ARE BIKE PRICES THE REASON FOR THE BICYCLE INDUSTRY FAILING??
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- Опубліковано 26 жов 2023
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Im honestly curious if everyone remembers these prices, or if alot of people who are unaware of it because maybe they are new to the sport, but this sport has always been very expensive... the entry level stuff still was $600-700 for a nice bike with real crap components, and now they are 1000 I know that is a lot of money but compared to what it was and for what you got its not that bad, I really just think ALL of us are experiencing a little less spending and being more aware of what we are spending our money on in todays day and age. So with that being said and all these big name people having massive amount of inventory and bills coming do, that is the issue, there is no more demand
@user-ni1cn8hz5d
We live in times when entry Honda Rebel 300 (2024) costs $ 4,849 Canadian Dollars
and entry endurance Cervelo Caledonia 105 mechanical (2023) cost $ 4,300 Canadian Dollars
The bicycle industry is as overpriced as ever before.
@@rmb_devthe Caledonia is $4700 USD on their website but is 105 Di2, not mechanical.
Besides, Honda has revenue streams from all their other departments -- cars -- to subsidize the cost of their motorbike. Same can't be said about bicycles, which are specialized products by comparison.
Apples to oranges.
@@rmb_devHowever, if you actually think about how you spend the money, you could probably get a hand-built (in Canada) custom Road-Bike steel frame, fully assembled (with price-conscious components) for the same amount. Cervelo is a ridiculously overpriced brand.
@@rmb_dev MSRP on a 2013 Rebel was around $4200 US. Now is around $4700 US. They pattern the same. You can argue that a bicycle shouldn't cost as must as a motorbike. You'd be misinformed, as there's a slew of things going into reducing the cost of that Rebel. But you could argue it. What you can't argue is that the disparity is worse now than 10 years ago. They track the same.
I think at the moment everybody is watching every cent. I'm in the market for a new MTB but at this time i would honestly take a base model over a comp Epic evo for example for save a few hundred dollars. I know it makes no logical sense but when money is this tight four or five hundred dollars is a couple of weeks food shopping for the family. Another point is that Specialized for example used to do M5 Epics, they were a good entry price point and meant that you could get the tech for a good deal cheaper than the carbon models. I think that Specialized should look at this again. Giant also did an Alloy anthem for a really good price point. Now gone, and you are left with a 5K bike as an entry point. They need to look at this i think...
If a full on motorcycle is less expensive than a mid tier road bike, prices are just ridiculous.
If a full on car is less expensive than a mid tier motorcycle, prices are just ridiculous.
Same energy.
@@LeConcertoCompletely different things man.
Yamaha's annual turnover: $16 billion. Specialized's annual turnover: $500 million. You're comparing apples and oranges
@@TheCountrySteve Did you just use Yamaha Moto's total revenue to make an argument? Yamaha Moto who not only make many other things (bikes being a share of the 16) but also build their own components for their own bikes, bikes which need to be compliant with laws across the world, whilst Spec is just a glorified bike assembler who's biggest goodwill item is their S-Works stickers? I can sense a strong smell of brainwash.
@@keinpietz7697 I'm saying the scale of the two industries is so vastly different that comparing the two is irrelevant. What you're saying only emphasises that
I was talking about this years ago right after COVID. They took advantage of people and now they're going to pay for it. There's no way that $3,000 in Chinese/Taiwanese manufactured parts should cost $12,000.
The whole idea of companies moving production to China was to bring the costs down, so we were told. How has that worked out for the consumer?
human greed :)
gonna wait for next year when bike prices crash before buying new
yep companies didnt know to when they had ot turn off the "flow"
Couldn't agree more.
This is why will always first look for a bike built by someone in my country or otherwise not outsourced.
Mid tier is the problem, used to get a carbon ultegra bike for under $3000
I paid $2500 for a 2013 Trek Madone with 105. Now a carbon 105 bike is $6000… maybe the high level bikes haven’t changed much but the lower tier bikes have skyrocketed!!! Insane.
Canyon Endurace CF 7 with 105 di2 is $2400. There are carbon frames with 105s everywhere for under $3,000. What am I missing?
Bike manufacturers are shooting themselves in the foot. They are turning off/away the new entry level rider. Let the market collapse (thank the manufacturers' greed) so that what's left will have to be discounted.
The one thing I hate is the price of entry level/mid tier bikes. I'm all fine with super high end elite stuff that's priced super high, but if you want to get an entry level emonda sl5 in Canada it's going to be around $4500 plus a helmet, bibs, jersey, pedals, shoes, cages, etc you are looking at $5500 to be a recreation rider.
Lol, Emonda SL5 is absolutely not entry level. If I were a new rider, I would get the ALR5 or anything from Canyon.
It's the cheapest carbon road bike made by Trek, which I would argue is an entry level carbon bike and maybe mid tier overall. A lot of riders who have an aluminum bike who want to get more slightly more serious without trying to break the bank would have to consider something like this to be an entry level carbon bike. The cheapest canyon ultimate is $3600 CAD plus tax and duties which is about $650 so $4250 plus all the accompanying gear. My point is that a entry level carbon bike with 105 is still a large amount of money to ride a relatively simple machine for fun. Sure you can get heavier alloy bikes, but if you are wanting to get into cycling as an enthusiast it comes with a beefy price tag.@@LeConcerto
Trek makes excellent alloy frames - certainly comparable to base level carbon.
A high spec alloy frame might be the best play for you - don’t automatically discount it
105 used to be US$500. Now 105 is US$1500, lol.
You can still get mechanical 105 groupsets for $500 and hydraulic for 600-700
Di2 didn’t exist till recent
It's cheaper to make electronic derailleurs and shifters than mechanical.@@Yeahwhatdoesthatmean
It’s funny because in 2012 those high end bikes and wheels were waaay overpriced back then anyway. So if the argument goes that the price increases are small between then and now, well the relative starting point was inflated to begin with!
lol, I was thinking the same thing!
His gonna try justify the prices as he sell them please there over priced.
