I am from another country, I experienced discrimination from white people and also black people, but as a Christian never took it personal, I prayed and ask God to forgive them, to open there hearts to know Christ and experience what True love is, true LOVE ❤️ of Christ has no colors, it makes no exceptions of person. I am so great full to God for giving me this tremendous privilege and opportunity to become a citizen of this great nation that I love very much.❤️❤️ God Bless you all
Systematic racism results in things like death, poor school systems, overly condemned to prison so yeah people are of course praying however action and boldness of speaking up is needed to, changing of policies, etc. Jesus spoke up against injustice and healed as well. He prayed and was bold with action. We are to be like him. It is not sinful to speak against injustice and try to change it. Jesus did!
@@zakiasimpson8928 please explain in what way a "poor school system" is evidence of systemic racism. As far as "overly condemned to prison" please give examples. Vague generalities does not a point prove.
Ezekiel 18:20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.
People do bear the responsibility for the choices they make, but at the same time, the reason for their choices is largely the result of those they are in close community with, their friends and family. The child abuser who themselves was abused as a child bears the responsibility for their own sin even though they were the product of child abuse. It can be difficult to break a cycle of sin in a family.
I'm not saying that traits don't trickle down sometimes. Tim Keller implied around the 8 minute mark that all white people are guilty for something their grandparents might have done. I'm a light skinned mutt. I have German and Jewish in me. I have Native American and European in me. Shall I hate myself for the iniquities my ancestors might have done to my ancestors? Of course not. The idea that we never move past the sins of past generations is insane.
@@michaelkelleypoetry No that is exactly what Tim Keller is saying here and in numerous other instances. Being personally guilty for the sins of your demographic or "group".
The bible does not say I am being held accountable for my ancestors sins, but for my own. He is distorting the gospel to fit his narrative. We should stand up for what is right and just, as we are commanded to do, but it is not out of corporate guilt, but because God first loved us, so we can love others.
Crow T Robot From The Satellite Of Love he never said the Bible holds us accountable for our ancestors sins. He did remind us however of how sin got here; through our ancestors. We, the whole human race, share in the sin of our ancestors. We, then, corporately share in sin. Simple.
So if Jesus came to show us how a righteous man that love God should live and he died for all of our sin. I think hes basically saying we r all connected and until we teach our kid the our world will never change. I also think hes saying staop turning a blind eye to thing. Teach the true history and knowledge that fact that for generations how hate was thought and still exist.
It is so true I'm still African American even though I'm a child of God. I see the systemic racism however I have learned to allow God to help me rise above it by remembering that He is in-control and to do all for Gods glory and only to build up His kingdom which consist of all cultures. I pray that the Lord's church can seek to look different from the culture so those who seek freedom in Christ can know they can find safety in the body.
I disagree with the interpretation of Daniel 9. I don't think he was asking for forgiveness for his ancestors. He was simply saying that the Israelite fathers were shamed by their sin. It also seemed that the children had yet to repent of the disobedience. I don't see anywhere in Scripture where we incur guilt from our fathers. Only true guilt of sin requires confessions, repentance, forgiveness, then restoration. The racist sins of our grandparents have been repetitive and legal changes were made.
I am saying this at the outset, before I have listened to this, and then If I have heard anything to change my mind I will recant. Life is hard. I have been treated poorly by people, cops, businesses, everyone. I have been stolen from and swindled, and the worst of the offenders have been white Christians, and I am a white Christian. If I was black and I experienced these things, I might believe it was racism. But its hard to accept that racism is at the heart of all wrongs against black people when I struggle against evils comited against me, by whites, and I'm white.
White people can be just as poor, just as oppressed, and struggle just as hard as any other race. I think the difference is that you likely have never faced this type of adversity as a direct result of your skin color. I don't think I've heard anyone say that every black person has a harder life than every white person. That simply isn't true. But if white people struggle and face adversity as we all do, it is almost never a direct result of their being white. I don't think we could generalize the same way about black people historically speaking.. and that is the problem.
@@galinswigart Historically speaking. No one argues that slavery, and Jim Crow were not a problems that needed to be fixed. It has been. Once a war is over, and there is victory, it is important to declare victory and end the war. If you keep waging war after victory then you will only create more enemies. The fact that all races have those who span the spectrum from rich to poverty is a sign of that victory. There is a term called warmongering. Do you think that no white person has ever been denied a job, denied an education, or treated poorly because of the color of their skin? If you do, then you have not paid attention lately. MLK said the dream was for a person to be judged by the content of their own character, not the color of their skin. This appears to have been true, finally, but now we are just recreating racism in the name of fighting racism. That doesn't sound like the dream MLK spoke of.
Still a factor. For some folks, a very real factor. Just because YOU "can't imagine"... i have no words - anyways you seem to be genuinely trying, make some friends outside of your norm, like, actually go to their church for a few weeks, make friends, let your kids play together, invite them over for dinner, have picnics together... eventually you'll see.
That connection with Daniel is amazing, thanks for the video. There are sometimes when God looks at the system like, "If one part body suffers, every part suffers with it (1 Corinthians 12:25-27)
Accountability is key! God is love. Love the LORD your God with all your heart mind and strength. And love you neighbor as yourself. If we as humans can do these two things through Holy Spirit we will please Him and help one another.
This comments section makes me want to cry, there are so many people missing the point. He is abdicating for humility and compassion, but people are so concerned about being considered racist that they miss the hurt of the people around us and our opportunities to lift them up. Christ did not defend himself on the cross he took all the sin on him. Are we not to be like Christ? Why are we not willing to be a part of the solution of systemic racism? Why do we think we have the right to do nothing because "I'm not racist". That's just selfish. We've been given the opportunity to do better. Let's not squander that!
This will end badly. I am not racist nor responsible for racist sins of others. If we assign guilt to everyone for the sin of ignorance of the the unconverted some, then we have just applied racism in that idea. I am a bad sinner, but I won't take blame for the sin I didn't commit. Beware of cultural Marxism. Antithetical to a Christian worldview. Imagine taking that principle and using it to condemn other groups. It is a hopeless idea.
@@Jamie-Russell-CME I think the point is being missed here. Have you ever had something bad happen to you or felt horrible about something and people either told you it was just in your head or to just get over it? That's what we do to others when we ignore the racial injustice they suffer. The point is compassion not guilt. When we make this about guilt we are taking the focus away from the ones who are suffering in order to make sure our name is cleared. A good thing for us to do is to listen to those who have experienced racial injustice and try to understand and support them. The Christian worldview is to love others as Christ has loved us. No exceptions.
I love this Pastor but I hope he knows these things: -At the height of slavery in America, only 2% of the population owned slaves (including free blacks and Native Americans) -The vast majority of white people in this this country are immigrants or the descendants of immigrants who came to America post-emancipation -Deuteronomy 24:16 Parents are not to be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their parents; each will die for their own sin. P.s. if it matters to anyone, I am a "person of color" who hates that term and can't stand seeing my white brothers and sisters be judged for the color of their skin. This must stop.
The 2% figure is completely off. See www.snopes.com/news/2019/08/07/percent-of-whites-owned-slaves/ and www.politifact.com/factchecks/2017/aug/24/viral-image/viral-post-gets-it-wrong-extent-slavery-1860/
@@brynnalynea Thanks. I'm aware of that data. I know that the 2% figure refers to slave masters and not their entire families, and when we take entire families into account (from the snopes article you shared): "Using census numbers for the percentage of families who held slaves, the nationwide calculation for the percentage of “families owning slaves,” is 7.4%, Rothman told us." So I wouldn't say the 2% figure is "completely off". The point is that only a small minority of whites owned slaves. The point stands.
@@nonenothing6094 thanks for your response. Do you have a source for that? Concerning "many" and "majority"? Also please see my other response in this comment thread.
Regarding Tim Keller's message, he has been a great pastor and worker for the Kingdom, but this sermon shows his lack of skills as a theologian. For example, if salvation through Christ was corporate in the same way that guilt through Adam is, then no one would have to believe. I think Keller makes a good argument in his message for universalism, which I no he disagrees with. Here's why. When I am born into the human race, I am a sinner because Adam and Eve changed human nature. I am born a slave to sin. I have no choice in the matter and don't have to believe anything. But to become redeemed from that slavery, I have to do something. My parents can't do it for me, and my society can't do it. I have to believe in Christ as God and Savior to be redeemed. It's very individualistic. Christian individualism was one of Christianity's greatest gifts to mankind. It did not do away with the role of our parents and society in helping us toward God, but it prevents society from punishing individuals for the crimes of others. As for systemic guilt, Keller made it clear that he is looking at outcomes and not processes as evidence for systemic guilt. But that is his socialism coming out. Socialists only care about outcomes and processes mean nothing. So if inequality exists, then socialists blame the system. But socialists are wrong and Christianity has always looked at processes as the means to justice, not outcomes. Christianity has always said if the process is just, then the system is just regardless of the outcomes. Keller reads only those people who are devout socialists and follow critical race theory. If he would read other people, sane people, he would see a completely different reality. Not all black people see the system as racist or at fault. It's dishonest to claim there is a "black" or "white" view of anything. They are a minority among blacks, but a significant one who do not blame the system or racism for the situation of blacks in America. Among them are Justice Clarence Thomas and black economists Drs. Thomas Sowell and Walter Williams. Whether or not the problem with blacks is system or individualist is a question of reality. Which side describes reality accurately? Justice Thomas and Drs. Sowell and Williams provide much better evidence that the problem with poor black people is not the system but poor individual choices. And it's a question of what constitutes justice, the outcomes or the process? Historic Christianity has always said justice is in the process. The idea that justice is the outcomes is the child of atheist socialists who insist that people are born good and turn bad only because of oppression. Christianity on the other hand has always insisted that people are born with a tendency toward sin and only God can change that.
I think Keller is working off the theological view that one's faith to believe the gospel comes from God and is not our own doing. That would not make it an individualistic doing.
This is one of the most well thought out and written comments I've seen on this video. I've listed to Walter Williams and Thomas Sowell a lot, but the idea that historic Christianity determines the system is just because the process is just regardless of the outcome really clarifies a lot for me. Do you have any additional resources that go into more details about that?
@@wptx2827 Thanks! I can't point to one book. I think the best think to do is get a good concordance and look at all of the verses in the Bible on justice. For example, Leviticus 19:15 says "'Do not pervert justice; do not show partiality to the poor or favoritism to the great, but judge your neighbor fairly." Many of the complaints about justice in the Bible are about the princes (that is, the government) perverting justide by bribing judges. Also, you might like Larry Seidentop's book "Inventing the Individual" in which he shows how the Church implemented Biblical principles over 1500 years, especially equality before the law. And John MacArthur has some good messages: www.gty.org/library/blog/B180907/the-injustice-of-social-justice
@@sunchoi2044 He claims to be a Calvinist, but he makes a lot of statements that contradict his Calvinism. Calvinism is neither corporate nor individual, since God does it all.
I appreciate much of the comments that help discern the flaw in this talk. A famous preacher could be famous for the wrong reasons and in this confusing time Christians must discern with sound understanding of Scriptures, economics, and social issues. I agree with previous comments in the discussion of federal sin from Adam and grace from Jesus Christ. Both cases show individual participation - whether the orientation to sin or the confession of need for salvation grace. Individualism means individual responsibility, which is exactly what the socialists oppose - I am poor and it must be somebody else' fault - which seems to be the view of this preacher. As for the Achan case, his sin did cause Israel to lose the battle of Ai, but when he was removed God brought Israel to victory. As tp why his the whole family was punished - how could we tell if Achan's sons and daughters were innocent? The only certainty is that God is just in His judgment. The example of car purchase assumes a racist bias in car buying. So what should be the solution? Affirmative action for car pricing? That certain race and sex would get a discount automatically? Does that make it fair? If we go down this road, then there should be one price for all, which is socialism. There might be many reasons that certain group tends to pay higher prices - such as that they are not flexible with their requirements or they do not like to waste time in bargaining. I am Asian and I could say that Asians generally pay much less than other groups because of our purchasing habits and price consciousness - we are willing to wait for sales and compromise on requirements. So should we Asians pay more now because it is unfair? This preacher has NO idea about how economics works - people pay what they are willing to pay and they have choices. To assume that a group is being ripped off just because they don't bargain is racist and sexist, as if to say they are too ignorant and need the help of this kind Christian white man. In this information-rich society it is easy to get advice about how to get a good deal. It is arrogant to assume that consumers of certain race and sex are too dumb or lazy and the industry is systematically racist. They are free to choose how to buy or sell without some race police to assign guilt. I strongly recommend books and interview with Dr. Thomas Sowell, Sr. Walter Williams, and Larry Elders. They have looked into the data and the policies before and after the civil rights movement, and their conclusions are that minimum wage, affirmative action, and lacking school choice are the policies that cause idle youths, broken families without fathers, and poor education that cause poverty and high crime rate. Black on black crime is a very serious problem. Do we care enough for these lives that we be honest to state the problem so that we could solve it? Or do we want to blame systematic racism in policing when the police is precisely what the poor blacks need for protection? Is virtue signaling more important than helping the needy? We all have to answer God before the Great White Throne. As for discrimination, Dr. Sowell's categorization is very helpful (check his interview with Dave Rubin). There are three levels of discrimination/discernment with different degrees of knowledge - individuals you know personally, groups you have encountered, and superficial impression for a whole race. Discernment about individuals and groups based on some information is crucial for wise decisions but racism is not justifiable because we cannot judge a person by the skin color. Recently because of Covid-19, I am sensitive to how others may perceive me as a Chinese. I have determined not to take offense if people distance from me. I should not expect the strangers around me to know that I did not travel to China recently and I do not accuse them of racism if they are fearful of Covid-19. As a Christian I am called to love even the enemy, am I not to love a stranger who is not even an enemy? When I don't take offense, racist thoughts cannot control me. This nation has worked hard not to discriminate based on race, and has done a better job than any nation on earth. To risk dividing the nation with a civil war that sacrificed 600K people. No nation on this earth has ever done that. I believe God has accepted the genuine repentance and has blessed America because of that. It take a longer time to change attitudes, but I can attest as a Chinese that there is no systematic racism in America now. I lived in Montgomery Alabama in the mid-80's and black, white and me the odd ball yellow worked very well together and had great fun. I lived in Dallas and again no systematic racism. Groups that are discriminated in their own land thrive here. The prominent example is the Jews. The more recent example is the Vietnamese refugees. When these "boat people" first arrived, there were some adjustment, but now that group has totally integrated into the society and become very responsible and respectable people. The Indians are thriving here too. We are all grateful. White guilt is a pure lie from Satan the accuser. I notice that around the coastal regions, people tend to think that Americans in the south and the middle of the country are mostly republicans and are racists. That is true with how the Chinese in San Francisco and my Christian friends perceive. But the sad irony is that they have never lived outside the Bay Area. One Christian lady used a brief encounter in the 1960's to maintain this racist impression. I think all Christians should ask themselves whether they themselves are the racists against fellow Americans outside their own area. I have been welcomed by the black and the white everywhere so my testimony is that Americans are not racists. I urge everyone to study Revelation. Chapter 18 prophesies the collapse of globalization, then the anti-Christ will appear. I think the Covid-19 situation reveals that our society is looking more and more toward governmental control rather than taking the effort to discern the reality and to act responsibly. The technology is mature for centralized control. Are we training the next generation to think critically so not to be deceived by Satan's lies and threatened to submit? Are we able to discern and refuse the mark of the beast when it is imposed? The lawlessness and the direct affront to the laws of God's creation (nuclear family, sexuality, etc.) show that the restrainer has been lifted. The Gospel has probably reached the end of the earth. I think the Lord's message to the church in Laodicea is fitting for American churches: Rev 3:18 I counsel you to buy from me gold refined by fire, so that you may be rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself and the shame of your nakedness may not be seen, and salve to anoint your eyes, so that you may see. 19 Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline, so be zealous and repent. As for coming out of the adulterous and immoral culture (Babylon), Rev 18:4 calls us: 4 Then I heard another voice from heaven saying, “Come out of her, my people, lest you take part in her sins, lest you share in her plagues; I don't know if Rev Keller would read this, but I pray that the fear of God would lead him to repent and stop using the Bible to support his bias that is greatly tainted by the culture of immorality and socialism. I do wonder why all the big cities are the ones that oppress the poor the most, turning a blind eye to crime, poor education, and abortion. The recent discrimination against worship gathering blatantly dishonors God yet the churches are silent. What are these mega church pastors doing? I think they are leading the churches to be candy shops, not salt and light. Sugar causes obesity and diabetes, adding infection to the society.
There are multiple problems with the principle in this video. One obvious problem is, if we are collectively responsible for all sin on a community, then it would be impossible for Jesus to be a spotless lamb of God. He lived among sinners in a sinful community. By the standards Dr Keller lay out in this video, Jesus would be a sinner. Ezekiel 18 removes humanity from rendering judgment of corporate evil, undermining his thesis. God and God alone can judge corporate guilt. I would also add that the solution to corporate evil begins with the assembly of the Church and ends with Christ leveling the systems of man and implementing his perfect system of justice at His coming. Applying Marxist-inspired Critical Theory will not solve the problem of systemic evil.
Also, all of the proof-texts for corporate guilt are in the Old Testament. In Christ we are crucified to the world. While we are charged by the law of love to act out good citizenship as salt in the world, we do not have a burden to engage in political action to assuage guilt - guilt that was taken away by the Cross.
Joshua Mwaura the whole world is evil , why would any Christian believe that he can fix this so called “ systemic evil” or be responsible for it ? Mans heart is evil and desperately wicked, who can know it ? How would we fix it ? What is right, who does right ? Only God
Those of us who are white, and started with nothing, cannot be personally blamed for the sins of our ancestors. Black from Africa were sold to Whites from America by their Black countrymen. Is this a guilt that should be carried by all Black people? No - we are all responsible to behave justly in our generation and with our own personal choices. This concept of group identity and group guilt is going to cause huge problems. If it is also mixed with the ignoring of Black guilt and bad choices, along with government policies that have harmed Black families, then NOTHING will be solved.
He is absolutely correct about God holding us accountable for what our ancestors did. It was prophesied that the true isrealites would go into slavery on ships because of what our forefathers did. Deutoronomy 28:68. He also said he who ledth into captivity will go into captivity. So white people will become our slaves when Yahweyshi returns. It's in tge Bible.
I neither wish to affirm not negate what Tim Keller has to say here. However, I will say that his opinions mean no more and no less than anyone else's and we just beware of falling down the celebrity pastor rabbit hole.
im Keller is currently one of the preachers I deeply respect in the U.S. I see him as a light for the age. However, I differ from him on this topic. First, I am black, but a black whose identity lies not in my racial identity but in Christ. I will here outline my differences for the sake of the Lord's body. 1. The idea of corporate guilt is just not a scriptural truth. It is even anti-Christian for If this were true, then even Jesus would need repentance. He wouldn't be a lamb without blemish because the family he was born into and the race he identified with also has an evil past. 2. The sermon only makes sense because it is a White Man's perspective. While that is ok as a sermon for the White, it would be dangerous for a Black Christian to take this perspective. Sadly, the White is less likely to accept this sermon and the Black is more likely to take it by heart. 3. I will further explain point 2 using his own illustration. There are two ways to resolve the problem of women who can't negotiate a car deal. The 'Left-Leaning mind' would focus on the sellers and create a market that gives special consideration to the women, which, however, could come as unfair to the other buyers. But the 'Right-Leaning mind' would focus on the Women rather than the Seller. Rather than tilt the market to the advantage of one group, the 'Right' would argue for women to be provided more market information and offered more training on negotiation to achieve equality. One focus on changing the entire system and tilting it to favor a particular group, but the other focus on that 'group' and equiping them to compete better in the system. It is simple, A good teacher won't change the standard of an exam to accommodate a failing student, he would focus on the student instead. While the former appeals to the Christian with a desire to help, it is however not true Justice and not the gospel. Tim Keller's message was left-leaning. 4. Why is it dangerous for blacks to take this message by heart. Because it creates an entitlement. I start to feel that I am entitled to been loved or given some preference by White or the system. Christ never wanted us to feel entitled to someone's Love. He wants us to give Love. Any gospel that makes you feel entitled to receiving Love is wrong, the true gospel makes you feel responsible to give Love. It is my responsibility to Love the White, and I am not entitled to his Love. Although with an inaccurate analysis of what entails 'injustice, this sermon shows the White a 'Love-responsibility'. But it, however, ties the black man to a 'Love-entitlement'. It is not 'gospel' to a black man. I wish Tim Keller delved a little further, to analyze a 'black man's perspective' in which he would have touched this entitlement. The black must let go the past to seek the White as well. Like a buyer focusing on self-development rather than changing the standards, and like a student focusing on improving his score to pass rather than changing the pass-mark, he must see his own responsibility to uplift himself and his fellow blacks. It doesn't matter what our history may be. Once a black man is in Christ, he can't see things like the world does anymore. I know what I said sounds antithetical to what social justice warriors stand for, but I have spent time with scripture before coming to this realization. I learned to put my race, gender, or any other identity behind me when I come to the word of Christ. I realize that even my racial identity as a black need to be crucified on the cross of Christ if I must see him.
Brilliant, De’. I am a big fan of Pastor Keller, and am disappointed to see him go this direction. By his logic the Jesus’ first disciples should have fought for justice. Oh wait... John 18:36.
Scripture before personal opinion. Always the way to go. If we are all made in the image of God, as His Word says, His image can’t possibly be a skin shade, or the thousands of other differences of appearance. His image is something else. Something we can all share and can’t possibly get any closer to by using the empty man-made labels of race. I cannot reconcile someone else’s sin by perpetuating that sin through identifying as any race other than the one that was made in the image of God. No one can pretend that relative to some people I don’t appear “tall”, nor can we pretend that relative to some I don’t appear “white”. To give any more power to one physical characteristic over another is the devils work and he rejoices each time we wrap ourselves around the self congratulatory label of anti-racist. I cannot move away from sin by focusing on it. “Racism” is an end result, tunnel visioned, mislabeling of what we all do to each other, inherent to our personal inborn sin; we want to decide what and who is important. Every labeled group has marginalized, criticized, raped, murdered, and slandered those who look like them before also doing it to those outside that labeled group. Allowing ourselves to be reconciled to God through Christ Jesus, is the only work I can do to be reconciled to the rest of His children. Then, in obedience to Him, I can be his witness to Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria, and to the ends of the earth. Never being concerned about my flesh tone and that of others.
#1 - The way to solve the problem about the car dealership is to set fair prices that are non-negotiable so that everyone knows ahead of time what they are paying. Doing this means overall profit may go down because they won't make money on someone who pays more than they should because they don't negotiate well. It doesn't have to be a left/right way. Setting fair non-negotiable prices isn't "giving special consideration" to anyone, and neither does it force someone to have to learn the skill of negotiating in order to simply buy a car.
