Say, what about FGC PLAYER archetypes? The masher The Scared Of Buttons The Spammer The What Does This Do The Suicidally Aggressive The Depressingly Defensive (There's no Time Out here, DO SOMETHING!)
@@ascaredmilipede7971 not because I like Yu-Gi-Oh, but I Pendulum swing if the character allows it. Is there a ToD? Am I going to get stomped? "Maximum Level!" [SNAP] HOPE YOU HAVE HEALTH INSURANCE! *WAASSSARGH!*
Z Broly is an archetype I like to call the "boss character" A character who is designed to be powerful, but with intentional weaknesses included that let you make a hole in their armour, and then exploit that gap to get a chunk of damage in. It's like a boss fight, your goal is to find and exploit their weaknesses, so they tend to be vulnerable if the other player knows how to work around them. Z Broly, for example, has a major weakness. Quite a decent chunk of his kit is rather slow, so fast characters and characters who can overwhelm his armour will be able to punish him severely
And then there's SNK boss characters I'm looking at YOU, RUGAL (not a specific version, ALL OF HIS VERSIONS) He was so powerful they still make M.U.G.E.N variations of him, one stronger than the last one
@@omoriperocondrip9130 I remember when people used to make insanely cracked Orochi edits as well. Hell, I think Orochi probably has the most blatantly overpowered edits of any character in MUGEN that isn't either a fast food mascot or from Touhou.
As a Zoner enjoyer, I loved the Zoner portion of the video. I think it's interesting how as the genre has gone on, we've gotten more characters who are combinations of archetypes or characters that don't seem to fit any. SNK makes a lot of characters that fit the second description.
Yeah, to put an example, this is the reason of why Grapplers are so good in the Kof franchise, because most of them are Grapplers with Rushdown characteristics, like Blue Mary, Shermie and O. Yashiro, the result being a Grappler that, not only haves a lot of damage and Mixup potential, but has a acceptable speed to back this two up. If you are a Grappler enjoyer, Kof is the place for you(Except if you are a Big Body slow Grappler fan like Potemkim or Zangief only, those type of characters are still bad even here)
A good way of thinking about it is that each Archetype is an ingredient, and you combine them in a certain way to get new characters. 5 shoto 3 rushdown 1 Bully 1 Grappler = Sol Badguy.
The Ice Climbers are basically the Ur-example of a puppet grappler. And yeah, they were really good and really obnoxious in their first two appearances (Melee and Brawl).
The execution barrier is the only thing that keeps that character fair imo. they have some legit broken stuff that people don't know about because it's too hard to execute. Setting up inescapable grab with ice cone on block is the easiest example, but you could say...that's just the tip of the iceberg :^)
Well ice climbers are weird because they are puppet characters that you don't directly control the character. As such they're more what I would call echo characters that you can desync. But yeah smash never truly had a "true" puppet character but ice climbers are the closest to that along with rosa. To be honest I'd be curious to see a true puppet character in platform fighters.
@@prophetedubaroque5136 Although you may call it setplay (and I wouldn't necessarily disagree with that) I think Duck Hunt could also qualify as somewhat of a puppet character, with its controllable projectile. In Rivals of Aether, there's a character named Absa who can set up a cloud to manually detonate later which creates a lot of stage control and combos. In Rushdown Revolt, there's a duo character whom I forgot the name of (which is dumb because they're my main in this game LOL) who can switch between two characters, it's a bit like the ice climbers but with more control.
@@placeadrien5566 I mean it's just that I have a very strict definition of puppet characters but I can see your point. Controllable setplay is pretty in between by definition and if we consider character type as a spectrum controlable setplay would be the first step toward full blown puppet character (which there isn't that much to be fair if based on my criteria)
At this point, Gekko should make a video (or series) as a Fighting Game Dictionary. From Numpad Notation to simple stuff like this. This is very helpful for those not knowing what those terms mean.
@@SPZ-gv2onYeah but it's nice to have a comprehensive video of a guy going over the most necessary general game knowledge, both for the genre as a whole and for individual games, with other videos for more specific knowledge and tech
@@SPZ-gv2oni looked at the fighting game glossary and to be honest it was hard to see where a new player would start without knowing what these terms are called. I think the FGG should have a "general terms" tab for beginners
A Tatsus main objective really isnt for going through fireballs. Their main applicability is that they're advancing mid specials that are good for corner carry. Sol's would be considered bandit revolver, for example.
To be fair, Frieza is also really good at frametraps and resets, mostly because (IIRC) his 2M is like -1, meaning he can then delay a rock blast (or 5M) or go back into 5L, which lets the pressure reset. He also has GeWldEN form.
Personally I like having both the ability to rushdown my opponent but also the ability to keep them at range, due to being bad at fighting games due to lack of experience and enjoying strategy games which is probably why I fell in love with happy chaos' playstyle of being a rushdown zoner.
@@psychromaniac3525 nah, not the same--a shoto is good at everything, but they usually tend to have great (or at least solid) midrange games that make them really good at just standing their ground and playing footsies against most of the cast. they also pretty much always have excellent defense, but tend to have somewhat tame pressure in comparison to the real mixup monsters of a given game. zoner/rushdown hybrids on the other hand usually tend to have very strong fullscreen games and extremely strong up-close pressure, but tend to have mediocre-to-bad midrange pokes and as such are incentivized to play neutral by abusing their long-range supremacy while also being able to quickly threaten getting in and bringing you to party town. they also almost always have ass defense because zoner moment its the difference between like, ky and dizzy. or ragna and lambda. these are all "balanced" characters in that they're good in a variety of ranges but you can't say they're the same kind of thing lol
If anyone's wondering, Smash bros (as usual) doesn't quite accomodate to the standard. Since move-cancelling is not a native feature, archetypes like the rushdown get completely redefined. Then you have cases where knockback scaling creates completely new archetypes. Case and point: Swordfighters. Because average speed is higher that traditional fighters, and hitting the opponent knocks them back, having a long reaching weapon built into the character is very valuable, and even allows a variety of mix-and-match with other archetypes: Marth and Roy have similar movesets, but Marth's tipper and preference for stabbing makes him more of a spacer; while Roy's reverse tipper and slashing moves make him a rushdown. Then you have weird shit like Ganondorf, who is a big body with a command grab, insane range on his smash attacks, a surprising variety of mix-ups, and magnet hands, but has two move slots completely wasted on warlock punch and ESPECIALLY volcano kick. He trades a possible projectile and anti-air for a falcon punch (trade power for speed, range, reliability, and general use) and a barely useful, equally slow anti-shield. Or Dedede, a big-body zoner with a command grab/unbreakable reflector, a ludicrously powerful and fast down-b that can 2-frame, great but slow recovery, and excellent range thanks to his hammer. But he's also slow as shit, his dash attack is super janky, and you're gonna have trouble launching the opponent off the ledge, where DDD truly shines. I will not mention the absolutely busted abominations that are Kazuya, Pyra/Mythra, Steve or Bayonetta. I rest my case and thank you for reading my diatribe.
