess between high, low, throw, crossup, and having access to far fewer moves and system mechanics compared to the attacker (who has all of them) is demonstrably bad.
Awesome video, amazing editing, and great narration, but I do have to push back on your section about melee. That is not what low level melee is like at all, and whiff punishing fox dair is like day 1 stuff for a marth. Even at absolute top level, hitting a marth’s shield is far from a guaranteed opening even for mango or ibdw. An advantage sure, but at low level nobody is mixing 500 different options and reading how you’ll react. True low level melee is dominated by dashback, plat camping, and shield grab. I’m a veteran falco, and often play my non-spacie secondaries against newer spacies, and trust me the shield pressure is far from airtight or oppressive, and I’m not using hyper technical options to escape, I’m just rolling at the right time, or grabbing. I think I would’ve included how technically difficult spacie shield pressure is, and how hard it is to account for all the different shield options your opponent can do and still get a good punish if they do roll, jump, spotdodge, wd back, light shield, grab, aerial etc. Yes fox has the tools to deal with all of those, but he has to guess just like the marth does.
Anyway this is just a nitpick, I loved the video overall!
Multiversus's physics honestly feel awful
Feels like im controlling a hot air balloon that is being weighed down by a shotput
i really enjoy movement in games and multiverse’s beta felt so fun and free to move in, now it feels stiff
I was just watching this video calmly and did a double take when I saw my set vs ova9k for the first clip in the mvs section T-T
I sold so bad in both of the youtube uploaded sets I played in that local...
Great video btw! The street fighter to marvel comparison had me hooked from the beginning and gave me a lot to think about. New subscriber :)
I know little about Multiversus - this was pretty fun and informative :)
Tell me you don't play fighting games without telling me you don't play fighting games.
good video, subscribed
Thank god you can buffer roll with c stick in melee thats all i gotta say about shine pressure
Fascinating analysis, you really put into words what I feel about Beta MultiVersus: "it's fast but the hits are unsatisfying". But to me personally the fatal flaw of MultiVersus is how janky it feels, especially with the terrible hit/hurtboxes. I often get angrier that my attacks didn't connect when they should or that I got hit when I shouldn't than getting outplayed.
I cant tell if you're lying or were just misinformed but you said a lot of untrue stuff with regards to fighting games lol.
My problem with multiversus has barely anything to do with the speed. I'm one of the 3 guys who liked brawl. Its the weird hitboxes combined with the floatiness buffer and burst ranges. It creates situations where, on paper you just made a massive commitment, but in practice you are more or less unpunishable and it feels insane to watch. even higher level games will have segements of people swinging for their fucking lives and just kind of missing, while also being unable to get a clean wiff punish. in response. I respect the slowdown because the flailing FELT much much worse in beta, but slowing it down just makes it look as bad as it used to feel.
That said tho fantastically edited video. Like Core A for platform fighters and i say that with the highest praise. Just try to make sure that when youre embellishing facts to make the narrative stronger you make it more obviously hyperbole/a joke.
Honestly. Thinking about it now. If the physics were more better, I would be enjoying this game MUCH more than I would.
The airgame feels so weird to control even when you get used to it. As one comment has said, “its like controlling hot air balloons” except with no great statistics to make each of them feel somewhat different. Like when fast-falling, almost all of them feel like paper, and sometimes its hard to hit aerials because of this without getting punished unless you try to commit to approaching.
After playing the beta a lot and returning for the full release, Multiversus fumbled the bag in many areas, not only the speed. Characters being bigger was a good change, but platforms weren't adjusted for it. The whole shard system. Campaigns requiring you to get a second player to 100% it. The talent system being changed from something that worked well, maybe needing some tweaks, to something that is a complete downgrade. Characters were fast and floaty, now are just floaty. Animations are still quick, just have a weird stop at the end, to artificially extend the time between attacks. Outside of some edge cases, it also doesn't make the attacks feel as "heavy" hitting as they should. And while some ppl can enjoy the gameplay, for me it was the last nail in the coffin.