@@heatherniemisavage You are right Heather. Most things really are not right/left answers. Christ transcends our philosophically polarized compass. I was only using Keller's illustration to show the left-leaning nature of his view, especially as that perspective isn't the biblical truth. I am happy Christians are getting more involved in this discourse. By the way, it's so sad to see George Floyd's demise. God help us pursue Justice by his Word.
Religious people, help me out here. At the 2 minute mark, he begins speaking about individual vs familial/social responsibility in the book of Joshua, and seems to support/justify the harsh sentence for the family, saying that white Americans just don't understand this. So to take this to it's logical conclusion, and applying this to America today, does this means that when a criminal gets sentenced to prison, his mom, dad, brother, and sister should also be tossed into the clink?
I just saw this video today!! I think I may have an answer to your question??? Sin is a corporate evil in this regard when Adam and Eve transgressed God commanded in the garden all of humanity became transgressors not because of the act of Adam but because of the nature of Adam. So we are not Sinners because we act like sinners we are sinners because we are born as sinners. Enemies of God children of the world who need to be saved from the wrath of God his judgment and his punishment. So the reason why the family was killed and put to death the idea was to stop the evil in the Rebellion from continuing. So because 450 years of chattel slavery of African Americans are over does not mean that the mental slavery of segregation and systematic racism is over. Peace!!
I think he cited Daniel Chapter 9. Ethnic groups or what the Bible calls nations, suffer for the sin of their ancestors. God often punishes a nation corporately for turning away from him and towards sin.
Bad exegesis by Keller, IMO. Can't go back to living under a law made for civil Jewish state at that time. Stoning disobedient children wouldn't go over well.
@@davidwilliams4648 and we'll always have it because of a fallen world. But current realities prove it is markedly better today than 50 years ago: mixed marriages, black 2 term president, successful black owned businesses, black judges, police chiefs, sherrifs, congressmen, high ranking government officials, teachers, lawyers, doctors.....and on and on. Don't stay in a camp that acts like no progress has been made. They just haven't lived long enough.
Jordan Peterson addresses this subject well. He says that in the Old Testament the Israelites were caught up in the idea of the greatness of the nation. But God was always bringing them back to the idea that if they forgot about the orphans and widows, the strangers and foreigners he would bring an enemy against them in judgment. So there is this constant cycle of the state rising and falling as they at first embraced social justice and then ignored it. They repent and get it right and begin to rise again, only to forget about it again and fall again. But in the New Testament, there is a change in conceptualisation of salvation. The fundamental mistake was in individuals looking to the state for salvation rather than individually accepting responsibility. Their identity became wrapped up in the idea of the utopian state. And this can be true with whatever group you identify with - the American state - the Russian State, the Church, or whatever religion or group you might identify with. Its also true for the social justice groups with individuals who find their identity and “salvation” through association with those groups. Jesus turned the whole thing on its head in the New Testament and said no - it's not about any of those external factors. Its each of us individually. “the Kingdom of God is with you” Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, "The kingdom of God does not come with observation; nor will they say, 'See here!' or 'See there!' For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you." (Luke 17:20-21) It's so easy to identify with a group that gives us an identity and warm feelings and forget about individual responsibility “do unto others at they would have them do unto you” and “love your enemies” So many of us identify with a certain church, group or even state and ignore our personal social responsibilities. We satisfy ourselves that our “group” is the right. “Why do you quote this proverb concerning the land of Israel: ‘The parents have eaten sour grapes, but their children’s mouths pucker at the taste’? As surely as I live, says the Sovereign LORD, you will not quote this proverb anymore in Israel. For all people are mine to judge-both parents and children alike. And this is my rule: The person who sins is the one who will die. “Suppose a certain man is righteous and does what is just and right. He does not feast in the mountains before Israel’s idols or worship them. He does not commit adultery or have intercourse with a woman during her menstrual period. He is a merciful creditor, not keeping the items given as security by poor debtors. He does not rob the poor but instead gives food to the hungry and provides clothes for the needy. He grants loans without interest, stays away from injustice, is honest and fair when judging others, and faithfully obeys my decrees and regulations. Anyone who does these things is just and will surely live, says the Sovereign LORD. “But suppose that man has a son who grows up to be a robber or murderer and refuses to do what is right. And that son does all the evil things his father would never do-he worships idols on the mountains, commits adultery, oppresses the poor and helpless, steals from debtors by refusing to let them redeem their security, worships idols, commits detestable sins, and lends money at excessive interest. Should such a sinful person live? No! He must die and must take full blame. “But suppose that sinful son, in turn, has a son who sees his father’s wickedness and decides against that kind of life. This son refuses to worship idols on the mountains and does not commit adultery. He does not exploit the poor, but instead is fair to debtors and does not rob them. He gives food to the hungry and provides clothes for the needy. He helps the poor, does not lend money at interest, and obeys all my regulations and decrees. Such a person will not die because of his father’s sins; he will surely live. But the father will die for his many sins-for being cruel, robbing people, and doing what was clearly wrong among his people. “‘What?’ you ask. ‘Doesn’t the child pay for the parent’s sins?’ No! For if the child does what is just and right and keeps my decrees, that child will surely live. The person who sins is the one who will die. The child will not be punished for the parent’s sins, and the parent will not be punished for the child’s sins. Righteous people will be rewarded for their own righteous behavior, and wicked people will be punished for their own wickedness. (Ezekiel 18:2-20) ua-cam.com/video/CCww_LTfJz8/v-deo.html
Great response - do you think the ideas of "greatness of our nation" can be easily transferred to "greatness of our race"? And if true, doesn't that mean that we, as whatever race we are, bear some responsibility for how other members of our race treat other races? In other words, was "judging correctly" in John 7:24 commanded to Israel corporately, or Israelites individually?
Joshua Jones Is a Bosnian immigrant who survived genocide in his homeland a white American who shares in the corporate guilt that is imputed to all whites? Survivors of the Armenian genocide? Gay white people? White Argentines? Russian-speaking Kyrgyz? Disabled Tartars? As long as they immigrate to western nations do they take on all the white guilt? What do you do with people of mixed heritage or dual nationality? How do we calculate their corporate guilt? In fact, many whites grow up in neighborhoods, or high schools, or cities where they are minorities themselves. Designating majority/minority status on a national basis is arbitrary. It can be designated at other levels just as reasonably. There are also categories beyond race that can put someone in a minority/majority context. The truth is that there are many complex reasons why different categories of people might not have the same outcome in a given situation. That does not make every process that results in disparate outcomes inherently evil. There is always a political collectivist agenda behind claims of white privilege. It's a repackaging of warmed-over cultural Marxism, just with bourgeoisie and proletariat replaced with whatever new class concepts you want to use in a modern dialectic. You can repackage Marxism away from class and replace it with race, gender, etc and get the same result. It's divide and conquer for the totalitarians and virtue signallers. A lot of people that talk about systemic racism and evil and systemic race injustice are self-righteous as they do it, not willing to resign the privileges they think everyone else should ua-cam.com/video/CCww_LTfJz8/v-deo.html
@@amazinglovemission You read a lot into my response that wasn't there. I didn't mention the term white privilege. I didn't mention Marxism. I didn't even mention systemic racism. All I *asked* - and it was a question, is whether or not there is such a thing as collective responsibility. If you say *no* to that, there's going to be some problems. Like, what does the Bible mean when it says Rome, or Babylon, or Gomorrah? And yes, it won't be easy to surrender wealth, or power, or land - but look at Christ. What did He command? What did He surrender?
@@joshuajones7210 The context of the video and subsequent discussion is, in no small part, white privilege. I was addressing an element of this so I don't think it's unreasonable to infer it here. The idea of white privilege has a strong connection to cultural Marxism. I think your subsequent questions reveal it's on the right track
I like Tim Keller, but I’m not sure if I agree with this speech. The gospel is this: we are all sinners in need of a savior, and we are redeemed through faith in Jesus Christ. Yes, corporate responsibility is a thing, and our sin doesn’t just affect ourselves; but, suggesting whites should repent for the sins committed by men a generation or two before us, I’m not sure if that’s right. Yes, slavery existed. Yes, it was wrong. Yes, racism exists. Yes, it is wrong. I’m not sure what we are supposed to do about it other than “love our neighbor as ourself.” Some blacks are demanding reparations, is that something Tim Keller agrees with? Should whites have to give money to blacks even if our ancestors didn’t have slaves? Should Jews be demanding reparations from Germans? Heck, should I have to apologize to Jews just because I have German blood in me? Apologizing for a crime you didn’t commit is ridiculous. I can be compassionate and understanding about racial injustice, and I condemn what happened to George Floyd, but don’t condemn me for something a person with similar skin color did- that’s the exact thing that black people are upset about. Judge each man according to his own deeds. Just because I’m white doesn’t make me racist. Just because a person is black doesn’t make them a criminal. Judge each man according to his fruit.
"It is not our business to become involved in #slavery. Those are #social issues. We have been called to #preach the #gospel. We must deliver the Word. We must save people's #souls. We must not get involved in the issues of liberating people from the chains of slavery. If they accept #Jesus #Christ as their Savior, by and by they will be free - over there." - Tom Skinner quoting "the [strangely #silent ] #evangelical, Bible-believing, #fundamental, #orthodox, #conservative church" (from keynote address at #InterVarsity #Christian Fellowship's 1970 Urbana Conference) 🛐✝
Tim makes some insightful points. For all us white Christians we don’t fully understand the effects of our culture on our attitudes and behavior towards others. Martin Luther King Jr’s letter from the Birmingham jail is a good illustration.
And signal all the evangelically influenced people complaining about his message of corporate responsibility when this talk about systemic racism is the most biblically sound ever!!! Thank you to this amazing man! The white patriarchal evangelical church will hate this message but this is what Christ would say - we may not have to pay for the sins of our fathers but we do need to pay for a system that our white fathers have set up that we as white sons benefit the most from. Bless this amazing man!
He does a great job describing a system and leaves it to our imagination as to what the system actually is. Is a church system, a federal government system, state or local system? What actually is the systems rules and practices that are based on ‘race’ or actually ethnicity? Theory is useless if not grounded in reality and the practical.
He gave some examples in his stories: car dealership, school, criminal system. I think his point is that we need to retrain our eyes to see these systems in place that we take part in but do not take responsibility for.
illuminaries Regarding criminal justice, black community leaders pushed hard to get harder sentencing for crack cocaine dealers, which disproportionately put blacks in jail for a long time. How about 7000 blacks were killed last year mostly by other blacks. How about 70% of black kids growing up without dads in the home. Car dealerships, it’s one car dealership he said was studied and I would need a study to learn how that translates to a systemic issue. We are in a federal government system and generally the most power is on the hands of the local mayors then governors. Check out Chicago, it’s a nightmare. Who runs Chicago, who runs NYC? It’s easy to see whose policies are at work and whose policies I already condemn and have condemned my adult life.
Eric S negotiating for a car or anything else is a skill, not a racial issue. The dealer tries to get the most he can from each person.. is that right ? It’s the dealer’s individual choice , not mine . Why would I be responsible for the wickedness of another persons heart ? I am not big enough to take on his sin ... only Jesus can and did do that
The thing I love the most about Islam is that if you do bad things you know you are going to hell. No one is going to die for your sins. It restores accountability to the human spirit.
I don't know anyone who is unable to stop sinning before they die. People who love God but realize they still sin can see they need God's grace & forgiveness. God has demanded blood be spilled for sin, and he also said animal blood was not good enough, so God himself came to earth through the person of Jesus, who was God incarnate, in the flesh of man, and he walked & talked & taught what God wants & about sin is. He then took our sins on himself. We have the responsibility of choosing to accept that sacrifice for us, and to change with the help of God's Spirit. Read Jesus' parable of the farmer who scattered seed. It's a metaphor for how people hear the word & how they respond to it. Some never take root & die spiritually. Some start but turn back to sin & die. Some though do grow deep roots in God's word & grow spiritually. They are people who put God first. People who follow islam who reject Christ have rejected God's loving sacrifice for their sins. Please pray for Jesus to reach put to you & show you himself through whatever means he chooses to. Read who he is in the book of John.
2 Kings 14:6 But HE DID NOT PUT TO DEATH THE CHILDREN OF THE MURDERERS, ACCORDING TO WHAT IS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW OF MOSES, WHERE THE LORD COMMANDED, “Fathers Shall Not Be Put To Death Because Of Their Children, Nor Shall Children Be Put To Death Because Of Their Fathers. But EACH ONE SHALL DIE FOR HIS OWN SIN.” Deuteronomy 24:16 “Fathers Shall Not Be Put To Death Because Of Their Children, Nor Shall Children Be Put To Death Because Of Their Fathers. Each One Shall Be Put To Death FOR HIS OWN SIN. Exodus 34:7 Keeping steadfast love for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, but who will by no means clear the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children and the children's children, to the third and the fourth generation.” Numbers 14:18 ‘The Lord is slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love, forgiving iniquity and transgression, but he will by no means clear the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, to the third and the fourth generation.’ Ezekiel 18:19-20 “Yet YOU SAY, ‘Why Should Not The Son Suffer For The Iniquity Of The Father?’ When the son has done what is just and right, and has been careful to observe all my statutes, he shall surely live. the soul who sins shall die. THE SON SHALL NOT SUFFER FOR THE INIQUITY OF THE FATHER, NOR THE FATHER SUFFER FOR THE INIQUITY OF THE SON. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and The Wickedness Of The Wicked SHALL BE UPON HIMSELF. Jeremiah 31:29-34 In those days they shall no longer say: “‘The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge.’ But EVERYONE SHALL DIE FOR HIS OWN SIN. Each man who eats sour grapes, his teeth shall be set on edge. “Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the Lord. But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. ... Galatians 6:7-8 DO NOT BE DECEIVED: God is not mocked, for WHATEVER ONE SOWS, THAT WILL HE ALSO REAP. For The One Who Sows To His Own Flesh Will From The Flesh Reap Corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. Romans 12:19 Beloved, NEVER AVENGE YOURSELVES, but Leave It To The Wrath Of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.”
Thank you ! Great verses , very helpful . I’m just not “woke” and I don’t worship “woke” theology . We each stand before the Lord , individually . God sees Jesus’ righteousness, not my sins. I am not held accountable for my father’s sins , or anyone else’s . 🤷♀️. That’s my understanding . There is nothing new under the sun, there is injustice everywhere , and it will continue until the Lord returns . Only He can bring justice and healing .
I'm not entirely sure that I know exactly what message you're trying to get across, but if it's that corporate evil does not exist, the systems that oppress people on a massive, national scale are only possible if the society is compliant with those who uphold the system internally. Allowing someone's sin to fester without confronting it is sin. It is _your_ responsibility and obligation to speak against the system that paints vulnerable people as criminals or "bad people", and if you don't, you're guilty. Silence is violence, as many are saying today. If what was spoken still doesn't make sense, I'll spell it out: DISCIPLINE. Proverbs 13:24 ~ "Whoever spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him is diligent to discipline him." Galatians 6:1 ~ "Brothers, if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted." Proverbs 29:15 ~ "A rod of correction imparts wisdom, but a child left to himself disgraces his mother." Note that it says the child disgraces his _mother_ , not _himself_ . Titus 2:15 ~ "Declare these things; exhort and rebuke with all authority. Let no one disregard you. " It is everyone's responsibility to call out sin for what it is. That's what Jesus did time and time again (read Luke 11).
An interesting compilation of verses but dropping the wider context. If you believe in the concept of Original sin, how do you reconcile those verses with that concept? If you do not believe in the concept of Original sin, you probably do not if you strongly reject corporate guilt, how do you explain that we have to be born outside of Eden and from communion with God because of the sin that Adam and Eve did, and now needing Jesus? The Bible is based on judgment against corporate guilt. Just think of Daniel and Ezekiel and many other good people who went to exile with them. Why did they have to suffer and receive the punishment for the sin of corporate Israel in the form of Babylonian exile? Those are just a few examples if you are willing to think deeper into what the Bible is all about.
@@BlueGrovyle I disagree with your presupposition that there is a problem with racism. I see the problem as deeper. I agree that discipline is always needed along with accountability but so is discernment. Discernment to see that an agenda for your mind is at hand and those behind it want us divided using the tool of racism. It is already dividing churches who should be teaching we are one race under Adam. I hope you watch Voddie's talks.
There is a Worldy philosophy (That humans learn from the world and that shapes how they think- Our System of thought) and the Biblical or Word Philosophy ( Our System of Thought based on the word of God- Romans 12:2) with all due respect to Tim Keller his philosophy is based on the former. Paul clearly writes how Biblical philosophy is in 2 Corinthians 5:17. Tim is allowed to think about how he wants to however he should say it according to the word of God.
@@jeffreyyoungblood7438 I don't think so. Timothy Keller wants people to repent of systemic racism--which doesn't exist--rather than bring up something we all know exists, abortion. And btw, abortion kills 300,000 black babies per year, now if we want to talk about systemic racism we should talk about the abortion industry. Black babies make up 35% of aborted babies. I'd hate to talk about problems we can actually see and lives we can actually save though. Instead, lets talk about "implicit bias" and "unconscious bias"
@@realperson4494 If you can talk about "systemic" with the abortion issue, then it can certainly happen with racism. And being a white guy who has talked to black friends who have experienced it, thankfully God gives me enough empathy to understand it and to be, prayerfully, part of the solution. And I thank God for that.
I think this talk is really great but a pity that he ended it the way that he did and didn't go into detail to flesh out the idea of self-righteous anger and righteous anger. The emotions behind systemic oppression are real and holy. If we miss the anger and pain that are being experienced we are missing the complete picture of what's wrong and what needs to be done to bring healing. I think part of the cultural blindness also applies to how we perceive emotionality. In Western culture, emotionality is seen as something bad. Something to ignore, suppress, and push down in order to be truly objective, but the Bible again and again honours the emotions humans have as part of the complete human experience. The anger and hurt shouldn't be directed at people in order to make others feel enslaved to shame or guilt, but it's also not helpful to tune out the raw frustration that people experiencing oppression are feeling. Christians on the receiving end must receive and be secure in their grace, and Christians on the giving end must also show grace.
Actually the old testament is collectivist but the new is individualistic. (Teeth set on edge etc.) We should not be condemned for others sins, but we should recognise the extent to which we may have been influenced by the spirit that caused the error.
@@bobpolo2964 God said in Jeremiah 29 that children would no longer be held responsible for the sins of their fathers. Yes in the Old testament an individual had to to become righteous through self improvement and this could be seen as individualistic. But in terms of guilt and faith the OT is collectivist. In terms of other's needs the NT is collectivist. It's not clear cut. If we believe in equality before God and before the law then we will respect everyone as an individual because no matter what group or status a person belongs to they must be treated the same.
@@burdoch1 I'm not aware of the OT teaching anything about righteousness being earned through self-improvement. Paul would strongly disagree with that claim. I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose. Galatians 2:21
I just listen to this... I am confused by what he is trying to accomplish here... our churches are trying to please society as a whole but when you go after a certain group it causes anger. I am Hispanic and for the life of me I do not know where I fit into all of this. But my church wants me to read and listen to this and I don't agree with some of this. I have black members in my family and I have white members in my family and I love them all. I am married to a American Italian woman who has 2 sons that are also half German. They are my sons now when I married her and I love them dearly. (I have 3 sons of my own) I have a lot of black friends and white friends. I pray for all. I pray for love and peace. I pray for a better country and world. This is a group affair. All sides need to get together and figure out what needs to be done but that will never happen. There are people (all races) out there that don't ever want to see it happen. Jesus is my Savior. He died for me. Hopefully this makes some sense out there. I am just disappointed with it all.
Well, if a brother is starving and you see him would it be better to give him food (deal with it) or just ignore it and pray about it? The same question can be applied to race, if you see injustice should you speak about or should you just ignore it and pray about it?
Unfortunately, Tim has become a false teacher and has bowed his knee to CRT and the Social Justice Gospel which is a false gospel. Ignore this man but pray for him to stop seeking the approval of the world.
His story at 15:00 is a good example of the SJW mindset. Unequal results are not necessarily unjust, nor are they necessarily an indication of injustice.
@@finnyjoy4520 Sure. Inequalities can be caused by a lot of things, including divine choice and human choice. God creates people with different abilities and puts them in different positions, so he's ok with inequality. We cannot say that just because there's an inequality, it means someone oppressed someone else. With the example Keller gave at 15:00, it isn't possible to be consistent with the type of reasoning he applied. That would mean all negotiation would be unjust, because some group of people might be worse at negotiating than others. We'd have to eliminate basically all competition to get the kind of equality he's calling for. And I'm not saying this because I'm a "typical white person" who refuses to see injustice (if I were even a white person), it's because I'm reasoning through this and it just doesn't make sense. God doesn't tell us to make sure outcomes are equal. He does tell us to use honest weights, which basically means don't tell people you're giving them one thing while giving them another. It would certainly be unjust if the sellers in Keller's story were dishonestly switching out prices for different groups, but they weren't. Social justice says there must be equal results to have justice, God's justice says we must apply standards equally to all. (This may very well result in inequalities!) The short answer is that the expectation for equal results is a man-made thing, and is not something God requires in his Word.
injustice is literally precisely that, partiality. "unequal results are not necessarily unjust." sure, without context that statement makes sense. the problem is, Keller provided context, and within that context the example provided is the epitome of partiality, or injustice. how you commented that without realizing the obvious contradiction is actually mind boggling!
@@sonnyankau9239 I totally disagree. This is not partiality. No one was switching prices when they see a certain type of person coming. What he's talking about is ethics based on result, which is incoherent. I stand by it: inequality is not necessarily injustice. If inequality is injustice, the world doesn't make sense. It would mean God himself is unjust.
@@joelebert9767 you don't see it as partiality because it isn't intentional or direct. unfortunately for you partiality doesn't always work that way. nor is it dependent on either of those things to exist.
Love Tim Keller but I am lost on some of his premises. I I don't think I'm alone in saying I don't necessarily feel there is a white culture in America or that white Americans necessarily see each other in these terms. There is so much diversity that we have more in common based on our values and beliefs. Skin color alone is not what binds us. I have more in common with my black brothers and sisters in Christ then I do with my atheist white next door neighbor. Linsanity was a bad example. The Chinese are a nationality not an entire race. Whites may not rally around someone just because he or she is white (the Great White Hope?) but certainly people are proud of those accomplished athletes who share the same ancestry or nationality.
I grew up PCA and loved Tim Keller too but recently more of this has come to light and I found many of his books also push these ideas (past 10-20 years actually). Generous Justice is one example. I would really dig into some of these claims hes making and try to find his Biblical support. The biblical support for his claims of corporate sin/guilt were not logical or supported by other theologians from what I could find. He chastises large groups of people, mostly all white people, for a myriad of problem minorities face with extremely unsound and unbiblical logic.