Bikes are “wants” not “needs”. All the “needs” got expensive in the last 2 years so the “wants” are taking a back seat. It’s very simple
I recently bought a frame and components and built up a bike at home so I became familiar with many prices. What I can’t get over is the disconnect in some brands between what it would cost to DIY a build and what the complete bike retails for. Some of these bikes are thousands more than the sum of their parts. It’s especially obvious when you can get a frame or groupset on sale like I did.
I would love to see specialized cost per sl8 report, they get huge discounts in each 3th party component, they produce and design their stuff, a 12r frame costs thme 500usd to make, clx another 500 they buy dura ace for less than 2k, you buy an sl8 for 14k, when they build them for 5k at most, you can't say oh the marketing and R&D costs 9kusd
@@bernardo9202 great example. There are so many more especially at the top end where profit margins must be very high.
@@bernardo9202 Yeah, plus I did all their R&D for them, and came to this conclusion: SL8 sucks bring back the Venge.
Funny, they still haven't paid me 🤣
Your on the money here. Want an sworks without paying the crazy price? Buy a frameset and build it yourself - it’ll be way cheaper and you can choose the components to fit you. On the stock tarmac the bars are too wide for me, the cranks too long and the stem too short.
Trek Emonda SLR 9 AXS could build with lighter stuff and only spend £9k instead of the £12k, I went Trek Emonda ALR as looks like build be 7.2kg but as wanted aluminium frame so feel safer when lock up, thru axle and more aero bike with still round seatpost as I want to be able to swap to the axs dropper
It does not matter that everything is going up.
Bike prices are going up but they have were overpriced in the first place.
You can go on holiday and buy a motorcycle for the prices of one bicycle.
I think the problem is especially apparent with road bikes. High end Mountainbikes are far better value for money than road bikes. When you consider the complexity of a Mountainbike with all the links, bearings, dropper post and shock/suspension fork, they're way more expensive to put together, even if all other components are the same. Yet, I've never really seen an MTB with say, XX1 AXS be more expensive than a roadbike with Red AXS. It's always the other way around. So at this point I'm concluding that brands know that roadies are willing to spend more than mountainbikers and hence charge them more.
Prices in the industry are ridiculous.
A lot more affluent 50-60 year old dudes riding club rides versus mountain biking, for sure.
99% of the “plastic” bikes are made in china for peanuts and sold around the world at insane prices!
Not really, even a full Chinese carbon bike is gonna run you at least $2K w/zero warranty or support. You also dont have to buy a $15K TdF special
@@future62 Buying directly from Chinese brands will be the future. If you crash western frameset you max gonna get 35% off another frame set. I can buy like 5 chinese brand framesets for the price of 1 western brand frameset. It just makes sense. Unless you go for 3t, Look or Time framesets, why wouldn't you buy directly from china. Even the budget frameset use EPS molding now.
@@future62 some Chinese brands you do have warranty. Also for the big brands, depending on the damage, you don’t get a replacement frame either.
@@future62a Chinese frame set is like $600
Some of my regular grocery items have gone up 50% in the last two years. If my wage had done the same, i would be on a shiny new bike now! 😂
Everything you say is true; the "discontentment" and aversion to buying a new top end bike is these bikes you have shown from 2013 are functionally identical to current top end bikes for 99% of the market. The minor differences in breaking and aero gains, don't matter to anyone outside of ppl actively making money riding a bike (no one), and they are harder to work on and heavier. If brands and Shimano had just kept those designs around and just gotten better at manufacturing the prices would be significantly less than what is currently offered and would be a much more appealing performance to cost alternative.
If you're comparing 2013 to now and calling the cumulative differences in braking/aero "minor," I hard disagree with you.
I rebuilt my old carbon rim brake bike with R7000 so yes, it's much easier to work on.
However, braking is absolutely not as good as hydro discs. Also, it struggles to top 35mph when descending, while my modern bike hits 40mph+ coasting.
I don't actively make money riding a bike, but it absolutely matters to me because the modern bike is way more fun to ride.
Weight difference is 250g, price difference is $3000 but that's new vs used.
@@LeConcertoLOL a rim brake TDF level bike is faster than a bike today, the only difference is tire tech, you are delusional if you think otherwise
@@LeConcerto A dollar bill weighs about a gram so that's a total of 3250 grams weight savings!
The frames are made in Asia for pennies on the dollar, and Shite-mono is made in Asia for pennies on the dollar, so even way back then, there was gouging.
I remember paying $1800 for a new Trek 5200 OCLV in 1995 with an Ultegra groupset. Those days are long gone.
Yeah lol. That is $3500 adjusted for inflation today. I got my Ultegra bike for $2500 in 2023. what’s your point?
It's all too expensive mate...they think we're idiots😂😂😅
Credit used to be cheap, so, the bike industry inflated bike prices and got away with it. Consumers took the bait and it became the norm for people to go into hock for years just to buy a reasonable race bike. The cheap credit days are over, and the industry/dealers will now be eaten their own greed. You are WRONG when you say prices have not changed. Cheap credit was the difference. It's not anymore. Bike industry and dealers are now having to change with current credit prices, or they and their dealers will perish. Now manufacturers are cutting out their dealers in a typically greedy, cut throat move.
The price of credit is nothing to do with prices. Did you not actually watch this video?
Top end bikes are a small % of the bike industry and I’m not sure why there is this fixation with top end prices from people who don’t buy top end bikes!
Dom, you are clueless when it comes to economics. AND, I’m talking at least as much about what are now called “mid-range” bikes as I am top end. Take a class, then comment. You are being played.
Cheap credit does Not explain the prices. Especially when you consider the international market.
@@katomiler843the problem is when people take classes and then make dumb comments like yours 😂
use cash then
Electronics used to be super expensive also. This tech needed to make all carbon bikes has gotten way more efficient and cost effective. The price should be going down not up.
His whole video explained that
It feels like its more expensive, but I think if it's failing it's more to do with the fact that wages aren't going up at the same rate as inflation, so people just don't have the same disposable income as they did 10 years ago. Which makes top tier bikes more out of reach, even they were the same price they were 10 years ago.
That’s been true since the 80’s wages have remained relatively flat when inflation is taken into account since then.
Even MINIMUM wage has doubled in 10 years, from $7.50/hr to $15/hr in most States.
It's just total nonsense that people say wages are not going up at the same rate. Companies REACT to wage rate increases, not the other way around. That's why we get inflation cycles, until some smart politician and economist wise up and put a halt to the cycle.