Something that bothers me about character archetypes is that people use "Stance character" to describe two different types of characters. There are the "stance characters" who can enter a stance that drastically changes up how they play entirely, like Vega from Street Fighter, Leo from Guilty Gear, or even Pokemon Trainer from Smash Bros. Then there are the "stance characters" who have a unique stance that functions more as an extension of their base moveset, which has a certain number of followups after entering that stance, and often has a lot of tech involving canceling the stance to reduce endlag. These would be characters like Johnny from Guilty Gear, Hazama from Blazblue, and Naoto from Persona 4 Arena. It's frustrating that we don't have different names for these kinds of characters, but it's pretty much too late to do anything about it because the names are too set in stone.
As a Lei Wulong main, thanks for adding him in! People be sleeping on the Council of Hiyah, they have no idea how much fun it is to go goofy mode with stances
Interesting that Johnny is under the stance category, when he really falls under the bully(not big body)/combo grappler/snowball archetype. Mist finer is less like a stance and more of a execution barrier to his absurd plus frames in the older titles and coin made his gameplan revolve around a snowball approach to A. level up (either to level 3 or level 2 depending on the game) B.Make you block C.Crank risc, counter hit you, or grab you while under the pressure of his stupid plus frames D. Repeat till death
The most fun characters are the chimeras that have various archetype defining tools. Ferry and Metera (GBVS) are zoners but have strong setplay (Ferry even has instant overheads). Belial and Siegfried have everything, Percival has strong footsies and a combo command throw. Another sub archetype that's often overlooked are parry characters. Hakumen from BB, Anre/Uno from GBVS, and I believe old pre-Strive Baiken.
I WHOLEHEARTEDLY agree with this, as a Johnny (strive) guilty gear main I find his gameplan to be super interesting the game lists him as a zoner but I disagree with that, he has long range moves but his plan is to use them to punish the opponent and get knockdowns or cards (again strive Johnny he throws cards now) once he gets a punish he sets up a card (setplay) for a mix up or continued pressure, using the gard crush from throwing the card to keep the pressure going (bully character) and he also has unreactable 50/50s and forwards moving normals (rushdown). This all together creates a neutral based wiff punish character who once he gets a hit turns into a rushdown bully, setplay character. GOD I LOVE PLAYING JOHNNY!!!!!!
@CalvinWiens-zi3pz I used to main Johnny in Strive and I agree. He can do almost all in terms of offense: setplay, strong high-low mix-up, strike/throw, footsies.
Chimera characters are so much fun! I like having a character with basic zoning tools that are a means to get them in. Not quite a shoto fireball, but stuff like having bigger normals while still being able to be a threat up-close (Carmine from UNI)
I struggled for a while as to what the core difference of Grappler and Rushdown were, as they both have very similar game plans of “Get In.” The conclusion I’ve settled on is that Grapplers have a “Big Move” that they can use the THREAT of to manipulate their opponent, while Rushdowns intentionally try to be unpredictable, in order to get around the opponents guard. Spinning pile driver and Pot Buster are iconic, specifically because you are constantly worried about defending against/avoiding those moves
I recently started being a grappler main with Manon and all i can say is that the moment im starting to lvl up the medal counter is when i can taste the fear pouring out from my opponent and i enjoy every second of it.
I know you didn’t talk about mk1, but I was trying to classify Mileena’s archetype and this video was very informative! Well since it’s an assist fighter, the way I play her(with Kung Lao or Tremor), she has traits from both footies and setplay archetypes. Interesting video man!
All fighting games are technically RPGs if you think about it because you play the role of the victim as the grappler deletes your health bar with 1 input.
It's really weird how the fgc can be legitemitely a really positive community at times when the whole genre is about using your own bs so the other player can't play the game and use their own bs tbh.
I think the thing with FGC is that The confrontation is a lot more personal in a sense in other games the vs part is usually in personal like shooters and MOBA's you don't exactly engage you're opponent in 1 v 1 and if you do it's not very well suited for it FG's thrive on being personal a straight 1 v 1 you you're character and the opponent and their character no distractions
I'm planning to make a character in mugen with a griddy rekka. So like 236X is the swipe up and then there's a bunch of follow ups such as 632X which is a slightly plus on block overhead. I'll leave an update if or when I get around to doing it and post it on me channel.
@@D.Ku_03I say bandit bringer doesn't count since it's an extention of bandit revolver. It's like calling every part of a character's rekka it's own move.
@@amethyst5783bandit bringer and bandit revolver are totally different moves my guy. they're the same input in xrd, sure, but they still do different things
I'm a big fan of very specific gimmick/joke characters. Dampierre from Soul Calibur and Lowain from Blazblue fit this mold pretty well and I'm sure there are a ton more I'm not thinking of right now.