@@jeffreyyoungblood7438 I never made a claim to having any "feelings" one way or another (as part of the majority or minority). That's the whole point, you're feelings do not indicate the truth. My daughters feelings get hurt when I put her doll in the wrong place according to her so she cries. I love her and help her but I don't have to agree with her that her emotional response was valid. I can be compassionate yet at the same time refute what someone is saying even if its about their emotions. Because they can deceive you.. I don't have to have the emotional experience of black people to justly look at their situation. Logical analysis and reflection on the Bible is what determines whether there are injustices. Corporate sin or guilt is not supported in the Bible, feel free to show me otherwise or link some other theologian who supports an idea of being guilty of sin from your people group or demographic. I looked and couldn't find any and was turned back to passages like below that clearly says, we are only guilty of our sin. biblia.com/bible/esv/ezekiel/18
@@jeffreyyoungblood7438 well I did live In Japan for a while as a missionary. I certainly remember rooting for Akebono the American sumo wrestler. Of course, he was Hawaiian though.
I'm sorry but I really don't understand his premise. If we are responsible for our community or for corporate guilt, why is salvation such a personal choice? Why is sin removed only by the personal commitment to Christ we make? Why doesn't Jesus's sacrifice just save everyone? I'm fundamentally not getting what he's saying about sin. I can understand silence being complicity in sin (1 Cor 5:6 or even Joshua 7 being examples of people bearing responsibility for knowing silence) but if we are so radically associated with others sin or success, why have personal grace? What does that even mean anymore? What are the delineations of my responsibility vs yours? I usually like Tim Keller for his thought out approach but this was so careless that I'm upset.
You don't understand because he's reaching. He's wrong. What he's doing is called critical race theory. Watch this video for helpful discussion on it. ua-cam.com/video/FwyJk1G_Dm0/v-deo.html
because many people in the meaningless "christian" religion believe the "gospel" to mean anything they want. not jesus' life, death, resurrection, and asencion, but literally anything can be added/ removed. when speakers talk about "the gospel", they often do not even give a definition, but prey on the traditionalism of religious people's assumptions about religious words. this is why i no longer go to church: you inevitably fall under the control of community-brain, which is always being controlled by leaders and their chums.
Tim is obviously making a one sided argument since he did not address the following scriptures: Deuteronomy 24:16 Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their fathers; each is to die for his own sin. Ezekiel 18:20 The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him.
People say they want an honest conversation, but it’s rare they really do. As a white person, I can take the idea I am partly responsible for a system, and I need to repent and help make it right. I tithe, go beyond by donating to minority causes, and work professionally to help the poor. None of this is to make myself feel better, but out of a true conviction of what our race did. But when I’m told I STILL don’t know enough/do enough, I start to feel defensive. When I’m told I’m still a racist when I’m trying to be open and learn, it’s defeating.
For all of you (coincidentally, most of whom are White Americans...) who are so up in arms about this sermon, even though this may be a useless attempt on my behalf... if I may, please allow me to offer you this example to help explain his message a little better: My aunt remembers the last time she set foot in a church. It was some time in the 50's when she was very young (maybe 7 or 8 at the time) and my Grandmother wanted to take her and her younger brothers (my father and uncle) to church. She took them to the nearest chapel in the city where they lived at that time. Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that my Grandmother and her children were all Black. So you can imagine what happened when they walked into what happened to be a White church... My Grandmother entered the church with her three children and proceeded to a seat near the front so that they would be able to hear and see everything, well. As they made their way down the isle, they were approached by members of the Church staff and basically, turned away. My aunt remembers how humiliating it was for them , especially my Grandmother. I remember my aunt saying "If this is what God is about, and if he thinks this is okay, then I don't want anything to do with this." As a Christian, I take it upon myself to do apologetics as often as I can when it comes to these issues. I took it upon myself as a Christian to make an attempt to answer for the pain and disgrace those racist, so-called "Christians" sinfully, invoked upon my aunt so many years ago, by addressing the issue, repenting of it to her, listening to my aunt and allowing her to voice her anger and frustration that was as a result that injustice. For her, because she didn't know anything about the Bible or Jesus at the time, she saw it as being a Biblical issue as much as it was a racial issue. Since however I am not White, I could only, really help to heal the Biblical "misrepresentations" that occurred as a result of those racist "Christians"... So in regards to what Keller is saying, my question is this: What if I just said to myself "well, that's horrible, it's too bad that happened to my aunt, but hey, that wasn't me! I am good Christian and so I don't need to answer for what those terrible Christians did to her!"... and left it at that? Perhaps, I don't "have" to respond, but personally, I feel that if I am refusing to do as much as I can to right the wrongs of Christian-misrepresentation by helping people who have been hurt or deceived by false "Christians" or any other vice that Satan utilizes in our era, then I have failed in my ministry to others, in a big way. However, I take this question, one step further and ask "what if just ONE of those racist White "Christians" had realized their sin, and actually cared enough about the horrible way they had represented their race and their faith, and later came and apologized to my aunt, telling her that "this isn't who Jesus is" and made some attempt to help her heal and overcome that incident? To that I respond with saying that, thankfully, I think my aunt knew some friends who were white believers who may have been able help her through some of that... but again, what if those White believers had done exactly what Keller is describing in regards to how so many White people react about this issue?... that is to basically say, "not my fault"? For the record, Keller isn't saying it's "White People's Fault" I know many minorities who will say this, and I disagree that it's all White People's fault.... however, just know that to blatantly, outright deny the existence of centuries of systemic oppression that have been foundational in the construction of the plight of not just Black Americans, but EVERY minority who was affected by the great injustices that are were systemically, inflicted upon them during the forming of this country is only adding to the cycle of race issues that our entire country is facing as a result of very, real history. Instead of playing the blame game, I think Keller's main point is, as White Christians, your responsibility is not towards paying for the sins of your ancestors, but instead to actually give a crapp about what happened beyond just saying "yeah, that's too bad, now just get over it and leave me alone..." and to help people who are still historically, effected by those injustices perpetrated upon them by your ancestors to heal by acknowledging those injustices and the reality that they are still effecting minority groups in America, today. It's not taking the blame, it's not paying reparations, and it's not in any way removing the very difficult responsibility that minority groups have of overcoming these circumstances within their own cultures... What it IS is not being a scaredy cat or a coward and denying the existing, repercussions but instead and in this case, being a Christ Follower and caring for others by placing them before yourself and doing your part in any way to help fix the misrepresentation of Christianity that Satan has imposed upon so many through fake, false or deceived so-called "Christians". Over the years my aunt made attempts to try to read her Bible, even if out of some type of respect for my Grandmother, who still did attend Church after that incident. I did my best to communicate to my aunt the love of Jesus and to tell her that God is NOT for racism and that he shows "no favoritism" and that most churches are not that way, now. I was even able to get her comfortable enough with coming to visit my church at the time, but she never personally, set foot in a church after that incident.
I think there has been tremendous progress in the area of racism since the '50s. Also there are multiple ways to hate multiple people. I have experience extreme harassment and I am white
You don't say, but it sounds like the incident took place in the south in the 1950's. What you may not know is that the laws in most southern states made such integration illegal. Night clubs were often raided by police and the white and black people in them jailed for violating the laws against integration. That church may have been trying to avoid a similar problem. But the laws have been changed, thank God. Still, white people in Oregon were not guilty of the sin of racism against your family even if they knew about the problem in southern states.
It is every Christian's duty to defend the faith against misrepresentation, and I agree with your statement about too many shrugging off that responsibility. We need to make sure that the name of Christ isn't dragged through the mud by being equated to hypocritical so called "Christians". Yesterday I saw people washing protester's feet and praying for forgiveness. They said "we misrepresented God" and "we burned crosses" rather than pointing out that those were not real Christians at all, and denouncing it as anti Christian. This is further complicated by Christians who remain silent against misrepresentation of Christ's church, and do as you said as far as seeing it as "not their problem". We should all come together and fix society's issues through Christ Jesus, so many are lost and living in spiritual darkness. We all need salvation through our Lord Jesus, and the more that get saved, the better off our nation will be, not to mention the world. God bless you.
L P This is an invited speech not a sermon. Secondly, I think many Christians prefer to hear from pastors what make them feel comfortable rather than the truth. As a Christian, do you think we are exempt from all guilts and sins not responsible for problems in the society?
Very, very sad to see Tim Keller fall into Liberation Theology. Keller has been one of my very favorite pastors and thinkers. But this movement into this way of thinking is undermining his historical impact. I remember well the force of Liberation Theology is terrorizing Central America in the 1980s. Placing blame collectively can never result in resolution of multicultural tensions as it foments hostilities than can never be resolved and create the kind of hate we see in the Middle East today. Others on this thread have pointed out the biblical objections to the notion that one is guilty of the sins of ones father. Taken together it seems Keller has made not just a mistake but has added fuel to a fire that may burn for generations.
Thank you Dr. Keller for this incredible message and words of wisdom from God's Word. So very timely for us today. Thank you for opening my eyes to my role in the corporate racism that continues to this day. May God use this and other messages to awaken the Western White Church to action. We must combat the blight of systemic racism in our nation and world. Forgive me Lord for my complacency and apathetic attitude.
Michael Fujimoto Keller is twisting the scriptures he does use to try to prove his point of responsibility . Yet he avoids all of the scriptures where God says that He will not punish sons for their fathers’ sins , nor will He punish fathers for their son’s sins. All of those verses are ignored. We will all stand before God individually and give an account . I will not be called to give an account for your actions , only mine . I do not accept the judgement of guilt for “white privilege” or being racist. That in itself is racism. I will not worship at the alter of “social justice” , I am not part of the “woke” church and do not subscribe to that theology . I bow only to Jesus . Changed hearts are the only answer and only God can do that .
What would we do without the gospel, you ask. You do realize the social justice movement (as we know it in America today) is disproportionately non-Christian, right? In other words, those of us that don't believe the gospel are, on average, doing more of what Keller advocates here than those of us that do believe the gospel.
Patrick Cleburne you do realize that the “social justice “ narrative is another gospel , with its sin , and saviors , guilt and redemption . This isn’t God’s gospel
you are right, that is one of my major problems with this message. the other is his extremely weak use of scripture to support his idea of corporate evil (i really don't believe he is gleaning the truth in those passages). seems like he is twisting those passages to add up to a outcome he has already determined... eek. i am trying to find another reputable theologian who also supports this view corporate evil/racism and its backing in scripture but so far no luck
Individuals make-up CORPORATE or are we consciously trying to separate the two?!! One canNOT possibly understand nor should they give comment if they NEVER experienced the subject matter and this is where black and white folks opinion differ... experience!!! At times the truth is very difficult to swallow and at times people act as if the truth doesn't exist!
Waking the Dead I don't believe that he is justifying that sin, nor do I think he is painting it in a positive light. I think he is more so highlighting the fact that the "converter", so to speak, was unable to approach her with a heart willing to listen to how she got into her situation and once the situation was explained there was a moment of realization of the hopelessness she felt. Powerlessness. I have never experienced the fear of authority figures in the same manner my friends of color have. I also tend to reflect on Jesus' reactions to my own sin, especially sin that leads to consequences that hurt. He still hears me, he still loves me, he still heals the wounds that are more or less self inflicted, and he teaches me to trust him more and follow him to a better path of freedom. I think that's a great reflection of what people often need. Obviously, all led by the Spirit and based on scripture.
WOW, Waking the Dead. You missed the entire point of what he was teaching through that example... FIRST, Jesus defended that woman against her assailants who obeying the Hypocrisy imposed by the Teachers of the Law who in their wickedness were pretending to obey Biblical law but were in fact acting on their own self-justified SYSTEMS OF OPPRESSION of the people they were in power over, in an attempt to entrap Jesus in order to discredit him, which thankfully (because God knows the hearts of wicked men) fell flat on it's face! When she was no longer in danger, and Jesus had in fact, SAVED her from physical, and circumstantial, harm, FIRST he said that he DIDN'T CONDEMN HER, and LASTLY "Go and sin no more"! You ignored every single other detail that happened prior to your point which was as pharisaical as ever, as you basically are saying about her: "well, you sin and sin is bad and so you are bad and that's all, NO GRACE FOR YOU! ROT IN YOUR JUSTIFIABLE CONDEMNATION!... but not me, because I have never done THOSE types of things and your sin is worse then mine." We are ALL TALK.. because we aren't dealing with these experiences, we get to stand on a podium, point a judgmental finger and say statements like "End does not justify the means in Bible. Jesus did say go and sin no more..." because we haven't committed these particular sins and we seem to completely forget about God's universal grace, UNTIL we have done something that we need forgiveness for, and THEN we are all about mercy and forgiveness (for ourselves, because we actually deserve it, right?...), but only when it justifies us! You also are totally representing the Privileged, American "Christian's" perspective by the fact that you clearly have NO IDEA what it must be like to be the terrified, young girl in the example that he gives! To have the very people who are appointed by law to protect you be the very threat to you and your family's safety! WHO KNOWS what you would do in a terrifyingly desperate situation such as that! ... and so, since you know that you REALLY don't know how you would react (or maybe you honestly do...) you throw your hands up and say, with ZERO COMPASSION or even a hint of realization of Keller's point: "SO WHAT, end doesn't justify the means, sinner!" WOW... maybe some day, God will allow you to be in a situation as desperate as this, so that you feel the helplessness and hopelessness that this young woman experienced so that you can learn to look at the plight of your fellow humans with even a HINT of the grace and mercy that you have been blessed to lavish in whilst in your comforts and securities! THEN, we will see what kind of response you will have!
"It is not our business to become involved in #slavery. Those are #social issues. We have been called to #preach the #gospel. We must deliver the Word. We must save people's #souls. We must not get involved in the issues of liberating people from the chains of slavery. If they accept #Jesus #Christ as their Savior, by and by they will be free - over there." - Tom Skinner quoting "the [strangely #silent ] #evangelical, Bible-believing, #fundamental, #orthodox, #conservative church" (from keynote address at #InterVarsity #Christian Fellowship's 1970 Urbana Conference) 🛐✝
I believe mentioned it directly, both the fall of man, and the salvation of man, via Adam and Jesus are corporate. The other example he used was Akin. After the battle of Jerico the Israelites lost a battle and when the approached God Akin was exposed and his whole family stoned.
@@josephgering9833 Akin's whole family was not stoned. He had his parents, his wife (unknown where she was. Dead perhaps), his aunts, his uncles, and his cousins; all a part of the family that produced him. But only those who lived in the tent and were punished. The commentaries I have point out that God does not punish the innocent for the wicked, except for the one time of Christ. And that was one taking on the sins of many, not many taking on the sins of a few. The fall is not corporate sin nor judgement in the same way, but is a corporate covenant. You are a sinner on your own without Adam. Daniel was a young man at the time of the Babylonian captivity. He is likely praying because he was a sinner whose sins contributed to the fall of Israel, not an innocent who was guilty of and punished for the sins of others.
@@josephgering9833 yes. Corporate in the sense of Akins family, not the whole nation of Israel. Families are seen as units in the Bible, because they are in a sense a reflection of God Himself; three in one, Father, Mother (Spirit) and Son. So in that sense, I understand the corporate punishment/responsibility fell on Akin and his family - and as A Carpenter's Son already said, under the same tent.. The way it is used here though by Tim Keller, it seems like whole nations, races, for generations have to be judged for and punished for their heritage. It is unclear how and why this is so, and how a nation can be redeemed from that blight. With Akin, the judgement and punishment was quick and clear and just. If it becomes drawn out, murky, and ambiguous, it is rather tyrannical, unpredictable and therefore unjust - like a moody Lady Justice. If a nation is seen as a common union of individuals with common values and goals and interests, each with individual rights, duties and freedoms, commonly adjudicated and upheld ... then this does not make sense. If Tim Keller is saying i.e. being white is inherently sinful and must be repented and apologised for ... well that is an outright racist statement. If he is saying, people (free will individuals with individual choices and actions and responsibilities), no matter what color or creed or 'put-desrciptor-here' are sinful and need a Saviour? Amen!
Covenantally, Achan and his household were already devoted to destruction . Keller is confusing passages with covenant transgression . 25 The carved images of their gods you shall burn with fire. You shall not covet the silver or the gold that is on them or take it for yourselves, lest you be ensnared by it, for it is an abomination to the LORD your God. 26 And you shall not bring an abominable thing into your house and become devoted to destruction like it. You shall utterly detest and abhor it, for it is devoted to destruction. - Deuteronomy 7:25-26
God can do what he wants because he is God and is always just. If he punishes a whole family or a nation for the sins of one person, he is always just in what he does. It's different with people. We don't have God's wisdom and knowledge, so we are limited to judging only individuals for what they do. Since the rise of Christianity, Christians have always considered group punishment by other humans to be a grave evil. Christian individualism is one of Christianity's greatest gifts to mankind. It protects the life, liberty and property of the individual from arbitrary violation by others and the state. God can punish groups, but humans can only punish individuals.
God = Justiified Mass Murder? This is the kind of blindness that pushed me away from Christianity. Killing is killing. Why don't you worship Hitler the same way? Jews ignore the Old Testament anyways. Religion is a joke.
@@therealmrfishpaste Mass killing is not. That's equitable to genocide. Just because you claim to be omniscient or perfect does not give you the authority. Not having the intent to kill gives more leeway into your argument, however. Otherwise, you're hateful, sadistic, or have a political agenda. Even if someone was executed for a crime (killing, for instance), that's not justice. It's payback. Nobody walks away happy.
Thank you, excellent thoughts. I'm a white guy, my wife is native American/Spanish. What you presented can be called "Corporate Repentance." It was Romans 5, back in the late 90's, that changed my life forever. Although, dear sir, I wish you would have actually spoken some scripture. When we speak, nothing happens. When God's written word is spoken, whole worlds are created. Speak the word of God and LET it work in people. Christ's word is spirit and life. Thank you.
Did you hear him say the gospel takes white people and keeps them more or less down, and takes poor people and lifts them up? I did not know white translated to wealth or power. And I did not know that not being white makes you poor. What kind of bubble does Tim Keller live in?
@@acarpentersson8271 I did hear that and thought about commenting on it too. It's just like when Joe Biden says "Poor kids are just as bright and talented as white kids." SMH
I think a lot of the times when Systemic Racism is brought up it becomes a steep stumbling block for many conservative Christians who reject (and rightly so at times) some of the perils of identity politics. Tim Keller here is explaining how our sin in the world corrupts social structures. We praise God that there has been much progress in this area. However, there is more to be done. Particularly when we observe when political policies a lot of the time disproportionately affect black people. Though race and class in America and the western world are interlinked on many levels it take honest observation to acknowledge that. Its also helpful to see that as Tim Keller described although you may not be racist as we live in a sinful land, if we're unable to differentiate ourselves from the culture and not conform to the pattern of this world we implicitly participate in the sinful system. This goes for anything, but as Tim noted again, for Western countries this must be taken seriously especially considering the history of western nations. Thus Tim Keller calling and pleading with the Majority group to reconsider their subconscious notions is Biblical- not just a theory. I'd also say that as we've seen a significant proportion of people of colour are genuinely mourning about injustices against their people (again not a foreign concept in scripture) to utterly dismiss this by saying systemic racism doesn't exist is unhelpful to say the least. Within the culture literature its called Gas Lighting. Rules within a Majority culture tend to benefit the majority or the affluent. Please note I said the word 'Tend'. Even conservative thinkers agree with this notion. Lastly, just to say that systemic racism or systemic sin whatever you prefer exist doesn't necessarily mean that you align yourself with the political POV that pushes this. As followers of Jesus, our loyalties are to Jesus only. We can declare that systemic racism is wrong AND say that rioting is wrong also (As the Lord Avenges and judges ultimately). Ofc there can be unhelpful definitions- but surely Tim here describes a helpful and easy to follow one?
Fife Mustafa Very well said. I do see that the black community is grieving injustice. I am not denying that injustice exists or that they are not feeling pain. I will not sign a contract unless I can read through it first. I do not accept the premise that blacks are hunted down by cops. Personally, I do speak out against the horrors of planned parenthood. Why, because all life is cherished. I do speak about the plague of fatherlessness in the black community, why, because I have a high view of marriage and family. I will not agree to things that are or could be false narratives when facts and truth should be the basis of our actions. Referring to “blacks hunted down” last year some 7000 blacks were murdered most all by other blacks. Last year cops killed 9 unarmed blacks while cops killed 19 unarmed whites last year. I need more evidence of police targeting blacks, not with antidotal evidence but concrete numbers. Terms need defined, first of all systemic racism. What is the system and how does one prove another person’s feelings?
Jan Pearson you are wrong. Jesus addressed this directly. Read the parable of the Good Samaritan. It’s very straightforward. He makes it clear that everyone is our neighbor and we have a God-given responsibility to care for all, especially when they are mistreated. I hope you’ll change your mind on the matter my friend
I admired Tim but this one threw me. I listened to it like 5 times and cannot believe the analogies and false statements made. He says it like it's true. Really? The first one that threw me was Daniel. Look Daniel belonged to God's chosen. His relationship with both God and Israel was totally unique. Not your run of the mill jew. To draw the parallel between white Europeans, Americans and such to God and Daniel talking goes beyond insane. So I decided to do some digging on why Keller would do this. The long and short is he is a believer in critical race theory philosophy. I was shocked but it explains it.
I'm not surprised. I am so sick of "Christians" buying all of this identitarian, Marxist, and demonic ideology. I only ever read one book from Keller, but even though it was flagrant, it struck me as off and leaning left theologically. This stuff is just evil. It is deceptive to its core and born from the pit of Hell.
He's equating Daniel to white Christians. Daniel saw the sins of Israel, therefore he indicted himself as guilty by association. i.e. "This is my culture, therefore i'm accountable to my culture." The problem with Keller's logic is that OT Jews didn't think culturally, but rather covenantally. They were one because of their connection to YHWH, not just race (a modern construct). Keller uses this logic to say white believers are guilty of sin because your white ancestors displayed racist behavior, and that's your culture. He's unknowingly saying your identity is in white not Christ. This is my problem with white guilt. It's unbiblical. The hidden sin is not the connection to the culture but rather the embracing of the supremacist ideology and, perhaps, unknowingly living it out. That's the area where confession and repentance is needed. Not cultural connection by race but mindset connection by nature
Exekiel 18:17 He withholds his hand from mistreating the poor and takes no interest or profit from them. He keeps my laws and follows my decrees. He will not die for his father’s sin; he will surely live. Read the whole chapter. Exekiel 18 it is abundantly clear on this.
Why is everyone so quick to go to that verse in "Exekiel"? The point of that passage is that someone who does not repeat the sins of his father will not be punished for them. Ezekiel 18:19 says "Why does the son not share the guilt of his father?’ Since the son has done what is just and right and has been careful to keep all my decrees, he will surely live." It's about breaking the cycle, not "I shouldn't be punished for something someone else did." Read Nehemiah 9, where the people "confess their sins and the sins of their ancestors." The fact that racism exists isn't our fault, we didn't create it. But as God's people, as the ones through whom He has elected to work, we have a responsibility to confront evil to bring about restoration. It isn't a doctor's fault that a person who comes to him is sick, but it is his responsibility as a physician to do everything to restore his health. If he doesn't he's guilty of malpractice. If we claim to follow Jesus, then it is our responsibility to combat this sickness that pervades our society. If we don't, then we are guilty of helping perpetuate it and that is sin.