@@craig8638 Even MINIMUM wage has doubled in 10 years, from $7.50/hr to $15/hr in most States.
It's just total nonsense that people say wages are not going up at the same rate. Companies REACT to wage rate increases, not the other way around. That's why we get inflation cycles, until some smart politician and economist wise up and put a halt to the cycle.
@@rayrussell6258You obviously don't live in Australia. Wages haven't increased at the rate of inflation here.
@@mikekelly1771 yes they have increased at same rate, but the thing is ... everywhere in the world, wages go up first, then prices. So wages will always ALWAYS end up just behind prices after the changes. It's no different in Australia than anywhere else. Businesses don't need to push prices higher first, that would DECREASE DEMAND, and their income would fall! But if wages spiral up, they will increase prices to stay ahead in the spiral.
Inflation helps governments pay off their deficit spending, so they can start spending again. That's the only reason these spirals happen.
People should demand no inflation or deflation as economic policy, and if people want higher earnings they must move to a different job that requires higher skill to get more pay.
Due to social media (and sponsored influencers), I think there's greater visibility and expectations to keep up with the top tier in order to fit in, look the part, etc. So, typical enthusiasts are more aware of and feel greater pressure to spend at the top end of the spectrum. 'Just' carbon frame and wheels with 105 or Ultegra isn't 'enough'.
That's a shame. They should try to fit in with the guy they can't catch at the park, regardless of what he's riding LOL
And when you finally do catch me, you'll notice my bike was only around 2k
@@mmurmurjohnson2368 For real. Among riders around my area I notice very little correlation in bike price and speed of the rider. Theres guys killing it riding $2k bikes and theres slowpokes on brand new Pinarellos.
@@mmurmurjohnson2368lol man that hurts! But your right, I get smoked by old guys on 8 speed vintage bikes. It’s never about the bike in terms of performance and I like many others was suckered into “expensive means fast” marketing bull. Learning my lesson when I bought my next bike I spent even more money but went custom titanium. It’s slower and heavier but fits me great and comfortable. Timeless design and durable. When you go north of 4K, try looking for custom builds at the end of the price range.
I’m not paying anything over 4K unless it’s customizable to my needs.
I would never buy a high end bike because of an influencer, or as they should be known ' advertising bitch'.
Look at it this way, a 2015 Tarmac S-Works MSRP was $9500. A new SL8 S-Works (basic paint) is $14000. That’s a price hike of $500 a year. That’s crazy to me. And let’s not forget the discounts that were offered back then as opposed to now.
If you want to make it an apples to apples comparison, $9500 in 2015 is $12,336 today adjusted for inflation.
I think that's Grant's point. You're paying $1664 ($14000-12336) for Di2, internal cabling, disc brakes, tons of wind tunnel testing.
But let's be honest, were you in the market for an S-works in 2015? Are you even in the market for one now?
@@LeConcerto "You're paying (...) for Di2, internal cabling, disc brakes, tons of wind tunnel testing"
A 2015 Tarmac S-Works had all of this, apart from disc brakes, which are downgrade. And you were able to get a healthy discount back then, since even those who could afford had enough brain cells which weren't destroyed by grifters and FOMO combined with YOLO to understand that the 9500 was just a starting point for haggling.
@@keinpietz7697 Im not in the market for S-Works bikes, but as far as I can tell, the 2015 model came with exposed dura ace mechanical rim brake cables, or hydro Di2, but not Di2 rim.
Since I'm not in the market for S-Works bikes, idk if you can or cannot haggle with prices nowadays. I would think that since Specialized has an idiotic practice where MSRP is higher than the sum of the bike's parts, there's room to negotiate.
@@LeConcerto oh I can definitely tell your not in the market for an S-Works. You’ll be lucky to get 10% off nowadays, if you can find one or at least the color you want.
@@LeConcerto the cables were internal, except obviously for the rim brake cables.
I've never considered the top tier bikes as a realistic option, and haven't really wanted them because I believe the price-to-performance ratio for them is terrible. I try to find sweetspot price-to-performance bikes. Bearing all that in mind, I've still perceived an incredible increase in bike prices. Now, whether this is all in my head or not I can't say, and I'm not suggesting it's greed or whatever, I'm just not sure how to explain it.
I've literally out ran just about every bike I can't afford on a 2k rig and on rigs much cheaper, so can attest you can buy comparable speed for well under 2k, at a certain price point your paying for acutraments and a rig that slightly compensates for a lack of skill.
I like 15k bikes like the next guy, but all truth is revealed on the road
Manufacturers' greed. I am guessing a greater profit margin just like with high end cars. If you are a manufacturer you want those fanatics with deep pockets that will buy the latest & greatest at any cost. The amazing part that no one seems to talk about is carbon fiber is not immune to stress degradation. It also cannot take a crash or a good hit. Plastic is also made from CARBON.
The bike Industry have shot themselves in the foot by hiking prices to extortionate levels. They deserve to go bust. Greedy shareholders milking it until it dry.
I purchased a top tier road bike about 8 months ago with no expense spared (I sold a bunch of stuff and had some cash to burn) and my observation is that although I do love the bike and don’t regret the purchase, I definitely do not need a bike of this caliber to beat up riding hard 3 days a week. I could have purchased one a few tiers down and had a similar riding experience. If I ever make another purchase I would get a nice frame with Ultegra instead of Dura Ace and other more affordable components. Still pricey but I think the price could easily be brought down to half of the top tier models. I also think some of the Chinese brands like Winspace are becoming much more appealing
Love my ultegra. Guys I fly past on their Dura-Ace, not so much😢
Not only are bike prices too high, but bikes are durable items. People don't need replacements unless they break or outgrow them. If they were cheaper, people may be inclined to replace them more often. Yes, inflation is high, but why would a bicycle cost more than a motorcycle or a used car?
The problem with the cycling industry today is that it lacks appeal and affordability for young people, who are in a much more precarious financial position than at any other time in living memory. Our cities have also critically underfunded cycling infrastructure for a long time now. With population growth and increasing traffic, the lack of safe and enjoyable places to ride is a big factor. All of my bike routes have been ruined over time by sprawling development in the multiple places I've lived.