An archetype I accidentally fell into is the “set-play bully.” Characters that fall into this archetype are a fusion of set-play and zoners with a hint of grapplers and zoners. Carmine from Undernight is the prime example. He may seem like a zoner in neutral, but his gameplan is essentially getting close enough to put the opponent into the corner and spam wild amounts of projectiles and blood set-ups to keep himself plus. His win-condition is usually to mix opponents up between his command grab or frame-traps when opponents thinks he will command grab. Jack-0 is honestly a better version of this since she doesn’t lose blood with every special + her lil’ buddies help her in neutral a lot more. Not a lot of games have characters like these two, so it’s hard to find a fighting game character that scratches that itch juuuuuuuuuust right
Stance/Rushdown is definitely my favorite type of character. Especially in Leo's situation, where I get into backturn stance, and now you have a 5-way mixup on your hands. Guess.
My favorite archetype is one that is barely recognized, the parry characters. Anji Mito in strive specifically and Hakumen from Blazblue being great examples
I can't speak too much on this since I'm not that great at more traditional fighting games, and I speak with my experience mostly coming from, smash ultimate, but the reason why I like to play zoners is that it just seems easier to keep your opponent at bay compared to trying to answer whatever they try. I could try to find an answer to that certain move, or I could just prevent them from ever getting close in the first place.
the problem is that being a zoner is ultimately entirely ABOUT countering your opponent's attempts to get in. you ARE answering everything they do, it's just instead of blocking this overhead you're sniping that jump. frankly i dont see how one can think that actually needing to respond to stuff the opponent is doing is easier than just being able to throw stuff out and your opponent is forced to respect it cuz it's your turn eat this 50/50 lololol
I never get tired of these kinds of videos and this certainly is one of the better. However, what they often seem to leave out are the defensive characters I have a soft spot for, like Hakumen, Jubei or Baiken or just playstyles that lean heavily on counter punishes like Steve. They may not always be a full clear cut archetype but it's an aspect that makes the character interesting for me.
@@luoxis I know, that's a change I didn't like very much, Rev2 Baiken was great and while I like a lot of the Strive characters sadly Baiken didn't really do it for me that much anymore.
Funny you mentioned Tekken for stances because, what i love about this game, is that THERE ARE SO MANY STANCES FOR NO GOOD REASON. Most characters would be defined as stance characters in other games just because there are so many, to the point where stance character is not even a good descriptor (for anyone but lei for the reasons stated above)
My question is what the hell would Strive Bedman? even fit into? He doesn't do anything specific aside from his Error 6E mechanic, so would he be a setplay character? But he also sort of fits into Rushdown with how you have to play him. He's also just a massive body in general so theres that too.
no idea how ive found myself here, but you're great lol. My favorite archetype is hot old man(JP), but I also like puppet (zato1) and combo grapplers (abel, thunder)
I love rush down because it satisfies the monkey inside of me. Theres just no better feeling than showering your enemy with attacks and making them guess what kind of bullshit my monkey brain will come up next.
Honestly a little surprised and sad I didn't see Hakumen in any of these examples, or Vas in the Big Body section. Maybe they just didn't fit into any of the archetypes mentioned.
Hakumen is more of a turtle than anything else. His playstyle is a lot more defensive and reactionary and he excels at deleting health bars if the opponent makes a mistake approaching him or attempting to open him up. Vas is deffo a big body bruiser tho.
Say, what about FGC PLAYER archetypes? The masher The Scared Of Buttons The Spammer The What Does This Do The Suicidally Aggressive The Depressingly Defensive (There's no Time Out here, DO SOMETHING!)
Despite what everyone says about zoners I love playing against them. Some of the most fun I’ve had in fighting games is getting through a zoners tools like I’m in mission impossible then Absolutely slapping the shit out of said zoner
It's kinda funny how people react when given a solid argument that Guile isn't really a zoner anymore. He's grown into more of a midrange footsies character.
One of the funkiest archetypes I've ever seen is Street Fighter 4's Hakan, "The Reverse Grappler". So you know how to beat most grapplers you generally want to keep your distance and weather them down with long range buttons and fireballs? This does not work on Hakan: He'll just lube himself up and slide into your DMs before you can even say Sonic Boom. As long as Hakan is oiled up he can cancel his dash into any of his normals and cancel many of his normals into dashes, gets a full-screen low slide that beats fireballs and a lunging command grab that can scoop you from a shocking distance. This all comes with a big caveat: He needs space to oil himself up. Many of his specials put him at a good distance to set himself up, but he's basically half of a character until that point, so get in there and wrestle that large greasy man from India.
I agree with most of this video but: I think the better label to “big bodies” is “Bruiser” since not every character with a big body is a slow but strong fighter, because there are characters like MVC Sentinel who is strong but is actually very mobile and not that strong. And also I thought “Setplay” was the characters who set up an item on stage to control space and the characters with Mix-Ups were called “Mix-Ups”, maybe they are actually “trappers”, but looks like they are more common in Platformer fighters than traditional ones. And I guess you missed the Composite characters.
Some archetypes explained by how someone who have fought in a school fight: Rushdown: The kid who sees a fight and IMMEDIATELY swings a fist toward the other person's face. Then they beat the shit out of them when they're on the ground. Grappler: The kid who tries to tackle the other person to the ground. Can be with actual wrestling techniques or just hair pulling. Zoner: The kid who would splash milk in their face then throw their lunch tray at them. And their pencil. And their 10 pound textbook. And the chair. Shoto: The kid who actually took some martal arts classes and tries to use them. They don't do it very well, but it still hurts. Puppet: The one kid who's kinda frail, but has a friend or two who will jump in to help them, resulting into a dogpile. Big Body: The one kid who fucking deadlifts and has a full beard by the 9th grade. No one fucks with this guy and anyone who does has their entire jawline rearranged 180 degress. Stance: The kid who gets in a fighr and starts to Naruto hand symbols. Then they slap you.
I basically live in the rushdown clubhouse to the point where if I try out a character of any other archetype, I end up trying to play them as a rushdown character as well.
Man, this video made me hate Strive Ky because Xrd and +R Ky are more ranged based like Daisuke made a Zoner that controlled like a shoto. Sol Badguy plays roughly the same but had some stuff taken away but still played the same.
my favorite characters are the ones with rekkas like Yamcha and Enkido they usually have really wierd normals from everybody else and really confusing mixups
The big problem with motion inputs is it means you NEED a special controller for the game, because the D pad on a normal xbox controller is NOT going to work for a fighting game with motion inputs.