John Bishop confession and taking responsibility are two different things. I can confess others guilt with out taking the responsibility for the crime or sin.
@@philipbrister That is incorrect. Confession is an act of repentance, and repentance only works by admitting responsibility. That is exactly what the exiled Israelites were doing in Nehemiah 9. Confessing without taking any responsibility is a completely meaningless gesture that makes no effort to rectify or restore what has been lost as the result of sin.
John Bishop confession is the precursor to repentance but they are not one and the same. You can not repent for the thoughts and actions of others. You can confession that what others have done is wrong in the eyes of God.
And as I said, that is a meaningless gesture. If you are merely confessing another's guilt, that does absolutely nothing to fix what has been broken. What is the point of confessing another's guilt if you accept no responsibility to do anything to bring about restoration from the damage caused? If what you're saying is true, then Daniel's prayer of repentance in Daniel 9 means absolutely nothing whatsoever. Confession without repentance is apathy. "What was done was terrible; but I don't have to do anything about it."
The car dealership owner was such a bad example. 1 man saw people were being mistreated and changed the way things operate to be just. That's awesome, we should all do that.. But the problem and the solution were not corporate, they were individual.
That was not a balanced discussion and would lead one to some challenging conclusions. I understand God has dealt with "groups" (families, cities, countries), but it seems to me the primary dealings of Jesus were with individuals as individuals. And on Judgement Day, I think we will be dealt with as individuals (the entire concept of election is a very individual choosing -- not whole groups). Also, he seems to suggest it is ok for people to get their identity from what society tells them. The car dealer example is flawed unless he is saying capitalism is inherently evil - and if so, should state so. He seems to be suggesting equal treatment should produce equal outcomes. Their is no room for different outcomes (or maybe only very narrow differences). It seemed he was saying the car dealer gave better deals to better negotiators (which he indicated was more of a male / female thing than black / white thing, but i digress) -- so it is "wrong" for better negotiators doing better than worse negotiators (does not just apply to car purchases). It seemed the topic should be broadened to "discrimination" -- black/white, male/female, rich/poor, obese/thin, pretty/ugly, competent/dumb, industrious/lazy, etc -- because we "discriminate" among these groups all the time. And his definition of discrimination seems to be unequal outcomes. If equal outcomes is really the end game, we need to have a broader discussion. Could go on, but that was not a complete / balanced presentation of the issue.
The difference between Adam and Eve and some random white man who owned a black slave is this: a random slave owner is not my federal head.... Adam is! He is my Covenant head. And if you want to play this out rightly, see Romans 5:1-21... God only sees 2 men in all of history.. Adam or christ. If you are in Adam you are dead in sin by virtue of his failure to fulfill the covenant of works, thus you are condemned for Adams sin. “More much” (in the worlds of paul) you are alive IF, you are found to be in Christ. This is a caricature of “federal” theology. And many Westminster theologians would condemn this reductionism of historic theology regarding federal headship. A random white slave owner is condemned for his sin AND for Adams sin. Where is the text? Keller makes his point predicated on his personal experience before exposition of the text. Where is the text? This is not helpful.
I think that's an important point. But don't you think that whether our sin is attributed to Adam or to ancestors, we should still be moved to addressing corporate evils/injustice in light of the Gospel?
@@seppukuguru7706 absolutely! I just don’t think Critical race theory is adequate to do it. I believe on a biblical worldview system can answer the egregious evils in society.
Pastor Keller has a skill at speaking into the post-modern culture and that has its place, but for minds like mine, I really value a bit of structure like Abraham Kuyper's spheres of sovereignty - State (Romans 13), Church (Ephesians 4), Family (Ephesians 6) and Individual (Romans 10). This helps avoid "identity politics".
Commerce is not a good enough excuse for systemic evil. Quite rightly the Bible says, "For the love of money is the root of all kinds of evil. And some people, craving money, have wandered from the true faith and pierced themselves with many sorrows."
This man should be challenged. He loves the sound of his own voice and he will not accept any view or value but his own. He really talks down to the people he is supposed to educate.
@@sonnyankau9239 No, just twisted theology .. has nothing to do with me . Maybe you need to talk to God about it. It’s actually a new religion being put out there . NO THANKS ! I’ll stick with truth . But thanks for your racist comment .
Of course we all have different experiences. And yes neighborhoods tend to have their one eyed view on things. But. As with any race, one neighborhood or view does not describe the rest of the world. Most adults realize this.
Very thankful for this talk and hopeful that people will relinquish their biases and really hear the heart of the Lord on this. What's so hard about empathizing with those who are disenfranchised? What is so hard about mourning with those who mourn? What is so difficult about leveraging your privilege to help and advocate for people? So many of us get this whole Jesus follower thing so wrong. Very disheartening.
It's actually *really* easy, Mitch, because God isn't really real and you just hear whatever you want to hear, and take your own feelings and tell other people it's the word of god. It's not the word of God, god doesn't exist; it's just your useless ego.
The biggest problem all of us face, is dying in our sins and going to hell for eternity. How others treat you here on Earth is irrelevent compared to eternity. I guess this is the start of the great falling away the church is to experience prior to the rapture.
Systematic racism in the pulpits is real & the Lord hates it. Many are not welcomed & discouraged to attend due to judgmental attitudes & derogatory comments coming from so called followers of Christ. But the mission is still plentiful & the Lord is saying follow me & I make you fishers of men/people. The old testament laws were given by the Lord to live righteously, but they became prejudice and hateful toward non believers, and still continues in the protestant circles. The Lord knows and still says, "Follow me & I make you fishers of men. Trust Him and do everything He has commanded. " Follow me & I make you fishers of men." Don't worry about the false & greedy Sunday morning teachers....
Thank you Pastor Tim! You have proven to be consistent over the years. Thank you for using your gifts and vocation to do what is right at what may become some cost to yourself.
If the white Christian population can swallow this message it would be a start, but the reactions to this presentation informs us that racism is alive and the caring that should be coming from the lighter skinned demographic is what it is. . ...a part of the reality that they fail to acknowledge, because it is not happening to them.
If the first thought you have is that criticism is racism then you should look at yourself first. It reminds me of a black radio host David Webb being called out as having white privilege by another black because of a criticism he had of her comment. She didn’t know he was black.
the Bible does not promote a general corporate guilt. The Israelites swore that they and their children would serve God. There would be blessings if they did, and cursing's if they didn't. Even for Israel, Ezekiel makes it plain the sins of the father are separate from the sins of the son. For a so called Biblical scholar you are either ignorant or disingenuous. You cannot conflate God's chosen people to a secular society. But if you really believe in corporate guilt, then look to Africa, where their own race sold them into slavery.
This is so warped. If one must repent for having ancestors who lived in a culture and participated in that culture that was sinful, then Christ, a Palestinian Jew, living in times of oppression, while doing nothing to free anyone from that oppression, must repent. He can say he hates CRT all he wants, but he just hates the secular name. It's denial. He's warping original sin with personal sins. We are all guilty of original sin and our unfaithfulness, and that is impartial to ethnicity and culture. Personal sins are on the sinner, not of anyone else. Jeremiah 31 is flat out against this entire "sermon".
I agree with what pastor Tim has to say in terms of the different corporations you belong to; however, I want to be clear that “white” is not a group. It’s just a skin tone. What do I have to do with white people in Germany? Nothing. Now, if you’re Southern Baptist and the denomination does something terrible, well, that reflects on you and you should play a role in corporate repentance, but if the Methodist do something terrible you have nothing to repent for. You’re not in that group. It’s amazing to me that most of the racial controversy today is driven by the Democratic Party. Has the Democratic Party repented of their racist past? It was southern Democrats that owned slaves. It was northern Republicans that died to set black men free. What party was Lincoln? Republican. What party did the first black senators and representatives belong to? Republican. But somehow the Democrats have convinced the masses that the opposite is true. They are up to the same shameful acts as they were during slavery; they use black people for political power. They slaughter infants in the womb for the sake of convenience under the guise of a minorities right.
If you don't think "white" is a group, Is "black" a group? Do you think that black people have the same experience that you do? Are you denying the existence of race and therefore racism altogether? or only denying that white is a race?
Ryanne Caldwell I’m saying there is such think as racism, but I’m saying it’s a devilish construction we shouldn’t adhere too. There is no one “black experience”, everyone within communities have different experiences in life. One skin color does not equal one group. That is highly simplistic and is a failure to see God’s diversity. Nigerians are not the same peoples and Algerians or Tanzanians. They speak different languages with different customs and cultures, so it is with many Africans, black Americans, and Caribbean Americans who have black skin. If we think of one experience when we see skin color, we are making assumptions without getting to know people. If we assume all blacks are oppressed, that’s a problem... if we think all white people are racist by virtue of seeing their skin and assuming their experience... that is also, racism.
Ryanne Caldwell, ty for the response. When I say "group" I'm talking about people with shared values. Not all people with black skin believe the same things. It would actually be racist to say that all black people or all white people have the same experiances. Racism is definitely real, and if you find yourself attributing a value or ideology to all people of a particular skin color you have certainly committed racism. So, even using a term like "the black experience" makes me hesitant. It would seem to say that all black people have the same experience, and that cannot be true.
I think that Keller is correct on the corporate/individual issue, we should recognize that we are part of ethnic groups or nations as they are called in the Bible and we have responsibilities to our nation as well as to other nations who live amongst us. Most of the systemic racism these days in the USA is aimed at whites more than any other group. Universities and government intentionally discrminate against whites to favor other groups, especially white males. How long should whites intentionally disfavor their own children, so that other groups' children can take their places in society. That is not justice.
Keller's exegesis of the story of Achon is handwaving with no substance. It doesn't stand up to basic scrutiny of the text or application of his own logic. Let's assume Keller is right and that a person's sin is a product of their family/community. Keller argues that if you are evil or have done something evil, your parents and community are partially culpable because they "produced you directly or failed to keep you from becoming that". But who dies in Joshua 7/who is held responsible? Was it anyone in the community? Was it his parents? No. "And Joshua and all Israel with him took Achon the son of Zerah, and the silver and the cloak and the bar of gold , and his sons and daughters and his oxen and donkeys and sheep and his tent and all that he had." What happened does not stand the test of his own logic. The story of Achon is the story of how your sin affects others. It is a warning of the devastation of sin can bring. Achon's sin led to the loss of a battle and lives of other Israelites. Achon's sin led to the loss of his life and the life of his family. Your sin can do the same. It is a lesson we desperately need to learn today.
7:42 I disagree with Tim's statement: The Apostle Paul implying "you are responsible and you are condemned for what your ancestors Adam and Eve did."... I want to make plain that there are many in this world that detest our faith because of this interpretation, which would be ok if it were truth, there are many that detest even Jesus Christ. But, everyone seems to skip the last words in Romans 5:12 12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men[e] because all sinned. Because all sinned. Death spread because all sinned. Yes sin came in through Adam, but it was because all sinned that all died. This seems to say it is not the sin of Adam that condemns me, but the sin that I sinned that condemned me. - Jesus was a part of the human race and yet was not condemned, because he had no sin
It's true that we are condemned by our own sin, but while Adam had the choice to sin or not to sin, his choice determined that we would not have that same option. We are unable to not sin because of Adam, so we are all born sinning and condemned.
@@treyb2608 I agree with what you said Trey, but that’s not what Tim said. Go back and listen from 7 min. Tim is saying we are “responsible and you are condemned for something you didn’t individually do”..that’s not true. It may seem like splitting hairs but many find reason to validly resist the faith because of that theology :/
Why not detest your christ? You yourselves are part of a racist system and you refuse to look at your own racism, and you are the ones who claim that you are the body of christ. And when we say that we are against racism, you say that anti-racism is code for anti-white. What's there to love about Jesus in that? Jesus is detestable and despicable, and evil. We didn't make him that way, that's just how he is.
Such an abuse of Joshua 7 here. Keller strips it completely of the power of God in search of some temporal moral imperative. At the center of Achan’s sin was a distain for the salvation and provision of God. The “plunder” as Keller calls it essentially represents the tree of the knowledge of good and evil of Genesis. Achan’s sin and punishment mirrors Adam and Eves; covetous unbelief, idolatry and death to God. In divesting Joshua 7 of it’s spiritual significance (that is as it relates to God) and putting a temporal moral significance at the heart of Joshua 7, Keller commits the exact sin of Achan, “plundering” the glory that belongs to God in His provision of eternal salvation and justice - putting in its place the idol of racial reconciliation. This amounts to the extra biblical moralizing (traditions of men) that ultimately blinded National Israel to who God was and why they ultimately rejected His Christ. This is another gospel.
Postiez It’ll make more sense just read Joshua 7, Daniel 9 and Romans 5. Remember we didn’t achieve salvation. The gospel has a way of helping us think corporately not just individually.
The issue is not corporate responsibility (although there are some huge differences between Adam and the ancestor of some white guy). The issue is the specifics--what we are being asked to believe and what we are being asked to do. We are being asked to believe a story about systems of oppression that is a lie. We are being asked to accept and help usher in a conception of justice that is about equality. Here's another way of putting it: The Bible says, "learn to do good; seek justice." Yes, what are those things in our context? Because I think what people like Tim Keller are telling us they are is wrong.
@@rebeccanamposya8908 Sincerely, Rebecca, can you be more specific? I'm being honest, I have tried to see things from their perspectives, but the more I think about it, the more unconvinced I am. Please, help me understand. We can pick one thing: Dr. Keller was saying that inequalities are injustices (he said, "if the result is unjust, it is unjust.") How is that a coherent or biblical view of justice?
@@joelebert9767 Thank you for your response. I can not recall what was on my mind then. As a woman of colour this issue has perplexed me since only people of colour continue to be downtrodden to date, despite not having chosen the colour of their skin. Unfortunately, I am just a simpleton that can not coherently supply the biblical view of justice. You need not be convinced... judgement day is coming soon, we will all find out then,. Be blessed.
Sorry but no. “I won’t be held accountable for the hell of the past, I don’t owe a penny or dime, to amend for there crimes. Don’t you see, you’re illsuioned and apologizing for events you had no part in, it’s a mass delusion.” You, Are You, by BackWordz. I urge y’all to listen
Social Justice is my first thought, which is wrong and this is teaching from the old testament. When Jesus came he gave us all new rules and only those are how we are to live. Totally disagree with this.
So what if you are White and your family never had slaves, wasn't involved with segregation, If I my family wasn't part of that culture do I still have to apologize for a culture that was never attached to me although I am white? Is the color of your skin your culture? I am directly related to Abraham Lincoln do I need to apologize? sounds like white guilt. and with car sales how do you know who gets a deal or not by race and gender unless you keep a record of it? This doesn't sound racist it sounds like parents need to raise their children to negotiate better. I do business with tons of people but I pay zero attention to what color or gender they are when we discuss price, This is basically saying force yourself to apologize for no reason force give people affirmative action. In life we are equal and the more we give special hand outs the worse off the people are who get the handouts.
I can't wait the day that racism ends. It hurts me so very much so very very much. It's so divided between whites and minorities. Me as a black male burns so passionately to see TRUE UNITY especially in the body but the world. I even made an effort to make that my dream for Heaven. Amen Jesus.
@@bellapreny3175 Unfortunately, in my opinion, CNN may well address it before it ever gets on CBN and when CBN does, it will all go back to individualism and God working through communities will not be discussed at all, which makes me very sad. It's all about me me me and my personal relationship with Jesus in conservative evangelical Christianity, like the mainstream of American society :-( Well, not totally, but the great majority of it.
As an Asian living in America, I find the self-blame/shifting responsibility culture that is prevalent in the country today a little uncomfortable. Black people are just as racist as white people and asians are no better. Putting the onus on primarily white people for the troubles of society is rather unfair and I don't feel it helps with the racial divide in the country, as if other minority ethnicity don't have just as important part to play to alleviate inequality. Racism still exists of course, and because white people are the majority in society, you'll see more instances where white people engage in racist activities. This does not mean all white people are racist though and should be treated as what it is, individual instances of racism. There must be less distinction on collectivism and more emphasis on our individual identity and I hope at the very least, my fellow brothers and sisters in Christ can put their identity as followers of Christ above their skin color and become the leading example for the rest of society in race relations.
From what I can gather, Keller is fairly against individualism and thats why you see him push towards corporate guilt/sin and seeking to address society problems in terms of demographic groups. I am not sure why and to me it seems so far from the main message of the bible. Father and son are not guilty of each others sins nor are we guilty of anyone else's but Keller tries to paint a much different picture. That if you are part of society in any way and there is some demographic not as well off as they should be, then you are partially responsible. It muddies the line between good and evil if we are guilty of everything.
touchoflight12 unfortunately racism for blacks result in death when unarmed by cops and they are found not guilty, poor school systems, unfair laws that aim at giving black ppl longer sentences and other evils out of our control. I wish it was that simple but in this country it’s not. Everyone experiences racism but not everyone deals with the level of mistrustment that black do. I would recommend you watch the movie 13, research stuff like redlining and black Wall Street to get a better understanding.
@@Josh.1234 He is breaking down the reality of systemic racism which is just a more sophisticated way to be racist for those that are unaware it exist, which usually are the ppl that it isn't against. If you can believe poor people have been disenfranchised, you can believe it is happening to a people group. People are sinful and can construct ways to be sinful that aren't obvious. They do it through laws and practices. Individual people can create systems, procedures, laws that are racist. There were sinful people that made up the government of the day against Jesus, they conspired against him. It's possible.
@@zakiasimpson8928 There is currently no governmental systemic racism (there was and thats gone and now there is actually racism in the other direction with affirmative action). Just because a policy seemingly hurts a demographic, doesn't mean its racist or even wrong (imprisoning drug users maintains civil society, we can't help certain groups won't abide by the law). Justice and a fair society is based on long standing judeo christian morality that up until the 60s was widely agreed on. Now relativism and identity politics rule the day. Keller makes the case numerous times in his different speeches that even if you aren't racist, being part of a demographic like white men in the south makes you guilty.. this is antithetical to the Bible. Each man is guilty of his own sins. This is textbook identity politics, I am guilty for my inter-sectional group. Look to Thomas Sowell or Voddie Baucham for rational views on the situation. When society and in particular black society is ready to take a hard look at their familial, moral and violence problems, then we might actually be in a place to reconcile. But as it stands today, black or white Christians should not embrace the 70% born out of wedlock rates or the disproportionate abortions in this community (and no there is no reason to abort your child). These are destroying the next generation of black children who deserve better
I am from another country, I experienced discrimination from white people and also black people, but as a Christian never took it personal, I prayed and ask God to forgive them, to open there hearts to know Christ and experience what True love is, true LOVE ❤️ of Christ has no colors, it makes no exceptions of person. I am so great full to God for giving me this tremendous privilege and opportunity to become a citizen of this great nation that I love very much.❤️❤️
God Bless you all
Amen. The Lord knows & sees everything, don't worry & serve Him anyway.
Amen!
Systematic racism results in things like death, poor school systems, overly condemned to prison so yeah people are of course praying however action and boldness of speaking up is needed to, changing of policies, etc. Jesus spoke up against injustice and healed as well. He prayed and was bold with action. We are to be like him. It is not sinful to speak against injustice and try to change it. Jesus did!
Zakia Simpson absolutely agree. Have been trying to get my family members to understand this for 30 years. It is exhausting. They do not understand.
@@zakiasimpson8928 please explain in what way a "poor school system" is evidence of systemic racism. As far as "overly condemned to prison" please give examples. Vague generalities does not a point prove.
I think that we should move away from the idea that "THEY should fix THEIR community and start saying that WE should fix ALL OUR communities"
I prefer “I am a sinful human saved by God’s grace, through His son Jesus Christ.”
@@philipbrister Sure, and I think my idea can follow. We are called to heal the sick and look after the widow and the orphan.
The Image Bear - first things first.
@@theimagebear-9942 You took that verse out of context.
Ezekiel 18:20
The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.
People do bear the responsibility for the choices they make, but at the same time, the reason for their choices is largely the result of those they are in close community with, their friends and family. The child abuser who themselves was abused as a child bears the responsibility for their own sin even though they were the product of child abuse. It can be difficult to break a cycle of sin in a family.
I'm not saying that traits don't trickle down sometimes. Tim Keller implied around the 8 minute mark that all white people are guilty for something their grandparents might have done. I'm a light skinned mutt. I have German and Jewish in me. I have Native American and European in me. Shall I hate myself for the iniquities my ancestors might have done to my ancestors? Of course not. The idea that we never move past the sins of past generations is insane.
spookylinks He didn't imply that at all. You misunderstood him.
@@michaelkelleypoetry No that is exactly what Tim Keller is saying here and in numerous other instances. Being personally guilty for the sins of your demographic or "group".
Great verse spooky, in two sentences the Bible completely disproves one of Tim Keller's big theological claims.
The bible does not say I am being held accountable for my ancestors sins, but for my own. He is distorting the gospel to fit his narrative. We should stand up for what is right and just, as we are commanded to do, but it is not out of corporate guilt, but because God first loved us, so we can love others.
Please read Numbers 14:18 and Exodus 20:5
Crow T Robot From The Satellite Of Love he never said the Bible holds us accountable for our ancestors sins. He did remind us however of how sin got here; through our ancestors. We, the whole human race, share in the sin of our ancestors. We, then, corporately share in sin. Simple.
wrong.
So if Jesus came to show us how a righteous man that love God should live and he died for all of our sin. I think hes basically saying we r all connected and until we teach our kid the our world will never change. I also think hes saying staop turning a blind eye to thing. Teach the true history and knowledge that fact that for generations how hate was thought and still exist.
It’s called ethnomasochism
It is so true I'm still African American even though I'm a child of God. I see the systemic racism however I have learned to allow God to help me rise above it by remembering that He is in-control and to do all for Gods glory and only to build up His kingdom which consist of all cultures. I pray that the Lord's church can seek to look different from the culture so those who seek freedom in Christ can know they can find safety in the body.
What systems do you see that are racist?
sigh*... Joel Underhill, I hope that's an honest question, and not patronizing, in any way.
Drinner D It is an honest question.
@@joelunderhill126 all of them
What an ignorant white fool . I'm so tired of you devil's pretending to not know the evil you are.
I disagree with the interpretation of Daniel 9. I don't think he was asking for forgiveness for his ancestors. He was simply saying that the Israelite fathers were shamed by their sin. It also seemed that the children had yet to repent of the disobedience. I don't see anywhere in Scripture where we incur guilt from our fathers. Only true guilt of sin requires confessions, repentance, forgiveness, then restoration. The racist sins of our grandparents have been repetitive and legal changes were made.