My first bike was a trash beat up aluminum bike used for $400, that’s with my dad owning a bike shop. There are plenty of affordable bikes on the market. They might not look the best or have the best components but price is really not the issue here. It’s just people want nice things for there budget and always want more then what they can afford. I see if everyday in my store. A perfect $1000 entry level road bike but they don’t want it because it doesn’t look cool or have that wow factor
@@GCPerformance18 My first bike was a POS $450 bike too (in the mid 2000s)! To me, the difference from back then was that I actually had good places to ride it--even routes starting from my house. Where I live now in the Triangle area of NC, the no-longer-rural roads have zero shoulder and tons of traffic. Same thing with places I used to ride in Austin. I have basically stopped riding since an incident near my house when a car behind me tried to go around me and hit the car right in front of me. I realized then that cycling is too dangerous for the amount of traffic and level of infrastructure here. I have ridden multiple centuries and have owned a Roubaix SL1, SL2, SL3, and SL6 (2017), but that was my last bike purchase. I have had little luck in convincing my younger friends to try cycling, even though we do other sports together like hiking, climbing, and kayaking.
@@GCPerformance18 Yeah, I get it, I'm in NY and copped two aero track bikes/single speeds for under 1k, crazy fast out the box, easily upgradable, and are both head turners, no one's excited to ride a wack rig, entry level or otherwise, full stop.
An affordable gateway drug is crucial to attract potential lifers. If bike manufacturers don't understand that simple fact, then they're done. There's definitely a poetic aesthetic that charms folk into cycling, just like surfing. Nobodies dropping even 1k on a kooky looking bike when they clearly see that smoking hot Madone they can't afford sitting right beside it LOL, making it look even kookier
Maybe the comments weren’t specific enough “bike prices have been damn high for way to long” when you can buy a decent, even good, motorcycle for the same price the argument is completely lost
Grant, I think you explained it perfectly when it comes to inflation-adjustments, halo products, and the advancement of technology in creating true value for us as consumers.
When you talked about Zipp, not only were they the shit, they were basically the only option (price-wise). Now? You can get a very very good set of carbon hoops for $700-1500 in today's dollars.
I appreciate that my $5500 all-in bike with "mid-range" parts would smoke the hell out of a TDF-winning bike 10 years ago, if only I had the legs.
I think the real shame is the push for electronic-only frames.
I would LOVE to buy the Madone SL/SLR and slap on Shimano 105 mechanical, even if i have to use hybrid cable-hydraulic brakes, but I'm hard stopped because the bike doesn't accept mechanical shifting.
Yes, in the long run it could cost more to upgrade parts over time vs buying the upgraded Madone up-front, but i want to experience that journey -- but cannot.
My carbon hoops I buy are £100 and about £500 to build the whole wheelset
The reason prices for bikes and/or group sets is over inflated is because people have foolishly continued to pay it. I still ride a 09 Ti bike with DA 7800, a CAAD 10 with Ultegra 6800, a 14 Velovie with Ultegra 6800 and have no problem keeping up with the $10-15k bikes, it’s hilarious what people are willing to spend thinking they’ll be faster.
Perhaps it’s because a lot of folks buy when there is sale. It feels like there are just less and less discount moments these days. Or that for the “mid tier” bike pricing has went over the perceived common threshold of “expensive”. Taking a wild stab/guess at mindset:
Used to be (6-8 years ago maybe?):
$2k “Seem like a good deal. Is there a sale coming up?”
$3k “I’m adding selective nicer options, but ok. Hope there will be a sale soon.”
$4k “I’m stretching it. Hope there is a sale soon.”
$5k+ “Really stretching, I might as well go for top tier or hope there will be a sale later in the year”
This is exactly how I feel. I have my 2013 Roubaix Expert Ultegra DI2, purchased it in April 2014 on sale, msrp $5100, I bought it for $2800 new. These deals on previous year's models are non-existent it seems. It's a bummer, I can afford a new bike but I don't want to spend 10k plus, or even 8k plus to feel like I've made an improvement.
Great video and respect to you as a bike shop owner for addressing the elephant in the room.
A consideration GC is...a top tier racing bicycle is an 'elective' purchase. People don't have to buy one. When the economy tightens up, people buy fewer 'elective' items. Most don't need a racing bicycle to live their lives but they need money to feed their kids you mention.
What is going on in the bicycle industry can be related to the car industry.
I look at top end bicycle...like a Tarmac SL8 like its a C8 Corvette. When the C8 Corvette came out 4 years ago, if you could get one at all, you would pay $15K over sticker. That ship has now sailed. If one is a car enthusiast and many high end bike owners are....then they understand this dynamic. Now as of today in the last few weeks...some Chevy dealerships excepting the Z06 C8 are charging $3K under sticker for a medium optioned C8 Corvette. That is almost $20K cheaper than what they were selling for 4 years ago...adding in some price bumps by Chevrolet along the way. The government isn't sending stimulus checks to the public any more or not recently. No more free money which has driven demand and high inflation.
So it isn't pure greed and current economy matters a lot. When people are swimming in money they buy a Tarmac Sl8 and then head to the Chevy dealer and order a C8 for sunny weekends because they can afford it. When interest rates go high and people are more nervous about losing their jobs and every visit to the grocery store to feed a family is $300 and the US maybe going into a protracted war, they are less prone to make 'elective' purchases.
The debate about what a cyclist actually 'needs' for a performance bicycle is another conversation. Lots of slow riders buy fast bicycles.
Back in the day (2012ish) shops would give some nice discounts on higher end bikes. I remember seeing so many top tier bikes with 20% to 30% or more off all the time. I got my 2015 BMC TMR01 frameset, brand new for $2200, the original price was I believe $4600. Not sure how prices are now but I dont think they are discounted like they were back in the days.
Also lower end bikes had nice discounts too.
…and bikes aren’t discounted now? 😂
You are absolutely correct. 20% was the norm.