I always like to gush about melee cause once you figure out the pacing of the game and how to get out of pressure sequences you get... knowledge checked by somebody who's played the game 10 years more than you 😅
I've been playing since 2014 & only in February learned/realises how much stuff loses to buffered roll 😫
@@SSJPENGUIN to be fair I remember when I started playing to 2019 rolls were frowned upon in competitive play as being a newbie thing. Now top players are rolling a lot because it is actually a good option, especially when you mix it in to gameplay
@@loganreidy7055 You've just reminded me I had to re-learn to roll!!
Came from Brawl & everyone slated rolling in Melee because it was always the same timing + distance etc etc
But yeah in the modern meta it's a pretty useful/common option😫
@@loganreidy7055 rolls were definitely not frowned upon in 2019 lol some characters might have shit rolls tho
Honestly street fighter isn't that slow. The last two Mortal Kombats feel slower to me. Actually, they might be better points of comparison. I wonder if some exec at WB is responsible for their last three fighters having very slow and needlessly fluid/unemphasized animations. Everything lacks punchiness and feels floaty, like action figures slamming into each other. I hate it.
I'm also going to put this out there the game was hard to follow. When watching matches it difficult to understand what the players were doing and I was someone who was playing the beta at the time. I can't imagine how someone who wasn't playing saw the game. The game needed to slow down and make characters lager for the more casual viewing audience and draw in more people now weather it would have succeeded in that or not is unknown because of the discussion around this very topic, some of the quality of life features being removed, and of course the monetization of the game we won't actually know.
I think instead of SF6, when you are talking about how street fighter is 'slow' - there should be a footage of SF4, or SF2. Because drive rush (and drive impact a bit) made it so that Reaction to the green slime into strike/throw, is required almost from halfscreen away.
My one issue with Multiversus right now is just bad the movement is. As what people below me have said, it's so in-the-middle and safe that it doesn't reward anyone for playing fast or playing patiently. It messes with my brain every time, because I think a move would hit, but it either whiffs barely or opens me up in a way I didn't mean it to.
When talking about the actual speed of a fighting game you can't just consider movement speed, you also have to consider attack speed. The fastest possible attacks in games like Soulcalibur and it's lesser brother, Tekken, clock in at MAYBE 10 frames (0 frames if we're talking about throws in Virtua Fighter) but 10 frames is how long it takes for Ken's "slow" Heavy Punch to hit the opponent while his crouching Medium Kick is only 7 frames. It's like this because when the developers rereleased the same game as SFII Turbo they just cranked up the speed of the game past what it was actually designed for because too many people played a hacked, broken version called Rainbow Edition and realized the actual game was slow and unfun. In summary, SF is both too slow AND too fast.
"Melee is Marvel, Multiversus is Street Fighter" is such a succint way of saying it I felt like I grasped everything I needed off the video in the first five seconds. Personally I feel far more conscious of what both me and my opponent are doing, far more mindful of how to punish a whiff or wait for an opening than I usually feel in a Smash game.
You could argue Melee’s Marvel, but MultiVersus’ Mortal Kombat.
Multiversus is way too slow for me.
Each attack, even the jabs, are a full animation production showcase instead of a functional button press attack. And not all of the attacks have a tanky impact to pay off for their anticipation and release.
It's like you really have to plan ahead which attack you'll, and then put yourself in place, instead of fluidly moving in where you want, and then attacking the moment you press a button.
Not talking about button lag, a complete 1/3 of second of anticipation after a button press kind of slow.
I don't think it's only about the slowness of the gameplay when people talk about Multiversus' slowness, street fighter is slow paced but you've still got some action to watch and the movements and action feel more stiff than slow (the quick chains of moves to pressure a blocking oponent are visually quick), and when you get an opening you've got a shiny combo. While in Multiversus you're watching someone trying to run while being held to the bottom of a swimming pool by weights, it's super floaty and the movements feel slow, in street fighter you get to see the oponents face to face, searching for an opening, carefully approaching (the animation communicate this very well), in Multiversus you see them jumping around until one get an opening and then immediately back to normal, the only combos are either 2 move long or clanky af infinites.
In Multiversus we don't get to see the war of attrition that plays in street fighter, partly because they choose to go for a plat fighter, and with the very free movement that comes with it.
Those pathetic losers who are too busy having fun playing the game don't know that the REAL game is on twitter.
Meanwhile YOMI hustle is simultaneously the slowest and fastest fighting game at the same time.