I am saying this at the outset, before I have listened to this, and then If I have heard anything to change my mind I will recant. Life is hard. I have been treated poorly by people, cops, businesses, everyone. I have been stolen from and swindled, and the worst of the offenders have been white Christians, and I am a white Christian. If I was black and I experienced these things, I might believe it was racism. But its hard to accept that racism is at the heart of all wrongs against black people when I struggle against evils comited against me, by whites, and I'm white.
So did you listen to the whole thing after posting that?
White people can be just as poor, just as oppressed, and struggle just as hard as any other race. I think the difference is that you likely have never faced this type of adversity as a direct result of your skin color. I don't think I've heard anyone say that every black person has a harder life than every white person. That simply isn't true. But if white people struggle and face adversity as we all do, it is almost never a direct result of their being white. I don't think we could generalize the same way about black people historically speaking.. and that is the problem.
@@galinswigart
Historically speaking. No one argues that slavery, and Jim Crow were not a problems that needed to be fixed. It has been. Once a war is over, and there is victory, it is important to declare victory and end the war. If you keep waging war after victory then you will only create more enemies. The fact that all races have those who span the spectrum from rich to poverty is a sign of that victory. There is a term called warmongering.
Do you think that no white person has ever been denied a job, denied an education, or treated poorly because of the color of their skin? If you do, then you have not paid attention lately. MLK said the dream was for a person to be judged by the content of their own character, not the color of their skin. This appears to have been true, finally, but now we are just recreating racism in the name of fighting racism. That doesn't sound like the dream MLK spoke of.
Still a factor. For some folks, a very real factor. Just because YOU "can't imagine"... i have no words - anyways you seem to be genuinely trying, make some friends outside of your norm, like, actually go to their church for a few weeks, make friends, let your kids play together, invite them over for dinner, have picnics together... eventually you'll see.
@Patrick Kazan
I came to listen and heard what should not be taught. I guess you came as a blind man to be led astray
That connection with Daniel is amazing, thanks for the video. There are sometimes when God looks at the system like, "If one part body suffers, every part suffers with it (1 Corinthians 12:25-27)
Accountability is key! God is love. Love the LORD your God with all your heart mind and strength. And love you neighbor as yourself. If we as humans can do these two things through Holy Spirit we will please Him and help one another.
This comments section makes me want to cry, there are so many people missing the point. He is abdicating for humility and compassion, but people are so concerned about being considered racist that they miss the hurt of the people around us and our opportunities to lift them up. Christ did not defend himself on the cross he took all the sin on him. Are we not to be like Christ? Why are we not willing to be a part of the solution of systemic racism? Why do we think we have the right to do nothing because "I'm not racist". That's just selfish. We've been given the opportunity to do better. Let's not squander that!
Amen! Thank you ... Philippians 2:1-8
Specify for me what is the systemic racism now? ua-cam.com/video/phPXTWJhnYM/v-deo.html
This will end badly. I am not racist nor responsible for racist sins of others. If we assign guilt to everyone for the sin of ignorance of the the unconverted some, then we have just applied racism in that idea. I am a bad sinner, but I won't take blame for the sin I didn't commit. Beware of cultural Marxism. Antithetical to a Christian worldview.
Imagine taking that principle and using it to condemn other groups. It is a hopeless idea.
@@Jamie-Russell-CME I think the point is being missed here. Have you ever had something bad happen to you or felt horrible about something and people either told you it was just in your head or to just get over it? That's what we do to others when we ignore the racial injustice they suffer. The point is compassion not guilt. When we make this about guilt we are taking the focus away from the ones who are suffering in order to make sure our name is cleared. A good thing for us to do is to listen to those who have experienced racial injustice and try to understand and support them. The Christian worldview is to love others as Christ has loved us. No exceptions.
I agree with you am I still a racist?
I love this Pastor but I hope he knows these things:
-At the height of slavery in America, only 2% of the population owned slaves (including free blacks and Native Americans)
-The vast majority of white people in this this country are immigrants or the descendants of immigrants who came to America post-emancipation
-Deuteronomy 24:16
Parents are not to be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their parents; each will die for their own sin.
P.s. if it matters to anyone, I am a "person of color" who hates that term and can't stand seeing my white brothers and sisters be judged for the color of their skin. This must stop.
The 2% figure is completely off. See www.snopes.com/news/2019/08/07/percent-of-whites-owned-slaves/ and www.politifact.com/factchecks/2017/aug/24/viral-image/viral-post-gets-it-wrong-extent-slavery-1860/
@@brynnalynea Thanks. I'm aware of that data. I know that the 2% figure refers to slave masters and not their entire families, and when we take entire families into account (from the snopes article you shared):
"Using census numbers for the percentage of families who held slaves, the nationwide calculation for the percentage of “families owning slaves,” is 7.4%, Rothman told us."
So I wouldn't say the 2% figure is "completely off". The point is that only a small minority of whites owned slaves. The point stands.
I appreciate your feedback and will use the 7.4% figure moving forward. It is less misleading.
That's not correct, that 2% you meantioned, the majority of the south and many of the northeastern and the native white Indians owned slaves.
@@nonenothing6094 thanks for your response. Do you have a source for that? Concerning "many" and "majority"? Also please see my other response in this comment thread.
Regarding Tim Keller's message, he has been a great pastor and worker for the Kingdom, but this sermon shows his lack of skills as a theologian. For example, if salvation through Christ was corporate in the same way that guilt through Adam is, then no one would have to believe. I think Keller makes a good argument in his message for universalism, which I no he disagrees with. Here's why. When I am born into the human race, I am a sinner because Adam and Eve changed human nature. I am born a slave to sin. I have no choice in the matter and don't have to believe anything. But to become redeemed from that slavery, I have to do something. My parents can't do it for me, and my society can't do it. I have to believe in Christ as God and Savior to be redeemed. It's very individualistic.
Christian individualism was one of Christianity's greatest gifts to mankind. It did not do away with the role of our parents and society in helping us toward God, but it prevents society from punishing individuals for the crimes of others.
As for systemic guilt, Keller made it clear that he is looking at outcomes and not processes as evidence for systemic guilt. But that is his socialism coming out. Socialists only care about outcomes and processes mean nothing. So if inequality exists, then socialists blame the system. But socialists are wrong and Christianity has always looked at processes as the means to justice, not outcomes. Christianity has always said if the process is just, then the system is just regardless of the outcomes.
Keller reads only those people who are devout socialists and follow critical race theory. If he would read other people, sane people, he would see a completely different reality. Not all black people see the system as racist or at fault. It's dishonest to claim there is a "black" or "white" view of anything. They are a minority among blacks, but a significant one who do not blame the system or racism for the situation of blacks in America. Among them are Justice Clarence Thomas and black economists Drs. Thomas Sowell and Walter Williams.
Whether or not the problem with blacks is system or individualist is a question of reality. Which side describes reality accurately? Justice Thomas and Drs. Sowell and Williams provide much better evidence that the problem with poor black people is not the system but poor individual choices.
And it's a question of what constitutes justice, the outcomes or the process? Historic Christianity has always said justice is in the process. The idea that justice is the outcomes is the child of atheist socialists who insist that people are born good and turn bad only because of oppression. Christianity on the other hand has always insisted that people are born with a tendency toward sin and only God can change that.
I think Keller is working off the theological view that one's faith to believe the gospel comes from God and is not our own doing. That would not make it an individualistic doing.
Good thoughts sir, respect.
This is one of the most well thought out and written comments I've seen on this video. I've listed to Walter Williams and Thomas Sowell a lot, but the idea that historic Christianity determines the system is just because the process is just regardless of the outcome really clarifies a lot for me. Do you have any additional resources that go into more details about that?
@@wptx2827 Thanks! I can't point to one book. I think the best think to do is get a good concordance and look at all of the verses in the Bible on justice. For example, Leviticus 19:15 says "'Do not pervert justice; do not show partiality to the poor or favoritism to the great, but judge your neighbor fairly." Many of the complaints about justice in the Bible are about the princes (that is, the government) perverting justide by bribing judges. Also, you might like Larry Seidentop's book "Inventing the Individual" in which he shows how the Church implemented Biblical principles over 1500 years, especially equality before the law. And John MacArthur has some good messages: www.gty.org/library/blog/B180907/the-injustice-of-social-justice
@@sunchoi2044 He claims to be a Calvinist, but he makes a lot of statements that contradict his Calvinism. Calvinism is neither corporate nor individual, since God does it all.
I appreciate much of the comments that help discern the flaw in this talk. A famous preacher could be famous for the wrong reasons and in this confusing time Christians must discern with sound understanding of Scriptures, economics, and social issues.
I agree with previous comments in the discussion of federal sin from Adam and grace from Jesus Christ. Both cases show individual participation - whether the orientation to sin or the confession of need for salvation grace. Individualism means individual responsibility, which is exactly what the socialists oppose - I am poor and it must be somebody else' fault - which seems to be the view of this preacher. As for the Achan case, his sin did cause Israel to lose the battle of Ai, but when he was removed God brought Israel to victory. As tp why his the whole family was punished - how could we tell if Achan's sons and daughters were innocent? The only certainty is that God is just in His judgment.
The example of car purchase assumes a racist bias in car buying. So what should be the solution? Affirmative action for car pricing? That certain race and sex would get a discount automatically? Does that make it fair? If we go down this road, then there should be one price for all, which is socialism. There might be many reasons that certain group tends to pay higher prices - such as that they are not flexible with their requirements or they do not like to waste time in bargaining. I am Asian and I could say that Asians generally pay much less than other groups because of our purchasing habits and price consciousness - we are willing to wait for sales and compromise on requirements. So should we Asians pay more now because it is unfair? This preacher has NO idea about how economics works - people pay what they are willing to pay and they have choices. To assume that a group is being ripped off just because they don't bargain is racist and sexist, as if to say they are too ignorant and need the help of this kind Christian white man. In this information-rich society it is easy to get advice about how to get a good deal. It is arrogant to assume that consumers of certain race and sex are too dumb or lazy and the industry is systematically racist. They are free to choose how to buy or sell without some race police to assign guilt.
I strongly recommend books and interview with Dr. Thomas Sowell, Sr. Walter Williams, and Larry Elders. They have looked into the data and the policies before and after the civil rights movement, and their conclusions are that minimum wage, affirmative action, and lacking school choice are the policies that cause idle youths, broken families without fathers, and poor education that cause poverty and high crime rate. Black on black crime is a very serious problem. Do we care enough for these lives that we be honest to state the problem so that we could solve it? Or do we want to blame systematic racism in policing when the police is precisely what the poor blacks need for protection? Is virtue signaling more important than helping the needy? We all have to answer God before the Great White Throne.
As for discrimination, Dr. Sowell's categorization is very helpful (check his interview with Dave Rubin). There are three levels of discrimination/discernment with different degrees of knowledge - individuals you know personally, groups you have encountered, and superficial impression for a whole race. Discernment about individuals and groups based on some information is crucial for wise decisions but racism is not justifiable because we cannot judge a person by the skin color. Recently because of Covid-19, I am sensitive to how others may perceive me as a Chinese. I have determined not to take offense if people distance from me. I should not expect the strangers around me to know that I did not travel to China recently and I do not accuse them of racism if they are fearful of Covid-19. As a Christian I am called to love even the enemy, am I not to love a stranger who is not even an enemy? When I don't take offense, racist thoughts cannot control me.
This nation has worked hard not to discriminate based on race, and has done a better job than any nation on earth. To risk dividing the nation with a civil war that sacrificed 600K people. No nation on this earth has ever done that. I believe God has accepted the genuine repentance and has blessed America because of that. It take a longer time to change attitudes, but I can attest as a Chinese that there is no systematic racism in America now. I lived in Montgomery Alabama in the mid-80's and black, white and me the odd ball yellow worked very well together and had great fun. I lived in Dallas and again no systematic racism. Groups that are discriminated in their own land thrive here. The prominent example is the Jews. The more recent example is the Vietnamese refugees. When these "boat people" first arrived, there were some adjustment, but now that group has totally integrated into the society and become very responsible and respectable people. The Indians are thriving here too. We are all grateful. White guilt is a pure lie from Satan the accuser.
I notice that around the coastal regions, people tend to think that Americans in the south and the middle of the country are mostly republicans and are racists. That is true with how the Chinese in San Francisco and my Christian friends perceive. But the sad irony is that they have never lived outside the Bay Area. One Christian lady used a brief encounter in the 1960's to maintain this racist impression. I think all Christians should ask themselves whether they themselves are the racists against fellow Americans outside their own area. I have been welcomed by the black and the white everywhere so my testimony is that Americans are not racists.
I urge everyone to study Revelation. Chapter 18 prophesies the collapse of globalization, then the anti-Christ will appear. I think the Covid-19 situation reveals that our society is looking more and more toward governmental control rather than taking the effort to discern the reality and to act responsibly. The technology is mature for centralized control. Are we training the next generation to think critically so not to be deceived by Satan's lies and threatened to submit? Are we able to discern and refuse the mark of the beast when it is imposed? The lawlessness and the direct affront to the laws of God's creation (nuclear family, sexuality, etc.) show that the restrainer has been lifted. The Gospel has probably reached the end of the earth.
I think the Lord's message to the church in Laodicea is fitting for American churches:
Rev 3:18 I counsel you to buy from me gold refined by fire, so that you may be rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself and the shame of your nakedness may not be seen, and salve to anoint your eyes, so that you may see. 19 Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline, so be zealous and repent.
As for coming out of the adulterous and immoral culture (Babylon), Rev 18:4 calls us:
4 Then I heard another voice from heaven saying,
“Come out of her, my people,
lest you take part in her sins,
lest you share in her plagues;
I don't know if Rev Keller would read this, but I pray that the fear of God would lead him to repent and stop using the Bible to support his bias that is greatly tainted by the culture of immorality and socialism. I do wonder why all the big cities are the ones that oppress the poor the most, turning a blind eye to crime, poor education, and abortion. The recent discrimination against worship gathering blatantly dishonors God yet the churches are silent. What are these mega church pastors doing? I think they are leading the churches to be candy shops, not salt and light. Sugar causes obesity and diabetes, adding infection to the society.
There are multiple problems with the principle in this video. One obvious problem is, if we are collectively responsible for all sin on a community, then it would be impossible for Jesus to be a spotless lamb of God. He lived among sinners in a sinful community. By the standards Dr Keller lay out in this video, Jesus would be a sinner. Ezekiel 18 removes humanity from rendering judgment of corporate evil, undermining his thesis. God and God alone can judge corporate guilt.
I would also add that the solution to corporate evil begins with the assembly of the Church and ends with Christ leveling the systems of man and implementing his perfect system of justice at His coming. Applying Marxist-inspired Critical Theory will not solve the problem of systemic evil.
Also, all of the proof-texts for corporate guilt are in the Old Testament. In Christ we are crucified to the world. While we are charged by the law of love to act out good citizenship as salt in the world, we do not have a burden to engage in political action to assuage guilt - guilt that was taken away by the Cross.
He started off by saying that he is speaking on corporate responsibility or systemic evil... That is a part of discussing racism not the whole.
Dallas C Yes, amen
Dallas C Yes
Joshua Mwaura the whole world is evil , why would any Christian believe that he can fix this so called “ systemic evil” or be responsible for it ? Mans heart is evil and desperately wicked, who can know it ? How would we fix it ? What is right, who does right ? Only God
Those of us who are white, and started with nothing, cannot be personally blamed for the sins of our ancestors. Black from Africa were sold to Whites from America by their Black countrymen. Is this a guilt that should be carried by all Black people? No - we are all responsible to behave justly in our generation and with our own personal choices. This concept of group identity and group guilt is going to cause huge problems. If it is also mixed with the ignoring of Black guilt and bad choices, along with government policies that have harmed Black families, then NOTHING will be solved.
He is absolutely correct about God holding us accountable for what our ancestors did. It was prophesied that the true isrealites would go into slavery on ships because of what our forefathers did. Deutoronomy 28:68. He also said he who ledth into captivity will go into captivity. So white people will become our slaves when Yahweyshi returns. It's in tge Bible.
When in doubt, put everything in God’s hands....... He will straighten it out!!!
Who created separation, way, weapons, image that should be met to their standards, judgement etc? Enough said
I neither wish to affirm not negate what Tim Keller has to say here. However, I will say that his opinions mean no more and no less than anyone else's and we just beware of falling down the celebrity pastor rabbit hole.
im Keller is currently one of the preachers I deeply respect in the U.S. I see him as a light for the age. However, I differ from him on this topic. First, I am black, but a black whose identity lies not in my racial identity but in Christ. I will here outline my differences for the sake of the Lord's body.
1. The idea of corporate guilt is just not a scriptural truth. It is even anti-Christian for If this were true, then even Jesus would need repentance. He wouldn't be a lamb without blemish because the family he was born into and the race he identified with also has an evil past.
2. The sermon only makes sense because it is a White Man's perspective. While that is ok as a sermon for the White, it would be dangerous for a Black Christian to take this perspective. Sadly, the White is less likely to accept this sermon and the Black is more likely to take it by heart.
3. I will further explain point 2 using his own illustration. There are two ways to resolve the problem of women who can't negotiate a car deal. The 'Left-Leaning mind' would focus on the sellers and create a market that gives special consideration to the women, which, however, could come as unfair to the other buyers. But the 'Right-Leaning mind' would focus on the Women rather than the Seller. Rather than tilt the market to the advantage of one group, the 'Right' would argue for women to be provided more market information and offered more training on negotiation to achieve equality. One focus on changing the entire system and tilting it to favor a particular group, but the other focus on that 'group' and equiping them to compete better in the system. It is simple, A good teacher won't change the standard of an exam to accommodate a failing student, he would focus on the student instead. While the former appeals to the Christian with a desire to help, it is however not true Justice and not the gospel. Tim Keller's message was left-leaning.
4. Why is it dangerous for blacks to take this message by heart. Because it creates an entitlement. I start to feel that I am entitled to been loved or given some preference by White or the system. Christ never wanted us to feel entitled to someone's Love. He wants us to give Love. Any gospel that makes you feel entitled to receiving Love is wrong, the true gospel makes you feel responsible to give Love. It is my responsibility to Love the White, and I am not entitled to his Love. Although with an inaccurate analysis of what entails 'injustice, this sermon shows the White a 'Love-responsibility'. But it, however, ties the black man to a 'Love-entitlement'. It is not 'gospel' to a black man. I wish Tim Keller delved a little further, to analyze a 'black man's perspective' in which he would have touched this entitlement. The black must let go the past to seek the White as well. Like a buyer focusing on self-development rather than changing the standards, and like a student focusing on improving his score to pass rather than changing the pass-mark, he must see his own responsibility to uplift himself and his fellow blacks. It doesn't matter what our history may be. Once a black man is in Christ, he can't see things like the world does anymore.
I know what I said sounds antithetical to what social justice warriors stand for, but I have spent time with scripture before coming to this realization. I learned to put my race, gender, or any other identity behind me when I come to the word of Christ. I realize that even my racial identity as a black need to be crucified on the cross of Christ if I must see him.
Brilliant, De’. I am a big fan of Pastor Keller, and am disappointed to see him go this direction. By his logic the Jesus’ first disciples should have fought for justice. Oh wait... John 18:36.
Great analysis! Love you comments.
Scripture before personal opinion. Always the way to go. If we are all made in the image of God, as His Word says, His image can’t possibly be a skin shade, or the thousands of other differences of appearance. His image is something else. Something we can all share and can’t possibly get any closer to by using the empty man-made labels of race. I cannot reconcile someone else’s sin by perpetuating that sin through identifying as any race other than the one that was made in the image of God.
No one can pretend that relative to some people I don’t appear “tall”, nor can we pretend that relative to some I don’t appear “white”. To give any more power to one physical characteristic over another is the devils work and he rejoices each time we wrap ourselves around the self congratulatory label of anti-racist.
I cannot move away from sin by focusing on it. “Racism” is an end result, tunnel visioned, mislabeling of what we all do to each other, inherent to our personal inborn sin; we want to decide what and who is important. Every labeled group has marginalized, criticized, raped, murdered, and slandered those who look like them before also doing it to those outside that labeled group.
Allowing ourselves to be reconciled to God through Christ Jesus, is the only work I can do to be reconciled to the rest of His children. Then, in obedience to Him, I can be his witness to Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria, and to the ends of the earth. Never being concerned about my flesh tone and that of others.
#1 - The way to solve the problem about the car dealership is to set fair prices that are non-negotiable so that everyone knows ahead of time what they are paying. Doing this means overall profit may go down because they won't make money on someone who pays more than they should because they don't negotiate well. It doesn't have to be a left/right way. Setting fair non-negotiable prices isn't "giving special consideration" to anyone, and neither does it force someone to have to learn the skill of negotiating in order to simply buy a car.
@@heatherniemisavage You are right Heather. Most things really are not right/left answers. Christ transcends our philosophically polarized compass. I was only using Keller's illustration to show the left-leaning nature of his view, especially as that perspective isn't the biblical truth. I am happy Christians are getting more involved in this discourse. By the way, it's so sad to see George Floyd's demise. God help us pursue Justice by his Word.
Religious people, help me out here. At the 2 minute mark, he begins speaking about individual vs familial/social responsibility in the book of Joshua, and seems to support/justify the harsh sentence for the family, saying that white Americans just don't understand this. So to take this to it's logical conclusion, and applying this to America today, does this means that when a criminal gets sentenced to prison, his mom, dad, brother, and sister should also be tossed into the clink?
nope....thats not what he is saying....incorrect :)
I just saw this video today!! I think I may have an answer to your question??? Sin is a corporate evil in this regard when Adam and Eve transgressed God commanded in the garden all of humanity became transgressors not because of the act of Adam but because of the nature of Adam. So we are not Sinners because we act like sinners we are sinners because we are born as sinners. Enemies of God children of the world who need to be saved from the wrath of God his judgment and his punishment. So the reason why the family was killed and put to death the idea was to stop the evil in the Rebellion from continuing. So because 450 years of chattel slavery of African Americans are over does not mean that the mental slavery of segregation and systematic racism is over. Peace!!
I think he cited Daniel Chapter 9. Ethnic groups or what the Bible calls nations, suffer for the sin of their ancestors. God often punishes a nation corporately for turning away from him and towards sin.
Bad exegesis by Keller, IMO. Can't go back to living under a law made for civil Jewish state at that time. Stoning disobedient children wouldn't go over well.
@@davidwilliams4648 and we'll always have it because of a fallen world. But current realities prove it is markedly better today than 50 years ago: mixed marriages, black 2 term president, successful black owned businesses, black judges, police chiefs, sherrifs, congressmen, high ranking government officials, teachers, lawyers, doctors.....and on and on. Don't stay in a camp that acts like no progress has been made. They just haven't lived long enough.