When i started racing and riding in 2017, the best bang for your buck, before you start hitting smaller more minor upgrades/differences, was around 3k. For 3k, you could get a carbon frame, sometimes Di2, often disc brakes, and a good set of aluminum rims. High end aluminum rims like the Roval Alpinist ALX wheels today. Or the Bontrager Paradigm comp 25s. Now, that point has risen to around 5k. Thats a big difference for those newbies wanting a solid, best bang for your buck kind of deal. Thats just how it is. The new point of settlement for most is around 4k, or a little under.
I work in aerospace manufacturing. Bicycle prices are literally identical to some aerospace prices for parts. But we have huge costs associated with regulations and so much more work and time goes into making aerospace parts. Where bicycles are cranked out by the thousands. Even the highest end bicycles are fast and easy to make. There is no justifiable reason for their cost other than foolish people are fooled into paying it.
It's still crazy to me that they added gravel to the Tour de France this year just to help bike manufacturers increase demand for all the overstocked gravel bikes they have. Insane
Good point.
That's one industry helping the other to ensure survival of both.
Grand Tours have always tried to find new stages for the race. The Tour has had plenty of pave stages in the past, and a number of gravel/dirt climbs. Same thing with the Giro. They've also had a number of gravel/dirt roads and even some Strade Bianche roads previously.
@@homeimagingexperts2255 TBH I could care less if either survives. TDF is boring and the rest is BS.
@@charlesmansplainingtdf isn't boring
2023 Yamaha MT-09
MSRP $11,899.00
Vs
S-Works Tarmac SL8 - Shimano Dura-Ace Di2
$17,999.00
These are Canadian prices, but tell me the manufacturing process is more on a bicycle. It’s corporate greed.
2023 Yamaha MT-09
MSRP $11,899.00
vs.
Rolex $12,000?? does this make sense?
2023 Yamaha MT-09
MSRP $11,899.00
vs
louis vuitton luggage set $6000
prices dont make sense. and also I am sure yamaha makes a top tier version of that bike that is 30,000 as well
there are plenty of companies out there that makes prodcuts that they dont add up to the dollar value
I think what you’re missing is that prices have been way too high since before you worked in a bike shop. You’re comparing old outrageous prices to new outrageous prices. The bike Lance Armstrong won the TdF on in 2000 (Trek 5500) retailed for $3800. Minimum wage was $6. So you work for 633 hours to afford it. Today they’re $15K and min wage is $15. So you work 1000 hours to afford one. That’s DuraAce bikes. An ultegra bike in 2000 was $2K. To make the point further, a Trek 5500 was $3100 in 1992. Used, these bikes go for around 700-800. A used 2014 SWorks bike that was 10-12K new sells for $1000. I have over 35 years experience and have watched the bike industry implode. Kids aren’t looking to get into cycling because it’s more expensive than getting into motocross bikes. A pro level Honda 450 motorcycle is $10K new. The bike industry has gone insane. End rant
Just to add another comparison, a 1995 Honda CR250 cost $5000. So in 28 years the price has doubled (2X more) Compared to going from a 1995 5500 at $3500 to today they’re $15K, or 5X more.
Good video, it always helps to step back and put the moment into perspective.
Great video. I kinda forgot the top groupsets were always super expensive and decent wheels were always crazy expensive too. On the other hand back in 2020 a Look Blade RS frame-set was around 3300 euros, for example. Now just 3 years later its ~5300 euros. Imho it's not just inflation, its more about what the market will bear. Just as its always been.
You are backing the industry. You are comparing prices of 10k bikes then and now. WTF? The majority of riders are not buying those bikes. A bike in 2012 that cost $3000 now sells for $6000. That is way too much of a price increase. Those bicycle manufacturers can just keep them.
And hey, $2000 for a set of wheels in 2012 was an insane price. I bought a Suzuki DRX400S Enduro for $2900. Wheel prices are stupid high. I guess people have totally lost sight of what things should cost.
Just some math in general. Top tier bikes and what it offered, then vs. now, is inconsequential. Technology always moves forward. That being said, most of the increases I prices you mentioned come to 2.7% inflation/yr. This is definitely under the average U.S. inflation rate of 3.28%/yr. Obviously, some years are worse than others as to inflation, but that is the average. So, the industry is not overinflated, but I wouldn't have spent that much for a bicycle then, and still won't now.
Everything became more expensive, but not the bikes that skyrocketed compared to other goods!
A bike I wanted to buy cost over 4k in 2021 and now it's over 6k!!! Do you know how it can be justified??
Only the greed of manufacturers can explain that.
Cars, motorbikes, electronics etc. don't increase their prices by over 30%
P.S. It's interesting how you compare a top-notch bike (Specialized) that is 12 years old to a mid-tier bike (Trek) with a low-tier electronic groupset these days that still costs $1,800 more ))
P.P.S. Sad to see the industry stagnation over the big brand's greediness.
I bought a Scott Foil RC Dics in 2019. That was Scott’s second from top tear bike (dura ace) for £6500. The same bike now Scott second from top tear is £10500. Explain that.
Call this bullshit as you want but explain how come push bike prices went up in last 3-5 years 50-70% where price for more advanced motorbike went up just around 10% in same period ???
I agree with the point you are making, but the argument "look at all that old tech and it was still 10k" misses the point. Those frames and components were top of the line tech back then, of course they look dated now.
A much simpler, and way stronger argument would be an inflation calculator: USD 10000 in 2014 correspond to about USD 12800-13000 in 2023. So todays prices are higher than inflation would suggest, but by a smaller margin than simply comparing 10k vs 15k. And Pinarello was always expensive as hell. 😁
of course, but I mean these companies are in ball park of those numbers, $13,000 is pretty spot on with the inflation of these companies but then you add the inflation of all of our living costs and this is the reason for the feeling like bike prices are ridiculous, housing, food, automobiles have gone up way more then bikes have so this free cash we use to have is affected. making it harder to obtain those top tier bikes.... but housing and cars have gone up way more then bike inflation
I think it's important to keep in mind that money spent on cycling is primarily a discretionary type of spend, whereas expenses such as groceries, mortgages, insurance, education, medical etc are mandatory. Consequently, with the cost of living and the current high escalating rate of it will inevitably impact on reducing spending on discretionary outlays.
In reality there are other sports which don't require the high costs as exist in cycling i.e running.
I suspect that over a generation consumers' spending tastes will move away from cycling. Whether the price of bikes and cycling equipment goes up or down won't really matter. Rather, the reality will be the market share of cycling will dramatically fall.