Msmsmdmr is argueqbly my favorite term for a fireballl niw 3:53 Yes, because it goes under fireballs 14:46 Correct. As a zoner player myself, I relish in this. Making the opponent slowly apprach and annoying them is the goal. Fireballs tend to do little to no chip damage, so you really are just looking for an opening to punish. 29:03 Z Broly does have 2 downsides. His buttons leave him more open than others, and he does less damage than the rest of the cast thanks to his combo scaling. Often times you're better off keeping your combos as short as possible, as making them longer means you do less damage in total. He also gains less meter than the rest of the cast. In short, amazing tools, stunted payoffs. That doesn't make him not a monster though and I love that they did him justice in FighterZ
Personally I like FGC characters with Guard Point or Countermoves if they're available I eventually try all of them and go Random Roulette or my fave Soul Of Mokujin11 Challenge!
25:45 way befor SF3, there was the gameplay from *Ring Of Destruction Slam Masters 2* which is a "combo grappler" type game. But each wrestlers in the game has also they own archetype combining with grappling.
And then there's Virtua Fighter, where every character is rushdown, the closest it gets to zoning is footsies because there are no fireballs (though it being a 3d series adds a lot of depth to the footsies), and most of the cast has stances or command grabs or both. In short, all the characters defy such simple categorization because their toolkits are so balanced and adaptable to multiple gameplans. But of course every character feels very distinct. Wolf has the most command grabs by a decent margin. Lion has by far the best lows, making his mixups very unique. While most characters have a couple of stances that change a few moves, Lei Fei has a full seven, with just about every move changing stance, and Vanessa has two completely non-overlapping movesets. El Blaze has a ridiculous run speed, completely changing his approach to footsies. Akira has busted guard breaks and combos that demand ridiculous execution. Kage's grappling is the best at ringouts. Taka's weight makes him immune to certain combos and he has some terrifying pokes. Shun Di has a meter and his moveset drastically expands as it's charged. Aoi can parry and counter pretty much anything. Et cetera et cetera.
There are only 2 types of Fighting game archetypes. Namely, "Grapplers" and "Command Grab victims".
3 if you include the grappler who doesn't get to play the game against a strong zoner.
Say, what about FGC PLAYER archetypes?
The masher
The Scared Of Buttons
The Spammer
The What Does This Do
The Suicidally Aggressive
The Depressingly Defensive (There's no Time Out here, DO SOMETHING!)
@@Ramsey276oneThats me, im the Depressingly Defensive
@@ascaredmilipede7971 not because I like Yu-Gi-Oh, but I Pendulum swing if the character allows it.
Is there a ToD? Am I going to get stomped?
"Maximum Level!"
[SNAP]
HOPE YOU HAVE HEALTH INSURANCE! *WAASSSARGH!*
Yeah boy!!!! Hell yeah
Z Broly is an archetype I like to call the "boss character"
A character who is designed to be powerful, but with intentional weaknesses included that let you make a hole in their armour, and then exploit that gap to get a chunk of damage in. It's like a boss fight, your goal is to find and exploit their weaknesses, so they tend to be vulnerable if the other player knows how to work around them.
Z Broly, for example, has a major weakness. Quite a decent chunk of his kit is rather slow, so fast characters and characters who can overwhelm his armour will be able to punish him severely
Pretty sure it isn’t an archetype, just bad game balance
And then there's SNK boss characters
I'm looking at YOU, RUGAL (not a specific version, ALL OF HIS VERSIONS)
He was so powerful they still make M.U.G.E.N variations of him, one stronger than the last one
@@omoriperocondrip9130 I remember when people used to make insanely cracked Orochi edits as well. Hell, I think Orochi probably has the most blatantly overpowered edits of any character in MUGEN that isn't either a fast food mascot or from Touhou.
@@ArbitraryOutcome Touhou really is the symbol of power, isn't it
“Vulcanicu..
*inhales*
….vaipaaaaaaahhh!”
11/10, simply amazing.
As a Zoner enjoyer, I loved the Zoner portion of the video.
I think it's interesting how as the genre has gone on, we've gotten more characters who are combinations of archetypes or characters that don't seem to fit any. SNK makes a lot of characters that fit the second description.
That's why I love SNK games
Yeah, to put an example, this is the reason of why Grapplers are so good in the Kof franchise, because most of them are Grapplers with Rushdown characteristics, like Blue Mary, Shermie and O. Yashiro, the result being a Grappler that, not only haves a lot of damage and Mixup potential, but has a acceptable speed to back this two up.
If you are a Grappler enjoyer, Kof is the place for you(Except if you are a Big Body slow Grappler fan like Potemkim or Zangief only, those type of characters are still bad even here)
A good way of thinking about it is that each Archetype is an ingredient, and you combine them in a certain way to get new characters.
5 shoto
3 rushdown
1 Bully
1 Grappler
= Sol Badguy.
NICE
10 feets
7 rushdown
3 gimmicks
1 shoto
Guess who's
@@inv_hana (grabs chronometer) Lettuce Sea...
@@Ramsey276one ?
@@inv_hanaChipp Zanuff maybe?
If you smell enough sharpies, every character is rushdown
I vibe with this. In fact when starting flighting games, my first chars were +r sol and Strive Ky snorting horse tranquilizer.
legit how i play axl low
Still more fun then playing zoning imo
The Ice Climbers are basically the Ur-example of a puppet grappler. And yeah, they were really good and really obnoxious in their first two appearances (Melee and Brawl).
If you know what you are doing in ult, they are extremely scary.
The execution barrier is the only thing that keeps that character fair imo. they have some legit broken stuff that people don't know about because it's too hard to execute. Setting up inescapable grab with ice cone on block is the easiest example, but you could say...that's just the tip of the iceberg :^)
Well ice climbers are weird because they are puppet characters that you don't directly control the character. As such they're more what I would call echo characters that you can desync. But yeah smash never truly had a "true" puppet character but ice climbers are the closest to that along with rosa. To be honest I'd be curious to see a true puppet character in platform fighters.