If I had a nickel for every time he indignantly said "white people", I could pay off my student loans.
Jordan Peterson addresses this subject well.
He says that in the Old Testament the Israelites were caught up in the idea of the greatness of the nation. But God was always bringing them back to the idea that if they forgot about the orphans and widows, the strangers and foreigners he would bring an enemy against them in judgment.
So there is this constant cycle of the state rising and falling as they at first embraced social justice and then ignored it. They repent and get it right and begin to rise again, only to forget about it again and fall again.
But in the New Testament, there is a change in conceptualisation of salvation.
The fundamental mistake was in individuals looking to the state for salvation rather than individually accepting responsibility. Their identity became wrapped up in the idea of the utopian state. And this can be true with whatever group you identify with - the American state - the Russian State, the Church, or whatever religion or group you might identify with. Its also true for the social justice groups with individuals who find their identity and “salvation” through association with those groups.
Jesus turned the whole thing on its head in the New Testament and said no - it's not about any of those external factors. Its each of us individually. “the Kingdom of God is with you”
Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, "The kingdom of God does not come with observation; nor will they say, 'See here!' or 'See there!' For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you." (Luke 17:20-21)
It's so easy to identify with a group that gives us an identity and warm feelings and forget about individual responsibility “do unto others at they would have them do unto you” and “love your enemies”
So many of us identify with a certain church, group or even state and ignore our personal social responsibilities. We satisfy ourselves that our “group” is the right.
“Why do you quote this proverb concerning the land of Israel: ‘The parents have eaten sour grapes, but their children’s mouths pucker at the taste’? As surely as I live, says the Sovereign LORD, you will not quote this proverb anymore in Israel. For all people are mine to judge-both parents and children alike. And this is my rule: The person who sins is the one who will die. “Suppose a certain man is righteous and does what is just and right. He does not feast in the mountains before Israel’s idols or worship them. He does not commit adultery or have intercourse with a woman during her menstrual period. He is a merciful creditor, not keeping the items given as security by poor debtors. He does not rob the poor but instead gives food to the hungry and provides clothes for the needy. He grants loans without interest, stays away from injustice, is honest and fair when judging others, and faithfully obeys my decrees and regulations. Anyone who does these things is just and will surely live, says the Sovereign LORD. “But suppose that man has a son who grows up to be a robber or murderer and refuses to do what is right. And that son does all the evil things his father would never do-he worships idols on the mountains, commits adultery, oppresses the poor and helpless, steals from debtors by refusing to let them redeem their security, worships idols, commits detestable sins, and lends money at excessive interest. Should such a sinful person live? No! He must die and must take full blame. “But suppose that sinful son, in turn, has a son who sees his father’s wickedness and decides against that kind of life. This son refuses to worship idols on the mountains and does not commit adultery. He does not exploit the poor, but instead is fair to debtors and does not rob them. He gives food to the hungry and provides clothes for the needy. He helps the poor, does not lend money at interest, and obeys all my regulations and decrees. Such a person will not die because of his father’s sins; he will surely live. But the father will die for his many sins-for being cruel, robbing people, and doing what was clearly wrong among his people. “‘What?’ you ask. ‘Doesn’t the child pay for the parent’s sins?’ No! For if the child does what is just and right and keeps my decrees, that child will surely live. The person who sins is the one who will die. The child will not be punished for the parent’s sins, and the parent will not be punished for the child’s sins. Righteous people will be rewarded for their own righteous behavior, and wicked people will be punished for their own wickedness.
(Ezekiel 18:2-20) ua-cam.com/video/CCww_LTfJz8/v-deo.html
"Jordan Peterson addresses this subject well." Sureeeee.
Great response - do you think the ideas of "greatness of our nation" can be easily transferred to "greatness of our race"? And if true, doesn't that mean that we, as whatever race we are, bear some responsibility for how other members of our race treat other races? In other words, was "judging correctly" in John 7:24 commanded to Israel corporately, or Israelites individually?
Joshua Jones Is a Bosnian immigrant who survived genocide in his homeland a white American who shares in the corporate guilt that is imputed to all whites?
Survivors of the Armenian genocide? Gay white people? White Argentines? Russian-speaking Kyrgyz? Disabled Tartars? As long as they immigrate to western nations do they take on all the white guilt? What do you do with people of mixed heritage or dual nationality? How do we calculate their corporate guilt? In fact, many whites grow up in neighborhoods, or high schools, or cities where they are minorities themselves. Designating majority/minority status on a national basis is arbitrary. It can be designated at other levels just as reasonably. There are also categories beyond race that can put someone in a minority/majority context. The truth is that there are many complex reasons why different categories of people might not have the same outcome in a given situation. That does not make every process that results in disparate outcomes inherently evil. There is always a political collectivist agenda behind claims of white privilege. It's a repackaging of warmed-over cultural Marxism, just with bourgeoisie and proletariat replaced with whatever new class concepts you want to use in a modern dialectic. You can repackage Marxism away from class and replace it with race, gender, etc and get the same result. It's divide and conquer for the totalitarians and virtue signallers. A lot of people that talk about systemic racism and evil and systemic race injustice are self-righteous as they do it, not willing to resign the privileges they think everyone else should ua-cam.com/video/CCww_LTfJz8/v-deo.html
@@amazinglovemission You read a lot into my response that wasn't there. I didn't mention the term white privilege. I didn't mention Marxism. I didn't even mention systemic racism.
All I *asked* - and it was a question, is whether or not there is such a thing as collective responsibility. If you say *no* to that, there's going to be some problems. Like, what does the Bible mean when it says Rome, or Babylon, or Gomorrah? And yes, it won't be easy to surrender wealth, or power, or land - but look at Christ. What did He command? What did He surrender?
@@joshuajones7210 The context of the video and subsequent discussion is, in no small part, white privilege. I was addressing an element of this so I don't think it's unreasonable to infer it here. The idea of white privilege has a strong connection to cultural Marxism. I think your subsequent questions reveal it's on the right track
I like Tim Keller, but I’m not sure if I agree with this speech. The gospel is this: we are all sinners in need of a savior, and we are redeemed through faith in Jesus Christ.
Yes, corporate responsibility is a thing, and our sin doesn’t just affect ourselves; but, suggesting whites should repent for the sins committed by men a generation or two before us, I’m not sure if that’s right. Yes, slavery existed. Yes, it was wrong. Yes, racism exists. Yes, it is wrong. I’m not sure what we are supposed to do about it other than “love our neighbor as ourself.” Some blacks are demanding reparations, is that something Tim Keller agrees with? Should whites have to give money to blacks even if our ancestors didn’t have slaves? Should Jews be demanding reparations from Germans? Heck, should I have to apologize to Jews just because I have German blood in me? Apologizing for a crime you didn’t commit is ridiculous. I can be compassionate and understanding about racial injustice, and I condemn what happened to George Floyd, but don’t condemn me for something a person with similar skin color did- that’s the exact thing that black people are upset about. Judge each man according to his own deeds. Just because I’m white doesn’t make me racist. Just because a person is black doesn’t make them a criminal. Judge each man according to his fruit.
"It is not our business to become involved in #slavery. Those are #social issues. We have been called to #preach the #gospel. We must deliver the Word. We must save people's #souls. We must not get involved in the issues of liberating people from the chains of slavery. If they accept #Jesus #Christ as their Savior, by and by they will be free - over there."
- Tom Skinner quoting "the [strangely #silent ] #evangelical, Bible-believing, #fundamental, #orthodox, #conservative church"
(from keynote address at #InterVarsity #Christian Fellowship's 1970 Urbana Conference)
🛐✝
Tim makes some insightful points. For all us white Christians we don’t fully understand the effects of our culture on our attitudes and behavior towards others. Martin Luther King Jr’s letter from the Birmingham jail is a good illustration.
And signal all the evangelically influenced people complaining about his message of corporate responsibility when this talk about systemic racism is the most biblically sound ever!!! Thank you to this amazing man! The white patriarchal evangelical church will hate this message but this is what Christ would say - we may not have to pay for the sins of our fathers but we do need to pay for a system that our white fathers have set up that we as white sons benefit the most from. Bless this amazing man!
It starts in the home
So true.
Yes it does. Families have lost the truest since of the meaning.
well said Tim. as Christians from every tongue and tribe we have a moral responsibility to be fair and impartial to all, just as Christ was to us
He does a great job describing a system and leaves it to our imagination as to what the system actually is. Is a church system, a federal government system, state or local system? What actually is the systems rules and practices that are based on ‘race’ or actually ethnicity? Theory is useless if not grounded in reality and the practical.
He gave some examples in his stories: car dealership, school, criminal system. I think his point is that we need to retrain our eyes to see these systems in place that we take part in but do not take responsibility for.
illuminaries Regarding criminal justice, black community leaders pushed hard to get harder sentencing for crack cocaine dealers, which disproportionately put blacks in jail for a long time. How about 7000 blacks were killed last year mostly by other blacks. How about 70% of black kids growing up without dads in the home. Car dealerships, it’s one car dealership he said was studied and I would need a study to learn how that translates to a systemic issue. We are in a federal government system and generally the most power is on the hands of the local mayors then governors. Check out Chicago, it’s a nightmare. Who runs Chicago, who runs NYC? It’s easy to see whose policies are at work and whose policies I already condemn and have condemned my adult life.
Eric S negotiating for a car or anything else is a skill, not a racial issue. The dealer tries to get the most he can from each person.. is that right ? It’s the dealer’s individual choice , not mine . Why would I be responsible for the wickedness of another persons heart ? I am not big enough to take on his sin ... only Jesus can and did do that
The thing I love the most about Islam is that if you do bad things you know you are going to hell. No one is going to die for your sins. It restores accountability to the human spirit.
I don't know anyone who is unable to stop sinning before they die. People who love God but realize they still sin can see they need God's grace & forgiveness. God has demanded blood be spilled for sin, and he also said animal blood was not good enough, so God himself came to earth through the person of Jesus, who was God incarnate, in the flesh of man, and he walked & talked & taught what God wants & about sin is. He then took our sins on himself. We have the responsibility of choosing to accept that sacrifice for us, and to change with the help of God's Spirit.
Read Jesus' parable of the farmer who scattered seed. It's a metaphor for how people hear the word & how they respond to it. Some never take root & die spiritually. Some start but turn back to sin & die. Some though do grow deep roots in God's word & grow spiritually. They are people who put God first.
People who follow islam who reject Christ have rejected God's loving sacrifice for their sins. Please pray for Jesus to reach put to you & show you himself through whatever means he chooses to. Read who he is in the book of John.
2 Kings 14:6 But HE DID NOT PUT TO DEATH THE CHILDREN OF THE MURDERERS, ACCORDING TO WHAT IS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW OF MOSES, WHERE THE LORD COMMANDED, “Fathers Shall Not Be Put To Death Because Of Their Children, Nor Shall Children Be Put To Death Because Of Their Fathers. But EACH ONE SHALL DIE FOR HIS OWN SIN.”
Deuteronomy 24:16 “Fathers Shall Not Be Put To Death Because Of Their Children, Nor Shall Children Be Put To Death Because Of Their Fathers. Each One Shall Be Put To Death FOR HIS OWN SIN.
Exodus 34:7 Keeping steadfast love for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, but who will by no means clear the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children and the children's children, to the third and the fourth generation.”
Numbers 14:18 ‘The Lord is slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love, forgiving iniquity and transgression, but he will by no means clear the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, to the third and the fourth generation.’
Ezekiel 18:19-20 “Yet YOU SAY, ‘Why Should Not The Son Suffer For The Iniquity Of The Father?’ When the son has done what is just and right, and has been careful to observe all my statutes, he shall surely live. the soul who sins shall die. THE SON SHALL NOT SUFFER FOR THE INIQUITY OF THE FATHER, NOR THE FATHER SUFFER FOR THE INIQUITY OF THE SON. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and The Wickedness Of The Wicked SHALL BE UPON HIMSELF.
Jeremiah 31:29-34 In those days they shall no longer say: “‘The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge.’ But EVERYONE SHALL DIE FOR HIS OWN SIN. Each man who eats sour grapes, his teeth shall be set on edge. “Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the Lord. But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. ...
Galatians 6:7-8 DO NOT BE DECEIVED: God is not mocked, for WHATEVER ONE SOWS, THAT WILL HE ALSO REAP. For The One Who Sows To His Own Flesh Will From The Flesh Reap Corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
Romans 12:19 Beloved, NEVER AVENGE YOURSELVES, but Leave It To The Wrath Of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.”
beautiful compilation
Thank you ! Great verses , very helpful . I’m just not “woke” and I don’t worship “woke” theology . We each stand before the Lord , individually . God sees Jesus’ righteousness, not my sins. I am not held accountable for my father’s sins , or anyone else’s . 🤷♀️. That’s my understanding . There is nothing new under the sun, there is injustice everywhere , and it will continue until the Lord returns . Only He can bring justice and healing .
I'm not entirely sure that I know exactly what message you're trying to get across, but if it's that corporate evil does not exist, the systems that oppress people on a massive, national scale are only possible if the society is compliant with those who uphold the system internally. Allowing someone's sin to fester without confronting it is sin. It is _your_ responsibility and obligation to speak against the system that paints vulnerable people as criminals or "bad people", and if you don't, you're guilty. Silence is violence, as many are saying today.
If what was spoken still doesn't make sense, I'll spell it out: DISCIPLINE.
Proverbs 13:24 ~ "Whoever spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him is diligent to discipline him."
Galatians 6:1 ~ "Brothers, if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted."
Proverbs 29:15 ~ "A rod of correction imparts wisdom, but a child left to himself disgraces his mother." Note that it says the child disgraces his _mother_ , not _himself_ .
Titus 2:15 ~ "Declare these things; exhort and rebuke with all authority. Let no one disregard you.
"
It is everyone's responsibility to call out sin for what it is. That's what Jesus did time and time again (read Luke 11).
An interesting compilation of verses but dropping the wider context. If you believe in the concept of Original sin, how do you reconcile those verses with that concept? If you do not believe in the concept of Original sin, you probably do not if you strongly reject corporate guilt, how do you explain that we have to be born outside of Eden and from communion with God because of the sin that Adam and Eve did, and now needing Jesus? The Bible is based on judgment against corporate guilt. Just think of Daniel and Ezekiel and many other good people who went to exile with them. Why did they have to suffer and receive the punishment for the sin of corporate Israel in the form of Babylonian exile? Those are just a few examples if you are willing to think deeper into what the Bible is all about.
@@BlueGrovyle I disagree with your presupposition that there is a problem with racism. I see the problem as deeper. I agree that discipline is always needed along with accountability but so is discernment. Discernment to see that an agenda for your mind is at hand and those behind it want us divided using the tool of racism. It is already dividing churches who should be teaching we are one race under Adam. I hope you watch Voddie's talks.
There is a Worldy philosophy (That humans learn from the world and that shapes how they think- Our System of thought) and the Biblical or Word Philosophy ( Our System of Thought based on the word of God- Romans 12:2) with all due respect to Tim Keller his philosophy is based on the former. Paul clearly writes how Biblical philosophy is in 2 Corinthians 5:17. Tim is allowed to think about how he wants to however he should say it according to the word of God.
Completely Disagree! I’m actually making a response video to this message for my channel.
Colin Miller link?
@@philipbrister Its coming out in just 2 days!
@@philipbrister I can send the link when I put it out if you'd like.
Colin Miller saw your other stuff. Liked it. Subscribed.
@@philipbrister That means so much brother! Your advice and comments are much appreciated.
Timothy, why don't you talk about America repenting of abortion?
@@jeffreyyoungblood7438 I don't think so. Timothy Keller wants people to repent of systemic racism--which doesn't exist--rather than bring up something we all know exists, abortion. And btw, abortion kills 300,000 black babies per year, now if we want to talk about systemic racism we should talk about the abortion industry. Black babies make up 35% of aborted babies. I'd hate to talk about problems we can actually see and lives we can actually save though. Instead, lets talk about "implicit bias" and "unconscious bias"
He does, just not here.
Because that was not the topic of the conference he was speaking at.
@@realperson4494 If you can talk about "systemic" with the abortion issue, then it can certainly happen with racism. And being a white guy who has talked to black friends who have experienced it, thankfully God gives me enough empathy to understand it and to be, prayerfully, part of the solution. And I thank God for that.
I think this talk is really great but a pity that he ended it the way that he did and didn't go into detail to flesh out the idea of self-righteous anger and righteous anger. The emotions behind systemic oppression are real and holy. If we miss the anger and pain that are being experienced we are missing the complete picture of what's wrong and what needs to be done to bring healing. I think part of the cultural blindness also applies to how we perceive emotionality. In Western culture, emotionality is seen as something bad. Something to ignore, suppress, and push down in order to be truly objective, but the Bible again and again honours the emotions humans have as part of the complete human experience. The anger and hurt shouldn't be directed at people in order to make others feel enslaved to shame or guilt, but it's also not helpful to tune out the raw frustration that people experiencing oppression are feeling. Christians on the receiving end must receive and be secure in their grace, and Christians on the giving end must also show grace.
I think he was doing a starter course for understanding.
The scriptures say be angry & sin not. I presume you are not afflicted by systemic racism. Shut up.
Actually the old testament is collectivist but the new is individualistic. (Teeth set on edge etc.) We should not be condemned for others sins, but we should recognise the extent to which we may have been influenced by the spirit that caused the error.
What makes you think the NT is individualistic?
@@bobpolo2964 God said in Jeremiah 29 that children would no longer be held responsible for the sins of their fathers. Yes in the Old testament an individual had to to become righteous through self improvement and this could be seen as individualistic. But in terms of guilt and faith the OT is collectivist. In terms of other's needs the NT is collectivist. It's not clear cut. If we believe in equality before God and before the law then we will respect everyone as an individual because no matter what group or status a person belongs to they must be treated the same.
@@burdoch1 I'm not aware of the OT teaching anything about righteousness being earned through self-improvement. Paul would strongly disagree with that claim.
I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose. Galatians 2:21
@@bobpolo2964 how would OT believers become righteous?
@@burdoch1 Faith
I just listen to this... I am confused by what he is trying to accomplish here... our churches are trying to please society as a whole but when you go after a certain group it causes anger. I am Hispanic and for the life of me I do not know where I fit into all of this. But my church wants me to read and listen to this and I don't agree with some of this. I have black members in my family and I have white members in my family and I love them all. I am married to a American Italian woman who has 2 sons that are also half German. They are my sons now when I married her and I love them dearly. (I have 3 sons of my own) I have a lot of black friends and white friends. I pray for all. I pray for love and peace. I pray for a better country and world. This is a group affair. All sides need to get together and figure out what needs to be done but that will never happen. There are people (all races) out there that don't ever want to see it happen. Jesus is my Savior. He died for me. Hopefully this makes some sense out there. I am just disappointed with it all.
Well, if a brother is starving and you see him would it be better to give him food (deal with it) or just ignore it and pray about it? The same question can be applied to race, if you see injustice should you speak about or should you just ignore it and pray about it?
Unfortunately, Tim has become a false teacher and has bowed his knee to CRT and the Social Justice Gospel which is a false gospel. Ignore this man but pray for him to stop seeking the approval of the world.
His story at 15:00 is a good example of the SJW mindset. Unequal results are not necessarily unjust, nor are they necessarily an indication of injustice.
I agree !
@@finnyjoy4520 Sure. Inequalities can be caused by a lot of things, including divine choice and human choice. God creates people with different abilities and puts them in different positions, so he's ok with inequality. We cannot say that just because there's an inequality, it means someone oppressed someone else.
With the example Keller gave at 15:00, it isn't possible to be consistent with the type of reasoning he applied. That would mean all negotiation would be unjust, because some group of people might be worse at negotiating than others. We'd have to eliminate basically all competition to get the kind of equality he's calling for. And I'm not saying this because I'm a "typical white person" who refuses to see injustice (if I were even a white person), it's because I'm reasoning through this and it just doesn't make sense.
God doesn't tell us to make sure outcomes are equal. He does tell us to use honest weights, which basically means don't tell people you're giving them one thing while giving them another. It would certainly be unjust if the sellers in Keller's story were dishonestly switching out prices for different groups, but they weren't.
Social justice says there must be equal results to have justice, God's justice says we must apply standards equally to all. (This may very well result in inequalities!)
The short answer is that the expectation for equal results is a man-made thing, and is not something God requires in his Word.
injustice is literally precisely that, partiality. "unequal results are not necessarily unjust." sure, without context that statement makes sense. the problem is, Keller provided context, and within that context the example provided is the epitome of partiality, or injustice. how you commented that without realizing the obvious contradiction is actually mind boggling!
@@sonnyankau9239 I totally disagree. This is not partiality. No one was switching prices when they see a certain type of person coming. What he's talking about is ethics based on result, which is incoherent. I stand by it: inequality is not necessarily injustice. If inequality is injustice, the world doesn't make sense. It would mean God himself is unjust.
@@joelebert9767 you don't see it as partiality because it isn't intentional or direct. unfortunately for you partiality doesn't always work that way. nor is it dependent on either of those things to exist.
Love Tim Keller but I am lost on some of his premises. I I don't think I'm alone in saying I don't necessarily feel there is a white culture in America or that white Americans necessarily see each other in these terms. There is so much diversity that we have more in common based on our values and beliefs. Skin color alone is not what binds us. I have more in common with my black brothers and sisters in Christ then I do with my atheist white next door neighbor. Linsanity was a bad example. The Chinese are a nationality not an entire race. Whites may not rally around someone just because he or she is white (the Great White Hope?) but certainly people are proud of those accomplished athletes who share
the same ancestry or nationality.
I grew up PCA and loved Tim Keller too but recently more of this has come to light and I found many of his books also push these ideas (past 10-20 years actually). Generous Justice is one example. I would really dig into some of these claims hes making and try to find his Biblical support. The biblical support for his claims of corporate sin/guilt were not logical or supported by other theologians from what I could find. He chastises large groups of people, mostly all white people, for a myriad of problem minorities face with extremely unsound and unbiblical logic.
@@jeffreyyoungblood7438 I never made a claim to having any "feelings" one way or another (as part of the majority or minority). That's the whole point, you're feelings do not indicate the truth. My daughters feelings get hurt when I put her doll in the wrong place according to her so she cries. I love her and help her but I don't have to agree with her that her emotional response was valid. I can be compassionate yet at the same time refute what someone is saying even if its about their emotions. Because they can deceive you.. I don't have to have the emotional experience of black people to justly look at their situation.
Logical analysis and reflection on the Bible is what determines whether there are injustices. Corporate sin or guilt is not supported in the Bible, feel free to show me otherwise or link some other theologian who supports an idea of being guilty of sin from your people group or demographic. I looked and couldn't find any and was turned back to passages like below that clearly says, we are only guilty of our sin.
biblia.com/bible/esv/ezekiel/18
@@jeffreyyoungblood7438 well I did live In Japan for a while as a missionary. I certainly remember rooting for Akebono the American sumo wrestler. Of course, he was Hawaiian though.