I'm not sure profit making today is providing a clear insight to manufacturers as to what this may cost over the longer term
I really appreciate this video. It puts it all in perspective doing the comparison from 10 years back. I know i would NOT shell out that kind of money on any of those earlier bikes or components today compared to what’s available at the same price point. I promise, i wont complain after this.
But we will all probably be able to say the same thing in another 10 years. That's the deal with these high end modern bikes, the latest and greatest will only be designated as such for so long.
Sorry , I've been building & riding bikes for 45 years , when you have to get a vehicle loan to buy a $12,000 bike something is wrong , a guy in new Zealand showed a bike with a $ $27k price tag , insane !
thats obviously a question for the consumer to answer whether or not the need to be buying that bike if they need that loan, why not look at abike in there budget.... I could get a vehicle loan for anything now today, hurricane windows, a new computer decked out to everything super nice, a rolex...... we need to be a people hold our selves accountable and buy whats in our budget and be hapy with what we can afford.... becuase the people buying those high price bikes are not financing them, they are paying cash
My 2018 Giant defy advanced 3 cost me 1500. You can’t find carbon fiber under 2k now.
So true. Same with TCR's , i never spent more than 2K for a 105 equipped TCR advanced and never will.
I work in the industry and don't really want to hear anyone pontificate on UA-cam. Bikes are not too expensive. They are actually relatively cheap considering what you get from them. This issue is the brands pushing things that aren't necessary for most riders, carbon, electronic shifting, dropper posts, too much suspension, ultra light weight, new "standards", new categories. Most people want to get from A to B or have a fun ride. You don't need a crazy expensive bike to do that. Consumers are falling into the marketers' hype that they "need" this or that. Just like you don't need an F250 truck if you just drive to work, the grocery store and drop your kids off at school.
this is true, but everyone in my area are nto buying bikes to get from point a to point b, they are riding them to race them to ride group rides fast and to make it a sport out of it... so they see what the pros ride and want to ride that
@@GCPerformance18 In your case where you have performance driven cyclists, then they need top level equipment. You do have to admit, that the majority of riders are on a different level than your customer base. That was my point.
Across the internet everyone talks about high end stuff. How many people buy $14k bike and $3k wheels? 1%? Most realistic bikers care about the $3-4k products. Specialized does not sell a carbon bike for under $2800 and that's with Tiagra. The days of buying a carbon bike for under $2k are long gone. It's no wonder that so many people are looking at Chinese products or buying online.
Did anyone actually pay the RRP back in the day for groupsets? Maybe better discounts back in the day, there was an ebb and flow in the year for pricing.
Thanks for the candid look into the business. I've watched a few of these videos now, and I appreciate how you go into detail about the industry.
I think the big manufacturers got really greedy during the pandemic. They raised prices very dramatically while not really making big improvements in quality, reliability or functionality and that really turned me off. 5-6 years ago, a high end bike with Dura-Ace was maybe $5k, but now it's easily more than double. The middle of the market for enthusiasts has really been squeezed and the industry looks to be serving only the very top end of the market that isn't price sensitive. You are so right about entry level bikes now at $1k, and I also see very little value in the market for bikes in the $2-4k range nowadays; everything there used to be $1000-$1500 pre-pandemic.
The truth is, once you get past $5k for a bike, the manufacturers are thinking, "what's another $500-1000 more?" and before you know it, it becomes a slippery slope and the consumer is now getting close to $10k. The relative percentage change from $2500 to $5000 is 100% more, but from $5000 to $7500 is "only" 50% in the mind of the consumer. So the more the industry levels up pricing, the less the actual perceived price increase is felt by the consumer. When the whole industry is doing this, similar to what's happening in the automotive industry, it's a real problem for everyone.
thank you for watching
I bought a Ridley Fenix carbon full bike in 2015 brand new for $ 1500 with decent Mavic aksium wheels and full sram force 22. It still works flawlessly and is lighter than my just purchased tarmac sl7 comp with 105 di2. I was told I could sale my 8 year old Ridley for $2500. This is more than inflation. But it’s also true that the entry level stuff is way better now than 8 years ago. Problem is the kind of deal I got on the Ridley are nowhere to be found
Top end bikes have always been spendy but the upper low end and lower mid end bikes are where the value isn't there for some brands . It's that the group sets are poorly produced for entry to low enthusiast level
100 percent. there is no mid tier . Everything nice is being pushed to the higher end bike. Mid tier 105 carbon fiber used to be 2500 now its 5k for the same stuff. insane.
I guess people expect technology to improve so it’s hard to compare value between bikes of different ages but I see where you’re coming from. I was riding a rim brake bike with exposed cables, mechanical for 7 years and upgraded to a sworks, di2, disc modern road bike and was absolutely blown away by the difference in performance. It makes such a difference to my enjoyment of riding and I wish I’d changed earlier. It’s interesting to see the comparison of bike prices and I wasn’t what I thought. Covid seems to have inflated the market. Now ‘Post Covid’ with everybody excess stocked and decreased demand these inflated prices may start to come down - case in point would be the new tarmac is 1000 dollars less than the sl7. Cheers for this and your time GC, keep making the great content!!
Great video. I like the fact that you're complimentary toward brands that you don't sell and don't pan them. It's nice to hear impartial views.
It is good to see a bicycle retailer's view of pricing. Bike shops are where we buy our bikes (,new) and getting to hear this side of the story is very informative.
This is a similar topic to the prices of skateboards across the past 40 years. They have stayed basically the same, 40-50 for a deck, 100-120 for a complete. It's really weird that these sort of products just don't inflate a lot. Bikes have gone up a lot though imo, but only in the past 8 or so years.
Great video as always. Inflation is inflation. It’s not just the bicycle industry.
I don’t think it’s the real top end bikes as these are pro level bikes for the few. It’s the next few with ultegra etc for £7-8000 which is crazy. I just don’t see the value of the parts in a full build.
The simple answer is yes, most definitely that is why the second hand market is now exploding cause we tired of being taken for a ride.
I’m still riding my 2007 dura ace road bike it was top tier at $5,000. I love this bike and have put the best rides of my life on it. No new bike until this frame breaks!