@@prophetedubaroque5136
Although you may call it setplay (and I wouldn't necessarily disagree with that) I think Duck Hunt could also qualify as somewhat of a puppet character, with its controllable projectile.
In Rivals of Aether, there's a character named Absa who can set up a cloud to manually detonate later which creates a lot of stage control and combos.
In Rushdown Revolt, there's a duo character whom I forgot the name of (which is dumb because they're my main in this game LOL) who can switch between two characters, it's a bit like the ice climbers but with more control.
@@placeadrien5566 I mean it's just that I have a very strict definition of puppet characters but I can see your point. Controllable setplay is pretty in between by definition and if we consider character type as a spectrum controlable setplay would be the first step toward full blown puppet character (which there isn't that much to be fair if based on my criteria)
At this point, Gekko should make a video (or series) as a Fighting Game Dictionary. From Numpad Notation to simple stuff like this. This is very helpful for those not knowing what those terms mean.
Just use the fighting game glossary for that. People need to know about it, literally a fighting game term dictionary with examples.
@@SPZ-gv2onYeah but it's nice to have a comprehensive video of a guy going over the most necessary general game knowledge, both for the genre as a whole and for individual games, with other videos for more specific knowledge and tech
@@SPZ-gv2oni looked at the fighting game glossary and to be honest it was hard to see where a new player would start without knowing what these terms are called. I think the FGG should have a "general terms" tab for beginners
Great idea💡
A Tatsus main objective really isnt for going through fireballs. Their main applicability is that they're advancing mid specials that are good for corner carry. Sol's would be considered bandit revolver, for example.
Frieza: has an entire kit centred around zoning
Z Broly: has a ki blast
Z Broly wins.
To be fair, Frieza is also really good at frametraps and resets, mostly because (IIRC) his 2M is like -1, meaning he can then delay a rock blast (or 5M) or go back into 5L, which lets the pressure reset. He also has GeWldEN form.
Also frieza: has an install that lets him loop you until he chooses to take steroids and bash you down
god dbfz is weird
@alexhiras7408Beerus isn’t a zoner though
@@nsgarci8047and that install is ass
DBFZ refuses to make a good zoner, also without realizing their best zoner is a fucking rushdown grappler. I don't really get it man
Personally I like having both the ability to rushdown my opponent but also the ability to keep them at range, due to being bad at fighting games due to lack of experience and enjoying strategy games which is probably why I fell in love with happy chaos' playstyle of being a rushdown zoner.
You literally described my favorite type of characters xd.
So you like Shotos, then?
@@psychromaniac3525 No, most of them are boring, but, to be honest, maybe they are perfect for me but I'm just in constant denial, who knows.
@@psychromaniac3525 nah, not the same--a shoto is good at everything, but they usually tend to have great (or at least solid) midrange games that make them really good at just standing their ground and playing footsies against most of the cast. they also pretty much always have excellent defense, but tend to have somewhat tame pressure in comparison to the real mixup monsters of a given game. zoner/rushdown hybrids on the other hand usually tend to have very strong fullscreen games and extremely strong up-close pressure, but tend to have mediocre-to-bad midrange pokes and as such are incentivized to play neutral by abusing their long-range supremacy while also being able to quickly threaten getting in and bringing you to party town. they also almost always have ass defense because zoner moment
its the difference between like, ky and dizzy. or ragna and lambda. these are all "balanced" characters in that they're good in a variety of ranges but you can't say they're the same kind of thing lol
so one the easiest and best characters in the game? xd
Of course the reworking of the classic series from this cahnnel would have a load of last minute issues when trying to get it out of the door.
oh did it also have issues with u 😂
If anyone's wondering, Smash bros (as usual) doesn't quite accomodate to the standard. Since move-cancelling is not a native feature, archetypes like the rushdown get completely redefined. Then you have cases where knockback scaling creates completely new archetypes. Case and point: Swordfighters. Because average speed is higher that traditional fighters, and hitting the opponent knocks them back, having a long reaching weapon built into the character is very valuable, and even allows a variety of mix-and-match with other archetypes: Marth and Roy have similar movesets, but Marth's tipper and preference for stabbing makes him more of a spacer; while Roy's reverse tipper and slashing moves make him a rushdown.
Then you have weird shit like Ganondorf, who is a big body with a command grab, insane range on his smash attacks, a surprising variety of mix-ups, and magnet hands, but has two move slots completely wasted on warlock punch and ESPECIALLY volcano kick. He trades a possible projectile and anti-air for a falcon punch (trade power for speed, range, reliability, and general use) and a barely useful, equally slow anti-shield. Or Dedede, a big-body zoner with a command grab/unbreakable reflector, a ludicrously powerful and fast down-b that can 2-frame, great but slow recovery, and excellent range thanks to his hammer. But he's also slow as shit, his dash attack is super janky, and you're gonna have trouble launching the opponent off the ledge, where DDD truly shines.
I will not mention the absolutely busted abominations that are Kazuya, Pyra/Mythra, Steve or Bayonetta. I rest my case and thank you for reading my diatribe.
I love that Falcon being a model rushdown character is just kinda perfect for him
Z broly truly is a beast of his own kind in dbfz. Fun to play occasionally. Choo choo
6:02 made me laugh way harder than it should have just the "and sol badguy" at the end. Our resident jerk shoto.
Good Ol' Fred
Unless you are P2
XD
As a Sol main, I just WHEEZED at that moment, especially with his theme blasting in the back 🤣
For me, my favorite arche types is puppet character
Because it is fun to see two characters interacting as one team or as one person
Something that bothers me about character archetypes is that people use "Stance character" to describe two different types of characters.
There are the "stance characters" who can enter a stance that drastically changes up how they play entirely, like Vega from Street Fighter, Leo from Guilty Gear, or even Pokemon Trainer from Smash Bros.