@@Josh.1234 Daniel, Nehemiah, job, just to name a few all repented of the sins of their culture, ancestors, city, etc.
@@jeffreyyoungblood7438 Making a corporate prayer of repentance for your people is not admitting guilt for what they have done.
I'm sorry but I really don't understand his premise. If we are responsible for our community or for corporate guilt, why is salvation such a personal choice? Why is sin removed only by the personal commitment to Christ we make? Why doesn't Jesus's sacrifice just save everyone? I'm fundamentally not getting what he's saying about sin. I can understand silence being complicity in sin (1 Cor 5:6 or even Joshua 7 being examples of people bearing responsibility for knowing silence) but if we are so radically associated with others sin or success, why have personal grace? What does that even mean anymore? What are the delineations of my responsibility vs yours? I usually like Tim Keller for his thought out approach but this was so careless that I'm upset.
You don't understand because he's reaching. He's wrong.
What he's doing is called critical race theory.
Watch this video for helpful discussion on it.
ua-cam.com/video/FwyJk1G_Dm0/v-deo.html
because many people in the meaningless "christian" religion believe the "gospel" to mean anything they want. not jesus' life, death, resurrection, and asencion, but literally anything can be added/ removed. when speakers talk about "the gospel", they often do not even give a definition, but prey on the traditionalism of religious people's assumptions about religious words. this is why i no longer go to church: you inevitably fall under the control of community-brain, which is always being controlled by leaders and their chums.
Tim is obviously making a one sided argument since he did not address the following scriptures: Deuteronomy 24:16
Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their fathers; each is to die for his own sin.
Ezekiel 18:20
The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him.
People say they want an honest conversation, but it’s rare they really do.
As a white person, I can take the idea I am partly responsible for a system, and I need to repent and help make it right. I tithe, go beyond by donating to minority causes, and work professionally to help the poor. None of this is to make myself feel better, but out of a true conviction of what our race did.
But when I’m told I STILL don’t know enough/do enough, I start to feel defensive. When I’m told I’m still a racist when I’m trying to be open and learn, it’s defeating.
For all of you (coincidentally, most of whom are White Americans...) who are so up in arms about this sermon, even though this may be a useless attempt on my behalf... if I may, please allow me to offer you this example to help explain his message a little better:
My aunt remembers the last time she set foot in a church. It was some time in the 50's when she was very young (maybe 7 or 8 at the time) and my Grandmother wanted to take her and her younger brothers (my father and uncle) to church. She took them to the nearest chapel in the city where they lived at that time. Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that my Grandmother and her children were all Black. So you can imagine what happened when they walked into what happened to be a White church... My Grandmother entered the church with her three children and proceeded to a seat near the front so that they would be able to hear and see everything, well. As they made their way down the isle, they were approached by members of the Church staff and basically, turned away. My aunt remembers how humiliating it was for them , especially my Grandmother. I remember my aunt saying "If this is what God is about, and if he thinks this is okay, then I don't want anything to do with this."
As a Christian, I take it upon myself to do apologetics as often as I can when it comes to these issues. I took it upon myself as a Christian to make an attempt to answer for the pain and disgrace those racist, so-called "Christians" sinfully, invoked upon my aunt so many years ago, by addressing the issue, repenting of it to her, listening to my aunt and allowing her to voice her anger and frustration that was as a result that injustice. For her, because she didn't know anything about the Bible or Jesus at the time, she saw it as being a Biblical issue as much as it was a racial issue. Since however I am not White, I could only, really help to heal the Biblical "misrepresentations" that occurred as a result of those racist "Christians"... So in regards to what Keller is saying, my question is this: What if I just said to myself "well, that's horrible, it's too bad that happened to my aunt, but hey, that wasn't me! I am good Christian and so I don't need to answer for what those terrible Christians did to her!"... and left it at that? Perhaps, I don't "have" to respond, but personally, I feel that if I am refusing to do as much as I can to right the wrongs of Christian-misrepresentation by helping people who have been hurt or deceived by false "Christians" or any other vice that Satan utilizes in our era, then I have failed in my ministry to others, in a big way. However, I take this question, one step further and ask "what if just ONE of those racist White "Christians" had realized their sin, and actually cared enough about the horrible way they had represented their race and their faith, and later came and apologized to my aunt, telling her that "this isn't who Jesus is" and made some attempt to help her heal and overcome that incident? To that I respond with saying that, thankfully, I think my aunt knew some friends who were white believers who may have been able help her through some of that... but again, what if those White believers had done exactly what Keller is describing in regards to how so many White people react about this issue?... that is to basically say, "not my fault"? For the record, Keller isn't saying it's "White People's Fault" I know many minorities who will say this, and I disagree that it's all White People's fault.... however, just know that to blatantly, outright deny the existence of centuries of systemic oppression that have been foundational in the construction of the plight of not just Black Americans, but EVERY minority who was affected by the great injustices that are were systemically, inflicted upon them during the forming of this country is only adding to the cycle of race issues that our entire country is facing as a result of very, real history. Instead of playing the blame game, I think Keller's main point is, as White Christians, your responsibility is not towards paying for the sins of your ancestors, but instead to actually give a crapp about what happened beyond just saying "yeah, that's too bad, now just get over it and leave me alone..." and to help people who are still historically, effected by those injustices perpetrated upon them by your ancestors to heal by acknowledging those injustices and the reality that they are still effecting minority groups in America, today. It's not taking the blame, it's not paying reparations, and it's not in any way removing the very difficult responsibility that minority groups have of overcoming these circumstances within their own cultures... What it IS is not being a scaredy cat or a coward and denying the existing, repercussions but instead and in this case, being a Christ Follower and caring for others by placing them before yourself and doing your part in any way to help fix the misrepresentation of Christianity that Satan has imposed upon so many through fake, false or deceived so-called "Christians".
Over the years my aunt made attempts to try to read her Bible, even if out of some type of respect for my Grandmother, who still did attend Church after that incident. I did my best to communicate to my aunt the love of Jesus and to tell her that God is NOT for racism and that he shows "no favoritism" and that most churches are not that way, now. I was even able to get her comfortable enough with coming to visit my church at the time, but she never personally, set foot in a church after that incident.
This is an excellent writing. I am a white 61 y/o female. Keller's sermon gave me a lot to think about. Your writing solidified it. thank you
And Jesus wept. This makes me beyond sad.
I think there has been tremendous progress in the area of racism since the '50s. Also there are multiple ways to hate multiple people. I have experience extreme harassment and I am white
You don't say, but it sounds like the incident took place in the south in the 1950's. What you may not know is that the laws in most southern states made such integration illegal. Night clubs were often raided by police and the white and black people in them jailed for violating the laws against integration. That church may have been trying to avoid a similar problem. But the laws have been changed, thank God. Still, white people in Oregon were not guilty of the sin of racism against your family even if they knew about the problem in southern states.
It is every Christian's duty to defend the faith against misrepresentation, and I agree with your statement about too many shrugging off that responsibility. We need to make sure that the name of Christ isn't dragged through the mud by being equated to hypocritical so called "Christians". Yesterday I saw people washing protester's feet and praying for forgiveness. They said "we misrepresented God" and "we burned crosses" rather than pointing out that those were not real Christians at all, and denouncing it as anti Christian. This is further complicated by Christians who remain silent against misrepresentation of Christ's church, and do as you said as far as seeing it as "not their problem". We should all come together and fix society's issues through Christ Jesus, so many are lost and living in spiritual darkness. We all need salvation through our Lord Jesus, and the more that get saved, the better off our nation will be, not to mention the world. God bless you.
All I can say is "Thank you!" This old white lady is getting woke (it's never too late).
Please don’t
“Woke” has become another religion.. Keller is twisting and contorting to try and prove his “woke” theology😔.
@@janeteaton3240 What's wrong with it?
Keller is a social justice warrior (was). Social gospel. Do not buy into this....
L P This is an invited speech not a sermon. Secondly, I think many Christians prefer to hear from pastors what make them feel comfortable rather than the truth. As a Christian, do you think we are exempt from all guilts and sins not responsible for problems in the society?
Very, very sad to see Tim Keller fall into Liberation Theology. Keller has been one of my very favorite pastors and thinkers. But this movement into this way of thinking is undermining his historical impact. I remember well the force of Liberation Theology is terrorizing Central America in the 1980s. Placing blame collectively can never result in resolution of multicultural tensions as it foments hostilities than can never be resolved and create the kind of hate we see in the Middle East today. Others on this thread have pointed out the biblical objections to the notion that one is guilty of the sins of ones father. Taken together it seems Keller has made not just a mistake but has added fuel to a fire that may burn for generations.
...Liberation Theology?!
Thank you Dr. Keller for this incredible message and words of wisdom from God's Word. So very timely for us today. Thank you for opening my eyes to my role in the corporate racism that continues to this day. May God use this and other messages to awaken the Western White Church to action. We must combat the blight of systemic racism in our nation and world. Forgive me Lord for my complacency and apathetic attitude.
What is the primary systemic racism issue that needs addressed immediately?
Eric S Did you listen to his talk? How about the police culture toward Black people & the horrible schools Black kids are subjected to for starters?
@@erics7570 There are none -- systemic racism is a lie.
I'm not "White", and completely disagree with this. I didn't know Keller drank the Kool aid.
phenomenal. Thank you, Tim. What would we do without the gospel...
Too much twisting and contortions g to try to prove his theory/ theology
@@janeteaton3240 Hello! I'm curious as to what has informed this statement you just made. Would you mind explaining? Thank you.
Michael Fujimoto Keller is twisting the scriptures he does use to try to prove his point of responsibility . Yet he avoids all of the scriptures where God says that He will not punish sons for their fathers’ sins , nor will He punish fathers for their son’s sins. All of those verses are ignored. We will all stand before God individually and give an account . I will not be called to give an account for your actions , only mine . I do not accept the judgement of guilt for “white privilege” or being racist. That in itself is racism. I will not worship at the alter of “social justice” , I am not part of the “woke” church and do not subscribe to that theology . I bow only to Jesus . Changed hearts are the only answer and only God can do that .
What would we do without the gospel, you ask. You do realize the social justice movement (as we know it in America today) is disproportionately non-Christian, right? In other words, those of us that don't believe the gospel are, on average, doing more of what Keller advocates here than those of us that do believe the gospel.
Patrick Cleburne you do realize that the “social justice “ narrative is another gospel , with its sin , and saviors , guilt and redemption . This isn’t God’s gospel
I understand he says its corporate racism but he continues to prove it by showing individual cases.
you are right, that is one of my major problems with this message. the other is his extremely weak use of scripture to support his idea of corporate evil (i really don't believe he is gleaning the truth in those passages). seems like he is twisting those passages to add up to a outcome he has already determined... eek. i am trying to find another reputable theologian who also supports this view corporate evil/racism and its backing in scripture but so far no luck
Individuals make-up CORPORATE or are we consciously trying to separate the two?!! One canNOT possibly understand nor should they give comment if they NEVER experienced the subject matter and this is where black and white folks opinion differ... experience!!! At times the truth is very difficult to swallow and at times people act as if the truth doesn't exist!
Yes especially about the prostitution. He justified it. End does not justify the means in Bible. Jesus did say go and sin no more.
Waking the Dead I don't believe that he is justifying that sin, nor do I think he is painting it in a positive light. I think he is more so highlighting the fact that the "converter", so to speak, was unable to approach her with a heart willing to listen to how she got into her situation and once the situation was explained there was a moment of realization of the hopelessness she felt. Powerlessness. I have never experienced the fear of authority figures in the same manner my friends of color have.
I also tend to reflect on Jesus' reactions to my own sin, especially sin that leads to consequences that hurt. He still hears me, he still loves me, he still heals the wounds that are more or less self inflicted, and he teaches me to trust him more and follow him to a better path of freedom. I think that's a great reflection of what people often need. Obviously, all led by the Spirit and based on scripture.
WOW, Waking the Dead. You missed the entire point of what he was teaching through that example... FIRST, Jesus defended that woman against her assailants who obeying the Hypocrisy imposed by the Teachers of the Law who in their wickedness were pretending to obey Biblical law but were in fact acting on their own self-justified SYSTEMS OF OPPRESSION of the people they were in power over, in an attempt to entrap Jesus in order to discredit him, which thankfully (because God knows the hearts of wicked men) fell flat on it's face! When she was no longer in danger, and Jesus had in fact, SAVED her from physical, and circumstantial, harm, FIRST he said that he DIDN'T CONDEMN HER, and LASTLY "Go and sin no more"! You ignored every single other detail that happened prior to your point which was as pharisaical as ever, as you basically are saying about her: "well, you sin and sin is bad and so you are bad and that's all, NO GRACE FOR YOU! ROT IN YOUR JUSTIFIABLE CONDEMNATION!... but not me, because I have never done THOSE types of things and your sin is worse then mine."
We are ALL TALK.. because we aren't dealing with these experiences, we get to stand on a podium, point a judgmental finger and say statements like "End does not justify the means in Bible. Jesus did say go and sin no more..." because we haven't committed these particular sins and we seem to completely forget about God's universal grace, UNTIL we have done something that we need forgiveness for, and THEN we are all about mercy and forgiveness (for ourselves, because we actually deserve it, right?...), but only when it justifies us! You also are totally representing the Privileged, American "Christian's" perspective by the fact that you clearly have NO IDEA what it must be like to be the terrified, young girl in the example that he gives! To have the very people who are appointed by law to protect you be the very threat to you and your family's safety! WHO KNOWS what you would do in a terrifyingly desperate situation such as that! ... and so, since you know that you REALLY don't know how you would react (or maybe you honestly do...) you throw your hands up and say, with ZERO COMPASSION or even a hint of realization of Keller's point: "SO WHAT, end doesn't justify the means, sinner!" WOW... maybe some day, God will allow you to be in a situation as desperate as this, so that you feel the helplessness and hopelessness that this young woman experienced so that you can learn to look at the plight of your fellow humans with even a HINT of the grace and mercy that you have been blessed to lavish in whilst in your comforts and securities! THEN, we will see what kind of response you will have!
"It is not our business to become involved in #slavery. Those are #social issues. We have been called to #preach the #gospel. We must deliver the Word. We must save people's #souls. We must not get involved in the issues of liberating people from the chains of slavery. If they accept #Jesus #Christ as their Savior, by and by they will be free - over there."
- Tom Skinner quoting "the [strangely #silent ] #evangelical, Bible-believing, #fundamental, #orthodox, #conservative church"
(from keynote address at #InterVarsity #Christian Fellowship's 1970 Urbana Conference)
🛐✝
If there is corporate responsibility like it is laid out here, is there also corporate judgement then?
Absolutely.
I believe mentioned it directly, both the fall of man, and the salvation of man, via Adam and Jesus are corporate. The other example he used was Akin. After the battle of Jerico the Israelites lost a battle and when the approached God Akin was exposed and his whole family stoned.
@@josephgering9833
Akin's whole family was not stoned. He had his parents, his wife (unknown where she was. Dead perhaps), his aunts, his uncles, and his cousins; all a part of the family that produced him. But only those who lived in the tent and were punished. The commentaries I have point out that God does not punish the innocent for the wicked, except for the one time of Christ. And that was one taking on the sins of many, not many taking on the sins of a few.
The fall is not corporate sin nor judgement in the same way, but is a corporate covenant. You are a sinner on your own without Adam.
Daniel was a young man at the time of the Babylonian captivity. He is likely praying because he was a sinner whose sins contributed to the fall of Israel, not an innocent who was guilty of and punished for the sins of others.
@@acarpentersson8271 thank you. I had replied hastily early in the morning.
@@josephgering9833 yes. Corporate in the sense of Akins family, not the whole nation of Israel. Families are seen as units in the Bible, because they are in a sense a reflection of God Himself; three in one, Father, Mother (Spirit) and Son.
So in that sense, I understand the corporate punishment/responsibility fell on Akin and his family - and as A Carpenter's Son already said, under the same tent.. The way it is used here though by Tim Keller, it seems like whole nations, races, for generations have to be judged for and punished for their heritage. It is unclear how and why this is so, and how a nation can be redeemed from that blight.
With Akin, the judgement and punishment was quick and clear and just. If it becomes drawn out, murky, and ambiguous, it is rather tyrannical, unpredictable and therefore unjust - like a moody Lady Justice.
If a nation is seen as a common union of individuals with common values and goals and interests, each with individual rights, duties and freedoms, commonly adjudicated and upheld ... then this does not make sense.
If Tim Keller is saying i.e. being white is inherently sinful and must be repented and apologised for ... well that is an outright racist statement. If he is saying, people (free will individuals with individual choices and actions and responsibilities), no matter what color or creed or 'put-desrciptor-here' are sinful and need a Saviour? Amen!
Its interesting to see people angry at this video. What is there to argue about??
Covenantally, Achan and his household were already devoted to destruction . Keller is confusing passages with covenant transgression .
25 The carved images of their gods you shall burn with fire. You shall not covet the silver or the gold that is on them or take it for yourselves, lest you be ensnared by it, for it is an abomination to the LORD your God.
26 And you shall not bring an abominable thing into your house and become devoted to destruction like it. You shall utterly detest and abhor it, for it is devoted to destruction. - Deuteronomy 7:25-26
Hmmm...I hear what he's saying, but the Bible also makes exceptions, for example Lot in Sodom and Rahab in Jericho etc....
God can do what he wants because he is God and is always just. If he punishes a whole family or a nation for the sins of one person, he is always just in what he does. It's different with people. We don't have God's wisdom and knowledge, so we are limited to judging only individuals for what they do. Since the rise of Christianity, Christians have always considered group punishment by other humans to be a grave evil. Christian individualism is one of Christianity's greatest gifts to mankind. It protects the life, liberty and property of the individual from arbitrary violation by others and the state. God can punish groups, but humans can only punish individuals.
God = Justiified Mass Murder? This is the kind of blindness that pushed me away from Christianity. Killing is killing. Why don't you worship Hitler the same way? Jews ignore the Old Testament anyways. Religion is a joke.
@@Linkxp500 Killing is killing....I disagree...some killing is justified.
@@therealmrfishpaste Mass killing is not. That's equitable to genocide. Just because you claim to be omniscient or perfect does not give you the authority.
Not having the intent to kill gives more leeway into your argument, however. Otherwise, you're hateful, sadistic, or have a political agenda.
Even if someone was executed for a crime (killing, for instance), that's not justice. It's payback. Nobody walks away happy.
Thank you, excellent thoughts. I'm a white guy, my wife is native American/Spanish. What you presented can be called "Corporate Repentance." It was Romans 5, back in the late 90's, that changed my life forever. Although, dear sir, I wish you would have actually spoken some scripture. When we speak, nothing happens. When God's written word is spoken, whole worlds are created. Speak the word of God and LET it work in people. Christ's word is spirit and life. Thank you.
"Systemic racism is a theory" - Voddie Baucham.
Did you hear him say the gospel takes white people and keeps them more or less down, and takes poor people and lifts them up? I did not know white translated to wealth or power. And I did not know that not being white makes you poor. What kind of bubble does Tim Keller live in?
@@acarpentersson8271 I did hear that and thought about commenting on it too. It's just like when Joe Biden says "Poor kids are just as bright and talented as white kids." SMH
ua-cam.com/video/GRMFBdDDTkI/v-deo.html this is where Pastor Baucham explains the theory.
I think a lot of the times when Systemic Racism is brought up it becomes a steep stumbling block for many conservative Christians who reject (and rightly so at times) some of the perils of identity politics.
Tim Keller here is explaining how our sin in the world corrupts social structures. We praise God that there has been much progress in this area. However, there is more to be done. Particularly when we observe when political policies a lot of the time disproportionately affect black people. Though race and class in America and the western world are interlinked on many levels it take honest observation to acknowledge that.
Its also helpful to see that as Tim Keller described although you may not be racist as we live in a sinful land, if we're unable to differentiate ourselves from the culture and not conform to the pattern of this world we implicitly participate in the sinful system. This goes for anything, but as Tim noted again, for Western countries this must be taken seriously especially considering the history of western nations. Thus Tim Keller calling and pleading with the Majority group to reconsider their subconscious notions is Biblical- not just a theory.
I'd also say that as we've seen a significant proportion of people of colour are genuinely mourning about injustices against their people (again not a foreign concept in scripture) to utterly dismiss this by saying systemic racism doesn't exist is unhelpful to say the least. Within the culture literature its called Gas Lighting. Rules within a Majority culture tend to benefit the majority or the affluent. Please note I said the word 'Tend'. Even conservative thinkers agree with this notion.
Lastly, just to say that systemic racism or systemic sin whatever you prefer exist doesn't necessarily mean that you align yourself with the political POV that pushes this. As followers of Jesus, our loyalties are to Jesus only. We can declare that systemic racism is wrong AND say that rioting is wrong also (As the Lord Avenges and judges ultimately). Ofc there can be unhelpful definitions- but surely Tim here describes a helpful and easy to follow one?
Fife Mustafa Very well said. I do see that the black community is grieving injustice. I am not denying that injustice exists or that they are not feeling pain. I will not sign a contract unless I can read through it first. I do not accept the premise that blacks are hunted down by cops. Personally, I do speak out against the horrors of planned parenthood. Why, because all life is cherished. I do speak about the plague of fatherlessness in the black community, why, because I have a high view of marriage and family. I will not agree to things that are or could be false narratives when facts and truth should be the basis of our actions. Referring to “blacks hunted down” last year some 7000 blacks were murdered most all by other blacks. Last year cops killed 9 unarmed blacks while cops killed 19 unarmed whites last year. I need more evidence of police targeting blacks, not with antidotal evidence but concrete numbers. Terms need defined, first of all systemic racism. What is the system and how does one prove another person’s feelings?
Tim Keller is the best
this is love thy neighbor as yourself in depth great perspective
Jan Pearson you are wrong. Jesus addressed this directly. Read the parable of the Good Samaritan. It’s very straightforward. He makes it clear that everyone is our neighbor and we have a God-given responsibility to care for all, especially when they are mistreated. I hope you’ll change your mind on the matter my friend
It is to all humanity
@Jan Pearson sorry friend this is not true
@@IrreverendThomas yes he did
@@IrreverendThomas You said it so I didn't have to.
I admired Tim but this one threw me. I listened to it like 5 times and cannot believe the analogies and false statements made. He says it like it's true. Really? The first one that threw me was Daniel. Look Daniel belonged to God's chosen. His relationship with both God and Israel was totally unique. Not your run of the mill jew. To draw the parallel between white Europeans, Americans and such to God and Daniel talking goes beyond insane.
So I decided to do some digging on why Keller would do this. The long and short is he is a believer in critical race theory philosophy. I was shocked but it explains it.
I'm not surprised. I am so sick of "Christians" buying all of this identitarian, Marxist, and demonic ideology. I only ever read one book from Keller, but even though it was flagrant, it struck me as off and leaning left theologically. This stuff is just evil. It is deceptive to its core and born from the pit of Hell.