The speed in this game is alright. The beta speed for Multiversus felt right, so i still feel very fond of the speed of the game back then. I think my biggest gripe with the game when it comes to its speed is the inconsistencies with the hits. Marvels speed satisfaction works well as most of the moves that a character has will connect well with one another, thus leading to people being astonished by how well a fast paced game like Marvel or Smash Bros due to how combos and character traits impact the momentum of the game.
As for Multiversus, a lot of moves are reactable, but then there are some moves that feel like they dont connect well at all with other moves, thus making the game play feel slow since a player will feel more inclined to use the same move due to the possibilities to land decent enough damage on another player being high. I feel this the most with Jason and Joker.
With Joker, you'll get the same bait of a forward tilt and then the occasional one move mix up adds to the pacing of the game. Meanwhile Jason has a SHIT TON of moves that dont connect with the other player at all. Moves that are unnecessarily too slow. Moves that have a missing hitbox. I can write a whole list of Jasons weaknesses based on the pacing of the game.
Basically, the speed of Multiversus does not have room for enticing mix ups or interesting gameplay moves as tons of characters, not just Jason or Joker exclusive, have paing issues with their moves that has players commit to the same formulaic combo which immensely slow down the game, making it feel very slow, thus unrewarding to play at a high level.
I recently started Melee on Slippi. What an awesome game ❤
Brawlhalla making MV look like melee 🗣🗣🗣
The problem with the speed before was that it made the game too similar to melee. Which is a good distraction for melee players for a while but eventually it loses its new toy feel and they just go back to the game they have been playing for years. With the completely new play style it can now get players for a complete different niche rather than trying to capitalize on an already existent games fanbase.
Um, that is absolutely NOT how the Capcom Vs series came to be dude.
Yeah bro forgot about darkstalkers and the jojo game
how dare you compare street fighter to that dog shit game!!
I think the new speed is a huge improvement. I played a ton of the beta, but i'm enjoying the game a lot more now. I like whiff punishing and mindgames
If everyone was broken, no one is
I’m crying multiverses looks likes it’s fighting in water
My problem with MultiVersus isn’t with the game’s speed, but rather the game’s weight. Every character feel like they’re heavy regardless of what type they are.
I don’t even hate MultiVersus, I like MultiVersus, I enjoyed playing it, probably one of the only Free to Play games that’s actually fun. But I think the game’s weight just makes the game difficult to complete, when it comes to the campaigns.
Still, the movements are better then what the Nick All-Star Brawl Games had.
Good video though
I miss when multiversus was guilty gear :(
I'm not sure that I agree that offense is strong at lower levels of melee. Basic defense like crouch cancelling exposes lots of players new to competitive melee
> Strive
> Fast
Bro would have an aneurism if he saw an actual anime fighter instead of the slow ass, snail paced garbage masquerading as an anime fighter.
As a melee player, I actually like that theres an alternative platform fighter that rewards defense more, because every other platform fighter is either trying to be melee, or melee but slightly slower and with way worse punish game.
Tried ‘Brawl+’ for the first time this year & it was really refreshing to play a combo-based platform fighter without a directional air dodge
The problem with multiversus is one the slowness of all move set makes the game unbalanced, all top tier are there cause they have less frame before frames with hitboxes, or larger hitboxes.
Two, cause of the slowness of animations and hitboxes, the best strat is to wait an oponent to attack and dodge, making characters with projectiles easier cause they don't need to approach.
Three, the dodge button can be spam multiples times, meaning even if you read a dodge, your opponent can dodge a second time and have less frames of weakness.
Four, if you had just an hability to dodge, that would be ok, but this hability can make your character dash, meaning even if you ran out of dodge bar, you can dash, with all characters.
Four and an half, this dash can be used aggresivly, making the game better for speed character, they could burn all the bar and still have the advantage against you, they can extends combo, react to your dodge by a dodge and cause they are faster, they continue to run away or follow you. They choose what you have to do and they can wif and dodge after.
To conclude, the problem isn't the speed, but only the lag frame you need to have on certain habilities and on the dodge. Like in smash, dodge not allow you to intantly attack, on multiversus, you could dodge and attack.