Then there are the "stance characters" who have a unique stance that functions more as an extension of their base moveset, which has a certain number of followups after entering that stance, and often has a lot of tech involving canceling the stance to reduce endlag. These would be characters like Johnny from Guilty Gear, Hazama from Blazblue, and Naoto from Persona 4 Arena.
It's frustrating that we don't have different names for these kinds of characters, but it's pretty much too late to do anything about it because the names are too set in stone.
As a Lei Wulong main, thanks for adding him in! People be sleeping on the Council of Hiyah, they have no idea how much fun it is to go goofy mode with stances
"if i don't know what move will come out next, neither will my opponent"
Lei wulong deserves more attention! i need to keep my wacky jacky chan clone in tekken
Lei Enjoyer here
Interesting that Johnny is under the stance category, when he really falls under the bully(not big body)/combo grappler/snowball archetype. Mist finer is less like a stance and more of a execution barrier to his absurd plus frames in the older titles and coin made his gameplan revolve around a snowball approach to
A. level up (either to level 3 or level 2 depending on the game)
B.Make you block
C.Crank risc, counter hit you, or grab you while under the pressure of his stupid plus frames
D. Repeat till death
also i suppose it makes sense why he put baiken in rushdown when he didn’t mention the parry/defense archetype but like. chipp is right there
The most fun characters are the chimeras that have various archetype defining tools. Ferry and Metera (GBVS) are zoners but have strong setplay (Ferry even has instant overheads). Belial and Siegfried have everything, Percival has strong footsies and a combo command throw.
Another sub archetype that's often overlooked are parry characters. Hakumen from BB, Anre/Uno from GBVS, and I believe old pre-Strive Baiken.
I WHOLEHEARTEDLY agree with this, as a Johnny (strive) guilty gear main I find his gameplan to be super interesting the game lists him as a zoner but I disagree with that, he has long range moves but his plan is to use them to punish the opponent and get knockdowns or cards (again strive Johnny he throws cards now) once he gets a punish he sets up a card (setplay) for a mix up or continued pressure, using the gard crush from throwing the card to keep the pressure going (bully character) and he also has unreactable 50/50s and forwards moving normals (rushdown). This all together creates a neutral based wiff punish character who once he gets a hit turns into a rushdown bully, setplay character. GOD I LOVE PLAYING JOHNNY!!!!!!
@CalvinWiens-zi3pz
I used to main Johnny in Strive and I agree. He can do almost all in terms of offense: setplay, strong high-low mix-up, strike/throw, footsies.
Chimera characters are so much fun! I like having a character with basic zoning tools that are a means to get them in. Not quite a shoto fireball, but stuff like having bigger normals while still being able to be a threat up-close (Carmine from UNI)
I struggled for a while as to what the core difference of Grappler and Rushdown were, as they both have very similar game plans of “Get In.” The conclusion I’ve settled on is that Grapplers have a “Big Move” that they can use the THREAT of to manipulate their opponent, while Rushdowns intentionally try to be unpredictable, in order to get around the opponents guard.
Spinning pile driver and Pot Buster are iconic, specifically because you are constantly worried about defending against/avoiding those moves
Hakumen is a stance character, his default stance is 'waiting', and his second is 'sword fvcking you for 16 seconds straight'
There are only two archerypes. Zoners and victims
I recently started being a grappler main with Manon and all i can say is that the moment im starting to lvl up the medal counter is when i can taste the fear pouring out from my opponent and i enjoy every second of it.
You. Forgot. PARRY CHARACTERS. I will now parry you
Ah yes, I sure love my shoto, zoner, rushdown, combo grappler, footsies, big body, setplay character: Bedman?
I know you didn’t talk about mk1, but I was trying to classify Mileena’s archetype and this video was very informative! Well since it’s an assist fighter, the way I play her(with Kung Lao or Tremor), she has traits from both footies and setplay archetypes. Interesting video man!
All fighting games are technically RPGs if you think about it because you play the role of the victim as the grappler deletes your health bar with 1 input.
"Rushdown characters have bad neutral tools"
*laughs in post season 3 Sin Kiske*
Rushdown mains be like: I didn't pay seventy bucks to play a gottdamn blocking game.
It's really weird how the fgc can be legitemitely a really positive community at times when the whole genre is about using your own bs so the other player can't play the game and use their own bs tbh.
I think the thing with FGC is that
The confrontation is a lot more personal in a sense in other games the vs part is usually in personal like shooters and MOBA's you don't exactly engage you're opponent in 1 v 1 and if you do it's not very well suited for it
FG's thrive on being personal a straight 1 v 1 you you're character and the opponent and their character no distractions
The entire Grappler section didn't mention one specific grappler-rich game... KOF
"normal command grabs have a fixed result on hit" *shows potemkin moments away from comboing off his command grab*
16:05 Zoners are like FGC Bouncers
"No passing this point.. *I said BTFO!!"*
I'm planning to make a character in mugen with a griddy rekka. So like 236X is the swipe up and then there's a bunch of follow ups such as 632X which is a slightly plus on block overhead.
I'll leave an update if or when I get around to doing it and post it on me channel.
That sounds fucking amazing.
Thank you ever so kindly for reinforcing footsie as the midrange archetype.
I always thought bandit revolver was sol's tatsu
he kind of has 3, Vortex, Bandit Revolver and Bandit Bringer
@@D.Ku_03I say bandit bringer doesn't count since it's an extention of bandit revolver. It's like calling every part of a character's rekka it's own move.
@@amethyst5783bandit bringer and bandit revolver are totally different moves my guy. they're the same input in xrd, sure, but they still do different things
Good to know!!@@D.Ku_03
17:52 Ironically, this pretty accurately describes the biggest frustration a zoner will experience.
Zoners should step on a lego every day at a random time so they never knew when exactly in the day it would happen
I'm a big fan of very specific gimmick/joke characters. Dampierre from Soul Calibur and Lowain from Blazblue fit this mold pretty well and I'm sure there are a ton more I'm not thinking of right now.