He's equating Daniel to white Christians. Daniel saw the sins of Israel, therefore he indicted himself as guilty by association. i.e. "This is my culture, therefore i'm accountable to my culture." The problem with Keller's logic is that OT Jews didn't think culturally, but rather covenantally. They were one because of their connection to YHWH, not just race (a modern construct). Keller uses this logic to say white believers are guilty of sin because your white ancestors displayed racist behavior, and that's your culture. He's unknowingly saying your identity is in white not Christ. This is my problem with white guilt. It's unbiblical.
The hidden sin is not the connection to the culture but rather the embracing of the supremacist ideology and, perhaps, unknowingly living it out. That's the area where confession and repentance is needed. Not cultural connection by race but mindset connection by nature
Exekiel 18:17 He withholds his hand from mistreating the poor
and takes no interest or profit from them.
He keeps my laws and follows my decrees.
He will not die for his father’s sin; he will surely live.
Read the whole chapter. Exekiel 18 it is abundantly clear on this.
Why is everyone so quick to go to that verse in "Exekiel"? The point of that passage is that someone who does not repeat the sins of his father will not be punished for them. Ezekiel 18:19 says "Why does the son not share the guilt of his father?’ Since the son has done what is just and right and has been careful to keep all my decrees, he will surely live." It's about breaking the cycle, not "I shouldn't be punished for something someone else did." Read Nehemiah 9, where the people "confess their sins and the sins of their ancestors." The fact that racism exists isn't our fault, we didn't create it. But as God's people, as the ones through whom He has elected to work, we have a responsibility to confront evil to bring about restoration. It isn't a doctor's fault that a person who comes to him is sick, but it is his responsibility as a physician to do everything to restore his health. If he doesn't he's guilty of malpractice. If we claim to follow Jesus, then it is our responsibility to combat this sickness that pervades our society. If we don't, then we are guilty of helping perpetuate it and that is sin.
John Bishop confession and taking responsibility are two different things. I can confess others guilt with out taking the responsibility for the crime or sin.
@@philipbrister That is incorrect. Confession is an act of repentance, and repentance only works by admitting responsibility. That is exactly what the exiled Israelites were doing in Nehemiah 9. Confessing without taking any responsibility is a completely meaningless gesture that makes no effort to rectify or restore what has been lost as the result of sin.
John Bishop confession is the precursor to repentance but they are not one and the same. You can not repent for the thoughts and actions of others. You can confession that what others have done is wrong in the eyes of God.
And as I said, that is a meaningless gesture. If you are merely confessing another's guilt, that does absolutely nothing to fix what has been broken. What is the point of confessing another's guilt if you accept no responsibility to do anything to bring about restoration from the damage caused? If what you're saying is true, then Daniel's prayer of repentance in Daniel 9 means absolutely nothing whatsoever. Confession without repentance is apathy. "What was done was terrible; but I don't have to do anything about it."
The car dealership owner was such a bad example. 1 man saw people were being mistreated and changed the way things operate to be just. That's awesome, we should all do that.. But the problem and the solution were not corporate, they were individual.
That was not a balanced discussion and would lead one to some challenging conclusions. I understand God has dealt with "groups" (families, cities, countries), but it seems to me the primary dealings of Jesus were with individuals as individuals. And on Judgement Day, I think we will be dealt with as individuals (the entire concept of election is a very individual choosing -- not whole groups). Also, he seems to suggest it is ok for people to get their identity from what society tells them.
The car dealer example is flawed unless he is saying capitalism is inherently evil - and if so, should state so. He seems to be suggesting equal treatment should produce equal outcomes. Their is no room for different outcomes (or maybe only very narrow differences). It seemed he was saying the car dealer gave better deals to better negotiators (which he indicated was more of a male / female thing than black / white thing, but i digress) -- so it is "wrong" for better negotiators doing better than worse negotiators (does not just apply to car purchases).
It seemed the topic should be broadened to "discrimination" -- black/white, male/female, rich/poor, obese/thin, pretty/ugly, competent/dumb, industrious/lazy, etc -- because we "discriminate" among these groups all the time. And his definition of discrimination seems to be unequal outcomes.
If equal outcomes is really the end game, we need to have a broader discussion.
Could go on, but that was not a complete / balanced presentation of the issue.
To get to judgement day requires passing first through Armageddon, which is definitely a collective or corporate experience.
The difference between Adam and Eve and some random white man who owned a black slave is this: a random slave owner is not my federal head.... Adam is! He is my Covenant head. And if you want to play this out rightly, see Romans 5:1-21... God only sees 2 men in all of history.. Adam or christ. If you are in Adam you are dead in sin by virtue of his failure to fulfill the covenant of works, thus you are condemned for Adams sin. “More much” (in the worlds of paul) you are alive IF, you are found to be in Christ. This is a caricature of “federal” theology. And many Westminster theologians would condemn this reductionism of historic theology regarding federal headship. A random white slave owner is condemned for his sin AND for Adams sin. Where is the text? Keller makes his point predicated on his personal experience before exposition of the text. Where is the text? This is not helpful.
I think that's an important point. But don't you think that whether our sin is attributed to Adam or to ancestors, we should still be moved to addressing corporate evils/injustice in light of the Gospel?
@@seppukuguru7706 absolutely! I just don’t think Critical race theory is adequate to do it. I believe on a biblical worldview system can answer the egregious evils in society.
Pastor Keller has a skill at speaking into the post-modern culture and that has its place, but for minds like mine, I really value a bit of structure like Abraham Kuyper's spheres of sovereignty - State (Romans 13), Church (Ephesians 4), Family (Ephesians 6) and Individual (Romans 10). This helps avoid "identity politics".
Commerce is not a good enough excuse for systemic evil. Quite rightly the Bible says, "For the love of money is the root of all kinds of evil. And some people, craving money, have wandered from the true faith and pierced themselves with many sorrows."
Is commerce a systemic evil?
@@erics7570 Not inherently. Commerce can be used for good or evil.The root of it all lies in the heart.
This man should be challenged.
He loves the sound of his own voice and he will not accept any view or value but his own.
He really talks down to the people he is supposed to educate.
Such solid theology, and open and honest recognition of Western thinking. Thank you so much.
No, very twisted and contorted
@@janeteaton3240 only if you're a triggered white person.
@@sonnyankau9239 No, just twisted theology .. has nothing to do with me . Maybe you need to talk to God about it. It’s actually a new religion being put out there . NO THANKS ! I’ll stick with truth . But thanks for your racist comment .
@@janeteaton3240 take your meds janet.
If I am corporately guilty of Adam's sin, then so is Jesus. This is blasphemy.
Of course we all have different experiences. And yes neighborhoods tend to have their one eyed view on things. But. As with any race, one neighborhood or view does not describe the rest of the world. Most adults realize this.
Very thankful for this talk and hopeful that people will relinquish their biases and really hear the heart of the Lord on this. What's so hard about empathizing with those who are disenfranchised? What is so hard about mourning with those who mourn? What is so difficult about leveraging your privilege to help and advocate for people? So many of us get this whole Jesus follower thing so wrong. Very disheartening.
It's actually *really* easy, Mitch, because God isn't really real and you just hear whatever you want to hear, and take your own feelings and tell other people it's the word of god. It's not the word of God, god doesn't exist; it's just your useless ego.
This is damnable heresy!
If I'm to belong to a church that preaches heresy, I might as well go back to the Catholic church.
Who thinks corporations are virtuous? That premise could use some facts.
corporate, as in a group of people not a corporation. watch the video.
The biggest problem all of us face, is dying in our sins and going to hell for eternity. How others treat you here on Earth is irrelevent compared to eternity. I guess this is the start of the great falling away the church is to experience prior to the rapture.
Systematic racism in the pulpits is real & the Lord hates it. Many are not welcomed & discouraged to attend due to judgmental attitudes & derogatory comments coming from so called followers of Christ. But the mission is still plentiful & the Lord is saying follow me & I make you fishers of men/people. The old testament laws were given by the Lord to live righteously, but they became prejudice and hateful toward non believers, and still continues in the protestant circles.
The Lord knows and still says, "Follow me & I make you fishers of men. Trust Him and do everything He has commanded. " Follow me & I make you fishers of men." Don't worry about the false & greedy Sunday morning teachers....
Thank you Pastor Tim! You have proven to be consistent over the years. Thank you for using your gifts and vocation to do what is right at what may become some cost to yourself.
Message me on watsapp for prayer request,seed sowing and deliverance. +1 (609) 536-3187
His theology has been majorly flawed but now he has gone full heretic.
If the white Christian population can swallow this message it would be a start, but the reactions to this presentation informs us that racism is alive and the caring that should be coming from the lighter skinned demographic is what it is. . ...a part of the reality that they fail to acknowledge, because it is not happening to them.
If the first thought you have is that criticism is racism then you should look at yourself first. It reminds me of a black radio host David Webb being called out as having white privilege by another black because of a criticism he had of her comment. She didn’t know he was black.
the Bible does not promote a general corporate guilt. The Israelites swore that they and their children would serve God. There would be blessings if they did, and cursing's if they didn't. Even for Israel, Ezekiel makes it plain the sins of the father are separate from the sins of the son. For a so called Biblical scholar you are either ignorant or disingenuous. You cannot conflate God's chosen people to a secular society.
But if you really believe in corporate guilt, then look to Africa, where their own race sold them into slavery.
This is so warped. If one must repent for having ancestors who lived in a culture and participated in that culture that was sinful, then Christ, a Palestinian Jew, living in times of oppression, while doing nothing to free anyone from that oppression, must repent. He can say he hates CRT all he wants, but he just hates the secular name. It's denial.
He's warping original sin with personal sins. We are all guilty of original sin and our unfaithfulness, and that is impartial to ethnicity and culture. Personal sins are on the sinner, not of anyone else. Jeremiah 31 is flat out against this entire "sermon".
As long as you ( Israel ), allow them to teach you. You will always worship them and not God.
What are you assuming is the lesson from that verse as it relates to this talk?
I agree with what pastor Tim has to say in terms of the different corporations you belong to; however, I want to be clear that “white” is not a group. It’s just a skin tone. What do I have to do with white people in Germany? Nothing.
Now, if you’re Southern Baptist and the denomination does something terrible, well, that reflects on you and you should play a role in corporate repentance, but if the Methodist do something terrible you have nothing to repent for. You’re not in that group.
It’s amazing to me that most of the racial controversy today is driven by the Democratic Party. Has the Democratic Party repented of their racist past? It was southern Democrats that owned slaves. It was northern Republicans that died to set black men free. What party was Lincoln? Republican. What party did the first black senators and representatives belong to? Republican.
But somehow the Democrats have convinced the masses that the opposite is true. They are up to the same shameful acts as they were during slavery; they use black people for political power. They slaughter infants in the womb for the sake of convenience under the guise of a minorities right.
This is the difference between God ordained “ethnic groups” and human constructed “race”.
If you don't think "white" is a group, Is "black" a group? Do you think that black people have the same experience that you do? Are you denying the existence of race and therefore racism altogether? or only denying that white is a race?
Ryanne Caldwell I’m saying there is such think as racism, but I’m saying it’s a devilish construction we shouldn’t adhere too. There is no one “black experience”, everyone within communities have different experiences in life.
One skin color does not equal one group. That is highly simplistic and is a failure to see God’s diversity. Nigerians are not the same peoples and Algerians or Tanzanians.
They speak different languages with different customs and cultures, so it is with many Africans, black Americans, and Caribbean Americans who have black skin. If we think of one experience when we see skin color, we are making assumptions without getting to know people. If we assume all blacks are oppressed, that’s a problem... if we think all white people are racist by virtue of seeing their skin and assuming their experience... that is also, racism.
Ryanne Caldwell people think that racism is almost exclusively a white thing today... that’s is a lie from Satan, my friend.
Ryanne Caldwell, ty for the response. When I say "group" I'm talking about people with shared values. Not all people with black skin believe the same things. It would actually be racist to say that all black people or all white people have the same experiances.
Racism is definitely real, and if you find yourself attributing a value or ideology to all people of a particular skin color you have certainly committed racism. So, even using a term like "the black experience" makes me hesitant. It would seem to say that all black people have the same experience, and that cannot be true.
I think that Keller is correct on the corporate/individual issue, we should recognize that we are part of ethnic groups or nations as they are called in the Bible and we have responsibilities to our nation as well as to other nations who live amongst us. Most of the systemic racism these days in the USA is aimed at whites more than any other group. Universities and government intentionally discrminate against whites to favor other groups, especially white males. How long should whites intentionally disfavor their own children, so that other groups' children can take their places in society. That is not justice.
This is so worldly it's insane..
I'm proud to be white I'll say it
Keller's exegesis of the story of Achon is handwaving with no substance. It doesn't stand up to basic scrutiny of the text or application of his own logic.
Let's assume Keller is right and that a person's sin is a product of their family/community. Keller argues that if you are evil or have done something evil, your parents and community are partially culpable because they "produced you directly or failed to keep you from becoming that". But who dies in Joshua 7/who is held responsible? Was it anyone in the community? Was it his parents? No. "And Joshua and all Israel with him took Achon the son of Zerah, and the silver and the cloak and the bar of gold , and his sons and daughters and his oxen and donkeys and sheep and his tent and all that he had." What happened does not stand the test of his own logic.
The story of Achon is the story of how your sin affects others. It is a warning of the devastation of sin can bring. Achon's sin led to the loss of a battle and lives of other Israelites. Achon's sin led to the loss of his life and the life of his family. Your sin can do the same. It is a lesson we desperately need to learn today.
7:42 I disagree with Tim's statement: The Apostle Paul implying "you are responsible and you are condemned for what your ancestors Adam and Eve did."... I want to make plain that there are many in this world that detest our faith because of this interpretation, which would be ok if it were truth, there are many that detest even Jesus Christ. But, everyone seems to skip the last words in Romans 5:12 12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men[e] because all sinned. Because all sinned. Death spread because all sinned. Yes sin came in through Adam, but it was because all sinned that all died. This seems to say it is not the sin of Adam that condemns me, but the sin that I sinned that condemned me. - Jesus was a part of the human race and yet was not condemned, because he had no sin
It's true that we are condemned by our own sin, but while Adam had the choice to sin or not to sin, his choice determined that we would not have that same option. We are unable to not sin because of Adam, so we are all born sinning and condemned.
@@treyb2608 I agree with what you said Trey, but that’s not what Tim said. Go back and listen from 7 min. Tim is saying we are “responsible and you are condemned for something you didn’t individually do”..that’s not true. It may seem like splitting hairs but many find reason to validly resist the faith because of that theology :/
Why not detest your christ? You yourselves are part of a racist system and you refuse to look at your own racism, and you are the ones who claim that you are the body of christ.
And when we say that we are against racism, you say that anti-racism is code for anti-white.
What's there to love about Jesus in that? Jesus is detestable and despicable, and evil.
We didn't make him that way, that's just how he is.
@@barzinlotfabadi You know not of what you speak of
Such an abuse of Joshua 7 here. Keller strips it completely of the power of God in search of some temporal moral imperative.
At the center of Achan’s sin was a distain for the salvation and provision of God. The “plunder” as Keller calls it essentially represents the tree of the knowledge of good and evil of Genesis. Achan’s sin and punishment mirrors Adam and Eves; covetous unbelief, idolatry and death to God.
In divesting Joshua 7 of it’s spiritual significance (that is as it relates to God) and putting a temporal moral significance at the heart of Joshua 7, Keller commits the exact sin of Achan, “plundering” the glory that belongs to God in His provision of eternal salvation and justice - putting in its place the idol of racial reconciliation. This amounts to the extra biblical moralizing (traditions of men) that ultimately blinded National Israel to who God was and why they ultimately rejected His Christ.
This is another gospel.
This guy needs to back up some of these claims. He explain what he means so clearly but doesn't explain if or why it's the correct way of thinking.
Postiez It’ll make more sense just read Joshua 7, Daniel 9 and Romans 5. Remember we didn’t achieve salvation. The gospel has a way of helping us think corporately not just individually.
He started off by saying that he is speaking on corporate responsibility or systemic evil... That is a part of discussing racism not the whole.
The issue is not corporate responsibility (although there are some huge differences between Adam and the ancestor of some white guy). The issue is the specifics--what we are being asked to believe and what we are being asked to do. We are being asked to believe a story about systems of oppression that is a lie. We are being asked to accept and help usher in a conception of justice that is about equality. Here's another way of putting it: The Bible says, "learn to do good; seek justice." Yes, what are those things in our context? Because I think what people like Tim Keller are telling us they are is wrong.
Praying that you hear what Tim is saying..
@@rebeccanamposya8908 Sincerely, Rebecca, can you be more specific? I'm being honest, I have tried to see things from their perspectives, but the more I think about it, the more unconvinced I am. Please, help me understand. We can pick one thing: Dr. Keller was saying that inequalities are injustices (he said, "if the result is unjust, it is unjust.") How is that a coherent or biblical view of justice?
@@joelebert9767 Thank you for your response. I can not recall what was on my mind then. As a woman of colour this issue has perplexed me since only people of colour continue to be downtrodden to date, despite not having chosen the colour of their skin. Unfortunately, I am just a simpleton that can not coherently supply the biblical view of justice. You need not be convinced... judgement day is coming soon, we will all find out then,. Be blessed.
Ecclesiasticus 12:10-, never trust thine enemy
The Lord Chist commanded us to love your enemy and pray for those who persecute you. No other choices!
Sorry but no. “I won’t be held accountable for the hell of the past, I don’t owe a penny or dime, to amend for there crimes. Don’t you see, you’re illsuioned and apologizing for events you had no part in, it’s a mass delusion.” You, Are You, by BackWordz. I urge y’all to listen
Well then what are you gonna do about the hell of the present?
This is VERY helpful in such a time as this!
good job tim keller you saved your face. the social justice cartel will leave you alone for now..
All Things New 😂😂 💯
Social Justice is my first thought, which is wrong and this is teaching from the old testament. When Jesus came he gave us all new rules and only those are how we are to live. Totally disagree with this.
What the Bible says is pretty simple. You're part of the problem. No wonder non Christians don't take us seriously.
Educate us, what are those "new" rules? Jesus came to fulfill the old testament laws.
Im in Birmingham Alabama framed as terrorist , being government stalked and placed in trauma base program
Hello Tamika. I can't imagine what you might be experiencing. Could you please tell me what is going on from where you are?
So what if you are White and your family never had slaves, wasn't involved with segregation, If I my family wasn't part of that culture do I still have to apologize for a culture that was never attached to me although I am white? Is the color of your skin your culture? I am directly related to Abraham Lincoln do I need to apologize? sounds like white guilt. and with car sales how do you know who gets a deal or not by race and gender unless you keep a record of it? This doesn't sound racist it sounds like parents need to raise their children to negotiate better. I do business with tons of people but I pay zero attention to what color or gender they are when we discuss price, This is basically saying force yourself to apologize for no reason force give people affirmative action. In life we are equal and the more we give special hand outs the worse off the people are who get the handouts.
This is BRILLIANT!!!! Tim Keller, thank you for explaining things so beautifully!
I can't wait the day that racism ends. It hurts me so very much so very very much. It's so divided between whites and minorities. Me as a black male burns so passionately to see TRUE UNITY especially in the body but the world. I even made an effort to make that my dream for Heaven. Amen Jesus.
5:40 he is absolutely right!
It is going to end when we all get to heaven. If the Church is not ready to address it, who will? CNN?
@@bellapreny3175 Unfortunately, in my opinion, CNN may well address it before it ever gets on CBN and when CBN does, it will all go back to individualism and God working through communities will not be discussed at all, which makes me very sad. It's all about me me me and my personal relationship with Jesus in conservative evangelical Christianity, like the mainstream of American society :-( Well, not totally, but the great majority of it.
As an Asian living in America, I find the self-blame/shifting responsibility culture that is prevalent in the country today a little uncomfortable. Black people are just as racist as white people and asians are no better. Putting the onus on primarily white people for the troubles of society is rather unfair and I don't feel it helps with the racial divide in the country, as if other minority ethnicity don't have just as important part to play to alleviate inequality. Racism still exists of course, and because white people are the majority in society, you'll see more instances where white people engage in racist activities. This does not mean all white people are racist though and should be treated as what it is, individual instances of racism.
There must be less distinction on collectivism and more emphasis on our individual identity and I hope at the very least, my fellow brothers and sisters in Christ can put their identity as followers of Christ above their skin color and become the leading example for the rest of society in race relations.
From what I can gather, Keller is fairly against individualism and thats why you see him push towards corporate guilt/sin and seeking to address society problems in terms of demographic groups. I am not sure why and to me it seems so far from the main message of the bible. Father and son are not guilty of each others sins nor are we guilty of anyone else's but Keller tries to paint a much different picture. That if you are part of society in any way and there is some demographic not as well off as they should be, then you are partially responsible. It muddies the line between good and evil if we are guilty of everything.
Yep 👍🏻
touchoflight12 unfortunately racism for blacks result in death when unarmed by cops and they are found not guilty, poor school systems, unfair laws that aim at giving black ppl longer sentences and other evils out of our control. I wish it was that simple but in this country it’s not.
Everyone experiences racism but not everyone deals with the level of mistrustment that black do. I would recommend you watch the movie 13, research stuff like redlining and black Wall Street to get a better understanding.
@@Josh.1234 He is breaking down the reality of systemic racism which is just a more sophisticated way to be racist for those that are unaware it exist, which usually are the ppl that it isn't against.
If you can believe poor people have been disenfranchised, you can believe it is happening to a people group. People are sinful and can construct ways to be sinful that aren't obvious. They do it through laws and practices. Individual people can create systems, procedures, laws that are racist.
There were sinful people that made up the government of the day against Jesus, they conspired against him. It's possible.
@@zakiasimpson8928 There is currently no governmental systemic racism (there was and thats gone and now there is actually racism in the other direction with affirmative action). Just because a policy seemingly hurts a demographic, doesn't mean its racist or even wrong (imprisoning drug users maintains civil society, we can't help certain groups won't abide by the law). Justice and a fair society is based on long standing judeo christian morality that up until the 60s was widely agreed on. Now relativism and identity politics rule the day.
Keller makes the case numerous times in his different speeches that even if you aren't racist, being part of a demographic like white men in the south makes you guilty.. this is antithetical to the Bible. Each man is guilty of his own sins. This is textbook identity politics, I am guilty for my inter-sectional group. Look to Thomas Sowell or Voddie Baucham for rational views on the situation.
When society and in particular black society is ready to take a hard look at their familial, moral and violence problems, then we might actually be in a place to reconcile. But as it stands today, black or white Christians should not embrace the 70% born out of wedlock rates or the disproportionate abortions in this community (and no there is no reason to abort your child). These are destroying the next generation of black children who deserve better