( We ain't talk about hitboxes for some heroes that aren't were they are supposed to be, or just move set are making it hard to understand were they are supposed to be )
My issue is just how floaty the game feels. Characters have no weight to them. I just feel so weightless when Im in the air compared to other fighters, not a good feeling for me
I think the people who say MV is too slow either haven’t played MV, or haven’t played the right characters. Sure, some characters like Tanks prefer a slower play style, but have you SEEN how quickly a character like Harley, Bugs, or Finn can rack up damage on the opponent? All it takes are the right characters and the knowledge of what moves they have to make this game go from slow to quick.
I’ve been playing since the beta and I’ve gotta say both versions were fun. Not for speed reasons, but balancing reasons. As a Harley main, this “slower” version of MV is still just as good as, if not better than the beta, because it really just makes the game more accessible to people, and that lets you play against a wide variety of styles.
I played beta multiversus for over 1000 hours (lot of clips on my channel) and I loved it
The new speed is fine, I preferred the beta, but the new speed is much better for the general playerbase and makes the game's neutral more thoughtful, as reacting to your opponent is easier
I can't speak for a ton of folk but my only issue with the beta was dodge spam. People say that hitstun wasn't big but the beta had combos. Like 0-60% combos but you had to make 3-4 hard reads to even get to the punish game.
New Multiversus is slower but the core is there. I was willing to make the adjustment but instead of fixing the main problem, they revamped the entire game. They got rid of the insane punish game that took practice in favor for the equivalent of the Ding Dong. Movement wasn't as impactful anymore and the game was still really, really mashy.
It's probably fixed now but on launch they had 30 frames of input buffer, which made the game feel unresponsive. You'd be trying to dash dance one moment and then the game says we're going right despite the stick pointing left. It was a mess and after about 2 hours of play, I uninstalled the game.
Yeah it’s so weird the games go by to fast but the characters move to slow
Hearing what you value in a tradfighter I have to recommend archus chroma. An upcoming indie fighting game with a low skill floor and a huge skill sealing with deep and rewarding neutral and combos
@@ojodeoro1106 I'll be sure to give it a look!
@@RPS_FGC it's currently in EA and I've been loving it
I love the intention and commitment for the full release. I prefer being able to punish vs constantly dodge spamming
What makes multiversus weird to play is not the speed, it's the animations. They feel janky and laggy, it's worse than SMB Brawl tbh
I actually don't mind the new MVS speed, but the main problem is in the input delay. 30 frames is a lot, and combined with the slower speed of the game makes the new MVS feel sluggish and unresponsive.
For what it's worth, they added the ability to change the input buffer to your liking in the latest patch!
@@RPS_FGC Oh cool, I didn't know that. Might have the give the game one more chance. Granted, the input delay wasn't the only thing keeping me away (the monetization and FOMO aspects are horrible), but that's a great change at least.
A games speed can also entirely depend on the matchup, for sonic the fighters the character i main bark is the character that requires a significant amount of spacing to work effectively, and while every character requires that quite alot bark requires some of the most out of the cast other than the zoners, and the fastest character with the most shmovement is sonic (crazy am i right) so its like im trying to fight a fast game character while im in a slow game character, keep in mind sonic the fighters is a more slow game than most and reading is heavily important, so sonic isnt too bad but bark doesnt make it easy.
Gotta love when a new platform-fighter “smash killer” drops and it fails for not doing any of the things smash nails perfectly.
“Gameplay is way more important than graphics!” So aside from terrible balancing, slow pacing, and being defense-sided… what is the number one complaint we all see about multiversus??
IT. LOOKS. TERRIBLE.
I preferred how some of the characters were in the old version, but prefer the current speed of the new version.
I honestly prefer the pace of the Multiversus beta since I can use my more aggressive but adaptive style more easily, and everything just feels way too floaty (I learned from playing Mario 3 that I'm not really good with the floatier 2D games). Batman's Grapple actually works now and I like the Dash Attacks though.
Definitely think ther'es other problems with Multiversus as a whole, but it's interesting to see this perpsective on the gameplay in particular.
The best defense in Marvel is not being there in the first place.
Great video. I recently discovered Multiversus, and I was always a fan of Street Fighter and not very fan of vs series,and your video touch on why I really loved this game. I didn’t play the beta, but I really like the current version.
If MVC is Melee and Multiversus is Street Fighter... Your Only Move is Hustle is probably Chess