Lowain is from granblue, not blazblue
Ah yes, the most refined character archetype! Dan Hibiki is the real shoto, ngl
@@arizuchan4165 granblue is just gran blazblue
An archetype I accidentally fell into is the “set-play bully.” Characters that fall into this archetype are a fusion of set-play and zoners with a hint of grapplers and zoners. Carmine from Undernight is the prime example. He may seem like a zoner in neutral, but his gameplan is essentially getting close enough to put the opponent into the corner and spam wild amounts of projectiles and blood set-ups to keep himself plus. His win-condition is usually to mix opponents up between his command grab or frame-traps when opponents thinks he will command grab. Jack-0 is honestly a better version of this since she doesn’t lose blood with every special + her lil’ buddies help her in neutral a lot more. Not a lot of games have characters like these two, so it’s hard to find a fighting game character that scratches that itch juuuuuuuuuust right
Stance/Rushdown is definitely my favorite type of character. Especially in Leo's situation, where I get into backturn stance, and now you have a 5-way mixup on your hands. Guess.
I have never once heard anyone call NRV a tatsu-like move. Pass whatever kinda zaza you on, I want some
My favorite archetype is one that is barely recognized, the parry characters. Anji Mito in strive specifically and Hakumen from Blazblue being great examples
INFERNODIVIDERINFERNODIVIDERINFERNODIVIDERINFERNODIVIDER!!! Noel to Lambda: "I think we broke Ragna"
Im a simple man, I dont need any fancy mix ups. All I need is a nice bottle of glue and a high damage command grab.
I can't speak too much on this since I'm not that great at more traditional fighting games, and I speak with my experience mostly coming from, smash ultimate, but the reason why I like to play zoners is that it just seems easier to keep your opponent at bay compared to trying to answer whatever they try.
I could try to find an answer to that certain move, or I could just prevent them from ever getting close in the first place.
the problem is that being a zoner is ultimately entirely ABOUT countering your opponent's attempts to get in. you ARE answering everything they do, it's just instead of blocking this overhead you're sniping that jump. frankly i dont see how one can think that actually needing to respond to stuff the opponent is doing is easier than just being able to throw stuff out and your opponent is forced to respect it cuz it's your turn eat this 50/50 lololol
Seth in street fighter 4 is everything. Combo, command grab, zoning, range and rush down. Loving the content, keep it up!
I never get tired of these kinds of videos and this certainly is one of the better. However, what they often seem to leave out are the defensive characters I have a soft spot for, like Hakumen, Jubei or Baiken or just playstyles that lean heavily on counter punishes like Steve. They may not always be a full clear cut archetype but it's an aspect that makes the character interesting for me.
Strive Baiken really isn't that defensive tho
@@luoxis I know, that's a change I didn't like very much, Rev2 Baiken was great and while I like a lot of the Strive characters sadly Baiken didn't really do it for me that much anymore.
🔥🔥WE REUPLOADING A BANGER WITH THIS ONE🔥🗣💯
Steiner math is the greatest intellectual achievement mankind has ever known
Funny you mentioned Tekken for stances because, what i love about this game, is that THERE ARE SO MANY STANCES FOR NO GOOD REASON. Most characters would be defined as stance characters in other games just because there are so many, to the point where stance character is not even a good descriptor (for anyone but lei for the reasons stated above)
MSMSMDMR is my new favourite fighting game term
My question is what the hell would Strive Bedman? even fit into? He doesn't do anything specific aside from his Error 6E mechanic, so would he be a setplay character? But he also sort of fits into Rushdown with how you have to play him.
He's also just a massive body in general so theres that too.
A marvel character
@@lucianoaguero6795 Fuck it, sounds like a fun idea
3 Setplay
1 zoner
4 BIG BODY BULLY
1 footsies.
no idea how ive found myself here, but you're great lol. My favorite archetype is hot old man(JP), but I also like puppet (zato1) and combo grapplers (abel, thunder)
I love rush down because it satisfies the monkey inside of me. Theres just no better feeling than showering your enemy with attacks and making them guess what kind of bullshit my monkey brain will come up next.
I rewinded the video at least 15 times to hear again how perfectly he imitates "SHORYUKEN"
I wish I knew what all the background songs in this were some of them were really good
“Zoners typically have a hard time once you get in as they lack get off me tools” samus from smash would like a word with you.
good effort on that VOLCANIC VAIPAAAAAHHHH
fighting game youtubers making another fighting game character types video knowing everyone will still watch them
one of those topics you can know all the info already, and it's still amusing to hear other people's takes on it
i skipped to the zoner section and instantly recognized hilda's theme with the most evil smile growing across my face
As a grappler player, i will say you're forgetting the biggest part of playing a grappler...not doing the command grab to put fear into the opponent.
Honestly a little surprised and sad I didn't see Hakumen in any of these examples, or Vas in the Big Body section. Maybe they just didn't fit into any of the archetypes mentioned.
Hakumen is more of a turtle than anything else. His playstyle is a lot more defensive and reactionary and he excels at deleting health bars if the opponent makes a mistake approaching him or attempting to open him up.
Vas is deffo a big body bruiser tho.
The downside of Z Broly is you can only have 1 on your team
Say, what about FGC PLAYER archetypes?
The masher
The Scared Of Buttons
The Spammer
The What Does This Do
The Suicidally Aggressive
The Depressingly Defensive (There's no Time Out here, DO SOMETHING!)
Suicidal???
You mean
OOOOOOH
FIGHT LIKE A TIGER, WALK IN THE PARK
@@truffeltroll6668 I think I hit a lucky critical...
XD
Despite what everyone says about zoners I love playing against them.
Some of the most fun I’ve had in fighting games is getting through a zoners tools like I’m in mission impossible then Absolutely slapping the shit out of said zoner
27:11 Kouma has none of the weaknesses btw. I love him so much bruh. Also funnily enough pre Strive Sol also fits into this archetype really well
hey whatsup guys, here again to save you from the people who say first
they are all second now
8:58
It's time.
IT'S TIME
IT'S BEOWULF TIME!!
THE PIPES ARE BRO KEN
It's kinda funny how people react when given a solid argument that Guile isn't really a zoner anymore.