Yes and yes.
We sold a bunch in 2008 when i was working at a local trek store. We sold a bunch of cruisers, FX, entry level aluminum with carbon fork road bikes. Lots of 820's...Those things were our bread and butter. Every now and then some CEO or doctor or dentist would come in and drop 5K on the top madone.
Racers who were young weren't getting madones. They were getting the 1200$ aluminum with carbon fork setup. Most people were that raced. I actually didn't know a racer who came in and dropped money on a top madone.
Thinking back, it's because that sort of model is status. You can't BUY speed. At some point, it literally just becomes status. You need to have a bike that is light, stiff, and predictable/reliable with its shifting to be competitive. Which you can get out of a 2K priced bike. So why spend 8K more? It's silly. Remember, Armstrong was moving WAY faster than all of you in 1993 over 160miles and he was on cold rolled steel. Averaged 25mph. I bet 95% of the people reading this can't maintain 23MPH alone for 50miles. And you're on your "super fast bike" that costed 10K...Don't buy into the hype!
Interesting discussion. Two points:
1: You mention inflation as a reason for increased pricing, yet China is experiencing deflation not inflation. 80% of carbon bike frames are manufactured in China therefore frames should be getting cheaper not more expensive?
2: You can purchase a brand new Chevrolet Spark - $14,595, a brand new 2023 Honda Rebel 300 motorbike for $4,749, a jet ski for $1700 or you can buy an S-Works Tarmac for $14000???
Something definitely wrong here irrespective of the prices 5- 6 years ago.
Two wars affecting fuel prices. Those costs go to shipping companies and get passed to consumers. Most bikes and parts are shipped from Asia and trucked to retailers. Also food prices have doubled or tripled in some cases.
i didn't want to agree with you at the start...but you make reasonable and clear points. Great video!
It’s not only the price hike, but also the forced adoption of electronic shifting. It adds at least 500 euro’s on top of the bike. (The most expensive bikes aren’t the only metric as few people ride/can afford a +10.000 bike, personally I’m building a 12 speed bike with hydraulic breaks and mechanical shifting for +2000 euro’s. In line with an ultegra 11 speed in 2010 (curtesy of the LTWOO Chinese groupsets)
Wouldn’t that not be the case in any era? In the 90s, they started pushing aluminum and STI shifting, in the 2000s, they started pushing carbon fiber materials (frame and wheels), 2010s were disc and 10/11+ gearing, and now electronic drivetrains. I’m not necessarily disagreeing with your point, but it’s an ongoing trend of “next best thing” being served to consumers time and time again. I’m sure once they get everyone on board with the UDH standard and direct mount transmissions, auto-shifting will be next, only I think they’ll start that on the lower end first before working up to racers (take this all with a grain of salt).
@@bebopman5 maybe, the problem is all upgrades came as a package deal, most people on a budget want the the 12, can afford the carbon frame and the wheels. If you think away the electronics and do some creative shopping you can get a top of the bill bike for prices of a decennium ago, just without the name brands.
If the established industry wants users to keep using their brands, they should enable the modular upgrade model rather then adding features that are not necessary but nice to have. (Most people upgrade at some point anyway) In other words, the focus on bikes of the highest price is not relevant to the average consummate cyclist. Who buys a bike with Dura Ace?
One problem is the high fractionalization of the market.
30 years ago there were mostly only hardtail MTBs and racing bikes for street racing.
Today, the racing bikes also include gravel bikes, marathon bikes, aero racing bikes as well as disc brakes, electronic gears and gravel gear groups.
This means that the number of individual components or the number of carbon frames that can be manufactured per size is small. There are too few economies of scale.
In the automotive sector, attempts are being made to reduce costs by eliminating models and options. An example here is Tesla.
This is a good point. I guess that’s why they’re pushing “all-in-one” aero/climbing bikes in a consolidation move.
Electronic shifting parts are easier and cheaper to produce than mechanical
So basically people have been ripped off with bike prices for ages
I’ve had good luck buying used. You can let someone else take the 50% depreciation in 2-3 years.
What i dont get is why you can buy the frame, wheels, groupset and cockpit and its cheaper than the factory build.
I agree with you that the absolute numbers that we see at the top-end are shocking and much of the online debate (and opinions) are based on that top-end number only. There have certainly been price increases, the idea of the increases being more than the pace of inflation is due to the anomaly that was the pandemic, that send a huge shock into the industry and rapidly drove-up prices. I do see some manufacturers (Trek, etc.) come back with some very attractive bikes at the mid-range price point. As you pointed out, carbon wheels are one area where prices may have indeed gone down. The expansion of the Chinese brands (some being very good) mean that you can get fabulous carbon wheels for less than ever before. It appears overall that the industry is in a process of correction, unfortunately for some vendors in the supply chain, that won't be a good outcome. Finally, for the top-end bikes (that get all the press), those prices will always be driven by the willingness of the consumer to pay those prices.
The company raises prices because they know people like us will buy it.
I think the main problem is that companies like Shimano and SRAM are abolishing all the "basic" components. For example all the road-groupsets now use the asymmetric 4-bolt chainrings, and Shimano now stopped producing almost all quality rim-brake hubs. Similarly with CUES they will prevent customers from having any compatibility with ultra-cheap 6/7/8 speed third-party components. The high-quality affordable low-/mid-tier bicycle is getting harder and harder to get.
I think much of the perceived price inflation is a result of reducing the affordable model options, and killing rim-brakes. I fully agree with you that apples for apples prices are not unreasonable.
I am kinda worried about this, but it just means more used bike swaps to go to and used bike values go up since their parts work with stuff you already have. Not sure I will take the "CUE" to switch yet.
Also the microshift, box, and chinese groupsets have ground to gain in this area.
On BikeForums nearly twenty years ago posters used to joke about the day their car would be worth more than the bike on top of it.
Fun Fact. The guy that wrote that article for the zipp wheels had them delivered to him to review from me in my Big Brown truck. 😂
really?? thats awesome
Premium bikes and components have always been overpriced. No use comparing to prices from a few years ago, compare to motorbike prices instead and it becomes very difficult to justify.