He's grown into more of a midrange footsies character.
What would be that argument? He is a zoner
Sol Badguy can be a shojo, rushdown, or grappler, or all 3. Depending on how much glue you're sniffing
I've actually not seen much Rule63 of Sol, now that you mention it...
One of the funkiest archetypes I've ever seen is Street Fighter 4's Hakan, "The Reverse Grappler". So you know how to beat most grapplers you generally want to keep your distance and weather them down with long range buttons and fireballs? This does not work on Hakan: He'll just lube himself up and slide into your DMs before you can even say Sonic Boom.
As long as Hakan is oiled up he can cancel his dash into any of his normals and cancel many of his normals into dashes, gets a full-screen low slide that beats fireballs and a lunging command grab that can scoop you from a shocking distance. This all comes with a big caveat: He needs space to oil himself up. Many of his specials put him at a good distance to set himself up, but he's basically half of a character until that point, so get in there and wrestle that large greasy man from India.
Probably my favorite video of yours so far
I agree with most of this video but:
I think the better label to “big bodies” is “Bruiser” since not every character with a big body is a slow but strong fighter, because there are characters like MVC Sentinel who is strong but is actually very mobile and not that strong.
And also I thought “Setplay” was the characters who set up an item on stage to control space and the characters with Mix-Ups were called “Mix-Ups”, maybe they are actually “trappers”, but looks like they are more common in Platformer fighters than traditional ones.
And I guess you missed the Composite characters.
Some archetypes explained by how someone who have fought in a school fight:
Rushdown: The kid who sees a fight and IMMEDIATELY swings a fist toward the other person's face. Then they beat the shit out of them when they're on the ground.
Grappler: The kid who tries to tackle the other person to the ground. Can be with actual wrestling techniques or just hair pulling.
Zoner: The kid who would splash milk in their face then throw their lunch tray at them. And their pencil. And their 10 pound textbook. And the chair.
Shoto: The kid who actually took some martal arts classes and tries to use them. They don't do it very well, but it still hurts.
Puppet: The one kid who's kinda frail, but has a friend or two who will jump in to help them, resulting into a dogpile.
Big Body: The one kid who fucking deadlifts and has a full beard by the 9th grade. No one fucks with this guy and anyone who does has their entire jawline rearranged 180 degress.
Stance: The kid who gets in a fighr and starts to Naruto hand symbols. Then they slap you.
I basically live in the rushdown clubhouse to the point where if I try out a character of any other archetype, I end up trying to play them as a rushdown character as well.
Man, this video made me hate Strive Ky because Xrd and +R Ky are more ranged based like Daisuke made a Zoner that controlled like a shoto. Sol Badguy plays roughly the same but had some stuff taken away but still played the same.
is it really ky kiske if his far slash doesn't reach across the entire screen?
my favorite characters are the ones with rekkas like Yamcha and Enkido they usually have really wierd normals from everybody else and really confusing mixups
Love it when you yell out the move names!
The big problem with motion inputs is it means you NEED a special controller for the game, because the D pad on a normal xbox controller is NOT going to work for a fighting game with motion inputs.
we puttin the cat ears mod on every character with this one
You should a series of videos about common terminology in the Fighting Game Community.
fuk, always got hiped up when the skullgirls menu theme starts
Dragunov and King are the ultimate Bully/Grappler combo’s. Way’s in, good mix up’s, great damage, beat the fuck out of people
Msmsmdmr is argueqbly my favorite term for a fireballl niw
3:53
Yes, because it goes under fireballs
14:46
Correct. As a zoner player myself, I relish in this. Making the opponent slowly apprach and annoying them is the goal. Fireballs tend to do little to no chip damage, so you really are just looking for an opening to punish.
29:03
Z Broly does have 2 downsides. His buttons leave him more open than others, and he does less damage than the rest of the cast thanks to his combo scaling. Often times you're better off keeping your combos as short as possible, as making them longer means you do less damage in total. He also gains less meter than the rest of the cast.
In short, amazing tools, stunted payoffs.
That doesn't make him not a monster though and I love that they did him justice in FighterZ
shoto with chilli flakes= sf6 ken
shoto basted in ambrosia cooked by tokido= sf4 akuma domination
Personally I like FGC characters with Guard Point or Countermoves if they're available
I eventually try all of them and go Random Roulette or my fave
Soul Of Mokujin11 Challenge!
2:34 Deserves a like already
25:45 way befor SF3, there was the gameplay from *Ring Of Destruction Slam Masters 2* which is a "combo grappler" type game.
But each wrestlers in the game has also they own archetype combining with grappling.
33:12 Another Name "Army Character"
He really gekked with this one
And then there's Virtua Fighter, where every character is rushdown, the closest it gets to zoning is footsies because there are no fireballs (though it being a 3d series adds a lot of depth to the footsies), and most of the cast has stances or command grabs or both. In short, all the characters defy such simple categorization because their toolkits are so balanced and adaptable to multiple gameplans.
But of course every character feels very distinct. Wolf has the most command grabs by a decent margin. Lion has by far the best lows, making his mixups very unique. While most characters have a couple of stances that change a few moves, Lei Fei has a full seven, with just about every move changing stance, and Vanessa has two completely non-overlapping movesets. El Blaze has a ridiculous run speed, completely changing his approach to footsies. Akira has busted guard breaks and combos that demand ridiculous execution. Kage's grappling is the best at ringouts. Taka's weight makes him immune to certain combos and he has some terrifying pokes. Shun Di has a meter and his moveset drastically expands as it's charged. Aoi can parry and counter pretty much anything. Et cetera et cetera.
All I know is that Azrael is the most fun fighting game character ever made.
6:06
And sol badguy
Thank you for this. I'm learning angel from Kof 14&15 and I just realized I've been playing her wwrong. Thanks man
Z Broly, to me, is Tekken 7 Marduk with the trade-off of Fireballs for Normals
Finally I (a dummy) can know the archetypes of fighting games
my favorite part of the video was showing Byakuya druring the setplay part but not showing why he's a setplay character lmao
This video deserves more views and likes!!