It comes down to supply and demand in the end. In western world, the demand is falling based on what I can see from youtube and google. Shimano has projected lower earning, you guys have difficulty to sell bikes. But in China, the supply is still not enough , I have to wait whole 2 months to get a falath pro frame. If someone desires a more mainstream brand's popular product (Giant TCR and Merida's 4000 let's say), then probably six months.
In the end, I'm just curious why the bike industry puts so much attention to western world, I understand people there earns more but moving product is more important at this point than high profit per bike.
With how heavily performance cycling is growing in East Asia and SE Asia, I would hope they expand there. Seems like Chinese brands are dominating there since Western brands are unwilling to take the plunge.
@@MrUltimatePCgamer Some brands are willing to begin their operation in China. Let's say Specialized and Trek, both of which have dealer's network and pricing for products is fair. But others like Shimano and Cervelo still depends on authorized distributors who then sell products to consumers. Problem is, distributors can jack up pricing and limit supply to make more profit. In Shimano's case, it basically means buying groupset from their distributors are more expensive than grey market parts. Other big names like Sram and campy , forget about them, one has a distributor who maybe out of business for a long while and the other is just not here.
i've just resigned to the fact that the world tour brands are too expensive. and even Giant who has some terrific value bikes, have to release the 5 digit priced products to be in line with their competitors. for someone like me who is just a weekend warrior rider, i can never justify paying the price of carbon bikes. just go aluminum and a lower group set, work on your fitness, ride hard.
When you can buy two dirt bikes for the price of one top tier road bike something is wrong. It would make sense for them to lower prices and gather more of the market........the real problem is these companies have become to FAT w/ staff and too greedy w/ profits, plan & simple.
The question maybe isn't for an S works. What about Expert or similar versions?
The problem is not the bike prices / components, i think is ok , actualy is pretty good compare to old days if we factor in the new technology put in the bike industry , basically we are gettin more bang for buck , but unfortunatly we are living a time with very high cost of living that is cuting into are discretionary spending in this case extra money or savings to buy bike stuff wich is not a necessity and on top of that if you want to finance it, rates are insane, so this mean there is no money left at the end of day...High Housing +High energy +High food = No Money for bikes stuff...
Top tier bike prices are not expensive they are stupidly unjustifiably expensive. To say that all things getting expensive as an excuse to justify bike prices being through the roof expensive is an industry cop out.
But you are talking about high end models, the mid tier level its the one thats gone way too expensive. I bought a litespeed c3 with aluminum wheels and 11 speed 105 for $1500 in 2016, my 2020 trek emonda was $3300 with aluminum wheels and 105 11 speed hyd. The mid tier level 105/rival builds its ridiculously expensive now
GC great review as always
One of the points that I feel all UA-cam reviewers don’t seem to be talking about is the once in a generational demand boom is over it will probably take another Covid like event for demand to be seen at the levels we saw during Covid .
You’re talking about innovation and evolution of the bikes and components from 10 to 12 years ago, but real elephants in room is demand .
yes this is the truth the main reason for these prices is "demand" everyone wanted bikes, price goes up.... simple
Bikes were overpriced even before covid.
That Dunn guy was one of the elites (a New Zealander, not American, to be clear) who overpays for what he buys and then complains when the prices go higher. Fairly ridiculous for him to complain. I responded to his video, saying when I compared a $4K Trek to a $2K Aventon that has better everything than the Trek, I bought the Aventon. That is the only way to get prices back to something reasonable. Dunn doesn't probably get that concept. Inflation is NOT inevitable. Pay attention to history, and study what happens to economies that overheat. The Roaring 20's became the Great Drepression. We are repeating that history right now, because kids in schools didn't pay attention, and they'll get what's coming to them.
Dude this isn't going to age well. We all know that corporate greed us out of control they are using the business moel "We will raise prices until customers stop buying" and now they are paying the price for that behavior
yea I mean I make some takes and this is how I see it
In summer 2019 i bought a Trek Fuel Ex 9.8 - carbon frame (alloy rear tri), carbon wheels, carbon bars, Sram GX eagle, Fox performance Elite shock/fork. Retail was $5500.
Today i just purchased a Spec. Stumpjumper Expert which is more or less equivilent build level (some parts better, some lower) for $6000. Yea its still alot for most people but $500 increase over 4 years considering the last 3 years I don't think is that ridiculous.
I totaly agree with you. I found my dream mtb for 2800€ now with all these discounts and you realy get a lot for that money. I remember in 2018 when I was buying a bike it was 3500€ with smaller dropper, smaller wheels, smaller size, 2x10 drivetrain and fcked up geo...
In 1998 i bought a team spec downhill MTB, full suss, twin crown forks, disc brakes, XTR, the works. It cost me £2500. Adjusted for inflation thats £4600 today.
£4600 buys you a lower mid-range bike in that category now.
A top spec mtb now is at least twice that. Something is broken in the industry.
Predicting market demand is frigging hard. There was a market "bubble" during the pandemic. Now it has burst. This is more or less the same thing that has happened in other markets over the years.
Is 105 and 105 equipped bikes a similar situation? I feel like people used to call the group set of the people but I think its moved away from that.
Here is the problem with bikes. I have a 40 year old Falcon, a 30 year old Bottecchia, a 20 year old Softride, a 10 year old Fuji, and a 1 year old Framed Titanium gravel bike. Can I tell the difference? Yes. Is the difference significant? No. Are the newer bikes faster, or more comfortable? No. So why would anyone spend 3k - 15k on a new bike?
Anyone saying the price of bikes hasnt gone up, isn't paying attention. In 1999 you could buy a made in america full suspension frame with full XTR, chris king hubs and headset, made in american stem and seatpost, etc for around $4,000. Today you could buy a full suspension bike with XTR for maybe $7000 or so - but it's all made in China! To make the same bike in the US would cost atleast 30% more. We've moved all production offshore to save on cost - and we haven't saved anything. Cost remains the same, while the US has lost manufacturing jobs. Real wages and buying power has fallen. So has the price of bikes remained the same? Sure - but it's not the same bike.
Ummm??? Yup. Great bikes, but many cities have bike shares; many places are designed for car-dependent only areas; and recreational cycling is limited because people are working more hours to afford the typical cost of living, in my opinion.